Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[Sanjay]

Chinaman has requested a replacement and is being replaced by Sanjay.

Chinaman is being replaced by who?

Sanjay?

Isn't that the awesome dude that makes fellahs want to jump and ladies want to jive?

Isn't that the hippest cat who makes everyone he meets feel good to be alive?

Isn't he the guy when he walks down the street, all the fly honeys ask him "How's tricks?"

Isn't he the dude who a fourth of the town has personal vendettas against because of his play in Newbie 846?

Surely not that Sanjay!

But yes, yes, it is!!!

THE CROWD GOES WILD!!!!!!!!1

[Sanjay]

First order of business, I want to talk about foilist13. I apologize if some of this has been touched on before, and I apologize if it goes on a little long:

The initial point about foilist13 that everyone loves is that he voted for the wrong person and then, when he learned of his mistake, he didn't move the vote.

Is this scummy? Yes. But the real scumminess comes in the explanation:

@Anyone who is still unhappy about me leaving my vote on MordyS - I'll go in depth into what I was thinking so that you can stop asking me about this.

After you pointed out my mistake,

1) I usually find someone to vote for before I stop voting for someone else.

2) You were not in any danger of being lynched

3) You had started to make a case against me, so at that point my vote essentially became a OMGUS vote while I tried to defend myself. Then I built my case against muffin and changed my vote accordingly.

1 is obviously a silly reason since he had someone else to vote for (the person he actually wanted to vote for).

2 is a silly reason too, but I guess I can buy it.

3 is a silly reason unless foilist13 has some good reason why an OMGUS vote in this situation is helpful. Remember this one because it'll come up later.

Put points 2 and 3 together, it implies that foilist13 considered moving his vote when he learned about his mistake and decided against it. This is VERY interesting because it sets up a very bizarre timeline:

Post 42: foilist13 mistakenly votes MordyS.
Post 73: foilist13 recognizes the name confusion. If I am reading foilist13 correctly, this is when he considered moving his vote and decided against it.
Post 76: archaebob asks foilist13 why his vote is still on Gammagooey (hint, it's not).
Post 77: foilist13 tells him why his vote is still on Gammagooey. If foilist13 had considered changing his vote to Gammagooey and decided against it, wouldn't he remember that his vote wasn't on Gammagooey and correct archaebob?
Post 100: MordyS starts building a case against foilist13 and labels him not changing his vote as scummy. This happens AFTER foilist13 learned that he voted for the wrong guy, completely invalidating reason 3.
post 141: foilist13 gives his three reasons for not moving his vote when he should have.

Here's a more believable timeline:

Post 42: foilist13 mistakenly votes MordyS.
Post 73: foilist13 recognizes the name confusion. It doesn't occur to him to change his vote.
Post 76: archaebob asks foilist13 why his vote is still on Gammagooey
Post 77: foilist13 assumes that archaebob knows what he is talking about and answers the question as if archaebob didn't mess up.
Post 100: MordyS starts building a case against foilist13 and labels him not changing his vote as scummy. This is when foilist13 realizes his vote is still on MordyS.
post 141: foilist13 gives his three reasons for not moving his vote when he should have.

This timeline is more believable because there are no contradictions. If foilist13 hadn't considered moving his vote until post 100, it makes sense that he would miss archaebob's mistake in post 76. If foilist13 hadn't considered moving his vote until post 100, reason 3 actually makes sense because at that point MordyS HAD made a case against foilist13. MordyS had made no such case when foilist13 actually learned about the error. This also explains why foilist13 misidentifies who corrected him about the name mistake in the first place. It was archaebob, but foilist13 says here that it was MordyS, probably because MordyS cast the suspicion on him for not changing his vote.

Also, I think foilist13's case on Muffin in post 125 looks like foilist13 trying to change his vote as gracefully as possible once he learned about his mistake. It's not a very good case and I can analyze it in more detail if anyone is interested in that.

More coming, but for now I'm gonna get some sleep.

[Sanjay]

So just to be clear, now your explanation for those reasons is this:

The reasons I posted occurred me after the fact, but my mind was not on my vote, yes even after it was pointed out to me.

vs. the original explanation for those reasons:

@Anyone who is still unhappy about me leaving my vote on MordyS - I'll go in depth into what I was thinking so that you can stop asking me about this.

So to be perfectly clear, you were lying before when you said that those reasons where what you were really thinking.

[Sanjay]

Shucks, Muffin. I replaced into this game to hang out with you!

Oh well. We'll always have /b/ mafia. Sorry real life's getting you down.

[Sanjay]

Oh, sorry archaebob.

I meant to declare that I was actively ignoring your question until foilist13 addresses mine.

[Sanjay]

@Sanjay - No. I said I'd go more into depth, but when I went to make the post I realized that I really didn't have much of anything to post other than that I really wasn't thinking about it and the reasons I already posted still held true as weak as they are.

When did you say you would go into more depth?

[Sanjay]

Sure, archaebob.

On one hand, I do have a remarkably high threshold for what is too much evidence against foilist13 for me to imagine him as town. He has tried to put one over on the town as town. I know that. I understand that foilist13, despite his town win condition, was scummy-looking enough in 846 that Zachrulez could hammer an unclaimed cop without the ridiculous amount of suspicion that should entail.

On the other hand, I can make sense of why foilist13 acted the way he did in that game. I'm having a little trouble making sense of foilist13's actions this game. If I can't make sense of foilist13's actions, I'm going to advocate for his lynch.

I know foilist13 is bad at defending himself. I'm looking at his posts very carefully to try and figure out why he might have done what he did as town.

Do you think you have a good handle on what I am bothered about by about foilist13? If you'd like to weigh in on it, I'm fine with that.

[Sanjay]

@ Sanjay -

What you say makes sense, but you'll have to forgive me for not being able to totally trust you with regards to your supposed opinion of foilist. And, as you can probably guess why, I don't expect that will be changing much either.

I'm curious what you think of peanutman.

Oh, that's another reason why I'm not as worried about foilist. I know that if someone is purposely asking foilist questions that I don't think he'll have good answers to, at least it isn't me this time. I know that's little comfort to you, but it is some comfort to me.

Or, you know, supposed comfort.

I can't imagine how you got to be this mistrusting, archaebob. It's not healthy. But if you want to remind everyone that I come off as rather townish as scum every once in a while, go right ahead.

As for peanutman, I haven't read peanutman very closely. I haven't posted all my opinions as quickly as I would have liked. foilist13's reaction to my first post was kind of interesting so my last few posts have been dedicated to that tangent.

AlmasterGM is my next player I want to comment on, so it might be a little bit before I comment on peanutman.

Is there a particular reason why you are asking me about peanutman, archaebob?

[Sanjay]

@Sanjay - No. I said I'd go more into depth, but when I went to make the post I realized that I really didn't have much of anything to post other than that I really wasn't thinking about it and the reasons I already posted still held true as weak as they are.

How does this explain why you posted your obviously made up reasons?

You typed that you would go into more depth, but then you realized you didn't really have any more depth to go into, so instead of just backspacing out of that problem, you decided to misrepresent your thought processes and go into more depth anyway.

foilist13, here is my main question:

WHAT THE HECK?

[Sanjay]

xp to Papa: You absolutely missed more cases. I've made cases against Foilist, a few against AlmasterGM, and one against Peanutman.

Crap. I knew I had.

Once more into the breach, dear friends, once more.

I've only made like one substantive post all game so far so I would feel awful if it was left out.

[Sanjay]

Two reasons. One because I'm not fully caught up and two because I wasn't interested in pressuring him when I made that case.

I'm more interested in seeing if foilist13 can put my mind at ease than I am in pushing him and seeing if he cracks.

Ultimately, he's probably going to be my lynch recommendation because I'm not really comfortable having a player that I would allow this much scumminess as town hanging around.

[Sanjay]

Two reasons. One because I'm not fully caught up and two because I wasn't interested in pressuring him when I made that case.

I'm more interested in seeing if foilist13 can put my mind at ease than I am in pushing him and seeing if he cracks.

Ultimately, he's probably going to be my lynch recommendation because I'm not really comfortable having a player that I would allow this much scumminess as town hanging around.

That is, of course, unless I find someone scummier.

[Sanjay]

I've been dragging my feet getting out of the gate a lot more than I would have liked to. Sorry.

There are a couple of things about the AlmasterGM is scum case that don't really move me at all. Let's talk about it:

The idea that AlmasterGM's Pikachu case against Gammagooey is scummy (from all over the thread)

: The case is based on the assumptions that Gammagooey researched AlmasterGM before the game, and that scum are more likely to do such research? Are those assumptions justified? Probably not. But does that make the case scummy? I fail to see how.

Maybe I'm more sympathetic to the case because I can see where it is coming from. The only time I ever look up a player before they even post anything is when I am scum (I usually check out my scumpartners). I don't see it as a great argument that Gammagooey is scum, but I can imagine how it could come from town.

Could someone that feels it is scummy care to explain?

The idea that dropping the Gammagooey case is scummy (I forget who brought this up)

: This one I'm only partially not moved by. There's nothing wrong with dropping a case if you don't think it is valid anymore. The only people that wouldn't are scum (who want to appear consistent) and stubborn people (who are stupid). It is a little scummy though for AlmasterGM to allow himself to be so easily swayed by the town.

The idea that AlmasterGM is scum for attacking people for bad logic despite having made a dumb argument (by MordyS, post 237)

: This point is ridiculous and bad. Making a bad argument does not disqualify you from attacking bad arguments for the rest of the game.

Not to say MordyS's original point that AlmasterGM attacked as badlogic is bad logic. I'm just saying that attacking people for bad logic isn't scummy no matter how many stupid arguments you come up with. I assume MordyS should have something to say about this given how triumphant he was about the argument to begin with.

-----

So what's left? As I see it, we have a player whose suspicions seem rather OMGUSish and a player that is using a lot of bad reasoning. This is definitely scummy but I don't see how it is the slam dunk case some people are saying it is.

There's also the softclaiming stuff but I'd really rather not comment on that unless he fullclaims.

[Sanjay]

Here are my thoughts on the AlmasterGM wagon:

Could it be a wagon on scum? Yes. But it seems to have formed up rather easily and I think the biggest problem with it is that people have discounted everything AlmasterGM has to say because people see him as scum.

Like take AlmasterGM's attack on archaebob and Gammagooey's response to it. Not everything AlmasterGM said there was bogus. archaebob actually was kind of late to the AlmasterGM wagon. He never expressed any problem with AlmasterGM's argument until after other people jumped on it. This is a point that you all completely ignored.

[Sanjay]

@Sanjay - Can you give us a general idea of your suspicions? You've posted a list of general cases, and pretty much denied all of them, so who do you find most scummy other than me apparently?

foilist13, I'm a lot more interested in your respnse to post 476 than I am in your babysitting.

[Sanjay]

Gammagooey: Thanks. There are a few things I'd like to respond to in that, but I think AlmasterGM should probably do so first.

MordyS: could you explain why you feel like AlmasterGM's case against Gammagooey is more likely to come from scum than town? Also, could you explain why AlmasterGM's reaction to you questioning the case is more likely to come from scum than town.

[Sanjay]

On my part, SpyreX?

That's actually not what I planned on saying about the VT stuff.

[Sanjay]

That's in response to this:

If I'm reading the dense words right there has been insinuation that the vanilla claim was not in fact an ACTUAL claim but instead designed to ???

Which is woooosh

[Sanjay]

Thanks, foilist13! That is actually what I wanted.

Sanjay, do you mind me asking how carefully you've read the thread so far? I understand it's long and there's a lot of dense posts, but I'm getting the impression that you're trying to play catch-up by asking old questions anew and pretending that you're uncovering something fresh.

I suppose that's a fair impression because most of my points have been coming from fairly early in the thread, but I've actually read the thread a bunch of times.

As for my comments on the AlmasterGM wagon, I'm not pretending to uncover anything there. I just felt like it was important to post my thoughts about the wagon.

I thought I was uncovering something fresh with foilist13. lexprod sort of hinted at what I was talking about, but I thought I was uncovering something fresh there. My bad?

I suppose I didn't need to ask you the most recent question about AlmasterGM.

[Sanjay]

AlmasterGM, if you are a doc why would you do things to actively draw attention to you like your "joke" about how you were going to stop paying attention and your proclamation that you got a wagon off you by ignoring it?

Doesn't make sense.

[Sanjay]

I kind of had a sort of neutral to townish read on AlmasterGM because I felt like the initial stuff he was brought up for didn't really seem like that big of a deal so I was kind of more wary of all the pressure on him than I was on him.

There were some things that AlmasterGM did that seemed too ridiculous of scum to do but those same things seem kind of ridiculous for a doctor to do too, so I guess I have to throw my townish read out the window.

AlmasterGM as a vanilla townie is even more ridiculous, by the way. Even if the VT gambit was a good idea in general, the idea of doing it after several people in the thread have mentioned how they wouldn't believe anything but a VT claim is loco.

Also:

Ok, let's skip the VT gambit for a second. Now that you've claimed a PR, wanna answer Gammagooey's original question that you ducked by lying?

Mini 844.
Mini 851.
Mini 863 (ongoing).

Much more aggressive in all of these.

When I first read this post, I assumed that those games actually answer the question. Don't make the same mistake I did.

[Sanjay]

Even being a power role only goes so far if you won't do any scumhunting. You've spent almost the entire thread half assing a bunch of illogical defenses, why don't you post something new?

How bout, gee I dunno, an accusation? A scum list? A case? Something?

I don't recall this being why AlmasterGM was scummy. Are you confusing him with somebody else?

[Sanjay]

I'm excited to find out what is responsible for my meteoric rise to fame, Papa Zito.

[Sanjay]

peanutman, what do you think is scummy about AlmasterGM?

[Sanjay]

Damn it, MordyS, I got this one.

[Sanjay]

peanutman, early in the game you said this:

I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt in the early stages of mafia games. Given that the majority of the players are town, chances are when I pick up on something and I question them, they are probably town. Nonetheless, I do question them to get a read, but I don't feel the need to always be aggressive.

Why did you abandon this strategy? This hasn't described your scumhunting at all since you said it.

[Sanjay]

My opinions on people:

Papa Zito

: I generally saw eye to eye with lexprod so that leaves me with some feelings of towniness here. Floating the VT gambit as a legitimate possibility was a little weird, but

foilist13

: foilist13's most recent timeline seems somewhat plausible so now foilist13 isn't obv-scum. I still suspect him because his case against Muffin felt kind of fabricated to me, and seemed more about getting his vote off MordyS in as unawkward a way possible than it was in bringing Muffin to task. I mean, why abandon your case on someone who was previously your number one suspect in such a weaksauce manner.

Another thing that smells fishy about the Muffin case is that it was originally mostly built based on differences between Muffin's play here and his play in 846. What is suspicious about it is that he noticed suspicious differences in archaebob too. From Post 164:

Muffin - I find him scummy based on the differences between his playing here and his playing in 846. He is my top suspect.

archaebob - His playing is similar to what it was in 846, except there is less content in general, and less risk taking. Whether or not that means he's scum I don't know.

Why the difference?

FOS: foilist13

AlmasterGM

: Well, I've reread some AlmasterGM and I admit I was wrong about him not being justifiably rung up. I feel that "early bandwagons are bad" and "townies don't look up players before the game starts" are both perfectly legitimate opinions for a person to have, and I felt like there was a better chance that AlmasterGM was the subject of some mafiosos jumping on an easy lynch.

Plus the stuff about "look at me, I'm dodging wagons by ignoring them" stuff just seemed too silly to be coming from mafia. I know that's WIFOMy, but WIFOM type stuff usually does good work on my gut.

If AlmasterGM was the doc, obviously he'd be in a pickle with someone asking him "hey, what's the deal with you being all different from this game (in which you were a powerrole)". But the thing is, AlmasterGM brought up the distinction in play, not Gammagooey. Gammagooey just asked why is your play different? AlmasterGM could have just said "I'm not always conservative. Sometimes I'm aggressive." If he was feeling like his hands were so tied, why bring powerroles into it?

I have some pause because I think claiming doc after softclaiming scum is kind of dumb move for scum too, but I guess I can see him trying to out a doc with his claim.

I know I've sort of flopped on my opinion on AlmasterGM, but I do stand by the point that not every argument against him has been sterling. But I'm not so ready to proclaim that those arguments were done out of malicious intent anymore.

I'm gonna vote for this dude.

SocioPath

: Neutral. I'm kind of surprised to find Muffin isn't the shining beacon of towniness that I know him as, but I believe his claim of real life issues and that is explanation for that. Muffin's been more or less under my radar so far. It's a real shame he replaced out before he could respond to PhaerieM's case, and I feel like that's a real spanner in the works so far as lynching him today.

MordyS

: If foilist13 is mafia MordyS is definitely town. Unless it was a big act, no way a scummate accidentally votes for his scumbuddy. And irrelevant of foilist, he's probably town anyway. He's mainly the one I had my eye on as far as someone opportunistically jumping on a town AlmasterGM, but as I become more convinced that AlmasterGM is scum, that argument either becomes much weaker if AlmasterGM happens to be town and irrelevant if he happens to be scum.

Gammagooey

: Feeling pretty town about Gammagooey. Another person that is practically confirmed town if foilist happens to be scum. There was a point or two that I disagree with as far as his most recent AlmasterGM case goes, but it makes me feel good about Gammagooey's intentions at least.

PhaerieM

: So far I like where PhaerieM is coming from.

cruelty

: I haven't looked at him that closely so I guess he's next. I think his attack on archaebob was kind of silly because it seemed more about a dislike of his playstyle than any firm reason that he is scum. Though probably not the lynch for today. I'd like to hear more from Papa Zito about why he is.

peanutman

: When I was first asked about peanutman I hadn't really looked at him. He did not stand out on my first few reads so he wasn't a top priority. But there are some suspicious things about peanutman:

The tone of peanutman's most recent post seems to suggest that before the PR claim, peanutman was okay with an AlmasterGM lynch. Thing is, he hasn't really expressed much reason for wanting an AlmasterGM lynch. peanutman, if I am misreading you about this, let me know.

Also, as I think archaebob might have pointed out, his benefit of the doubt line seems a little off.

FOS: peanutman

archaebob

: In archaebob's last two games (one as scum, one as town), there was a ridiculously clear difference between his play in those two games. In this game, he's playing very closely to what I would expect from him as town. Of course, archaebob is a smart guy and he is very meta-conscious (in his scum game, he killed a less townie-seeming player just because that player was in both games and archaebob was worried he would notice the difference). So archaebob isn't auto-town. But he's probably town though.

One thing that gives me pause about archaebob is AlmasterGM's ridiculous personal attack on archaebob on page one that he never explained. Seems like it could be AlmasterGM distancing himself from his scumbuddy. Also, there's been a few things that archaebob has put off explaining with the promise that he has a reason for it, and while I'm sure, scum or town, archaebob wouldn't say this without coming up with a reason, I'd like to hear it before the end of the day.

SpyreX

: I was just planning on judging him and MordyS as one composite unit if that's okay. Hopefully town.

------

Well, I'm caught up. Again, really sorry for the wait. Let's get rolling.

Vote: AlmasterGM

This dude has the most unexplained things so he's the one I want lynched, doc claim or no.

[Sanjay]

Dr. AlmasterGM or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Lynch the Doc

Reasons not to worry about AlmasterGM's doc claim:

1. The mafia isn't going to solve the problem for us.
2. If we don't lynch AlmasterGM, every day it's just gonna be "hey, do you want to lynch this dude yet".
3. Unless the mafia kill a doc, we aren't going to be any more sure about this doc claim now than later. If the scumteam can't come up with plausible people for AlmasterGM to "save", then they're nothing to worry about.
4. Docs are great and all, but at best they are a mild inconvenience to the scumteam, especially outed.

I know there are strategic benefits to not lynching the claimed powerrole, but I'd rather just lynch the player that seems the scummiest. I have a harder time imagining AlmasterGM as town than I do foilist13 as town.

Plus I really don't see how an AlmasterGM lynch would be less illuminating than a foilist13 lynch. If AlmasterGM is town, we have a very scummy looking townie that has been under attack from page one. Pretty much everyone has commented on him.

We could talk about the comparative value of them flipping as scum, but I think that's a little silly. If we think they are scum we don't need extra incentive to lynch them. Dreaming about how awesome your case is going to be after someone flips is just a way to convince yourself to lynch someone that isn't your primary suspect.

[Sanjay]

foilist13, do you think AlmasterGM is a good lynch today? Explain your answer.

[Sanjay]

Oh me oh my. I tried so hard to dodge discussing that but you found me out. Well done.

Here's why foilist13 flipping town doesn't matter towards peanutman's scumminess:

If foilist13 flips town, that doesn't clear peanutman in my eyes. In general, I don't think scum are that much less likely to defend unpopular townies than town are. Scum have to get mislynches AND appear townish, and even though defending unpopular townies doesn't help them towards that first goal, it does help them towards the second goal.

This is a relatively unscummy town so maybe they'd be less inclined to do so, but I still don't buy the argument "peanutman tried to defend a townie, foilist13 must be town".

It shouldn't even be a question of foilist13's alignment. The real question to ask is "is peanutman's defense of foilist13 justified?" If the answer is no, then he is scummy because of it. If the answer is yes, then not nearly as much.

[Sanjay]

That last post of mine was in response to this:

And your efforts to dodge discussing the connection between peanutman and foilist13 has been noted.

[Sanjay]

Mod: I'm voting for AlmasterGM, not archaebob.

fixed thanks

[Sanjay]

If we think they are scum we don't need extra incentive to lynch them.

True. But what do you do when you have two players that you think are BOTH scum? How do you decide which one to lynch first?

Plus I really don't see how an AlmasterGM lynch would be less illuminating than a foilist13 lynch.

Gammagooey: Feeling pretty town about Gammagooey.

Another person that is practically confirmed town if foilist happens to be scum

.

If foilist13 is mafia MordyS is definitely town.

I would say that confirming two players as pro-town is quite a bit more illuminating than the very inconclusive information we would get from this:

If AlmasterGM is town, we have a very scummy looking townie that has been under attack from page one. Pretty much everyone has commented on him.

And your efforts to dodge discussing the connection between peanutman and foilist13 has been noted.

You are comparing the ramifications of foilist13 being scum with the ramifications of AlmasterGM being town. Of course a scum flip is going to be more illuminating than a town flip.

Besides, turning Gammagooey and MordyS into practically confirmed town isn't actually that illuminating to me if you consider where my opinions are right now.

[Sanjay]

It's largely irrelevant, archaebob. We really shouldn't be picking who to lynch based on what we learn if they are scum. If we think they are scum, we should lynch them.

[Sanjay]

archaebob, could you elaborate on how AlmasterGM and foilist13 seem equally scummy to you?

[Sanjay]

AGM, this was the initial question that prompted the softclaim:

Almaster the game I read with you in it was Stratego mafia, and you definitely weren't this aggressive in there, is there a different game in particular I should be reading to see this prejudice you speak of?

This

forced your softclaim? Couldn't you have just mentioned a different game where you were more aggressive? You introduced the distinction between the your PR meta and your VT meta. You totally didn't need to make a big deal of this. Why not just declare "Meta FTL" like you just did now.

I'm really skeptical that this wouldn't occur to you.

Another question: if you decided being a cop meant you ought to play a more conservative game, why didn't you decide to play a more conservative game as a doctor? It's not an issue of meta. You've expressed the idea that you would play a cop conservatively. Why play a doc differently?

Lastly, this is garbage:

AlmasterGM, if you are a doc why would you do things to actively draw attention to you like your "joke" about how you were going to stop paying attention and your proclamation that you got a wagon off you by ignoring it?

I didn't think either of those statements would cause the chaos they did, and archaebob kept pressuring me to do something useful asap so I tried.

Firstly, you mentioned how much you like lurking your wagons away twice. It didn't go over the first time. Did that stop you the next time? Heck no.

Secondly, what use did you intend your joke to have? What use did you intend your joke to have that wouldn't involve more attention being paid to you?

[Sanjay]

SpyreX: I was just planning on judging him and MordyS as one composite unit if that's okay. Hopefully town.

No no. You shouldn't do that. For one, pairing people up, especially D1, makes things unnecessarily convoluted. On top of that, I fail to see how Spyrex and MordyS's play have been alike. Care to show me or, better yet, change your read on Spyrex?

Is this better?

SpyreX

:

I was just planning on judging him and MordyS as one composite unit if that's okay.

Hopefully town.

Both heads of MordySpyreX have been acting in a manner I feel is pro-town. Could one of them be scum? Sure. But so far neither of them have tripped up my scumdar.

You both have expressed a strong dislike for players posting information about who seems townish in the game, for the reason that it makes it easier for scum to pick out their NK. Yet neither one of you commented at all when Spyrex declared that he thought I was confirmed town.
Why is the above declaration okay, when other attempts to indicate who seems townish have been met with heated resistance from you?

I did note his comment, as well as the others (i.e. Sanjay declaring Gammagooey pro-town, post 576). But, as I alluded to earlier in this post, the main tone I get from all his posts is noise, with parroting added to the mix.[/quote]

I had a town read on a lot of people in 576. There a reason why you mentioned Gammagooey in particular?

[Sanjay]

foilist13, do you think it is sound strategy to lynch a claimed power role day one?

[Sanjay]

I guess you had a change of heart about AlmasterGM too? I don't remember you being this sure about him before.

[Sanjay]

I'm a little ill at ease with how cool foilist13 is with lynching AlmasterGM.

[Sanjay]

Ugh, because I was misreading him.

[Sanjay]

Well, that's what I was thinking, but he actually had AlmasterGM as his number one suspicion before the talk of the town became "Do we lynch foilist13 or do we lynch AlmasterGM?"

Here is where he first votes for AlmasterGM. There was a decent archaebob wagon going on at the time and there wasn't too much pressure on him.

Also the attitude of being okay with lynching AlmasterGM if he claimed power isn't new either:

@Almaster - I think it would be a good time to point out that you claiming some sort of power role won't influence my opinion at all unless it is accompanied by some sort of scum hunting as Archaebob has suggested.

This kind of makes me thing that foilist13 is an unlikely scumbuddy for AlmasterGM.

[Sanjay]

SpyreX, what do you make of the fact that since about post 368 or so, foilist13 has pretty much put himself in a position where AlmasterGM is his only strong suspicion? It seems like a tremendously bad position to take against your scumbuddy.

[Sanjay]

For the record, I just said the timeline was plausible. I still think your Muffin case looks artificial as all get out.

[Sanjay]

foilist13, what's your read on me right now?

[Sanjay]

As far as AlmasterGM lurking away his problems, I'm not really worried about that. If we don't lynch him today, it's not like we are going to forget about him. Maybe we would have, but with his constant reminders that he likes to lurk away his bandwagons, he could lurk until the cows come home and we'd still be there waiting for him with open arms and a noose.

Besides, how exactly do you expect to pressure a player who you've declared that it is absolutely the wrong move strategically to lynch, despite him being

Archaebob, what do you have so far as a peanutman/foilist13 connection? Is it just that leading question peanutman asked foilist13? If that's all you have, I think you are making a big leap to go from that to taking it for granted that peanutman

intentionally

aligned himself with a suspicious player.

[Sanjay]

Whoops, hit submit a little too early:

That second paragraph was supposed to be:

"Besides, how exactly do you expect to pressure a player who you've declared that it is absolutely the wrong move strategically to lynch, despite him being "very likely to be scum"."

[Sanjay]

Sigh.

Ok, if there is an actual doctor, please claim. 1-1 is fine.

If not, lets go through with foil. This is disheartening.

DO NOT DO THIS I'm switching.

[Sanjay]

A lot of people have posted since I started typing this. I'm just going to pretend that they didn't if that's okay.

@Sanjay - I've got a vague town read on you right now. I haven't seen anything that looks to me like a scum slip so far, but that doesn't mean I'm not looking.

@Archaebob - I'm not saying that there are questions that have gone unanswered other than the ones you just posted, but his choice has been to simply disappear and hope that I get myself lynched, where as I am actively trying to defend myself.

And if you are not tunneling, then what other players have you seriously considered besides me and Almaster?

@Almaster - Why shouldn't we lynch you? Is it just because you've said you were the Doc, or is there something else you have to offer?

Ha ha, foilist13. I can't believe you are accusing someone of tunneling in the same post as you continue your ridiculous policy of only having eyes for AlmasterGM.

Here's a question: Why did you consider it important that

I

considered your timeline plausible? I didn't notice it at first, but I think this is a scumslip on your part. Here's why?

Why is me finding something you said is plausible a point in your favor? For all you know I'm scummy scum trying to get the town to do my dirty work by having them lynch the power role so I don't have to. From what you know of my scum meta, I know you can trust me to

never

do that as scum, but you never know if I have changed my scum meta. I think you listed me finding your defense plausible as a point in your favor because you know my alignment.

This probably would have been a better zinger if you had said you have a neutral or scummy read on me, thus making you valuing my opinion totally bananas. But oh well. I think it is a good point anyway.

Anyway, AlmasterGM's recent defense is a little head-scratching, but it actually makes me feel better about lynching foilist13 than AlmasterGM. If nothing else, it takes away the only reason foilist13 had for us not lynching him.

Vote: foilist13

I want to see one of these two flip and I'm just fine with it being foilist13.

[Sanjay]

PS, bring it archaebob.

I'm guessing this is about my flip flopping my opinion on AGM, right?

[Sanjay]

Counter to 681

:

I really don't see that foilist13 quote as something I would need to worry about if I was scum and foilist13 flipped scum. He mentioned me. Big deal. How does foilist13 saying "Don't lynch me, Sanjay says I'm alright" implicate me as his scumbuddy? Hint: it doesn't.

The reason for the delay in reacting it because I didn't notice anything weird about it the first time I read it. When you quoted it again in post 640 is when I felt something was off about it.

Anyway, the point about him mentioning me wasn't the only reason I voted for foilist13. AlmasterGM's most recent post had a lot to do with it too. I've been kind of wavering between AGM being too scummy to be scum and scummy and that post put me more on the "too scummy to be scum" side.

And let me quote some of this:

So, you constructed this whole elaborate operation to get foilist to contradict himself, hoping to use it as the justification for your flip on him (which, btw, is way uncomfortably close to what you did to him in Newbie 846. Ironic that this time he's actually scum with you).

He didn't, but you were out of time, and decided to use it anyways

. Finally, you voted for foilist. Your sneaky bus/pre-emptive defense maneuver was complete.

How was I "out of time"? I really don't see what the huge pressure for me to vote foilist13 now is coming from. Despite MordyS's soft-claim as a triple voter, foilist13 isn't going to flip right away, and even if he was my scum buddy, I wouldn't have to worry about foilist13's quote until AFTER he flipped, and then only if someone noticed it, and then only if they could show how it implicates me.

Assume foilist13 is scum and show me an argument based on that quote which makes me scum. I don't think you can.

----

Counter to 683

:

The reason I asked you about why you were asking me about peanutman was because I was surprised you hadn't taken my post-846 advice. I told you that you need to start asking harder questions to people, and you asking me about peanutman seemed like a softball question.

I don't think I was implying that me acting scummy is a town tell. Come on. Firstly, I don't see how what I said even does that, and secondly, if I'm so smart, shouldn't I know that that is a totally retarded argument anyway?

----

Counter to 684

:

I was advocating lynching a guy just because I can't read him that well. At that point in the game, I hadn't finished examining every player. I felt that with my "Ultimately, he's probably going to be my lynch recommendation" comment was stronger than what I actually felt, especially since I hadn't even looked at everyone closely at that point.

I didn't see anyone overwhelmingly scummy besides foilist13, but there were a lot of people I didn't look that closely at (during my first few reads, infrequent posters like cruelty and peanutman barely blipped on my radar). Maybe what I said went without saying, but at the time I wanted to say it anyway.

----

Counter to 685

:

Not really a real defense since it wasn't an actual attack:

Come on dude, you know from the 846 scum QT that I love keeping you alive as scum. I was super disappointed when foilist13 revealed that you were the one he investigated. I was hoping it would be muh316 or something.

Anyway, that's kind of a dumb thing to say. If other people are scum, they could easily off you to try and cast suspicion on me. And if I'm scum, I could easily off you and say "Well, you can't trust the nightkill! WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM LOL LOL LOL"

[Sanjay]

So basically your argument that I am scum is that my argument was stupid and I'm not stupid, but yet your argument that I'm scum involves me being even stupider?

Look at it this way:

You brought up the foilist13 quote and said I was trying to cover it up.
I had an easy answer that the foilist13 quote doesn't actually implicate me.

So in your version of events, I looked at the foilist13 quote, I said "oh crap, this is going to get me lynched when my good buddy foilist13 flips", I was super worried about it, but then I came up with a genius plan to bring it up myself so it looks less scummy.

You call me on it, AND ONLY THEN do I realize that it isn't even that bad. All the while while I was scheming this never occurred to me because I was panicking so bad, but your attack gave me the clarity of vision to realize that I had nothing to worry about after all.

Is that your version of events, archaebob? I panic at a rate inversely proportional to the amount of pressure that's put on me?

Anyway, I think my argument is better than you give it credit.

foilist13's statement was weird. Me thinking his timeline was plausible shouldn't be something he lists in his favor. He wasn't even talking to me. It could be an innocent comment, sure, but when I looked at it again, I thought maybe he was scum proud that he had got me off his back.

Maybe he could be town proud of it too. Either way, foilist13 has seemed pretty keen that think well of his defenses for a while now, I've been feeling weird about it.

-----

Looking at peanutman was not the next thing on my agenda, and you gave me no reason why I should move it up. If you consider that a dodge, fine.

I didn't comment on the foilist13-peanutman connection, yeah. Because I don't see it nearly as strongly as you do. Besides, what's your case here? That I was so scared of the associative tells between foilist13 and peanutman that I made sure not to bring it up, but I was perfectly fine posting reasons to consider both of them scummy independently? What's my motivation as their cool, hip scumbuddy to do this? I want to distance them both, but I want to leave my options open so far as the order I bus them in?

-----

I tell people to keep in mind that I'm townish as scum partially because it's true and partially because I spent my entire first game entirely above suspicion and it was lame. I haven't done it much recently because KittyMo called it arrogant, but when I had a chance to remind people of it AND have a go at you, I couldn't resist. I mean look at the tone of that post. I was clearly teasing you.

You are incorrect to say that "Sanjay is townish as scum" implies that "Sanjay is scummy as town." I look townish independent of alignment.

How big of a master manipulator do you think I fashion myself as? You really think I was trying to convince you that scumtells are towntells for me? If I was planning on doing that I would just explain that I'm from Bizarro World, and that's also why I get more panicked the less pressure someone puts on me.

-----

The main reason I'd like AGM lynched is I find him being a doctor a little implausible. I feel like he's actively courted attention, which goes against how he describes his play as cop (granted, I haven't actually read the game. Maybe he just didn't happen to get into trouble and he's giving himself too much credit). Plus his "joke" seemed townish to me, but then he ruined it all by saying "ho ho ho, it was a joke, don't mind me", which seemed more like an excuse than an explanation.

I suppose from a certain point of view, the implausibility of the doc claim is a reason to believe it is legit, but I can definitely see scum trying to out a doc while they are going down, so that's not really what I was thinking.

[Sanjay]

I think if you re-read the context of that last quote, Gammagooey, you might want to withdraw the question sheepishly.

[Sanjay]

I probably shouldn't have ribbed you about 846. I had a really heartbreaking loss in my first game too and I probably wouldn't like it being brought up every other minute, especially when not totally game relevant.

As you might imagine, I was very pleased with how Newbie 846 went down and have been more than happy to bring it up at every opportunity. Maybe the next time you're in a game with SaintKerrigan and Garnasha, you'll understand. You're quite the heartbreaker yourself.

[Sanjay]

Yo, PhaerieM, what do you make of foilist13's case on Muffin?

[Sanjay]

SpyreX, why vote foilist13 and declare you'd happily hammer AlmasterGM instead of the other way around?

[Sanjay]

I mostly disagree with peanutman.

Voting without telling people why can but a fun and exciting adventure for both scum and town and there are plenty of reasons to do it for everybody!

Cool reasons town might want to vote without saying why:

1) They want to gauge reactions.
2) They feel like explaining their vote would compromise their scumhunting.
3) You don't have much of a case but you just feel like voting for a dude.

Cool reasons scum might want to do it:

1) To pretend you have one of the town reasons.
2) To make people think you are cool and hip and don't care what the town thinks.
3) Because you are worried about your wagon position and you want to get in as soon as possible.

Cool reasons anyone might want to do it:

1) Because you are cool and hip and don't care what the town thinks.
2) Because you are cool and hip and don't care what peanutman thinks.

BONUS:

Totally stupid reasons scum might want to do it:

1) You are an idiot and you think putting votes on people that you can't justify is a good idea.

------------

If you are thinking about voting without explanation, ask yourself if you have a good reason to. If you don't, I agree with peanutman, explain your vote.

But I don't see how voting without explaining is scummy at all.

You want to fill me in, peanutman?

[Sanjay]

SpyreX, why vote foilist13 and declare you'd happily hammer AlmasterGM instead of the other way around?

You saving this for tomorrow, SpyreX?

[Sanjay]

Can I read it as "I am voting for the scummy town player lynch that is coming through - however, I would gladly bus (if the town is going to lynch him anyway) my scumbuddy"?

[Sanjay]

Unvote

This is stupid.

[Sanjay]

I'd much rather lynch cruelty or Sociopath for his blatant lurking; wouldn't mind Sanjay either (get to him later).

I've already stated why I don't want AGM lynched

. Cruelty obviously isn't happening. Let's lynch the serial lurker instead.

When did this part happen?

[Sanjay]

I'm not feeling the foilist13 lynch anymore.

[Sanjay]

There is a fairly good chance that foilist13 is flustered town and a decent chance that AlmasterGM is terrible at playing doc. If we can't find someone else by deadline they can get lynched fine, but we're all going to be a lot happier as a town if we are wrong about a lurker than if we are wrong about foilist13 or AlmasterGM.

[Sanjay]

Well, cruelty could be lynched with zero harm to the town at all. I'm rereading the thread to see if I like him as scum. His playing close to the chest to avoid directing the nightkill is certainly laughable, because I don't see how scum would be at all concerned about what cruelty thinks.

As for realistic lynches, he's certainly someone to consider. So are you.

[Sanjay]

Which one was that? The one where you didn't state why you don't want AGM lynched? No, I didn't miss that one.

I saw you saying that foilist13 vs AlmasterGM is a crappy choice, but you'll pick foilist13 if you had to make it. After saying AlmasterGM was your number 2.

Is it because of the doc claim?

[Sanjay]

Besides, I thought I was your number 3? If you gave up on cruelty and you don't like AlmasterGM, what happened to me?

[Sanjay]

Vote: Sociopath

I don't have a stunning alternative lynch recommendation (I could see Cruelty's posts coming from town, though if he is I hope he takes my calling him useless to heart).

Sociopath's lurking could be genuine and it could be not, but it's going to suck if Sociopath survives to endgame with thirty pages less of data than anyone else. Vote Sociopath to keep that from happening.

Plus it'll be exciting to see what PhaerieM does once we take away her favorite candidate.

[Sanjay]

I lost my passion for lynching foilist13 and I thought the town would do well to be rid of someone who isn't posting.

[Sanjay]

Actually I don't know how much passion I had to begin with now that I think about it.

[Sanjay]

SpyreX is faking a posting restriction involving the word power.

[Sanjay]

Well, I guess you're a hero.

[Sanjay]

Well, that was extremely hilarious.

Vote: peanutman

[Sanjay]

Yes, thanks for asking.

You have any guesses?

[Sanjay]

Peanutman, could you elaborate on what about your Muffin reread made you okay with Sociopath's lynch?

[Sanjay]

I'm with PhaerieM. peanutman may have stalled the wagon by not immediately jumping on it, but he also asked for a PhaerieM prod.

What's the logic for scum to say "Oh, people are trying to form up a bandwagon on my the godfather. Why don't I try and call this to the attention of the one player who would be upset with the lynch of anyone else?"

If it was a bus, why bus in a way that gives you none of the credit for busing?

peanutman just reacted kind of scummishly to the pressure that was just put on him, so it kind of pains me to do this, but

Unvote

I had actually noticed the prod before PhaerieM had posted, but I figured I'd keep my vote on for a little while to see who jumped on.

As far as where the scum probably are, I agree with Papa Zito's list 100%.

[Sanjay]

A lot of players came off looking pretty pro-town after the Sociopath lynch. I have my own theory of why SpyreX was killed instead of some other people, but it's not like killing SpyreX was so out of the ordinary that it is worth thinking over much.

[Sanjay]

Huh, guess I wasn't around for the end of the day.

AGM's last 4 posts have contained 1 inane sentence and 3 unexplained votes, he's been scummy all day and HE gets to hammer? Sigh.

cruelty, could you explain your thinking behind this post? Why did you feel AlmasterGM was somehow unworthy to hammer an unknown alignment lurker?

As I recall, you weren't even that enthusiastic about the lynch.

[Sanjay]

Yo cruelty, I'm still tripping up on the wording of that quote I brought up.

Was there someone else you wanted to see hammer Sociopath? I still don't see why your issue was that AlmasterGM got to hammer as if the hammer is first prize for most pro-town dude.

That's certainly what it seems like reading that quote; am I right?

[Sanjay]

As far as my priorities go, my following post will be:

20% scumhunting
10% trying to paint myself as a hero for the Sociopath lynch
70% using an unnecessary metaphor that does not enhance understanding of my point

Enjoy...

[Sanjay]

C) If I hadn't made that post, PZ's vote wouldn't have changed Muffin/Socio's status as a "third party candidate", and no BW would've formed on him. I fail to see why, if scum, I would purposely draw attention to the Godfather when there is very little suspicion on him. I felt the town needed to stop tunneling two players and wait for the deadline, but rather be actively scumhunting. If I wanted to lynch Foilist, I wouldn't have brought up a possibility of a Muffin-lynch.

What is this?

Firstly, stop stealing my shine. Papa Zito is, of course, the superstar of the rejecting the "it's either AlmasterGM or folist13" idea, but if he's the Batman of the wagon, I'm the friggin' boy wonder. And not the campy Burt Ward boy wonder either. I'm Nightwing.

This is a picture of me, day 1, unvoting foilist13

While you were making silly posts about how you didn't really want to lynch foilist13 OR AlmasterGM and yet were for some reason still doing it (Post 751), I was rejecting that notion and helping keep Gotham City safe from criminals. BAM! POW! You asked for a prod on PhaerieM, yes. That gets you town points. But you are overstating the influence you had. Other people did the real work. All you did was throw up the Bat-Signal (PhaerieM is Batman in this metaphor too).

PhaerieM's would have almost certainly checked in at some point, and there is no way, given her previous posts, she would turn down a Sociopath lynch. I was quite keen on lynching someone besides foilist13 or AlmasterGM. SpyreX was down to lynch anybody, and MordyS certainly wasn't keen on a foilist13 lynch. Sociopath's lynch could have easily went down without you.

Secondly, you didn't purposely draw attention to the Godfather and you weren't the one who brought up a Sociopath lynch. AT ALL. Papa Zito did both of those. Am I missing where you did this to any extent that you would take credit for it?

Thirdly, and somewhat unrelatedly, why didn't you want to lynch cruelty day 1? Papa Zito would have certainly been down for that and I would have too. There's a whole host of players that probably would have been down with that. But it seems like you didn't really care about this option. You only iso-read Sociopath. What's up with that?

I'm starting to suspect a Sociopath-peanutman-cruelty love connection.

[Sanjay]

Him? Why on earth did you protect him? Sure he technically started the wagon on Socio, but it was Phaerie who really pushed the lynch, so a retal kill would probably go to her. There were several strong town players yesterday to choose from, and Papa Zito, being a replacement, was much less confirmed town than some of the others.

What is this, foilist13?

Papa Zito directed a wagon that could have gone in several directions squarely towards the mafia godfather. Even if there might have been more obviously town players, Papa Zito is a fine choice to save.

Also, what's all this about retaliation? AlmasterGM never said anything about trying to stop a retal kill.

Just because a player is scummy doesn't mean you can go after them with BS arguments.

Also, Happy Thanksgiving.

[Sanjay]

I remember thinking foilist13 was essentially cleared but I don't remember why.

I don't think I have enough suspects if all the people I consider essentially cleared actually are.

[Sanjay]

Maaaaan, I'm going to be really bummed if archaebob is replaced.

[Sanjay]

@ everyone -

Given what we now know about Muffin's alignment, does anyone have a new perspective on the Muffin vs. Chinaman dialogue near the beginning of Day 1?

At the time, I thought it was town on town. We know now that it wasn't that. However, I'm still getting the vibe that they had the same alignment...

archaebob, I'm curious:

What are the features that a town vs town dialogue shares with a scum vs scum dialogue? I really can't think of any. What is this "same alignment" vibe you are talking about?

@ Sanjay -

I'd love to know what you think about cruelty. Love as in

love

.

As far as cruelty goes, he's seeming a lot more townish today. I don't know what was with all the unnecessary attitude yesterday, but I'm not enthusiastic about a cruelty lynch.

I know sometimes it is hard to understand love, but why do you ask?

[Sanjay]

Not sure who to vote for yet.

I have too many town reads.

[Sanjay]

@ Sanjay - why did you unvote foilist at the last second yesterday?

and ur right, the two have nothing in common. that's not my point. that whole conversation just seems...planted. I never really felt very comfortable with their dialouge, and now that I'm looking at it again, it's bothering me even more. It just seems so convenient...the two of them went after eachother over basically nothing, giving them the appearance that they were doing something productive, while they were actually just tunneling eachother. Muffin was called out for this, and ultimately got lynched. I still don't think that was a smart move, given what we knew at the time, but it happened, and he flipped godfather. What I'm curious about is why Chinaman slipped away. And then I remembered. He got replaced.

There's nothing concrete here atm, I just want people to read over that exchange again, and decide if it all pinges their gut, now that we know Muffin's alignment.

The whole conversation seemed planted so you thought it was town on town?

You are breaking my heart, archaebob.

[Sanjay]

Also, I thought my reasons for unvoting foilist were pretty clear when I did it. I wasn't feeling the lynch.

I'm a little surprised that you seem just as suspicious of me today as compared to yesterday. Did nothing that happened yesterday give you a clue I might be town? True I didn't unvote foilist13 with a deliberate goal of lynching Muffin, but couldn't I have very easily put my vote somewhere else if I wanted to avoid a Muffin lynch?

It's not as much mental gymnastics as having a scum read on Papa Zito, but how do you think the events of yesterday are compatible with me being scum?

Also, Muffin got lynched because Sociopath didn't post. Not because of the Chinaman Muffin conversation. I think PhaerieM was the only one on the wagon because of a strong scum read.

[Sanjay]

The following is a response to post 995:

Firstly, your "why is Sanjay not obv town after the events of day 1" hypothesis is a nice little hypothesis. I think it is a little conceited to think that I so feared your onslaught that I would bus my flying under the radar Godfather to avoid it, but alright. There are some points I think are a little iffy (like I couldn't go back to the AlmasterGM wagon, yeah right, I can do anything I want). But it doesn't much matter. I'm not as concerned with convincing you I'm obv town than in seeing what your reasons are for thinking I'm not.

And it seems like your me being scum hypothesis is pretty tied in to foilist13 being scum. Is that an unfair assessment?

As for why I wasn't feeling the foilist13 wagon anymore, does anyone know why anyone feels anything? Feelings are strange and fickle mistresses of the mind and what is one day one's fervent passion can the next day be the slightest afterthought. I know feelings can be scary, but sometimes we just have to accept them.

But more seriously, I think foilist13's little "dead man walking" routine kind of made me think I was wrong about him. I stand by why I voted for him and I do think it was kind of weird that he cited the fact that I thought his argument was convincing as a point for him, but it could come from town.

What kind of gets me head scratching is your little explanation of town vs scum and scum vs scum. Let's see them again:

Scum vs. Town -

When I read the exchange thinking that it's scum-Muffin vs. town-Chinaman all along, it really doesn't work for me. And this is because Muffin being scum requires him to be aware of all the roles,

including the fact that Chinaman is town

. I fail to see what Muffin would have to gain from tunneling a town player who nobody else was even looking at seriously, especially given the existence by that point of other much more plausible lynch candidates. Why would he waste his time getting himself so strongly associated with Chinaman, a town player, at the expense of an early spot on either a mislynch or a bus wagon? I can see how poor play could possibly be involved, but I

know

that Muffin is an intelligent player, and this explanation is not particularly satisfying.

Scum vs. Scum -

This option, however, makes perfect sense. The two scum have a go at each other, over NOTHING. There are serious payoffs to this. 1) They seem like they are doing something, when they aren't. 2) One of them getting lynched is pretty implausible, over all. 3) If one of them DOES get lynched, town points go to the other player.

It's mega-distancing, and SEEMS like town vs. town. What better way is there for two scum to slip under the radar?

Which, btw, they pretty much did. I'd bet pretty heavy money that had Muffin not been replaced by a total non-poster, he would have survived till at least today.

Unfortunately, due to a fluke, Muffin wound up flipping prematurely. And now, I'm having a very difficult time seeing his interactions with Chinaman as scum vs. town.

Firstly, saying Muffin was tunneling Chinaman is a big ol' misrepresentation. When Chinaman let up, Muffin let up. Muffin trying to get something going on Chinaman, keeping it up long enough to see if it'll work, and giving up on it. Not tunneling at all.

Secondly, are you telling me that you fail to see what Muffin would have to gain from attacking a town player who nobody else was even looking at seriously? Are you reading your own posts? If being early on a mislynch wagon is important to a scum player, what could be better than starting your own mislynch wagon?

Muffin is an intelligent player, but you think all Muffin should have been capable of is jumping on to other people's wagons. Kind of some cognitive dissonance here. Besides, this was page 4. The fact that no one had looked at Chinaman seriously means absolutely nothing. At that point in the game, it definitely wasn't locked in stone who was going to be the day's lynch. Your analysis of why the interaction isn't scum vs town has some REALLY weird assumptions.

I don't think Chinaman had a go at Muffin over nothing. Chinaman had a go at Muffin because Muffin made a bad case against him and in his mind misrepresented him. That doesn't seem legitimate to you?

You are stretching a lot to make this "Sanjay is scum" thing work, archaebob.

[Sanjay]

Vote: Peanutman

[Sanjay]

@ Sanjay -

I think it is a little conceited to think that I so feared your onslaught that I would bus my flying under the radar Godfather to avoid it, but alright.

This isn't fair, Sanjay. I wouldn't think this about just anyone, but

you

made several comments about my play in both the Newbie 846 post-game and in the QT that do suggest this might be the case. It's not conceit, it's me trying to figure out how I'd expect you to react to me if you were scum, based on my past experience with you.

i'll respond to the rest later, I don't have time tonight.

I'll concede the point that it isn't fair for me to call you conceited. But it was either that or think that you think me a total idiot and a selfish bastard.

If I was really so scared of you, why wouldn't I just night kill you? Is that really that much worse of a plan than offing my godfather, who had practically no suspicion on him? As I recall, PhaerieM was the only one on that wagon that even had strong scum vibes from the dude. Most everyone else was policy lynching.

Also, I'm a lot less scared of you after my ninja defenses shot down everything you threw at me last time.

HIYA!

[Sanjay]

Unofficial vote count:

Cruelty (4) Papa Zito, AlmasterGM, Gammagoey, foilist13
archaebob (2) peanutman, PharieM
peanutman (3) cruelty, MordyS, archaebob


Not Voting (1) Sanjay

---

@Sanjay, I'd like to see you commit to someone.
@Peanut, you stole my thunder. I was going to bring that up later. :/
@Bob, Why did you ask me for my cruelty case and then ignore it?

You missed this post. Apparently so did peanutman.

I know I should stop voting for him without explanation, but it is just so darn funny

Bob, you'll have your response. What are you worried about?

[Sanjay]

I think WIFOMy defenses are just fine in this instance for two reasons.

One, I don't really think of this as a defense. I think your theory that foilist13 is my scumbuddy and I shifted a wagon from foilist13 to Sociopath because I was worried how the foilist13 wagon would reflect on me isn't very good, I am trying to point out why it is implausible and trying to figure out why you are sporting this implausible theory.

Two, it isn't even WIFOM. I'm not claiming that the fact that you weren't night killed means I'm town. Here's the thing. According to your theory, I got my godfather lynched (who had practically no suspicion on him) instead of foilist13 (who people were totally down to lynch), just to get you off my back. That's retarded, given that I could have nightkilled you instead. You are saying I did something really extreme and harmful to my win condition and the motivation you have ascribed me for this just doesn't make sense.

Am I auto town because of how the Sociopath lynch went down? No. I could be doing it to gain townie points. I might not have liked the position I had on the foilist13 lynch and I sought to move myself somewhere less suspicious. But the reasons you had? Silly.

The reason I said I would be selfish to lynch Sociopath like I did, by the by, is because I think if Sociopath was my scumbuddy I think at that stage of the game it would be better to get a little bit more heat on me than to turn attention to him.

This isn't about me. It's about you.

As for my foilist13 unvote, let me lay this out for you nice and pretty:

I had a lot of reasons why I was cool with a foilist13 lynch. Still do, I guess. I think his "Sanjay thinks I'm town" stuff was weird, I hate that he's probably going to survive to endgame with all this stuff against him (his bizarre MordyS vote, the fact that he has barely scumhunted etc. etc.), and I've had a tough time nailing down a solid read on him. All that means I definitely wouldn't mind the town stringing him up (sorry foilist13).

I didn't have a strong scum read on foilist13. I had a strong ridiculous read on him. And his appeal to emotion stuff appealed to my emotions. Sorry? I know scum can use that stuff to trick townies into thinking they are town, but I guess I wasn't that worried about that from foilist13. While it isn't pro-town, I think giving up in the face of a strong wagon against you is a town-tell (not in this game anymore since I said that, but still).

Plus all this waaa waa waaa I want to vote for someone else but we have to vote AlmasterGM or foilist13 stuff really stunk to me. Even if Muffin had flipped town, I think we would have been better off. In a town of super-contributors, getting absolutely nothing from Sociopath would have been devestating.

[Sanjay]

By the way, archaebob, since your problem with me is mostly meta based (The Sanjay I know is a strong analytical player, what's with him voting with his feelings?) let me make some comments on my meta:

In 846, I played an analytical game for two reasons. One, there was a town player who really had control of the town discussion and he seemed to respond well to me being the analytical voice of reason. Two, I find it kind of easy to come up with legitimate reason to vote for townies, but I get nervous faking gut reads.

And if you think me ignoring solid cases to go with my gut is somehow strange for me, let me point you to some other games:

Newbie 825: My very first game where I had strong gut reads on both the scum and a town read on everyone else and threw it all away because I found strong cases to make against other people. Losing this game was absolutely devastating and it has definitely shaped my play.

Dice Mafia: This one is actually hilarious and a quick read if you'd like to check it out. Midway through the day me and this other player just decided we didn't like any of the cases against anyone and started lynching arbitrarily. It worked out fantastically

Newbie 837: In six-person mylo, I had solid cases on three different people (one scum, two town) and a gut scum read on the other scumster but absolutely no case against him. This game actually gave me quite a sense of redemption for Newbie 825, because one of the townies I had a solid case against was the same player I built a bogus case against in Newbie 825.

Again, all this doesn't confirm me as town. I'm quite aware of my town meta and could certainly be playing to it as scum. But it does mean you don't really have a meta case against me.

[Sanjay]

I'm fine dropping it

Can we still talk about your ridiculous interpretation of the Chinaman Muffin conversations?

[Sanjay]

archaebob, do you think I'm suspicious as far as the conversation goes just because of Muffin tunneling Chinaman, or because of Chinaman tunneling Muffin?

[Sanjay]

I'm kind of not feeling a cruelty lynch. I actually agree with archaebob on quite a bit:

1) I don't think cruelty is scum.
2) I think we have been a little hasty to label as many people as we have obv. town.
3) I just reread the thread and, you know what? I think I'm town all of a sudden.

As far as number 2 goes, I've reconsidered my obv town view on PhaerieM. Yeah, she got Sociopath lynched. But, if she was scum, given the positions she had taken, when Papa Zito was like "Is anyone up for a Sociopath lynch?" it's not like she could have turned it down. I'm moving her to more of a null read, but I do still really hope she's town/Batman.

Pretty excited about the upcoming deadline. There's a handful of players I wouldn't mind seeing flip, and seeing another wagon pile up is just going to be great.

By the way, if we have a doctor out there that isn't AlmasterGM, I guess you can stay unclaimed until later if you really want, but seriously, giving up the doctor to put the town up 2 to nothing would be super great. I'm not going to take the lack of a counterclaim as evidence for AGM's innocence since I guess we might not even have a doctor, but still, consider it.

[Sanjay]

Unvote

[Sanjay]

This thread needs a healthy sprinkling of Phaerie dust.

[Sanjay]

Bippity boppity boo.

[Sanjay]

Where?

[Sanjay]

You go read the thread, Mordy. My resisting that wagon was utterly consistent with my play, and I have no doubt I'd be under quite a bit more heat had I suddenly just hopped over to the big wagon like everyone else.

How come you get to use WIFOM to defend yourself but I don't?

[Sanjay]

I don't think doctors are usually told when they are roleblocked, MordyS. Had AlmasterGM claimed to protect SpyreX we would know something, but since he didn't, we certainly can't rule out a roleblocker.

If both these claims are real, the mafia likely have some ability to stop a follow the cop strategy.

[Sanjay]

AlmasterGM, ask the mod for some role clarification.

[Sanjay]

OH JEEZ.

DON'T POST THE RESPONSE TO US THOUGH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.

Pretty sure paraphrasing is fine but you might want to check that too.

[Sanjay]

Can't hurt!

[Sanjay]

Oh damn, I forgot I was good at defending myself.

Vote: Sanjay

[Sanjay]

Oh, I guess I

accidentally

disabled BBCode for that post.

WHOOPS.

[Sanjay]

Basically I think your reasoning for my lynch is a little silly, AlmasterGM.

[Sanjay]

Oh.

Whoops.

Unfakevote.

[Sanjay]

I'm sorry, AlmasterGM. I skipped to the reasons and I guess I missed what they were reasons for.

I guess I just kind of assumed you were totally wacky? My bad.

The reasoning for investigating me is pretty solid. Thanks for your confidence in my defensive abilities.

Though, personally, all I'll get out of it is greater insight into peanutman's sanity, and I'd rather get more than that, and I think PhaerieM is more of a mystery than me.

[Sanjay]

Uh, think I missed a page. Or two. Sanjay, why am I a mystery?

I guess I just don't understand women

.

Basically, there are some great reasons to think you are town but a few good reasons to be suspicious. I'm just a little wary of you for being the only person suspicious of Muffin on the Muffin lynch. And while I agree that it would be poor mafia play to have taken the positions you did, you might not have anticipated us moving away from the foilist13 or AlmasterGM decision. And I guess during twilight you made a kind of big show of being excited and being unsure how Muffin was going to flip, which is something I've done as scum so it made me go, hm...

And you are also a mystery because you haven't posted as much so it is harder to get a read on you.

I guess this post looks a little weird if you are scum though.

[Sanjay]

I guess by trying to get the investigation elsewhere I'm just making it more likely I'm going to be investigated, but I'd really rather someone else be investigated. The only way I'm really excited about an investigation on me is if it turns up guilty (I'd know scum is in the set {peanutman and AlmasterGM}, you'd know it is in the set {peanutman, AlmasterGM, Sanjay}.

I guess archaebob would be fine (if we don't end up lynching archaebob) because though I want to believe in my heart of hearts that he's town, there's some pretty bananas stuff going on with that guy. foilist13 is a pretty unreadable guy too.

I kind of think that the scummier the player the better, because then we'd get greater insight into peanutman's sanity.

But also...

Why are we even talking about this? We've got a deadline lynch to consider.

[Sanjay]

What is scummy about it?

[Sanjay]

I really do think that we probably shouldn't even be talking about the investigation.

[Sanjay]

Suck it.

[Sanjay]

Nah, I'm just kidding, you're cool, Pikachu.

[Sanjay]

So while I've got you guys here, is it just me or is archaebob reacting kinda hysterically to being attacked? Rather badly, I'd say.

I understand his objections to your points.

I don't understand his suspicion of you based on those objections.

[Sanjay]

Because the cop is the guy with the role and there are various problems introduced when "town" tries to direct the cop.

Basically the quote marks illustrate one of my objections.

My other objection is that if the mafia know who is being investigated, if they have a role like a busdriver or a framer or something that's seriously bad news bears.

[Sanjay]

So while I've got you guys here, is it just me or is archaebob reacting kinda hysterically to being attacked? Rather badly, I'd say.

I understand his objections to your points.

I don't understand his suspicion of you based on those objections.

Could you address this, archaebob?

[Sanjay]

I distanced Gambor so hard he quit the game.

[Sanjay]

It now seems as though this is realistically between MordyS and Archaebob, and I am inclined to choose MordyS.

How is this justification for a vote in this town?

[Sanjay]

The main thing that is giving me pause about archaebob is that if he is scum it really surprises me to find him in such a compromising situation. I'm pretty much calling up "too scummy to be scum" here. scum-archaebob shouldn't need the pep talk MordyS just gave.

That's kind of WIFOMy and a little bit meta influenced, I know. But still.

[Sanjay]

MordyS, does knowing archaebob is actually a pretty capable scumster change your read on the situation?

I have to reread that game to see if he was ever really attacked seriously (he kind of skated through to LYLO without people even being worried about him if I remember correctly, but I wasn't in the game so I might not), but archaebob's attack on you just seems so ill-advised I'm really surprised he's making it as scum.

[Sanjay]

I agree with cruelty.

foilist13's "Yeah, let's make this MordyS vs archaebob!" is anti-town at best.

[Sanjay]

MordyS, why do you think I switched to foilist13?

[Sanjay]

As far as you go, yes.

Looking over my foilist13 vote, I can see why you think it was/thought it was busing.

That being said, your logic today has been ridiculous, and I don't think MordyS is scummy for going after you, especially when cruelty has been seeming pretty town today and his main choice claimed cop.

[Sanjay]

Remember how when you re-read Chinaman-Muffin for maybe the 18th time you finally realized that town vs. scum was a very real possibility despite you ruling that out? How did you feel about your logic then?

I have felt like that about your logic all day.

I see why you are tunneled on me, I really do. I see why you have been trying to make sense in your mind that I'm scum. But you've really been training to make that happen.

In my opinion, I can definitely see why town-MordyS might think that you are the right lynch today. I'll review his posts again and let you know how I feel about them in more detail if you'd like.

As for my vote, it's going on foilist13:

Vote: foilist13

peanutman claiming cop has really messed me up here. While being aware of the danger of Batman secretly being Palpatine or whatever, the fact is the Muffin lynch gave me town reads on a lot of people (who I already felt were town before the lynch). Additionally, cruelty has pulled a town read from me out of nowhere, and Gammagooey and archaebob have always seemed townish to me.

So I guess the choice for me today, is between foilist13 and AlmasterGM, funnily enough. I pick foilist13 both because he feels more likely to be scum AND because lynching AlmasterGM today is strategically silly.

The added benefit is that a foilist13 flip is probably the most interesting flip as far as increasing town knowledge goes.

EDIT: It looks like I'm getting ninja'd by MordyS's monster post. I'll respond to it in a later post.

[Sanjay]

archaebob, take a step back.

Imagine for a second that you are completely sure that MordyS is town.

You remember Newbie 846 where you were so completely tunneled on Python you didn't see the big picture? Did scum manipulate you into doing that? No. You did that to yourself.

I know you have a scum read on me or whatever and you think I'm MordyS's scumbuddy so you might not take this from me that well, but seriously, try and see things from a MordyS is town perspective.

I mean, EVEN IF MordyS is scum, he is saying a lot of accurate stuff here. You know he's an intelligent guy. Not everything he says is going to be a lie regardless of alignment.

[Sanjay]

@ Sanjay -

Nice try.

And props for finding a person you could drop your vote on without needing to take a stand in this little battle.

EXCUSE ME?

How am I not taking a stand in this little battle? At all?

I have a town read on MordyS and a town read on you. While I have enough town reads that at least one of them is undoubtedly wrong, I really don't see why either of you should be the lynch today.

Come on, archaebob.

[Sanjay]

You really flipped a coin, MordyS?

[Sanjay]

@ Sanjay -

You've said my logic today was ridiculous. The only example you've cited was my interpretation of the Chinaman/Muffin dialouge. I agree, that was a little ridiculous. But you'll notice that i've since retracted that argument, at the expense of a significant amount of face, and "political capital", which I supposedly covet so much. Is this the extent of things you find illogical about me?

You can appeal to my emotions as much as you want, Sanjay, but you haven't demonstrated in any capacity why my attacks on MordyS are at all invalid. If you think I'm ridiculous, prove it. I'm inviting you to defend Mordy, since you've decided that he's town. Until you have explained why you aren't at all irked by the contradictions I have brought up in Mordy's play, i consider every assertion you have made regarding my being "ridiculous", "illogical", or even "wrong" to be a scum-tell.

And i really don't buy your foilist vote. Again.

Okay, gotcha. I'll review your attacks on MordyS tomorrow and see if you've come up with something new that really catches my eye. I'm done with this game for today.

But as for your logic being ridiculous, my point was that your logic pre-MordyS's vote for you had been ridiculous and could be seen as scummy, so I see why you attracted MordyS's attention. The main thing that comes to mind is your Muffin-Chinaman case.

You got a problem with today's foilist vote? Or yesterdays?

MordyS, what do you see as implausible about the archaebob being misguided town theory?

[Sanjay]

Better than foilist13?

[Sanjay]

I cannot fathom how town Mordy would have not defaulted to questioning cruelty, given some reason for having not done so, or at least remembered that he had at one point suspected cruelty, and felt like he needed to explain himself better. i don't believe he every actually suspected cruelty, I believe his play was opportunistic, and he spent so much time questioning peanutman that he forgot he had pretended to have a strong town read on me earlier.

Please respond to this, everyone. This is the most directly scummy contradiction I have seen from anyone all game.

Could you respond to this, MordyS?

It is at least a reason to think archaebob's attack on you was justified, and at most a reason for me to doubt my town read on you.

[Sanjay]

Well, don't you think your reasons to pass on cruelty were a bit poorly spelled out here?

[Sanjay]

When you first spelled it out. The thing about heuristics.

[Sanjay]

MordyS, why is it when I brought up archaebob's meta you were like "Cool, I'll give it some thought" and when archaebob brought up his meta you were like "meta, more like suck-a, in that the town will be suckas if we look at your meta"

Also, have you given it some thought? It doesn't seem like it.

[Sanjay]

MordyS, where do you think the second scum is?

Here are your choices:

On the wagon: Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, foilist13, AlmasterGM

Off the wagon: cruelty, archaebob, peanutman, Gammagooey

You've stated a belief that Papa Zito, PhaerieM, me and foilist13 are town. You think peanutman and Gammagooey are town. AlmasterGM is potentially cleared by peanutman.

Why are you dropping your case on cruelty right now? Can you tell me what gave you this feeling that if you push on archaebob he would freak out?

[Sanjay]

Better hurry up.

If this becomes MordyS vs archaebob, I'm voting you.

[Sanjay]

MordyS, you know damn well how that is going to make you look.

Why do it?

[Sanjay]

Yo, Big Papa:

Why aint foilist13 on the list?

I admit that I'm mostly lynching him because I don't want him around at lylo, but foilist13 was off the list of probable scum and I really can't remember why that was the case.

[Sanjay]

archaebob, you scumhunt better when you have less time on your hands.

[Sanjay]

If foil is investigated and turns up innocent I'll have no idea whether peanutman is sane, insane, naive or lying.

[Sanjay]

What's the vote count anyway?

[Sanjay]

Papa Zeets: what is with calling archaebob out on buddying just now? Surely that's not something you consider an accurate scumtell.

[Sanjay]

Why is it the first time you've called someone out on it (I haven't checked, I'm assuming)?

This isn't the first time you've noticed something that could be construed as buddying, especially when practically anything can be.

[Sanjay]

I mean, I called you the Batman for goodness sake.

[Sanjay]

That's how I took it.

I assumed archaebob respected PhaerieM's judgment when he said he wanted to tone down the debate with MordyS after PhaerieM posted that she thought the debate was hard to follow and bad for the town. I don't think taking good advice is scummy.

I suppose I see how appealing to PhaerieM's sensibilities does benefit archaebob-scum though, so I guess point to you.

I just don't really care for buddying as a strong scum tell.

[Sanjay]

foilist13, who do you think the most obv. town player considering just day 1 was?

[Sanjay]

I'd personally like to believe that cruelty's improvement in play is because I asked him to play better. Just an ego thing.

cruelty, could you expand on/clarify this:

Yep. I feel like foilist and archaebob are circling each other. I think it's weird that nobody else seems to want to look at this.

Also, I'm really unconvinced by this on/off wagon stuff. You lynched a guy based on lurking - I can't argue with the results but I don't think you can really justify calling me scummy because I didn't really want to move off someone I thought (think) was (is) genuinely scummy. It's not as though I've been flip flopping or inconsistent in any way. Genuinely don't understand.

Here is my thinking on that. Basically, the Muffin lynch gave us a buttload of town reads. Unless there was some pretty masterful manipulation (on Papa Zito's part), sloppy play (PhaerieM's part), or sage wisdom of when to bus (my or MordyS's part), it seems to me like we are pretty likely town. Also, archaebob and Gammagooey seemed very townish day 1. AlmasterGM and peanutman aren't great lynch candidates. I can't tell the difference between foilist town and foilist scum and, thanks for nothing, now you've given me a town read.

Scum are playing pretty good and I think given that, you totally can see the lynch of someone who seems to be town.

I guess Papa Zito has more faith in the wagon related reads than the other reads. It's a pretty defensible position.

---

My thoughts on MordyS:

Maybe out of laziness, I still haven't fully reread and analyzed the archaebob vs MordyS fight. But that foilist13 vote seemed really townish to me. I mean, it's SO OBVIOUSLY BAD.

Maybe I'm just a sucker for people who are too scummy to be scum. I know I am. But still, I think MordyS is town now. He's either that or putting on a really good frustration act.

I'm not so sure about MordyS vs archaebob anymore that I would definitely site with archaebob.

I'm going to reread foilist13 to see if I can get anything scummy about him and not just anti-town.

[Sanjay]

I really like the idea of a Muffin-archaebob-foilist13 scumteam just because the idea of me replacing into a game to be haunted by the three townies I wronged most in Newbie 846 is extremely beautiful.

If I was Albert Einstein just trying to find the most elegant explanation for the universe, I could stop my scumhunting right here.

[Sanjay]

That's how I scumhunt when I don't have any gut reads.

Sorry!

[Sanjay]

Well, dang.

My bad, MordyS.

[Sanjay]

By the way, there is one thing that is scummy about foilist13 and not just anti-town:

Here.

Context: AlmasterGM just revealed he protected Papa Zito last night. Here is what foilist13 had to say:

Him? Why on earth did you protect him? Sure he technically started the wagon on Socio, but it was Phaerie who really pushed the lynch, so a retal kill would probably go to her. There were several strong town players yesterday to choose from, and Papa Zito, being a replacement, was much less confirmed town than some of the others.

Right now I find Almaster and cruelty (in light of Gammagooey's evidence) super scummy.

This is ludicrous. Papa Zito was very likely town given the Muffin lynch, and this attack is just terribly scummy.

When I questioned him about it the first time, he never answered and I guess I let it slide and mostly forgot about it. I was too pleased with myself for that Nightwing post I guess.

[Sanjay]

What's troublesome? I had a town read on the guy. I thought your initial case on him was bogus and I could see why he might react badly to it. And not being that great at scumhunting and being tunneled are all things I expected from town archaebob.

Not that it's that big of a deal. If we lynch archaebob, he comes up scum, a nightkill goes through, and there's just three scum, we'll be at 7 townies versus 1 scum and very few ideas of who that scum is. We'll have plenty of mislynches if we need them.

Not that I expect us to. I think I can win foilist13 vs Sanjay pretty handily.

[Sanjay]

The way I felt it exonerated him: you were accusing him of making a newb-scum mistake, freaking out at being voted for. I felt it unlikely that archaebob would be making that mistake, given that he knows what he is doing as scum.

And as for that particular section, I think that, if archaebob is scum in this game, he's done a very good job of modifying his playstyle to match his town meta. He seems pretty reasonable in 842. In 846, he was very prone to tunneling and loved walls in his offense and just really bludgeoning his suspects with words.

846-archaebob needed to be reigned in and flew off the handle. That's what I saw here.

[Sanjay]

But you're right. The case against me will be here tomorrow.

You did good today.

[Sanjay]

If I die, when you see my flip, vote MordyS/Sanjay. I hope you guys won't just assume that I'm crazy, because I'm not. Look out how Sanjay has danced around this conversation.

Him reverting back to me

after it became clear that I was ultimately the under-dog is EXACTLY what I was expecting from him.

Maybe this is some kind of trick to get me to mention how much I had your back, but this is a ridiculous misrepresentation. What position am I reverting back to? When did I ever want your lynch?

It's nice to know you aren't just really bad at scumhunting, archaebob.

[Sanjay]

I asked what player you felt was most likely town at the end of day one, foilist13. Given the Muffin flip

[Sanjay]

foilist13, why did you think Papa Zito was a bad doc protect again?

Walk us through the logic real slow.

[Sanjay]

You don't think Papa Zito is obv. town based on the Muffin lynch then?

[Sanjay]

@Sanjay - No. Papa is not Obv. town. I've seen scum post cases on their scum buddies once it seemed like there were two opposing wagons that were a sure thing to do some nice distancing. I have had personal experience with this, and I think it is far from impossible that that is exactly what Papa was doing, and obviously he couldn't just back down once it started going somewhere.

Oh cool.

So you want to explain why despite him being fourth on your scumlist yesterday you've done zero Papa Zito directed scumhunting today?

[Sanjay]

Uh, noted?

[Sanjay]

Uh, MordyS, you know with your vote he's at L-1, right?

[Sanjay]

Unofficial Vote Count:

archaebob (5) peanutman, Papa Zito, Gammagooey, AlmasterGM, MordyS

MordyS (2) archaebob, foilist13
Foilist13 (3) Sanjay, cruelty

Not voting: (1) PharieM

PhaerieM unvoted amid all this hammering talk.

[Sanjay]

You want it for sentimental reasons? Unvote.

[Sanjay]

I

don't

want it for sentimental reasons.

[Sanjay]

In that I'd rather not hammer archaebob.

[Sanjay]

Vote: archaebob, my best buddy/pal

[Sanjay]

You don't think Papa Zito is obv. town based on the Muffin lynch then?

Assuming you're town, then is it really good play to consider anyone obv. town?


I mean, you've changed your tone re: me, you say I'm now giving you a town read - if this is the case can you conceive of PZ being the most badass busser in Plainview?


I mean, if you really read his initial post/vote for Sociopath, it doesn't actually say much and there wasn't really a whole heap that followed leading up to the lynch. I don't really think that there's a huge obv. town read for him in day 1 at all. It's entirely based on his instigating the Muffin lynch. I'm not saying he's scum by any means, I'm saying I don't like that there are two players (PZ and GG) who are basically immune to scumhunting at the moment - nobody is even looking sideways at them.

Maaaybe I was leading him on a bit to get him to answer in a way that makes him look bad. I admit that.

foilist13 harshly criticized AlmasterGM for saving Papa Zito. Harshly. As if protecting Papa Zito was the stupidest thing in the world.

But yet, foilist13 himself has paid Papa Zito no attention today.

It seems like a contradiction to me that foilist13 thinks the same person is townish enough to completely ignore (despite having him as a suspect yesterday), and yet scummy enough that a doctor would be a fool to protect him.

[Sanjay]

jesus, Mordy, I must really have you terrified.

I actually have to get offline now. Good luck town.

I'm sorry archaebob if you had more to say.

I legitimately thought this was you signing out from the game.

[Sanjay]

Ugh.

Now I just hope you're scum so we can hug this out later.

[Sanjay]

bullshit, Sanjay. Bull shit. And that was pretty low.

Who says "good luck, town" signing off

for the night

?

archaebob, regardless of if you are town or scum, I feel really bad. I really thought you gave up there.

If you are town and legitimately think I'm scum, know that I have no motivation to lie here. The lynch was going to happen either way, and people haven't been taking much stock in your arguments anyway, so this wasn't to prevent you from posting stuff against me.

And I definitely have no reason to lie when I say I'm sorry.

For what it's worth, you can actually talk all you want here. The rules don't forbid twilight talking.

[Sanjay]

Yeah, I see how obvious that is in retrospect.

If you are scum you know I'm town, telling the truth, am sorry, and am just an idiot, and if you are town you assume I'm scum, so I guess we have all bases covered.

[Sanjay]

right. just "remind everyone". very subtle.

if peanutman inspects Mordy and says that he's town, then he's confirmed naive cop.

I can't decide whether archaebob is convinced enough that I am the second scum or not to judge whether or not this is a scum slip, re: it assumes AlmasterGM is innocent.

[Sanjay]

He can probably also rely on his remaining scumbuddy to help him out, right? He should be good for two days at least.

[Sanjay]

I mean, if you are giving advice to a scumster, you might as well mention that.

[Sanjay]

MordyS, did you not pick up the subtext of my last two posts?

archaebob has nothing to be embarrassed about and I think played really well.

[Sanjay]

@ mordy -

c'mon man, i'm not dumb. you won't kill AGM tonight. if peanutman says your scum, then you say that he's insane, and get AGM lynched. if he say's your town, then you say that he must be sane or naive. You might even still try to get AGM lynched. you're good for at least another day, and it's not like you can avoid the cop inspection tonight anyways, so why not appear townie by seeming like you're trying to draw it?

archaebob either:

1) has a scumbuddy he underestimates.
2) wants people to think he has a scumbuddy he underestimates.
3) accuses people he thinks are scum by giving them advice that assumes they have one less scumbuddy than they actually have.

[Sanjay]

foilist13, do not replace out of all of your other games.

[Sanjay]

That's fine. We'll have a good time arguing.

But do not replace out of your games.

If you have to lurk a little, lurk a little, but

please

stay in your games. It's a jerk move to replace out on people when you don't need to, and it's not worth doing it to loads of people just because you think this game is more important or something.

Besides, if you are town, there are plenty of other townies to scumhunt, so I would only assume you replacing out of a lot of games would be a scumtell, especially is archaebob flips scum.

[Sanjay]

So we got one scum, guaranteed?

And what a lucky town we are, to have both a roleblocker AND a doctor. So much disruption of the mafia's nightkill.

[Sanjay]

Gammagooey, I'm interested to know why you thought the mafia's primary concern as far as the AGM choice would be getting roleblocked.

Isn't that a somewhat less conventional town ability? I'm curious why you thought you ought to be concerned about it.

[Sanjay]

I think you are missing the subtle accusation that was hidden in that quote, Papa Zito.

By the way, PhaerieM, I more or less explained to archaebob what happened that made me ready to vote him. Basically, I messed up and misunderstood him badly.

I was definitely okay with his lynch though. I thought foilist13 was probably scum. I either had town reads (everyone besides AlmasterGM and peanutman) or reason to believe the innocence of (AlmasterGM and peanutman) for everyone else but him, and archaebob looked like a clear scumbuddy, especially with the recent stuff MordyS had posted against him. I thought we had the game in the bag and when I thought I saw archaebob give up I was eager to get lynching.

[Sanjay]

Dude. No lynching.

Assuming a standard three scum group, we have 6 town, 2 scum alive. We have one mislynch before we are in MYLO. From that point on, we have to lynch correctly and will likely no-kill anyway to get the mafia to eliminate one suspect, sending us to LYLO.

If we no lynch, following a nightkill we will have 5 town, 2 scum alive. We have one mislynch before we are in LYLO. From that point on, we have to lynch correctly.

If the mafia kills either peanutman or Gamma, awesome. The Gamma/peanut decision just became way easier.

If the mafia doesn't kill peanutman or Gamma, either we get another result from peanutman (whether it is real or fake, this is good for the town) or the mafia has to resort to other shenanigans that might occupy their power roles.

It seems to me like the potential benefits of no lynching outweigh the potential risk(s).

The only risk, as I see it, is that there is a serial killer who hasn't surfaced yet, there are two nightkills, and we get sent into MYLO tomorrow. It seems unlikely to me that a serial killer would wait until night three to start killing, so I think this is only a remote possibility.

Vote: No Lynch

[Sanjay]

You are just making me want to no lynch more, peanutman.

[Sanjay]

I had not considered the downside of letting the mafia discuss strategy that pertains to this specific situation, but that does not change my mind.

If Gammagooey is scum, he's plenty smart enough to figure out strategy all by himself.

[Sanjay]

And I'm saying that keeping our cop or our roleblocker alive an extra day is worth letting the mafia chat it up.

We have an even number of players. It is unlikely we are going to stop a nightkill to buy us an extra lynch. Therefore, it is likely we are going to be no lynching eventually.

This is the best time.

[Sanjay]

Ugh, you guys.

Unvote

My plan isn't going to work if you all declare how easy the Gammagooey-Peanutman decision is, especially if you all pick the same side.

I'm sure we're all fine scumhunters and everything, but I really wanted to get a second investigation in. If we lynch Gammagooey today and he flips scum, there is just no way Peanutman survives the night. If we make it quite clear that we are definitely going with Gammagooey, there's no reason for the mafia not to roleblock peanutman, and there's no reason for the mafia not to kill peanutman.

Here's what I think, as far as setup speculation goes:

The existence of a Godfather doesn't 100% confirm the existence of a cop, but it implies it. I suppose it is slightly bastardly to put a Godfather in a game without a cop, but I think it is much less bastardly than Peanutman is implying.

The existence of a doctor doesn't 100% the non-existence of a town-aligned roleblocker, but it implies it. Town-aligned roleblocker in a normal game seems kind of terrible and if we are doing setup speculation, I'm quite skeptical it is in the game.

I think by far the most likely scenario is peanutman-town, Gammagooey-scum.

[Sanjay]

Personally I think all this "let's find the scumbuddy today" stuff is a little silly. While generally it is quite useful to let everyone know who you suspect and who you don't, I feel like all we are doing hunting for the scumbuddy today is informing the nightkill.

Gonna wait for peanutman to give the go ahead to end the day though.

But everyone else, seriously consider holding back on your scumhunting until tomorrow. I think it is the right thing to do.

[Sanjay]

We probably should wait for PhaerieM's go ahead too, since yesterday we sort of... didn't.

[Sanjay]

This is my best explanation. I think it's the right one:

I think archaebob is a really swell person and I want to be best buddies with him and archaebob knows this.

archae firmly believed 1) I am scum 2) I as lying about misreading him and 3) I was lying about misreading him only because I wanted him not to be angry at me.

[Sanjay]

PhaerieM, what do you want to see happen before we end the day?

[Sanjay]

Sorry, PhaerieM, I missed your hammer vote.

I'm a little relieved that peanutman was killed. While I thought the most likely scenario was that peanutman was the cop, I was a little wary of him just because I was really surprised he got a result.

I'm also a little heartbroken about Gamma. I kind of hoped he was telling the truth about being the roleblocker. Oh well.

Did I vote for archaebob with the thought that MordyS was town?

Technically, yes.

I thought foilist13 was a good scum candidate and when I thought about foilist13 being scum I remembered how much effort archaebob had put into pushing a foilist13-Sanjay scum connection, especially when foilist13 was in trouble. archaebob scum fit in really well into that, especially with the stuff MordyS found. I kind of had in my head that the scum were definitely foilist13 and archaebob, the town was groovin', and there was no way to go wrong.

So in that sense, yes.

I also had a town read on MordyS. Granted, I think I've kind of broadcasted that I am swayed by "too scummy to be scum" shenanigans so I probably can't use them quite as well, but what is up with his ridiculous foilist13 vote day 2. It seemed so townish to me.

I still have a town read on MordyS. Right after archaebob flipped I think I did a lot of questioning in my head of that town read, and for a bit of time night 2 he was high on my suspect list, but I don't know anymore. I think he's town.

Also, I don't think archaebob flipping town really changed how I feel about foilist13.

I'm especially interested in how he was so sure that archaebob was wrongfully lynched he was going to quit all his games to go after the people who wrongfully lynched him.

[Sanjay]

Vote: foilist13

[Sanjay]

What part of your MordyS case rested on me being scum?

[Sanjay]

Here's what I was thinking behind my NL strategy:

It was weird that peanutman got an investigation through. How could this have happened? These were the possibilities that ran through my mind:

1) The mafia had no power role that could interfere with a cop. While less likely because that's just a wee bit broken, it could have happened.

2) The mafia had a roleblocker but didn't use it because they didn't think peanutman would be investigating them and wanted people to think "huh, weird that peanutman didn't get roleblocked".

3) The mafia had some other power role that, rather than give peanutman no results, could give him bad ones. This one seemed less likely since Gamma's claim was pretty sketchy, but in the back of my mind I was scared of peanutman-Gamma being town-town and us using both our mislynches on that.

4) peanutman was scum. While less likely, I could see it.

I figured the NL strategy was win-win with very little downside (I think peanutman was overly concerned with the threat of the mafia talking overnight). If peanutman was left alive and the mafia had a roleblocker, they would undoubtedly use it, and we would learn there was a mafia roleblocker. If peanutman was left alive and got an investigation through, we would be better equipped to evaluate whether or not it was a good one. If peanutman was killed, no big deal. If the weird happened and the matchup was town-town, we'd only be using one mislynch on it, not two. Nice.

Also, peanutman had a much better chance of surviving the night with Gammagooey alive as long as the mafia had a chance of winning peanutman vs. Gammagooey. I

loved

the idea of making the mafia try to decide whether to kill peanutman without knowing how the town stood on the guilty investigation.

[Sanjay]

True, but that doesn't really count. It doesn't stop an outed cop from having continual doc protects and the scum being unable to stop him from investigating everyone until they can find the doctor.

[Sanjay]

Oh guys I just realized something about Gammagooey!

How come he knew AlmasterGM had a Pikachu avatar before AlmasterGM even posted? It seems to me like he looked at past games of the other players in this game, which is an extremely sketchy move as town when you are only on page one. NOBODY does that. I think it's more likely that as scum he was scoping out his victims so he could avoid their scumhunting techniques.

If only someone had pointed that out day one, we could have lynched him two days ago.

[Sanjay]

Also, MVP goes to archaebob:

Exhibit A
Exhibit B

[Sanjay]

It's not a great scumtell, but I still contend that the case made sense. While it might be nice if town read-up on everyone before the game started, the fact is they don't. I definitely see what AlmasterGM was getting at here.

Though if one looks at the aftermath on page 2 and 3 and so, who looks scummier because of it, knowing Gamma is scum?

cruelty definitely.
MordyS maybe.
foilist13 looks a little townier.