Mini 905- Mafia in Sienna OVER

[Oman]

/Confirm.

Yeah I'd be happier if you didn't make it MME! Ohhh jokes, Bro!

[Oman]

I think I've played with Kitten4U prior. Is that correct?

[Oman]

Elli, why do you think that they're scum? This is a serious question here, I won't be happy with a jokey response.

Thesp: I always find happiness in Role PMs, because I always think "this is a chance to play this role to the best of my ability!" On this one I was even happier because its a chance to be against you Thespscum! Also Thesp, very upset to not see you asking yourself the hard questions!

[Oman]

Well I'm happy to start with a

Vote: Elli

simply for playing so differently to the opening of the previous game where she was town.

Granted, small sample size, but best I've got for now.

[Oman]

Sotty7, what's the best method for catching scum?

Paying attention.

Vote: Oman

I thought it was pretty clear that Elli was joking around.

That precisely the point I'm making. Elli in the last game (as town) sat back, chilled, and then went all out citing "gut" for all votes at all times, voting people and giving them no relief.

Elli copped my vote in the last game, Sotty. He laughed and wore it like a charm.

Compare that with his actions in this game. See the flippant nature of defence is now a joking offence. See how the fierce attack is now self-defence.

Elli is not the same alignment she was, I'd put money on that.

[Oman]

Oh no thats right, I was an SK, I wouldn't have voted for you. I was a bit more cautious with that early vote because I had a kill power.

Anyway, suspicions/vote, its all the same, bro.

[Oman]

pman, what is that gut based on?

[Oman]

Yep I know the feeling, but the reason you're getting it is because something twigged you. I'd love to know what that was. If you ever figure it out, let us know.

[Oman]

Oman - Your meta-grounds for voting seem fairly weak. Is his behaviour extremely different in this game?

Not different enough that I'm tunnelvisioned. Different enough to twig something in me.

Also, I'm aware that it's weak, but I think it's the best we've got.

[Oman]

Oman, what do you think of pman and Leaf?

To be at my most truthful: I think pman would give us a lot of info if he had a wagon put on him, as per the last game. I think it would be a good way to glean some good info (although for most people we seem beyond that stage of the game).

As for leaf, I don't get the scum read. I'll re-read him and his accusers and let you know my adjudication at this time. But from what I've seen, nothing has actually stunned me as either worth chasing him over, or worth pointing fingers at his attackers. Not worth asking for a summary right now, but I do think it looks like an early game wagon, which I'm cool with. If people know when to abandon it or not, that will tell me more.

[Oman]

Two more players I love dearly.

[Oman]

Can you quote or link to those specific posts. I'm looking for a new wagon and I'll take yours if you can convince me.

(I'm ditching this wagon right now because I'm not getting anything from it)

[Oman]

After re-reading the whole thread,

Vote: Kitten4u

Contradiction, and when called out, her defense seemed more about survival than helping the town.

Can you quote or link to those specific posts. I'm looking for a new wagon and I'll take yours if you can convince me.

(I'm ditching this wagon right now because I'm not getting anything from it)

Sorry I missed all of page 9 when I'd posted this (rookie move, I know). It was a post to pman's above. Kitten is fragging me some gut, I'll need to find some links myself.

[Oman]

The one thing throwing me about Kitten4U is that she seems to be doing a lot of "I'm not scummy, but you are for asking that question." She does have a very defensive playstyle, and that can mean scum.

I'm happy to go to L-2 with this.

Unvote. Vote: Kitten4U

[Oman]

Elli is worrying me a little bit again.

Elli why are you voting Kitten. I ask because that looks like real scumpartner behaviour there.

[Oman]

I am so unhappy with every person that unvoted Kitten. I am so disappointed in everyone that doesn't have the guts to stay at L-1.

People like you are the reason mafia is becoming a stagnant festival of repeated words.

[Oman]

Kitten, I'm voting you for:

1. using weak reasoning against Leaf and ignoring the scummy actions of other players
2. applying double standards
3. pushing a crap wagon
4. inconsistent behavior
5. using tunnelvision as an excuse for your scummy actions
6. not providing a convincing defense

Your claim makes you the only correct lynch for today.

Vote stays.

How much win is there in CTD right now?

[Oman]

Well if you're jumping on just to see a claim on someone that you think is town, I'm calling that rolefishing.

Rock and a hard place, eh?

[Oman]

Just this one Ythill, and it's not defensive at all. It is far more offensive.

That is, when she is attacked, she doesn't defend herself so much as attack her attacker. It's this sense of "calling me scummy is a scumtell".

[Oman]

Well if you're jumping on just to see a claim on someone that you think is town, I'm calling that rolefishing.

Rock and a hard place, eh?

Meh, I really don't mind wagoning someone that I had a mostly null read on.

To L-1 is not just "wagoning" you did it for the claim.

Oman, are you sure he doesn't defend by attacking his attacker?

I never said that he didn't. but you're doing it again. I'm saying you're scummy for this, and you're trying to pass it off to someone else.

I'm happy with either Kitten or Elli on the block today, and I'll in all likely-hood be voting one of them tomorrow (the one that doesn't die today).

[Oman]

Straight up, I have never been more disappointed by a town I've looked forward to playing with. I am sick of this paralyzed inability to lynch. Goddamn hippies.

[Oman]

We have plenty of info, we have 12 pages, this is a good length for the day.

Any more and our signal to noise ratio is going to drop, making it impossible to find scum amongst the textheavy first day.

[Oman]

(2) The blatant rolefishing is scummy or, at the very least, extremely anti-town.

It also suggests that kitten is town.

How could I be so stupid? If Elli is scum with kitten is suggests really inappropriate distancing, or that kitten is town. Although nothing stops third parties, SKs etc.

That said, Kitten is now the best lynch, even over elli, as the risk/reward swings in favour of a kitten lynch, being that we have the claim and it's VT. Proper etiquette says kitten hangs, and elli is just running bad play.

That is, when she is attacked, she doesn't defend herself so much as attack her attacker. It's this sense of "calling me scummy is a scumtell".

Examples?

Firstly there is the General CTD issue, not any specific quotes, but Kitten was very light on him, until he started fighting back he went from just "weird" to "scummy".

This one affects me personally, and was where most of it started for me

So, before I continue, Oman, are you sure he doesn't defend by attacking his attacker? Because he didn't point out a bit of craplogic in that post like I asked people to.

After I make the point that Kitten does this, she just spins that comment on her to be an attack on someone else, something I'd never mentioned.

pman looks like the best lynch to me.

This feels very out of the blue. I just scanned through your posts and you call him a hypocrite once, but that's it.

[Oman]

Your lack of insight is uncharacteristic. Is that what an Oman scum-slip looks like?

Nope you and I fundamentally disagree on some theory points. It's neither here nor there really.

Are you saying that with the Elli/Kitten link we should lynch Kitten first because of the townie claim?

either will work, but we've already got a kitten claim. and worst case we lynch a townie.

Anyway, I really hope nobody makes me sift for quotes for this because it's L-1, but like I said: If kitten doesn't hang, then Elli should.

Unvote Vote: Elli

CoD!

[Oman]

Also, can we get a claim, or did I miss something?

[Oman]

Oh right, I'm not American so I don't get that. Cheers.

[Oman]

So... what do you guys think about the case? I skimmed through and only one person had commented.

I think it's far from the best lead we've got. It's based entirely on hypocricy for the most.

[Oman]

HEY EVERYONE! Even though I caleld you all smell yhippies. I still love you punks to death. Please don't think that I don't love you. I really do, we just dsee differently on things.

That and I'm a cunt.

Oh man, Thesp is gonna be angry about that one.

[Oman]

None of those posts are helpful Eli. Because even if you are town doesn't mean that A) you're right or B) that your case is instantly more valid.


Also, you can't just say Budja is scum, not present any evidence or case ("I don't like cases"?!) and expect us to blindly follow.

[Oman]

Vote: Wicked

[Oman]

Oman I'm a little concerned about but not very.

can I set your mind at ease?

I am also thinking of pushing Kittenwagon version 2.0 because the first one should have ended in a lynch. However, I intend to explore other lynch options prior to dealing with her.

[Oman]

Wicked's pman vote feels specifically designed to keep him out of the discussion on other people. He's voting someone that no-one has really expressed an interest of lynching, and has dodged comment on the two major wagons for the most part.

He did vote leaf early, then jumped to kitten later. However, it seems like he didn't expect the growth of kittenwagon, and as soon as it hit L-1, he unvoted, jumped on pman and never got involved again. I would bet my house that if the wagon on pman had grown, he would have been off in a few seconds.

Basically, he seems to be coming up with reasons to justify his vote post-voting, not voting due to those reasons.

Also, I'm pretty happy with leaftown right now. That early wagon was pretty bogus, and I've not seen anything change from that.

WickedWagon 2010

Needs your help! For anyone who is unsure, a WickedWagon looks like this:

[Oman]

If you think Wicked is scum vote for him. So long as your reason isn't OMGUS, you won't get it thrown at you.

[Oman]

Wicked wagon needs more votes. That could pick up posting.

[Oman]

He won't because this game is full of pussies that don't vote or wagon, and when they do there is no threat because everyone knows they won't lynch.

I feel like I'm wasting my goddamn time here.

[Oman]

He won't because this game is full of pussies that don't vote or wagon, and when they do there is no threat because everyone knows they won't lynch.

I feel like I'm wasting my goddamn time here.

[Oman]

I love the fact that I get OMGUSed there without Wicked actually responding to my points. Kind of pretending I didn't even post anything.

Speaking of pretending, lets move on to another actor:

It's true that being terribly indecisive Town is a bad thing. However, why are you bitching about it on D2?

Because the town is the same town, and they are still doing the same thing. We have 3-4 different wagons all on 2 votes each (or did previously).

Why did you want K4U lynched so badly?

Because he/she was scummy and obviously enough people thought so. The reasons people were jumping off the wagon were illustrious and falsified. Also there was a lot of "hammer-fear".

Why did you then find it so easy to move to Ellibereth? Your post wherein you note that Elli-rolefishing meant that K4U is probably Town assuming that Elli is Scum reads awfully, and seemed like justification for a votejump.

I had already expressed suspicion of Elli several times. here, Here, Here, Here.

Unfortunately that post that reads awfully (How so? Bad grammar, like scum would talk? Commit here) was exactly how it looks to me: a stream of consciousness. So no, there was no justification in that opening line. Read through my posts where I've been against Elli several times, then explained my change in vote.

Not only that, the whole thing reads quite horrible: HAY WHYS EVERYONE NOT LYNCHING K4U YOU ALL ARE INDECISIVE WORTHLESS TOWNIES oh wait hey here's some justification for Elli-Scum NEVERMIND LETS VOTE ELLI LOL.

That's the best you've got?

The fact that you were second-last on the wagon is quite notable as well, as was the fact that you were first on an earlier attempt at an Ellibereth wagon, before moving to K4U, and going as far as to state that you're moving her up to L-2 (*gasp*!), as if it actually mattered on D1.

Strawman at the end there too. But the key issue is that you pretend I didn't always have the two of them in my sights as two good possible lynches. You act as if voting kitten meant I thought elli town.




Of the two or three points that were actually valid, I think they mostly stem from you misunderstanding me, or attempting to portray me in a poor light. I am just gonna say that a Kitten/Wicked scumteam is looking pretty likely. And I'm going to read more into that.

[Oman]

I love the fact that I get OMGUSed there without Wicked actually responding to my points. Kind of pretending I didn't even post anything.

Speaking of pretending, lets move on to another actor:

It's true that being terribly indecisive Town is a bad thing. However, why are you bitching about it on D2?

Because the town is the same town, and they are still doing the same thing. We have 3-4 different wagons all on 2 votes each (or did previously).

Why did you want K4U lynched so badly?

Because he/she was scummy and obviously enough people thought so. The reasons people were jumping off the wagon were illustrious and falsified. Also there was a lot of "hammer-fear".

Why did you then find it so easy to move to Ellibereth? Your post wherein you note that Elli-rolefishing meant that K4U is probably Town assuming that Elli is Scum reads awfully, and seemed like justification for a votejump.

I had already expressed suspicion of Elli several times. here, Here, Here, Here.

Unfortunately that post that reads awfully (How so? Bad grammar, like scum would talk? Commit here) was exactly how it looks to me: a stream of consciousness. So no, there was no justification in that opening line. Read through my posts where I've been against Elli several times, then explained my change in vote.

Not only that, the whole thing reads quite horrible: HAY WHYS EVERYONE NOT LYNCHING K4U YOU ALL ARE INDECISIVE WORTHLESS TOWNIES oh wait hey here's some justification for Elli-Scum NEVERMIND LETS VOTE ELLI LOL.

That's the best you've got?

The fact that you were second-last on the wagon is quite notable as well, as was the fact that you were first on an earlier attempt at an Ellibereth wagon, before moving to K4U, and going as far as to state that you're moving her up to L-2 (*gasp*!), as if it actually mattered on D1.

Strawman at the end there too. But the key issue is that you pretend I didn't always have the two of them in my sights as two good possible lynches. You act as if voting kitten meant I thought elli town.




Of the two or three points that were actually valid, I think they mostly stem from you misunderstanding me, or attempting to portray me in a poor light. I am just gonna say that a Kitten/Wicked scumteam is looking pretty likely. And I'm going to read more into that.

[Oman]

Goddamn it!

[Oman]

FTR, Moriarty's moving into that special susupicious-across-replacements place in my mind. I'm glad I forgot who she was for a minute: it's given me perspective.

Confirm what this means?

[Oman]

Totally happy with this wagon:

Unvote; Vote: Moriarty147

That's three?

[Oman]

So you voted me after not reading the thread.

Awesome play there.

[Oman]

Nice misrep, Oman, and shows you haven't actually read any of my posts above.

It's not that I haven't read the thread, it's that I can't get a read on Leafsnail and have to do a couple rereads (him in isolation, him in context, etc), before I could confidently say if he's Scum or not.

One: holy cow, you're committed to do several rereads per person.

Two: Responding to your post almost line by line should give the inkling that I've read it.

[Oman]

Thesp is starting to twig me out. But I think i'm just getting paranoid here. Disregard it for now, but I will review it as more is posted.

[Oman]

I really don't care if we hang her or Wick today, but I'd like to get an actual wagon on one of them.

<3

[Oman]

No. Not OMGUS. I gave Oman an FoS for performing an example of this way before Oman even suspected me. If anybody is guilty of OMGUS in this situation, it's him.

Hillarious. I guess nobody told you how I feel about OMGUS. Although it tends to invalidate a case, it usually comes from townies.

This was actually funny enough that I spat beer on my keyboard. Awesome work there.

[Oman]

Oman, what's with the pom-pom's? It's starting to seriously creep me out.

I'm a very social mafia player, and tend to happily cheer on someone I think has done the right thing (as I did with CTD earlier).

I like being social and happy when I play.

[Oman]

Just here to say: "hehe tanned genitals".

Other than that I have little to add to this latest round.

[Oman]

Oh Ythill I thought I had, thats my mistake.

Of course, with 4 votes on him I'd expect more of a climb were he town (due to mafia trying to push the lynch) I know that is pretty archaic reasoning, and has fallen out of favour, but I find it moderately accurate.

Unvote Vote Wicked

Claim please.

[Oman]

I made a banner for wicked but I lost it.

It said "Come play with us, we're not that mean!"

[Oman]

I'm considering believing this claim....standby to standby.

unvote

[Oman]

Sorry guys, let me go over this: 1. Vig is a dangerous claim. If he's lying and there is a vig, he dies tonight.

2. As a vig he is dangerous to town and scum alike right now, but the game is balanced for him (we hope)

3. if he were scum fakeclaiming, I see him doing it in the early posts. Claiming vig isn't an easy thing, the delay makes sense.

4. The number of NK's gives us a very good indication tomorrow of the truth.

On the Other Hand:
1. SK SK SK SK SK SK
2. SERIAL KILLER
3. The kill not going through is a HUGE coincidence.
4. Lynching him (regardless) gives us another piece of info. If he is SK/vig Pman is either Godfather, Bulletproof, or we have a doctor or roleblocker. Obviously that is not a great advance on where we are now, as that is an easy assumption in a mini normal.
5.

On the hands I've got here: The SK can't afford to keep killing townies. Already if he is an SK: we have (Estimated) 6:1:3 That is getting down to the uncomfortable numbers for an SK. He has to start killing mafia ASAP

AS WELL AS

being smart with his vote (i.e. lynching scum gives him the oportunity to hunt power roles at night. Lynching town means he has to kill scum in the night or be in effecting KILO (Kih-Low, like LYLO but for killing )



I vote we keep him around, but keep an eye on him, if he starts playing silly buggers with his kill or votes, we take him out because then mafia is going to win anyway. If he and we play optimally, killing mafia is the outcome either way.

[Oman]

Thesp I'm thinking that we need to let wicked live right now.

Vote Moriarty

[Oman]

Vig is a dangerous claim. If he's lying and there is a vig, he dies tonight.

Why do you consider it dangerous in a game with only one NK? From mafia's PoV, the lack of a second kill suggests that there is no vig/SK even more heavily than it does for town.

If Wick is the vig, why did he need to post a huge case that was never going to get anyone lynched? He wouldn't feel such an intense need to sway the town if he had a town kill of his own. He's asking us to believe that his crap case not only found scum, but made them so nervous that he was roleblocked? If scum were that nervous about Wicked, why not just kill him? If they were that accurate at sniffing out power roles, why did MME die?

The unifying answer is that Wicked is lying. My vote stays.

Quoted for truth.

His claim just doesn't make sense. I find the chance of there being a roleblocker+the chance they would use it on him very unlikely. I think there might be a small chance he is a serial killer, but if we lynch serial killer, that is somewhat good too. I find it very hard to believe that he is town. I think the vig claim was a scare tactic (maybe even him waiting as long as possible to claim, knowing we were close to the deadline)

Unvote vote Wicked

I concede my mistake.

Also:

Arg! Oman, why do you vote Moriarty right after I unvote him?

Because I hate you obvobv (JOKES! I LOVE YOU RLY!)

[Oman]

If that was a hammer, I'm proud.

[Oman]

Bah! No where am I going to post random pictures?

GO TOWN!

[Oman]

Damn you Thesp, last time I play with you, scumbag!