Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[MordyS]

It's not about your town read on archaebob. There were a couple individual posts that got my attention. But whatever. I feel really good about lynching archaebob. I can lay out whatever case I have against you tomorrow.

I'm kinda grinning ear-to-ear right now about putting that case together. Any chance archaebob logs on tomorrow, reads it, and just votes himself? It would be epic.

[MordyS]

(In the meantime, Sanjay, if you're awake, take a look at the thread I linked to. Since you thought maybe his scum meta might exonerate him, I wonder what you think about that particular section. Read that page and at least the next page too.)

[MordyS]

Actually, town just wants you to answer the questions. I don't really care who said it first. I'll be honest though, I'm losing patience. It's taking lots of selfcontrol not to just hammer you.

[MordyS]

Actually on further thought, archaebob is either scum or bad town. I really don't know why it's townie to wait days for his magnum opus. If he's town it'll be worthless because he sucks at being town. If he's scum, what will a longass post do? It won't illuminate his partner, it'll just obfuscate more. No, he's had days to respond and even when he was participating he dodged every question I asked. I'm done waiting.

unvote
vote: archaebob

I want to know if you're scum tonight. Not in 24 hours.

[MordyS]

He actually asked for an additional 24 hours over the day he already took. Answering bloody questions shouldn't take so long. Moreover I'm happy waiting to see how he flips before I come to any conclusion. Worse case scenario I just lynched someone anti-town. I'm perfectly okay with that.

[MordyS]

That wasn't the hammer? I'm pretty sure it was.

[MordyS]

Blah. Apparently I'm not the hammer. Lame. Well, whoever hammers has my blessing. I'm tired of archaebobs stalling. In fact, whoever hammers I'll happily take responsibility for the hammer.

[MordyS]

Who said sentimental? He's probscum and he's stalling the game. Let's get things on the move.

[MordyS]

Oh do you want me to unvote you'll vote And I'll hammer? I'm ok with that.

unvote

[MordyS]

vote: archaebob

so now that you're actually lynched, tell the truth. Are you scum?

[MordyS]

If you're really town, we'll have to talk after the game ends. You really need to l2p. I'll give some advice at that point that I hope you'll take to heart.

[MordyS]

Post your big ass post archaebob. You can say whatever you want now with impunity. You're already dead.

[MordyS]

Before twilight ends I want to remind everyone that we have an inspect that could clear/incriminate a player.

[MordyS]

Oh yeah. Cause I magically know the sanity of the cop.

[MordyS]

Archaebob, it is gonna be really embarassing for you when this game is over.

[MordyS]

I think Peanutman is absolutely a sane cop (doesn't make sense to have a godfather in the mix otherwise). We're going to have to NL tomorrow, but we might as well lynch the scum today.

Vote: Gammagooey

[MordyS]

Wait. There's 8 of us. We won't have to NL tomorrow. If we lynch Gammagooey today, that means we'll be in 6p with only 1 scum. That'll give us 1 Freelynch and 1 Nolynch before Lylo. (We can reverse the FL and NL if we wanna FL on 5 instead of on 6.) I say we lynch scum today.

[MordyS]

Debacle? Archaebob thought that Sanjay and I were a scumteam and was basically going to write a manifesto "proving" it. Obviously Gammagooey is scum (or very very very off chance Peanutman is scum). So Archaebob was totally wrong and was going to waste everyone's time and spam the thread with his nonsense. He's a poor player, and he could use to learn a little humility in his play. Maybe he'll take the chance to cool off and think about it. And btw: I was right. At least one scum player wasn't on the wagon. I really should just take a bow.

(And at the time I felt very good about his lynch. I turned out to be wrong, but that happens.)

[MordyS]

lol, obviously Peanutman's claim is the right one. Why else would there be a godfather in the game?

[MordyS]

So whatdya say? Can we lynch scum tonight?

[MordyS]

I reread some people last night after seeing the Gamma flip and I find Peanutman's last-minute case on Cruelty really convincing. Especially the fact that following the obvcop's investigation, Cruelty (and to a lesser extent Sanjay) seemed so resistant to the cop's finding. Especially since Cruelty + Sanjay weren't on the Gammagooey lynch. I could see either as stalling. (Especially since Sanjay's NL strategy could've easily been a 'scum regroup and discuss plans' strategy, and Cruelty just seemed very hesitant to deal with the entire thing at all.)

[MordyS]

Yeah. I noticed that.

[MordyS]

Cruelty voting pattern:

Post 0: vote: chinaman
Post 3: unvote
Post 9: vote: archaebob
Post 13: unvote, vote: foilist
Post 53: vote peanutman
Post 69: unvote
Post 73: vote: foilist

Sanjay voting pattern:

(Chinaman didn't vote, HoS'd Muffin twice.)
Post 26: vote: almasterGM
Post 48: vote: foilist13
Post 59: unvote
Post 66: vote: sociopath
Post 71: vote: peanutman
Post 74: unvote
Post 88: vote: peanutman
Post 96: unvote
Post 126: vote: foilist13
Post 167: vote: archaebob
Post 183: vote: nolynch
Post 187: unvote
Post 193: vote: foilist13

Foilist13 voting pattern:

Post 0: vote: mordys
Post 11: unvote, vote: muffin
Post 25: unvote, vote: archaebob
Post 31: unvote, vote: muffin
Post 36: unvote, vote: chinaman
Post 37: unvote, vote: afatchic
Post 39: unvote, vote: almastergm
Post 83: unvote, vote: sociopath
Post 90: vote: almastergm
Post 91: unvote, vote: cruelty
Post 115: unvote, vote: mordys
Post 125: vote: mordys
Post 126: unvote, vote: gammagooey

Looking at the three of these, Cruelty has to be scum. He's been playing from RVS and has only put down five votes over this entire game? And not one of them for scum? By contrast, Sanjay/Chinaman were all over muffin/Sociopath, and foilist13 was actually pretty heavily against muffin/Sociopath throughout day one. Voting patterns for two dead scum coming. I didn't analyze Papa Zito or PhaerieM because I'm certain they're both town. I didn't analyze myself because I know I'm town. Someone else can feel free to look through my votes.

[MordyS]

Gammagooey voting pattern:

Post 0: vote: almastergm
Post 11: unvote, vote: almastergm
Post 20: vote: muffin
Post 22: unvote, vote: almastergm
Post 39: vote: foilist13
Post 51: vote: cruelty
Post 65: unvote, vote: peanutman
Post 66: unvote
Post 77: vote: archaebob
Post 78: vote: peanutman

I wasn't highly involved in the Cruelty offensive (which is where Gammagooey put down his Post 51 vote), but was it more like his Muffin vote (bussing, but unvoting when the opportunity presented itself), or more like an opportunistic vote? I'm going to reread it, but from somewhere who was there: What do you think in hindsight was the meaning of the Cruelty vote? If we assume that Gammagooey is the kinda of person to distance from his partners (like what he did against Muffin/Sociopath), does this indicate Cruelty is his likely partner? If we assume that Muffin/Sociopath was an aberration, does this indicate Sanjay is the likely last partner?

(Btw: Assuming we win this one, Peanutman is the MVP of the game. I would've never suspected Gammagooey, and just looking over his posts, I'm incredibly impressed by his play.)

Muffin/Sociopath voting pattern:

Post 0: vote: archaebob
Post 9: unvote, vote: chinaman
Post 25: unvote
Sociopath never voted.

Not sure if there anything to be made from this.

[MordyS]

1) The mafia had no power role that could interfere with a cop. While less likely because that's just a wee bit broken, it could have happened.

They did have a power role that could interfere with a cop. We killed him d1.

[MordyS]

I was thinking about that, Sanjay, but hindsight it's always easier to point that stuff out. The truth is that it was still a poor argument, even if it had the benefit of being true.

[MordyS]

Explain? You're saying this makes foilist13 less likely to be scum or more likely?

[MordyS]

I'm not scum and I don't want town tunneled on me because at this point I can see that if foilist isn't scum...

Weird to claim before a single vote is on you, and why did you say that at this point "if foilist isn't scum..." as though it's a foregone conclusion that he isn't? Sanjay has some good evidence that points towards him being town, but I don't know why you'd just roll with that.

[MordyS]

I'm not positive that I want to lynch cruelty yet, but he makes the most sense. (My gut says not him, but my gut said not Gammagooey too -- so I cannot trust that thing in this game.) For one, I noticed that leading up to the Sociopath lynch, cruelty and gammagooey both had their vote on the same person (foilist13). If scum pairs ever coordinate votes, and in my experience as scum, they try to quietly, then that would fit. Also there was that weird comment Cruelty made about how disappointed he was that AlmasterGM got to hammer. Like maybe he wanted to buy some townie points by doing it himself.

[MordyS]

3. He somehow knew AGM's avatar beforehand (figured what the hell, I'll include it).

This was Gammagooey. You really have had some kind of mental block the entire game about this particular situation. It's kinda weird.

[MordyS]

PhaerieM + Papa Zito, do you both believe Cruelty is the last scum? (I ask because I have a town read on both of you, and I've kinda psyched myself out w/r/t scumhunting, so I keep second-guessing my read.)

[MordyS]

Ok. This is gonna sound weird, but I reread a bunch of the thread (in particular the Chinaman/Muffin discussion and the Cruelty attack on d2) and while I didn't get any more of a scum read on Cruelty, I got town reads on everyone else. PhaerieM basically single-handedly attacked Muffin early on (for that Chinaman argument), so town. Chinaman/Sanjay: I got a town read from that argument. Foilist13: Known scum pushed against him too hard for him to make sense as scum. Papa Zito: Nothing ironclad, but more town than Cruelty. So, I'm gonna:

Vote: Cruelty

[MordyS]

Well, Papa Zito did push the Muffin wagon early, and defended AlmasterGM copiously early on. Pretty townie imo.

[MordyS]

So Cruelty, do you think Papa Zito is scum? Or are you just trying to keep options open?

[MordyS]

EBWOP (I checked out your meta btw. I only saw town meta, but you were way more scumhunty in those games than here. If there's scum meta, link me?)

[MordyS]

Speculative question, Cruelty, but how do you think your play would differ if you were scum? Can you point to certain things you've done as townie that you're pretty sure you wouldn't do as scum? A few other questions:

1. You didn't vote for either the Sociopath or the Gammagooey wagons. Can you explain why by each? What is your normal method of finding scum, and why do you think it failed with Sociopath + Gammagooey?

2. At one point about foilist13, you said, "If he's scum he's obviously worried and will slip up sooner or later, if he's town he'll plateau. I get the impression that scumfoilist does not have the blood of an assassin running through his veins, he aint ice cold." Do you think he's town at this point, or do you think he's got the blood of an assassin running through his veins?

3. Do you think there is value in analyzing wagons/votes to try and find the remaining scum? If so, how do you recommend we go about doing that? What should we be looking for?

Side Question to 3: Do you think that the final scum bussed both Sociopath AND Gammagooey? One of them but not the other? Neither of them? Why?

4. First you said, "Obvious suspects are Mordy and Sanjay," and now you're apparently widening your net to include everyone. Do you really think anyone could be scum? Who is the most likely scum? Can you build a case against them?

Also, I wrote this earlier, but I'll write it now again. I pushed hard for an archaebob lynch because I thought archaebob was scum. In the scenario that he wasn't scum, I still felt mostly okay with the lynch because he was playing poorly. He wasn't answering cases against him, he was making half-assed arguments, and he was pushing for this grand theory of how Sanjay and I were scum partners together. I know I'm not scum, and I'm not getting a scum feel off Sanjay, so I suspect he was totally wrong, and I knew at the time that he was at least half wrong. He kept pushing his response off, and tbh, the game had stagnated. So I took a chance. If anyone wants to push further, go for it. But I'm not sure what else I can add to that.

But!

5. Cruelty, at the time you said, "I don't think it was particularly intelligent but I'm willing to let Mordy play himself into a hole (or to make himself a hero)." I understand why you'd be willing to let me make myself a hero as town, but why would you want me to play myself into a hole as town? If you thought I was probtown, you definitely wouldn't want me to play myself into a hole, since it would set me up as next day mislynch. Consider the advice I gave to archaebob when he said we should lynch him if he was wrong about me (btw, that's what I did, just in reverse). If you felt I was sincere townie at the time, you shouldn't have wanted me to dig a hole for myself. If you thought I was possible scum, you should've said as much. Instead you stood back. This doesn't strike me as particularly townie behavior. Can you explain it?

[MordyS]

Btw - Serious question for everyone: Do we want to NL tonight and FL with 5 people tomorrow? If possible, I'd like to hear everyone answer this question, and particularly, answer it with an explanation of why or why not. (Cruelty, you too.)

[MordyS]

Cruelty, when you get back, please explain the "dig himself a hole," comment. I think that's essential, and currently unexplained.

[MordyS]

Foilist13: If you are town, and you see that I'm fighting with someone who you also think is town, and you're worried that two mislynches are going to happen (archaebob and then me when it turns out archaebob is town), you wouldn't be willing to let someone dig themselves a hole. That would be incredibly scummy. It would be attempting to set up a mislynch. If you believe I'm scum because I hammered archaebob, that doesn't explain why I should be digging a hole beforehand. (Especially if you think I'm town.) That's what Cruelty has to answer.

Also: You're still an idiot.

[MordyS]

He was saying that we have no reason from stopping you showing your true colors. When you get that deep into a debate it is much easier to see where your motivation is coming from.

I'm gonna try to explain this to you, and hopefully you can understand it:

He didn't feel my arguing with archaebob illuminated my scuminess as you do. He believed that me lynching archaebob when he turned out to be town illuminated my scuminess. However, if he believed that my case against archaebob wasn't scummy, then it shouldn't be scummy that I lynched town. Do you follow this? Can you understand this and why this is a problem?

[MordyS]

lol, foilist13. He asked me to unvote so he could put him at L-1 and I could hammer him. Sanjay was symbolically the hammer vote. I just technically hammered it for Sanjay's out-of-game personal relationship to archaebob or whatever was going on there.

[MordyS]

It is different. I'll try to explain again, but honestly? I'm not sure it'll do much good. Maybe one of the other players can explain it.

You looked at me arguing with archaebob. You felt my arguing was scummy. That was confirmed for you when archaebob flipped town.

Cruelty looked at me arguing with archaebob. He felt my arguing was valid. He still set it up so that if I lynched archaebob as town, I'd "bury" myself. Do you see the difference?

Think about it this way: If Cruelty was scum, he knew archaebob was town. Therefore he stepped back to let me "bury" myself so that he could get an easy lynch the next day. You never believed I was town and were actually voting for me going into the end of the day. What Cruelty did was scummy. Do you understand that? Letting town bury themselves if you believe they're town is scummy.

Let me repeat that: If you believe someone is town, but you admit that you want them to bury themselves, that is scummy.

Let me try it a different way: If Cruelty believed I was scum, why wasn't he voting for me? If he believed my case against archaebob was good: Why would it matter how archaebob flipped? Town lynches town sometimes. Read this. Read it three times. If you still can't understand it, come back.

[MordyS]

Maybe Sanjay, assuming he understands what I'm saying, can explain it. I don't know how else I can say this.

[MordyS]

Cruelty thought you were both town. he didn't know that you were both town. He wanted to see if you were both town. So he let you argue.

If he thought we were both town, why didn't he intercede? Why didn't he argue with me? Why didn't he try to defend archaebob? Why would he let me argue and bury myself? How is that a townie reaction to seeing two town argue?

[MordyS]

@Mordy - You are implying that Cruelty meant letting you as town bury yourself, which is obviously a stupid thing for him to say, and I know he is intelligent enough not to have meant that.

Why do you feel that way? Has there been any indication this game that he's too good a player to not give a scumslip if he's scum?

Btw: What was unreasonable was that archaebob had plenty of chances before that post to defend himself, but wasted those chances spouting conspiracy theories and totally ignoring cases against him. This was, btw, his MO the entire game. He never answered people's questions, and he often refused to deal with people's problems with him. He acted like he was above the same rules the rest of us play by. I had no reason to believe his epic wall post would be anything different. I understood his position. He thought none of my cases against him made any sense and that I was obvscum with Sanjay. Forgive me that I didn't want to waste more time waiting for him to give us his epic wall post explicating everything he already said.

Do you really believe he had something coming that would've been helpful today? I don't.

[MordyS]

I mean, how long would it have taken him to explain the inconsistently in his position on Sociopath (first opinion: lynch him BEFORE AlmasterGM or foilist13, second opinion after wagon started: Don't lynch him, you're crazy!)? What? Like three lines explaining himself? How complicated could it be? Instead he wrote another 400 words saying how he'd like to push off his explanation longer. He could've written 100 words explaining himself instead.

[MordyS]

It wasn't an attack. "Right now, I'm the dead-line lynch, so you have no reason not to give me a day to defend myself properly."

[MordyS]

EBWOP: When I read that, in light of his constant deferrals, it sounded to me like scum scrambling. The truth takes a second, a lie takes awhile. If he wanted to defend himself, it shouldn't have taken very long. (Your quotes contradict each other? "I made a mistake." -- that's all it takes if you're town.)

[MordyS]

Well, Papa Zito, if you've found scum, you could make a short case and place a vote? That would kinda be helpful.

[MordyS]

Sanjay has comics?

[MordyS]

I think you need to be cross-examined for the bob lynch, I agreed with several points you brought up against him but ultimately you aggressively mislynched.

Do you believe that aggressive mislynches are scumtells?

[MordyS]

If foilist13 turns out to be town at the end of this game, can we take turns beating him with pillow cases full of soap?

[MordyS]

Then ask. What's the question?

[MordyS]

So, here's my read from cruelty: He sounds like defeated scum, ie: scum who knows it's game over and can barely bring themselves to defend themselves. He claimed early, he seems almost exhausted at being interrogated, and there's no fire to his defenses. Simultaneously, tho, he's asking a lot of lazy questions and not following up on any of them. I should be questioned because I quicklynched archaebob -- but he doesn't actually have any questions on hand. Papa Zito should be interrogated because he's lurky, but cruelty isn't actually going to push it himself. Foilist13 should be questioned because he's a loose handle, and even if I agree on this point, cruelty still isn't doing any questioning. It could possibly be that he's defeated town, but after Sanjay's pep-talk (if you're town, look alive), he still doesn't look very alive.

So I guess we can wait until after Christmas when he has the time to devote to the game. I'm not the hammer vote so it's not my decision anyway. But he strikes me as very scummy. (Particularly because of the lazy raising of cases without actually pursuing any.) Like, at one point he attacked foilist13 for not bringing his A+ game to the thread, but didn't actually bother explaining why that's scummy and not poor town play. Etc.

[MordyS]

Papa Zito, I've questioned the person I find scummy. I question foilist13 all the time, too, but he kinda has a hard time understanding my questions so idk.

V/LA till my computer comes back from the shop (should be a few days at the least -- I'll check in from my iPhone)

[MordyS]

Here's a question for foilist13: if I'm your #1 scum option, why exactly are you voting for cruelty and why does your case against me consist of a six-pack of Pabst and an archaebob quote?

[MordyS]

I'm still here. I've got nothing really to add at this point.

[MordyS]

First of all, I'm not sure whether the rule exists on the forums, but on IRC there's a rule: Play to win. If you're town, your job is to convince us you're town. Self-hammering isn't playing to win. (Ditto if you're scum. Though I'd complain less about a self-hammer in that case, it wouldn't be less against the rules.)

Second of all, if you're not scum, who is? You've promised to get back into the game and to scumhunt and defend yourself. I still believe you should be hammered (though I'd like Papa Zito or PhaerieM to do the hammering, not yourself), but before you're hammered, I'd like to actually see some gameplay out fo you.

[MordyS]

PhaerieM, earlier you said:

I'm pretty positive cruelty will be the lynch for the day. There is no one else who looks scummier to more people. I'm content with that, but I don't want to rush lynch either, & hope we don't end the day *too* quickly.

Do you believe cruelty should be the lynch of the day, or are you just positive that he *will* be the lynch of the day? You say you're content with the fact that he looks scummier to more people. Content? What would you prefer?

[MordyS]

Vote: Nolynch

[MordyS]

Ok, foilist13, who was your primary suspect yesterday that you couldn't share with us?

[MordyS]

You know what? I'm gonna go with my gut here. I think Papa Zito is the final scum. I think it's the only explanation for this final 3. Why would me and foilist13 be left alive? Presumably because foilist13 suspects me from the archaebob incident and he's considered weaker scum. If I were scum, I wouldn't have left Papa Zito + PhaerieM alive until the end (they were both pretty clear in my eyes), and it doesn't make sense that Papa Zito was left alive until 3p. Why kill Sanjay over Papa Zito? Moreover, reading him throughout the game he was very agreeable, he buddied with me often (saying more than once that we were on the same page), and though he was on both lynches, he never drove both lynches. He got on Sociopath early, but that could've been good luck since the wagon shifted onto Sociopath after he already moved. He agreed with the Gammagooey lynch, but how could he say no to it? The cop had already suspected Gammagooey. In fact, if you read his comment, the tone sounds like he's conceding that:

Good deal. Especially since nobody was suspecting him.

Which sounds a bit to me like: Good job, Gammagooey but bad luck getting called out like that.

Vote: Papa Zito

God, I hope I'm right. I'm taking a huge risk assuming that foilist13 has just played poorly throughout this game and isn't actually scum. If it turns out he is scum, I'm kinda going to be disgusted and become a huge proponent of policy lynches in the future. Scum shouldn't be allowed to cruise through the game by playing VI. (I don't think he's scum however -- it doesn't make sense that foilist13 is scum.)

Anyway. Trying not to second-guess/WIFOM myself. Foilist13, if you are scum, please don't slowroll the hammer.

[MordyS]

EBWOP he's considered a weaker player*, not weaker scum.

[MordyS]

Unvote

But I think it's you and you're going to have to make a freaking amazing compelling case against foilist13 to convince me otherwise.

[MordyS]

That, but moreso, it doesn't make sense that it's foilist13.

[MordyS]

Here's what I think foilist13. I think that Papa Zito left you and I alive because he thought it would be easy to pit us against each other. If it goes down the way I imagine it will, either you'll vote me and Papa Zito will hammer, or me and Zito will crossvote and you'll hammer me. I unvoted because Papa Zito is right, however. There's no need to rush things, and if I'm right about how this is gonna roll, no point pushing to the inevitable conclusion.

That said, I'm not 100% convinced now. I was mostly convinced (and I wanted to go with my gut), but something new has caught my attention. If foilist13 is scum, it actually makes some sense to keep me around -- he's been pushing against me since the archaebob thing, so it could be he wanted to use that as the final bang. However:

If Papa Zito left me and foilist13 alive because he assumed foilist13 would vote for me, he could have just crossvoted me instead of asking me to unvote and then waited for the (inevitable) foilist13 hammer. He didn't, though, he asked me to unvote. Which is why I did unvote (because scum-Papa Zito presumably wouldn't ask me to unvote, unless he was worried he was foilist13's other suspect). Also:

The only reason you would have voted in lylo is if you were sure you found the scum, or if you just had to convince one of the townies. =/

That =/ sounds a lot like, "I'm disappointed I missed the easy hammer."

Of course, why would scum-foilist13 try to push the case on me? He already knows that I suspected Papa Zito the most. Why not claim Papa Zito was his #1 suspect and just push hard against him, maybe even dropping a vote (knowing after the archaebob incident that I'm impulsive and would likely drop a hammer). Hrm.

See, this is why I just wanted to vote and be done with it. Now I'm clouded with WIFOM.

[MordyS]

foilist13, a question: You say that suspected Sanjay, then PhaerieM, then me in that order. Why absolutely no suspicion of Papa Zito?

[MordyS]

EBWOP, two quick points:

1. I also don't trust people who don't suspect every player. "knowing" who scum is is generally scumtell imo, and uncertainty is much more townie. So foilist13 having no doubt whatsoever about who is scum worries me. Also, foilist13, why did you say you know I'm scum, but you're not voting for me?

2. My absolutely weakest spot in playing Mafia is telling the difference between VI's and scum. So foilsit13 has basically completely screwed up my radar this game, which is why I made the comment before about policy lynching.

Anyway, here's why it doesn't make sense that foilist13 is scum: He attacked Gammagoeoy in the early game, and then Muffin. Gammagooey attacked foilist13 instead of hunting archaebob.

Here's why he could be scum: He knew day one that Gammagooey and Muffin were scum, though he didn't push hard on either of them. Either he's the most amazing scum hunter ever (like Sanjay thought), or he knew who scum was. He knew that archaebob wasn't scum. How could he know that? EVERYONE thought archaebob was scum. archaebob was scummy.

[MordyS]

One more thing: There's three of us left. This game is 66 pages long. I know Papa Zito said he'll post his case tonight but let's not drag this out. Ie: Foilist13, if you -think- I'm scum, vote me and if Papa Zito doesn't hammer, I'll crossvote and maybe we can wrap this up by tonight.

[MordyS]

2) You just voted in lylo without hearing any conversation. I do not buy that you just didn't realize the scum player could hammer and be done.

We're in lylo, so I can phrase this strenuously. Don't mischaracterize my position again or I'll vote for you. Period. You've been doing it all game and you look ready to do it some more. I never claimed I was ignorant of the consequences of voting in lylo.

Also if you are scum, how could you not leave me alive into lylo? It would be sheer idiocy to leave me alive and be left with papa and furry/phaerie, both of whom have been semi confirmed town most of the day.

If I were scum I would have left Sanjay and PhaerieM alive, obviously.

It seems like a perfect play to me that you leave me alive to try and show your innocense, and convince papa to go after me. Then you make a show of voting papa so that it isn't obvious, and you let him convince you that I'm the scum.

Actually, I wouldn't keep you alive because I don't think I can convince you of anything. You're a moron.

I see the mindset argument against papa, but you make more sense. If you want to win you need to convince either papa or me that we are wrong and to vote for the other. If you're town, you also need to be right, but I don't think that's too much of a concern for you.

First of all, Papa Zito has been convinced you're scum for days now. If I was scum I would have pushed a case on you, not on him. I wouldn't have to convince him of anything. He said he was 99% sure you're scum.

I'm going to think about this long and hard before I vote, but it would be a poor play by either of you who suspects the other to leave me to make up my own mind.

lol. Because you're cleared? Seriously, explain this. You don't have a hammer vote and it could easily end up with me and you crossvoted or you and Papa Zito crossvoted as it could me and Papa Zito crossvoted.

[MordyS]

More:

1) You hammered archaebob, when he had promised answers at a set time.

Do you believe this is a scumtell more than a towntell? If so, why? Also, if so: Why was I your third suspect after PhaerieM and Sanjay, neither of whom had this "scumtell."

Answer this please. It's very important.

[MordyS]

You didn't answer my question.

[MordyS]

How do your friends play Mafia that is similar to the way Sanjay + PhaerieM were playing that set off your radar?

[MordyS]

Is that a difficult question to answer, foilsit13?

[MordyS]

That's not the question I asked you, foilist13. I didn't mention your scum meta at all. Please answer the question I asked you.

I'll answer your question however:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11594
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12697

Two games where I was scum. Now please answer my question.

[MordyS]

Oh, I see what you're trying to do. No, I want you to be explicit. The fact that you suspected PhaerieM and Sanjay over me because they were nice doesn't make any sense. If you're 100% sure I'm scum because I hammered archaebob, them playing "nice" shouldn't have put them in front of me. Moreover, Sanjay certainly wasn't nice. So how was his play similar to you and your friends?

[MordyS]

I want to know how the way they played made them more scummy than me. Do you understand why that question is important? It's important because if you think I'm scummy for a reason so poor that PhaerieM being nice makes her more scummy it means you didn't have much of a case on me. If that were the case, why would you be so certain I'm scum?

Phrased differently: If you're positive I'm scum, and you thought PhaerieM was more scummy than me, and you were wrong, therefore you can't be positive I'm scum. Therefore you're inconsistent and possibly being scummy yourself.

Do. You. Understand. Now?

Please answer the question and stop ducking or I'll vote for you. (God. I wish I could threat that this entire game. It would make things so much more pleasant.)

[MordyS]

Listen very carefully, cuz apparently this is difficult for you. When I have three possibilities, i.e. You, Phaerie, and Sanjay, I can't be sure of any of them. When two of those three are eliminated, I have 1. The end.

You shouldn't be rude when you're such a bloody moron.

So substitute whatever name you want and answer my question.

[MordyS]

Actually, I think this is very telling. You keep swapping between the two when you talk. It's been kinda a thing for you all game. You couldn't tell the difference between me and Gammagooey. Now you just drop in PhaerieM's name where you mean Cruelty name (or vice-versa) and get rude when people take you at face. Maybe Cruelty was right. You don't have ice running through your veins. The way you scumslip is by screwing up names. It's the logical dissonance.

[MordyS]

But Cruelty was still a suspect before me?

[MordyS]

Essentially you still have the answer the question no matter which of those names you fit in that slot. So please, get to answering and stop stalling.

[MordyS]

foilist13, should I just vote you? If you're gonna vote me, that either guarantees Papa Zito-scum win if you're town, or you're scum and then I'd be voting for the right person.

[MordyS]

Here's what bothers me. If foilist13 is scum, he fucked up pushing a case on me. Papa Zito is far more suspicious of him. He should've pushed on Papa Zito -- claimed that he was foilist13's most suspicious player. This way he's got an uphill battle convincing Papa Zito that I'm scum. But it's the same for Papa Zito. If he's scum, knowing foilist13 is town, it would be far more advantageous to push a lynch on me. Instead he sounds 99% secure that foilist13 is scum. So the question is: Who is the more likely fail scum?

[MordyS]

Well, I'll be honest. I'm frustrated because I know one of you two is scum and I have no idea which. I can see cases for both. I'd prefer something not long and drawn out because I find the more I second-guess myself, the worse I play.

[MordyS]

foilist13, you said you were waiting to hear from Papa Zito before you were sure. What exactly are you waiting to hear?

[MordyS]

Why for the love of god would I leave alive you and papa into lylo? Papa seems to suspect me, and you have been a huge adversary to me, and would be inclined to not take my posts seriously, and to go after me, as would papa. That is a terrible position for me to be in under any circumstances

Actually I've said multiple times this game that I thought you were town. I discounted what you said because I thought you were a poor town player. I'd be the IDEAL person for you to leave alive till today. Sanjay has played with you before, so that's an obvious reason to knock him off. And let's be honest, any of us as scum would've nightkilled the replacement. It's pretty common knowledge that replacements are super dangerous to leave alive. (I was actually kinda relieved the replacement died for that reason. I was really getting suspicious of PhaerieM.)

[MordyS]

Meh. Well, I'm clear. Crossvote I guess and I'll figure out who scum is tomorrow.

[MordyS]

Are you relieved you -guessed- right foilist13?

[MordyS]

Well, whatever. I'll reread tomorrow. I'm too tired at the moment to figure this out.

[MordyS]

Maybe. I wasn't lyng tho, I'm really too tired to think this through tonight. And now that it's basically resting on me to get a multi-month sixty something page game right I'm gonna sleep on it. It could be you're right, but it can't hurt to wait until my mind is fresh.

[MordyS]

I think I know who scum is, but I'm gonna take another hour to think about it. Do either of you wanna say anything?

[MordyS]

Vote: foilist13

If I'm wrong, I apologize to everyone. I really have a hard time distinguishing between scum + poor town play.

[MordyS]

Ugh. I know I was wrong. This was like an impossible choice. If I voted for Papa Zito and I was wrong, I would've felt like an idiot for letting foilist13 win with all the scummy stuff he's accumulated (including this final day nonsense where apparently he believed 100% I was scum until Papa Zito made a fairly innocuous comment about my hammer on archaebob).

[MordyS]

I just voted. So let me know if I was wrong.

[MordyS]

Thank god. My heart was about to stop.

[MordyS]

Same reason as before. Didn't wanna psyche myself out, and I figured I had enough information in 68 pages to make the correct decision. Also I read an exchange early on between you and Gammagooey that made me feel really good about you being town. In it, you attacked Sociopath for lurking and Gammagooey attacked you for voting him without having a good case. I could buy you bussing Sociopath, and I could buy Gammagooey attacking you, but I couldn't buy the three of you speaking about each other aloud all at once in a 3-way attack.

[MordyS]

It's right here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 78#1972278

Also, my personal philosophy of Mafia (which I've mostly developed over IRC games, so it's not 100% applicable on forums) is that the final 3 is a lot like heads up poker. You make the reads you feel comfortable with and you push them. If you're wrong, you're wrong, but you have to trust your gut. Obviously that worked out poorly for me with my first vote, but Papa Zito's response sounded authentic enough that I was willing to unvote to rework it out, and apparently my second vote was correct. I'll be honest -- this wasn't the best game for me. But I'm sure as much as I feel that way, archaebob must feel 10x that.

[MordyS]

Anyway, assuming Papa Zito isn't just screwing with me, we won. I've got a lot to write about this game (how long did it take? it felt like a year of my life was spent here) though I'll wait till after the official wrap-up. Early MVP's of the game however: Peanutman for town, Gammagooey for scum. The former basically saved town from eating themselves alive and the latter played a remarkable scum game imo. I never once suspected him until that guilty verdict arrived.

[MordyS]

Ah crap. I was right. In that case, apologies everyone. And foilist13, honestly, I blame you for the loss. Awful awful awful play.

[MordyS]

Sigh. What a heartbreaking loss.

[MordyS]

If I had gone with my very first instinct, I would've voted you. But foilist13 just dug himself into a huge hole today. Particularly suspecting me so strongly and then flipping back onto you for what was really an innocuous comment. Especially after he defended archaebob so strenuously for a far more contradictory statement. MEH.

[MordyS]

Seriously foilist13, if you can't see it now, maybe you'll come back in a few years and reread this thread. You were kept around because you were scummy. I could write a multipage list of all the scummy things you've done this game. My final question was who to go with; the guy who wasn't particularly scummy or the guy who was so scummy as to be almost impossible to believe. At first I went with Papa Zito but then you dug in and made yourself look scummier and scummier. Like how you went from suspecting me 100% to voting for Papa Zito the moment it became clear Papa Zito was going to vote for you. The moment he basically said you were his vote, you totally abandoned your case on me. Moreover your game was sloppy and full of name screwups (Gammagooey/Mordy in the first day more noticeably) you made cases that didn't make sense (siding with archaebob two days ago) and totally incoherent at times. I'm not saying you're a bad person, and I hold no ill will towards you, but you made the final choice remarkably difficult for me and if you played a little better during the game, it would've turned out differently.

Which is to say: You may not have felt that you being scummy was a problem, but it clearly was. Maybe you felt it didn't matter. I have a hard time believing you actually believed you weren't coming off scummy. In the end though there was just too much awful play coming from you. I could've never forgiven myself if I voted Papa Zito and you turned out to be scum. It would've meant I was ignoring a thousand scumtells from your direction and latching onto one or two from Papa Zitos. And if you don't believe me, we'll wait to hear what other people have to say.

[MordyS]

Yeah, this was a huge heartbreaker. But like what archaebob said: Scum deserved the win. Between Papa Zito + Gammagooey they WAY outplayed the town. We got two lucky breaks (Sociopath disappearing and the cop result on Gammagooey), and considering I originally voted for Papa Zito, we almost had three. But it would've been like the Raiders beating the Colts -- any given Sunday, but it wasn't gonna be this Sunday. :/

Archaebob, my only recommendation and what I wanted to tell you at the time: Gut feelings are obviously very important, and I wish I had relied more upon my gut than my mind this game, but it's also important to stay calm and logical. The more you argued with me the scummier you made yourself look. It's important to answer people's questions calmly and collectedly and be as skeptical of OMGUS as possible. In fact, I'd suggest to stay away from OMGUS 99% of the time. If the person attacking you is scummy, someone else will notice. When you get involved in something like what happened between you and I, you can't help but dig yourself deeper.

My recommendation for foilist13, though I'm sure he doesn't care, is to tighten your game and play more meticulously. Spell out everything you do, don't make lazy mistakes like name confusion, make sure arguments make sense and are clear. You clearly play by gut, and that can be a really strong way to play, but if you can't convince other people of your positions (and your innocence) you're just a weight on the town. Even the most gutty player has to learn how to communicate their gut feelings.

[MordyS]

To be honest? I was positive you were scum and I thought you were delaying to try and weasel your way out of being lynched. Worst case, I thought you were town that was going to ignore all the attacks on you and were just going to attack me more. I knew I was town, so that was gonna be a waste of time. If I could do it over I may have done it differently, but when you asked for another day I was positive you weren't going to be coming back with a great defense of your actions.

(Were you? Or were you gonna just attack me with all you had and sidestep the attacks again?)

[MordyS]

What Sanjay said. I was very iffy on lynching Cruelty at that point.