Mini 885 - Boom, Game Gutshot/Abandoned by Mod!

[Evilgorrilaz]

Hi

Vote:A_squirrel

[Evilgorrilaz]

Oh dang, I'm confused. Was this night-time start? WHY IS THE MOD DEAD???? I DON'T GET THIS.

[Evilgorrilaz]

VI is pretty much bastard modding. Since our mod is dead I don't see how the mod can go on about bastard modding, so I don't think we have a VI.

Sounds like scum trying to start an early D1 bandwagon, realizing that their evidence is weak, and backing off until they can get a better case built.

Alas, but we all shall file away tidbits of information that we can utilize to start wagons later on in the game.

[Evilgorrilaz]

VI is pretty much bastard modding. Since our mod is dead I don't see how the mod can go on about bastard modding, so I don't think we have a VI.

Can you please explain this further? Pretty much as what you mean by bastard modding, as I've never heard the term.

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... astard_Mod
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Jester

Bastard modding is the mod being a bastard. It rarely happens and our mod is dead, so I really don't see there being a jester.

[Evilgorrilaz]

EBWOP:
It doesn't mean the mod necessarily lies, its just that the jester role really screws with the balance of mafia (its giving town a role that tries to stop town from winning)

Also the whole point about the mod being dead is in jest. Hence, I dislike the whole jester discussion going on right now.

[Evilgorrilaz]

Gone until this weekend for thanksgiving =p

[Evilgorrilaz]

Hey guys, i'm back from thanksgiving. Gimme a bit to reread.

[Evilgorrilaz]

@Arafan
If you seem to support policy lynches (aka magis), why don't you support policy lynching people who are actively trying to confuse town?

@Humble
While I may have joined a long time ago, I was on hiatus for ~a year so forgive me as I am trying to get back into the game. Relearning as I go.

[Evilgorrilaz]

Sorry about that, guys, my time is kinda limited here and my large game is cresting at the same time so I'm being demanded everywhere. I should have something today, and if you want to catch me on AIM and find some sources for my biodiversity paper I'll have something for sure today .

Academic dishonesty yo.

[Evilgorrilaz]

My only question at this point is: do we lynch 5cvm or hope we have a vig or something to kill him at night?

[Evilgorrilaz]

@ Evilgorrilaz

, I of the opinion ending D1 with a policy lynch right now seems to be giving Mafia a free turn. We don;t know enough that I feel like we should bring day 1 to a close but we do know enough I think we can make a choice based on something other then annoyance

Think about it this way.
1) We lynch scum. (Yay)
2) We lynch vanilla townie, which is what probably gets lynched anyways (and it lets power roles have a free night as well).
3) We lynch a power role.
For options 2 and 3, I would much rather lynch one of those that is being anti-town than being pro-town.

And its not based on annoyance. Its based on genuine anti-town play. Its like actively lurking.

[Evilgorrilaz]

Less inclined to go for a lynch on 5cvm now. His last post was very nice.

[Evilgorrilaz]

Oh, is the standard how nice our posts are, and not whether or not they address anything in the game at all? In that case I'm going to stop posting content and just post a picture of a kitten once a day. Town, please ignore my entire lack of participation and let me live for the entire game unmolested, because hey, there's NO WAY scum would try to get away with that sort of thing, right?

the more I read 5cvm, the more sense his posts seem to make (unless he is setting up an elaborate gambit, to which I guess I have fallen for?).

What if 5cvm was modkilled and flipped town? Who would you vote then? What if he flipped jester?

Initially I thought that 5cvm was doing his antic just because we was goofing off and such, but the more I read his posts I guess the better I get them. I don't think 5cvm is going to be modkilled.
1) He is scum and actually outed his scum team
2) He is scum but stated different people to protect his team/confuse the town
3) He is town so the people he calls scum with him (and the SK) are actually the people he finds scummy.
If he is town whatever. But if he is scum, there is so much WIFOM there we don't know what to make of it.
The only way I see him being modkilled is if he is scum and then quotes his role pm.

Right now I am reconsidering who to vote for. And if he flipped Jester/has posting restriction (like has to refer to himself as scum), I hate the mod.

[Evilgorrilaz]

the more I read 5cvm, the more sense his posts seem to make (unless he is setting up an elaborate gambit, to which I guess I have fallen for?).

Care to tell us what sense you've made of it?

Initially I thought that 5cvm was doing his antic just because we was goofing off and such, but the more I read his posts I guess the better I get them.

Again, what have you learned now from his posts?

I don't think 5cvm is going to be modkilled.

Well no duh. If he was going to be modkilled don't you think he would've been modkilled in one of the last ten posts by Boxman? Way to go out on a limb there.

xvart.

I'd rather not assume he will get modkilled. Duh.

I could explain what I think his posts mean, but then again I could be completely wrong because I'm not him.

I think hes just reacting to people reacting to his playstyle, which is why he finds some people (like hito) scummy.

Then again I'm not him, and you would probably be better off asking him what he means.

[Evilgorrilaz]

I'd rather not assume he will get modkilled. Duh.

My point that seem to be missing is if he was going to be modkilled, he would have on the first day when he said I'm scum with such and such people. Talking about 5cvm getting modkilled helps nothing, but whatever.

I could explain what I think his posts mean, but then again I could be completely wrong because I'm not him.

Then again I'm not him, and you would probably be better off asking him what he means.

And I'm asking you, not him, what you think his posts mean. You said they were making sense, and I want to hear what you see in his posts. Please, enlighten me.

xvart.

Point 1) I was answering someone when they asked what I think about 5cvm getting modkilled.
Point 2) I think hes just reacting to people reacting to his playstyle, which is why he finds some people (like hito) scummy.

[Evilgorrilaz]

@ Evilgorrilaz

, I of the opinion ending D1 with a policy lynch right now seems to be giving Mafia a free turn. We don;t know enough that I feel like we should bring day 1 to a close but we do know enough I think we can make a choice based on something other then annoyance

Think about it this way.
1) We lynch scum. (Yay)
2) We lynch vanilla townie, which is what probably gets lynched anyways (and it lets power roles have a free night as well).
3) We lynch a power role.
For options 2 and 3, I would much rather lynch one of those that is being anti-town than being pro-town.

And its not based on annoyance. Its based on genuine anti-town play. Its like actively lurking.

So according to you, we are almost certain to lynch a townie today (you say likely vanilla townie but also leave the possibility of power townie open together completely dwarfing the chance of getting scum. So let me ask you, why wouldn't you vote no lynch since your practically asking someone from the town to be killed.

I really don't want to get into this much more, but whatever.

What the hell do we get from no lynch? No lynch means less information than lynching someone. The way townies find REAL scum is finding connections between scum. First day, all we have to go on is speculation. Only on subsequent days do we get the information on who votes with who with absolute facts (people who are nked, people who are lynched). Lynching a townie is almost always better than no lynch.

Can you say, in the majority of your games, that it is usually scum lynched on day 1? Because I cant.

[Evilgorrilaz]

Reading the thread is key to success. Do it more. Here ya go.

I don't see the dichotomy in that. He is saying he finds two people scummy - one of the two people is scummier than the other. The two people are not mutually exclusive, as he finds both scummy.

It is almost like humble's post where he says he suspects me and arafan, but finds me scummier.

[Evilgorrilaz]

Although I am severely torn about 5cvm, I am not going to vote for him. There are plenty of ways around this situation without lynching someone who could very likely be town, such as a vig kill or an investigation for a reveal later on. The reason I am torn is because I recently defended a similar pattern of behavior (although it was due to incompetence and not being a jackass) and that person turned out to be scum. I'd rather wait for now. I think we can actually do some scumhunting in the meantime.

With that said, I am finding Evilgorrilaz more and more scummy, with his sudden defense of 5cvm and lack of credible explanation for his defense. It is almost like he knows 5cvm is town and is trying to look like he is defending him now when his possible inevitable lynch is just around the corner.

I also find it strange that his current vote is still his original RVS vote, like he doesn't care that much about who actually gets lynched or want to contribute with his vote.

Vote: Evilgorrilaz

Oh, I didn't notice I was still voting teh squirrel.

Unvote

I don't see how my explanation is not credible. I clearly state I think 5cvm's posts are ways of getting people to react.

@Humble
Oh dang, I completely misread your third post. I thought it said what if 5cvm were modkilled and how would it affect your opinion on Arafan.

Also

5cvm has enough cunning to play such a high risk gambyt and succeed by being deliberately scummy?

Even if it isn't that successful, I don't see why he isn't doing it. So from that point, I think it is possible to read him (or at least get reads on other people because of him). For example, I said I find 5cvm's post nice. Hito starts posting pictures of cats in response. Hito's pictures of cats gives you the opinion that hito is town.

5cvm brings up the point about xvart suddenly lurking for a while. Therefore, he finds xvart scummy for it.

[Evilgorrilaz]

Working on a paper/studying for finals so access will be limited until next friday (i'll still be here though).

@Xvart
I am concerned as well about 5cvm's sudden change in style. Initial thoughts agree with you that 5cvm is changing his playstyle after I said I can make sense of his posts.

Evilgorillaz - what is your impression of Aranfan?

I haven't actually been paying much attention to him (tbh I have only been keeping track of 5cvm recently). Reading, gimme a sec.

Okay dislike. He misreads what I write about 5cvm, asks for more evidence or else he will vote me, then drops the point to jump on 5cvm wagon (again) with a lot of people.

A bit too opportunistic on 5cvm wagon. Then again, I dislike everyone on the 5cvm wagon =/

@Humble
I'm confused now. Are you are finding people scummy based on how much emotion they show while advocating a policy lynch?

@Hito
Yes 5cvm claimed scum. But anyone can refer to themselves as scum. Or rather, I can say that I am town and EVERYONE ELSE IS SCUM because I know I am the only 100% guaranteed townie (with the exception of masons, cop, etc.) When I say everyone else is scum, does that mean I truly believe that everyone is scum? Of course not because then the game would be imbalanced. 5cvm might just like saying he is scum.

And I don't see how 5cvm is not scumhunting. For instance, when confidanon and Arafan jump on his wagon, he finds both scummy, but not as scummy as his "scumbuddies and sk" (At least that is what it seems to be indicating, 5cvm can correct me if I am wrong on that).

I guess my main suspicions are hitogoroshi, ConfidAnon, Aranfan, Scott Brosius (aka everyone on 5cvm wagon). Right now I feel people are only pushing 5cvm's wagon because he is "anti-town" which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

Hito less scummy than arafan because his cat is cuter

[Evilgorrilaz]

As for his latest reply, I really don't understand why he's suspicious of everyone on the 5cvm wagon.

I think there is at least 1 scum on the 5cvm wagon. I don't think I am alone in this thinking. xvart/you both stated hito was being too opportunistic. I kinda think scott/arafan/confidanon were being more opportunistic, but w.e

EG, you going to vote xvart?

Don't know. I want a confidanon replacement.

[Evilgorrilaz]

Whoops, i meant 5cvm. Sry about that D:

[Evilgorrilaz]

@Humble
I'm confused now. Are you are finding people scummy based on how much emotion they show while advocating a policy lynch?

Wait... WHAT? no... way... you get that from my actions...

Where did I advocate a policy lynch?
On another note. Emotion and the way in which people act & react can be telling, yes.

Not saying you advocated policy lynch. I'm talking about how you react to those advocating policy lynches (e.g. hito).

1 scum in a 4 people waggon? Wow... what are the odds?

Well I kind of think confid/arafan are the ones likely to be scum, but confid has disappeared so I'm sorta waiting on his replacement.

[Evilgorrilaz]

And for the record, while I'm happy to lynch 5cvm regardless of his alignment, I'm growing increasingly sure that he probably is scum here. This pattern, of let's ignore him -- wagon building -- wagon dissipating is what I would expect - as scumbuddies bus him before realizing, hey, we'll actually be able to keep this loon alive.

Who would the scumbuddies be?

[Evilgorrilaz]

limited acces untila after christmas

[Evilgorrilaz]

I think 5cvm is town and I think he has potential to play pro-town (in his own unique way, but still). 5cvm is the easy lynch. We won't probably gain much from his flip. Scott has jumped on him without even commenting on the game and people are fine with it.

Back and rereading.

[Evilgorrilaz]

If 5cvm is town, the best way to do so is to make the logical case, not to attack those not voting for him. If he is scum, the best way to do so is to make it as painless as possible for his scumbuddies to bus him so we can get on with it. Hence making a strong case. The fact that he has many active defenders could be scumbuddies; there's simply no sense in speculating on that though when we can check by lynching the anti-town player first.

What the hell is this? You are literally saying "SCUM GET ON THIS WAGON NAO BEFORE I WHIP YOU WID MAH F*ING CATS". If you call 5cvm anti-town for claiming "scum" this is just as bad. This is asking for a quicklynch. This is TRYING to protect the scum. This is trying to make your policy lynch crusade/case seem (as you put it) "strong".

Vote:Hitogoroshi

[Evilgorrilaz]

Now a question for Evilgorillaz: would you say policy was a weak reason for a lynch?

At this point yes, given what 5cvm has recently posted.

Gorillaz post, his first in a while, is rather unsightly, but since I'm pretty sure that hito is scum, I'm willing to let it slide for now.

Really? Do you not see the obvious contradiction in Hito's post? He says he wants to get rid of the anti-town player, but he wants to do so in a way that protects scum. Am I the only one that finds that scummy?

[Evilgorrilaz]

I guess we are at an impasse Hito. I don't think 5cvm is nearly as anti-town as you make him out to be, and as a consequence his lynch doesn't seem so good for town in my eyes. Which means I think that your theory is retarded. (In that I see where your logic is coming from, but I disagree with that logic)

[Evilgorrilaz]

I guess we are at an impasse Hito. I don't think 5cvm is nearly as anti-town as you make him out to be, and as a consequence his lynch doesn't seem so good for town in my eyes. Which means I think that your theory is retarded. (In that I see where your logic is coming from, but I disagree with that logic)

^^ MORE SCUM POSTS FROM SCUM!!! Please, guys, check it out... Evil is voting hito and KNOWS hito is town so he diminishes the mislynch he may pull by saying that he understands but doesn't agree with him...

There's a difference between not agreeing and thinking someone is scum.... EVil doesn't think hito is scum... in fact, he KNOWS hito isn't. A town player wouldn't talk like this about a person he is voting to lynch.

And how do I know hito is town? I say I don't like his logic because of what his logic is based off of (basically how anti-town 5cvm is).

Thanks for strawmanning my argument.

[Evilgorrilaz]

EBWOP
And that goes for Tommy to. I don't get why you guys think I don't think Hito's theory is dumb and anti-town at this point. In order to accept his theory, you pretty much have to assume that 5cvm is still a bumbling "jester" AKA policy lynch the anti-town person regardless of alignment.

I find Hito scummy because he kept advocating a 5cvm lynch while 5cvm gradually improved his postig.

[Evilgorrilaz]

5cvm has disappeared so -.-;;;;

Congrats, you have eyes. I generally don't post unless I've read the whole of the thread previous.

Considering that I'm the only one still on 5cvm you're probably right. While I would like to get button lynched, EG has the strongest case against him.

Vote: 5cvm

Would be nice to read the thread.

Stuffs:
Magis replacing:

Saying a replacement is needed and actually getting a replacement are two very different things. In my first game on the site it took the mod a long time to find needed replacements, and sometimes those replacements would need replacing soon after. It can drag the game down terribly, and lynching is my only recourse against it.

Makes 0 sense. If he really did believe this he would have advocated it for the other replacements, which he hasn't. He made no note of changing his opinion on this matter either, so this only makes sense as a way to get somebody quick lynched.

On the jester issue:
I'm not too sure what to make of this.
Claims he doesn't want to lynch a Jester because he wants to "win first". Changes his mind because he doesn't want to play with someone overtly anti-town. I would assume after reading some of his first game that he would be of the second opinion already. At best I can only see it as a null tell.

Responses to his responses:
[quote="Arafan]
It's the only logical explanation assuming everyone is playing to their win condition.
[/quote]
No its not. You brought up the point about the doc in your first game being a dick (and posting one lolol).

Yes

(In response to squirrel asking him about the lurking replacement)
Where was the vote on confid?

[Evilgorrilaz]

Nvm the point about the lurking replacement. I guess it can be construed to only apply for magis.

[Evilgorrilaz]

After nearly 1.5 hours of reading Arafan, my biggest gripe I guess is simply his stance on 5cvm.

Now then, I changed my mind because hito made good and cogent points. 5cvm is posting a lack of content, he's basically posting cats, except they're offensive lolcats. He is negatively impacting the ability of the Town to scumhunt by not only depriving us of whatever mental abilities he may have, but also by declaring that random person X is one of his scumbuddies, usually those who attack him.

This was his reasoning after hito convinced him.

This is his reasoning for thinking 5cvm was jester

That is so anti-Town I don't even know how to say it.

I very much doubt it, scum wouldn't out their buddies like that, and if you're just a townie who's f'd in the head, you wouldn't know who scum is anyway.

Scum Vs Jester:

As for who I think might be scum:

5cvm: May be scum, claiming scum is a supposed to be a shitty way to avoid getting lynched but it seems to be working for him. Even if he isn't scum, he is actively working against the interests of the town.

Except he also says

I still think 5cvm is a jester.

He pretty much has the same idea of how anti-town 5cvm is to him through out the game. Except he goes from saying nay to yay. What I don't understand is how exactly Hito changed Arafan's mind. Arafan said he didn't want to lynch Jester because he wanted to "complete win" as suggested by ChiboSempai. Then he says Hito convinced him that lynching anti-town member is better than the "complete win". I guess that on its own isn't that bad. Except the timing. Both confid and Arafan were the 4th and 5th votes respectively on the 5cvm wagon at the time of their votes. Except arafan thought he was the L-1 vote on 5cvm. In other words, he saw it as the perfect opportunity to get someone quicklynched.

Vote:Arafan

I'm also curious Arafan, why do you want button lynched? I see no evidence in your posts that you suspect him.

Btw I just realized I called Aranfan arafan. Sorry about that.

[Evilgorrilaz]

I find Hito scummy because he kept advocating a 5cvm lynch while 5cvm gradually improved his postig.

I murdered my first wife, beat my second hard enough to send her to the hospital, and just gave the third a black eye. I'm gradually improving; am I a good husband?

Yup
Although you might want to be careful with that analogy. Take a new player to mafia. They go through the same improvement process. they might be bad at first, but they get better later amirite?

[Evilgorrilaz]

Seriously, aranfan, could you explain where this came from?

QFT.

[Evilgorrilaz]

o.o

[Evilgorrilaz]

Naw, you not very good at denying things; what you should have said was "I was referring to the side / alignment" this claim of mixing up "is" and "are" when

your

a native english speaker is laughably bad.

I loled

[Evilgorrilaz]

Interesting.

2 mafia are dead and there seems to be an SK. Does that mean we killed all the mafia, and now are looking for the SK?

[Evilgorrilaz]

2 Kills doesn't mean that there isn't Mafia. Assuming that mafia had a doctor, it could be feasible that town also has a doctor and someone is protected (although I guess the death scene would reveal a lot). Maybe 1-shot vig? I doubt that though.

[Evilgorrilaz]

EBWOP
I meant to say that since mafia had a doctor.

[Evilgorrilaz]

I don't like either of these posts. They feel to me like misdirection, just asking questions about game setup and assumptions that aren't necessarily grounded on anything. For example,

• Does that mean we killed all the mafia, and now are looking for the SK?
  -Subtly suggesting not to look for mafia? Then:
  
  Two kills doesn't mean that there isn't Mafia.
  
  
  Assuming that mafia had a doctor, it could be feasible that town also has a doctor and someone is protected.
  - So there should have been another killing role and four deaths had this alleged doctor not selected correctly?
  
  Maybe 1-shot vig? I doubt that though.
  -Why would you doubt that?

I don't see why you wouldn't be wondering about the set-up. Usually in mini's that I have played, there are 2 or 3 scum. This is the first time I've played with what seems to be an SK role, so I don't know if that affects how many mafia there might be.

And No, I'm not suggesting that there should have been more deaths. A doctor simply seems feasible because of how many power roles scum has so far. 1 Town vig vs 1 mafia role blocker and 1 mafia doctor seems imbalanced in favor of the mafia. And I doubt there is a 1 shot vig because a full vig seems much more likely.

You are making the assumption that there are 3 mafia. How is that grounded on anything? although....

Mod: If someone (sk, vig, mafia) submits a kill and then is in turn targeted, does the kill go through?

[Evilgorrilaz]

EBWOP
When I say targeted I mean someone else submits a kill on said person