Mini 885 - Boom, Game Gutshot/Abandoned by Mod!

[ConfidAnon]

/in!

[ConfidAnon]

Wierdest start to a game I've played in by far, but nothign scummy yet, just sounds like a bunch of goofing around.

Vote: Aranfan

[ConfidAnon]

@xvart: I'm still curious--you accepting the coincidence or was i lying?

I do not accept that it was a coincidence; but, I don't necessarily think it was scummy; I think it's null at this point. It shall be filed away. With that said:

Unvote: A_Squirrel

Every single post by 5cvm has been scummy; not only that, but so brazenly scummy it makes me sick. Could there be a VI in a 12 person game?

xvart.

WOW. Now this is a scummy post.

1. A nulltell now will be a nulltell later. Why are you filing it away, and saying that it's "null at this point" is setting yourself up to add it to a potential case later. Sounds like scum trying to start an early D1 bandwagon, realizing that their evidence is weak, and backing off until they can get a better case built.

2. 5cvm is "so brazenly scummy" that it makes you sick . . . and you're not voting him? Why not?

Unvote, Vote: xvart

[ConfidAnon]

The point I was making about filing it away was simply because if a pattern of behavior develops surrounding the same sort of behavior I was mentioning, it ceases to be a null tell. One simple comment that can appear scummy can be made by anyone, but if it happens over and over, then further scrutiny is needed.

Mind giving an example about how a pattern of behavior about the "lie" would develop?

The random vote die rolling coincidence thing, to me, has absolutely nothing scummy about it. How would a pattern of behavior develop over that?

Because I asked if there could possibly be a VI in a 12 person game? Did you miss my question asking for more information? I haven't been a member of this site long so I don't know the standard setup that includes VIs, but I'm not going to jump on someone, especially when it furthers the current (and strong) bandwagon, when he could be the VI.

Must have missed your question about the VI. I haven't seen a jester in a mini normal game, although I'm no where near experienced. I don't think it's common practice to include one.

xvart, I just noticed we're both from Missouri. Hi! Anyways, jester hunting is in and of itself scummy, so my vote stands.

[ConfidAnon]

Alas, but we all shall file away tidbits of information that we can utilize to start wagons later on in the game.

Yes, but usually those tidbits are scumtells, not nulltells.

[ConfidAnon]

What do you find weird about our start?

Sorry about missing this question earlier. I just found the joking scum claims and other joking aroudn wierd, idk why.

I was more referring to the fabrication of a story to support a given action.

I don't like this. Unless you can have conclusive proof that someone lied, how can you be sure that any motivation is a fabrication?

Still seems like your setting yourself up to have grounds to start a Squirrell mislynch. You can claim that his explanation for any of his actions is a fabrication, when there is no conclusive proof to support that . . . in fact, in the earlier example (Randomgate), the evidence supports that he is telling the truth more so than it does that he is lying.

Nobody is "jester hunting." I asked a question about game setup.

Whoa deja vu (got killed recently in a game where jester speculation was a major point of discussion.) Anyways, you asking about the possibility of a jester is in a way hunting for a jester. Looking for a jester is scummy for a few reasons:

1. Jester =/= scum. When we look for a jester, we aren't looking for scum, which hurts town.

2. Setups up a possible scumbuddy defense. Example: Mafia A messes up and does something really scummy. Mafia B says "He's too scummy to be scum, this is most likely a jester, we shouldn't lynch him."

3. While I've never seen this type of thing on MS (my original site is epicmafia.com, a chat based website), mafia could be looking for a joint win. On EM, mafia can joint with fool (that sites name for jester) given the right situation (2 mafia, 2 town, 1 fool alive. Mafia and fool vote together to lynch fool, fool gets lynched, and then mafia have the numbers to win as well.)

EBWOP:

I meant to add that maybe I should have said "I've got my eye on you" instead of "filing it away." Maybe if I had used a piece of terminology from the MS wiki it would have been more kosher.

xvart.

It wasn't the word choice that I had a problem with, it was the meaning. Either phrase I would have been wary of.

Can you please explain this further? Pretty much as what you mean by bastard modding, as I've never heard the term.

Bastard modding is any case of the mod lying to the players. I wouldn't call a fool bastard modding, just an unconventional role.

[ConfidAnon]

I understand that. I don't think I can be any more clear: I wasn't looking for a jester; I was asking a simple question about game setup before I considered putting another vote on him.

This point is devolving into "I'm right!" "No, I'm right!"

My stance is that by asking about the possibility of a jester, you were looking for a jester, but I'm done arguing it. It's up to everyone else to decide who's right on this matter.

You are the one making that case, not me. I never once defended him and said he was the jester. I was asking about the game setup. In fact, I wasn't the only one who made note of the odd posting behavior:

Fair point. I assumed that you were wary of lynching a jester, hence you weren't going to vote for him. If you're going to vote him, then the point is null . . . . but you didn't vote him. That's why that case is a possibility.

BTW, here's an interesting thing everyone should read:

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Jester

This is the key line:

If a Jester is lynched before any other faction has won, the game will usually continue to determine second place.

If there is a jester, they are more than likely getting lynched, just saying.

Do you really think that the mafia and the (mostly likely) non-existent jester have already planned out this grand scheme you suggest?

No, but if a jester existed, they would seek to do so.

ConfidAnon - who do you think is more anti-town at this point? Me or 5cvm?

5cvm is more anti-town, while you are scummier. There's a difference there . . . your question sounds like you were using it to make yourself look better.

I just want to make it clear to you, ConfidAnon, that you are the one that continues to talk about the jester, not me. I'm just answering to your allegations that are unfounded.

I agree, but I'm not hunting for a jester . . . I'm calling you scummy for hunting for the jester. I won't argue that point any more, but it's not going away. And my allegations are founded, whether you acknowlege it or not.

ChiboSempai's 79 - Not quoting because it's so long. Anyways, not gonna argue this . . . after the game I think there should be an MD topic. I'd rather scumhunt than argue theory.

5cvm . . . quit trolling. kthnx.

[ConfidAnon]

A theme game is different from a normal in that it features roles with unusual mechanics (like maybe enablers or mutating roles), or it is based off of an outside source (like, for example, a game where all the roles are named after the characters from a TV show), or both.

I like the point about Button in Post 88, but I'm more comfortable with my xvart vote atm.

[ConfidAnon]

@

Aranfan

Eliminating someone as a possible scum because they are too scummy to be scum is a terrible idea! Sigh even if there was a a Jester; playing as a Jester is basically playing like scum (given that a jester wants to be lynched, thus they emulate scum). So if there was a jester there should be no way to tell their posts apart from scums. Thus to assume there's a jester and ignore scummy posts for being to scummy means you also ignore scum tells from the mafia.

Except that Scum are trying to act like town so as to not get lynched. That means Jesters will be overt, while Scum will be covert. 5cvm is clearly and obviously a Jester, we can thus move on to hunting the real scum.

Although the question occurs as to who gets first place if the Jester lynched as the final anti-town faction.

If 5cvm is scum, Aranfan is his scumbuddy.

[ConfidAnon]

I think it's important to distinguish between alignment and action. A townie can act anti-town, and this is I think what 5cvm is doing. As I said before (which is more or less what rite also just said right above me) I think 5cvm is just some townie who thinks they are OMG SO EPIC for pulling A SUPER L33T GAMBIT!!! But regardless of this he is derailing the whole game and I'm about two more pages of drivel away from voting him just so he shuts up.

QFT


Sorry for not having much content . . . but really nothing of worth for me to comment on right now.

[ConfidAnon]

So... Why haven't you provided any analysis since I gave you a "reaction"? Yes, you said my post count increased and length increased (oh, and that I didn't specifically mention the votes themselves); but you haven't said anything about whether you find that scummy, townie, or neither. Typically when someone is posting to get a reaction wouldn't they then comment on the reaction?

xvart.

This is a good point.

-he's scum "screwing around," that is, he thinks this is strategy or he's just a goofball
-he's scum with some posting restriction/game mechanic making him do this (unlikely in a normal game, right?)
-he's a jester trying to get killed (I personally feel like he would have changed his strategy by now, but perhaps not)
-he's pro-town with some strange posting restriction/game mechanic (again, unlikely in a normal game)

I've seen a post restriction in a mini normal game (then again, I wouldn't classify it entirely normal because there were no vanillas, my role was a

Delayed

Serial Killer and a CULT won!)

[ConfidAnon]

This thread needs less jester, more scumhuntying.

Unvote, Vote: ChiboSempai

[ConfidAnon]

1. What's your favorite type of role to play as out of Vanilla Townie, Town Power Role, or Mafia?
2. Day is coming close to an end early on in the game (D1 or D2 I'd say) and if majority isn't reached the decision goes to No Lynch. Do you continue on with the No Lynch or push to lynch someone, whoever it might be. Perhaps you could target someone who has been inactive and coasting, or perhaps some other random quality.
3. About how many games of mafia have you played in?

1. Probably Town Power Role, although I haven't played a game as scum yet so I can't accurately answer this question.
2. I push for a lynch. Town should never No Lynch on either of those days, especially D1.
3. About 10, some of those me having to replace out.

Will finish catching up later tonight, parent's making me get off to go shopping.

[ConfidAnon]

ChiboSempai

- Why did you use random.org to pick three names for your second set of questions instead of just posing the questions to all players?

xvart's Post 141 is very good.

@Confidanon: Was the game with PRs and weird roles here?

Yes, it waas called I Hate Vanilla. My play there was shoddy due to real life conflicts, but I'm sure it would be an interesting read.

@Everyone else: You are all over reacting. I only skimmed your walls to text but I am sure that such long posts are completely unnecessary on page 6. I am playing a 25 person game right now and it works just fine with a 750 wc limit. Please try to tone it down, mkay?

Grumble grumble. (I'm dead in that game xD)

[ConfidAnon]

First, unvote as it was a random vote.

I'll follow up on my last post. Of Confid and Chibo I find Chibo more suspicious. When I last made notes he said (p3 somewhere) "I don't like xvart's replies."

I didn't find anything wrong with them so maybe Chibo was trying to make xvart seem more suspicous at a time where he was being questioned by others.

Vote Chibo

I don't like this post. The second section sounds like your setting up an ultimatum of "One of Confid/Chibo is scum." Scum could easily do this, try to get one lynched, and then when they flip town say that the other (presumably town) gets lynched as well.

What was your reasoning behind singling out the two of us?

[ConfidAnon]

Sorry for the lack of content . . . should be able to get caught up later tonight.

[ConfidAnon]

As I said in my post I thought Chibo seemed more suspicious. Therefore I voted for him. Should I vote for the person I found less suspicious?

By your logic it sounds like one should not find more than one person suspicious at a time. That would be silly because there are more than one mafia.

Gotta love that avoidance of a question. You can find multiple people suspicious at one time, but I find it odd that you group us together and single us out for no given reason.

Dichotomies are scummy.

Confid's got a good point and you're avoiding it. You said you thought out of Chibo/Confid you found chibo more suspicious, but why the dichotomy? Why is it only between those two players?

Exactly.

Post 163 - So you find us suspicious because you disagree with us? That is an extremely weak reason imo.

Unvote, Vote: Seregil

I don't see what the big deal about Seregil's comment, and I don't see it as scummy since in his response he referenced two people with contradictory statements to his own.

I'm fine with my vote on TheButtonmen. Does anyone else have something to say about him or to dissuade me from voting him?

xvart.

First part: If Seregil is scum (good possibility), xvart is probably scum as well.

Second part: This is a jump, but I'm wondering why you feel the need to reassure us that your comfortable with your vote. Button hadn't posted in the time between your two posts, so he hadn't given you anythign to comment on. This bothers me. Jumpy scum, perhaps?

I'm here, there's just nothing doing.

I say we lynch the lurker so as to save the mod trouble, and to rid the game of some dead weight.

To that end;

Vote: magisterrain

We've got enough scummy behavior going on so that we don't have to resort to a policy lynch, although I hate lurkers as well.

Welcome to the game, Humble Poirot!

[ConfidAnon]

Do you think this is SO straightforward? Wouldn't it be best to buss him or just ignore him?
Explain your Chibosemapai vote. Why did you leave xvart? How do you feel about him now?
Why do you try to guess teammates with no flips? How is that pro-town?

1. No, its definitely not straightforward. I said it in a blunt manner to get reactions and add dramatic effect. AranFan was basically writing off 5cvm as scum. You can interpret it in different ways, but I feel that if 5cvm is scum, AranFan is likely scum because of it.

2. The ChiboSempai vote was only for reactions and to progress conversation away from jesters. I voted him because he was active, and therefore a vote that would likely spark some discussion.

3. How is it not pro-town? Scum are, excluding Masons, the only players in the game who know each others' alignments. Therefore, there will probably be some connections between them. Looking for those connections is a genuine scumhunting tactic. Obviously looking for connections should not be completely substituted for individual scummy behavior, but it can be a profitable line of inquiry.

This is the strangest argument I've seen in about 20 games without a doubt. One can find 1 or 3 people suspicious but not 2. Talking about weak arguments...

I'm not saying that there is a number of people that, should you find that number suspicious, is extremely scummy.

You picked two players (myself and Chibo) and said out of the two, one is scummier. By grouping two players together, you were making it sound like only one of the two could be scum. A situation where you have to choose A or B, no "all of the above" or "none of the above" available. As scum, you could easily get one of them lynched, have them flip town, and then move on to the other mislynch. Setting up a dichotomy is scummy.

I've been wondering why you didn't talk about my reasons being weak before (instead inventing your dichotomy theory) ??? They are. Considering that it is day 1 and at the time there were only 5 pages or so what did you expect? However the reactions to my post have been very useful

I expected a genuine scumtell, or at least some semblance of one.

Basically what you've done with your reasoning is something to the effect of this:

John: "I like baseball."

Sally: "I can't stand baseball, I like basketball."

John: "You're scum."

[ConfidAnon]

rite

- Why do you want this day to end?

Seregil

- How were the reactions to your post useful?

[ConfidAnon]

I only have 1 vote so I have to pick one. Again you are essentially saying that you can't discuss two people as being scummy because then you are scummy. You both were questioning xvart when I found nothing really questionable about his posts. Therefore I felt I had to pick one of you and I did.

No I'm not. I could care less if you suspect me or not, but you mentioned two players, then said one is scummier. Your post set up a dichotomy. If it was between 5cvm and, oh I don't know, Aranfan, I'd still have a problem with it.

Really? That's funny. You just said you voted for Chibo to get a reaction. Where is the scumtell in that vote??? You should really try to follow your own logic.

Your posts (Confid) have been the ones that are useful to me. First in reaction to my post and now in reaction to Humble's question. I'm really thinking of voting for Confid.

I see your point about the reaction vote, but my point about your vote is still valid.

Hmmm . . . why not vote me? I'm fairly certain I don't have any votes, and if you find me scummy (translation: OMGUS), what's the point of not voting? The last bit of your post sounds like you testing the waters to see if you could get a bandwagon going on me reasonably. Your getting scummier and scummier.

[ConfidAnon]

Will post more tomorrow (sick, got homework, don't have time).

[ConfidAnon]

Humble, the thing is that 5cvm has made it abundantly clear he never intends to offer content. I don't want to keep a player like that until the endgame; he will be an active detriment to town. And the time to do a lynch like that is now, because we'll have more content D2 to work off of to pick our lynch (a nk and more posts, as well as knowledge of 5cvm's flip.) Do you really intend to leave him around the entire game? Do you really want to say, "Congratulations, 5cvm, you are such a terrible player we're going to let you live despite the fact you will never be a productive member of this game!"

As such, I'm keen to string up him so we can move on to more concrete matters. There is a such thing as 'too much content' and 'too long of a day', and the fact is D1 is one prone to mislynches because there is a lot of speculation and not much real information. It's a perfect day to policy lynch, because we don't NEED to know about everyone else: we know 5cvm is going to play anti-town, so we can murder him alignment be damned. It really is that simple.

Unvote, Vote: 5cvm

Correct. But finding two people scummy does not set up a dichotomy. Person A and Person B are scummy != Either A or B are scum.

And if he would have come out and said that he found those two scummy in the original post, it would have been fine. However, he did not. Now I can't argue whether that was the original intention or not, but this point has been argued enough now. Not enough to lynch someone over at the present time.

[ConfidAnon]

Show me the dichotomy. I would like to see it.

Reading the thread is key to success. Do it more. Here ya go.

Let's imagine a hypothetical: let's say the game started with the mod saying "This player will never post, ever, and will never be replaced out." Now, this isn't a scumtell in any way. But is there any doubt as to what the optimal play would be? We would lynch that player, day one. We have the weakest scum reads, and that slot will never contribute anything.

Now imagine that hypothetical with one difference: it is not the mod but the player who says "Hey, I'm never going to post, ever", and the only posts they make are affirmation that they will never actually post content. Guess what? You don't need to imagine anything, because this is in fact the situation we are in, and the answer is the same as it is in the first hypothetical.

I haven't heard anyone say 5cvm is doing anything helpful for town. But people seem hesitant to lynch because they're not sure it's a scumtell. The thing you have to understand is that it doesn't matter. This is the ultimatum: either defend 5cvm's actions as helpful to the town, or vote him. You cannot say, "He's not helping the town but I want to keep him alive anyway," as so many of you seem keen to do. I'm looking at you, Chibo.

As the saying goes: how do you make sure you don't have a lurker to deal with in LYLO? Lynch them before.

This is truth.