Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[foilist13]

Hello hello.

What Almaster says about MordyS actually holds water. It makes sense, to me at least, for a town player to research a player they're suspicious of, but to go and look up everyone or even random people at the very beginning?

Vote:MordyS

Hello Archaebob and Muffin

[foilist13]

How is this possibly a scumtell? Seriously, please explain to me how scum is more likely to do this than town.

A scum player is in the business of trying to "prove" that other players are the scum. With this in mind, it would make sense for a dedicated scum player to research the other players in order to find differences in playing styles, or other "tells" that they can come up with in order to point fingers at town players.

@f13: Would you agree that it makes sense for a new player to read through some games before jumping into a game of his or her own?

It does, but I personally didn't. In answer to your general question, a friend explained the game to me and I just jumped right in.

What was the purpose of this question though? Are you suggesting that he might have encountered Almaster before? Maybe, but that is extremely unlikely, especially if he is a relatively new player.

Taking all this into account though, I can't prove or deduce that MordyS was looking up other players. I found it moderately scummy after Almaster pointed it out, but I concede the point as I can't prove it.

@ Chinaman - why aren't you voting for Muffin or AGM?

Why are you pressuring him for a vote?

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - Your one word/one line posts aren't helpful. You're poking at other players seemingly at random, which I suppose is your idea of scumhunting, but thus far I have posted more content than you have.

So rather than making statements about me, respond to my arguments.

@Chinaman - FoS'ing is the coward's way of voting. The only reason to do that is if you already have a vote on someone else. Otherwise you've served no purpose by doing it.

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - That whole post was weak.

1) The line you posted "...?" is not a response. Why don't you try again?

2) You were pressuring him to vote and I was suggesting you not do that.

3) I didn't suggest that he vote now, I stated my opinion that it is weak to FoS without already have voted. If he wants to do

that

then he ought to vote. Conditional statement, not a contradiction.

4) MordyS vs Gmmagooey, name confusion. My mistake.

[foilist13]

Oh,

@Cruelty - the vast majority of people I play with are those whom I've never seen before. Its not impossible, just unlikely, especially considering Almaster did not know him.

[foilist13]

Belligerence? I'll leave it at "you're one to talk."

My vote is still on Gammagooey because I have not seen fit to move it to someone else. Why did yours stay on Muffin for so long?

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - Who are you asking? The first one is mine directed at Cruelty, the second is from Gammagooey directed at Almaster, and I don't know off the top of my head who the third was directed at, but I don't think it was me.

[foilist13]

I don't think anyone else is on right now.

Did you miss the part where I said I couldn't prove or deduce that he was researching? It cannot be disproved either, and despite the fact that it is far from conclusive evidence, it is something to have somewhere in mind.

[foilist13]

The first time I got the name wrong I thought that was the name, pretty simple. In the second post I used the name I put in the first post. I had it in my mind that MordyS was the one who claimed to have seen the pikachu avatar, not Gammagooey. Again, my mistake.

Why don't you reiterate your point for me, you seem to have lost me.

[foilist13]

Ha! Kirby? Kirby is the most pathetic choice of character you could make! Gee, I dunno know who I'll choose.... Hey! This one has a lame version of all of them!

Meta Knight's where it's at.

[foilist13]

Is anyone else irritated by responses such as

"...?"

or

?

[foilist13]

There are a few people who are lurking here, but Muffin has caught my attention.

This is from newbie 846, day 1; he was town.

This seems to me like BlueRaven is trying to soft-claim Town, i.e. being ignorant about other peoples' alignments.

Based on BR's experience I don't think this can be chalked up as some sort of newbie slip-up.

This is on the first page, and immediately he looks at the other players and posts relevant information.

The pastry goes on in a similar manner to how he is playing here, except his questions are all game relevant, and clever. He points out significant things in almost every post.

So... you didn't think I was suspicious, and your accusation of my scumminess was sarcastic and silly, but you still voted for me (which makes your 3rd vote in less than a page of posts, I might add).

I poked holes in your argument because I took it seriously, since there was a vote appended to it.

If it wasn't serious, why the vote?

Another example:

post 49, 51, and others.

Now in this game:

Just because you and I butted heads a lot in our previous game... I don't really know if we're supposed to talk about it because it's technically still in progress despite the fact that you, foilist and myself are all dead.

Nothing against Foilist, and not a buddying attempt on you, but he really only replaced in at the end of the day and we didn't interact much before I was killed (by sanjay it seems).

Simple post, still in the RVS, but no content, not that much would be expected.

Why does bob's post annoy you so much? What would you prefer he have done/said?

Similar tone and style to his posts in 846, but this question is not actually relevant.

I'm inclined to agree with Spyrex and Mordy, actually.

As was pointed out earlier, this is pretty much as on the fence as one can be.

Then in posts 85 and 86 he literally says nothing.

It's absolutely ridiculous. When I signed up on the site and got into my first newbie game I went and read some games too.

Here he ignores the actual argument.

I would actually venture to say the biggest scumtell so far comes from Muffin who is "inclined to agree" nice and early so if the BW stays strong toward end of deadline, he can say "I said I agreed on p2!". It's an agreement without a vote, HoS, or FoS.

I said only "I'm inclined to agree" because I don't think Alamaster's behaviour has been ultra super omg scummy. I think his argument is ridiculous, but having a ridiculous argument does not a scum make.

And secondly... do you honestly think in a 12-player game, that a silly bandwagon from page 2 is going to stay nice and strong through to the end? I highly doubt it. If this game-day ends in fewer than 15 pages I will be greatly surprised.

Then again maybe you'd like this bandwagon to push through to a lynch real quick? Eager to test out your night kill?

What you got to say about that Pastry-boy? If you're inclined to agree, where's your bolded statement of where you stand? FoS: Muffin (<----There's mine )

My bolded statement aka my vote is currently on archaebob for a random vote. I will unvote since we're past that now.

I don't FoS because fossing is arbitrary and has no meaning. If you want to know what my opinions are though, I think that you're trying to be real cautious, saying things like "this game is moving nicely" and how you don't think a pressure vote is needed. You lambast me for not taking a stance yet all you can put up is a measly fos that has zero impact on the game? We call that hypocrisy where I come from and in my experience the only players who need to create or rely on double standards are scum.

I'm the kind of player who always likes everyone to be voting for someone, because it provides a clear and readable trail of whom each player's prime suspicions (real or fabricated) rest on. No going through and trying to decide which carries more weight: the toenail of suscpicion or the hair follicle of suspicion?

Earlier on you admit to not reading the thread carefully (scumtell) and now the double standards/hypocrisy.

I find this more compelling than Alamaster's misguided thoughts as to the behaviour of "all townies" and the responses thereto.

vote: chinaman

Ok after the first quote he starts by arguing semantics, then simply says a bandwagon now won't hold to the end of the day, and makes a non-serious poke at Chinaman. Nice and meaty looking, but no content worth noting.

Then he makes a long chunky couple of paragraphs about how Fos'ing is useless. Again, he has posted nothing of relevance.

Finally, at the end of this "big" post, he votes for Chinaman based on the fact that Chinaman didn't read the thread very carefully. Yes that is a scumtell, but this early in the game can be excusable. I'm not defending Chinaman here, but this doesn't strike me as damning evidence.

Comment on what, specifically? The exchange between you and foilist? Please clarify or link/quote/whatever.

I agree that foilist appears to be reading/replying selectively and the fact that he is continuing is raising my eyebrows, to say the least.

I also agree though, that your approach has been less than diplomatic.

Again, nothing of relevance. A bit of a stab at me, and a comment about Archaebob's play style.

His next two posts are not even pretending to be game relevant.

No, I don't think you've been particularly abrasive or undiplomatic. Certainly more cooperative than 846, but then again I have a high threshold for that sort of thing.

Yet again, nothing.

There's another example of this from Muffin (I'll quote Chinaman, who first noted this in post 49):

I would actually venture to say the biggest scumtell so far comes from Muffin who is "inclined to agree" nice and early so if the BW stays strong toward end of deadline, he can say "I said I agreed on p2!". It's an agreement without a vote, HoS, or FoS.

So what does this mean? I don't think this early in the game either of these tells mean that the players are definitively scummy, but it does bother me that they've decided to "lay low." Muffin somewhat mediates this in post 89 (though the OMGUS vote is ridiculous). He's otherwise struck me as participating, though I plan to keep an eye on him in case he tries to buddy/hedge in other places.

Haha... yeah in hindsight it does look rather like an omgus vote. I look at it this way though:

He says I'm laying low and trying not to stick my neck out too far, but only throws a FoS down. No matter what you or I or chinaman or anyone else says or would like to believe, fossing someone doesn't actually do anything. It doesn't matter what anyone says because only votes are counted.

So when he criticizes me for not taking a stance and purposefully doesn't take one on his own, how can that be anything other than hypocrisy?

The exact same argument he applies to me can be applied to him. "See? I said I agreed when I fossed!". It's an agreement without a vote.

This is another post that looks nice and meaty, but in fact says next to nothing. He basically says he was turning Chinaman's non-existent logic on himself and voting for him to make a point. Ok fine, more power to Muffin.

Then in his next point he reiterates all of the things he said in his last few posts for Chinaman.

I'm going to leave out the first part of this next post because it is irrelevant.

Earlier on you admit to not reading the thread carefully (scumtell) and now the double standards/hypocrisy.

Misrepresent much? Here's an HoS: Muffin for ya. Oh, and guess what, I don't have to play by your rules now do I? I'll vote when I'm good and ready to and not a moment too soon. Opinions are like assholes remember?.... I think an FoS and the like are just as readable as a vote. To say they aren't is just your opinion, but I will build a case on someone FoS'ing someone else just a quick as if they voted.

Why on earth would I respond to this? First of all you didn't ask me anything. Second of all it can be summed up as "yeah? well I'm playing my way so there!"

What sort of response were you hoping for, exactly?

Here he somewhat justifiably says there is no reason to answer Chinaman. Fair enough.

No matter what you or I or chinaman or anyone else says or would like to believe, fossing someone doesn't actually do anything. It doesn't matter what anyone says because only votes are counted.

This isn't precisely true. Trying to create a good read here has nothing to do with the actual effects of an FoS, only with the perceived effects of an FoS. Which is to say: If Chinaman believes an FoS is more potent than doing nothing at all, he isn't a hypocrite if he makes an FoS but lays into you for doing nothing. If Chinaman, however, agreed that an FoS did nothing, then you'd in fact have a case against him. (Ie: My personal opinions on FoS's, Votes, etc, mean nothing here. All that is important in verifying Chinaman's hypocrisy is whether he is actually at odds with his own beliefs. And as far as I can tell, he is not.)

..................... well I suppose I see your point. But I still think fossing is retarded. Since it has no effect, it ultimately has no purpose.

Either way, the fact remains that Chinaman has decided his way is the only way, since he thinks I'm scummy for not fossing or using some other kind of bolded statement. Then he gets on my case saying "I don't have to play by your rules, do I?"

So... I have to play by his rules (since not fossing makes me scummy) but he doesn't have to play by mine? Fuck that. That's still hypocrisy right there.

Here he gives up his point, but then makes the same one about something infinitely more minor. Chinaman is not playing particularly intelligently, but Muffin isn't playing at all.

In posts 117, 118, and 121 he says nothing of any relevance. He reiterates himself to Chinaman, and Lo and behold! He asks for content from other players!!

Unvote, Vote:Muffin

@MordyS - I believe I answered your question in my response to Archaebob, if not ask again and I'll answer.

Fixed

[foilist13]

That was the most recent album from Muse, Super Massive Wall Post.

Enjoy

[foilist13]

I didn't remove my vote from you, because it is my habit to leave my vote where it is unless I plan to change it. Just taking it off is not something I normally do. I'm sorry if that bothered you.

I got caught up, as did archaebob, on the name typo. It was a minor thing (we've all made reading mistakes), but it did indicate, especially coming in the middle of a discussion, that he wasn't doing due diligence to his reading. But on reread, what I noticed more was, "I found it moderately scummy after Almaster pointed it out, but I concede the point as I can't prove it." This is the kind of sneaky, scum-language that drives me nuts where he hedges on either side.

There's another example of this from Muffin (I'll quote Chinaman, who first noted this in post 49):

I'm not sure how to answer the language part, as there is no way to defend against "you sound scummy to me," so I'll have to let that one go.

As for the due diligence in reading, once I had a name in my head I read all the posts after that with it in mind. You are simply who I believed we were talking about, and I responded to things as they came. That was compounded when you made post 61 saying that you would probably look up players later in the game. It didn't occur to me that it wasn't you we were talking about, and that seemed a logical thing for a person in that position to say.

Isn't it clear that if you can't prove or disprove this, then it's a null tell? Not to mention that even if we could prove that he researched EVERY SINGLE player before starting play: I think that could easily be Townie play! So I don't know what foilist needs to keep in mind.

That could be a Townie play, but I find it far less likely than a scum player looking for things he can point fingers at. if you disagree with me on that point then there is nothing I can do.

As for being able to prove or disprove something, that doesn't make it a null tell, that only makes it inconclusive evidence. Maybe I'm confused in my terminology and those are the same thing, if so my bad. I thought it was a scummy move, but I can't prove that he did it, only that there was evidence he may have. That early in the game, that was sufficient to earn my vote.

I hope this answers your questions.

[foilist13]

I felt no pressure to change my vote whatsoever. Neither you or anyone else is in any immediate danger of being lynched, so I'll take my time.

Why did I jump on that argument? It was my first post, and that was what I had just read, and it struck me as scummy.

It makes more sense for a mafia player to research the other players beforehand, because it gives him an idea of their playing styles, and he can look for things to point fingers at them with. That makes perfect sense to me, and I can't fathom why it wouldn't to you.

It is less likely for a town player to research the other players first because there are more people, and there is no immediate benefit to doing so.

[foilist13]

It is bothering me that no one is responding to my post on Muffin. What, are one of you his scum partner trying to take attention away from your scumbuddy?

[foilist13]

@Anyone who is still unhappy about me leaving my vote on MordyS - I'll go in depth into what I was thinking so that you can stop asking me about this.

After you pointed out my mistake,

1) I usually find someone to vote for before I stop voting for someone else.

2) You were not in any danger of being lynched

3) You had started to make a case against me, so at that point my vote essentially became a OMGUS vote while I tried to defend myself. Then I built my case against muffin and changed my vote accordingly.

@MordyS - I spent a lot of time on that Muffin post, and it irritates me that it has quite literally been ignored. As far as pressuring you to respond that is exactly what I was doing, although in a half-hearted way. Obviously not everyone can be scum, that comment was loosely directed at the two people who were on at the time.

[foilist13]

An FoS is a formal declaration of suspicion against another player. FoSing someone for no reason can be as comparably suspicious as voting them for no reason, and can also illicit a similar sort of reaction from the attacked player. They serve their purpose, and I think you are wasting the town's time with this back and forth argument over nothing with chinaman.

interesting that you would say FoS'ing without reason is potentially very suspicious when that is exactly what you did earlier.

[foilist13]

@MordyS - What are you talking about? Can you post one question for me that I haven't answered yet?

@Archaebob - No one has claimed to know why you FoS'ed.

[foilist13]

MordyS - It didn't occur to me. I wasn't thinking about where my vote was, and when it was pointed out to me it turned into an OMGUS vote against you since you were attacking me.

I don't have to justify every vote I make past a certain point. The original vote was barely out of the RVS and based on extremely limited evidence. When you pointed out my mistake it was just an "oh" moment, but I wasn't paying attention to that at the time.

There is not a further answer to be given. There were no more than two votes on anyone at the time, and mine was inconsequential. I don't take my vote very seriously that early in the game.

If you find that objectionable then we have reached an impasse and you will try and lynch be based on my lack of respect for the significance of my vote when there is no danger of lynching.

[foilist13]

lexprod
foilist13
AlmasterGM - While his argument stood out to me at the beginning, he has been all but completely useless since then. He is either actively lurking or doesn't care.

Muffin - I find him scummy based on the differences between his playing here and his playing in 846. He is my top suspect.

MordyS - While it annoys me that I'm the one he's after, I find nothing illegitimate or scummy about his arguments.

Gammagooey - Hasn't been very useful at all, and my misvote against him in the beginning represents my feelings of minor scumminess.

afatchic - Only a few posts, not much to get a read on.

Chinaman - Doesn't seem very logical or useful, but he isn't doing anything useful as scum either. I'm inclined to think he's town.

cruelty - I get a scum vibe here. He only jumps in every so often to posts arguments that agree with the general feeling at the moment.

peanutman - Similar to cruelty, except his arguments don't follow the general trend which gives me more of a town vibe.

archaebob - His playing is similar to what it was in 846, except there is less content in general, and less risk taking. Whether or not that means he's scum I don't know.

SpyreX - Posts once in a blue moon. No read on him whatsoever.

[foilist13]

A vibe is significantly less than a clearly formed opinion, however I feel like they followed somewhat discernible patterns where as afatchic has not.

Why don't you list your opinions archaebob?

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - Can you please explain your opinions? As you can clearly see my explanation yielded some information that you can look at. Had I just posted a list like yours no one would have said anything, or if they did it would be much more limited.

Now why don't you post a list of

opinions.

I.e. explanations of why you feel the way you do about those players.

For afatchic and peanutman, they didn't give me different vibes, one gave me a town vibe, and the other gave me

no

vibe. That doesn't mean scum, that means I haven't identified any kind of a pattern however limited from afatchic. From Peanut, his posts seem very infrequent, but when he makes them they seem pro-town

a little bit.

That doesn't mean I have anything conclusive, it means its an opinion. Vibes are by definition limited opinions only based on general feeling. I haven't made any strong statements about either of them.

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - So you're voting for me because other people haven't posted enough? Somehow my content has lead you to suspect me, and lack of content has lead you to ignore other players.

And you still have not posted a list of opinions by saying more people need to post, yet you asked for the same thing from me. Thats blatant hypocrisy.

You need to get your arguments straight and post them in a clear case, as obviously there are several people who are confused.

[foilist13]

I think thats irrelevant. The vast majority of your posts are simple questions without content, and most of the time you're just asking other people for content.

Stop being a hypocrite and post your opinions. Amount of content needed to form opinions is irrespective of the situation.

[foilist13]

Archaebob, the attention is on you now.

unvote, Vote:Archaebob

until he posts something of relevance, and then depending on his answers.

If we are not discussing this, what exactly have you decided the discussion will be about?

[foilist13]

Mind answering a question for once?

[foilist13]

Have you noticed that you have as many votes on you as I do on me? Albeit the less reputable players, yet you are ignoring the possibility that you may be lynched.

You are playing from a perspective of invulnerability and assuming that no one will focus on you,

yet you are posting nothing.

For some reason you seem to think no one is going to pick up on that, now answer the damn question.

You accuse people left and right of refusing to answer questions, and now you are doing it yourself. You are a hypocrite, and thinking no one will call you on it is foolish.

[foilist13]

@SpyreX - Of course I'm looking for a way out. I don't think I should be lynched. Do you imagine that it's pro-town to sit down and let yourself be lynched as soon as there is a case on you?

@Archaebob - Same question

[foilist13]

I don't have a great defense here, nor did I there. I'm not sure how to respond other than how I already have.

[foilist13]

fair enough, I will do that, but right now I too need to go to bed.

[foilist13]

Since Archaebob still hasn't posted a list of opinions I'm going to assume my pressure vote on him has failed, and obviously I've learning my lesson about voting, so

Unvote, Vote:Muffin

Also Archaebob had made it up to 4 votes, and I'm not interested in lynching him, at least not yet.

@Almaster - Your case was pretty weak. I don't have a lot to add on top of MordyS and Gammagooey, but I can send you to some meta where Archaebob is scum, and another where he is town. In both of these he interspersed content posts with one liners in a very similar manner to which he is doing now, except here there is less content than there normally is.

Oh and defending another player is not necessarily scummy. We're trying to find the scum and avoid lynching town, so if we see someone we think is town be accused of scum it would be logical to defend them if you think the argument is faulty. It is not the defense itself, but the quality of defense. You have to distinguish between legitimate town defense and scum defense.

Scummy defense is not any more of less scummy than a scummy attack.

[foilist13]

unfortunately Archaebob's next set of posts is based on the non-posters posting, so we may have to wait a while, and I'm not interested in seeing this thread die in the mean time.

I'll wait for a little bit Archaebob, but if none of the people you're waiting for have posted by tomorrow, I'm going to jump back in with all my content and make a couple of cases.

[foilist13]

@SpyreX - What are you trying to accomplish by saying people are confirmed town? Obviously you don't actually know, or do you?

Either you're just not thinking about it at all, which I find hard to believe, or you're trying to buddy up to who you find the more dangerous players.

If you're not scum, then confirming people as town only makes it more likely that they will be noght killed. This is the essence of cruelty's aversion to scumlists.

[foilist13]

Interesting. Is everyone who is voting Muffin actually willing to lynch him if he doesn't start posting, or do you plan to wait for a replacement?

[foilist13]

Cruelty conveniently left the game for four days, but I'm going to respond to him anyway.

I'm actually not necessarily deliberately playing my cards close to the chest, I'm having a hard time figuring out who I actually think is scum. If you looked at my meta you'll see I tend to flounder around day one and zero in day two. That said, I resent being asked for constant opinions because they will come.

I just don't want to show my entire hand - it's related to my stance on scumlists. If I find someone suspicious to a point whereby I think everyone should look at them, then I'll post.

I've already stated I'm not going to give away my hand just because you asked me to. This isn't anti-town, it's quite simply the fact that the more information the scum have the easier their NKs (and their pushes for mislynches) become.

Mk, the second two posts were earlier, and am I alone in thinking that they implied he had a hand to play? That being said, how is it pro-town not to post your information? Its not like there are any secrets here that you know and we don't. We're all seeing the same content, so if you have some interpretation, or something we haven't thought of, please either post it, or explain why you aren't going to beyond "you can't make me."

Also, wouldn't it have been prudent to go back, read the thread, and come up with some sort of content right before you disappear for several days? Or were you trying to just get through without posting so that we can all go concentrate on other people while you're gone?

[foilist13]

Oh,

Unvote

I could go through and analyze Muffin's defense, but we would reach an impasse pretty much immediately. He justified all his comments, but not very much to my satisfaction. The fact remains that he has posted little content, and just little in general, but I don't have anywhere else to go with that, so I'm taking my vote off him.

For those on the Archaebob wagon, can we see some reasons you feel he is scum other than playstyle? Pointing out some relevant contradictions or scumslips would be nice.

I'll

vote Chinaman

for now to get some posts out of him, but I don't have strong suspicions in that area.

[foilist13]

Unvote

Welcome Sanjay.

I'm going to wait for Almaster to respond to the cases on other players, and for Archaebob to defend himself before I put my vote somewhere else, at least seriously. I may pressure vote. Actually, you know what,

vote: afatchic

@AlmasterGm - Set aside defending yourself, and your indignation at being ordered around by Archaebob for a moment. Can you tell us who you think is scum based on something other than playstyles? So far I do not buy your argument against Archaebob, since it seems to be based on meta and you not liking him. Show us some scum tells, show us some contradictions. Give us something to justify the wagon on him.

[foilist13]

@Cruelty - For the love of god man, post

something

you haven't said already about the other players.

What are your views on Peanutman and AlmasterGm? How bout afatchic or myself? Instead of trying to push an Archaebob wagon, why don't you tell us why you don't suspect the other players, or at least not as much?

[foilist13]

Unvote, Vote:AlmasterGM

Now Archaebob's responded, now there is no reason for me to keep my vote off of you.

No. This is Day 1. There was no Night 0. With the exception of scum, nobody in this game knows more than anyone else. Given that fact, there is absolutely no reason we should be blindly accepting these promises of future information. I am not going to divert my attention onto other cases until archebob responds to mine. Once he responds, I'll think about it. The end. Why you continually endorse his evasive behavior is completely beyond me.

That last couple of sentences pretty much finishes it in my mind. After he responds you'll think about it? Really?

[foilist13]

I thought I had already answered all the questions about why I left my vote on MordyS, but the truth is obviously I didn't have a great reason and I couldn't be bothered at the time. The reasons I posted occurred me after the fact, but my mind was not on my vote, yes even after it was pointed out to me.

To Archaebob's post, your whole case is resting on my flipping scum, so I am wondering why you find it more worthwhile to lynch Peanutman when you seem convinced that I am scum. Also you've demonstrated that you find Almaster at least as scummy as the rest of us do, so don't you think it would be more productive to lunch either him or me since your cases against us are not contingent on the presumed alignments of another player?

[foilist13]

Ok,

@Archaebob - As far as Peanut's giving me the benefit of the doubt, I posted arguments however poorly constructed to back up what I was saying. You chose not to discuss the content of your posts, rather only said that you were not worried about being lynched. It is not just about being lynched or not though. We need as much info about you as anyone else, and I think the trend you pointed out illustrates that. Peanut was trying to understand my logic, because he perceived that I had some kind of logic to support my posts. He seemed to perceive that you were not interested in posting a defense based on logic rather than position.

Now I am not defending Peanut here. Obviously I am acutely conscious of the accusation against him for defending me, and I don't wish to side myself with him and lead the town in to thinking that I or we are scum. I felt I needed to make that clear, since someone would inevitably jump on it. You have asked me to respond on your case and now I have, though I am still very aware of the potential wagon and suspicions on me.

[foilist13]

The thread seems to be dying.

Archaebob, why don't you post this "MOAR" now, since no one else seems to have anything to say.

[foilist13]

Did I come off as pushy?

[foilist13]

@Sanjay - No. I said I'd go more into depth, but when I went to make the post I realized that I really didn't have much of anything to post other than that I really wasn't thinking about it and the reasons I already posted still held true as weak as they are.

[foilist13]

Almaster, if my vote wasn't already on you I'd vote you again. That last comment was ridiculous. Go get a replacement if you don't want to play.

[foilist13]

@Sanjay - You quoted mee. Perhaps you should read my posts before you ask questions about them.

@SpyreX - Can you tell us who your suspects are in order? I assume your top one is Almaster based on your vote, but who else has raised your suspicions?

[foilist13]

@Mod - The vote count is incorrect. Archaebob unvoted

[foilist13]

Can you please explain what specifically about those last couple of sentences you find suspicious? I don't think I quite understand your point.

No. This is Day 1. There was no Night 0. With the exception of scum, nobody in this game knows more than anyone else. Given that fact, there is absolutely no reason we should be blindly accepting these promises of future information. I am not going to divert my attention onto other cases until archebob responds to mine.

Once he responds, I'll think about it. The end.

Why you continually endorse his evasive behavior is completely beyond me.

The bolded sentences are the ones I was referring to. He is taking a distinctly self righteous and anti-town attitude here, and I am quickly running out of reasons to want to keep him here. I think he is scum, but even if he isn't, he certainly is not helpful, which makes him a better choice than any other lynch candidates in my mind.

[foilist13]

Once he responds, I'll think about it. The end.

since that post.

Sure. You can say all you want that I haven't done anything pro-town, but I also haven't done anything anti-town

since this post.

This game is too complicated. I might go back and re-read, but this thread is more muddled than the original text of Beowulf, so I'm just going to wait for a wagon to formulate and then decide whether I like it or not.

or this one.

[foilist13]

@Almaster - I think it would be a good time to point out that you claiming some sort of power role won't influence my opinion at all unless it is accompanied by some sort of scum hunting as Archaebob has suggested.

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - If Almaster pulls his act together and we don't decide to lynch him, who would be your next suspect?

Also, I don't think I've seen you comment on MordyS or Gammagooey recently. So in keeping with your motto of keeping an eye on all of the players, what are your takes on them?

[foilist13]

Being self righteous by itself is not necessarily anti-town, but refusing to cooperate is, and self righteousness fuels that.

You asked "since when" so the logical response is "Since then," but that doesn't necessarily mean that he wasn't like that before those posts, those are just the most concrete and recent examples. That attitude is the one I've been generally getting from him the whole game, and it isn't helpful.

As far as listing my next few suspects, no. I'm going to go get clearer reads on them before I list them with reasons, as that would just indicate how they should defend themselves before I've made a good case. That aside, I think that Almaster is scum, and I'm wanting to lynch him when the day is done. There are a couple other people I'm suspicious of, but again, I'd rather not post them yet.

[foilist13]

Being self righteous by itself is not necessarily anti-town, but refusing to cooperate is, and self righteousness fuels that.

I haven't decided yet. I also never said that AGM is my current top pick for scum.

I didn't say he was, I asked who would you want to lynch in lieu of him, seeing as right now he seems to be the most likely lynch candidate.

[foilist13]

Fine, but I don't have strong cases on any of them.

1) Almaster (obviously)

2) Cruelty - He doesn't seem to be interested in cooperating with the town.

3) Peanutman - Your case was convincing enough, but part of it hinged on me being scum which weakened it significantly in my eyes.

4) Papa Zito - Because he hasn't posted

ANYTHING.

Lexprod was still in at the last vote count, and I don't see any posts from his replacement at all since then.

[foilist13]

Most of my case on muffin was based on him lurking, and the fact that he got replaced significantly deflates it.

Much of your case against Peanut could just as easily be him trying to buddy up to other players, but further than that I found his defense poor and am inclined to think he is scummier than any of the players higher on my list (Keep in mind that really isn't all that scummy at all)

[foilist13]

Why SpyreX?

[foilist13]

Since I seem to be the second suspect after Almaster, since his wagon is still larger, are there any questions people would like to direct at me? I saw one, but it isn't a very insightful question.

I'm interested in how you've (foilist) arrived at the conclusion I'm not cooperating with town. My playstyle is different to most of you I guess; I don't really like to throw around suspicions/votes/FoS's unless I feel I have a genuine point to make (as I've constantly and consistently stated) but that aside, what exactly is making me un-cooperative?

Your general attitude has been to delay content indefinitely and when directly questioned say you want to play your cards close to the chest. This does not sit well at all with me, and yes, is uncooperative with the town.

This is something else that jumped out at me. In these quotes, Archaebob makes statements not about the town's attitude, but about the players' actual beliefs. This is

very

scummy to me as I find little explanation for it other than to manipulate the town, or at least the player he was talking to at the time into not investigating him seriously. Granted it could be something else, but I still want to draw attention to it.

It is a very small minority of the players in this game that think my FoS of you was without reason.

No one ever actually said this, or even indicated it so far as I can tell.

and use my current town creds to totally de-legitimize your scumhunting.

Again, I didn't see anyone actually declare him town, except for maybe SpyreX, but I think that was later (correct me if I'm wrong).

Oh that's right. I'm not aligned with you. My bad.

Obviously he intended this to be obvious, but it falls in with the pattern none the less.

A second reason is, if I can be totally truthful, I'm not exactly confident about my prospects of surviving the night.

This is a

huge

soft claim. Right here he is making himself out to be the best scum target, we can assume, because he is the most effective and pro-town player. Does anyone else take issue with this?

Therefore, as I consider my actions to be beneficial to my win condition at this moment, I have little reason to not continue as I have been.

Here's another town soft claim.

yet you are willing to put me up to L-3 because of something which I think should be easy to reconcile with an aggrresive town personality.

This one is not anything like concrete either, but again it looks like Archaebob is trying to strongly associate himself with town. Maybe that is forgivable, but it seems a bit more than necessary to me.

Don't let your personal issues with me prevent you from making a good town move.

Here he does acknowledge that at least one player has taken issue with him, but in context I think that that was rather unavoidable. The good town move part is a little unsettling to me. Yes i suppose it would be a good town move to pressure lurkers, but again I can't help thinking that he is trying to associate himself with the "good town" part of it.

A few players on here DO think I'm pretty well-confirmed town

And this is the biggest one right here. No one said this. Ever.

I noticed the last one and it didn't sit well with me, so I went back to see if there were more. I was more than a little surprised at how many I found, and even more than that, that Archaebob is the only one doing it. Others may say something like that once of twice, but

8

times? That seems a little much.


On an unrelated note,

@Everyone - The idea that me Almaster and Peanut are a scum team doesn't hold up. You'll notice that at one point we were all on the Archaebob wagon, even though my part in it was an OMGUS vote. Despite the fact that its WIFOM, I think it would be a blatantly stupid move for a scum team to all be on a wagon for a player at the same time, especially when we've all been met with some suspicion so far.

Also at no point in this game, except for my very first post of the game, did I in any way indicate that I was not suspicious of Peanut or Almaster, and my first post was just an agreement with Almaster's argument, not a praise or recognition of Almaster himself.

You'll notice that they both are high on my scum list, and have been for some time. This is also WIFOM, but why would I cast suspicion at both of my partners on D-1, especially if it is clear that one of them won't be lynched? I fail to see the benefit to a scum player in doing that.

Since the original case against me, has anyone seen anything they consider to be a scum tell from me? I haven't seen anything like that mentioned in the last few pages except for declarations of continued suspicions.

So again, does any one have any more questions they'd like me to answer? I'm seeing repeated expressions of suspicion, and at the moment I'm unsure as to what to respond to in order to alleviate that.

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - There is nothing there to destroy. I didn't present that post as a case, nor was it meant to be. I had one point to make, and I made it. You'll notice I didn't vote you, FoS you, or even accuse you of scum. That was something I noticed and pointed out.

[foilist13]

@Sanjay - Can you give us a general idea of your suspicions? You've posted a list of general cases, and pretty much denied all of them, so who do you find most scummy other than me apparently?

[foilist13]

foilist13, here is my main question:

WHAT THE HECK?

What were you hoping for exactly?

How does this explain why you posted your obviously made up reasons?

You typed that you would go into more depth, but then you realized you didn't really have any more depth to go into, so instead of just backspacing out of that problem, you decided to misrepresent your thought processes and go into more depth anyway.

When did i say my reasons were made up? I said I'd go more into depth

after

I posted those reasons. As in more in depth than those reasons.

Do you want a time line?

1) My name mistake is pointed out to me.

2) I'm thinking about other aspects of the game, namely my suspects,

not the person my vote was on.

I was looking for new material.

3) Archaebob posts an attack on me and votes for me based on my misvote. I think "oh" and go about defending myself from the argument. Didn't occur to me to actually change my vote when I got done with my post. I was busy responding to Archaebob's arguments, not thinking about my own actions.

4) The OMGUS part of it comes into my mind when MordyS attacks me, and I decide to leave my vote there.

5) The other reasons I posted occur to me one at a time, but i was busy building my muffin case, so i chose not to post them, rather to justly change my vote to someone I had legitimate suspicions of.

6) I continue to be attacked after my muffin case, so I post the reasons I came up with earlier.

Note: I didn't have all those reasons in my head when my mistake was pointed out and I didn't change my vote. I came up with them after the fact, partly to justify it to myself. I did not take the attacks on me very seriously at first, because I figured it was a weak case at best, and was based on a single mistake, which in itself I found fairly meaningless as my vote wasn't accomplishing anything no matter where it was. I suppose i should have learned my lesson in newbie 846, but I did not think anything of those attacks until a wagon started forming.

I can't think of any way to go more in depth into the whole sequence of events. I think I've bloody well defended myself enough by now. There isn't anywhere else to go with this. You've pointed out all the contradictions, and I've responded with all my thoughts at the time. I'm not in a position to refuse to answer more questions, but it is starting to grate on me.

Now Sanjay, answer my question.

[foilist13]

Even being a power role only goes so far if you won't do any scumhunting. You've spent almost the entire thread half assing a bunch of illogical defenses, why don't you post something new?

How bout, gee I dunno, an accusation? A scum list? A case? Something?

[foilist13]

@SpyreX - What are you talking about?

[foilist13]

@Sanjay - The difference between my two statements about muffin and Archaebob is that muffin was playing much more differently in my eyes, and Archaebob said something earlier in the game about reinventing his playstyle, or just changing it. I'll have to go back and look, but I distinctly remember him saying something like that to Almaster or Cruelty. That makes me less inclined to judge him based on meta, where as muffin does not have that advantage.

Was that clear?

As for the weaksauce part, what did you expect me to do? I didn't have anything else scummy on Muffin, and I clearly wasn't convincing anyone else to vote for him. With that in mind I decided to take Archaebob up on his suggestion of voting non-posters.

[foilist13]

The biggest issue I have with lynching AGM over me, aside from self preservation, is that I am answering questions, AGM is not. According to Sanjay, I posted a plausible defesne, AGM did not. Also, Archaebob, if you lynch me and I flip town, whats to stop the mafia just Night Killing Peanut? What you just said makes him a strong target, so if they chose to do so, you would effectively learn nothing.

I think I have been a much more useful player than AGM, and at least one of you has already pointed that out, and the mafia could easily take away whatever you might learn from me, or not and use it to try and confuse you. There is not so much to learn here as you might think.

Also Peanut buddying up to a disreputable town player is WIFOM. He could do it just to hide behind it later when I flip town, so that argument is null.

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - Are you more interested in lynching me because you want info on Peanut, or because you legitimately think I am scummier that AlmasterGM?

What about my defense to you take issue with, and what about AGM's do you not?

[foilist13]

Obviously. I am voting for him, and he's at L-2.

The only real case he has made against another player was early in the thread against Archaebob, and it was half assed at that. He has done no scumhunting other than that, and has spent all his time telling people they can't lynch him rather than saying who they should lynch. I don't think he's even mentioned the case on me, and hasn't posted any serious suspicion in a very long time. Even if he is the doctor, i think he is such a useless player that we would be just as well off without him and an answer to whether he's scum or not. Does that satisfy you?

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - Answer my question.

[foilist13]

No Archaebob. You need to justify your vote on me, especially since you've decided to confirm it and commit yourself to lynching me today. It is more relevant who is more likely to be scum than whose lynch will be more informative.

[foilist13]

@SpyreX - Why exactly do you think AGM won't get lynched today? You obviously want him lynched, so do something about it, and don't vote to get me lynched on some gut feeling of inevitability.

[foilist13]

I have no issues with that, especially since I think he's lying. If he's telling the truth he's either going to be night killed or role blocked depending on whether or not they have a roleblocker. If he's lying then we've caught scum and all will be well with him.

So yes. I still think we should lynch him.

[foilist13]

@Sanjay - So... you have an issue with what exactly? I have had suspicions of Almaster for some time, so wouldn't it make sense for me to be perfectly happy with him being lynched? I don't think he has done anything useful for the town, and he decided to lurk away the case on him at the beginning. Also shouldn't I prefer to lynch him over me? I mean my wanting to lynch him has only gotten stronger since it began essentially him or me. Under any condition his lynch is preferable to mine.

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - In the scenario I posted Peanut man is scum, not town.

At this point I've got no where left to go. I've answered all the questions directed at me, at least I think I have, and Archaebob has decided to tunnel like a worm running from Satan himself, so my only remaining point to make is that Almaster has made almost no serious attempt at defending himself, and is as we speak lurking away the case on him, just like he did in the beginning of the day.

Archaebob, based on what I know about your attitude towards lurkers I can't believe you haven't tried to hammer AGM.

[foilist13]

@Sanjay - I've got a vague town read on you right now. I haven't seen anything that looks to me like a scum slip so far, but that doesn't mean I'm not looking.

@Archaebob - I'm not saying that there are questions that have gone unanswered other than the ones you just posted, but his choice has been to simply disappear and hope that I get myself lynched, where as I am actively trying to defend myself.

And if you are not tunneling, then what other players have you seriously considered besides me and Almaster?

@Almaster - Why shouldn't we lynch you? Is it just because you've said you were the Doc, or is there something else you have to offer?

[foilist13]

Wow, so why do 3 of you still want to lynch me?

He just said he's leaving his vote on archaebob because no one is complaining about it, and that he is not voting for who he wants lynched because he doesn't want the attention. Seriously? SERIOUSLY?!

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - I only have scum reads on a few players in this game, and Peanut is one of them, but to a lesser extent than most of the others. I never cleared him, and I never damned him.

[foilist13]

Hammer? I'm at L-3. Since it is clear that everyone has decided to lynch me, I'm going to go ahead and play out the rest of the day with the assumption that I am already dead. No I am not scum, so it is more important for you to think about what it means for me to flip town. Don't take this as defense; I fully expect to by lynched, but all of you need to spend more time thinking about what will happen when I flip town, not when I flip scum.

Archaebob's play is obsessive and overzealous, but over all seems pretty townish.

Snajay doesn't seem very different than he did in 846 and I never suspected him there even though he was scum. I'm not sure what to make of him.

Most of the replacements are lurking.

I still think Almaster is the best lynch for today, but that is no longer relevant.

MordyS gives a general town feeling.

Haven't heard from Gammagooey in far too long, you need to post.

SpyreX - I'd love to see some actual content rather than direction.

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - What are your views on Cruelty? Does it bother you that he has posted very infrequently, and that at least one person has said he is the best lynch choice for today?

@Sanjay - What do you think of SpyreX? I don't think I've seen you mention him yet, and I'd be interested to know what you think of his posting style.

[foilist13]

I didn't cite anyone. I asked those players what they think because I think that their answers will be significant.

[foilist13]

I looked back through the thread, and he never came up with a case of his own. All his posts are agreeing with some other player who has just posted accusations. He is very good about including a little extra content so that it looks like he's scum hunting, but he has not strayed from some part of the crowd at any time. He posts just enough, but not enough to draw serious attention.

This seems like an absolute classic scum play. I can't think of anything that would make more sense for a scum player to be doing. However this is only deduction. I haven't seen any solid scum slips.

[foilist13]

Sorry about my lack of posting, it was my birthday this weekend, and I've been busy. I don't have a huge amount to add at this point. I find Cruelty extremely scummy, and to a lesser extent Peanutman, but obviously neither of them is going to be lynched, so I'm leaving my vote on AGM.

It is irritating to no end that no one is bothered by the fact that AGM is random and impulsive, and has no interest in helping the town, he simply doesn't want to be lynched.

[foilist13]

Um, ok. So whoever isn't voting for one of us please do so. I agree with SpyreX that 30 days for one day is pretty ridiculous, so lets get on with it.

[foilist13]

Deadline is in three days.

@Peanutman - Why me as opposed to AGM?

[foilist13]

Well I'm in no position to go crying, so sure.

unvote, vote:Sociopath

[foilist13]

Wow, is no one else amazed at how unique this game has been? We went over thirty pages on day 1, which never happens, I think we had something approaching 20 cases, and now at the last second we've completely shifted our attention. Completely aside from content relevant to the game itself, thats fucking amazing.

[foilist13]

@PhaerieM - I've had several experiences where he is too bogged down with school to post for a day at a time or so.

[foilist13]

That was the most ridiculous day 1 I've ever seen. I agree that Archaebob looks scummy right now, but I'm not really into the idea of lynching him. I've played another game with him, and read another that he was in, and it doesn't seem to odd that he would be upset at the sudden change of pace. I'm much more comfortable with lynching Peanutman right now, but I'm going to with hold my vote until I get my thoughts in order.

[foilist13]

Like I said earlier I'm not terribly suspicious of Archaebob, and his last post seems reasonable enough.

@Phaerie - I can see what you're saying about Peanutman, and I'm still not particularly inclined to vote him, but why don't you tell us who you do suspect?

@Archaebob - So now what? Do you still want to lynch me, or do you have another suspect?

[foilist13]

Hmm, I agree with Almaster on this one, but I also want to hear from Archaebob.

[foilist13]

In the beginning of the game MordyS said something about him being a very strong player by reputation, so maybe that had something to do with it. Also I think we can take from that that he was probably right about his town list. If I were scum I would not be quick to kill someone likely to defend me.

[foilist13]

Wow, this is a complete turn around from yesterday. What happened to all the activity?

Righto, I'm going to go ahead and

vote:almaster

cuz I still think he's scum, and I feel it is totally plausible that he simply bussed out his scum buddy.

So lets get some conversation going!

[foilist13]

Him? Why on earth did you protect him? Sure he technically started the wagon on Socio, but it was Phaerie who really pushed the lynch, so a retal kill would probably go to her. There were several strong town players yesterday to choose from, and Papa Zito, being a replacement, was much less confirmed town than some of the others.

Right now I find Almaster and cruelty (in light of Gammagooey's evidence) super scummy.

@Cruelty - Yesterday I found Peanut moderately scummy, but not nearly as much as you or Almaster (obviously my opinions shifted over time during the day, so please don't give me crap about contradictions from some point during the day. That being said, this opinion was fairly consistant in the second half of the day.) Early today I thought he was a likely scum buddy for socio and almaster (me still believing AGM to be scum), and I was generally willing to go along with MordyS and Sanjay. However, I still had stronger suspicions of other players, you being one, and wasn't willing to commit myself to a Peanut wagon. Then Phaerie posted her piece about peanut which made him look more townish to me, and further compounded my unwillingness to vote him.

I still hold pretty much the same opinion of peanut. He still seems fairly scummy, but there are things about him that seem townish. My biggest suspects, as I said before, are Almaster and Cruelty. I'm happy with lynching either of them, and I see what Gammagooey is sayiong about cruelty being the more informative lynch. Therefore

unvote, vote:Cruelty

As for Archaebob, I don't know what is going on, or why he isn't posting, but I think he is far too intelligent to simply try and lurk away a case on him, even bofore one really begins. Also, his leading the town and controlling discussion means he must have a high opinion of himself, or high aspirations for who he'd like to be, and I doubt that someone like that would stoop to the level of scum lurking and bear the loss of image that would accompany that.

Obviously there is a counter argument, that maybe he's so intelligent he knows we'll all think he's intelligent, etc. etc. etc., but I had a strong town read on him yesterday and am willing to cling to it based on his play, and what I know of him.

[foilist13]

This is my one post for the day, it's Thanksgiving (not sure if you're all American's, but it's important over here.)

@Cruelty - You seem to be grasping at straws to shift attention to other players, i.e. me and AGM, who convieniently were by far the most likely lynch candidates yesterday. None of the things you are saying about either of us can be refuted, because they are simply factual statements backed up by opinions, and none of them are things anyone hasn't said before. Have an original thought yourself there mate, and stop telling me to. Its Thanksgiving weekend. Chill out.

[foilist13]

@Cruelty - Thanksgiving is a huge ass deal here.

1) Factual is referring to "he said this," or "AGM wrote that" etc. The opinions are the arguments you've made about them.

2) Totally cool that you're going on the offensive. My issue is that so far you don't seem to be doing it very well. It looks to me like you are not scumhunting, but looking for arguments and posts that can be made to look scummy.

3) Your going after me and AGM is not necessarily bad or illegitimate, but it seems exceedingly convenient.

4) Do you have an issue with when I voted Sociopath? I liked the case against him, but I still preferred AGM. However, his wagon had the added benefit of me not getting lynched, and AGM's had entirely dried up. Under no circumstances (except for jesterI think) is it beneficial to my win condition to be lynched. I bring this up only because I've been accused before of being scummy for not wanting to be lynched, I think that's stupid.

Ok, done defending myself.

Now, Cruelty, who do you think is a better lynch candidate than you are? Is it still AGM, or have you shifted to someone else?

[foilist13]

@Cruelty - Fine, I have nowhere left to go with this, so I will drop the point for now, however I still feel you are the most informative lynch, as there is not much that can be construed from peanut's flip, and nothing that can be gleaned from AGM's.

The contrast in the game is stark in the absence of Archaebob.

@mod - Please prod Archaebob, I think it's been well over 48 hours, but it was just Thanksgiving, so lets have some leniency in replacing him.

[foilist13]

@cruelty- i no longer have any interest in arguing with you. You've made your points and i disagree with you. You have been consistently scummy in more ways than one, by other players than me, yet i seem to be the only one you're interested in arguing with. I feel that you are the best lynch, and so i am voting you. If you are inclined yo convince me personally to shift my vote, then please present me with a better option, because i do not see one, and i don't agree that your reasons for lynching peanut are good enough to out weigh lynching you.

While it is perfectly understandable that you do not want to be lynched, that is nothing more yhan not a scum tell, and is not a basis for you to defend yourself. That leaves us only with your ideas about peanut being scummy, and the info we could get from his lynch, but frankly i think that you are scummier, and there is more to be learned from yours. If you are desperate for a list of reasons why i find you scummy, look back over today, and if you still can't figure it out then ask and i'll list them.

[foilist13]

Sorry about the typos. I'm posting from an iphone and i'm still not used to the keyboard

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - Great, you've been gone, but now you need to be back. If two games is too much for you then replace out of one.

Now that you are back, why don't you give us a list of reads, or a suspect or something?

@Cruelty - I'll list them when I get home. I'm at an airport on an iPhone, which is not conducive to making long posts. Rest assured however that I will give you the case that you deserve.

@Anyone not voting - Why not? Who are your top suspects? Why aren't you voting them?

Voting is the easiest way to get a read on someone, so lets see some of it.

[foilist13]

Why would not wanting to be lynched not be a basis to defend yourself? Obviously a mislynch is bad, and scum don't want to be lynched either. You're right in that it's a null tell but regardless of my alignment, self preservation is in the interest of both me and my side.

That's why it's a null tell. You can't defend yourself on the basis of a null tell that you brought up. No one is attacking you for it, I'm simply saying you can't defend yourself with it. You not wanting to be lynched is not a reason for me not to want to lynch you.

Now my list of reasons as promised.

1) Yesterday, you failed to do anything other than join existing wagons with bad arguments. See Papa Zito's post, #712 on page 29 for a very nice explanation of this point.

2) In post 885 you deliberately tell people not to analyze you and just take what you said at face value. This goes against the basic concept of the game, and is essentially giving you a free pass to say whatever scummy things you feel like.

3) During that same post you make an extremely scummy stab at me. You listed me greeting Archaebob and Muffin for some reason which you seemed to withhold. I don't know what you meant by it, then you listed three fairly consistent views of peanut by me and listed them as contradiction. The whole post looked to me like scum desperately trying to get attention onto another player he thinks there might be enough steam to lynch.

4) Then you say I was speculating about something and finish by saying you aren't that suspicious of me anymore. Hmm, not really sure what to make of that part, but it feels like throwing out a line and seeing who will bite. If I think about it psychologically i can't see a reason for a town player to make a post like that. You are trying to see what everyone else thinks of a potentially scummy player, not because you think they're scum, but because you think you might be able to get them lynched. I can't prove this part, but it sticks out in my mind.

5) In day one, you stubbornly stuck to your "playing cards close to your chest," and then revealed that you just didn't have any information worth posting. That feels like either scum trying to get by without posting, or disinterested town.

6)

Cruelty didn't contribute much at all yesterday, didn't mention Muffin/Socio until very late in the game, and similar to peanutman is pushing on archae who I think just made a townie mistake (reasoning was a few posts back if you want it). In addition, he's still stating that foilist is scummy even though Socio's flip makes him just about as confirmed as a village idiot as he can get. He also has inconsistancies in his reasoning for being irritated at AGM and changing from not wanting to lynch AGM yesterday to wanting him lynched now.

I will vote for any of these three dudes. However, if cruelty is scum I think AGM looks a hell of a lot better given my bussing is suicide theory, making peanutman the last maf in my eyes (doesn't work the other way around:if peanut is scum, either Al or cruelty could be the last maf). I'm thinking cruelty gives us the most info from the lynch and has a high chance of lynching ze scum.
Vote:cruelty

I like this reason, and I don't feel entitled to rephrasing it and taking credit for it. This is the information part.

7) Later you make a ridiculous argument about whether or not your arguments were factual. Either you deliberately misread what I was writing or you're at about third grade literacy.

8) In post 923

I'm going to throw out peanut as the better lynch - even though I'm not entirely sold on the idea of him as mafia (although I do understand the cases being made) I'm willing to get behind his lynch for two reasons - one is obviously to save myself, and the other is I think we'll get genuine information from it. Firstly, as someone said earlier, cruelty/peanut scumteam + bussing at this point = suicide, so I think that by pushing this lynch I can effectively clear myself regardless of his flip. Secondly, if he flips town then we learn that there is a much more devious player at work here - I highly doubt anyone seriously considers an AGM/cruelty or foilist/cruelty scumteam, so regardless of how I look in a peanut-town flip, it becomes obvious that there is another, more dangerous (and possibly already cleared) player out there. I realise that's a fairly bold swing to make and yeah, WIFOM laden, but I can't see a better way out for both myself and for town.

Here you are not acting pro-town, you are acting pro-self. You are posting from a standpoint that it is unacceptable for you to be lynched. If you think the town would get definite info on who "X" scum is by you being lynched, then the pro-town thing to do would be to make sure the town gets as much damn information from your lynch as possible, or find scum. Your reasoning is that "I know I'm not scum, so me being lynched is anti-town and I can't allow it. So anyone's lynch is preferable to mine because there is a chance they could be scum, but there I know that there is no chance I'm scum." This is not unreasonable, but if you being lynched gives us good info on who a scum player is then being a martyr would actually be pro-town so long as you help the town as much as possible. You don't have to survive to win.

I'll buy your Peanut vote though, as from your point of view that is what it makes sense to do.

My case is not a solid as I had thought it would be, but I fail to find another player who is scummier, and whose lynch will provide more information, but I would be glad to be proven wrong.

[foilist13]

Confirm vote:Cruelty

I'm pretty much done for now. If I see something new that jumps out at me I'll comment on it, or answer questions if people have them, but I've found who I want.

[foilist13]

I'll do my best.

1) Yesterday he behaved like text book scum, i.e. by slipping on the back of bandwagons, posting infrequently, and having poor arguments that felt distinctly fabricated.

2) Today he seems to be going after the easiest lynches, which could be a null tell, but is also text book scum.

3) His defense is exclusively arguing semantics, OMGUS statements, and poor logic.

4) What seems to be a lack of serious scum hunting.

5) Misrepresentation on day one, i.e. saying he was withholding information until the opportune moment, then when repeatedly questioned revealed he had none.

6) In his latest defense he ignored several points and essentially called me an idiot based on his inability to read.

That's about as concise as I can make it.

[foilist13]

@Cruelty - Go back and read my earlier posts. I've answered all the points you just brought up, except for your OMGUS stabs at me.

I have no issues looking at other players, and I fully intend to. Recently though you and I have both been caught up in a sort of give and take and I'm in six games right now. I plan on reading everyone in iso after rereading the whole thread, but I'm not promising I'll have anything new or brilliant. It all depends on what I find.

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - Why don't you tell me specifically what you take issue with so that I can have a clear idea of it, and we can judge whether or not you're defending him without ulterior motives.

[foilist13]

I'd take this time to post something worth reading, since you've said effectively nothing all day. I'll take you up on that though, and formulate a stronger case.

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - Several people have posted vague opinions on whether or not I am likely to be town based on muffin/socio's flip, but I honastly have no idea what the general consensus may be. There is no wagon on me at the moment, and Cruelty's suspicion of me feels OMGUS driven, which I can relate to, but you are the only person to indicate any real suspicion. Can you elaborate on that?

[foilist13]

I'm betting it took you more than 5 min to write that post, so now that you see mine can you respond to it?

[foilist13]

The first sentences were leading up to the last sentence, and meant to explain why I was asking you specifically.

[foilist13]

You are misreading me Archaebob. I want to know why you think I'm scum. That's it. Answer the question please.

[foilist13]

@Gammagooey - I'm willing to back off Cruelty for now, and yes I'll try and be civil, but he and Archaebob have been less than that towards me this game, and it's starting to get under my skin.

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - Back off here having the meaning of not tunneling, and generally leaving him alone. I've said what I wanted to about him, now I'm going to go look at other players.

[foilist13]

I had planned on posting today, but I have an ungodly amount of work to do before tomorrow, so I'll post either late tonight or tomorrow afternoon. Consider me V/LA till then.

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - Please respond to Sanjay's comments about the Muffin/Chinaman give and take. I'm very interested in this, possibly enough to shift my vote, but since you are the driving factor behind it, I want to hear what you have to say in response.

[foilist13]

Well this is a major turn around. I do have a question though, how has this affected your opinion of AGM?

[foilist13]

@MordyS - I really am not liking the casual way you voted Archaebob. You didn't specify any reasons, except that he has raised "red flags" and that he protested the Sociopath lynch yesterday. I think that his protest was consistent with his earlier play. I haven't ever seen Archaebob do things casually, and he requires ample reason to do anything. I can see that he didn't see nearly as much reason to lynch Sociopath as me or AGM, so I am not inclined to think he is scum.

I still like the Cruelty lynch, and if we buy what Peanut is saying, I think that his is best by far.

[foilist13]

I'm going to go read this iso.

@Archaebob, did you read Sanjay in iso as well? Is he just as shy about mentioning MordyS?

[foilist13]

Anyway, how close are we to lynching archaebob-scum?

Not close at all. Right now a lot of the arguments back and forth are "your shit is bad, so you must be scum." Setting all that aside however, MordyS comes out far scummier than Archaebob.

@MordyS - You are attacking Archaebob for being hysterically defending himself, i.e. nervous scum I assume. However in reading, you come off far more anxious than he does, and the quality of your posts has diminished over time. Actually you sound a lot like Almaster did yesterday.

Many Archaebob's cases rest on assumptions, which he states in them. That means that there is no contradiction, and they are meant to be conjecture, not damning evidence. So far his cases have been better than yours.

I don't have time right now to go back and check the validity of Archaebob's statement about you never seriously mentioning Sanjay, but until I do I will take it to be true. That in and of it self is an extremely strong connection between you and he. The only reason not to take a position on another player is if you are trying not to attract attention to them. That's it.

My Cruelty suspicions were never as strong as I would have liked, but they were the strongest. That is no longer the case.

It now seems as though this is realistically between MordyS and Archaebob, and I am inclined to choose MordyS.

unvote, Vote:MordyS

[foilist13]

@Archaebob - There is a lot of content here. Post what he left out, and some of this MOAR. If you are holding on to it to make sure that MordyS digs himself into a hole, then fine.

@MordyS - How was that a manifesto against Archaebob? You didn't post any points against him, you just defended yourself against specific points of his. I don't even think you called him scummy, there was just a bunch of OMGUS, and insults. It's hard to be convincing when you sound like an asshole.

[foilist13]

Don't get your panties in a bunch. I'll answer all the questions directed at me when I get a chance. Now is not that chance though, but it will come tomorrow afternoon. I'm reading this whole MordyS vs. Archaebob scene right now, trying to get a better idea of what I make of it.

[foilist13]

@MordyS - You said you had a strong town read on Gammagooey. It seems as though your opinions with with convenience.

Ok, questions asked of me.

@Foilist, why did you say :

It now seems as though this is realistically between MordyS and Archaebob, and I am inclined to choose MordyS.

Before that point, I had been wanting to lynch either Cruelty, AGM, or possibly you, but your claim has basically cleared you and AGM for the day. That leaves Cruelty, however he had responded better to my arguments than I was really willing to admit, and this new debate between Archaebob and MordyS looked as though it would be extremely fruitful, and so it has.

I still like the Cruelty lynch, and if we buy what Peanut is saying, I think that his is best by far.

Why? If peanut is the cop then half the case against me (that peanut and I didn't address each other day 1) goes away. And you're left with your bunch of dubious points and OMGUS.

A significant portion of your defense was based on lynching Peanut instead, and in absence of that lynching you would be a better option, and would yield more information. I'm not voting you anymore, so I really don't want to get into a debate about how good of a lynch you really would be unless we start seriously considering you. Is that fair?

It now seems as though this is realistically between MordyS and Archaebob, and I am inclined to choose MordyS.

How is this justification for a vote in this town?

Despite the vast amounts of content in this thread, or rather because of it, it has become exceedingly hard to sift through posts and find scum slips. There are not a lot of people today who look particularly scummy, although that is changing. I still like the vote, and plan on sticking by it for the present.

It now seems as though this is realistically between MordyS and Archaebob, and I am inclined to choose MordyS.

How is this even true? There was one vote on me. How is this realistically between me and Archaebob? There isn't a single scummy thing I've done. The one case against me that you agree with turns out to be factually incorrect. This is the reason why I wanted to lynch you yesterday -- awful, awful, awful play.

Yeah, whatever. Clearly there are scummy things you've done, more so than any other player. I'd list them, but I'd essentially be quoting Archaebob, so I won't until I have something new to add. The bottom line is he's right. As for factually incorrect, that part of the case is no longer what I'm basing my vote on, but I still haven't checked it out for myself.

Cruelty's post then is pretty much just calling me stupid, so yeah, ok whatever.

Foilist, as you are debating whether Mordy or Archae is the better lynch, you use this type of argument? Really? I know it's only one of your points but you're blindly (without checking) using one of the candidate's argument, admittedly, as evidence against the other. Really didn't give Mordy much of a chance on that point.

Yes, I am absolutely comfortable with accepting a factual argument as true until I check it. That does not mean I am not going to check it, that means I haven't checked it yet. I think lying is stupid, and potentially scummy, so I expect people not to do it, however I still will check up on facts.

[quote="MordyS]OMG LOL. Do you realize I attacked archaebob first? Are you even following the fucking thread?[/quote]

OMGUS has been a pretty prevalent part of your argument since he attacked you. Shockingly it is possible to add OMGUS to an argument after you've already voted.

Ok, if I missed anything point it out to me, but I think I've answered everything directed at me.

[foilist13]

My my my my my.

Ok, Sanjay you asked for my strongest town read: Archaebob.

His play is totally consistent with his Newbie 846 play, and very different from his 842 play. I don't see a legitimate scum tell on Archaebob from MoryS at all.

Re: Archaebob's stance on lynching lurkers.

You've cited this as "Damning evidence," but it is not. He said that on principle he would prefer to lynch a lurker on D-1 than an active scummy in order to ensure activity, however in this game that could not be farther from a necessity. The biggest lurker we have here is AGM, and he is comfortable lurking since peanut has pretty much saved him. Peanut also has sort of disappeared....

If anyone else is the cop or the doctor, for the love of god claim.

Anyway, it is quite logical that Archaebob simply changed his opinion in light of his conviction that he had solved the game, and the overwhelming activity of this thread.

This is no tell at all.

Of the two, Mordy is far scummier to me. More than once he has responded to one of Archaebob's wall posts with a one liner or expression of frustration. Your vote of me is just stupid, however, I agree that I have not been a very useful player, and am actually prepared to hammer myself for the benefit of the town if it comes down to me and someone I firmly believe is town, which right now is Archaebob and Gammagooey.

Gamma, if you happen to be scum I give you major props.

@MordyS - Your case is not nearly as good as you think it is. Archaebob's logic is better, and the scum tells he has brought up against you are much more convincing than those you have accused him of.

[foilist13]

@Sanjay - Same answer to your first question. I didn't like the new wagon at all, but I recognized that most of the people moving to it were from the AGM wagon, so it was then him or me. I thought all the people who just jumped on the new wagon were extremely scummy (hypocritical I know, but I already explained why I was on it) but in light of his flip I find that less likely.

I thought the wagon itself was not a good one, and Phaerie was the instigator, not Papa (that is debatable, but that's what I thought at the time so the point is moot). I felt that Papa was townish, but far from the most pro-town player. At the time I thought Gammagooey, Archaebob, and Mordy were much more pro-town, and much more dangerous for scum.

@Peanut - You are sufficiently active to avoid a prod. Whoohoo!

Archaebob's one liners are in general pointed and followed up. "How close are we to lynching Archaebob?" is not an appropriate response.

I have reread Gammagooey, and it is precisely because I believe he is town that I would be impressed if he were scum.

[foilist13]

@Sanjay - No. Papa is not Obv. town. I've seen scum post cases on their scum buddies once it seemed like there were two opposing wagons that were a sure thing to do some nice distancing. I have had personal experience with this, and I think it is far from impossible that that is exactly what Papa was doing, and obviously he couldn't just back down once it started going somewhere.

[foilist13]

Oh, you just got yourself killed tomorrow right there. He asked for 24 hours mate, not days.

[foilist13]

Mordy and Sanjay, you are both now going to die. I have been putting soooo little of my potential effort into this game, which is a large part of why I have appeared scummy due to my laziness, but right now I am going to replace out of all my other games and focus the entirety of my attention and mental capacity on this one game, which is something I have never come close to doing on this site.

I don't expect you to believe me, I expect you to wait and see.

[foilist13]

Actually I might stay in one newbie game because I feel responsible as an SE, but that is going to do effectively nothing to limit the torrent that is to come.

[foilist13]

I'm willing to lynch gammagooey at the end of the day if it comes down to claims, but right now I need to

vote: MordyS

after that stunt you pulled you are obv scum. No amount of frustration can come close to explaining that.

[foilist13]

@Sanjay - I see no reason to doubt Peanut's claim. If there was another cop, he would have claimed by now, and the godfather does indicate that there would be a cop in the first place. Peanut's logic is solid.

The only reason not to lynch is to get more info, but we already have info. We know who the next scum player is, and if through some twist of fate peanut is lying and the mod put in a godfather for no reason, then we'll be able to lynch him tomorrow, leaving us with 3 town to 1 scum, giving us another opportunity, and much more useful opportunity to no lynch.

unvote, vote: Gammagooey

[foilist13]

No MordyS, Archaebob was not wrong. He thought sanjay was probably your scumbuddy, but now we know that to be Gamma. You sir are scum. You will die by the end of the game. Right now though Gamma is going to die, as he is essentially confirmed scum.

[foilist13]

@Peanut - I intend to, but I think we can be fairly certain of Mordy based on his interactions with archaebob in isolation.

@Sanjay - There is no reason in this situation to no lynch. We have caught one if not both scum.

[foilist13]

What was wrong with my gamma vote? I wanted to make sure the town knew where I stood, then executed the right play which was to lynch gammagooey. I still believe that mordy is scum, but part of that case rested on sanjay being scum also. I couldn't believe it when you guys lynched archeabob. He pointed out several clear contradictions that mordy made, and was much more convining than mordy, at least to me.

I knew archaebob had been wrongly lynched because we play together on another sirlte and he told me after mordy hammered

[foilist13]

@Sanjay - I had gone back and compiled a list of connections between you and Mordy, things that made you look like scum helping each other. It's all irrelevant now though, and I'm now looking more at other players besides Mordy, though I still think that the strongest case to be made here is one him.

@Papa Zito - I wasn't totally convinced of Peanut's cop claim at the time, but I should have made it more clear that I intended to lynch gammagooey.

[foilist13]

I may have to actually eat some crow here and shift my focus back to cruelty. I'm seeing more scum tells from him now that people have pointed out than I previously had for MordyS.

I am going to arrange them here, so we can all see what we're looking at.

1. Cruelty wasn't on the SocioPath wagon, or the Gammagooey wagon.

2. MordyS's voting pattern comparison, post# 1479, which is too intricate to abbreviate well, so please go look at it.

3. He somehow knew AGM's avatar beforehand (figured what the hell, I'll include it).

4. -1. cruelty floats the idea that foilist13 is not necessarily scummy and might just be irritatingly stubborn.
-2. MordyS says he is sort of getting a poor-town vibe from MordyS.
-3. Benmage posts a vote count, clearly showing three votes on foilist13, from archaebob, SpyreX and MordyS.
-4. foilist13 posts a full player analysis with scummy vibes on exactly three people: Muffin, Gammagooey and cruelty.
-5. cruelty says foilist13 is his top suspect. But more importantly: cruelty accuses foilist13 of "basically getting scummy vibes from anyone who dares question him". WHAT? (Better than my own abbreviation)

5. Cruelty claims vanilla for no reason, and can't explain his reasoning.

6. Cruelty defends all the scum early day 1 on the basis of a lie.

7. Cruelty evades Sanjay's attack without rebutting.

8. Sanjay post# 1500 is also too long to abbreviate.

That's the general basis of the case on cruelty right now, and I'm starting to find it pretty convincing.

[foilist13]

Interesting. I'm not voting cruelty yet, despite is stupid vote on me, I assume out of frustration. We do have a free lynch to spare though, so i'm a little more laid back here than I would normally be.

One thing I really don't like here is the assumption that papa zito is town. No one has pointed to any concrete evidence that supports that, other than he seems like town. Well guess what, gamma seemed a hell of a lot like town to all of us, so you need to bust that notion out of your minds. Papa right now is active lurking. He is popping in to post townish content, then disappearing for 24 hours or so, only to do it again. This is a strong scum tell that can't be ignored this late in the game.

[foilist13]

@Mordy - I think it's fairly obvious what the comment meant. He was saying that we have no reason from stopping you showing your true colors. When you get that deep into a debate it is much easier to see where your motivation is coming from.

"Digging yourself in a hole" is you as scum damning yourself with some kind of contradiction, which we got. You quickhammering Archaebob is still the biggest scum tell I have seen throughout the game. Though I would love to have been right about the three scum on day one with a player analysis, I don't think Cruelty has acted as clearly scummy as you have.

This is why I think you are scum:

1) You hammered Archaebob, your primary opponent who was town, despite him having consistently promised to answer all your questions, and post a massive case on that friday.

This is inexcusable.

2) [quote=Archaebob, post# 1245]If Mordy believed that my abstaining from the wagon was justifiable as strongly as he seems to have here, then why would I be his second pick after peanutman?

It seems that he just forgot he was supposed to have all this suspicion of cruelty, and decided for completely arbitrary reasons to vote me. Pure scumminess. Were he town, I'd expect a progression in his thought. Not only was there not one of any kind, but when i questioned him, trying to make him examine his points against me, he confirmed that it was really just because. Recently, he has blatantly stated that choosing me was completely random.[/quote]

This is very abbreviated, but the rest of the post lists the quotes and evidence for this train of thought. I will gladly elaborate if you so wish.

Vote: MordyS

[foilist13]

No, yours was not. Putting him at L-1 was not forcing him to reserve his wall post. There is no comparison.

[foilist13]

Mordy, you sir are much more of an idiot than I will ever be, as apparently you are unable to grasp simple concepts.

I'll use small words for you.

Cruelty thought you were both town. he didn't know that you were both town. He wanted to see if you were both town. So he let you argue.

No shit sherlock.

Your second point further proves your lack of intelligence.

You haven't contradicted anything I said, and your point is entirely irrelevant.

Oh wait, small words.

What you said didn't say something different than what I said. So it doesn't matter.

[foilist13]

@Mordy - You are implying that Cruelty meant letting you as town bury yourself, which is obviously a stupid thing for him to say, and I know he is intelligent enough not to have meant that.

[foilist13]

listen people, like I've said, I have major papers to write today. If you're going to hammer me before i can respond, then god bless you, but I don't have time to do this today, as I've already stated. Right now, I'm the dead-line lynch, so you have no reason not to give me a day to defend myself properly.

I claim vanilla townie.

I'd be very wary of anyone who tries to force this lynch through before hearing what I have to say, as there is no good reason for it.

AGM, that last vote is making me doubt my read on the entire situation. It looks like you just waited to see who was going to win out in Mordy vs. me, and then dropped your vote on the person who seemed like they were going to get lynched. That was L-1, dude, without any justification or comments. Really?

If I die, when you see my flip, vote MordyS/Sanjay. I hope you guys won't just assume that I'm crazy, because I'm not. Look out how Sanjay has danced around this conversation. Him reverting back to me after it became clear that I was ultimately the under-dog is EXACTLY what I was expecting from him.

I'm going to have the most epic wall of my life on this thread tomorrow night. Do yourselves a favor and let me post it.

Archaebob made this post after you voted him, but before Mordy hammered. That is the difference. Can you point to a single thing in that post that was unreasonable?

[foilist13]

@Mod, can you fix the quote tag for me?

[foilist13]

It was about Mordy. It wasn't a defense, it was an attack. Read the post quoted.

@Sanjay - Fine. I retract what I said about Cruelty, and I will refrain from defending him at all in the future, or anyone else.

[foilist13]

@Papa - I'm not ready to post a case yet. Things have changed rapidly since day 2, and Cruelty's flip is going to make a huge difference.

I think right now that is the most important information to be had, and even though I personally think Mordy is more likely to be the next scum, Cruelty is a close second. With that in mind,

unvote, Vote:Cruelty

[foilist13]

You aren't the number one scum anymore. You now occupy the number three spot. However I have come to the conclusion that the best play is to lynch cruelty, then move on to tomorrow if he is not the last scum. Mordy, you aren't going to get a case until tomorrow, and possibly not even then. This all depends on my third suspect whom I am not going to disclose until I try to lynch them.

[foilist13]

@Sanjay - That is a perfectly reasonable question, but I am not in a position where I can disclose that information without giving up my third suspect, and I would much prefer letting them play out the day on their own.

@Papa Zito - Same answer.

I intend not to divulge who I am looking at, and drilling me for a name or information would defeat the purpose, not that you have started doing that yet.

[foilist13]

I'm still here. I've benn checking regularly, but I've said my piece for today, unless for some weird reason we don't hear from cruelty.

@Sanjay - what are you waiting to hear from me? I made my position clear, and made it clear I was not going to reveal more than that.

[foilist13]

I made that clear already Sanjay. Yes.

Cruelty, please don't kill yourself. At least let someone else hammer you if you're going to give up. Self hammering gives us NO information other than your flip, which if you got lynched we would have anyway.

If you've decided to just give up, that sucks, but we can't force you to play. But don't deliberately rob us of information.

[foilist13]

I agree. Play the game you signed up for. Catch the scum. I'm more than willing to listen to anything you come up with.

How bout this. You said "tell me what to say, and I'll say it," so post a player analysis list. Say who you think are most likely to be the last scum and why, and if you say yourself you have no business being on this site, and you ought not to sign up for any more games.

[foilist13]

@Sanjay - Let me make this abundantly clear, as after several posts you don't seem to have grasped it. Yes, cruelty is my top suspect. I must have said that at least three times now. Good god man, are you reading my posts? You're asking me questions I've already answered.

[foilist13]

Yeah, it's Mylo. I'm going to have to put my vote there as well for now. I can't see how it wouldn't be the right move.

vote:no lynch

[foilist13]

Actually,

unvote

. I want to be sure we get some serious discussion in before we no lynch it up. I never really thought about quick no lynching, but it seems like a legitimate concern.

@Papa - who are your suspects, why?

[foilist13]

Actually,

unvote

. I want to be sure we get some serious discussion in before we no lynch it up. I never really thought about quick no lynching, but it seems like a legitimate concern.

@Papa - who are your suspects, why?

[foilist13]

Ok someone needs to explain the theory to me then. I haven't been in this situation before, so splain.

[foilist13]

Ok, I can swing with that.

However, what's to stop the scum from just not killing anyone and forcing discussion in Mylo? He could just keep doing that until we lynch somebody.

[foilist13]

Interesting.

[foilist13]

It was Sanjay Mordy, then I thought it might be phaerie, but they're both dead now.

Why you and I are still alive is wifom. You ciuldhave put me here to defend yourself, because "why would you leave someone who obviously suspects you?"

however you are the scum.

You voted.

The only reason you would have voted in lylo is if you were sure you found the scum, or if you just had to convince one of the townies. =/

So the only reason you could have voted as town in lylo is if you were absolutely sure. If you were absolutely sure, why did you unvote?

[foilist13]

I don't want to wrap this up, I want to win. I didn't vote you because tha would be stupid. I'm pretty sure, but I'm not possitive.

I can't find solid reasons to think papa is scum.

I can find solid reasons to think you are scum.

I can find two of them in fact.

1) You hammered archaebob, when he had promised answers at a set time.
2) You just voted in lylo without hearing any conversation. I do not buy that you just didn't realize the scum player could hammer and be done.

So instead of trying to end things quickly, and rely on papas case on mento convince him to side with you, convince we that you are town and go after papa, since clearly you have strong suspicions of him.

Also if you are scum, how could you not leave me alive into lylo? It would be sheer idiocy to leave me alive and be left with papa and furry/phaerie, both of whom have been semi confirmed town most of the day.

It seems like a perfect play to me that you leave me alive to try and show your innocense, and convince papa to go after me. Then you make a show of voting papa so that it isn't obvious, and you let him convince you that I'm the scum. Pretty handy, no? You could vote like that, because you are in no danger of scum quickhammering.

I see the mindset argument against papa, but you make more sense. If you want to win you need to convince either papa or me that we are wrong and to vote for the other. If you're town, you also need to be right, but I don't think that's too much of a concern for you.

I'm going to think about this long and hard before I vote, but it would be a poor play by either of you who suspects the other to leave me to make up my own mind.

[foilist13]

Let's look at it another way.

You the townie come into day 6, after two nights of rereading, and you have a town read on me, and think papa is scum, then after less than a page of debate you are suddenly conviced and willing to vote me and see what happens?

I think not.

[foilist13]

PhaerieM
Mafia Scum





Gender:
Joined: 06 Nov 2009
Location: USA

Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:25 am    Post subject: 12
Seriously Mordy?? He said Friday! From the very beginning he said Friday! You couldn't wait for him for one day? And now I'm left to wonder if scum would do something so *amazingly* stupid & reckless & paint a huge target on their back that way.

You know what? Either way, you are dangerous and horrible for the town. As town or scum.

vote: MordyS

Interesting who didn't make it to lylo.

And yes, that is clearly a scum tell. It makes sense as scum, not as town. I don't buy into "too scummy to be scum." That is just an excuse for scum to behave anti-town under cover of wifom.

[foilist13]

Ah, second part. I rereading both of them, and they played exactly the way I, and one of my friends play as scum. Don't think you were a distant third though, and it was cruelty in front of you, not phaerie. She never made it that far.

They both are now dead, so your scum tells rise to the top.

@Papa - I didn't hammer the no lynch because the conversation wasn't over. I was waiting for the mods policy, and I expected a "so then" from you after we heard it.

[foilist13]

No, not particularly. Go look at Newbie 873. That is the only scum meta of mine I can direct you to.

As scum I tend to be much more reasonable and nice to people, and I am never confrontational unless I don't have a choice. Just the wording of Phaerie's posts set off my scumdar.

This is irrelevant however. Phaerie is dead.

Why don't you and papa also send links to your scum meta, so we can all see what the other ones look like.

[foilist13]

Listen very carefully, cuz apparently this is difficult for you. When I have three possibilities, i.e. You, Phaerie, and Sanjay, I can't be sure of any of them. When two of those three are eliminated, I have 1. The end.

I found them scummy because they played the way I would have, and Sanjay more so due to actual evidence. If you cannot grasp that, I honestly don't care. I didn't go after them, because there is no way to prove that, and for the second time, I suspected you more than Phaerie.

I am not going to defend either of those suspicions,

because they are irrelevant. I have been proven wrong because they are dead.

[foilist13]

I linked you to my scum meta, because I had hoped that you were intelligent enough to read it and see the parallels between my play and Sanjay/Phaerie's.

[foilist13]

Are you literate? I have said, and I will say for the third time now that I did not suspect Phaerie more than you. You were my third suspect behind

Sanjay and Cruelty

.

Ask me a question based on reality when you come down from whatever you're on.

[foilist13]

Scum are not inherently disposed to be illogical. I haven't contradicted myself once about names since day one. Let me make this abundantly clear. You asked who my third suspect had been. I said Sanjay and later Phaerie. That doesn't mean Sanjay and Phaerie before you. That means that Sanjay was my mystery suspect, but after he was killed I began to suspect Phaerie. I never put Phaerie before you, and I still haven't. Do you get it now?

[foilist13]

No. There isn't any point. There is no reason to justify any of those suspicions, though I already have.

The only point you stand to make is that if those cases are faulty, and they are better than the one on you, then the one on you must be terrible in order for them to be better.

This is not a useful case to make. No matter what I post, you are going to do your utmost to poke holes in it, to try and discredit my case on you now. I'm not interested in that.

The case I have on you is based on concrete evidence, not reads, so my reads cannot be faulty.

I'll repeat them in case you'd like to defend yourself.

1) You hammered Archaebob prematurely, and inexcusably so.
2) You threw out a vote immediately in Lylo based on shaky evidence.

No, you didn't claim not to know the consequences. That would be stupid, but at least you would be stupid instead of scum. As it is you just aren't very bright scum.

I'm going to hear from Papa before I vote you, but I'm fairly certain we've won at this point.

[foilist13]

One, you are discounting the possibilty that you are scum, which is understandable, but it would be stupid for us to believe you. If you really think I'm the scum, then you should be voting mr. The way you've set it up though, voting me would be OMGUS, which would be monumentally stupid in lylo.

If you really think papa zito is scum, then you should be voting him. You actually posted against him, and you even voted him. The only reason your attention is on me right now is because I'm going after you.

You seem to be putting store in arguments based on who is left alive, so riddle me this. Why for the love of god would I leave alive you and papa into lylo? Papa seems to suspect me, and you have been a huge adversary to me, and would be inclined to not take my posts seriously, and to go after me, as would papa. That is a

terrible

position for me to be in under any circumstances. Look, you were looking at papa, and already you're seriously considering voting mr because I'm doing exactly what my previous stated opinions said I should do, which is go after you. Papa could be the scum. I'm not positive about you, and that is why I'm not voting you. Unlike you I'm still taking the game seriously. Stop calling me a moron and do something useful for once. This "let's get it over with" attitude is not helping anyone. You sir are a poor player

[foilist13]

I just heard it.

Gah. You don't let up pressure on a scummy player. If someone quickhammered archaebob it'd be horrendously scummy. You have to give people the chance to be horrendously scummy.

It's iffy. Cutting him off early is certainly anti-town. I dunno about scummy really. It's possible MordyScum decided to hammer to prevent another magical wagon from forming, but eh.

Mordy, you and I have struck gold. Papa must be the scum. Inconsistency is the biggest tell, and he has committed it massively.

vote:Papa Zito

[foilist13]

Perhaps I am a poor town player, but we have just won. There is no question.

[foilist13]

Not really. I RRREEEAAALLLYYYY wanted you to be the scum, but I'm sure now, so its over. Either you'll vote him like you should, or he'll convince you I'm scum and we'll lose.

[foilist13]

Are you not compelled by the quote I brought up? Why on earth aren't you "horrendously scummy?" Iffy and horrendously scummy are a long way off, and I voted based on that and I was right.

[foilist13]

Fair enough. His only play is to vote me now obviously, so we'll see how he justifies it. I am sure I don't have any contradictions anywhere near as damning as that though.

Oh, and this game definitively proves that bussing out your Godfather on D1 doesn't mean shit! Obv town my ass.

[foilist13]

Dammit mordy!! That was not my fault
in any way, shape, or form. You fucked it up. There was no logical reason to vote me at all. That was an OMGUS vote and you know it. Innocuous comment my ass. Have you ever played before? Seriously?

Whatever, I found the scum. I was right, you were wrong, so I feel vindicated.

[foilist13]

Good play papa. Mordy was too thick headed for me to win foilist/papa, no matter what I might bring up. He was always going to go with his "gut" which translated into attacking me as soon as I started talking just because he doesn't like me. There hasn't been anything wrong with my play since D1. That's just when I lost my credibility.

He voted me out of OMGUS, becuase he can't understand the difference between people he doesn't like and scum. Seriously, maybe a fourth of scum players actually come off abrasive most if the time.