Mini 873 Plainview Game Over

[PhaerieM]

Hi all I may not get the chance to finish reading up until tonight, hopefully I'll be able to post something more by then.

[PhaerieM]

Oh, and

UNVOTE

for now.

[PhaerieM]

A second reason is, if I can be totally truthful, I'm not exactly confident about my prospects of surviving the night. I'm therefore expressing everything that I've noticed about everyone, rather than holding on to it for Day 2.

Archaebob, why are you not confident about your chance of surviving the night? Don't scum generally go for players that are pretty well-confirmed town, or at least players with not very much suspicion on them?

[PhaerieM]

I'm not very far in my reading yet (I ended up not having to go out, but I'm doing things around the house <and watching my redskins play abysmally bad > in between reading up, so it's probably going to take me awhile), but so far:

Hello hello.

What Almaster says about MordyS actually holds water. It makes sense, to me at least, for a town player to research a player they're suspicious of, but to go and look up everyone or even random people at the very beginning?

Vote:MordyS

Hello Archaebob and Muffin

I'm pretty sure foilist is scum. This post was obviously one of someone who came in and starting reading on page 2 (or 3, was it? I think it was 2, though, whatever page he posted this), and just assumed MordyS was the one who Almaster was jumping on because Mordy was the one defending the position of reading through games before you play on that page. He didn't take the time to go back and see the original argument to know who Almaster was jumping on, and he didn't get the fact that gamma wasn't specifically reading up on Almaster or anyone else, but simply remembered Almaster's avatar from a game he did read.

Town would not just pick up reading their game on page 2 & jump into an argument that they didn't even see the start of. I think this was lazy scumwork. See an argument, pick a side, and jump on the person you see as the weakest (and it's even lazier than that, because he erroneously picked a person who wasn't even in the original argument to begin with!), rather than start at the beginning to try and get real reads on people.

This post tells me this is someone who already knows who is scum & who's town (otherwise he'd be scumhunting starting on page 1) and is just looking for an already established argument to jump into.

Now of course, this is really early on in my reading, so I'll see how I feel after I'm done, and see how good my initial instincts are lol.

The only problem with this is that I'm getting a light scum-read on Almaster, too. Would foilist be so obvious as to stand up for such a bad argument from his scumbuddy, and right out of the gate?

[PhaerieM]

I'm pretty sure MordyS is town, due to these two posts:

Ok, archaebob was looking for more people to weigh in on this foilist13 situation, so I'm about to do that. After a full reread, the thing that stuck out the most to me was;

Taking all this into account though, I can't prove or deduce that MordyS was looking up other players. I found it moderately scummy after Almaster pointed it out, but I concede the point as I can't prove it.

I got caught up, as did archaebob, on the name typo. It was a minor thing (we've all made reading mistakes), but it did indicate, especially coming in the middle of a discussion, that he wasn't doing due diligence to his reading. But on reread, what I noticed more was, "I found it moderately scummy after Almaster pointed it out, but I concede the point as I can't prove it." This is the kind of sneaky, scum-language that drives me nuts where he hedges on either side.

There's another example of this from Muffin (I'll quote Chinaman, who first noted this in post 49):

I would actually venture to say the biggest scumtell so far comes from Muffin who is "inclined to agree" nice and early so if the BW stays strong toward end of deadline, he can say "I said I agreed on p2!". It's an agreement without a vote, HoS, or FoS.

So what does this mean? I don't think this early in the game either of these tells mean that the players are definitively scummy, but it does bother me that they've decided to "lay low." Muffin somewhat mediates this in post 89 (though the OMGUS vote is ridiculous). He's otherwise struck me as participating, though I plan to keep an eye on him in case he tries to buddy/hedge in other places. foilist13, though, seems to have accidently stuck his foot in his mouth on a typo (my name, versus Gammagooey), and then tried to extract himself by, in my view, trying to sneak out of the spotlight. (This is more of a tone thing, I'm not sure I can notate it exactly.)

Did you miss the part where I said I couldn't prove or deduce that he was researching? It cannot be disproved either, and despite the fact that it is far from conclusive evidence, it is something to have somewhere in mind.

Isn't it clear that if you can't prove or disprove this, then it's a null tell? Not to mention that even if we could prove that he researched EVERY SINGLE player before starting play: I think that could easily be Townie play! So I don't know what foilist needs to keep in mind.

Finally, and this is speculative, foilist may have jumbled the names in the first place because any townie is interchangeable with any other townie if you're scum. (I do get a fairly townie read from Gammagooey at the moment.) He is lazily piling onto someone else's case (AlmasterGM), in such a lazy manner that he can't even be bothered to double check which townie he's going after. Not to mention that, unless I'm mistaken (please correct me if I am), foilist still has a vote on me because of this typo. Not in a big rush to correct his mistake.

Unvote

Vote: foilist13

This post, and post #455 (I'm not going to quote that one too because a) it was so recent, you can see it on this page i believe, and b) it's loooong!) both strike me as very townish. Mordy is going out of his way to scumhunt, and truly analyzing player's actions. I don't believe scum would go back to another player's games (multiple!) and analyze the use of particular words, and although I don't know if I completely follow or see the importance of the argument on the use of "benefit" & "benefit of the doubt", I appreciate the attempt at analysis & I just don't think he'd go into such depth as scum. If he

is

scum, I'd venture to say he's pretty good at it.

Also, the last paragraph quoted above was basically the same argument I made for foily being scum, only perhaps better-articulated than mine was This, in particular, was very well-put and partly what I was trying to get at in my post: "Finally, and this is speculative, foilist may have jumbled the names in the first place because any townie is interchangeable with any other townie if you're scum."

[PhaerieM]

Long post, incoming :

I would actually venture to say the biggest scumtell so far comes from Muffin who is "inclined to agree" nice and early so if the BW stays strong toward end of deadline, he can say "I said I agreed on p2!". It's an agreement without a vote, HoS, or FoS.

I said only "I'm inclined to agree" because I don't think Alamaster's behaviour has been ultra super omg scummy. I think his argument is ridiculous, but having a ridiculous argument does not a scum make.

And secondly... do you honestly think in a 12-player game, that a silly bandwagon from page 2 is going to stay nice and strong through to the end? I highly doubt it. If this game-day ends in fewer than 15 pages I will be greatly surprised.

Then again maybe you'd like this bandwagon to push through to a lynch real quick? Eager to test out your night kill?

What you got to say about that Pastry-boy? If you're inclined to agree, where's your bolded statement of where you stand?

FoS: Muffin

(<----There's mine )

My bolded statement aka my vote is currently on archaebob for a random vote. I will

unvote

since we're past that now.

I don't FoS because fossing is arbitrary and has no meaning. If you want to know what my opinions are though, I think that you're trying to be real cautious, saying things like "this game is moving nicely" and how you don't think a pressure vote is needed. You lambast me for not taking a stance yet all you can put up is a measly fos that has zero impact on the game? We call that hypocrisy where I come from and in my experience the only players who need to create or rely on double standards are scum.

I'm the kind of player who always likes everyone to be voting for someone, because it provides a clear and readable trail of whom each player's prime suspicions (real or fabricated) rest on. No going through and trying to decide which carries more weight: the toenail of suscpicion or the hair follicle of suspicion?

Earlier on you admit to not reading the thread carefully (scumtell) and now the double standards/hypocrisy.

I find this more compelling than Alamaster's misguided thoughts as to the behaviour of "all townies" and the responses thereto.

vote: chinaman

This post starts off ok, with at least somewhat logical arguments in the first two paragraphs, but this:

Then again maybe you'd like this bandwagon to push through to a lynch real quick? Eager to test out your night kill?

just strikes me as unnecessarily aggressive, like maybe he didn't think he was convincing enough, and so decided to push back a little harder.

Also:

Earlier on you admit to not reading the thread carefully (scumtell) and now the double standards/hypocrisy.

I find this more compelling than Alamaster's misguided thoughts as to the behaviour of "all townies" and the responses thereto.

I haven't read everything yet, so I don't know, but did Muffin also express concern/vote over Foilist's

much

more obvious example of this scumtell he speaks of (not reading the thread carefully)? Because he certainly jumped on Chinaman for it. If he did not come down equally on foilist for the same thing (only even worse!), I'm inclined to think that he only jumped on Chinaman for it because Chinaman was questioning him, not because he really thought he was scum for it.



And actually, reading back, Muffin's "I'm inclined to agree with MordyS & spyreX, actually" was a comment in direct response to these two quotes:

You missed something important. It wasn't die. It was killed.

Now, semantics blah blah but - why would one assume killed over lynched?

There's one reason that sure springs to mind. Guess what it is?

Unvote, Vote: AlmasterGM

and

Ok, seriously - how did you know I had a Pikachu avatar when I haven't made any posts in the thread yet? The fact that you posses this information means you went and looked at past games of the other players in this game, which is an extremely stretchy move as town when you're only on page one. NOBODY does that. I think it's more likely that you're scum scoping out your victims so you know how to avoid their scumhunting techniques.

Serious Vote: Gammagooey Who said the RVS wasn't useful?

Researching fellow players before you start playing is absolutely not scummy. Making a serious vote based on it is bizarre, and sounds like railroading the newbie. Also, I find early bandwagons help clarify people's positions, so this couples a good reason (your quote above), with a good strategy (clarifying positions thru bandwagoning). As such:

Vote: AlmasterGM

Now, both of these posts were

votes

on Almaster, and for two different reasons! The whole point of each of those posts was not just disagreeing with Almaster, but disagreeing and saying he was

scummy

for his actions/opinions. So, if you say you are inclined to agree with those guys, wouldn't you thus be saying that you also think Almaster is scummy, for those two separate reasons given?

How does that then equate to:

I said only "I'm inclined to agree" because I don't think Alamaster's behaviour has been ultra super omg scummy. I think his argument is ridiculous, but having a ridiculous argument does not a scum make.

???

This sounds to me like he was trying to quietly agree with spyrex and mordyS without actually

voting

for or putting any extra pressure on Almaster (who could very well be his scumbuddy) and when he was called on it by Chinaman, jumped all over him for "not reading the thread carefully (scumtell)", while completely ignoring the ongoing debate over whether foilist is scum for the very same thing. He also tries to defend his "inclined to agree" statement by saying he doesn't think Almaster is scum at all, even though in order to be inclined to agree with the above quoted posts, you would pretty much

need

to think that Almaster is scum.

I also think Chinaman is town, mostly due to him calling out Muffin & this:

Ok, so AGM is the one who started it all and now has a wagon on him correct?

damn, a vote count would be nice right about now...but its friday....why am i on the computer?....anyway....

Ok, so we have AGM making a big deal out of what I personally feel is a null tell yes? Then we have a LOT of people hammering him for it. If you read what I wrote about how I feel about RVS and what it takes to get out of it, you'll note that I feel it takes someone doing something slightly scummy, no? I will now add that most the time in my opinion (which is Gold btw) that the person doing something slightly scummy is usually town, and the person jumping on it is usually scum. SO, the next question is who did the slightly scummy thing first? Was it Gooey for looking up games before hand and AGM catching that as slightly scummy or was it AGM blowing something out of proportion and Mordy or S...something that caught AGM's slightly scummy thing and blowing THAT out of proportion.

I will say that I don't know which it is right now, but I will say that Gooey is more townie in my book atm for his p47. Grats Goo...you're not my target today.

This post rings true to me (and I totally agree with the "the first person to do something scummy to take us out of the random phase generally isn't scum"), and speaks of true (albeit a bit drunken ) confusion at the events coming out of the random stage, and of genuinely trying to figure things out. Just my opinion.

So! In sum (and again, I haven't finished reading yet, there's just so much to go back & reread already!), my top scum reads are:

Foilist
Muffin/new guy
Almaster

I'd be happiest lynching Foilist or Muffin today at this point, but I wouldn't be against an Almaster lynch, especially because I agree with cruelty that he'd be the least costly mislynch. But I'm definitely more sure about Foilist and Muffin. I'm not going to place a vote right now since I haven't finished reading, but that's where I stand for now.

[PhaerieM]

You guys, this sounds good. Foil, peanut, and Almaster are a very probable scum-team, given everything that has happened.

You forgot the pastry.

[PhaerieM]

Sorry to be quoting all of these old been there, done that posts, but I wasn't here for the been there done that

I also don't buy the case against AGM. I think he genuinely thought he had a case when posting it. I don't think he was faking that or anything. I do think that it was blown out of proportion and he was attacked a bit hard about it. That was good though since it quickly brought us out of the RVS.

What i dislike the most thus far....
Bob's bandwagon vote on to AGM. It was with terrible reasoning (A 1 liner, imagine that), and just looked scummy to me. He claims that AGM just can't believe that is a good case, thus votes him. Generally, this can be a good reason for a vote. The only problem is, he is voting for someone not pushing a good case on post 40!

Unvote, Vote archaebob

If it was just the first post of AGM that we were discussing, I would probably agree with you, as despite him being wrong, he might have thought he had something at the time.

The problem is that in the post after it, despite a short explanation by myself and having several people tell him that his logic is flawed, he not only continues to push on the case, but goes after Mordy for disagreeing with him based Mordy's explanation for why he doesn't think it would be scummy, which honestly seems like more of a mafia theory argument on what is a good/bad play than a defense or an accusation.

It seems to me that Almaster was trying to get people to follow him with no actual case behind his words, and I'm leaving my vote on him until I get an explanation.

Good logic, totally agree (Almaster even had a post that went along the lines of "Your argument is all well and good, but I still think you're scum... however, there are bigger fish to fry..." If that's not a scumtastic post, I don't know what is. Saying you understand the person's argument, but it doesn't matter, you're sticking with your case. Then, "Oh but there are bigger fish to fry now, and so I's gonna back away slowly then slink off to fight another day.").

Gamma = town for me.

So, that's Mordy, Gamma, and to a *slightly* lesser extent, Chinaman, in my town bucket.

[PhaerieM]

Post # 125, where foilist attacks and votes for Muffin, is giving me pause... I still have a healthy suspicion of foilist, but I think Muffin should be the lynch for the day. For now.

[PhaerieM]

On to others:

peanutman's first post of note is #139, in which he votes archaebob. This post did not jump out as scummy to me at all... reading on..

[PhaerieM]

Okay, I give up. What does "ISO" mean?

Also, I think Papa mentioned this earlier, but doesn't "open" mean that the list of roles in the game is given to us? I don't see that anywhere for this game.

[PhaerieM]

This I read as basically saying that yes, you're applying the logic retroactively. Which is a direct contradiction to your previous post.

It's called a hypothetical - you should be familiar with the concept seeing as you were just talking about it. In any case, you've ignored the actual point -

Why does it matter if the logic is applied retroactively?

It doesn't make it any less true. All you seem to be doing here is trying to make legitimate scumhunting go away based on some technicality. This isn't a criminal trial where the evidence needs to pass a bunch of rules and guilt needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt - it's a game of mafia.

Almaster, were you or were you not "applying the logic retroactively"? This is just a bunch of hopping around avoiding the question.

[PhaerieM]

Two reasons. One because I'm not fully caught up and two because I wasn't interested in pressuring him when I made that case.

I'm more interested in seeing if foilist13 can put my mind at ease than I am in pushing him and seeing if he cracks.

Ultimately, he's probably going to be my lynch recommendation because I'm not really comfortable having a player that I would allow this much scumminess as town hanging around.

That is, of course, unless I find someone scummier.

Like Muffin? Archaebob, why did you leave muffin out of the list that mordy referenced as all possibly being connected as scum? It was foilist, muffin, peanut, and almaster. You mentioned this as good, but in asking people to say who they thought was the least likely/least costly as a mslynch you left out muffin from that list.

[PhaerieM]

Q: You suck at this game.
A: Fine. I still know how to use my role.

..... If you truly are the doctor, this is NOT how to use your role. By your ridiculous behavior and bringing so much attention to yourself today, you've just *guaranteed* that you will *never* be able to use your night ability! Either we will lynch you today, you will be NKed as Doc, or you will be RBed as doc. How in the world is that using your role???

If you *are* the doc, I'm going to be livid.

[PhaerieM]

Vote Count:
AlmasterGM (4) MordyS, Gammagooey, SpyreX, foilist13
foilist13 (1) cruelty
Archaebob (1) AlmasterGM
Cruelty (1) Papa Zito

Note Voting (4) Sanjay, Muffin, archaebob, PhaerieM, peanutman


I think this vote counts correct..only peaunt unvoted..i was reading and forgetting to be looking for votes...err i mean I am thy mod and thus infallible.

Aww. Mod is cute ... and infallible.

& I don't blame you for getting distracted what with the flurry of posts recently (and the general densitude <word?> of the thread)!!

[PhaerieM]

I have no issues with that, especially since I think he's lying. If he's telling the truth he's either going to be night killed or role blocked depending on whether or not they have a roleblocker. If he's lying then we've caught scum and all will be well with him.

So yes. I still think we should lynch him.

Perhaps this isn't clear enough to everybody. The fact that AGM-doc would either be night killed or role blocked DOES NOT mean he is useless, and that we might as well just lynch him now. By leaving him alive, we are forcing the mafia to either use one of their NKs or their roleblocker to take care of the situation. This means they can't NK or roleblock somebody else in the town. If we just kill him, because we think he's "useless", then we are allowing the scumteam to off the doctor without needing to expend any of their night actions. This is anti-town.

Again, this is IF almaster is actually doc. I don't know how any of us can be sure enough of his being SO much more likely to be scum than foilist, that we feel comfortable ignoring this strategic element completely.

Sorry you guys, for not posting as much lately. Honestly, I'm finding it really hard to keep up with and follow the thread due to the sheer mass of it & the super-long posts. At this point, although I feel much more sure about Muffin/Muffin's replacement being scum than anyone else, it looks as though everyone is pretty much set on either Almaster or Foilist as the lynch. I do encourage you to read my case on Muffin if you don't remember it, but I have a feeling today is just not the day for that. Unfortunately. The people that I have the next most suspicion of are Foilist & Almaster.

Archaebob, in regards to the above (and I admit that what you posted above did help me to see another point of view than my own, which up to this point has been "Well, he's going to get killed or RB'ed anyway if he is doc, so his powers as Doc are essentially null & void; add to that the fact that he's pretty scummy and likely to not be doc at all, and we should probably just go ahead and lynch him today"), the only problem that I have with what you're saying is this: What happens tomorrow? If he *is* the doc, and the mafia doesn't have a roleblocker, then they kill him Night 1... Okay. We shake our fists at him for being so reckless with the role, we find others that we're suspicious of, and we move on. BUT let's say he either *is* scum (and so obviously wouldn't be NKed), OR he's the doc and they *do* have a roleblocker? They would most probably use the roleblock on him & kill someone else that night, because that allows them to get rid of a townie AND set up a probable mislynch for Day 2, rather than just getting rid of the doc & leaving it more likely that one of theirs will be lynched day 2. Because I think what happens Day 2, if Almaster is still alive, is there are going to be a lot of people who think he's scum bc he wasn't killed. There's going to be a huge debate over whether that shows he is scummy or was just roleblocked. So he very well may end up being the lynch Day 2, in which case we were just prolonging the inevitable by not lynching him Day 1.

So. I'm kind of confused on which one to vote. We may be just lynching someone else only to lynch Almaster tomorrow, however...

If we lynch Almaster today, whether he's scum or not, then the mafia will be able to lynch a definite townie on Night 1, and will be able to use their roleblock on someone else (if they have one), albeit a bit of a shot in the dark for them, it's still an advantage. However, if we lynch someone else today, someone we think is scum, then they have to either use a lynch or a roleblock on Almaster (assuming town). So if it's somewhat likely that Almaster gets lynched before day 2 anyway, at least we're leaving the *other* kill in *our* hands, not theirs:

1. We lynch Almaster Day 1, scum kills definite townie Night 1

or

2. We lynch someone else that has a good chance of being scum Day 1, they kill Almaster Night 1

or

3. We lynch someone else that has a good chance of being scum Day 1, and they RB Almaster-as-doc/do nothing to Almaster-as-scum, and scum kill a definite townie Night 1

So in two of those scenarios, a definite townie gets killed, but it might be worth playing for the second scenario in which we have more control.

Am I making any sense at all? lol

So I guess in my roundabout way, I've come to the conclusion that we should lynch someone besides Almaster today, giving us more control over who dies going into these next couple of days/nights. I would love for it to be Muffin/replacement, but I realize that's unlikely.

When the time comes, I will vote Foilist if necessary, but I again ask that you all take a look at my case on Muffin/read him in isolation, & give it some real thought before deciding on a lynch.

Any feedback on the case on him would be appreciated.

[PhaerieM]

lol archaebob stoled my thunder with his list of possibilities. A lot happened while I was writing!

[PhaerieM]

To everyone:

Please don't speak about the replacements lurking anymore, unless you plan on responding to their posts. After awhile, it's like talking to a brick wall here. This game is about the least replacement-friendly I've ever seen. It's not just the massive posts, but the fact that *everyone* has tunnel vision in this game, and ignore anything that doesn't have to do with themselves, or foilist/almaster.

It's not just archaebob, it's everyone, but since archaebob has taken it upon himself to act as leader of the game, holding people accountable for posting/responding to things, I find it funny that he refuses to answer direct questions or respond to posts unless they have to do with AGM/foilist.

Sorry if it comes off a bit harsh, but even with posting every day since replacing in, and asking for feedback, my posts get completely lost in the torrent of what is becoming the white noise of the thread. So when I see people saying "Where have you been?" or "the replacements are lurking", it makes me want to throw up my hands.

[PhaerieM]

Sorry you guys, I got a bit frustrated as you can tell from my last post, and kind of checked out for a few days. I shouldn't have done that, and especially so close to the deadline. I'm very happy to see that there is at least a tiny bit of momentum on my Muffin case, and therefore will vote him. As I stated before, I was/am in the same boat as Papa, I don't feel AGM or Foilist are the right lynch today, but would vote for Foilist if it comes down to those two. Now that it looks as if some of you are taking my muffin case seriously, I will happily vote for the person I truly want to be lynched.

Give me a bit to catch up on the last few days, and I'll see if I have anything more to add.

vote: Sociopath

[PhaerieM]

Sociopath has posted more recently (Nov 17, 2009 6:05 pm) than AlmasterGM (Nov 16, 2009 5:37 pm), if we're talking about lurking close to the deadline.

Sociopath has posted nothing by way of content at all since he replaced in. Unless I'm mistaken, his only posts have been saying how he's reading up. Not so with AGM. Although he apparently hasn't posted in a few days, he's posted plenty throughout the course of the game. That said, sociopath lurking is not the reason I'm voting for sociopath, it's due to Muffin's actions.

[PhaerieM]

Wow, awesome. I really didn't think there was much of a chance in hell you guys would switch to Muffin today. Now let's just hope I'm right!

[PhaerieM]

Plus it'll be exciting to see what PhaerieM does once we take away her favorite candidate.

Yeah, I *have* pretty much been set on him since near the beginning. I think either way he flips will give us info, and whoever the night kill is will do the same.

[PhaerieM]

Now we're cookin.

Unofficial:
AlmasterGM (1)foilist13,
foilist13 (5) cruelty, archaebob, AlmasterGM, peanutman, Gammagooey
SocioPath (5) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS

Not Voting (1) SocioPath


Can't do a wagon in one day my ass.

Tee hee. I'm positively giddy.

[PhaerieM]

I knew archaebob was gonna yell at us "I leave you guys alone for a few hours & all hell breaks loose!" lol. The quickness does worry me a little, but hey, I've been asking for it almost since I replaced in, I guess I can't complain about how quickly you guys jumped on. I just hope I'm right.

Foilist is still an okay lynch candidate, but not my first choice certainly. I think that was the case for many people. Foilist wasn't their first choice, but was their choice if it came down to AGM/foilist. I think enough people realized "Hey, if I'm not happy with my vote, and am just voting the lesser of two evils, and I see all of these other people saying the exact same thing, why can't we all just change our vote?", making it not just inevitabe that it's either agm/foilist. I think that was drilled into our heads for so long that it didn't seem realistic for anyone else to get enough votes.

Oh, and if Muffin/socio *does* flip scum, I think we need to take a long hard look at archaebob.

[PhaerieM]

Sociopath is a replacement. What justification is there for lynching him? You think his lurking is at all an indication of him being

mafia

?

I don't know about anyone else, but my reason has nothing to do with sociopath lurking, or even sociopath at all (seeing as he hasn't posted anything, I don't know how it could). In fact, it kind of gives me a little bit of pause that he's been lurking, because I would think that as scum, he would want to come in and at least *pretend* to be active, to keep the heat off of him. Although really, you guys were so dead set on discussing nothing but AGM/Foilist that he quite possibly could've thought he could just sit back & let one of them be lynched.

My reasons are entirely to do with Muffin. Although it's socio now, he still has the same role as Muffin did, the role that caused Muffin to act the way he did (I think).

[PhaerieM]

I guess that Bob being dead is a bit strong. However, like I said, the above if SP is scum I'm riding to the bank being town.

I think it's pretty close to being accurate. I'll address it more if it actually happens.

[PhaerieM]

Guess who's posting on site.

Guess who's posting on site.

Guess who's getting a lynchstick.

THATS WHO

STOP.

HAMMERTIME.

you are highly entertaining.

& i *totally* agree that this game will be pretty well in-hand if muffin turns scum.

[PhaerieM]

archaebob is mysteriously quiet tonight. is he just disgusted with us? or doesn't know how to play it now?

[PhaerieM]

And the town rejoices.

Crossing fingers that we're right. If we are, we're going to have soo much to go on tomorrow!

Wow, if socio hasn't been keeping up with the recent stuff, he's gonna be all "wuh?" about this.

If socio flips scum, I'd say we look at archaebob and *maybe* spyrex.

[PhaerieM]

Evil mod is evil for making us wait for the flip. Doesn't he know that he's not allowed to have a personal life right now?

omg, so excited to know!

[PhaerieM]

Why, do I sound like a total newb? No, I'm actually still playing my first ever game, on another site. We've been playing for almost 3 months! And I came onto this site a couple of weeks ago. I replaced into a game the day I joined, and we won (as town) that same day lol. I'm pleased to say my read was correct in that game. Then the next day, I replaced into this game & another (a newbie game). So I guess you could say I'm currently playing my 1st, 3rd and 4th games .

I'm always excited about a flip, but much moreso this time just due to the crazy circumstances surrounding this game, and the fact that you guys actually came around to my case on Muffin, which I'd given up hope on! So I guess I can say I'd be proud if he flips scum... & very sad if he flips town, but at least if we had to mislynch it was someone who contributed nothing to the game.

Hopefully we'll know soon!

[PhaerieM]

OMG that was so great. I cackled maniacally when I saw Muffin/socio flip mafia godfather. It was embarassing. Thank you, thank you, thank you, to you guys for finally coming around

My suspicion is firmly on archaebob right now for how he totally ignored my case on muffin & the questions that I asked him about muffin, and I don't like the fact that he got reeeeeallll quiet after you guys flipped to voting him. I think this was such a perfect outcome, because it's possile that this happened so quickly that the scum didn't have a chance to assess the situation & jump aboard the lynch.

My other bet for scum is Cruelty. I did not get a warm fuzzy feeling from his post at the top of this page (the "Huh, guess I wasn't around for the lynch today"). It sounded very self-conscious & freaking out a bit that things changed so quickly and he didn't have a chance to make any moves.

My bet is on archaebob and cruelty as the last two scum, for now. I'd like to hear what archae has to say about this whole thing.

High five, y'alls. Day 1= 100% win!

[PhaerieM]

Why are you guys suspicious of peanutman? He was, arguably, the person that made the lynch happen, if I remember correctly.

First, I made my case on the pastry. Some of you guys seemed to like it/agree with it, but only in passing. Then it was right back to the "inevitable" AGM vs Foilist lynch, and my attempts to discuss it further were generally ignored. Papa Zito finally noticed that something was up with Muffin/Socio (albeit for different reasons than my own), and said screw it, and voted him. Gamma came on & lambasted Papa for making a useless vote, saying we'd never be able to get enough people to switch in time. No one else commented (Sanjay unvoted, but I don't know if that was in response to Papa). The public perception seemed to be that it was just a silly thing for Papa to do. Then Peanut came on & said that he didn't really want to lynch Foilist/AGM either (and if he was scum, you'd think he would just go with the flow), unvoted, and said he was going to read up on Muffin/Socio again. I don't see any scum motivation to doing this, bussing your scumbuddy Day 1 when they're under comparatively very little pressure, & when it still looks inevitable that one of two *other* people are to be lynched.

He then even addresses me, asking if I'm going to come back and place my vote for Muffin since he knew I wanted Muffin lynched, telling me that there may be some momentum for it, and that it wouldn't necessarily be a vote for a "third party candidate" anymore. This would have been strangely helpful for scum to put themselves out there and say that about their scumbuddy, *asking* someone to come back and possibly vote him. I feel the momentum for Muffin's lynch came from peanutman himself, because he was the first person to take Papa's vote as a serious possibility. I just find it hard to believe that, if he was Muffin's scumbuddy, he would take just what Papa said & start vocally considering Muffin's lynch, even asking if someone who had a previous case on his scumbuddy was going to come back and vote. There was no real lynch pressure on Muffin until peanutman himself did that, so I just don't see the motivation. If there had already been 2 or 3 people who jumped on the Muffin bandwagon, then I'd be more suspicious of him. But as it was, I just don't see him doing that as scum. If he is scum, then I think he'd have to be an extremely paranoid scum, freaking out at papa's vote and deciding he needs to bus Muffin right away.

So I guess it really comes down to perception. If peanutman perceived that Papa's vote and subsequent posts, and Sanjay's unvote of Foilist were enough pressure on Muffin to make a lynch probable, then I can totally see peanut being scum & throwing his hat into the muffin ring to protect himself. However, I don't know how likely it is that he felt *that* pressured by those two things.

I will do a reread on him since a lot of you seem to have suspicion of him, but can you guys please elaborate on why you think he is scum, considering the events of late Day 1?

to cruelty: that last post of yours didn't really make very much sense to me.

MordyS: why the sudden change in playstyle at the end of the day 1, and today? You're very tight-lipped now. Is there a reason for it?

I really wish archaebob would come on and post.

[PhaerieM]

@Phaerie - I can see what you're saying about Peanutman, and I'm still not particularly inclined to vote him, but why don't you tell us who you do suspect?

Umm.. already did? Check my first post after Day 2 began. More in-depth later. Catch-up football to be watched.

[PhaerieM]

Yeah, PhaerieM's defense makes a lot of sense, which is why Peanut is at the bottom of my list. Gammagooey had basically the same reaction, so he's down there as well.

Actually, didn't Gamma have the *opposite* reaction? He came on & for several posts argued with you back and forth that this was a stupid idea, and there's no way there'll be enough people who switch in time to lynch Socio. How did he push forward the lynch?

Also, does anyone have any insight into possible reasons why spyrex was killed?

(btw, spyrex, we'll miss you!! Your posts were quite giggle-worthy, and seemed to be right on a lot of the time)

I know he was one of the ones on the quick socio wagon, but not one of the first few, and he kept saying how everyone on the socio wagon had to be town (lumping himself in with that), which was making me slightly suspicious of him. He just doesn't seem like the best NK out of the more 'confirmed town' people that came out of yesterday. I guess they were maybe too scared to NK me or Papa Zito for fear of doc protection? If so, good! Let's keep it that way!! But I was wondering if you guys thought there was any more info to be gained from spyrex's lynch than just fear of doc protection on others.

Response to archaebob will be in a separate post. lol.

[PhaerieM]

Yo cruelty, I'm still tripping up on the wording of that quote I brought up.

Was there someone else you wanted to see hammer Sociopath? I still don't see why your issue was that AlmasterGM got to hammer as if the hammer is first prize for most pro-town dude.

That's certainly what it seems like reading that quote; am I right?

Oh, yeah it was basically a shake of the head that one of the players I dislike most in the game got to pull the trigger.

If you didn't know that Muffin was scum (in fact, weren't filled with joy over his lynch, because it wasn't an 'ironclad' case <when is there ever on Day 1?? I thought it was pretty damned good>), then why would you care about AGM hammering? You stated you weren't sure at all that the Muffin bandwagon was right, so why would you care if AGM hammered?

If I'm not mistaken, your post came *before* Night 1, *before* Muffin flipped scum. Why would you say that then? If anything, I'd think you'd be *happy* that AGM hammered, if in your mind Muffin could easily turn up town, because that would put even more pressure on AGM, who you found scummiest.

I'm not as positive as I was about Muffin, but I'm getting more and more sure about cruelty being scum.

@ archaebob: lucky? You think yesterday's lynch was lucky? Maybe it was for some, who were just voting based on the fact that Socio was lurking hard & they didn't like the other 2 viable lynch candidates, but I was close to 100% sure to positive that Muffin was scum. Most of you agreed with my case on him, just didn't place a vote because there was so much other stuff going on. I find it crappy that you are belittling what a great outcome it was by saying how lucky we got that Muffin was scum. Just because it wasn't your own wagon, and there wasn't 30 pages of discussion about it doesn't mean it wasn't a valid case. Obviously it was a valid case, Muffin turned up scum.

I'm really not liking the way archaebob is trying to downplay the awesomeness that was yesterday: "What would we have learned if Muffin flipped town? Absolutely nothing." Are you kidding me? There's a *ton* of information to be gained from a quick lynch. It catches scum off guard.
I think that no matter *which* way Muffin flipped, the first few people on the Muffin wagon come out looking decidedly town. Think about it. If he was scum (which he was), there'd be no reason for them to start a wagon out of thin air on their *godfather* scumbuddy Day 1. If Muffin was town, then what would they have to gain from , again, starting a wagon out of thin air, on someone they *know* is going to be a mislynch, and they *know* there's going to be suspicion on the them the following day if he comes up town.

And why did you say "all of a sudden Phaerie votes Muffin/Socio, and all hell breaks loose" (paraphrasing)? I wasn't the first to vote Muffin, it was Papa Zito. A couple of other people had expressed interest in him as well after Papa Zito voted and before I did, so I'm just wondering why you chose my vote as the jumping off point to all hell breaking loose. Yes, I was the one first to be bring a viable case on Muffin, and made no secret that I wanted him to be the day 1 lynch , but unfortuanately nothing ever came of that. I wouldn't have minded being the first to vote, I wanted to vote for him, I just didn't think there'd be any support for it. But the fact is, Papa Zito did, and you pretty much ignored that in your post, instead saying it was my vote that started the ball rolling. Are you trying to focus it on me (who I'm guessing most everyone believes is town) so that people don't see Papa Zito as pretty much confirmed town too? I'm just not understanding the motivation.

I don't like the painting himself as a victim either, as Sanjay pointed out. Nor the sudden backing away from this game. I do *not* think it's a coincidence that he all of a sudden can't post like he did anymore. Especially when he gave the excuse of having to post give priority to another game he's in, so that we can't jump on him for posting in other parts of the site and not here. He was writing himself a free pass to lurk here but post freely in his other games.

So, yeah. Nothing's really changed for me since Day 2 started. My top two suspects are archaebob and cruelty. I'm not totally positive about either, but I'm getting there. I'll probably need to go back and reread them (as well as peanut!), but I'm just not looking forward to that daunting task Give me a little while to rise to the challenge!

I'm also curious about your theories a couple of you mentioned on Spyrex's kill (although I think fear of doc protection on me or Zito & the fact that spyrex has a good townie reputation are pretty good ideas to me), but I understand if you'd rather not say.

[PhaerieM]

Zito prepare to be unimpressed.

If you didn't know that Muffin was scum (in fact, weren't filled with joy over his lynch, because it wasn't an 'ironclad' case <when is there ever on Day 1?? I thought it was pretty damned good>), then why would you care about AGM hammering? You stated you weren't sure at all that the Muffin bandwagon was right, so why would you care if AGM hammered?

If I'm not mistaken, your post came *before* Night 1, *before* Muffin flipped scum. Why would you say that then? If anything, I'd think you'd be *happy* that AGM hammered, if in your mind Muffin could easily turn up town, because that would put even more pressure on AGM, who you found scummiest.

I'm not as positive as I was about Muffin, but I'm getting more and more sure about cruelty being scum.

Sigh, where's your vote then?

As I stated there and later in the post, I'm not sure about you being scum, and I'm actually more sure of Archaebob being scum than I am you. I like to be careful with my vote, and generally will only vote (outside of RVS) when I'm reasonably sure of one's scummitude.

You're reading far too much into what I said. I mean, I get that you guys love to read into the tiny little details and try to create glorious cases from them, but I feel like in this instance (seems to happen a lot on this site, I guess it's a flaw I should correct) you're making mountains out of molehills.

All I meant (and by all, I mean all) was that it aggravated me a little that one of the scummiest players in the game got to pull the trigger. That's it. I won't address this issue anymore.

Fair enough. This response doesn't strike me as particularly scummy.

Think about it. If he was scum (which he was), there'd be no reason for them to start a wagon out of thin air on their *godfather* scumbuddy Day 1. If Muffin was town, then what would they have to gain from , again, starting a wagon out of thin air, on someone they *know* is going to be a mislynch, and they *know* there's going to be suspicion on the them the following day if he comes up town.

On the surface of this I agree. Will note the WIFOM, though.

Yes it's WIFOM, but honestly everything in Mafia is WIFOM. Everything that you can say "scum wouldn't do that" about, you can also say "But aha, what if they did it for precisely the reason that they knew we'd think that?". The goal of Mafia (as town) is to take all of the data and make a decision about what scum would or wouldn't do in each particular situation based on what makes the most sense. Sure, we may be wrong, and the scum may be using our common sense to get one over on us, but we have to go with not only our instincts, but what is most likely. If we dismissed every argument as WIFOM, there would *be* no Mafia.

I don't like the painting himself as a victim either, as Sanjay pointed out.

I said that. Didn't quote it, but to respond to the lurking issue, not convinced but I'll let him defend himself. More interesting to me is his constant push for political capital (I think he even specifically mentioned in his last (at least, his last big) post) and the associations I make with a mindset perpetually concerned with that.

Duh, you're right obviously, sorry about that. I had it stuck in my head that Sanjay said that. The political capital thing is interesting to me as well, it seems that archaebob thrives on being in the middle of all that is going on in a game, on being the leader who sways and guides the town, discusses only the things that he tells us to discuss, etc. It's interesting that as soon as he *lost* that political capital, i.e. the power shift at the end of Day 1, he has just vanished from the game, as if all of the joy in the game went out of it for him now that he was no longer calling the shots. I think it's extremely important to him or his ego that he be the leader, and I think he felt like after the events of the end of day 1, he couldn't just simply reassume his place at the top of the town, the leader of discussion, and go on like normal, so I wonder if that has something to do with why he has stopped posting. That's certainly what it feels like, but I don't know what (if anything) that indicates about his alignment. It could just be an ego thing, and it's not fun for him anymore, or it could be that he doesn't know how to play it after his scumbuddy was outed and so quickly lynched, giving him no chance to game-plan and twist it around to his advantage, and making him look bad for not being ok with the Muffin lynch. His last several posts have seemed very flustered, so I'm I guess more inclined to go with this option. The third option is that he is town, & is simply telling the truth about being busy & unable to post. I find this one the hardest to swallow. I have never seen *anyone* post as much as he did on Day 1. I just find it hard to believe that his circumstances changed so drastically, so quickly, and at just the perfect moment of the Muffin bandwagon beginning.

I note that he never actually mentioned Muffin at all until his 29th post (3 weeks into the game). That said, I find it hard to believe that scum would lynch their godfather day 1 - he's correct when he says he assisted in widening the town's scope. I also find it interesting that although he can legitimately claim credit for assisting the lynch (or at least helping to get the ball rolling), he never actually voted.

This bothers me a tad, too. He said he would, but didn't end up having to due to AGM's hammer. He said it was due to him wanting to reread that he didn't vote at first, but I don't know. If he hadn't asked for a prod on me & implored me to come back & read the thread so that I could vote for Muffin if I still wanted to, then I would see his semi-jumping aboard the Muffin wagon as a bit scummy. But the fact that he did do that certainly gives me pause.

I find Cruelty extremely scummy, and to a lesser extent Peanutman, but obviously neither of them is going to be lynched,

Then

I'm much more comfortable with lynching Peanutman right nowbut I'm going to with hold my vote until I get my thoughts in order.

@Phaerie - I can see what you're saying about Peanutman, and I'm still not particularly inclined to vote him

Good catch.

His second-to-last post is fairly blatant WIFOM speculation about the NK:

In the beginning of the game MordyS said something about him being a very strong player by reputation, so maybe that had something to do with it. Also I think we can take from that that he was probably right about his town list. If I were scum I would not be quick to kill someone likely to defend me.

Don't really think I need to talk about this. Just a lot of unnecessary (and really unfounded) speculation about Spyrex. I will say that town and correct don't necessarily go hand in hand. It's illogical to conclude that because Spyrex was town he was therefore right about alignments.

I don't think he was trying to say that Sprex was correct in his opinions on other players' alignments just because spyrex was

town

. Rather, I think he meant that because spyrex was *NK'ed*, that makes it more likely that he was correct in his opinions. He's right in this sense: let's say Papa Zito, I, Sanjay or Peanutman is scum: at the end of Day 1, town spyrex posts several times that all of those people above are most likely town (I *believe* he included peanutman & sanjay in this) due to their votes on/agreeing with the bandwagon on Muffin. If one or more of us *is* scum, then it would be a little bit silly for us to want to NK the person who has just basically cleared us as town. I don't know if I fully agree with this, but I can certainly see where the argument comes from.

I still think foilist is slightly scummy, but I'm not as convinced as I was yesterday.

I'm not understanding your position on Foilist. Everything you've said in this post about Foilist leading up to the above comment was pointing out his scumminess. You said you thought he was pretty scummy on Day 1, but today he has been "interesting"... and you went on to point out the scummy things he's done today, so I'm not sure what has made you "not as convinced" as you were yesterday. You then go on to say that you'd be comfortable with his lynch even though you're not as convinced about him.

[PhaerieM]

MordyS's posts just got a lot scummier

[PhaerieM]

for a week?

vote: archaebob

I'll take the vote off if I am given any reason to stop suspecting him, but this is ridiculous.

[PhaerieM]

Sorry everyone, Ive had some RL issues come up. I will catch up & make a substantial post hopefully tomorrow.

[PhaerieM]

This thread needs a healthy sprinkling of Phaerie dust.

Aww. That's cute Although you

did

get my name wrong in your earlier post I am Batgirl! If I knew how to post pics then I would show you what I look like just so you know for sure... I'm Batgirl.

I'm really sorry you guys, I'm finding it really hard to post anything meaningful because I've missed so much. I've had a few issues come up IRL & thus have a *lot* less time to pore over posts & such. You know what would be *extremely* helpful? A Multi-quote button! Seriously, no Mafia site should come without one (I'm hoping maybe I'm just missing it & it's in some obv location that I've yet to notice). If there was one, you can bet you guys would have a manifesto from me sooner rather than later. It's just tough to remember little things you wanted to point out or respond to when you can only quote one thing at a time or have to open two windows of the site & go through the entire thread & copy/paste, put in quote tags for each section, etc.

I'm still very suspicious of Archaebob. I think he's made an effort to come back and play like he did yesterday (once there was sufficient pressure placed on him), but there are things that just don't ring true in what he's posting. I agree that he possibly had a meltdown yesterday when everyone flipped to Socio, and didn't quite know how to pick up the pieces when Day 2 started. HOWEVER: this recent flipping of his stance on Sanjay & Foilist (and by the way, he's been saying all day that he thinks sanjay is scum & in his 'sanjay-is-scum' scenario Foilist is scum too, but then he votes peanut while still continuing on with his sanjay-peanut case? Does he really think there are 3 scum left in a 12 person game with one scum dead?) has given me pause as it seems as if he's actually looking for scum & is ashamed to admit he changed his mind, but will do so in order to catch scum etc etc. It would seem a very townie changing of stance... but this could obviously be a scum move to make us think that as well. I wonder how experienced archae is as scum?

PEANUT: If you *are* the cop, & we don't lynch you or archae today, INVESTIGATE ARCHAEBOB TONIGHT!! Or if you think I'm scummy for asking that, investigate me, but THEN ARCHAEBOB. I was seriously hoping if we had a cop that he would investigate archae night 1, because he was the most vocal and influential all day, at least up until the end. It's dangerous to have players like that in the game without being reasonably sure of their alignment.

A couple of people asked why I said Mordy started looking scummy to me. There were a lot of logical inconsistencies & just plain wrong statements in that multi-post rant Mordy had before I said that, & they struck me as way off. Mordy was someone I'd been pretty convinced of as town before, but those posts really got me looking at him. I will have to go back & read them again in order to give details. Sorry, I just feel kind of lost with so much going on.

Sanjay: I can see where you're coming from with the "Well, what would phaerie-scum be expected to do when zito started the socio wagon, she coudn't very well go back on her stance from before"; this is true. However, why in the world would I have *adopted* that stance from before in the first place as scum? Muffin was free & clear, and you guys were all immersed in the foilist/agm wagon. I could've just gone right along with that, or one of the other fringe cases that was going on. Instead I made a case against the mafia godfather & asked *several* times for your input, asked *several* times for you guys to please go back and read my case & give it some thought. I'm proud of that case, & proud of that lynch. I was overjoyed when you guys finally started jumping on (albeit not for the right reasons, but the end result was the same).

So anyway, still suspicious of archae (investigate!!), need to go back & read Mordy, I'm really not sure about the cruelty/sanjay cases, and I am inclined to believe peanut's cop claim.

I guess that's it for now, if anyone has any questions, let me know. I'll make an effort to post a lot more than I have been, & I apologize again.

[PhaerieM]

Uh, think I missed a page. Or two. Sanjay, why am I a mystery?

[PhaerieM]

Uh, think I missed a page. Or two. Sanjay, why am I a mystery?

I guess I just don't understand women

.

lulz. and that's the way we like it

Basically, there are some great reasons to think you are town but a few good reasons to be suspicious. I'm just a little wary of you for being the only person suspicious of Muffin on the Muffin lynch.

Ok, stop and think about what you just said lol. That's a reason for you to be *more* suspicious of me? Shouldn't it be the other way around? I'm having a hard time discerning who is town from the bunch on the muffin wagon precisely because no one was actually suspicious of anything except lurking, or weren't even suspicious at all, but were just all "Hey, it's better than foil/agm". Papa I am pretty much certain of, since he's the one who began the actual wagon (well, the one that people listened to, unlike mine lol it does kind of burn me that I'd been telling you guys he was most likely scum ever since I replaced in, and although a few of you agreed with the case in passing, not one of you was willing to lynch him... then Papa says "Hey, I don't like our options, and um, socio's been lurking, so what the hellz" & everyone hops on like it's the greatest idea ever... sigh. But I'm not bitter!), but everyone else I'm not so sure of. I do agree with Mordy's asessment that at least one scum was *not* on that wagon (my money's on archaebob), but I'm guessing one was as well. Anyway, I don't see why me being the only one with a valid reason to vote Muffin would make you suspicious of me...

And I guess during twilight you made a kind of big show of being excited and being unsure how Muffin was going to flip, which is something I've done as scum so it made me go, hm...

Yeah... I'm kind of a dork I

was

super excited about the lynch. I was super fed up with you guys for not even paying attention to a valid case, and just posting mountains of crap about foil/agm, and so I take a sabbatical for a few days, only to come back & see that there's actually hope for my lynch of choice. Also, until I came to this site, I'd never had a chance to scumhunt. Then I won my first game that I replaced into here, but there were only 5 of us left when I replaced in & we won within a day of me replacing in. My read was right, but it was just a gut feeling. The other game I replaced into besides this one (in which I was NKed night 1), I built a case on someone that I thought was good, based on huge inconsistencies & illogical statements from the person in question, & by the time I realized I was probably wrong about him & unvoted, I'd caused too much damage & everyone lynched him anyway. So. My point? I know I had one... So I was as close to 100% sure as I could be on Muffin, & was super excited, giddy even, to see what I thought & *hoped* to be a scum flip. And yeah, I was excited that you stubborn folks actually changed your votes, & that I was getting my way Cuz I like getting my way.

Oh, and I could tell you that I would never be so over the top as scum, but you'd probably call that WIFOM.

And you are also a mystery because you haven't posted as much so it is harder to get a read on you.

Fair enough. I'll try to fix that, I promise. Although when I do post, it's generally pretty in depth, so that should help you get a better read on me.

[PhaerieM]

A couple of people asked why I said Mordy started looking scummy to me. There were a lot of logical inconsistencies & just plain wrong statements in that multi-post rant Mordy had before I said that, & they struck me as way off. Mordy was someone I'd been pretty convinced of as town before, but those posts really got me looking at him. I will have to go back & read them again in order to give details. Sorry, I just feel kind of lost with so much going on.

Please follow up on this ASAP and don't let it linger. Unspecified accusations ("logical inconsistencies & just plain wrong statements") is scummy if not backed up with examples. (Scummy because it's casting suspicion on a player, but without giving them a chance to respond, or other people a chance to evaluate your case.)

Understood, and totally agree. My boyfriend will be here any minute & we have some hockeys to watch, but I will try to go back to those posts by tomorrow & put into words what was scummy to me.

Oh btw, is that Alice in Wonderland in your avvy?

[PhaerieM]

Here was the vote at the end of yesterday:

FinalVote Count:
foilist13 (2) cruelty, archaebob
SocioPath (7) Papa Zito, PhaerieM, Sanjay, SpyreX, MordyS, foilist13, AlmasterGM

Not Voting (3) SocioPath, peanutman, Gammagooey

If the scum team is Sanjay, myself and SocioPath, that means that if all three of us had voted for foilist13 instead, he would be at 5 votes and SocioPath would only be at 4. Foilist13 would have been the lynch of the day. For Sanjay + myself to be scum, you have to believe that we both abandoned otherwise decent townie wagons to wagon our Godfather together. This is another reason why I think only one scum bussed SocioPath are the most: The numbers don't work for two scum to bus him. There was a perfectly good other lynch that could've been pushed. It really only makes sense if at most there was one scum on the wagon.

This post is ignoring the fact that *both* peanutman and gammagooey had stated their intentions to hammer Socio before the deadline. So yes, as it actually stood at the end of the day, if two people on Socio's wagon (and one not voting) had jumped over/stayed on Foilist's wagon, Foilist would have been the lynch. However, that's not even a valid point because had you and Sanjay not been voting Socio, 2 others would be voting Socio by deadline.

Also, Socio was nowhere to be found & you couldn't count on him showing up to vote how you wanted him to.

[PhaerieM]

Oh and it wouldn't be 5-4 anyway, even if you guys did move over to Foilist/Socio voted for foilist. It would be 5-5. Remember, Socio wasn't on the socio wagon

[PhaerieM]

Honestly, you guys, just keeping up with the new posts in this thread is taking up all my time that I have to spend on Mafia. Also, archaebob, you keep asking where I am, yet I've been posting & you never respond to the things I say (also: it's been one day since I've posted). Yet you expect everyone to respond to *your* arguments constantly.

Also I didn't want to post about new things until I was able to go back & look at the MordyS posts I pointed out as scummy last week. He's right that he deserves details, and I didn't want to seem like I was ignoring that. You keep saying you want input from me on you thinking MordyS is scum, but I thought MordyS was scummy a week ago, long before you did. Your arguments are sometimes right on, and sometimes ridiculous (and if I had a goddamn multi quote button then responding to everyone's dozens & dozens of posts that I want to respond to would be sooo much easier!!), and you've contradicted yourself many times... but so has Mordy. Like, a lot. You both have had serious attitude changes and issues Day 2, and you both have said extremely scummy things. The only difference is that I was suspicious of you since Day 1, and only became suspicious of Mordy Day 2 after that rant I speak of. Mordy has had the biggest day to day attitude shift I've ever seen in my albeit small experience with mafia.

So the problem is, I think you're both scummy. It's unlikely that you are both scum, but it's not impossible. If we lynch one of you & that one of you flips scum, then the other is probably thinking they're going to be cleared town. Either way, I'm pretty positive one of you is scum. I really wish I had more time right now to go *much* more in depth in rereading. Like I said, it takes all my time just to keep up with the pages per day that this thread puts out. I will come back on asap to give my read of mordy's (first of many, now, it would appear) rant & give more of my opinion of what's going on, and point out some really ridiculous contradictions that BOTH of you have made in your posts recently. For now, it'll have to wait though. So yes, I will give you my input, archaebob, but in the meantime it might be good for you to take your own advice and comment on things besides posts regarding your recent tunnel.

In other news: congrats to peanutman and AGM for actually getting a chance to participate in scumhunting today (rather than being on the defense), and posting a lot of intelligent , well thought-out things, some of which I was thinking but didn't get a chance to say. This actually surprised me from both of you, given Day 1 & part of day 2 for peanut, but I guess it goes to show how much more helpful and wise someone can be when the pressure is loosened a bit.

[PhaerieM]

unvote: archaebob

I'm not ready to see a lynch yet, and with mordy ready to hammer, I don't feel right leaving my vote on right now until I really have a chance to decide. I'm fine with archaebob still claiming at l-2, but I don't want to see him claim then get hammered right away.

To cruelty: AGM hasnt contributed much in the last couple of days, but what he has contributed over this game day has been well thought out and helpful, I think, which is a far cry from his play yesterday while under attack.

[PhaerieM]

Seriously Mordy?? He said Friday! From the very beginning he said Friday! You couldn't wait for him for one day? And now I'm left to wonder if scum would do something so *amazingly* stupid & reckless & paint a huge target on their back that way.

You know what? Either way, you are dangerous and horrible for the town. As town or scum.

vote: MordyS[/b[

[PhaerieM]

grr.

vote: MordyS

Sanjay, I don't know what the hell to think. It would be suicide for you to do what you did as Mordy's scumbuddy. Let's hope someone investigated you overnight, because I just don't get why you did that.

[PhaerieM]

Hmm... very interesting. I was pretty sure based on Day 1 that he was town. Day 2 made me a tiny bit suspicious of him, but not much. It goes to show that just because someone makes logical arguments, it doesn't mean he's town. Peanut, what was your reasoning behind investigating gammagooey?

So we have today, and then one more day before lylo. So after lynching Gamma, we have two chances to catch the last scum. A reread is definitely in order.

[PhaerieM]

Peanut's right, I don't see a reason for there to be a godfather and no cop in this game when his whole ability revolves around hiding from the cop. And I *kind* of see where you're coming from with the no lynch, Sanjay, but I think that's only a good idea if we really aren't too sure between Peanut and Gamma. Peanut *could* be lying, he could've given the innocent result on AGM knowing he was innocent, & was hoping either for no counterclaim or to out the real doctor, but for whatever reason (beyond the godfather thing), I believe him. And Gamma's defense post seemed um.. a tad panicky & forced. I wasn't buying it.

Peanut, if you are the cop, *great* job with your investigation choice. You're right that I can see Gamma just coasting his way to the end game without an investigation, & no one being interested in lynching or even questioning him. Good job for not listening to any of us fools.

MordyS, seriously? No mention of your archaebob debacle?

[PhaerieM]

I guess that's it, then. I just don't see it likely, even if we just went along with Sanjay's suggestion to no-lynch & there had been no discussion about anything at all besides that, that peanut would either a. survive the night, or b. survive without being roleblocked.

I'm reading over gamma's posts in iso (it's funny how he's disappeared now lol), & the only thing I've come up with so far is that he hasn't been afraid to bus Muffin. The only times he mentioned him were negatively (although he didn't put a *ton* of pressure on him like he did for AGM & Peanut), so we need to be aware of that while looking for his other scumbuddy.

Although I hate to let Mordy off the hook,

Unvote: Mordy, Vote: Gammagooey.

This was the shortest day ever. I'm going to use the night period to look over Gamma's posts some more & everyone else's as they relate to Gamma (this is assuming Peanut is telling the truth, which I'm pretty confident he is. Sanjay is right in asking Gamma why in the world he thought that the scum would be worried about a town roleblocker. I've never seen one of those in a game. Again, great job Peanut! I've really liked your play since the pressure has been lessened on you, & I'll be sad to see you go.). I hope everyone will do the same, & then we should have a good bit of info/speculation to get the day started tomorrow.

Oh, there was something Archae said before he died that I wanted to ask you guys about, let me see if I can find it.

[PhaerieM]

I'm waiting for Gamma's flip before I go read things. That said peanut=cop Gamma=scum seems way more plausible than the other way around.

We probably should wait for PhaerieM's go ahead too, since yesterday we sort of... didn't.

Well, if she were around more...

Bite your tongue, sir! I was around plenty at the end of the day yesterday, & had made my feelings known that I didn't want archaebob to be lynched before at least Friday night. And I've been around constantly since today started, kthx. Hmph!

[PhaerieM]

Yeah, he did say he would hammer the following day, but I'm guessing he was hoping for the "voice of reason", i.e. archaebob and maybe others, to swoop in and turn everyone away from the lynch so he wouldn't have to. Soo glad that didn't happen.

@ Papa:

[PhaerieM]

I think there might've been another post that struck me as odd, too, but this is the one I wanted to ask everyone about:

oh, well ok then.

Sanjay, I thought I was hammered with Mordy's vote. That's why I said that.

And it is entirely ridiculous for you to pretend like you thought I had "given up", or that I would still have "given up" upon realizing that I wasn't actually hammered. If you have no reason to lie, then don't lie. But wait, you still do, because everything you say is still being read by the town, and your survival depends on convincing the town that this was actually what happened.

Out of respect for the integrity of this game, I'm going to discontinue this line of conversation, as it puts Sanjay's win condition at odds with RL stuff, and that isn't fair.

What do you guys think he meant by the "Out of respect for the integrity of this game, I'm going to discontinue this line of conversation, as it puts Sanjay's win condition at odds with RL stuff, and that isn't fair."?? It was really confusing. What RL stuff is he talking about? Integrity of the game? Does anyone have any idea what this was about?

[PhaerieM]

What do you guys think he meant by the "Out of respect for the integrity of this game, I'm going to discontinue this line of conversation, as it puts Sanjay's win condition at odds with RL stuff, and that isn't fair."?? It was really confusing. What RL stuff is he talking about? Integrity of the game? Does anyone have any idea what this was about?

Not a clue what that meant. I remember that niggled something at the time because he implies he knows what Sanjay's win condition is but obviously that's not the case.

Yeah me too, I was thinking "Is he admitting to being scum & saying Sanjay is his buddy?" Obviously that's not true, though...

[PhaerieM]

PhaerieM, what do you want to see happen before we end the day?

Didn't I hammer? I thought I was the last vote...

Well, either way, I guess there's not really much to be done before tomorrow? You said we shouldn't really be posting much analysis, so that the scum don't have much to go on (although, I think it's pretty clear they'll be killing peanut & not anyone else, so I don't think us analyzing anything would be detrimental to us insofar as helping the scum determine their nightkill... well, I suppose they could have a roleblocker... who might be Gooey! lol I just thought of that, maybe he was telling the truth about being a roleblocker lolol), so... I dunno, I'm not really sure if there's anything else that needs to be said. I guess we could get people's thoughts on Mordy. Sanjay, did you vote for archaebob with Mordy with the thought that Mordy was town? I'm assuming you did... has your opinion on Mordy changed in light of Archae's flip? I understand if you don't want to answer this today.

Hmm, well the possibility of them having a roleblocker (who isn't Gamma) makes me a bit afraid of getting nightkilled, so if you guys think it's okay for me to do this, I'm going to try to read through the rest of Gamma's posts quickly & let you guys know my thoughts before the lynch scene so that you guys have my opinion before it's too late. Let me know if you think that's a good idea or not, & if so, should I unvote until I've been able to give my opinions?

[PhaerieM]

Wait a minute... If Peanut is telling the truth, there *couldn't* be a roleblocker, right? Because they would have killed AGM & roleblocked Peanut... or killed Peanut & roleblocked AGM (more likely). So that means there isn't one, right? As long as Peanut is really the cop...

[PhaerieM]

Oh guys I just realized something about Gammagooey!

How come he knew AlmasterGM had a Pikachu avatar before AlmasterGM even posted? It seems to me like he looked at past games of the other players in this game, which is an extremely sketchy move as town when you are only on page one. NOBODY does that. I think it's more likely that as scum he was scoping out his victims so he could avoid their scumhunting techniques.

If only someone had pointed that out day one, we could have lynched him two days ago.

lol, oh Sanjay, you're quite silly . Seriously, though, I'd be willing to bet that gamma was telling the truth about the pikachu thing, even with being scum I don't think he went & checked out everyone's games beforehand. He was probably even more indignant than he would be as town when alamaster attacked him because he was afraid he was going to be found out as scum for an idiotic reason lol. We'll have to ask him when the game is over. It'd be funny if agm was righ, though.

I'm not at all sure about who is the last scum. The things you guys bring up about cruelty are pretty damning, I'll need to read him in iso, as well as Mordy & Sanjay. I'm not really sure about Mordy, & much as I would like to policy lynch him for the archaebob thing, we don't really have the luxury of a policy lynch at this point in the game, so I'd like to be damn sure before voting. I'm not really feeling like foilist is scum, & Papa I'm pretty sure is town, too. Sanjay is just impossible to get a read on for me, but I *want* him to be town! He's really fun to play with. Sigh. I guess it's time for more reading, no? But at this point, for me it's between Mordy & cruelty, with a bit of a question mark on sanjay (sanjay, if you're scum, you've done an incredible job).

And Mordy, I'm not sure what you mean about scum pairs coordinating votes. Wouldn't scum *not* want to be voting for the same person?

[PhaerieM]

Sorry you guys, I've had a lot of pre-christmas stuff going on, & haven't had a chance to devote much time to rereading. Hopefully tomorrow won't be so crazy.

I'm pretty positive cruelty will be the lynch for the day. There is no one else who looks scummier to more people. I'm content with that, but I don't want to rush lynch either, & hope we don't end the day *too* quickly. I think we should go with who we want lynched today, & then "no lynch" tomorrow i we're wrong. Today we have a clear-cut suspect, there's no reason not to go after him. Tomorrow (if there is a tomorrow) will be a lot less clear, and we're going to need scum-help to narrow it down! I guess it doesn't really matter either way we do it (lynch cruelty, then no lynch, or no lynch, get a NK, lynch cruelty), but that's the way I'd prefer I guess.

Oh, and I'm not trying to be absent, but I do have a lot going on at the moment & also, you guys think someone's absent if they haven't posted in 24 hours. I'm definitely still getting used to that