Mini 885 - Boom, Game Gutshot/Abandoned by Mod!

[Civil Scum]

Hey everybody.
Don't all greet me at once!

Reading through the game now and will probably post some thoughts.

[Civil Scum]

Alright, well glad to be here, thank you atleast to arafan. Through I may end up voting for you before this day is over!

Happy mafia-obstructing Holidays, and test-times!
Problematic in my last game as well. Like a half-populated game..
Oh well, where was I, what am I doing....oh yes! Sorry if it's a bit disjointed, but it was a lot to look at and it's very late.

SCVM

This has got to be the longest I've seen a player remain so intentionally silly and obstructive in a game. In addition to not being in any immediate danger of being lynched. Might turn out to be the focal point for a lot of analysis and much of the early game. In my mind, probably what 'idiot' wants (this might help, only referring to him deragatorily, or maybe never mentioning his name again and ignoring every single thing he says). I remember someone saying they hadn't played a game where policy lynching non-constructive/active players ever was neccessary. I have! We used to call them, rudely I know, "baggage." Usually new people with 4 words to say when pressed, "I am not mafia." The idea is the same. When it comes down to having to make the right decisions, you absolutely cannot have these people in the game. 'There's a reason policy lynching exists,' maybe Hito said this I don't want to go back and find it. But it is absolutely true.


He's not in immediate danger of being lynched, for being scum or on policy, which I find strangest of the entire "episode." I'm leaning towards town for scvm, but not because of anything he's done or said. (I mean, unless I'm missing something, in practice he's basically stuck with xvart and buttonmen since page 1).

We WONT GET INFO from lynching 5cvm. It would be useful ONLY if he was scum. And he is not. I can read that much from his behaviour. He wouldn't be bold enough to pull such a stunt if scum. I'm sure.

Alright, this first part is ignoring the scvm-gorillaz connection, and some of the argument around aranfan. And I think it would reflect on hito as well, and buttonman. In fact, I think this is just a very lousy, very inaccurate statement. Knowing anyone's alignment allows you to go back over the game and look at how people treated/reacted to just about anything. And the second part, hito adressed this already, but this second part is just as unfounded. I somehow doubt that you can really believe this. You can say, 'my read on scvm is town.' But you've stated it unequivocably. 'He isn't scum'!?? At any rate, if u say this while buying into the attack on gorillaz's confidence, well, that would be bad news.

Seems to me that strangeness follows scvm wherever he goes this game.

Initially, I really didn't like hito's attack on scvm. Not that it was bad in and of itself, but before that point, it seemed like he was gliding a little, popping in then and again and making very reasonable sounding posts. But on page 8 he says that he's missed a lot and "been out of this game". At this point, instead of coming up with something, or really trying to catch up with the discussion, he goes with the lynch scvm mission which we have here today.

Why are we not voting 5cvm. To everyone not voting 5cvm: What are you waiting for, exactly?

There are many answers to this question, and they are all obvious.


That said, hito has posted several things that I generally (and specifically) agreed with during my read-through

That is a really really stupid thing to be sure of. Are you stating, right now, that you are going to treat 5cvm as confirmed town all game? What magical powers gave you that one, exactly?

Funny, and spot on.

And for the record, while I'm happy to lynch 5cvm

regardless of his alignment

, I'm growing increasingly sure that he probably is scum here. This pattern, of let's ignore him -- wagon building -- wagon dissipating is what I would expect - as scumbuddies bus him before realizing, hey, we'll actually be able to keep this loon alive.

The bolded phrase always worries me a bit...and I've found a way to explain people's actions around the wagon suggesting that scvm is actually a townie. I mean, look. He's absolutely anti-town being a dueche. And he may not get lynched right now. There's like 4 people pushing for him to be kept alive. THAT doesn't seem odd to anyone else?

I know you've discussed/defended this briefly, saying you'll keep an eye on him, and I can understand you not wanting to go at odds with your main supporter on the policy lynch, but brosius came into the game, said two things, and basically slid right into your pocket (and there he remains). One would think you may have begun questioning this, or protesting in the slightest, between then and now.

The disagreement between you and those defending scvm (and his play! An absolutely inordinate number of players imo!) is interesting. You say the burden of proof is on them, because your position is one of dead-lock pro-town policy. But this situation we have is a little unique. And at this point, I can't say I like your commitment to treating it like a 100% run-of-the-mill policy lynch scenario. And that's where some of the disagreement with you is coming from.

Another problem I've had with your argument hito, whenever someone says 'look, scvm's doing better' or 'if we wait, he might improve, or he'll grow tired of his own shenanigans and might become productive' etc. (button's been in his corner, in that sense, for the longest I believe), you maintain that he is not going to change his habits ever in this game. Neither side of this hope/argument can be substantiated or really argued, but hito consistently sounds as if he

doesn't want

that to happen---for scvm to play differently or contribute useful information. And the question there would be, why?

It would be interesting to go back and see who really has been circulating around the wagon, and/or getting off/back on...that is, after we know his alignment. Before we do, what exactly can be learned from examining these behaviors cannot be known. Again, I can't believe what humble said about scvm's alignment not mattering.

Xvart, gorillaz, buttons... having so many people flatly defending scvm like so many attorneys (and that his lynch didn't happen/is not happening as easily as it could have) makes me lean town for scvm. And I'd have to go over the thread again (when it's not really really late) and see who looks the worse for this. I really didn't like how xvart just left the policy-lynch position. He waffled about it before, but then seemed on board, and then got off again. Almost like seeing he could get away with leaving scvm alive (or following the lead of his partner who had already been doing it).

And there was this I really didn't like, Post 279

Now on to business: Since my concern about TheButtonmen stalled out several days ago I am going to unvote him and move on to more pressing concerns.

Pretty please correct me if I'm wrong but... your case stalled, no one cared, a BW didn't start, so you decided to go elsewhere?

So, it must have been the concern stalling out in your head?...that's a pretty weak concern to have over 250 posts into the game :/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I realize this is my opinion replacing in, had I been playing the whole time I could better understand some of the aggravation, and I probably would have been calling for scvm's lynch as well. But at this point, I'm leaning town because so many people have refused to vocally and votily remove him as an element of the game. And the scum (probably two of them) have been pro-keeping-scvm-alive. --Side note: do we know the roles? How many scum are there? AND How do you do an ISO view on a player?

I'm jumping ship on this 5cvm wagon. As I thought more and more about it, my justification is absurd, that being the connection between 5cvm to Evilgorillaz would require that 5cvm is town. Lynching a townie to maybe prove someone is scum? I'm embarrassed I even thought such a thing.

Maybe this was addressed, but it caught my attention. Not scummy perhaps, though certainly some spotty/faulty reasoning. Noted.

Everything you said there about Scott is perfect, and what I said in the first part of this reply before I read your post. Scott seems to be taking the easy road out and going for the easy 5cvm lynch which seems all too convinient for him, especially with just replacing in.

This basically sums up brosius' play so far. And was absolutely my feeling when I read his first post. It is forgivable to a degree (Damn you scvm). But scott showed little interest in pursuing anything but this incredibly easy road. And I know its a MS "no-no", but rite was flying pretty low there for most of the game. I should say Scott showed little interest
EXCEPT for when he decides that gorrilaz has outside knowledge of alignment, and then he proceeds with that attack.

He is defending 5cvm very strongly. His lazy attempt of scumhunting is everyone on the 5cvm wagon.

If 5cvm flips town (and EG as scum knows that 5cvm is not town) he can get town points since he defending 5cvm, and go after people on the wagon. It is the extreme confidence that he has speaking of 5cvm as if he is town that disturbs me. I think he has more information than the rest of us.


This whole post reeks of you KNOWING 5cvm is going to flip town. I don't think a townie would be so confident in this

You didn't get very specific with this. But writing an entire post under the impression of a personal read could create this. Especially when it's a read you already voiced, and defended respectably I thought. Also, you sound like you stumbled upon this just now when this point had already come up and been dealt with to some degree, lending credibility to earlier claims that you have been skimming the thread. Also, if you think that scvm might be scum, your two foci are mutually exclusive, given the evidence you're working with. So do you think there's a good chance for scvm to be scum? Or is he iredeemable? How is he damaging the game right now such that you have to hang him? And is your belief in your case on gorillaz enough to grant scvm more air-time? Or grant him innocence?

I think that scvm's hijinks have led to either easy-wagoning or easy-defending. Interesting, but pretty annoying. And if he is scum, I'm not sure what it will lead to. I just feel like the scum benefit more form keeping him alive if he is a townie than they do if he isn't. Which is generally why I think he's still alive and people are defending him. (For one, any scum defending scvm=scum, is sticking their head str8 out. So far, they get townie-cred either way. A "nearly" useless investigation by a cop- especially if scvm gets lynched later. Continued uncertainty. The list goes on, far outweighing simply keeping one of their number around) Hito's, scum reluctance to vote a buddy in this situation, doesn't fit as easily. Maybe it's just opinion? But I expect to stick to that read unless something drastic happens.

Squirrel has been awfully quiet, and confid needs a replacement obviously. I only noted with him that I generally agreed with confidanon's points about scummy behavior vs. anti-town behavior, which were getting mixed up in the discussion, and I have a good feeling about him. I hardly noticed chibo on my read-through. And I don't know if that's good or bad yet.

And lastly, the single worst thing anyone has posted-award has to go to aranfan. Suddenly voting for a lurker who was being replaced could just be newbie antics, or a newb-tell, but to explain it or write it off as something good for the town (or a favor to the mod wtf), that was just waaaaay off.

So I guess, replacing can be really disorientating haha, but atm I'd be willing to vote for aranfan, hito, brosius (rules out hito in my mind) or one of the people who has defended scvm- especially anyone defending a person who initially called for not lynching him (if someone can make a good case, or if I come up with one after reading again, thinking xvart maybe).

Hito-Aranfan possibly?

Hopefully, if he doesn't get lynched, scvm will succumb to his concience!
There were somethigns that made me think if scvm were town, he should be defending aran and gorillaz, although I can't remember where or what they were now (and this was also dependent on him actually trying to figure things out or win the game as a town player)[/u][/b]

[Civil Scum]

Alright hito, but how is that any different from when someone gets replaced?
Isn't that exactly what you do?
Regardless of if you think the person they were replacing was scummy or not?
Which isn't even the case here, scvm's alignment does come down to a lot of WIFOM.

You've made some good arguments for lynching scvm, but I feel it's all you've been doing now. At the same time, if I'm right and the scum are just fine with keeping him alive, then we should lynch him just for that reason.

Who are you suspicious of, FOR BEING SCUM?

Given the circumstances, yes I would give scvm a chance at that point.
Would you tell scvm's replacement, 'Sorry, appreciate that you are going to try and play, but the person you replaced was being a complete jack ass, so sorry, you got's to go!' ?

[Civil Scum]

The buttonman's fervent opposition to you is greatly over-simplified. But I think I made some points which you basically told me I would need to restate if I wanted you to reply to them.

I'd keep scvm around too if he shows willingness to use his vote realistically. Especially if he's willing to vote for who I want lynched once I think I've got someone.

Are you saying that my original reason for voting was spotty/faulty reasoning or my explanation of my unvote was spotty/faulty? If it is the former, than I wholeheartedly agree, hence my unvote.

No. I'm saying the "logic" you used was flawed. It's just a matter of how you're looking at it. You said it was lynching a townie (scvm) to confirm the guilt of gorillaz. But you can just as easily look at it as lynching an unknown to learn something about a person's alignment, a someone who is either a 1) non-productive, anti-town townie or 2) scum. So why would you lynch someone else, who atleast is trying to contribute and may be a townie, over scvm? There's problems with your scenario either way.

Aranfan has looked scummy, but I would want to hear more from him before a lynch.

Not the biggest fan of hito but I'll go ahead and do this for now

vote: scott brosius

But yes, there are several people I would be willing to vote for here. But not everyone, that would be ridiculous. Xfart.

[Civil Scum]

It's anti-town (or anti-the-game-of-mafia) to claim scum. Definitely, as a rule, anyone doing so should be killed. And I probably would have been pushing for his lynch had I been in the game this whole time.

Even if he were scum, there's no guarantee that he's naming scum buddies. And if you're going with that, you'd have to lynch either xvart or buttons after lynching scvm.

It could be scum-suicide (it's not working very well), or team-suicide. But there's no possible evidence. Although, neither buttons nor xvart are keen on lynching him atm.

It's anti-town becuase it can't be argued and it completely goes against the mechanics and basis of the entire game.

[Civil Scum]

In other words, it's only anti-scum if he is indeed outing his teammates

[Civil Scum]

Probably, yes. But if you're meaning to use that against me, skip it.

Chibo said that scvm was behaving anti-scum. I clarified.

I thought I'd explained it already, but here you go. I think scvm may be a townie, and I've come into the game finding it very odd that so few people are supporting the policy lynch. I think there's a greater chance that the scum have been in and out and dancing and circling around the debacle than there is of scvm being scum. Which is why I'd prefer a different lynch. The 'keep-scvm-alive movement' thing for example...Damn, I'm sure I covered this already. And obviously, I've been removed from scvm's annoyance and the length of anybody else's frustrations.

Why do YOU seem oblivious to accusations that have been made against you?

[Civil Scum]

It's just you and hito left on the wagon right?

[Civil Scum]

Alright, I apologize for overposting. By my computer a lot, and used to 9 person games. This pace of not having a post from half of the players in two days isn't quite my speed.

I realize it can't be both sides of the scvm deal the way I'm looking at it, or totally one side etc, and I can't be sure which is which until people on either end start to die.

unvote

vote: hitorogoshi

I'm not throwing brosius completely out of the window, but a major piece of people's case against him looks equally bad for hito.

Who: 1) Admitted to being behind in reading the game in the same post that he started pushing for the scvm policy lynch.

2) Has pursued the policy lynch and its attendant arguments in lieu of all other scum-hunting efforts.

3) Was too comfortable letting Brosius tail him around for the better part of brosius' time in the game

4) Who has only taken one position on anything the entire game.
'Just because other people are taking the RVS too seriously doesn't mean I have to'

5) Scummiest----> Arguing against anyone "pro-scvm", but never thinking it scummy of any of them.

I'm thinking that aran-hito is a distinct possibility. And I'm not aversed to an aranfan lynch first.

[Civil Scum]

You are taking the hypothetical too far

I don't think so. His "alter ego" Milkshake is a competent player. And if he said he was going to play seriously, and then actually made good on that promise, I would say it is basically the same thing as a replacement.

[quote="hito"
I said that I HAD been behind. It's a guarantee that if I post, I've read every post in the thread. I will never ever make a post while I have not read posts in the topic
[/quote]
You'll forgive me if I don't take anyone's guarantee at face value. Like, 'I guarantee that I know that scvm wouldn't be behaving like this if he were scum.'
-Humble

[quote="hito]
Are you seriously saying that I should have stopped lynching the player I most believed should be lynched because someone else agreed with me??
[/quote]
This is absolutely not what I meant or said.

besides humble's cryptic 'I CAN MAKE HIM PLAY' like some sort of helen keller

lmao

It becomes a scumtell for reason 5. You never pursue anyone for disagreeing with the policy lynch.

Because it's the only thing the town should be doing

EXACTLY! This is it! But you obviously forgot you should have felt this way during some of the arguing. But it never occurs to you and you never find anyone scummy for arguing that he shouldn't be killed. You completely goofed.


Can we get a prod on scvm?
Humble poirot?

He seems to agree with whoever posted most recently. I think that's a sign of someone who isn't bothering to scum-hunt because he doesn't need to.

Seems to agree with or only mention recent posts. This is a good point.

[Civil Scum]

because I don't suspect everyone not doing it of being scum?

No, again you are twisting the argument, making them outrageous. You and xvart have a habit of doing this. It is slightly annoying. It didn't look like you suspected ANYONE.

So you are suggesting that everyone not voting for scvm just doesn't understand what policy lynching is?

So, no more of this cutesy 'I think he's town' garbage - why are you really not voting 5cvm?

Great. So NOW you're going to use the whole thing on me

[Civil Scum]

B-b-b-b-buh-buh-but m-m-m-my-my mama said-my-my-my mama-my mama said [stutter/stutter...inflate and exagerate an argument so I can pretend to defeat it] aka- a type of strawmanning.

Were you going to come and stutter, or did u just disappear suddenly?

[Civil Scum]

Also, you seem inclined to believe that scvm flipping scum somehow allows a scum-link to be made to his "protectors".

Care to explain this? Because unless I'm missing something a lot of the case against gorillaz relied on scvm being town. Yet you'll be willing to infer people's alignment afterwards, and you're on record thinking that scvm is scum and that's why he's being defended or not lynched.

It looks bad from either perspective. Scum could just as easily be not voting for a townie as they could be not voting for a teammate. Which is why, in this situation, which way you're leaning on that dpends on your impression of scvm.

Or take it like this, 'enough with the meanie garbage - why do you say you feel scvm is scum?' Now that's a really stupid question, isn't it?

And my last post should have had this after it:

[Civil Scum]

So basically you are for lynching anyone?

Sorry, this was it. I took this as a lowly-weak-attack on myself. Addressed it when I signed my post Xfart. Didn't appreciate it very much, that's why that slipped in there.

Really in reference to hito, who's case is coming together nicely I think.

I have a tendency to be overly-defensive, confrontational, over-aggressive, loud, and abrasive whenever I play this game. If that is offensive to your "palette", I'd hope you don't let it affect your considerations of any merit a case of mine might have. I don't think hito himself is considering calling my case weak at this point. Though I guess I'll see. He probably just went VLA for Christmas.

Err, anyways, Is that the only thing you intend to mention?

[Civil Scum]

If the other half of the players in the game regularly posted relevant content (like they're supposed to), that would probably curb my activity to a reasonable level. Talking over me works irl.

If you want to call this a scumtell you have to tell me a.) why we should keep an anti-town player alive (and you have repeatedly shown you understand how anti-town 5cvm is) and b.) when you think we should lynch 5cvm.

I explained, quite well if I may say so, why it's a scumtell. I did miss these questions. Frankly, I assumed the rest of the paragraph was about those posts and that argument, which Frankly, I've heard enough of. Actually, I've already kind of answered these two.

Alright, allow "protectors" to also include those unwilling to lynch him after he's been claiming scum.

And you did state that you felt scvm was scum and that's why he wasn't dying, and that once he was dead you would then start inferring. But at that point, you're already compeltely operating on inferences about scvm's alignment. A dilemma certainly.

Tommy again showing up with some good work. I tried to explain to you hito why it feels like hitting your head against a wall, or why maybe some of the players are resisting you on this. You're still after it like it's a 100% policy lynch, and it isn't 100% a policy lynch situation anymore. Maybe it was at first. When he first started claiming scum, why didn't EVERYONE go after him. It's still very TROUBLING to me seeing that you never did/still haven't come up with anything remotely solid on any other player.

As far as you still not taking any position other than this lynch, I also didn't like how you commented that you 'liked my style' after my first post, but didn't say if you had any initial impression of my alignment. Which isn't absolutely neccesary or even expected. But after my read through, it struck me a little like pandering. Maybe that's not the right word, but without definition, example, and possibly in hopes of recruiting me to your policy lynch crusade.

In answering the rest of your post,

I think that his scum buddies are not voting for him

what makes you so goddamn sure that scvm is scum? If you can PLAINLY see he's anti-town, if he is a townie isn't it just as reasonable to believe the scum wouldn't want him dead in that circumstance either. Or that they can get credit for defending him. Or that leaving him around is a huge distraction, or that...insert reason here.

The answer is primarily, like yours was, 'personal read'. The difference is, your personal read is the only thing you're operating on anymore, unreasonably I think -> total lack of willingness to grant scvm any leeway or any chance at redemption. You've taken this personal read, which is most of what your struggle is based off of now, and built your entire game off of it. At the same time, you've given an alarmingly small amount of thought to the actual logical implications of this basis and the scumminess of every other player, or any other player's actions. You rarely comment on them, you don't go out of your way to find them, you just keep banging your head against the wall. I told you first why it wasn't working like you thought it should, and then I told you why it's so scummy the way you've done it.

Scvm hasn't posted in like 5 days. I'd almost prefer a replacement at this point. Although I am interested to hear scvm's attitude when/if he returns. I'm fairly comfortable with a slot I have a read on being replaced. Probably so is any other townie feeling that way. Like you said, not EVERYONE who is not for the lynch can be scum.

If scvm is a townie, there's no longer any sense wasting that "slot", as you kept calling it. Although, if he were actually scum, then he'd be getting away with murder if we kept him alive. And personally, if he flipped scum, I think you'd look just as bad as anyone not voting for him.

[Civil Scum]

Well, keep up the good work then. Posts like that should help...a whole bunch!

Except you should probably respond to this point:

hito wrote:
What the hell? No I don't. Me not thinking that is what you're calling the scummiest thing about pushing a policy lynch.

Np- This was the context:

Civil Scum 417 wrote:
Also, you seem inclined to believe that scvm flipping scum somehow allows a scum-link to be made to his "protectors".

What the hell? No I don't. Me not thinking that is what you're calling the scummiest thing about pushing a policy lynch.

Protectors meaning those voicing support OR unwilling to vote, hence the quotation marks.

Where I was referencing this:

When I know the 5cvm flip I'll be more willing to try to draw inferences about peoples reactions.

And the general sense that hito would go after people who got off the policy-lynch wagon or followed around after the scvm lynch goes through.

Just in case this is somehow still unclear. You never said to yourself or anyone, 'hey, why the fuck are you defending him!?'
Now, when 'Scvm is anti-town' (which you kept saying even as he was improving) is such a fact in your head, you should just as clearly see why scum have an interest in keeping him ALIVE regardless of alignment.

I don't think there's a way you can explain taking the scvm=anti-town basis you've worked with and not carrying it just one logical step further. Even if you believed he were scum, you could easily have gone after other people as well.

Tommy:
The arafan case is a couple things. A nice mix of strange stuff, bad stuff (like when he instantly gave scvm a pass as the jester and not scum), an assortment of newb-scum tells.

I'd go onboard for an arafan lynch. Just as long as hito doesn't get away!

Top scum:
hito and arafan

Tied for third:
brosius and humble

Warm holiday fuzzies for now:
Tommy
Buttons


After rereading a little, xvart's post 391 sounds legitimate. Really legitimate actually. So he's dropping out of third. Not real sure about everyone else. Having more than 12 posts to look at may help.

I think there is at least 1 scum on the 5cvm wagon. I don't think I am alone in this thinking. xvart/you both stated hito was being too opportunistic. I kinda think scott/arafan/confidanon were being more opportunistic, but w.e

1 scum in a 4 people waggon? Wow... what are the odds?

Humble sounds like a good/competent player, but his contributions, both in amount and quality, don't seem up to snuff. On my first read I thought gorrilaz caught too much flak for this. The start of a wagon basically. He's kinda of picking up on a sense of scvm's wagon, which seems townish to me. It is a stupid thing to say, 1 scum on the wagon, but it's like saying 'there's something scummy about the situation.' If he had said, 'I think there may be 2 scum in those 4,' someone would have probably commented on that number.

And I especially didn't like how humble acts as if he's making a good/strong point here in this post.

Wouldn't mind a post from him and brosius sometime.

[Civil Scum]

Odd that brosius jumped all over gorillaz for thinking that scvm=townie but was fine with humble saying that he knew it for a fact.

I think tommy has some questions for you Brosius.

[Civil Scum]

Yeah 370, hito barked at him for "magical powers", but didn't opt for anything other than sarcastic derision.

hitogoroshi... We WONT GET INFO from lynching 5cvm. It would be useful ONLY if he was scum. And he is not. I can read that much from his behaviour. He wouldn't be bold enough to pull such a stunt if scum. I'm sure.

Therefore. Lynching 5cvm is the most useless move even though he might be anti-town all game. Lets lynch scum before he hurts us more than he has already.

In the same post that he said this no less:

Dude... as scum or town... you have played as if you were trying to lose... so if you hadn't. The only thing that would make sense would be for you to be a jester.

And no comment on any of this from brosius. Of course, it could "just" be another instance of him not following the thread very carefully.

[Civil Scum]

Whoa, slow down there xfart. I can't be suspicious of 4 or 5 people?
You accuse me of poitning too many fingers in the same breath you ask why I don't go and vote gorillaz?

Onto some other nonsense!

So hito, if 5cvm flips scum are you going straight for Thebuttonmen and/or me tomorrow, since 5cvm claimed us as buddies?

Hito's right about scvm's EARLY claims being null. But I would lynch one of you if scvm flipped scum.

Hito:
It sounds buddy-buddy, but it's not hardcore buddying or anything like you are trying to paint it. Is any form of agreement buddying as well?

Once you come to terms with how your policy lynch mission is (has for some time) pettered out, maybe then you will share some of your private thoughts with us?

I'm ignoring scvm?

Alright less nonsense pls, and more posts from humble and brosius in particular.

[Civil Scum]

It is WIFOM, or a null-information setting as hito called it. But, since there's a chance that scvm did it and broke the game outting his buddies (and it's not a remote chance, its a somewhere-in-the-middle chance), I would test it and see if it ends the game. That's difficult for you to understand from my position?

Lot's of people weren't on the list. Lot's of people aren't posting. I can't say I have any considerable read on lots of players. You've only mentioned like 3 players in your last 5 posts. When I made the 'all players defending scvm' comment, that was my first post mostly, and I think I've gotten a better handle on it since then.

My concern is you have given the appearance as to being willing to vote for anyone, depending on how the wind blows. You've got your fingers in every cookie jar.

Is that an appearance to you? Cause it's obvious that I haven't been willing to vote for anyone. Other folks are far guiltier of BW'ing than me. Which cookie jars? WTF, cookie jar am I in right now.

You're never sure about anyone, so then you are a little suspicious of everyone. That's not unreasonable. I usually feel that way after a missed lynch. But saying that, and then suggesting that it's bad/scummy that I'm suspicious of "half the players", certainly you can see why this is a dumb fuckin thing to say.

You're climbing back onto the list here with this bull shit.

Come on XFART (I'll test what you said about insults if you don't mind), how bad are mis-reppng me right now? [/rhetorical]

Maybe...just maybe...you should have picked an easier/better target when you're trying to pull a shit case out of your ass... ??? You give this appearance, to me.

[Civil Scum]

EBWOP:
I should say "far far far" guiltier. Aranfan, for example. Who you seem curiously uninterested in...

Gorillaz post, his first in a while, is rather unsightly, but since I'm pretty sure that hito is scum, I'm willing to let it slide for now.

Anyone can read the game, xfart, and see you are making this BW accusation up. I haven't BW'd anything. You made it up, then you embellished. Doesn't look very good.

[Civil Scum]

Sorry, last one quickly.

Also, I have to point out 'gone after others'. I do THINK outside of what I post, you know. But what do you mean by, gone after?

Like when you bluntly acknowledged that you never took the basis of your gameplay and went one logical step with it (a step which imo is one of the FIRST that a townie would have made).

Like here,

You're calling me scummy for not taking the next step and saying that people not voting him are scum. I disagree, because I think many players here don't understand exactly what makes a policy lynch tick.

after which you suggest that everyone (?), besides me (?), aren't voting with you simply because they don't understand the idea policy lynching.

I would very much like to hear those private thoughts that, you promise, exist.

Even though, you kind of already outlined what they were...

...because I don't suspect

everyone

not [voting for scvm] of being scum?

My emphasis. Just wanted to show hito's strawmanning again. I never said everyone, I said anyone. Blatant defensive strawmanning, oh well. I fear I'm becoming redundant. Although, I'd like to hear how bad everyone else thinks xfart's last post was.

And xfart also didn't have a problem with humble "knowing" scvm is a townie, or aranfan immediately writing scvm off as a jester. He just consistently wants to lynch gorillaz for some apparently uncertain reasons. Oh, and he's trying to build a fantastically shitty case on me.

[Civil Scum]

Not liking your usage of "Ad Homminem", since I'm not using it to further or support an argument.

[Civil Scum]

is that you are suspicious of both those arguing for and those arguing against 5cvm's lynch.

I'm sorry, these are mutually exclusive somehow? In theory or game mechanics? It's wrong for me to feel that way? You two are full of crap?

I recognized this "flaw" in my reasoning/observations:

I realize it can't be both sides of the scvm deal the way I'm looking at it, or totally one side etc, and I can't be sure which is which until people on either end start to die.

Unless my memory fails me, buttons backed scvm first. Gorillaz and xfart followed suit later. This looks better for buttons than either of those two, imo. And, aranfan, I was wrong before, it's entirely possible that xvart took that road to distance from hito who is over there by himself at the extreme pole of the issue, especially when it was a lynch that could still happen.

When are prods after holidays?
Brosius, humble, squirel

In the meantime, aranfan you can read posts that aren't on this page you know, you just click the other numbers at the bottom or top of this page.

Aranfan, thanks for clarifying xfart's thoughts! Now, what do YOU think about them? That seems curiously absent from lots of your posting. Are you onboard for everything, or do you simply mention it without disagreeing or agreeing with it?

[Civil Scum]

IIRC, Gorillaz was until recently the only one who defended 5cvm.

And myself, and humble, and buttons, and xvart.
So, clearly the above contradicts this:

I generally don't post unless I've read the whole of the thread previous.

On top of which you only comment on recent posts. Meaning that perhaps you read everything, but you just don't care.

I'm on board with the policy lynch on 5cvm.

I know; it's very conveinent for you. Although I fail to see what that has to do with xfart's post or anything else I was talkign about.

You are, however, using it to denigrate xvart and erode his credibility.

That may be open to interpretation, but I don't think I am.

Contradictory opinions usually are mutually exclusive.

Nice simplification. Bravo, really.

[Civil Scum]

Sorry--I must have gotten the impression that you've been fixing to come after me.---> PROBABLY because your last five posts have been largely directed at, or about me. And I haven't liked it. (BW= bandwagon)

I don't recall "backing" 5cvm

Cause u were third on the BW I think, and then you were the first off? So you don't remember being embarrased about wanting to lynch scvm before gorillaz? (A logic I didn't like btw) And if the birthday "present" you gave hito on your birthday wasn't "stupid buddying", then I don't know what is, hito!

I find it suspicious that someone would say I'm willing to vote for at least six people (regardless of the post number or page count), instead of throwing out a FoS on a number of people

Depending on who you are, being suspicious and Fos'ing can be the same thing. I don't Fos much. You can sue me for that, but don't say someone's not using enough Fos'es AND is too willing to vote for too many people. Because that is a stupid contradiction. A contradicition of feelings in the accuser, I might add.

I'll show your mis-reping, okay ready?

That's at least half of the entire town population. My concern is you have given the appearance as to being willing to vote for anyone, depending on how the wind blows. You've got your fingers in every cookie jar.

Where'd you get the "wind blows" thing? Could you show where I've done that? (Don't bother even trying). And this cookie jar thing, jesus that isn't even close to presenting an accurate picture of my behavior, voting, or even thinking. So I'm 'too willing to vote for anyone, and am simply after the town's top suspect or next suspect?' This is what you said. And like I said, anyone can read the game and see that this curious picture you're painting is not true. Soooo whatever, I guess you might be right, I am overreacting... huh, it's a joke? It is a joke isn't it? Haha, good.

ALSO

Willingness to vote for a large number of people is not good since it is easily manipulated by scum since at least half the people on your list are town.

Here it seems like your concern is more that it allows the scum to manipulate a townie into doing their bidding, or giving them viable roads to take. You are trying to make me look bad from both angles using a theory argument. God damn that's stupid.

But hey, atleast you admitted that it's not scummy for my opinions to change with time.

Generally using garbage like this in trying to paint my behavior is

And civil, you're doing it again. You're completely ignoring 5cvm

Not true. Mischaracteriation. Bad Form. Almost as bad as strawmanning in defense (which always seems horribly desperate to me).

accept it and move on to scum hunting, and since you've presumably gathered information on other players through the policy lynch discussion,

this shouldn't be as hard of a step as it seems to be for you.

+++

Gorillaz: I haven't liked how hito has pushed the policy lynch. I didn't really understand the point you were talking about, hito cleared it up a bit. And I meant unsightly, in that it was your first post in a while and didn't contain a whole lot of substance (a la aranfan). Atleast you had an opinion in it though. An opinion other than 'scvm is the jester, let's move on.' Aranfan is a good lynch as well imo.

@ Civil; Would you be willing to join the Arafan wagon?

Yes, he's obviously full of crap. Incidentally, I'd also like to see xvart read and make up his own mind, and then vote for me instead of aranfan.

Votecount?
Prod humble?
Prod Brosisus?

I suppose I'll post after the new year, but there really isn't much to say tbqh

I disagree, there's just a couple people absent and a couple people not paying enough attention.

[Civil Scum]

Ah what the hell.

vote: aranfan

Just for things just on this page. Especially lying about reading the entire thread and saying that until recently only gorilalz had defended scvm. I would expect a townie to say something like 'it was the holidays' or 'i've been busy and haven't been keeping up with the game like I should.' I wouldn't expect a townie to say they've followed the game post by post and then be completely wrong.

Also, he confirmed his random vote in his third post. If the theory's correct that some of it is newb scum-tells, then I should point out this:

I shall now end the RVS:

Confirm Vote: 5cvm

And point out that the wiki page says that this is something that the scum rarely do. (But probably meant statistically, as in 'the scum are less often involved or less often involve themselves in discussion that ends the RVS') - Seriously, I cannot think of one other reason for aranfan to have said this.

A hit is a hit, just that hito may end up with a free-ride from me D-1, and will have come up with some "scum reads" by the time D-2 rolls around. :/

[Civil Scum]

I said it is fine to FoS half the town but it is not okay to be willing to vote for the entire town.

Alright, so where I have

shown

willingness (ie- when I HAVE voted for half the town) then maybe you have a point against me with this.

And you're right about giving scum "options", or expected votes, but so does every innaccurate or misled suspicion any townie has. And you're not right saying that I am anti-town for this reason, otherwise all voting, all posting of thoughts, and all Fos'es would be anti-town.

I don't worry much about getting menipulated because it doesn't happen very often to me.

You have set yourself up at the beginning to be able to switch your vote to half the town, so depending on how the wind blows you can vote for half the town if you wished.

Or I am suspicious of a lot of people and don't know what's going on.

I'm not sure at this point if you are willfully reaching, or are just too intent on finding me scummy. I think you should cast your x-ray vision elsewhere for a bit and see what you come up with.

Are you treating 5cvm as confirmed town forever? If not, what would it take to get you to lynch him? Would you ignore all of your other scum reads on another day to lynch him? Or are you convinced you can divine 'scum reads' from a player who is actively claiming scum? What action could 5cvm do that you would consider scummy?

I don't know.

My problem with the earlier post you've mentioned several times was that it was anything but substantial, and I didn't like the free-pass you gave to people bailing on the lynch, or outright defending scvm (humble! Gorillaz! and several others that I will not renumerate here) on the reasoning that they just didn't understand the policy lynch. Which is why I didn't bother responding to any of those links.

For those questions, I'm thinking about it, and thinking about your post, and squirrel's feeling that he wouldn't want to choose later, but is not going to choose now (I feel a little the same I think). I'm really not sure yet. It may depend entirely on what happens with the D-1 lynch and more discussion.

[Civil Scum]

-- On chibo, incredibly, he was also an early "defender" of scvm.

If [hito is] scum, he plays it pretty straight.

Players who are good at being scum DO exist mind you.

Hito's last post was the first I liked since I entered the game, although I'm adding chibosempai to the list of early opponents to the scvm lynch that he ignored.

I still need to get the chronology straight, and re-read some more, but I'm a little busy with work atm.

Aranfan is not being defended, even in the slightest way, by anyone. If he is scum, it's obvious why, and you can imagine how bad anyone sticking their head out for him might look.

This definite mechanic/pychology is why a scum was probably not the first defender of scvm, but more likely the second or third.

@ Someone who has played more:
In general, is having no "help" in defense or a lot of "help" in defense a tell, or say something about a lynch or town composition ?

Where the hell are brosius and humble?

[Civil Scum]

Hito: since you're voting for aranfan, and buttons is still at the top of your list, you think that his "75% sure aranfan is scum" and his posting habits are a method of 'clean' 'efficient' bussing?

[Civil Scum]

Just shut up. What's another 5 days then. You aren't the slightest concerned that we haven't heard anything but filler-buffer posts from two players in two weeks?

Just shut up and quit protecting xvart.

[Civil Scum]

The accusation was tongue in cheek.

I mean wtf, your suspect looks headed for a lynch, and 5 days? Do you want the deadline to be tomorrow or something and have the lynch not happen!?

[Civil Scum]

Well, thanks humble. You spend 50% of your mega-post busting my balls, and then say you're leaning town on me. I don't have the time to make a mega post of clarifications and all my disagreements with you, or in order to look cohesive for your benefit. I started to do this and it's just going to be ridiculous. So it will have to wait. I am sooo owning this game. Bah. Well, if posting too much or too many suspicions is like not posting, maybe I'll just cut in with a giant post every two weeks. Maybe we should all just do that, and the game will be better off.

It was very nice of you to agree completely with hito on buttonman and to be as sure of hito's innocence as you are of scvm's.

Scvm being innocent following my line of reasoning doesn't specifically and assuredly implicate any other player. Nor does it absolve hito of all possible guilt. You attack me (not as scum but attacking my thinking?) for reasoning on Occam's lines (or too str8 forward and simple) and then you deride me for not doing so.

EG saying he could understand where hito was coming from, but disagreed with the logic--while voting him is indeed pretty terrible. But so was aranfan's claim that he had read every post in the game carefully and saying that (until recently-one page or so ago) only EG had defended scvm. Someone doesn't have to put, 'oh and I think you're scum', after every bit of discussion, but gorillaz does sound as if he knows hito is making a good point, and reasoning from an innocent perspective, but is still voting to lynch him. Reminds me of what brosius said really. A point I was defending EG against becasue I thought many others were just as guilty of it. But this one is quite different. His play in general is reminiscent of aranfan's! ???

---Scum reasoning again from gorillaz---
I didn't particularly like gorillaz jumping in and voting hito, and when I said so, I didn't uderstand his almost yelling at me: 'What's wrong with you, I'm voting on your guy!' Which I would only be 100% okay with if I were scum. Instead of explaining it further, which should have been easy if it were a real reason to vote for hito, he just asks (loudly i might add) how it is that I don't see it.

And at the same time, ANOTHER incredibly conveinent vote from aranfan. So you still think scvm is the jester?

[Civil Scum]

So what do you conclude about Aranfan's latest vote on Evilgorillaz? Is it a last minute bus?

I don't like this question at all. Aside from this speculation being strange and useless, it certainly WAS a last minute vote for the town's other top suspect. It's still unclear how scummy aran thinks gorillaz is. Quite sudden...

Does this have a follow up? What's your point?

Not really, but as xvart would say, I'm filing it away for later.

Humble: I don't plan to quit being a dick, but I am rethinking the scvm-hito thing.
It does make more sense with both of them being townies. However, you consistently seem too overconfident for my tastes.

You have this problem with how I was reasoning, and I can see the contradiction, though it isn't black and white, and I don't think reasoning in that way is bad...but since you know it is, and you've seen whole towns go down these types of dangerous trails...You make it sound like the only sound resoning is 'I'm sure scvm wouldn't be doing this' or 'Hito sounds genuinely like a frustrated townie'. Your (or anyone's?) personal reads are the only things that are valuable?

I got over xvart's fruitless assault, but he has backed out of it with no other reasoning than that I sound townish, the exact view already voiced by both humble and hito. Not a huge huge problem, but

Need to hear from the buttonman, figure he should be excited his suspect is finally on the block. I liked the sound of his posts before he became inactive, and I don't understand hito's suspicion, and especially humble's since I didn't see a good solid individual reason given from him to suspect buttonman.

The last few page's hito has named some suspects and it hasn't seemed inventive.
I'll come back to this later if it still matters D-2.

And actually, I'm starting to think that brosius's play was terrible/scummy before he quit playing. I predict that his replacement will have their hand's full tomorrow.

But for now I'm still thinking aranfan over gorillaz. He blatantly (and admitedly) voted for everyone's other top suspect, and gorillaz's contribution will obviously be better than aran's D-2 (point hito), and we can make up our mind at that point.

prod buttonman?
prod scvm?

[Civil Scum]

Massive SIMUL:

While I would like to get button lynched

Seriously, aranfan, could you explain where this came from?

Arafan wrote:

Congrats, you have eyes. I generally don't post unless I've read the whole of the thread previous.

Arafan wrote:

Considering that I'm the only one still on 5cvm you're probably right. While I would like to get button lynched, EG has the strongest case against him.


A squirrel wrote:

Vote: 5cvm

Yes, aranfan lied (or at the very very least misrepresented) how carefully he has followed the thread. Rather than saying he got busy and wasn't reading like he should have, or even saying it was a mistake and he remembered incorrectly (which happens a lot), instead of anything like that, he lies about it.

I murdered my first wife, beat my second hard enough to send her to the hospital, and just gave the third a black eye. I'm gradually improving; am I a good husband?

I remembered you arguing that there really wasn't a way for scvm to improve from the sort of depth he tossed himself into. Or to convince other's he's a townie after claiming scum (although it seems to have worked in just that way on several people?) Same sentiment/feeling/argument you expressed many weeks ago. Looks legitimate. I'm actually thinking that scvm would have been lynched if you were scum, unless your scumbuddies willfully disagreed with your trying to push for his lynch. But that doesn't seem as likely as your scumbuddies helpign to push the wagon/argument. Again, part of why I feel like brosius is now a much better bet for being scum than you at this point. Unfortunately we're not going to hear from him or his replacement before n1.

Anyways...hurry up aran, you and gorillaz are in a fight to the death!

[Civil Scum]

sorry, EBWOP:

First post above, didn't finish thought about xvart

"I got over xvart's fruitless assault, but he has backed out of it with no other reasoning than that I sound townish, the exact view already voiced by both humble and hito. Not a huge huge problem, but he probably should have other reason's or a more solid explanation than that."

[Civil Scum]

Humble wants a complete rundown of 'everyone's thoughts on everything', before the lynch.

Also, he may believe that having definite personal reads on players is a valid and fantastic way for everyone else in the town to scum hunt. He's played a lot, so we should trust his suspicions (that's a better argument than most), and we should also trust him.

[Civil Scum]

can we please not have an automatic deadline?

[Civil Scum]

I don't like having a deadline on an active game and was a little disappointed to return to mafiascum and see that they are now "mandatory" on newbie games.
When the mod's discretion seems best for trying to make a quality/fair game.

Maybe I don't have enough experience with deadlines online to say if I will like how it affects or increases general activity.

Having a 1.5 week deadline because two people asked didn't seem right to me, but maybe we could vote on it?

I also like knowing how many scum are in the game. I've never played a game irl where that was unknown.



I don't see myself unvoting aranfan at this point.

Probably claim time or you can just promise to provide reasons for suspecting gorillaz and buttonman (out of the blue) later, again.

[Civil Scum]

Definitely the "is" was the first thing I noticed.

Wow, we did a good job! Sorta flies in the face of that whole low-odds-D1-lynching scum thing I always hear about and don't believe.

Don't worry aranfan, being scum (and not scummy) takes a little practice. And this maybe a more astute town than most. Even great scum give off tells!

And yes, I hate being scum too, it IS like a horrible weight and guilt sometimes

But your sins are forgiven you, having confessed and sought redemption...


Not sure for a partner but a quick read through this D-1 monster might shed some light on it. I like aranfan-brosius but not for anything specific at this point.

[Civil Scum]

And conjugating verbs are always hard.

I thought he meant conjugated verbs are always aroused...


Furry: It's always interesting to hear fresh perspectives on early things (even I had forgotten).

Squirrel saying it was random and still coming up with that seemed very pecuiliar to me when I first read the thread. I also initially thought this was going to be a big point, but he/she(?) handles the scrutiny quite well in the next page or two and it really isn't a big deal. It is a null point, unless you can come up with a damning and highly logical reason/motivation for squirrel to have lied about that.

So what were the other reasons you'd be voting for squirrel by that point. Are you looking for a case, a good one, or just small points that can be used against people (or 'could have been used by people against someone' in your words)

Feel free to post more thoughts if you make it in during twilight.

[Civil Scum]

The good thing about having 2 possible lynches (in case EG is town) is that his partners might have not given up on him so there might be subtle defenses

OR

being afraid that he would get lynched in the future they might have bussed him. I guess it will all depend in the manners of the accusations/defenses.

Hmmm you forgot to include attempts at strengthening the the gorrillaz case.

A little weird you missed that. Although your points on gorillaz were respectable, and if you had done it with this sort of malicious intent, then perhaps you wouldn't have mentioned this.

UNLESS

doing so is a subtle and clever of excusing yourself for it.

You're quite right that it will depend on how people defended (if anyone? although the instances of "hand-holding" should probably be looked at) or the timing/flava of the accusations.

If buttonman did bus, when abouts did he, and can we discern when he became "fixed" on voting for aranfan? Also he could say why that was.

I was also going to mention scvm, but it just didn't seem pertinent. And bad play or not, what's 'bussing to win' to a claimed scum? Jeez, I may start to sound like hito after too long.

Real quickly, about how I was 'ignoring' scvm earlier (a negative assertion echoed/parroted by humble without much thought it seemed, since we knew he wasn't being very responsive or helpful, has claimed scum, etc), when scvm said I'd do good to answer a question of hito's, my post began with "No problem". I will again sound like hito and say that I do have thoughts outside of the thread, and in the 'no problem' there was obviously a lot of not ignoring scvm and thinking he is likely town, which I still do. A point against humble I'm thinking. And as if I were the only person "ignoring" scvm. Jimmeny crickets!

Anyways, gonna be quiet and read the thread.

[Civil Scum]

It's safe to say that scvm is not scum with xvart and buttonman.

[Civil Scum]

It's a strange post to say the least, it does look late and weird and bad, at the same time it's not completely out of line with simply missing a vote.

Scvm, if you now intend to be taken seriously, or are going to pretend that someone else doesn't have to do all your leg-work for you, or be believable in any way, you have to substantiate your claims far better than that. I think there's going to be a lot of stuff to go off of D-2, and I suggest you work with it or face a lynch a tomorrow, assuming you don't get vig'd kill. Since we're going into D-2 ahead of the curve so to speak, I would probably support your lynch tomorrow.

You could be claiming scum again here, and be scum for all we know (except I think it unlikely, and humble seems to be sure) or your comment could be a pathetic 'I mentioned aranfan too, I knew it, nyeah nyeah, I knew so'. Either way, I'm beginning to think that your play

hasn't

improved, and you

will

become a detriment, especially as this continues into the later game.

In my last game a player (gayle) claimed scum after his lynch in twilight and was actually a townie and it was interesting. However aranfan sounded genuinely disgusted and upset (and maintained, tried to save face saying, 'well I was serious about that and that') and furthered the discussion with buttonman. As buttonman noted, aranfan probably wrote it in haste and with feeling so it may be accurate, although some WIFOM certainly, and as humble mentioned, it really isn't going to matter.

[Civil Scum]

Scvm, look at us, practically everyone 'knew' aranfan was scum. This one wasn't rocket science or something. But you didn't do anything but vote, the absolute least that you could do. You never pushed the wagon, you didn't help with the case, you didn't give one useful hint of assistance, you didn't try to convince anyone to vote for him. So EVEN if you did 'know' he was scum, great job, you didn't do anything helpful about it and had practically nothing to do with the actual lynch.

The vote was in the same post, I don't know, it looks more like a mistake than anything else to me.

Anways, sorry that's enough out of me. Interested to see what people come up with tomorrow.

[Civil Scum]

Go town!

If the game does break, will someone be so kind as to tell me they were the one who killed me? -.-

[Civil Scum]

Too bad the mod left

Oh well, good game D-1 anyways.

Evil gorillaz was the third scum

, you guys had them both against the wall, part of the reason I was making so much noise

So button, what gave it away? I did keep mentioning aranfan as a second thought, but to be fair you asked me directly about 3 times haha. And I did slip maybe assuming he was scum when I mentioned the other game I had played. But after I spoke in twilight (planning on being around for a long time to come) I was afraid someone might meta me later and see that someone had claimed dead scum in twilight my last game, and then I'd be forced to explain why i believed aranfan's... :/

Anywho, I learned that next time I replace in and both of my scum partners have hung themselves already, I should just bus easily, cleanly, and immediately.

[Civil Scum]

Yeah, hito I was also less than impressed with the number of pr's, especially killing roles. I think I'll only play standard games form here on in.

And for the record, I can't believe scvm didn't get lynched and no one agreed or listened to you on that. Haha --->RIDICULOUS!

And a couple people were voicing agreement with me on you... REDICULOUS


And I'm not sure about that xvart...slow down there...I was going to link you pretty solidly to aranfan D-2, after explaining my turn around on hito and bashing scvm for him a little. You were going down with aranfan, xvart, believe me.

[Civil Scum]

The other guy didn't hammer himself either...

I did slip up pretty bad...

[Civil Scum]

I say it's a draw, or n/a the game was never officially won by any faction and cannot be counted.