Mini 905- Mafia in Sienna OVER

[Wickedestjr]

/confirm

I'm glad this game started the day after I signed up for it. That was very convenient.

[Wickedestjr]

Wickedestjr, how many scumpartners do you have?

I didn't think I was scum this game. *checks role pm* Yep, I'm
town-alligned.

RVS is over, as of now. If anyone "random" votes, I will stab them in the eye. Then I will vote for them and I may not leave from my vote for the day until they are lynched from the neck.

This seems contradictory to the fact that you still feel the need to ask these random questions:

Jase, do you enjoy having town roles or scum roles more? On an unrelated note, are you happy?
ConfidAnon, are you scum? If not, why are you lying?
Leafsnail, can you PM your scumbuddies and let them know we've started?
pman5595, why'd you do it?
My Milked Eek, how scummy do you think you'll be this game?
Kitten4u, how much have you played mafia in real life? What's one of your real life tells?
Wickedestjr, how many scumpartners do you have?
Oman, do you find happiness in receiving role PMs? Were you happy when you got your role PM for this game?
Sotty7, what's the best method for catching scum?
CrashTextDummie, how good do you think you are at online mafia?
Ellibereth, do you think lurking is a scumtell?

Firstly, what was the purpose of these questions?
Secondly, if we were out of the RVS when you made your post, then why didn't you make any serious comments?

So, if it was, in fact, a joke, what were you hoping to gain out of it?

What reactions were you looking for?

What was the purpose of the question in red, if the question in green pretty much gives Ellibereth a hint? Also, as for the green question, what told you Ellibereth was looking for reactions? I looked through his posts and I see nothing that indicates that. Those two questions were pointless. Also, it sort of looks like you are trying to help Ellibereth in a subtle manner.

Vote: Leafsnail

[Wickedestjr]

What was the purpose of the question in red, if the question in green pretty much gives Ellibereth a hint? Also, as for the green question, what told you Ellibereth was looking for reactions? I looked through his posts and I see nothing that indicates that. Those two questions were pointless. Also, it sort of looks like you are trying to help Ellibereth in a subtle manner.

1: Asking questions such as these allows you to look for inconsistency of motive, a powerful scumtell. Often it's not necessarily what people do but how they explain it afterwards that shows their true colours.

2: As for the second question... well, I didn't want him to just post a vague "Looking for reactions" and have done with. It wasn't meant to be a hint, but a possible follow up question.

1: So you were trying to catch Ellibereth contradicting himself?

2: This doesn't make sense to me. How did you even know if Ellibereth was looking for reactions or not? Also, if I interprated both parts of this post correctly, then you have contradicted your self.

Are you saying they are linked then?

They might be. If I was correct about Leaf's motive for asking the second question, then yes they are linked.

That honor goes to Leafsnail who has yet to take a single stance on anything.

That's interesting. Have Thesp, CrashTextDummie, or Ellibereth taken any stance prior to this vote? It also just so happens that out of the several players who haven't taken a stance on anything, you vote for the one with the largest bandwagon! What a coincidence!

What gave you the impression that they were random?

They weren't relevant to anything going on in the game.

Vote: Wickedestjr

just a gut feeling

Hypocrite?

Also, not on topic, but, Wicked, is that one game you've won as town the one I lost as mafia? ;_;

Yeah. The one where town had a huge advantage and I got lynched day 1. (if it hadn't been for the town's advantage, it would have been another loss).

Then he also tries to tie Elli and Leaf together with some weak distancing call. Not buying it.

It wasn't distancing, it looked to me like Leaf might have been trying to help Ellibereth.

[Wickedestjr]

As I said, just a possible followup question. It seemed like the most likely thng for him to be doing.

Then what was the point of the first question? In other words, if you had only asked the first question, what purpose would it have served? If you thought that he was looking for reactions then it seems wierd that you'd feel the need to ask that first question.

Where?

First you say you are trying to see if Ellibereth's responses are inconsistent and you also say that the second question is just a possible follow-up question. The way you said "just a possible follow-up question" seemed to me like it wasn't really that important of a question. Also, you claim that the most likely reason for Ellibereth's behavior was to get reactions yet ask him why he acted that way? It doesn't make sense to me.


Will make another post in a few minutes.

[Wickedestjr]

1.) I call Thesp out in the same post.
2.) CTD had the "I don't like MME" stance.
3.) Elli had voted for Leafy before I posted.

So with the exception of Thesp, whom I also call out in the same post, yes, everyone else had taken at least once stance imo.

1.) Okay, but why do you choose Leaf instead?
2.) Were you happy with that RVS stance?
3.) Were you happy with that "gut" influenced stance?

Also, what do you consider to be a stance? What kind of stances would you be happy with?


Also...

Unvote: Leafsnail Vote: Kitten4u

. I dislike the reasons for her vote. She votes Leafsnail for not taking any stances when we were about 70 posts into the game and we were just getting out of the RVS imo. Also there were a few other players who she could have voted for similar reasons. It also just so happens that Leaf had the largest bandwagon at the time of her vote.

I am not as suspicious of Leaf as I was before because I don't see Kitten and Leaf being partners and I think Kitten is more suspicious, but I would still like responses to my questions from Leaf.

I also like the suspicions of ConfidAnon, would like to hear more from CTD and want to see a post from Jase.

[Wickedestjr]

I apologize for being inactive, I spent all my time catching up in my other game. I should be able to make a post tomorrow though.

[Wickedestjr]

@Kitten4u in post 170 - Do you believe that CTD's RVS stance connected him to MME at all? Also, if you actually noticed that Thesp had also not taken any stances, then why didn't you say why you found Leaf more suspicious when you voted him?

I disagree - they help me get a feel on players in the game.

Did the RVS not give you this information? Why?

Oman, what do you think of pman and Leaf?

To be at my most truthful: I think pman would give us a lot of info if he had a wagon put on him, as per the last game. I think it would be a good way to glean some good info (although for most people we seem beyond that stage of the game).

As for leaf, I don't get the scum read. I'll re-read him and his accusers and let you know my adjudication at this time. But from what I've seen, nothing has actually stunned me as either worth chasing him over, or worth pointing fingers at his attackers. Not worth asking for a summary right now, but I do think it looks like an early game wagon, which I'm cool with. If people know when to abandon it or not, that will tell me more.

FoS: Oman

I thought it was the most likely, and best for a followup, although it wasn't the only reason, as Ellibereth later demonstrated .

I'm sorry, but I'm still not getting it:

1.) Why did you ask Ellibereth about her behavior if you already assumed he was doing it to get reactions?

2.) What do you think is the purpose of asking a follow-up question?

The wagon on you wasn't going to happen.

Are you saying that you are only voting Kitten because she has a bandwagon?

[Wickedestjr]

Inconsistencies. Overexplanation. Overdefensiveness. Vagueness. Refusal to answer. Panic. The prescence or abscence of these things can tell you a lot. Note that these aren't all necessarily scumtells. Other than this... you haven't really asked any questions or made any kind of enquiries in that post. Why? Who's scum?

What have the answers to your questions told you so far?

[Wickedestjr]

Thesp, why are you suspicious of Ellibereth?

Most people read the rules during the confirm phase, especially if they are bored and bit-chomping like Leaf was. If they have questions, they ask them then, either by PM or in-thread. Of course, a scum isn't going to read nighttalk rules very carefully at that point, because his role PM contains a more detailed version.

What night talk rules?

The next few posts contain a lot of deflection defense.

Examples?


Overall, I like Ythill, but the case isn't convincing me.


@Leaf:

I'm sorry, but I'm still not getting it:

1.) Why did you ask Ellibereth about her behavior if you already assumed he was doing it to get reactions?

2.) What do you think is the purpose of asking a follow-up question?

3.) What specifically has given you your town read on Ellibereth?

^ I get the feeling Kitten doesn't believe in her attack.

Where?


Also, Kitten, in addition to responding to my previous post, please also respond to this:

She votes Leafsnail for not taking any stances when we were about 70 posts into the game and we were just getting out of the RVS imo.

[Wickedestjr]

I see that Kitten is at L-1:

Unvote

. I'm not comfortable with her being that close to a lynch right now when we are about a week into the game and several players need to speak more.

Gonna start catching up now.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: I find the size of the wagon to be a bit unsettling.

[Wickedestjr]

Oman, what do you think of pman and Leaf?

To be at my most truthful: I think pman would give us a lot of info if he had a wagon put on him, as per the last game. I think it would be a good way to glean some good info (although for most people we seem beyond that stage of the game).

As for leaf, I don't get the scum read. I'll re-read him and his accusers and let you know my adjudication at this time. But from what I've seen, nothing has actually stunned me as either worth chasing him over, or worth pointing fingers at his attackers. Not worth asking for a summary right now, but I do think it looks like an early game wagon, which I'm cool with. If people know when to abandon it or not, that will tell me more.

This hardly says anything.

@Leaf in 215- Okay, I get it now.

Kitten has explained herself enough to satisfy me even though I disagree with how early she voted Leaf.

Whatever night talk rules. In this case, the lack of them. Are you paying attention?

I am a bit confused about the first paragraph in your case then, because the only rule concerning the night phase is this:

11. Nights will last 72 hours. If you don't respond in that time no action will be taken. Do not talk at night unless your role permits it.

..which doesn't even seem relevant to the case, so I am curious as to why you brought it up.


Ythill, can you give your opinion of Oman please?

Ellibereth, do you take players interactions into account when trying to figure out who the scum are?

[Wickedestjr]

Unless something while I'm catching up makes me more suspicious, I think I like this alternative:

Vote: pman5595

After seeing Kitten's large post, I'm starting to get a strong town read on her. I'm glad she took the time to explain her thinking, because, while I don't agree with it, it makes sense.

I am so unhappy with every person that unvoted Kitten. I am so disappointed in everyone that doesn't have the guts to stay at L-1.

People like you are the reason mafia is becoming a stagnant festival of repeated words.

Okay..?

I'm sorry, I'm really not sure what you're asking. I said that scum was more likley to skim over night-talk rules than town, because scum commonly have a more detailed ruleset for the night phase. So when asked about the night phase, a good scum player will go back and check the rules to see what a townie should know. Understand?

Yes. Now I do. Sorry.

That is, when she is attacked, she doesn't defend herself so much as attack her attacker. It's this sense of "calling me scummy is a scumtell".

Examples?


Okay, I don't have time to finish catching up, but I should have more time in the next few days. Anyway, I currently dislike all of the three biggest bandwagons. (Leaf, Kitten, and Ellibereth)

Leaf - Several of the things he's getting attacked for are things that I've gotten attacked for in the past when I was town. Most of the other points aren't convincing either. When I was more inexperienced, I used to ask lots of question during the RVS similar to Leaf's so him doing the same thing doesn't bother me at all. After thinking it through, the only point I actually think may have merit is the one regarding the night talk rules now that I get it.

Kitten - I really liked the first part of her wall post. The bandwagon on her is also too large for my liking.

Ellibereth - Despite him not contributing much, I actually have a strong town read on him. I dislike the size of his bandwagon also because I don't understand any of the reasons for it. His non-contribution is something I've seen town do more often than scum. We also seem to have similar ideas on certain topics.


pman looks like the best lynch to me.

[Wickedestjr]

can you please explain your reasons?

Okay.

Firstly:

right now, no one strikes me as particularly scummy. It is only page 4, about 24 hours out of the RVS. But, if I had to lynch one person right now, it would be ConfidAnon. Something strikes me a little bit odd about how he attacked leaf for asking a question, and then saying we needed a bandwagon.

This seems rather convenient considering you had enough information to determine the case on Leaf was "complete crap" (Post 82) and that he was an innocent townie(Post 84). Its much easier to call somebody town then it is to call somebody scum.


Secondly:

It's not like any of us would let a lynch happen on Page 4, and he's nowhere close to a lynch.

Let's hope not. Why the bandwagon then?

This seems to contradict this:

Vote: My Milked Eek

*joins largest wagon in attempt to get us out of the RVS*

In the earlier quote you vote MME because you feel like wagoning to get out of the RVS, yet in the later quote, you seem to have a problem with a bandwagon that does form.


Thirdly:

I did not say asking the question made him pro-town. I said it did not make him scummy.

People were using that as a reason for their vote. I also did not say that asking the question means he is scum hunting.

I said I thought he was just taking it seriously and trying to hunt scum instead of joking around and doing nothing for the town

The bolded bit seems to contradictory with his previous posts. Earlier he said this:

How do you know Leaf is an innocent townie?

That's just my inference from his posts so far. He is just scumhunting.

So pman is of the belief that Leaf is scumhunting. However, pman's post where he says this, Leaf had only asked questions. If you don't believe me, look at Leaf in iso. His first 9 posts came before pman explained his town read. So, this indicates that pman either thinks asking questions is scumhunting which contradicts the bolded in the post above, or he is just making stuff up which means he's scum.


Fourthly:

Vote: Ellibereth

You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.

If you aren't joking around... then my vote should really stay on you.

This just looks to me like a useless vote. He even tells Ellibereth what to do to make him unvote, so it doesn't look to me like a good example of a pressure vote. Also, the interesting thing is that if Ellibereth had stopped joking around, then pman would have unvoted. So, this implies that he wasn't actually suspicious, because if he thought Ellibereth's joking was scummy, then Ellibereth's joking coming to an end wouldn't be a good reason for townpman to unvote. So, if it is not a pressure vote and not a vote to represent a suspicion, it just looks like a vote designed to appear useful. It was a good move for pmanscum, because it allows him to:

*appear useful by trying to make Ellibereth contribute
*puts him in a position to either be suspicious of Ellibereth or not suspicious of Ellibereth, whenever he gets a good idea about what the town thinks


I'm not finished with this case.

[Wickedestjr]

Continuing on...

Point 5:

EBWOP: sorry here's what I was trying to submit

Gut should never be the only reason to think someone is mafia. If you cannot find any actual evidence that they are mafia, you should not target them

Bullshit

Vote: Ellibereth

You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.

If you aren't joking around... then my vote should really stay on you.

I'm not joking.

then tell me your reasoning of the leafsnail vote. Please include something other than "gut".

pman says if Ellibereth wasn't joking then his vote should really stay on him. However, when Ellibereth says he wasn't joking, pman seems to give Ellibereth an opening to escape from the vote by making the above post.


Point 6:

Pman, I'M NOT JOKING.
And the original reason for your vote in 102 was because you thought I was joking, correct?

No, it was because you were (and are) acting stupidly. If the acting stupid was a joke, I would unvote when you stop. But you say the acting stupid is not a joke. That is an even better reason to vote for you. Give me good reasons that you are voting for leafsnail, or unvote if you cannot find any.

No, you did say you were voting Ellibereth for joking in these quotes:

You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.

If I could vote for you twice I would.

WE ARE OUT OF THE JOKING PERIOD

Stop contradicting yourself scum.


Point 7:

Pman, I'M NOT JOKING.
And the original reason for your vote in 102 was because you thought I was joking, correct?

No, it was because you were (and are) acting stupidly. If the acting stupid was a joke, I would unvote when you stop. But you say the acting stupid is not a joke. That is an even better reason to vote for you. Give me good reasons that you are voting for leafsnail, or unvote if you cannot find any.

What happened to voting only when you thought people were scum?

your unexplained targeting of leaf gives me extremely scummy vibes.

pman pulls this point out of nowhere to show that he was voting for Elli because he thought he was scum. However, like I pointed out in my previous post, pman was willing to unvote Elli if she stopped JOKING, so obviously it wasn't a vote because he thought Elli was scum.


Point 8:

Ok, so stupid = scummy according to you right now, correct?

it depends on how they are acting stupidly

if they are acting stupidly by voting for someone with no reasoning, yes.

Voting with no reasoning suddenly indicates stupidity now, so conveniently enough, he can no pretend as if it was a part of his case.


Point 9:

If nobody could tell, I was being extremely sarcastic with that vote and the comments afterward, and they were meant to show Elli how annoying what he is doing is. unvote: Wickedestjr

Oh! So now Elli's voting without reason is annoying! I thought it was stupid or scummy! I must've forgotten that annoying=stupid. Silly me. Also, despite Elli's joking continuing on, you don't return your vote to him. Interesting.


I am 95% sure that pman is scum and we should lynch him.

[Wickedestjr]

Continuing on...

Point 5:

EBWOP: sorry here's what I was trying to submit

Gut should never be the only reason to think someone is mafia. If you cannot find any actual evidence that they are mafia, you should not target them

Bullshit

Vote: Ellibereth

You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.

If you aren't joking around... then my vote should really stay on you.

I'm not joking.

then tell me your reasoning of the leafsnail vote. Please include something other than "gut".

pman says if Ellibereth wasn't joking then his vote should really stay on him. However, when Ellibereth says he wasn't joking, pman seems to give Ellibereth an opening to escape from the vote by making the above post.


Point 6:

Pman, I'M NOT JOKING.
And the original reason for your vote in 102 was because you thought I was joking, correct?

No, it was because you were (and are) acting stupidly. If the acting stupid was a joke, I would unvote when you stop. But you say the acting stupid is not a joke. That is an even better reason to vote for you. Give me good reasons that you are voting for leafsnail, or unvote if you cannot find any.

No, you did say you were voting Ellibereth for joking in these quotes:

You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.

If I could vote for you twice I would.

WE ARE OUT OF THE JOKING PERIOD

Stop contradicting yourself scum.


Point 7:

Pman, I'M NOT JOKING.
And the original reason for your vote in 102 was because you thought I was joking, correct?

No, it was because you were (and are) acting stupidly. If the acting stupid was a joke, I would unvote when you stop. But you say the acting stupid is not a joke. That is an even better reason to vote for you. Give me good reasons that you are voting for leafsnail, or unvote if you cannot find any.

What happened to voting only when you thought people were scum?

your unexplained targeting of leaf gives me extremely scummy vibes.

pman pulls this point out of nowhere to show that he was voting for Elli because he thought he was scum. However, like I pointed out in my previous post, pman was willing to unvote Elli if she stopped JOKING, so obviously it wasn't a vote because he thought Elli was scum.


Point 8:

Ok, so stupid = scummy according to you right now, correct?

it depends on how they are acting stupidly

if they are acting stupidly by voting for someone with no reasoning, yes.

Voting with no reasoning suddenly indicates stupidity now, so conveniently enough, he can no pretend as if it was a part of his case.


Point 9:

If nobody could tell, I was being extremely sarcastic with that vote and the comments afterward, and they were meant to show Elli how annoying what he is doing is. unvote: Wickedestjr

Oh! So now Elli's voting without reason is annoying! I thought it was stupid or scummy! I must've forgotten that annoying=stupid. Silly me. Also, despite Elli's joking continuing on, you don't return your vote to him. Interesting.


I am 95% sure that pman is scum and we should lynch him.

[Wickedestjr]

So... what do you guys think about the case? I skimmed through and only one person had commented.

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: pman

I'm still behind and plan to catch up soon. And to make matters worse,

Mod:

I will have limited access the next two or three days.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm back and catching up.

[Wickedestjr]

This feels very out of the blue. I just scanned through your posts and you call him a hypocrite once, but that's it.

You're right. It was out of the blue. I realized I hadn't been giving pman a good enough look and after reading him in iso decided he was extremely scummy looking. I honestly had no idea I was going to place my vote on him the morning of the day I did.

How? Do you have other examples? The only experience I recall with Ellibereth is very recent and very interrupted, but is extremely dissimilar to how he played when he was town.

My town read is mostly because of gut, but we seemed to be in agreement with a few things, for example, he thought Kitten was town around (maybe even before) I did. I also had trouble imagining him behaving the way he was as scum.

I think the case makes sense to a certain degree and the first point is very valid, but you slipped in a lot of null points, semantics, and rhetoric. If you're really 95% sure he's scum, then you're seriously overreacting.

Can you please show me the null points, semantics, and rhetoric?


@pman's response to my case: Point 1, I find it odd that you were so sure about Leaf being scum, but didn't have any idea about who was scum. You would have good reason to not look for scum as scum. That would be because you were scum. It's much easier to find townies, because you know who's town as scum.

Point 2, alright.

Point 3, alright.

Point 4, not alright. What was the purpose of your vote when Ellibereth said he wasn't joking? Seemed useless after that.

Kitten has, ironically, moved up my scum list. Her fail-to-vote-elli post was exactly the sort of scummy waffling and staling I was looking for when I asked for the hammer to be delayed.

Why?

Wick, however, has taken the cake. I gave him kind of a free ride yesterday but rereading him was very interesting. 1: There was a lot of waffling, 2: throwing about suspicions, and 3: questions that never lead to conclusions, like he was trying to look like a good scumhunter. I didn't like the tone of his L-1 kitten unvote or the way he 4: kept himself "busy" while keeping clear of the elli wagon.

1: What?
2: Really? Examples? Why is that scummy anyway?
3: Examples?
4: Can you elaborate on this point?


I'll try to finish catching up tomorrow. Sorry for falling behind. Here are my reads just so you know where I stand:


Town:

Leafsnail
CrashTextDummie
Kitten
Sotty7

Neutral:

Ythill
Budja


Scum:

Thesp
pman
Oman


The neutral players have done hardly anything townie, but haven't done anything scummy either.

Oman is in scum mostly because I get the vibe he is not contributing much but trying to appear like he is. I'd have to pinpoint where I get that feeling though. I may do so when I'm done catching.

I think Thesp may be scum, because he seems to be playing differently then he has in the past when he was town, and I also haven't really been impressed with any of his posts.

[Wickedestjr]

1: Wicked's pman vote feels specifically designed to keep him out of the discussion on other people. He's voting someone that no-one has really expressed an interest of lynching, and has dodged comment on the two major wagons for the most part.

2: He did vote leaf early, then jumped to kitten later. However, it seems like he didn't expect the growth of kittenwagon, and as soon as it hit L-1, he unvoted, jumped on pman and never got involved again. I would bet my house that if the wagon on pman had grown, he would have been off in a few seconds.

3: Basically, he seems to be coming up with reasons to justify his vote post-voting, not voting due to those reasons.

1: So, I have to agree with one of the more popular candidates? I don't think so. I'm looking for scum, not townies. What is the purpose of staying out of the discussion anyway? It certainly doesn't help me any. And if you say it helps because I'd be flying under the radar, than you are wrong, because my out of the blue vote only attracted lots of attention. That was the reaction I was expecting.

2: No. I voted Leaf for what I soon realized were bad reasons. Then I switched to Kitten, and it turns out it was just a disagreement and I started to get a town read from her defense, because she seemed to be actually trying. After that I noticed pman's scummy behavior and decided it was the best place for my vote.

3: What?

[Wickedestjr]

It's worse than that. He called all of them (including Leaf) town in #289, same post as his pman vote. That seems odd to me, a player with no inside information should have been entertaining suspicion on at least one of them, especially considering the three choices and their interactions with each other.

What's wrong with not sharing suspicions with the rest of the town? I'm sure I could show several games where the first few bandwagons of the game were all on town.

yeah, I don't like wicked either, but I'm not going to vote him because all I would get is OMGUS thrown at me :/

Um... What? Where did this come from? I had my vote on you before you expressed any kind of opinion on me. I don't see how anything else I do would be considered OMGUS.

[Wickedestjr]

I am sorry but I won't be able to finish catching up. I swear I am not lurking. I have just been extremely busy lately. Check out my other game and you'll see I'm catching up in it too. Also, CTD brings up a good point regarding Thesp. He usually figures out some of the scum, but I don't think he's right about any of his suspects.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm sorry, but no. I'm not going to pick through that WOW again. If you want to bring up a few select points from it and have me address them more specifically, I will.

1-3 examples for each would be good, but until you give those examples, I have no way of defending myself against that accusation.

Kitten has, ironically, moved up my scum list. Her fail-to-vote-elli post was exactly the sort of scummy waffling and staling I was looking for when I asked for the hammer to be delayed.

Why?

IME, scum do not like to hammer in the spotlight. However, if she was scum, that hammer saved her so she wanted it to happen real bad.

I don't understand then. Why does that mean she moved up your scum list? I would think the opposite would happen based on what you just said.

FTR, I seriously dislike your style of defending. You have said nothing and simply asked me to post more. I'll humor you this time, but I'd suggest actually posting a defense if you're town. Anyway...

I don't like having to defend that way either, but it is difficult to produce a good defense if I don't understand the case and the case has hardly any basis.

1a: You suspected Leaf at first but then gave him the pass because kitten was scummier but kept questioning him for awhile.
1b: Then you posted a calculated lean towards kitten-town but never really turned back on Leaf. 1c: And you just generally seemed wishy-washy with your PoV until your post on pman.

1a: I attacked Leaf and then Kitten attacked him also, but for different reasons. These were reasons I had problems with. I decided my original point against Leaf wasn't very strong, and a Kitten vote would be beneficial, so I voted her. Despite me getting a town read on Leaf after this due to gut and Kitten's vote, I wasn't going to let him off the hook. I thought following through with the attack would improve my read on him.

1b: From memory, Leaf actually defended himself to my satisfaction before I got a town read on Kitten.

1c: I don't see where you get this impression.

2a: In #153 you state or suggest suspicion of seven players, 2b: in #168 you call out two new people for lurking. 2c: You appear to suspect five people in #201, one of whom was previously unmentioned. I find this scummy for two reasons. 2d: First, while most townies focus a little more on their most plausible theories, scum have more to gain from mud-slinging. 2e: Second, some of your suspicions seemed mutually exclusive, meaning that (for example) if you suspected that Elli and Leaf were buddies, why would you also find kitten scummy?

2a: Umm... No I don't.

2b: All I said was that I wanted to hear more from them. I didn't accuse either of them of lurking. This is a misrep.

2c: Alright, I think I may be seeing the trend. Are you saying me asking questions is throwing about suspicions? I can only see myself suspecting one person in that post.

2d: I don't see anything wrong with mudslinging, (it is good to question people about things you have problems with, even if you don't suspect them) but I wasn't doing it anyway.

2e: When I voted Kitten, I specifically stated that I didn't find Leaf as scummy anymore. Any more examples?

3a: Circular questioing of Leaf, 3b: sking Thesp about his anti-RVS questions, 3c: asking for details about my mention of the night talk rules, and about 3d: Kitten's stance on RVS connections between CTD and MME. 3e: You ended the day with only one serious suspect, 3f: whom you asked one rhetorical question of. 3g: If questions were your method of scumhunting, probably you'd have been suspecting other people.

3a: Come again?

3b: Trying to get a better understanding of his motives.

3c: Trying to understand the case.

3d: She said she didn't like how Leaf hadn't taken a stance. I thought this was wierd because CTD had only taken an RVS stance, so I asked her what she though of that stance. She said it was fine because it connected him to MME. I didn't agree with that statement, but that would just turn into a useless semantics argument and I understood her PoV so I let it go eventually.

3e: The day ended too quickly for my liking. We lynched somebody who I thought would be town and I was just getting a grasp on things after I realized Kitten was probably town. I made my case on pman which took a long time and then shortly after the day ended. I didn't exactly have lots of time to give my suspects.

3f: I did?

3g: Many/most of the questions I asked were designed to understand the PoV of the person the question was directed at.

4. Sure. Basically, your most poigniant remarks in this game are where you jumped off the kitten wagon, when you called all of the lead wagons town, and when you posted a WOW case against a player who obviously wasn't going to be lynched while the rest of the town was discussing competing wagons. For the most part, your tone makes you seem hesitant or cautious, but you seem very un-hesitant about making sure you're not involved in a D1 lynch.

So I'm supposed to join one of the favorite candidates even if I think they're all townies? Also, keep in mind, I don't think I was the only one who suspected pman prior to my vote.

Oman is in scum mostly because I get the vibe he is not contributing much but trying to appear like he is. I'd have to pinpoint where I get that feeling though.

OMGUS?

No. Not OMGUS. I gave Oman an FoS for performing an example of this way before Oman even suspected me. If anybody is guilty of OMGUS in this situation, it's him. Lookie here:

Oman, what do you think of pman and Leaf?

To be at my most truthful: I think pman would give us a lot of info if he had a wagon put on him, as per the last game. I think it would be a good way to glean some good info (although for most people we seem beyond that stage of the game).

As for leaf, I don't get the scum read. I'll re-read him and his accusers and let you know my adjudication at this time. But from what I've seen, nothing has actually stunned me as either worth chasing him over, or worth pointing fingers at his attackers. Not worth asking for a summary right now, but I do think it looks like an early game wagon, which I'm cool with. If people know when to abandon it or not, that will tell me more.

FoS: Oman

Here I gave Oman an FoS because I felt he hardly said anything in that post and it felt like he was trying to appear more helpful than he actually was.

[Wickedestjr]

Thesp's post at the top of page 17 seems odd to me. I think I know why, but I'll need to take another look later.

65- Votes leafsnail with little reasoning. Only reason is that leaf is asking a question to Elli that is somehow scummy (?) I don't get this vote at all.

Leaf asked Ellibereth a question, and then asked another question that pretty much answered the first question. I voted him because the questions seemed useless. Why ask the first question if the second question you ask pretty much answers it?

seems to be tunneling leaf through next couple posts...

I'm not exactly sure if this is true or not, as I am too lazy to check, but, so what? IIoA BTW.

168- until he votes kitten, for, guess what? USING BAD REASONING TO VOTE LEAF. Oh the irony.

I am pretty sure I've explained this plenty of times. You must not be reading the thread. I'll humor you though. I voted Leaf. Kitten also voted Leaf. We were voting Leaf for different reasons? Just because we are both voting the same person doesn't mean we have to agree with each other's reasons, do we? I thought Kitten's reason for voting was odd because it could apply to several other players. My reason for voting wasn't. After seeing Kitten's comment, I realized I found her scummier, and realized I was wrong about Leaf. Not once did I suspect both of them. Yes, I didn't change my vote as soon as I saw the comment, but I did change when Kitten didn't defend herself to my satisfaction.

over next couple posts questions leaf while basically ignoring kitten, the person he is voting for.

This was because I wasn't going to just let Leaf off the hook because I found a new suspect. The only reason I wasn't paying attention to Kitten was because she wasn't posting. This was a well thought out case. IIoA BTW.

245- unvotes kitten at L-1. If you thought she was scum enough to vote her, there is no reason to unvote when she is about to get lynched.

Yeah there is. I got a town read on her around the time where she posted that huge WoT. Pardon me for trying to prevent a townie lynch. I'm not going to help you with your win condition. IIoA BTW.

289- votes me, and responds and asks questions to several other people but doesn't give a case on me at all until it is asked for.

I was waiting to see how people reacted to my vote. IIoA BTW.

his case is made up of saying I contradict myself in posts I didn't, and the whole spat with Ellibereth. I think it is a lot of waffling and trying to look helpful for town. Scummy.

Your opinion.

This whole case is IIoA. Aside from one point, he just makes statements without saying his feelings about them. Can we please lynch him?

[Wickedestjr]

This from the guy who made several mentions of bandwagoning as a scumtell and apologetically called Elli town for "non-contribution"? Perhaps you did believe it would gain you

attention

but, going by what you think is scummy, you obviously didn't think it would warrant

suspicion

.

I don't think the pman case was a calculated move anyway, so I'm not looking for optimal scum-play. I think the strategic unvote got you unexpected suspicion and then several vocal players started talking about gaining information from current wagons. They were not being specific about what they were looking for, so you were concerned about getting back on one of the wagons, but you also knew that doing nothing was going to look bad, so you picked a name and put up a case.

First of all, how would it be a good move for me to switch my vote as scum? It sure wouldn't be a good idea in terms of flying under the radar, because I was getting hardly any attention when I was voting Kitten.

Secondly, where did I say I thought Ellibereth was town for
non-contribution?

Generally? Nothing. In this case, however, I think it suggests you have inside information for three reasons. First, you suspected all three of them strongly at some point, voting Leaf and Kitten, and even going so far as calling Elli and Leaf buddies early in the day. I know that opinions can change but the reasons you give for clearing them in #289 don't seem like enough. Kitten, whom you had voted all the way to L-1, is cleared because of a large wagon and 1/2 post?

My very first suspicion in the game was Leaf because of a possible Leaf and Ellibereth connection. Sure I thought the points had merit, but 4 pages in the game, that wasn't a case I wasn't going to stick with forever unless nobody seemed scummier, or Leaf reacted strangely. However, the opposites of those two things occured. I got a new suspect (Kitten) and Leaf didn't react strangely to the accusation. It took him a day or two I think it was to convince me, but I eventually thought he was town based on his response. Another reason I voted him was to see how he would react so I could figure out if he was town or scum. I thought he was town and also thought Ellibereth was town based on his behavior later in the game. Kitten seemed scummier with her strange reasons for voting Leaf. I voted her for these reasons. She defended herself to my satisfaction. I have to say though that the day was cut short for me. I usually need about 20 pages at least to get a decent idea of who the scum were. That is why my suspects changed a lot day 1 and it is my town meta to do that. I can show you several games to prove it.

Secondly, your pman case, though visually long, doesn't really have much meat in it. It's fluffy. I don't see that as a problem by itself (it was only D1), but when combined with the strange town reads and the timing, it holds an internal contradiction: if that case was

really

enough to convince you pman is scum, then I don't see how you don't also suspect at least one of Leaf, Kitten, or Elli.

I don't think my case is fluffy. Also, I think the points I used against pman outweigh the points I used against the others. I voted Leaf for asking a question and then another question that answered the previous question. He said he was just using this as a follow-up question. I didn't think this was necessarily a smart idea, but I believed him. Inexperienced players can do strange things. I voted Kitten for voting Leaf for not taking a stance. This ended up turning into a semantics argument that was useless. It also turned out, she was just having trouble explaining her thinking. I believed her and thought that she was town afterward. I voted pman for contradicting himself and making untownlike descisions. There may be other points too, but those points alone are better than the points I used against Kitten and Leaf. And also, even if they weren't better, what does that matter? After they each defended themselves to my satisfaction, I had no points against them. Should I continue to vote for somebody I have no points against, or the person I do have points against?

Speaking of which, pman, if the rest of the points in my case are true, just say so. Until you actually defend against the rest of the points, I'm going to assume they are true and you are afraid to admit that.

Finally, the three players in question were acting scummy

toward each other

. Kitten had those weak yet aggressive attacks against Leaf and some questionable behavior towards Elli, Leaf was OMGUS tunnelling excessively on Kitten and had the flip-flop read on Elli, Elli had baseless attacks on the other two and rolefished kitten. My point here is that if a person with no inside information was to gain a solid town read on one of these players, I'd expect that person to at least be entertaining suspicion on the others. Instead, you boldly called all three town.

This is a bad point. Town attacking eachother is a common thing. It happens when scum are flying under the radar, which, in this case, they were.

No, actually he doesn't. Calling someone scum for being wrong on D1 is complete crap. Even the best players are wrong sometimes, especially in the early game. I've been mislynched by Thesp-town late game. The only reason I didn't call CTD out on this was because it didn't seem to be the heart of his accusation. What he actually said was that Thesp mislynched while agreeing with the lynchee, and I see that as a valid point. You have taken it in an entirely different direction. Just another log on the fire.

You are overreacting. I don't plan to vote Thesp for that, I am just saying it gives Thesp scum points in my mind. Chill out.

[Wickedestjr]

I am sorry but I won't be able to finish catching up. I swear I am not lurking. I have just been extremely busy lately. Check out my other game and you'll see I'm catching up in it too. Also, CTD brings up a good point regarding Thesp. He usually figures out some of the scum, but I don't think he's right about any of his suspects.

What games have you played with Thesp? CDT, same question to you to please.

I played with Thesp in Mafia Island which was a newbie game modded by Khelvaster, and I also played with him in Mafia at the Border which was also a newbie game modded by Khelvaster. I have also read large portions of Invitational 4 and Face to Face Mafia. Thesp happened to be in those.

[Wickedestjr]

Obscure wording FTW. Either you were scumhunting with these questions/statements or you were not.

If you were, then they were indicitive of your suspicions and they were too wide-ranging (and dropped too quickly) to be real.

If you were not, why so much fluff?

I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying here. Specifically, the bolded portion is the part I don't understand.

1: Exactly my point: questions that don't lead to conclusions. 2: Posts that make you seem invested in the game but actually don't lead anywhere because, 3: as scum, you lack townie curiosity.

1: Why do all questions have to lead to conclusions?

2: There isn't really anyway I can defend against this.

3: How do I lack townie curiosity?

Ugh. I hate running into this. Actually, the last time I ran into someone using this, scum was using it against me (and it was a game CTD was in).

Was the scum attacking you for this correct when they said you hadn't found any scum?

[Wickedestjr]

He's fine with going through attacks on him point by point, but doesn't seem to be making any of his own.

I've made my case against pman. Also, defending myself has consumed most of my online time.

[quote"Wicked"]1b: From memory, Leaf actually defended himself to my satisfaction before I got a town read on Kitten.

This is not true. You continued to push me over the night talk rules quite a while after you changed your vote away from me. The reason you gave was

I am not as suspicious of Leaf as I was before because I don't see Kitten and Leaf being partners and I think Kitten is more suspicious, but I would still like responses to my questions from Leaf.

Implying that you still thought I was scummy, but that Kitten was scummier, and I wasn't going to be her partner. It had nothing to do with my defending myself.[/quote]

What? I found you less scummy when Kitten voted you, but then you eventually defended yourself to my satisfaction. (That was when I stopped questioning the issue.) After that, Kitten convinced me she was town.

I also really don't like the way Wick is answering questions with questions and mildly counterattacking the asker.

Why?

Also, asking for the exact place to defend yourself is pretty scummy.

What?

[Wickedestjr]

After seeing Kitten's comment, I realized I found her scummier, and realized I was wrong about Leaf. Not once did I suspect both of them.

This was because I wasn't going to just let Leaf off the hook because I found a new suspect.

???

Oh. Sorry. The first quote should be "...and realized I might be wrong about Leaf."

...But I would have still wanted him to defend against the accusation even if I thought he was the towniest person in the game. There's no reason for him not to.

[Wickedestjr]

My very first suspicion in the game was Leaf because of a possible Leaf and Ellibereth connection. Sure I thought the points had merit, but 4 pages in the game, that wasn't a case I wasn't going to stick with forever unless nobody seemed scummier, or Leaf reacted strangely. However, the opposites of those two things occured. I got a new suspect (Kitten) and Leaf didn't react strangely to the accusation. It took him a day or two I think it was to convince me, but I eventually thought he was town based on his response.

I've already shown you that this isn't true. And you've ignored it. You voted Kitten because you thought she was scum and that made me town. And you continued to press me anyway. This segment is an outright lie.

Where exactly am I lying? Just because I think you are town doesn't mean I am supposed to let you off the hook. People make mistakes.

Another reason I voted him was to see how he would react so I could figure out if he was town or scum. I thought he was town and also thought Ellibereth was town based on his behavior later in the game. Kitten seemed scummier with her strange reasons for voting Leaf. I voted her for these reasons. She defended herself to my satisfaction.

1: Where? 2: And why did you chase her all the way to L-1?

1: What is this in reference too?

2: I didn't chase her to L-1. I was one of the first few people to vote her.

I have to say though that the day was cut short for me. I usually need about 20 pages at least to get a decent idea of who the scum were. That is why my suspects changed a lot day 1 and it is my town meta to do that. I can show you several games to prove it.

Meta based defence is null - any decent player can manipulate their town meta, especially if they are the one to bring it up. What is scummy is that you're trying to use it as a shield.[/quote]

This doesn't make sense. Let's say that there was a player who always lurked regardless of their allignment. Why would lurking in a game where their allignment was unknown mean that they were scum?

[Wickedestjr]

I am sorry but I won't be able to finish catching up. I swear I am not lurking. I have just been extremely busy lately. Check out my other game and you'll see I'm catching up in it too. Also, CTD brings up a good point regarding Thesp. He usually figures out some of the scum, but I don't think he's right about any of his suspects.

What games have you played with Thesp? CDT, same question to you to please.

I played with Thesp in Mafia Island which was a newbie game modded by Khelvaster, and I also played with him in Mafia at the Border which was also a newbie game modded by Khelvaster. I have also read large portions of Invitational 4 and Face to Face Mafia. Thesp happened to be in those.

1: Well the point here is both you and CTD have put Thesp up on this high level were he looks scummy if he doesn't break the game right away. It is an impossible high standard even for the best scum hunter.

2: I have played with Thesp twice. One game he was scum and was pretty active but the game was bogged down by less than fun players. The second game he was town and pretty lurky until the end. I haven't seen ThespTown bust open a whole or part of scum team. So if you have any links to show this, I'd like to see.

1: Thesp would've only had to suspect one or two people for me to forget about this point. I like how he suspects pman, so I don't put much merit in that point.

2: Well, in the first game I played with him, he had suspected both scum as early as day 1, but was fooled by bussing. (I think.) In the second game he had four/five suspects but he couldn't narrow it down, but I think both the scum were in that list. In Face to Face Mafia, he figured out one of the scum just a few pages into the game and seemed to have suspected the other two at other moments in time. In Invitational 4 I think he suspected 2/3 of the 5/6 scum.


Sorry for not posting much. I'm going to have limited access the next few days.

[Wickedestjr]

Okay. Sorry for not posting. I have been extremely busy the last few days. I claim vigilante. My kill didn't go through last night. I targetted pman.

[Wickedestjr]

My kill was blocked due to a protection or a roleblock. I think pman is scum and he or one of his buddies roleblocked me because of my suspicion of him.

Also, I should be giving this game more attention now because my other game just ended. I gave it a bit more attention because I was scum and it had been the first time in 10 games.

Will try to post some content tomorrow if I'm alive.

[Wickedestjr]

Firstly, I had a town read on CTD earlier, but his vote on me makes no sense considering he had been previously voting my number one suspect who suspects me.

First of all, how would it be a good move for me to switch my vote as scum?

1: My current theory is you didn't want to bus your buddy on D1. 2: Or it could be that you played up the hammer-shyness against the wrong player list and then couldn't get back on without hammering her yourself. I don't know your actual motivations, but it doesn't seem like you had honest townie motivations, which is all that really matters.

1: I was one of the first few that voted her and I would like to say I was a big force contributing to the bandwagon growing even if I didn't intend for it to. Was I not bussing her then?

2: Hammer-shyness? I was already on the bandwagon wasn't I? How can I hammer if I was already voting her? Am I missing something.

Town attacking eachother is a common thing.

Strawman. The only attacks I listed were qualified as scummy attacks, and I mentioned other stuff like role-fishing and a flip-flop read.

Okay, well I still wasn't convinced then. Also, you say you are keeping an open mind in this same post yet jump right to the conclusion that this is a strawman. Can you explain?


Will give this thread more time within the next few days. I'm keeping my vote on pman.

[Wickedestjr]

Well, looks like I was right about pman and Thesp.

Wickedestjr (SK)

Night1: Kill Ythill

what

what

He claimed to kill pman5595.

That filthy scum. I can't believe he lied to us.

At the end of day 1, I thought Ythill and pman were buddies because of Ythills reaction to my case on pman. I thought that Ythill would be a better kill, because firstly, the pman kill would've been connected to me, but the Ythill kill wouldn't have. Secondly, I knew I had a greater chance of getting a pman bandwagon going day 2. I wasn't intending to claim vig, but I was really busy around the time I had to claim, so I didn't have much time to think about it.


Congratulations to the mafia! Especially Sotty7. I actually had her as one of my strongest town reads.


And also, ftr, I was playing exactly the way I would as town, except a bit more cautious. I was trying to get rid of the mafia as soon as possible.


Thanks for modding Darkstrike!!

[Wickedestjr]

I think that the scum team were a strong one, perhaps the inclusion of a roleblocker was a mistake. However I think it was the skill of the scum, not the set-up, which decided the match. Pretty much all the town power roles were neutralised early on. I don't think CTD got a meaningful cop investigation the entire game one way or another.

I actually think the setup was a bit unbalanced against the mafia. I might've added a power role.