Mini 905- Mafia in Sienna OVER


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Post Post #204 (isolation #0) » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:19 am

Post by Ythill »

Hello everyone. I'm replacing into two games at once, so please forgive if it takes me a day or two to get everyone's names straight. I'm posting in this one first because Thesp + Oman + CTD demands special treatment. :)

Thesp, I will try not to tard out in the late-game this time. I've played a few endgames since that one you hammered me in and am markedly less spastic now (I hope).

Anyway... I skimmed this thread last night and am wondering why the Leafy wagon isn't bigger. I'll post a case sometime this weekend but for now I see nothing wrong with marking my suspicions with a
vote: Leafy
.

Kitten isn't looking golden either, and their fight reeks of distancing. Budja I don't see so much as scum at this point, but it could be that he/she was under my radar during the skim. Anyway, I don't see enough to help you out there, Thesp. More commentary later...
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #205 (isolation #1) » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:08 am

Post by Ythill »

As promised...

It starts out with overactiveness in the pre-game and RVS, demonstrating that Leaf was chomping at the bit to play.
In #54, Leaf wrote:
Thesp wrote:Leafsnail, can you PM your scumbuddies and let them know we've started?
Uh... actually, looking at the OP, rule 6 implies that even the mafia members cannot communicate with each other at all.
Mod: Can the mafia members talk to each other? If so, how?
Most people read the rules during the confirm phase, especially if they are bored and bit-chomping like Leaf was. If they have questions, they ask them then, either by PM or in-thread. Of course, a scum isn't going to read nighttalk rules very carefully at that point, because his role PM contains a more detailed version.

When a townie reads Thesp's question they're going to catch the context and realize that "can" means "could." They're either going to post a joke response or state something bland like "Sorry, I'm not scum." If one of the mafia reads this question, he is more likely to see "can" as "do you have the ability to" because he's being paranoid. If he's worthy of his pinstriped suit, he's going to check back and look at the rules again to remind himself what the public knows about such things, and answer accordingly.

In posting his answer, that scum is probably going to realize something along the lines of "if I show that I don't know this, it suggests I'm town" and a question to the mod is posted as a smokescreen. Later, he says that, if he were scum, he'd have PMed the mod but that begs several questions. Why not, instead, point out that the scum surely were told their powers in their role PMs, unless he thought that might bring unwanted questions about how he knows or why he asked an obvious question? Why PM the mod as scum but not as town? Why that second skim of the rules in reference to Thesp's question?

Earliest scumslip I've seen. Go Thesp.
In # 74, Leaf wrote:Ellibereth, you've once again failed to answer my question, and have instead just thrown a vote my way. Perhaps you could at least explain why you find me suspicious, or who else you find suspicious?
First, nitpicking Elli was not needed. She was clearly joking and stirring the pot. Second, her vote was obviously OMGUS and I think Leaf is sharp enough to know that. So this is more pointless nitpicking. Granted, it's early.
In #77, Leaf wrote:Also, what makes you think there are two mafia members?
Really? Reaching suspicions based on the fact that he said "partner" instead of "partners"?

In #89, Leaf reverses his position on Elli with no explicit reason (he does come up with one later, when questioned, but flip flops on it). Elli has only made a one-word post between his last attack and this dismissal but two things of note have happened. One player has voted Leaf saying that Elli doesn't look like scum and pman (a potential buddy) has both defended leaf and condemned Elli (which might have inspired distancing). Furthermore, as is pointed out later, this post gives early reads on most players but leaves out Oman, Thesp, CTD, and Sotty. Who ignores veteran players? Scum.

#93 he pokes at Elli again, whom he is supposedly leaning town on.

#146 seriously looks like scum damage control: add the neglected players to the notes, pointlessly link to a bunch of games in response to someone else that did the same, post some slippery OMGUS defenses. This is also where he gives reasoning for his Elli-town read. It's very iffy and laden with qualifiers, which means it's easy to go back on if he needs to.

The next few posts contain a lot of deflection defense. Then he gets in the squabble with kitten, which, like I said, seems very disingenuous to me, like two buddies having at it. This is solidified in #186, where he questions Elli (who he's reading as town) for voting kitten (who he's currently voting) while, in the same breath, asking Thesp to speak out against the kitten wagon. I don't see why a townie would act this way at all.

Leaf, care to comment?
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #220 (isolation #2) » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:02 am

Post by Ythill »

I'm going to try (and probably fail) to be brief. I'm glad to hear I'm not convincing people to hop on Leaf just yet. I'm still in the information-gathering phase of my game. I plan to poke Leaf with a stick for a bit and, in the not too distant future, do a deeper read of the game.
Oman wrote:Can you quote or link to those specific posts. I'm looking for a new wagon and I'll take yours if you can convince me.
Are you talking to me?
Wick wrote:What night talk rules?
Whatever night talk rules. In this case, the lack of them. Are you paying attention? :P
Wick wrote:
Ythill wrote:The next few posts contain a lot of deflection defense.
Examples?
No problem. From #149: "It's easy enough to criticize someone for leaving a couple of people off his list, and a lot harder to try and look at everyone yourself." and "Although, if you have a problem with his playstyle, why aren't you addressing your qualms to him?" (The last one was a response to MME having a problem with Leaf's read on Thesp). Also in #151: "And if you think CTD is so worthy of attention... well, why aren't you paying him any?" (please see post for context) and "and are asking me why I've overlooked things you haven't done anything about yourself."
kitten wrote:
Ythill wrote:Then he gets in the squabble with kitten, which, like I said, seems very disingenuous to me, like two buddies having at it.
Is there anything else that's making you feel this way? Because I've been pushing Leaf since my first non-random vote post, so this feels like a really weird stance to have to me.
I have not yet read you in iso but will certainly do so before making any direct accusations against you. The timing of your attacks has nothing to do with it, but the content of them seems forced and does not match the tone. Furthermore (and more importantly in the context of my case), Leaf seems more aggressive and less forgiving with you than with Elli. Often times I find that scum will hold back with townies in case they need to defend them later, but will be more aggressive with distancing/bussing. Of course I could be wrong here but time will tell.

@ Leaf:
I'm not buying that your read on Elli was based on the questions you asked, because he didn't answer any between the two reads, and because you already said it was for different reasons, which makes this another slip. I don't believe that you can't tell who the veterans are, when some of them have obvious special titles and post counts are easy to find. As for the scum-chat slip, of course a townie wouldn't know exactly what's in the scum role PM but, unless he's never been scum, anyone should know what's typical. The rest of your defense on that point doesn't add up either.

If #77 was a parody of Con (which is plausible), why didn't you tell him that when he seemed to take you seriously in #79?

Don't strawman me about the kitten wagon. Agreement =/= town but the agreement was coming from a player you had been calling town for awhile. And see for yourself what I found iffy about the read on Elli (bold added for emphasis):
In #146, Leaf wrote:
Something about the way
he isn't rushing to defend his actions and cover himself up.
I dunno, it's just a slight lean
from past experience.

(additional text removed by Ythill, obv)

Ellibereth - Frustratingly unhelpful, but that doesn't make him scum, and I'm not into policy lynches.
Something
about him reminds me of useless town,
but I'm not entirely sure
yet.
Overall, I find the tone of your defense vs. me to be null/acceptable but that against budj to be a little too slimey. What are your current reads on the two of us (and why)?
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #236 (isolation #3) » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:05 am

Post by Ythill »

Leaf wrote:I'm getting tired of discussing this...
It's okay, we don't need to go round and round at this point. Some of what you said makes sense, some of it seems like backpedalling. Suffice to say you're still my PE#1 and my vote is staying put unless I find someone more suspicious, but I'll let you out of the hotseat for now because I need to check out the other players.
Kitten wrote:I was getting pretty discouraged when no one seemed to be seeing what I was seeing and I wasn't quite sure how to explain a lot of it. Could that be what you were seeing?
Not sure at this point. I'll keep that in mind when I pick through your posts, which I should have time to do later tonight.

A note about my schedule: Tuesdays and Wednesdays are generally pretty busy for me. In many cases, I will have very limited time for the game on those days. I'll still check in, but don't expect the usual heavy content from me.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #266 (isolation #4) » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:23 am

Post by Ythill »

I've reread kitten in iso and there isn't much of a individual case on her. There are three things that bothered me, two of which can be accounted for by the "defensive playstyle" Oman mentioned. Meanwhile, I see an early towntell. I like the info that's come off of her wagon but I have no intention of lynching her at this point.

@Oman:
When you mentioned kitten's "defensive playstyle" were you only talking about this game or the one she played in that you modded?
kitten wrote:I was getting pretty discouraged when no one seemed to be seeing what I was seeing and I wasn't quite sure how to explain a lot of it. Could that be what you were seeing?
I see that, but it's not exactly what I was talking about. You seem very serious and intent on explaining yourself but to those of us who understood you the first time, the case still doesn't add up to much. Anyway... explicitly yes or no, do you think shameless bandwagoning is a scumtell?
Wick wrote:..which doesn't even seem relevant to the case, so I am curious as to why you brought it up.
I'm sorry, I'm really not sure what you're asking. I said that scum was more likley to skim over night-talk rules than town, because scum commonly have a more detailed ruleset for the night phase. So when asked about the night phase, a good scum player will go back and check the rules to see what a townie should know. Understand?
Ythill, can you give your opinion of Oman please?
There's not much of one to give. He's been jumping around a bit, clamoring about information, and playing the veteran card. Nothing out of the ordinary for him. The timing of his kitten jump was intriguing.

Anyway, recent developments have given us an opportunity for good information. I want competing wagons betwen kitten and Elli. Hence my
unvote; vote Ellibereth.


On a side note, CTD's latest push seems suspicious: premature and overblown. I think I'll include him in the next round of iso reads.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #283 (isolation #5) » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:28 am

Post by Ythill »

I hope you're not talking about me, I just replaced in to two games and would like to get a handle on this one before we lynch. Me being a hippie has nothing to do with it. :D

I think having these two wagons for awhile will be worth the wait.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #291 (isolation #6) » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:24 am

Post by Ythill »

@ Oman:
Told you so.
Wick wrote:Ellibereth - Despite him not contributing much, I actually have a strong town read on him. I dislike the size of his bandwagon also because I don't understand any of the reasons for it.
Even though I haven't done my Elli iso-read yet, I can give you three. (1) I don't understand how his "joke" is funny, but I do understand how it acts as calculated WIFOM after he flips scum. (2) The blatant rolefishing is scummy or, at the very least, extremely anti-town. It also suggests that kitten is town. (3) He's playing like a BM alt, which means that he needs to die before LYLO anyway.

I'll try to do some more catching up today but no promises. Rest assured that I'll be ready to lynch soon.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #295 (isolation #7) » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:22 pm

Post by Ythill »

I looked back over Elli and CTD. Elli's "joke" was a lot worse than I picked up on the skim and there is some
very mild
buddying in addition to what I already posted, otherwise it's as I stated. CTD looks squeaky-clean except that one post where he pushes kitten with the list.

@ CTD:
Why six points on your list? by my count there was only 3 (1-3 were the same thing, 5-6 too) and #4 is very vague. Were you intentionally trying to fluff up the case?
Oman wrote:How could I be so stupid? If Elli is scum with kitten is suggests really inappropriate distancing, or that kitten is town... Proper etiquette says kitten hangs, and elli is just running bad play.
Etiquette? Really?

The only claim we are risking is Elli's. If he claims power and is town, I'd gladly trade him for the townie among you/me/CTD/Thesp that will die in his place. If he claims power and is scum, none of the four veterans listed are going to counter-claim and even if someone else does, we are trading less-experienced power for an IC's life. Besides, with Elli explicitly wagoning for roles, don't you think he's a similar risk to town power if left alive? It's not much of a trade. Meanwhile, he's scummier than kitten and more dangerous even if they're both town.

Your lack of insight is uncharacteristic. Is that what an Oman scum-slip looks like?
Note this for future reference, peeps.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #297 (isolation #8) » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:20 am

Post by Ythill »

MOD: I changed my vote to Ellibereth in #266.


heh thanks, fixed now.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #311 (isolation #9) » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:17 pm

Post by Ythill »

Wick needs to take a seat in the hotseat if Elli flips scum. Otherwise, I'm open to look into pman more closely tomorrow. Two wagons is enough for today.
Leaf wrote:I feel that Kitten has been let of the hook for not doing anything in particular.
I was never interested in a kitten lynch although I did let you off the hook to pursue Elli. Are you going to complain about that?

Appeal to emotion noted... and Elli is obviously not a n00b. I can't even fathom why you'd say such a thing as town. Which people do you feel were being opportunist?

Please nobody hammer before kitten posts.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #317 (isolation #10) » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:03 am

Post by Ythill »

Sorry Wick, I did comment but it was very brief. I think the case makes sense to a certain degree and the first point is very valid, but you slipped in a lot of null points, semantics, and rhetoric. If you're really 95% sure he's scum, then you're seriously overreacting.

The reason I questioned your link to Elli in #311 was more for timing than content, FYI.
Record:
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Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #325 (isolation #11) » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:12 am

Post by Ythill »

CTD, are you going to answer my questions?
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #342 (isolation #12) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:57 am

Post by Ythill »

Been reading...

Sotty and Thesp are probably town.

Oman I'm a little concerned about but not very. Pman got on the kitten wagon a little dirty and off worse, but I got a town read on him from another post. Budja's hammer seemed brash enough to be okay, if you don't mind overlooking his stated town read on elli, but other than that I just see a lurker. I'm still waiting on CTD to answer some questions. I'm keeping these four at null.

Kitten has, ironically, moved up my scum list. Her fail-to-vote-elli post was exactly the sort of scummy waffling and staling I was looking for when I asked for the hammer to be delayed.

Leaf is still on the list but has been bumped down for several reasons. My notes contain a few more suspicions that came up after my initial attack against him and his tunnelling on kitten could go either way, but I think my time is best spent elsewhere at the moment.

Wick, however, has taken the cake. I gave him kind of a free ride yesterday but rereading him was very interesting. There was a lot of waffling, throwing about suspicions, and questions that never lead to conclusions, like he was trying to look like a good scumhunter. I didn't like the tone of his L-1 kitten unvote or the way he kept himself "busy" while keeping clear of the elli wagon.

vote: Wickedestjr
for now.

I am open to hearing argument on the budja situation.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #346 (isolation #13) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:41 am

Post by Ythill »

@ Sotty:
I may be onboard with a kitten lynch later but I'd like to see what else we can shake loose first. If we hang her too early and she flips town, we'll be seriously hurting for good information. You do make a very good point about scum not risking themselves to swap between vanillas, but the kitten wagon was also fast-growing with no good reason. Combined, these points suggest that Leaf and/or CTD are scum, more likely the former.
Oman wrote:
Ythill wrote:Oman I'm a little concerned about but not very.
can I set your mind at ease?
I doubt it. Mostly, it's that I didn't like your offhand reaction when I suggested that your late realization about elli-->kitten was a scumslip, or the way your wagon hop posts were serialized afterwards, but none of it is very concrete. Your playstyle makes you dangerous as scum so maybe I'm being a little extra paranoid. Why are you voting Wick?
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #350 (isolation #14) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:45 pm

Post by Ythill »

Regarding Wick, Oman wrote:...has dodged comment on the two major wagons for the most part.
It's worse than that. He called all of them (including Leaf) town in #289, same post as his pman vote. That seems odd to me, a player with no inside information should have been entertaining suspicion on at least one of them, especially considering the three choices and their interactions with each other.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #355 (isolation #15) » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:13 am

Post by Ythill »

Hi Moriarty. Thanks for replacing.
pman wrote:I don't view it as any different from the other votes.
How do you view the other votes? Also, paranoid much? If you have non-OMGUS reasons for voting Wick, state them and climb aboard.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #358 (isolation #16) » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:32 am

Post by Ythill »

CTD wrote:Anything else?
Not at the moment. I'm looking forward to you commenting on Wick, once you get around to it.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #368 (isolation #17) » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:14 pm

Post by Ythill »

Oman wrote:Wicked wagon needs more votes. That could pick up posting.
This.

Really, what I want is for Wick to respond to the votes on him.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #375 (isolation #18) » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:51 am

Post by Ythill »

Wick wrote:Can you please show me the null points, semantics, and rhetoric?
I'm sorry, but no. I'm not going to pick through that WOW again. If you want to bring up a few select points from it and have me address them more specifically, I will.
Ythill wrote: Kitten has, ironically, moved up my scum list. Her fail-to-vote-elli post was exactly the sort of scummy waffling and staling I was looking for when I asked for the hammer to be delayed.
Why?
IME, scum do not like to hammer in the spotlight. However, if she was scum, that hammer saved her so she wanted it to happen real bad.
Ythill wrote:Wick, however, has taken the cake. I gave him kind of a free ride yesterday but rereading him was very interesting. 1: There was a lot of waffling, 2: throwing about suspicions, and 3: questions that never lead to conclusions, like he was trying to look like a good scumhunter. I didn't like the tone of his L-1 kitten unvote or the way he 4: kept himself "busy" while keeping clear of the elli wagon.

1: What?
2: Really? Examples? Why is that scummy anyway?
3: Examples?
4: Can you elaborate on this point?
FTR, I seriously dislike your style of defending. You have said nothing and simply asked me to post more. I'll humor you this time, but I'd suggest actually posting a defense if you're town. Anyway...

1: You suspected Leaf at first but then gave him the pass because kitten was scummier but kept questioning him for awhile. Then you posted a calculated lean towards kitten-town but never really turned back on Leaf. And you just generally seemed wishy-washy with your PoV until your post on pman.

2: In #153 you state or suggest suspicion of seven players, in #168 you call out two new people for lurking. You appear to suspect five people in #201, one of whom was previously unmentioned. I find this scummy for two reasons. First, while most townies focus a little more on their most plausible theories, scum have more to gain from mud-slinging. Second, some of your suspicions seemed mutually exclusive, meaning that (for example) if you suspected that Elli and Leaf were buddies, why would you also find kitten scummy?

3. Circular questioing of Leaf, sking Thesp about his anti-RVS questions, asking for details about my mention of the night talk rules, and about Kitten's stance on RVS connections between CTD and MME. You ended the day with only one serious suspect, whom you asked one rhetorical question of. If questions were your method of scumhunting, probably you'd have been suspecting other people.

4. Sure. Basically, your most poigniant remarks in this game are where you jumped off the kitten wagon, when you called all of the lead wagons town, and when you posted a WOW case against a player who obviously wasn't going to be lynched while the rest of the town was discussing competing wagons. For the most part, your tone makes you seem hesitant or cautious, but you seem very un-hesitant about making sure you're not involved in a D1 lynch.
Oman is in scum mostly because I get the vibe he is not contributing much but trying to appear like he is. I'd have to pinpoint where I get that feeling though.
OMGUS? I'd like to read your response to Oman's points.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #381 (isolation #19) » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:48 am

Post by Ythill »

Mori wrote:K4U is Town and Elli turned out to be Town as well, so if he was Scum, why would he try to start a THIRD WAGON when he has his choice of "delicious Townie" or "delicious Townie" to lynch?
I don't agree with you about kitten but, even if you're right, there's a perfectly good explanation. He didn't want to be involved in a D1 mislynch (which may suggest buddies on the wagons). Do you think Wick expected the pman wagon to lead to a lynch? If not, why would he make that case and vote as town?
Mori wrote:I see no reason for Ythill to want competing K4U and Elli wagons...
Really? At the time, most of the players had commented explicitly on Elli's alignment, kitten's, or both and the post that looked like Elli rolefishing kitten was a dynamic turn that was sure to adjust the viewpoints of townies. I figured that providing competing wagons between them would give us a lot of info about who had views that shifted with the evidence and who was jockeying. Look at your own conclusions: how many of them are based on those competing wagons?

I find your conjecture about how scum would act on those wagons to be intriguing. I've disliked some things about each of Leaf, Oman, and CTD so far but I've found Leaf to be the worst of the three by a long shot. I'd probably agree with you more about Oman, but he seems to have his head (and vote) in the right place today. And it creeps me out a little that the three stubborn wagoners are
all
in your most suspicious pool. I mean, sure it makes sense that scum would act that way, but I doubt they were acting in concert.

The way I see it, there was probably one scum on kitten 'til the end (Leaf), and one that didn't get involved at all (Wick). I might see the third scum on Elli but, with the way he was acting and the way the thread was rallying against more wagons, his
might
have been all town (plus Kitten's pre-hammer post really set off my radar).
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Post Post #385 (isolation #20) » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:11 am

Post by Ythill »

LOLing @ myself. I was tired and a little drunk when I made last night's post. Can you tell I'd forgotten who Mori replaced?
Mori wrote:I've heard this line of reasoning before multiple times and every time I honestly think it's rather daft...
Then you're honestly wrong. IME, there's usually at least one scum avoiding the lead wagons D1, clumsily or otherwise. In the real world, a lot of players tunnel on vote counts and wagons in the early game, not being on them can be a good thing. You argue optimal play (as if we know Wick to be an optimal player) but neglect to mention that optimal play for scum is to spread out. Also, he was on one of the wagons: yours. But at L-1 he jumped off like his pants were on fire.

Why am I having this discussion with you and not him?

FTR, Moriarty's moving into that special susupicious-across-replacements place in my mind. I'm glad I forgot who she was for a minute: it's given me perspective.
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Post Post #387 (isolation #21) » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:56 am

Post by Ythill »

Oman wrote:Confirm what this means?
It means I have been suspicious of kitten today, and now her replacement is making me suspicious as well. Which was magnified when I momentarily forgot that Mori replaced Kitten. Anyway, the reason I came back so quick is because I made a realization...
In #378, Oman wrote:I am just gonna say that a Kitten/Wicked scumteam is looking pretty likely.
Then, in #382, Mori posts an emotionally charged, ancedote-based defense of Wick. Seem townie? Not to me.

Q. How do we create a four-vote wagon and make Thesp complain?
A.
unvote, vote Moriarty147
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Post Post #389 (isolation #22) » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:28 am

Post by Ythill »

Yessir. CTD will be #4 (at least).
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Post Post #397 (isolation #23) » Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:18 pm

Post by Ythill »

To Mori, Leaf wrote:The problem is more that you are almost certainly scum.
Why aren't you voting her?
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Post Post #409 (isolation #24) » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:54 am

Post by Ythill »

Wick wrote:What is the purpose of staying out of the discussion anyway? It certainly doesn't help me any. And if you say it helps because I'd be flying under the radar, than you are wrong, because my out of the blue vote only attracted lots of attention. That was the reaction I was expecting.
This from the guy who made several mentions of bandwagoning as a scumtell and apologetically called Elli town for "non-contribution"? Perhaps you did believe it would gain you
attention
but, going by what you think is scummy, you obviously didn't think it would warrant
suspicion
.

I don't think the pman case was a calculated move anyway, so I'm not looking for optimal scum-play. I think the strategic unvote got you unexpected suspicion and then several vocal players started talking about gaining information from current wagons. They were not being specific about what they were looking for, so you were concerned about getting back on one of the wagons, but you also knew that doing nothing was going to look bad, so you picked a name and put up a case.
Wick wrote:What's wrong with not sharing suspicions with the rest of the town?
Generally? Nothing. In this case, however, I think it suggests you have inside information for three reasons. First, you suspected all three of them strongly at some point, voting Leaf and Kitten, and even going so far as calling Elli and Leaf buddies early in the day. I know that opinions can change but the reasons you give for clearing them in #289 don't seem like enough. Kitten, whom you had voted all the way to L-1, is cleared because of a large wagon and 1/2 post?

Secondly, your pman case, though visually long, doesn't really have much meat in it. It's fluffy. I don't see that as a problem by itself (it was only D1), but when combined with the strange town reads and the timing, it holds an internal contradiction: if that case was
really
enough to convince you pman is scum, then I don't see how you don't also suspect at least one of Leaf, Kitten, or Elli.

Finally, the three players in question were acting scummy
toward each other
. Kitten had those weak yet aggressive attacks against Leaf and some questionable behavior towards Elli, Leaf was OMGUS tunnelling excessively on Kitten and had the flip-flop read on Elli, Elli had baseless attacks on the other two and rolefished kitten. My point here is that if a person with no inside information was to gain a solid town read on one of these players, I'd expect that person to at least be entertaining suspicion on the others. Instead, you boldly called all three town.
Wick wrote:Also, CTD brings up a good point regarding Thesp. He usually figures out some of the scum, but I don't think he's right about any of his suspects.
No, actually he doesn't. Calling someone scum for being wrong on D1 is complete crap. Even the best players are wrong sometimes, especially in the early game. I've been mislynched by Thesp-town late game. The only reason I didn't call CTD out on this was because it didn't seem to be the heart of his accusation. What he actually said was that Thesp mislynched while agreeing with the lynchee, and I see that as a valid point. You have taken it in an entirely different direction. Just another log on the fire.
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Post Post #410 (isolation #25) » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:07 pm

Post by Ythill »

Crosspost with pman...

It looks like the Wick wagon might gain some steam after all. To clarify my current views: Mori acting scummy across replacements has moved her into my #2 spot. I really don't care if we hang her or Wick today, but I'd like to get an actual wagon on one of them.

I'm going to wait on Mori for awhile but, if the Wick wagon grows, y'all can expect me to jump on.
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Post Post #415 (isolation #26) » Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:32 am

Post by Ythill »

Wick wrote:...until you give those examples, I have no way of defending myself against that accusation.
It wasn't an accusation, just my opinion of your case, which you asked for. At that point I hadn't given you a lot of attention and I didn't suspect you yet.
Wick wrote:I don't understand then. Why does that mean she moved up your scum list?
I already explained this. She was stating heavy suspicion of Elli, had the chance to hammer, and didn't. She was pushing his lynch but didn't follow through, demonstrating that she wanted the death but not the credit for it.
Wick wrote:2a: Umm... No I don't.

2b: All I said was that I wanted to hear more from them. I didn't accuse either of them of lurking. This is a misrep.

2c: Alright, I think I may be seeing the trend. Are you saying me asking questions is throwing about suspicions? I can only see myself suspecting one person in that post.
Obscure wording FTW. Either you were scumhunting with these questions/statements or you were not. If you were, then they were indicitive of your suspicions and they were too wide-ranging (and dropped too quickly) to be real. If you were not, why so much fluff?
Wick wrote:3g: Many/most of the questions I asked were designed to understand the PoV of the person the question was directed at.
Exactly my point: questions that don't lead to conclusions. Posts that make you seem invested in the game but actually don't lead anywhere because, as scum, you lack townie curiosity.
Wick wrote:No. Not OMGUS. I gave Oman an FoS for performing an example of this way before Oman even suspected me. If anybody is guilty of OMGUS in this situation, it's him.
Hillarious. I guess nobody told you how I feel about OMGUS. Although it tends to invalidate a case, it usually comes from townies.
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Post Post #419 (isolation #27) » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:52 am

Post by Ythill »

Goodposting from Leaf.

Oman, what's with the pom-pom's? It's starting to seriously creep me out.
Ythill wrote:We seem unwilling to give attention to people who aren't posting.
Meh. I'm giving attention where my suspicions lie. If you think it's warranted somewhere else, I'm all ears. On that note...
Regarding Budja, Thesp wrote:What did you think of what he said when he placed his vote?
"Not fully convinced but certainly a better lynch than kitten," could be construed as scummy, but I think it can be read either way. "If Elli is town, I'd be inclined to think of Wick as town too," is the most suspicious thing he said in that post. It pretended to agree with me but was a misrep (what I said was that Wick was likley scum if Elli was, not the other way around). Also, if Budja is scum with Wick, he knew Elli to be town, so the statement reads as manipulative from that perspective.

I hope I'm not ruining a trap by answering this before pman.
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Post Post #423 (isolation #28) » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:08 am

Post by Ythill »

Wick wrote:After seeing Kitten's comment, I realized I found her scummier, and realized I was wrong about Leaf. Not once did I suspect both of them.
Wick wrote:This was because I wasn't going to just let Leaf off the hook because I found a new suspect.
???

unvote; vote Wickedestjr


The Mori wagon isn't moving, I'm putting my vote back on my lead suspect. The rest of you should either vote one of them or get yourselves organized somewhere else.
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Post Post #435 (isolation #29) » Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:27 pm

Post by Ythill »

Sorry, limited time today and I wasted it in GD. I'll try to get a post up later this evening.
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Post Post #437 (isolation #30) » Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:57 pm

Post by Ythill »

Thesp wrote:People who are posting less than others are getting slides, which encourages lurking and will kill us if we let it. We don't seem to be approaching non-contribution as scummy, and that's bad.
I'm usually okay with a D2 lurker hunt if things are slow in general and I was about to offer my vote for that but, now that Wick's getting some pressure, I'm going to stay where I'm at. Maybe be more aggressive with the prod requests?
Wick wrote:First of all, how would it be a good move for me to switch my vote as scum?
My current theory is you didn't want to bus your buddy on D1. Or it could be that you played up the hammer-shyness against the wrong player list and then couldn't get back on without hammering her yourself. I don't know your actual motivations, but it doesn't seem like you had honest townie motivations, which is all that really matters.
where did I say I thought Ellibereth was town for
non-contribution?
#289: "His non-contribution is something I've seen town do more often than scum." Stop making me look stuff up.
Town attacking eachother is a common thing.
Strawman. The only attacks I listed were qualified as scummy attacks, and I mentioned other stuff like role-fishing and a flip-flop read.

A little of what you said actually makes sense. Not enough to clear you in my eyes, but at least you know I'm reading with an open mind. Since people obviously understand my vote and some have joined me, I'm going to simmer this argument down a little and let others have the floor. I'd also be interested in an updated summary of your reads when you have a minute.

That's four votes on the wagon, Oman's will make it L-1. Hint hint.
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Post Post #445 (isolation #31) » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:12 pm

Post by Ythill »

@ Fate:
If your read is that scum are sitting back and letting townies vote themselves, why are you voting someone who is on the lead wagon? Also, please elaborate on what you said about Leaf.

Mental note. Fate's entrance kinda creeps me out. He understated the Wick case and jumped right on the only opposing wagon that is not himself.
Wick wrote:I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying here.
Think real hard.
1: Why do all questions have to lead to conclusions?

2: There isn't really anyway I can defend against this.

3: How do I lack townie curiosity?
1: Why do you keep strawmanning me?

2: The truth is like that.

3: See above. Way to throw away your recently gained credibility points, BTW.
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Post Post #453 (isolation #32) » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:39 pm

Post by Ythill »

I agree with the people complaining about pman's speculation. I think it's true that VT's are more likely to flake, but not by enough that it sends a clear signal. Also, I think the timing of the flake-out can sometimes be indicitive of scum, but that the timing in these instances was null.
Fate wrote:@Ythill: My read isn't that scum are sitting back and doing nothing. It is just that they are being very "unproductive."
OIC. What you said was, "My read in this game is that the scum are sitting back and letting town lynch themselves." I might have taken you too literally but I'm going to keep this discrepeancy in mind.
IIoA noted. I wasn't going to jump on my own bandwagon, and I don't think wicked is scum. If the votals are right, Pman's wagon is only 2 votes right now, but it was the best option out of all those I suspected.
Fair enough. Tangential question: what does the extra "I" mean in IIoA?
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Post Post #456 (isolation #33) » Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:57 pm

Post by Ythill »

pman wrote:I read that as tan genital question
Tan genital question: do you want to go to the nude beach? :P

Oman, why no vote on Wick?
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Post Post #463 (isolation #34) » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:11 am

Post by Ythill »

Wickedestjr wrote:
Ythill wrote:
Wick wrote:After seeing Kitten's comment, I realized I found her scummier, and realized I was wrong about Leaf. Not once did I suspect both of them.
Wick wrote:This was because I wasn't going to just let Leaf off the hook because I found a new suspect.
???
Oh. Sorry. The first quote should be "...and realized I might be wrong about Leaf."

...But I would have still wanted him to defend against the accusation even if I thought he was the towniest person in the game. There's no reason for him not to.
:roll: What should "not once did I suspect both of them" have been?
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Post Post #466 (isolation #35) » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:38 pm

Post by Ythill »

Heh. My other game is over so this one gets my full attention for now. Replaced into that one as VT in LYLO, won before endgame. :)

Anyway, seconding the claim request...
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Post Post #469 (isolation #36) » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:58 pm

Post by Ythill »

Fate, once Wick claims, I'd be open to hearing more detail about what's bothering you about Thesp. He doesn't seem scummy to me but a fair number of people are twigging on him.
Fate wrote:IIoA=Information instead of analysis. Maybe I have the acronym wrong.
Meh. It's IoA (Information over Analysis) on the wiki. Leaf said the same thing about me, but it's null. In my first games I posted a lot of analysis but my posts were too long and bad for sig:noise so I trimmed them down across my meta. If you've got an honest question about how I reached a conclusion (rather than circle-questioning like Leaf), I'll answer it.
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Post Post #483 (isolation #37) » Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:39 am

Post by Ythill »

Heh. I was going to apologize for not checking in yesterday, but it looks like not much has happened here. My access might be a little spotty in the near future, but I should be able to keep up.
To Wick, Fate wrote:Need more time to think about the best fakeclaim?
More likley he needs less time between fake-claim and deadline.
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Post Post #487 (isolation #38) » Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:39 pm

Post by Ythill »

I go out to a coffee shop to get on the internet, and this is all I find? Blech.
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Post Post #505 (isolation #39) » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:25 pm

Post by Ythill »

Oman wrote:Vig is a dangerous claim. If he's lying and there is a vig, he dies tonight.
Why do you consider it dangerous in a game with only one NK? From mafia's PoV, the lack of a second kill suggests that there is no vig/SK even more heavily than it does for town.

If Wick is the vig, why did he need to post a huge case that was never going to get anyone lynched? He wouldn't feel such an intense need to sway the town if he had a town kill of his own. He's asking us to believe that his crap case not only found scum, but made them so nervous that he was roleblocked? If scum were that nervous about Wicked, why not just kill him? If they were that accurate at sniffing out power roles, why did MME die?

The unifying answer is that Wicked is lying. My vote stays.
Wick wrote:1: I was one of the first few that voted her and I would like to say I was a big force contributing to the bandwagon growing even if I didn't intend for it to. Was I not bussing her then?
No, that would be distancing. Bussing requires a lynch.
2: Hammer-shyness? I was already on the bandwagon wasn't I?
And you jumped off @ L-1 saying, "I'm not comfortable with her being that close to a lynch right now..." Playing up hammer shyness.
Okay, well I still wasn't convinced then. Also, you say you are keeping an open mind in this same post yet jump right to the conclusion that this is a strawman. Can you explain?
What is there to explain? The statement was a blatant strawman. Keeping an open mind is not the same as wearing blinders. It's the opposite actually.

I'm noting that you've resorted to semantics.
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Post Post #520 (isolation #40) » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:48 am

Post by Ythill »

I'll try to get a reread in over the next few days as well. The last two cardflips have left me a little confused so I need to get oriented again.

Thesp, of your two suspects, why did you choose to vote Fate?
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Post Post #525 (isolation #41) » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:51 am

Post by Ythill »

I've finished rereading and it seems my stance is going to change today. First let me explain my confusion. I was convinced that Wick was mafia and had some preconceptions that were shaken by his SK flip. Then, overnight, I got to thinking about Oman's behavior and really not liking it, so I decided that if I was alive this morning I was going to grill him first thing. I guess I should thank the scum for saving me the trouble. Anyway, the open-minded reread has adjusted my point of view...

Thesp seems even townier than before. I plan on cooperating with him for the next day or two. Fate's distancing accusation is funny.

Sotty, due to lurkiness, has slipped to null. CTD is still null. Leaf had a few more minor things that raised my eyebrows, but he also has a lot of goodposting yesterday, particularly at the end of the day, and I'm going to move him up to null as well. Due to the strength of my reads on the other three, I am not willing to lynch any of the players listed above.

Mori still looks scummy to me for the same reasons and seriously needs to start posting.
Mod: if appropriate due to lack of posting over two day phases, please prod Moriarty. If not, please prod him as soon as it becomes appropriate.


I don't think that pman failing to die says much about his alignment. However, I do see him doing a scummy amount of flip-flopping on his Fate-read and being more concerned about his own survival than examining Wick's claim. Additionally, there are earlier points that seem to connect him to Mori.

Though I don't have much problem with the play of his predecessors, Fate's behavior at the end of yesterday looked scummy. He was never very suspicious of Wick and seemed to believe the claim so it came as a shock to me when he cited agreement with a minor point and voted Wick to L-1. Also, the "two scum" slip in #76 becomes more important after a SK flip.

Offhand, I think a quick wagon to claim on either pman or Fate would be the town's best course of action. With no town power flips and no danger of LYLO, it seems like we should keep the chatting to a minimum and just take care of business today. Pman wagon seems easier to start with because of wide support, but the fervor has me concerned that we might be too rash with the hammer. So let's not be too rash, mkay?

vote: pman5595
That's L-2.
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Scum 4W/1L
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Post Post #530 (isolation #42) » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:26 am

Post by Ythill »

pman wrote:The only reason that people have posted against me today is that I didn't die night one.
Lies.
pman wrote:Sorta
FoS: Ythill
for wanting to keep the day short with little discussion.
Sorta? Kinda timid for townie OMGUS, huh? I believe short with little discussion is best for town today and I've said why. If you have questions about my belief, ask them. If you disagree with it, state your argument. Dropping a D3 Fos for an unstated theory disagreement isn't exactly pro-town.
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Post Post #531 (isolation #43) » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:34 am

Post by Ythill »

Cross-post.
Fate wrote:@Ythill: Me believing Wick and then subsequently changing to vote him doesn't explain much.
It reads a lot dirtier than that. You didn't just believe Wick, you seemed convinced. And I don't see Leaf's conjecture about RBs being nearly enough to change your mind. If/when I move my vote to you, I'll quote the posts. For now, I'm happy with you voting your buddy.
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Post Post #535 (isolation #44) » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:55 pm

Post by Ythill »

All of your D2 play makes sense as scum-play. You will lose this argument. Fortunately for you, I'm interested in focusing on pman for the moment.
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Post Post #536 (isolation #45) » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:58 pm

Post by Ythill »

Oooops cross-post again. That last bit was directed at Fate, obv.

Pman claim please.
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Post Post #544 (isolation #46) » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:25 pm

Post by Ythill »

OMG you guys! He put his claim in green! That means he's town! Seriously though, it's funny that you posted that appeal to emotion with the caps and everything but then didn't consider that someone that upset probably wouldn't use color tags.
pman wrote:THIS IS WHY I HATE QUICK WAGONS.
Quick? People have been suspecting you for two days. If we hadn't caught the SK, you probably would have been lynched yesterday.
pman wrote:Night 2 I chose not to use my action, thinking the chance of jailkeeping a town power role was too likely
LOLOL. I absolutely love the way our D1 slant against VT claims has motivated the scum to make bad fakeclaims. I'll have to remember that for future games.
pman wrote:it's called reverse psychology people.
I call it clumsy lying.

I am also comfortable with a hammer. Thesp?
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Post Post #545 (isolation #47) » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:13 pm

Post by Ythill »

Just because I was double checking our work and I like to add fuel to the fire...
pman wrote:Night 1 I jailkept Wickedestjr, thinking scum would try to kill him and blame it on me.
If you wanted to protect him from the mafia, then you must have thought he wasn't mafia himself. Yet your first post of D2 tells an entirly different story...
In #352, pman wrote:yeah, I don't like wicked either, but I'm not going to vote him because all I would get is OMGUS thrown at me
You go on to explain the reasons for your suspicion in #407 and
every one of them
occured before N1. So did you think Wick was mafia? Or did you think that the mafia were going to kill him? Ooops.

You have two options left, pman. You can expand your lies to include some GF theory about two scum groups and thereby talk yourself in more circles and reveal your buddies to us. Or you can self-hammer to end the day before you get them killed too. Choose wisely.
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Post Post #548 (isolation #48) » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:20 am

Post by Ythill »

Thesp wrote:...looks like we can get him tomorrow.
Maybe. I like a Mori lynch too. But I'd rather not plan ahead either way. A couple games ago, I lost as town because I got too tunneled and mislynched BM in endgame even though the other player was starting to look scummy. It taught me a valuable lesson about keeping an open mind.
pman wrote:first

rereading Oman's posts.
pman wrote:I have to leave soon but should have a case up tonight.
Oh, the broken promises. Pman, if you are not going to suicide-vote, then it is your sacred duty to keep pretending you are town. Which means posting the results of your Oman-read and the case you mentioned. Wouldn't a townie in your shoes want to make sure that his voice is heard after his innevitable card flip? And you're a good enough liar that we won't use what you post to identify your buddies. No, really.
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Post Post #553 (isolation #49) » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:06 pm

Post by Ythill »

pman wrote:I love how you think thesp is the one worthy of hammering a jailkeeper.
It has nothing to do with a jailkeeper. Or with Thesp being worthy of anything. You're one of his lead suspects and nobody has unvoted. Therefore, he will probably be the one to hammer you.

But really, I don't think anybody is interested in your backpedaling and appeals. If you really want to pretend you're town for a minute, we can indulge you. Post that case you promised.
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Post Post #557 (isolation #50) » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:25 pm

Post by Ythill »

pman wrote:I know, But I HATE this "Your scum but do what I say anyway. Then I'll hammer you" attitude from Ythill.
You are and we will. None of that is my fault. Besides, what does my attitude have to do with your play?

I think I gave you fair options. Either hammer yourself or keep up the charade. You opted for the latter, which is much better for the town, so I'm happy that you did. If you have any follow-through at all, use your last few hours to post that case you promised, and stop making excuses. In that hypothetical world where you could be town, couldn't I be scum trying to silence you?
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Newbie 1L


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Post Post #558 (isolation #51) » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:01 pm

Post by Ythill »

"The Kübler-Ross model, commonly known as the
five stages of grief
, was first introduced by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross in her 1969 book, On Death and Dying. It describes, in five discrete stages, a process by which people deal with grief and tragedy, especially when diagnosed with a terminal illness or catastrophic loss."
pman wrote:I used color tags (and to thesp, the word "town") because that is how it appears in my role pm.
Denial.
pman wrote:I HATE this
Anger.
pman wrote:If you would actually consider the fact that you are hammering town, then yes, I will post the case.
Bargaining.
pman wrote:what's the point
Depression.

The only one left is Acceptance. :D
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Post Post #568 (isolation #52) » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:30 am

Post by Ythill »

Thesp wrote:This is clearly the best post in the whole game.
I couldn't resist. He called me a bad psychologist.

But I was hoping I could shake him up enough to make more slips. Oh well. Goodnight.
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Post Post #573 (isolation #53) » Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:04 am

Post by Ythill »

Bah. Get us the win, town!
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Post Post #670 (isolation #54) » Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:59 pm

Post by Ythill »

LOL. I called Thesp obv-town and had a town read on Sotty. Well played.

I was NKed shortly after being the only one who was not committing to a next day Fate lynch. After that, I was pretty sure Fate was town and I was cursing up a storm when he got lynched. But, in hindsight, I wouldn't have done even worse because I would have been all about lynching Leaf. The scum definately deserved this win.
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Post Post #675 (isolation #55) » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:45 pm

Post by Ythill »

In the QT, Sotty wrote:I also wouldn't be against a Ythill simply because he is a good player.
And LOLing @ Thesp thinking I was the JK. :)

The one place where this scum-win hinged on bad townie play was on the day after I died. It was quite obviously MYLO. Why the hell didn't someone suggest mass claim?
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Post Post #678 (isolation #56) » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:03 pm

Post by Ythill »

Sotty wrote:...and were pretty lucky to off the SK as quick as we did.
Hey. Finding the SK wasn't luck.
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Post Post #687 (isolation #57) » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:23 am

Post by Ythill »

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Post Post #696 (isolation #58) » Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:36 pm

Post by Ythill »

Leaf wrote: Best post in the game was:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 92#2116892

by the way.
:D Thanks. It made me grin when I thought of it. Bandwagon-driving is certainly my best townie skill, but my scumhunting isn't great so I normally try to find a good townie like Thesp (oops) to cooperate with.

I'm proud to have drawn two doc protects, the SK kill, and a mafia kill. Though absorbing the doc protect as a VT isn't good, it demonstrates that my meta is going in the direction I've been trying to take it: dynamic and obv-town. The only problem with it is when I get assigned a third-party role.

Is anybody going to 2nd the nomination I made?
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Post Post #703 (isolation #59) » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:11 am

Post by Ythill »

No problem, Sotty. You earned it.
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Post Post #705 (isolation #60) » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:28 am

Post by Ythill »

Leaf wrote:Also, Ythill - if you think someone's scum, they're probably the doc, right?
What, are you a MafiaSSK alt? You know though, I do have a bad habit of mislynching the doc. I wonder why.
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