Open 164 - Bird 7P (Over) before 836

[VP Baltar]

Even greater news!

Unvote, Vote:brothernature

Scum found!

[VP Baltar]

That's an ironic request.

Nitpicking and trying to pass it off as scumhunting
Inflating his own self-importance
Showing unnecessary hesitance to vote hiphop even though he's been allegedly going after him "aggressively".

Far Cry is a likely partner.

[VP Baltar]

I felt he was scum at first, but then more of a noob town feel came. I think people are making mountains out of molehills with some of the stuff because it's easy to mob him when it's popular. Your "gambit" thing is especially ridiculous.

[VP Baltar]

I think it's a stupid argument you are making because the game has to start somewhere, whether those accusations are great or not.

However, the point that porkchop makes about about his thoughts on random voting changing to suit him is a much stronger point and somethign I do think is actually scummy.

[VP Baltar]

If there's one thing I agree with hiphop on, it's that activity is good. As long as my nitpicking, or bitching, as hohum prefers to call it, creates activity, I'm happy.

Translation: As long as I look busy, people have no reason to question if I'm actually trying to find scum or not.

Please show me where I'm "inflating my own self-importance." I don't recall ever doing this.

No problem!

These two can't seem to comprehend what a RVS is. They do seem to be displaying the usual paranoia that marks a townie, even if it is a bit early. As hohum said, I smell newbie townies...

OneGunman. There's this thing called the newbie queue. Try it sometime.

Zwet, unless your going to do anything besides babble mindless crap, then shut up. Please. And for the second effing time, don't effing capitalize the first gawd-dang letter of my name.

Also, a word of advice to you, OGM, start in the Newbie Queue instead of jumping into a different Queue for your first game.

et cetera. From someone who doesn't have very many games on the site, you're certainly acting a bit big for your britches here.

I haven't yet had a chance to play as all the roles yet, so I haven't really developed a playstyle for each.

I don't see what this has to do with anything.

re: your "aggressiveness"--Don't put it on others, you clearly referred to yourself as aggressive. I even have a quote!

And it's not my fault that I'm naturally aggressive, if that's what you meant by "flamy"

But I suppose that is twisting your words.

Also, thought I should mention this, I'm starting another game now, so my participation in this one might decrease a bit.

Translation: I'm coming under suspicion, so I'm going to lurk and hope people forget about me.

More brothernature votes.

[VP Baltar]

@Baltar: Thoughts on hohum/Brothernature exchange?

I'm anxiously waiting to hear more from hohum for now. I'd like him to comment on the points I made.

I'll reply to brothernature in a bit when I get some free time this morning.

[VP Baltar]

There's not much major scumhunting to be down in the early pages of a game, so rather than lurk until like page 8, like hohum, I prefer to do something.

Well, I think I produced a satisfactory case on you in 5 pages, so I don't understand this at all. Also, nice try to deflect attention toward hohum.

Maybe I'm an alt. Maybe I'm not >.>

Somehow I strongly doubt that. And if you are, that's all the more reason to be killing you right now. What to claim you are?

Some players play differently when they are certain roles. I know a few that do from my last game. And you forgot to mention this post:

Well, if you play with different styles then you aren't probably very good at this game because a person only needs to spot your "scum" style and you will lose.

I'm aware that you later said that other people called you aggressive, but you first stated it yourself. So, do you think you're aggressive or not?

So I'm going to be less active, not hohum unactive, but posting much less frequently.

More deflection toward another player.

Can you give me a post number?

Here

[VP Baltar]

Can you give me a post number?

Here

I already explained that, and I don't want to bring up old arguments for something that has already been explained. If you have a different question, please ask.

I wasn't asking you a question about it. I said it was a good point that Porkchop made and iirc your response underwhelmed me.

[VP Baltar]

By the way, Baltar, you didn't answer my question:

That's an ironic request.

Nitpicking and trying to pass it off as scumhunting
Inflating his own self-importance
Showing unnecessary hesitance to vote hiphop even though he's been allegedly going after him "aggressively".

Far Cry is a likely partner.

Why do u believe I'm "a likely partner?"

I must have missed it, sorry. It is the interaction between you two. Even when you're making jabs at one another it feels a little fake. I'll go back later and see if I can get some quotes to back what I'm saying. Currently I'm heading to work, however.

[VP Baltar]

Welcome to the game baltar

Thanks. Couldn't pass up another bird team up.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: hohum

Agreed.

[VP Baltar]

Not trying to deflect attention, just using hohum as an example.

And what purpose does it serve to your point to use him as an example? Do you think anyone here doesn't understand what lurking is?

As to if I think I'm aggressive, I don't really know. If I had to answer, I'd say yes.

So my argument is valid then. Despite your proclamation to be an aggressive player you seem very non-commital on calling people scum. Speaking of which, who do you think is scum and why?

Once again, just using hohum as an example.

Once again, I don't see any town motivation for this.

Still waiting....

What is your point in bringing this up? I could see if Far Cry said something, as it was directed at him, but I'm unclear why you would want to step in there...unless of course you are trying to sling mud, in which case, please proceed.

But you were bringing the point up. Why?

it was a good point

Also, read the context of when I first mentioned it. Zwet had asked me about the case on you. I gave my general feelings on what were the good and bad points made against you. Why are you so worried about me bringing it up?

---

Now, the reason I would be inclined to think that Far Cry and brothernature are scum buddies largely comes from the way they worked in tandem in the attack on hiphop. I really hate speculating on scumteams without alignment flips, but certain comments really stuck out to me:

Amen. These two can't seem to comprehend what a RVS is. They do seem to be displaying the usual paranoia that marks a townie, even if it is a bit early. As hohum said, I smell newbie townies...

I agree with you Far_Cry. hiphop and Gun, you two are really overdoing it. Tone it down a bit, because at the moment, it really does look like your scum trying to act town.

Far_Cry, I'm starting to like you.

At that point the buddying becomes so blatantly obvious that Far Cry calls him on it. Now, this may come from a town or scum Far Cry, I can't be sure because the buddying was mostly coming from bn's direction.

What I also don't like is that even though they were two of the ringleaders in the hiphop spat, neither of them would commit to a vote. Do either of you think he is scummy? Why or why not?

[VP Baltar]

At first, I thought he was simply a newbie townie overreacting to stuff. Then when he refused to drop it, I thought he was scum. OGM was doing the same thing, and since I already had my vote on him, I just left it.

So, I take it you think I am scummier than hiphop?


Hohum, I saw you posted in GD earlier...how about a little attention here.

[VP Baltar]

Once again, just using hohum as an example.

Once again, I don't see any town motivation for this.

Isn't there motivation for town to point out who is being inactive? Like pressure voting a lurker, for example.

Certainly there is, but that's not what brothernature was doing in that context, imo. He was basically saying, 'yeah, maybe that was kind of scummy...but at least I'm not lurking like hohum!', which to me further translates to 'hey, look over there!' *runs away*.

mod, what is the situation with hohum, has he been sufficently prodded and has he picked up that prod?

[VP Baltar]

But we have a REAL lead on possible scum. So we should be voting brothernature, not hohum.

What makes you so certain that hohum isn't just lurking scum who is more than happy to let a mislynch of brother nature go through?

[VP Baltar]

@Porkchop

Things like this:

Amen. These two can't seem to comprehend what a RVS is. They do seem to be displaying the usual paranoia that marks a townie, even if it is a bit early. As hohum said, I smell newbie townies...

I don't understand how you can think someone is scum within the first two pages. Honestly.

You two are either thick-headed or newbies. I prefer to believe in humanity's intelligence and go with the latter.

Zwet, unless your going to do anything besides babble mindless crap, then shut up. Please. And for the second effing time, don't effing capitalize the first gawd-dang letter of my name.

OGM, your acting very scummy. Overdoing the town act, accusing people of making wagons during the RVS, and just sending off scummy vibes to me. Vote: OneGunman. How much you wanna bet he's going to say that I'm making a wagon? Also, a word of advice to you, OGM, start in the Newbie Queue instead of jumping into a different Queue for your first game.

Followed by him saying this:

Kay hOhUM. FoS one of the only two people scum hunting at the moment.

Amongst other things he said, I don't see how he can consider that scum hunting. Read him in iso before that OneGunman vote and you'll see what I mean.

Add to that he later continues on this rant about not being able to find scum early. It's all a bit contradictory and forced to me.

[VP Baltar]

This is what bothers me, I don't think your questions were any more practical for moving the game forward than anyone else's, and yet you tried to classify them as such.

[VP Baltar]

Either way, there is plenty on him. Hohum is begging for a lurker lynch though. I hate to do it, but in a 7 player game, lurking is a serious sin.

[VP Baltar]

That's quite the conjencture Porkchop considering I just said I'm fine with lynching him if he continues to lurk and that is where my vote is. What about that makes you think I'm partners with hohum?

Also, do you think the case on bn seems falsified or exaggerated in any way?

[VP Baltar]

I agree, but town can't have a mislynch.

So what do you propose is the best course of action? Do lurkers get a free pass from you because town can't have a mislynch?

[VP Baltar]

No. Lurkers still need to be observed. What I'm saying is that town needs to be careful, and only to lynch lurkers after they are absolutely sure it is done with scummy intentions.

I'm not sure how one differentiates town lurking vs. scum lurking if both modes include posting nothing.

[VP Baltar]

@ hip hop and porkchop-how about some scum hunting?
Also, PE is correct, lynching a lurker on D2 of this game is an awful idea because if we mislynch today we are most likely going to be in lylo.


I didn't realize deadline was so close, people really need to start contributing because I have nothing better than weak reads on people and that is ridiculous on page 8.

[VP Baltar]

What was scummy in his last post zwet?

[VP Baltar]

And when was he asked to do that?

[VP Baltar]

However, he’s not my optimal lynch.

Who is your optimal lynch today? Hohum?

My instinct is to call Zwet on opportunistic wagoning, but I have a feeling that this is more or less par for the course from him.

Yeah, pretty much. You have to drastically adjust your scumdar when dealing with zwet, and if you haven't played with him before that is more difficult to do.

[VP Baltar]

Also, Far_Cry and hiphop, why the heck are you not voting? You find no one scummy in the game yet? When will this take place?

[VP Baltar]

I haven’t played with zwet, so does that mean I must take your word as a townie that he is not scum.

No, not at all, but it does mean that you should take some time to read him in iso in some other games he has been in and reach a decision for yourself. I can assure you that some standard scumtells are null in relation to zwet, and in a small game like this we need to do everything in our power to avoid a mislynch.

Have you played with him when he was scum or town? Both? Where is he located on your scumdar most likely, least likely, or somewhere in the middle?

I have seen him as both, but I think I may have only played with him as town (there may have been a marathon game in there where he was scum, but I can't remember every game). In terms of location on my scumdar, I'm mostly still in the process of figuring that out. Him tunneling on a target is null (and even if it wasn't zwet, I probably wouldn't see it as a scumtell). His buddying up to me bothers me a little bit, but I could also see that coming from either alignment. Right now I guess I would place him as "somewhere in the middle" based on your scale.

[VP Baltar]

Normally I wouldn't do this, but with deadline approaching, we need some pressure.

So is your vote for pressure or to lynch at deadline? If it's for pressure, what do you hope that pressure will achieve (ie, what would you like zwet to do)?

Similarly, he could be replaced and they could be immensely helpful but since hohum does just enough to avoid replacement, this doesn't seem likely

I'm pretty sure the mod promised a replacement and deadline extension, and I plan to take full advantage of that.

Mod: what is the status on hohum being replaced and when is the deadline going to be?

[VP Baltar]

It does seem like you're quite busy right now hohum. Can you really handle staying in this game? I want you to stay, but if you're giving no content to play from you're at best hurting town and at worst playing a cheap ass game as scum. If you give me your word that you'll try and catchup and give some content, then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but if you honestly don't think you can do that it might be best to just replace.

[VP Baltar]

If you're staying hohum, can you give me a list of who you think is town and who you think is scum.

[VP Baltar]

I'm very aggressive, as I've said before. It's my nature. And I am able to have a normal conversation, just not with people who refuse to answer questions or refuse to regularly post.

Except you're completely not, which I already pointed out. You haven't gone agressively after anybody thus far in this game as far as I can see. And let us not forget when I first called you out on this you tried to say you meant that other people had called you aggressive one time. Most of your time thus far in this game has been spent attacking people over lurking or their playstyle rather than actual scummy behavior.

Now that hohum is back,

Unvote, Vote: brothernature

[VP Baltar]

Yep, time to claim brother...nature.

[VP Baltar]

It's a bit odd honestly. I have known hohum to be quite aggressive with his vote in the past. While he certainly showed the words against bn, witholding his vote doesn't mesh with the hohum I know. Then again, if they were buddies it seems a bit odd that he would go for a potential bus that early in the game, especially with other viable wagons available.

[VP Baltar]

Did you breadcrumb your role?

[VP Baltar]

I'm looking for something, anything from zwets other than accusations and stupid smart-ass comments.

That wasn't my question though, was your vote for pressure or because you wanted to lynch him?

What do you mean you believe he did? Switching your vote to who?

[VP Baltar]

well, don't point anything out until bn answers my question. What I don't understand is that if Far Cry believes the claim, why that would make him more inclined to move his vote from zwet.

[VP Baltar]

2 days is not a long time before deadline...everyone needs to start speaking up here.

Porkchop, since you are inclined to believe bn (or at least that is how I am reading it), who would you like to see lynched today?

[VP Baltar]

Unvote

btw. Should have done that earlier until we sort things out a bit.

Zwet is neutral to me because he is very hard to read. However, uUnless we get a counterclaiming doc, I would be willing to take zwet as a policy lynch today. I'm not sure I can see myself necessarily wanting anyone else dead at this point...though I don't have great reads on a lot of people.

The only real scummy thing zwet has done in my eyes is buddy pretty hard to me, which makes me uncomfortable.

I still want to hear everyone else weighing in on the bn issue.

[VP Baltar]

zwet, thoughts?

PE and Far Cry, what do you think now that bn has said he did not breadcrumb? What post did you think was a breadcrumb (I'd prefer if Far Cry answers this one first)?

[VP Baltar]

Why do you suspect hohum?

Hohum, why Far Cry?

[VP Baltar]

zwet, we're not lynching hohum. Switch to hiphop.

PE, you're the only other person who I am pretty certain is town right now, so I'm going to back you.

Vote: hiphop

Let's make sure we get a lynch here today people. hiphop, you should probably claim.

[VP Baltar]

After Bn claims, votes hohum completely forgets about me (which he attacked me with a passion in the beginning),

This is a decent point. Zwet, anything to say for yourself? Why hohum over hiphop?

[VP Baltar]

Mod: how many hours until deadline

PE, I'm reconsidering, what are your thoughts on a zwet lynch? I starting to have misgivings that he is indeed scum this game.

[VP Baltar]

Alright, screw it. I think hip hop is going to be easier to read later in the game than zwet.

Someone also recently did a comprehensive meta analysis of zwet that pointed out his posting patterns as town and scum. I can't link it because it's an ongoing game, but his amount of posting here seems closer to his scum meta.

Him going silent right now doesn't help either.

Unvote, Vote: zwet

Before you hammer hohum, why do you prefer a zwet lynch over hiphop?

[VP Baltar]

or a deadline extension would be nice

[VP Baltar]

Well, there you go. Let's hope I'm right.

[VP Baltar]

In fairness, I think zwet's style has improved a lot since he first joined the site. I don't mind him like I would Mastin. If this game weren't so small I probably wouldnt' be favor of his lynch right now.

[VP Baltar]

That was a quick night. If a cop has a guilty, come forward. If not, give me a minute to think about this.

bn, who did you protect last night?

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, cop should come out with his investigation as long as he didn't do something completely stupid like investigate brothernature. In fact, it might be best to do a popcorn mass claim to really put the pressure on the scum. Who is for and who is against this?

While I don't agree with everything hip hop said, I'm inclined to believe he is right about Far Cry. He seems like the most likely candidate (though hard bussing by hohum isn't out of the question).

[VP Baltar]

I wasn't really saying people should start claiming. I asked if people were for or against it. No one else claim until we hear everyone's thoughts.

[VP Baltar]

Wait a second. Why would have investigating brothernature been a bad thing?

Because he is an uncounterclaimed doc...investigating him would be quite the waste since he is confirmed innocent unless another person comes forward and says he is the doc.

In terms of hiphop and Far Cry both saying they are suspicious of me, I encourage you to look at the actual wagon yesterday. I could have very easily left my vote on hiphop and allowed him to be hammered instead of switching my vote at the last minute. I understand it's WIFOM and I very well could have been bussing, but if you are going to go down that road then I don't see how hohum is cleared in your eyes.

Anyhow, Far Cry, I'd still like you to answer my question to you after bn claimed when you said you were considering switching your vote off of zwet given the claim. I don't understand how those are related.

[VP Baltar]

Being more specific from earlier:

Did you breadcrumb your role?

I believe he did. I'm considering switching my vote.

I still want you to explain why brothernature breadcrumbing his vote (or so you believed) meant that you were going to switch your vote from zwet.


I did a reread of the last bit of yesterday to get a better feel of where we are at right now and what exactly happened to lead to zwet getting lynched. First, let me say that I think hiphop looks much more townish in hindsight of zwet flipping scum. hiphop was actively questioning him and questioning my neutral read on him.

Second, hiphop, you said this at the start of the day:

I believe it was Hohum, who turned Vp toward Zwet. Vp may have led the town, but it was because of Hohum that Zwet was lynched.

That's not actually true. Look back at page 11 and you will see hohum votes Far Cry after bn's claim and switches to zwet at the last minute only after I changed my vote. This could be a case of hohum buddying me and bussing his partner in the same post.

I believe I have this game cracked right now and it looks like hohum is the last scum, imo.

Also,

Far_Cry was the first vote on zwet.

he actually wasn't. You were the first vote, but a mod error in the vote count had him listed as first.

[VP Baltar]

hohum, what do you think of hiphop's interactions with zwet yesterday? Do they appear to be those of a scum buddy?

[VP Baltar]

But hiphop was the most consistent in arguing for zwet's lynch, imo.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not saying he's cleared by any means, but the interactions do seem genuine to me and not very likely to come from scum. I agree that his argument against Far Cry is less than stellar, but bad logic doesn't necessarily mean scum.

In terms of who I would like lynched, that's a tougher question since we obviously have a situation of someone bussing their partner. I need to look at both Far Cry and yourself in iso before I can reach any sort of a serious conclusion. If I absolutely had to chose though, based upon those last few pages in the day I just read, I would say that you're my lynch choice at this very moment.

[VP Baltar]

I assume you are talking about post 304. I dont see how you are getting that interpretation. I'm saying that if I was going to be looking at one of the two of Far Cry and hiphop based on their interactions with zwet yesterday, it would almost certainly be Far Cry (which is one reason I need to iso read him). You can't just disregard that we caught scum on day 1 because the conclusions you reach are going to be based on WIFOM.

Did you think hiphop was scummy yesterday or was his 'case' on Far Cry what really did it for you?

[VP Baltar]

meh. He was cooked yesterday for sure. I think we have enough information already to root out the scum without the need for wagoning for wagon's sake. Far Cry's absence says a lot to me as well. I'd like to hear a lot more from him in the near future.

Our dear old doc could chime in too since we know he's innocent and at least wouldn't have any ulterior motives to his posts.

[VP Baltar]

look you're welcome to try and draw conclusions out of D1 if you want to but it's a mess to me. Perhaps your clarity of vision is better than mine. I'm open to suggestions right now. If you can convince me that something concrete can be extrapolated out of D1 then I'll go right along with you. In the mean time I'm going to try and generate fresh discussion.

Well, the way Day 1 went down might not be the best, but I don't think it's useless at all. We know for sure that zwet was bussed by his partner. That's a fact. From there, I think it is going to be useful to look at everyone's interactions with zwet and their reasons for voting him/the way in which they voted him. Obviously there is a lot of WIFOM involved, but I'm of the opinion that if you look at whose vote has the most scum motivation behind it, you are likely to find his partner.

why would it be beneficial for me to get zwets lynched?

It happened, so this is a horrible defense. The obvious reason is to appear more town by lynching scum.

I placed a vote on him because I thought he was scum

orly? Cause if I remember correctly, you voted him for pressure. Why did you think he was scum again?

Anyways, hiphop is acting totally antitown. He's not helping at all. He's case on me is weak, with no evidence proof, etc. He is making everything way too complicated, and nothing he says makes sense.

Ok, so what is the simple approach here? I don't see any argument above for who you think is scum.

At first, I thought that bn simply breadcrummed his role. But when zwets turned up town, I knew he wasn't.

I don't understand what you are saying here. Zwet did not turn up town. I'm confused. you know what a breadcrumb is, correct?

@hiphop, what makes you so certain I'm not the cop. I don't think outting the role is the best idea right now.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not going to join a wagon for shitty reasons.

re: iso reads-I have other games I'm in and I had to work this afternoon. It happens.

In terms of scum hunting, how much do you feel you are you doing hohum?

[VP Baltar]

I'm not going to join a wagon for shitty reasons.

re: iso reads-I have other games I'm in and I had to work this afternoon. It happens.

In terms of scum hunting, how much do you feel you are you doing hohum?

It seems we've switched roles. You're doing all the hardcore lurking and I'm trying to get a wagon going.

It's not so much that you won't join the wagon that bothers me it's that you're trying to actively discourage a hiphop wagon without providing sound reasoning or any of the ISO analysis you promised.

How the hell am I lurking? I posted a fairly large post questioning Far Cry yesterday morning. I told you already that the hiphop wagon sucks based upon his interactions with zwet.

As I asked you before, what do you think the quality of your scumhunting has been so far today?

[VP Baltar]

Our dear old doc could chime in too since we know he's innocent and at least wouldn't have any ulterior motives to his posts.

Wait a second. I thought you just said we shouldn't be looking for the cop, and that the cop shouldn't claim. So why should doc claim? So you can kill him the next night?

What you are saying, VP, makes no sense. Either you or hiphop are scum, and you look more plausible.

vote VP Baltar

bn is the doc. RTFT. I'll address the rest of your mess after I get my morning story out.

[VP Baltar]

so far today the quality of my scum hunting is much better than yours. You're not doing anything other than whining.

You may have posted your thoughts on far_cry, but you still have yet to deliver on any other promised content.

I disagree with you big time. All you've done today is wanted to start a hiphop wagon for bad reasoning, and accuse me of lurking when I very clearly am not. Meanwhile, I have already looked back at hiphop substantially and have been questioning Far Cry. I haven't gotten to you yet due to time, but will most likely get to today. If you're town, I suggest you seriously look at context and content before you make weak accusations.

[VP Baltar]

and now i really do have to go for a couple hours here before I get fired. I shall return.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, iso of Far Cry makes him less likely to be scum with zwet, imo. He has a few tussles with him here and there that seem genuine, and even though his level of contribution hasn't been great, the attacks leading up to his vote at least seem consistent (mild dispute->FOS->vote).

hohum on the other didn't really say much to or about zwet for a majority of the day. Here is all he says in reference to him day 1:

zwet is a liability in every game he ever plays in. He's an automatic policy lynch in my book because of the fact that he purposefully cultivates his persona so that nobody can get an accurate read on him.

If mislynches weren't such a huge deal in a 7P setup I'd be pushing for his lynch too.

I haven't decided if his play is any scummier than usual yet. I need better reads on certain people before if I decide lynching him on policy is a safe bet or not.

I'll follow up with opinions on the rest of the players here after a quick reread.

(weak attack with an out that he needs to do more research. that never comes btw.)

and

I think you need to coordinate the lynch fast as hell. I'm not 100% on anyone right now but I'd rather see zwet lynched over hiphop.

If you want to change wagons, do it fast. I'll stick around and toss my vote on as long as I possibly can.

This seems more like town hohum, and is one of my biggest hangups on him being scum.

and

A large part of my demotivation has to do with his presence in this game. I requested that this setup be run again and I was /in the game before he was. When I saw he signed up I asked him not to /in himself; however, he knows the mod IRL.

I just simply don't like him, for better or worse. He's an automatic policy lynch for me.

There's no reason other than meta that I prefer a zwet lynch to a hiphop lynch. My reads on hiphop are pretty null.

I actively dislike zwet, to the point that I don't really care if he flips town or not. He needs to be bounced out of this game.

unvote, vote zwet

One question I'd like answered here is what meta reasons did you vote for him here?

And that's it apart from his poem. I think the perception that hohum had anything to do with zwet getting lynched is horribly wrong. He basically went along with the flow. I believe that he really doesn't like zwet, so I could definitely see him as scum just bussing him for the hell of it.

---

A few other points from recent posts I'd like to address:

If he waits until tomorrow, and we don’t lynch scum today, the scum could claim cop too. There is no proof either way.

You would just have to assess the cop claims and see which is more valid. However, I'm thinking about if the cop claiming today is a good idea or not. Let me think on it some more and I might back you.

Whatever he does he should not attempt to save the cop, otherwise we will lose.

Yeah, I'm sure he knows that he cannot protect the cop.

I don't like the fact that VP is actively shutting down potential wagons

It's not so much that you won't join the wagon that bothers me it's that you're trying to actively discourage a hiphop wagon without providing sound reasoning or any of the ISO analysis you promised.

Ok, first notice these quotes about how I'm stopping his wagon, which he then admits is bullshit:

My attempt to wagon hiphop at the beginning of the day was a bluff but hiphop should have been the one to call me on that, not you.

That makes no fucking sense at all. You should be hunting scum not starting bad wagons for the sake of it. I fail to see how me wanting to actually find scum rather than waist time with a wagon on someone who is obvtown makes me scum....unless you are simply reaching for reasons because you see me as a threat to you right now.

A) Baltar opportunistically busing Zwet

This completely wrong. What was opportunistic about joining that wagon at a time when I had no reason to do so otherwise? You on the other hand had no choice once I joined the wagon because that would have sealed his fate no matter what.

B) Introducing diversion tactics. I've noticed you're the most vocal about the busing ploy. Trying to cover your tracks, mm

Here's a clue: zwet was bussed. Unless you are trying to dispute that fact. I think you don't like that line of thought because you look like the most obviously suspicious.

C) Leading the town around all day long yesterday.

This makes me scum how? Surely I don't have some magic wand that controls people. Don't forget that I made the correct play at the end of the day as well. Do you feel that my contributions to this game have been unhelpful to the town? If so, please go into detail.

D) Proactively tearing wagons down.

Shitty wagons that you admit have no good reasoning, yes, I have no problem claiming up to that.

You're quite actively lurking. You have had 48 hours now to deliver on promised content. You better have written a novel by now.

This is a completely bullshit argument to make when you are providing exactly 0% in significant scumhunting. Your claim to fame today is a bad wagon, a pretty weak ass case on me, and saying that we have no reason to analyze day 1. You are scum.

Vote: hohum

(ten bucks says he now attempts to call this OMGUS)

Bn probably is doc (I'm 100% he's town, though) but you never answered my question.

How can I answer a question that is based on misinformation and makes no sense? I don't know why the doc should claim because he already claimed. is that a satisfactory answer to you?

[VP Baltar]

hiphop, what do you think of the points I made about hohum?

[VP Baltar]

Your reasons for voting hohum are pretty valid. However, gut feeling tells me he is town. It's hard to explain but it's just what I think

What are your feelings on the case he made against me? I am looking forward to you reading the three of us in iso and giving your opinions.

[VP Baltar]

What is strange about having a wide attack? Town members do not know who is scum and therefore have to question most everyone to build accurate reads.

[VP Baltar]

Notice how hohum doesn't respond to anything I said, and calls it OMGUS (like I said he would) despite the fact that I attacked him first.

Also, quote where I said I was going to post a full iso analysis. I said I was going to read people in iso, so you're quite obviously trying to strawman away from the case that was made against you.

bn, what do you think about a hohum lynch today?

[VP Baltar]

Btw, hohum, please give a reason why you didn't respond to this post at all. Do you not consider this to be a significant analysis?

[VP Baltar]

@VP: Who is your prime suspect?

Hohum, obviously. Like I said, I think I have this setup cracked right now.

Also before you place your vote, simple yes or no, do you think the cop should claim today?

[VP Baltar]

Vp if hohum is not scum, who is your next suspect?

Depends on who claims cop. Which brings me to my next point:

This means the cop must be one of the remaining three characters. Also the scum must be one of them too, so if we lynch Hohum, and he is a vanilla, than the scum has an easy shot at the cop. This applies to anyone being scum

I've been thinking about this, and I agree with you. I think the cop is pretty much guaranteed to be doomed tonight. Therefore, I'm tossing my hat into the ring that thinks the cop should claim today. From a townperson's perspective this will boost the chances of being right from 33% to 50%. Taking additional information into account, these odds go even higher and I think we have a very good chance of winning this today.

So, to hohum, Far Cry and bn, do you think the cop claiming today is a good idea? If no, please explain why.

Also, no one hammer hohum yet, I think we still have some discussion left before that happens.

@hohum, that sleep schedule sounds crazy cool...though I don't know how i would fit into into my work life. Good luck.

[VP Baltar]

I think I know who the cop is as well. That's why I think we may as well come out with it.

[VP Baltar]

I guess you targeted Bn being you said he was town.

Now I am starting to have misgivings about Vp. The reason is because Hohum is the one who said the cop should not claim, even though he knew who it was from post 288. Vp on the other hand came into day two not quite agreeing with everything I said. So,

unvote
Vote VP Baltar.

This will also correct Sironigous votecount because he said I am voting for him anyways.

I'm confused why you're voting me. Do explain.


I figured Far Cry was the cop as well with his obvious "why shouldn't a cop have investigated bn", but I held some hope that I or someone else would be able to draw the nk and make it easy. Eventually it became obvious that wasn't going to happen.

@hohum, what exactly was there for me to respond to there? when do you plan on responding to the actual case presented against you instead of hiding behind baseless accusations against me?

I'm vanilla, btw. I take it hohum isn't dumb enough scum to counter claim a cop.

Nobody hammer me until hohum explains himself. I also want hiphop to make his case. I was pretty sure he was town, but that quick switching in vote after the cop claim strikes me as odd.

[VP Baltar]

@Far Cry-hiphop was actually voting for hohum just before you claimed cop. That's partially why I'm confused. I can see him unvoting you if you claimed cop, but I don't understand why your claim suddently made him think I'm more scummy than hohum.

re:brothernature-I'm sure he'll be around soon. Don't forget that he had his tests today or whatever.

[VP Baltar]

See now, hiphop, you're making me do all this work to show you how incorrect you are on a Saturday morning. You're lucky I'm more inclined to believe you are town than hohum or I'd probably be upset.

Anyhow:

First of all there is the big time one-way buddying by zwet. Which is highlighted by this post-

That's how I roll. Meta me if you don't believe it. If there is a wagon I want, I will do some goading if necessary to get people on it. Plus we were approaching a deadline and I had almost no read whatsoever on hohum at that time. Your lynch sounded much better to me. Also, I would like you to explain to me why I, if I were scum, would not simply wait for zwet to come in and vote you instead of switching my vote to him at the last minute. How does that make any sense to you?

In post 279 zwet singles you out and congratulates you.

That's because I beat him on meta alone. As I said before, I cannot quote from the game that I got his meta from because it is ongoing, but it was a very comprehensive and impressive piece of work that did a lot toward making me change my mind.

Also, if you want to accuse me of being buddied by zwet over that stupid post, how do you explain the deleted post where he said one of you and Far Cry are his buddies? Since Far Cry is the cop, shouldn't I be lyching you over that?

Hohum gets townie points for indistinctly saying Far_Cry is the cop, and that he shouldn’t claim unless he investigated one of the vanillas alive right now. You on the other hand looked like you wanted the cop to claim, by asking, "should the cop claim" twice. It looked to me that you wanted to confirm who the cop was but wanted to do it without creating attention on you.

Sorry to inform you, but it was pretty obvious the stars were aligned toward Far Cry being the cop. I'll explain for you. Here is the list we started the day with:

brothernature
hohum
hiphop
Far Cry
VP Baltar

Now, brothernature is confirmed doc and you had already claimed vanilla. That leaves me with:

hohum
Far Cry

Hohum's questioning you are talking about along with Far Cry's question about investigating brothernature clearly indicate hohum is not the cop. So, you see, at that point it is so obvious who the cop actually is that town is actually better served having him claim so we have another confirmed innocent and the pool of scum is even narrower to choose from. You were already barking up that wrong tree pretty heartily today, so it is probably best that Far Cry claimed so you can focus on where the scum is actually at. Do you now understand how it was a pro-town move for the cop to claim today rather than wait?

Furthermore, keep in mind that I think hohum is scum. I also know he's a very smart guy and probably would have followed the same process of elimination to figure out who the cop is. Had Far Cry stayed hidden for the remainder of the day, we would have had less of a chance of hitting scum today and he probably still would have been killed at night. Relying on powerroles to find the scum for you isn't a very good move to make.

Then we have my case against Far_Cry. You say you don’t agree with everything I say, but you were still willing to still attack Far_Cry. Hopping on the bw?

Putting pressure on a player is not necessarily "hopping on the bw". I never voted him and once he accidentally made it clear he was the cop, I backed off. You did make a lot of very bad points in your case, but you also had one or two that I thought were at least worth pushing a bit further. How is that scummy?

Hohum attacks and votes for you, you attack and vote for Hohum.

This is a gross misrepresentation of what actually happened. Hohum attacked you for your case on Far Cry. I didn't buy his case and said this:

In terms of who I would like lynched, that's a tougher question since we obviously have a situation of someone bussing their partner. I need to look at both Far Cry and yourself in iso before I can reach any sort of a serious conclusion. If I absolutely had to chose though, based upon those last few pages in the day I just read, I would say that you're [hohum] my lynch choice at this very moment.

Only after I said that, does hohum attack me. That's not OMGUS on my part by any definition. As far as you saying I'm OMGUSing you, how is that so? I said you changing your vote based on Far Cry's claim is odd. Does that translate into scummy for you?

Now, after looking back again, I had another thought pop into my head, but before I get to that, hohum can you pinpoint the post for me that you figured out Far Cry was the cop? Give me the logic on how you deduced it. I believe the timing is important, so that is why I would like you to tell me exactly.

[VP Baltar]

The same as why didn't Hohum cast the hammer vote on me? You wanted to have townie points. Wanted to get off a bw? Anything else I am not thinking of?

Perhaps, but I don't know if that facts actually point to that. Look back at the timeline of events. I voted you after following my town read on PE. 24 hours later I said I was reconsidering and thinking about a zwet lynch. Hohum did not post in that period, so it may simply be that he didn't have a chance to hammer you before I expressed some doubt. I don't personally think that if you had been lynched and flipped town I would have looked all that suspicious. However, if hohum had quick hammered you after I said I was reconsidering, it would have no doubt looked very bad for him.

I didn't see that post. I didn't get off work until a half hour after night started. How can he say both of us are his scum buddies?

He said ONE of you two were. It's an obvious WIFOM move that may or may not have been true. (I actually want to talk about this post game...so remind me if I forget).

Pro-town only if I am town, but you asked if the cop should claim right after I posted my case against Far_Cry. Way before Hohum's questioning.

That's because if the cop had investigated one of myself, hohum or you we would have been guaranteed a victory in the game. Think about it. We have two lynches left to spend and there are only three actual suspects right now. If we could have cleared one of those persons it would have been the same as an auto win.

The rest of the town would of not even had voted for Far_Cry. I only stopped the pressure, because nobody was attacking along with me. Either way you or Hohum would of been lynched.

Don't count yourself out of this buddy. You are by no means confirmed town.

[VP Baltar]

Far Cry, what exactly makes you believe hohum is town other than attacking hiphop? He hasn't exactly done any scumhunting of note today, nor has he responded to the points I made against him. I may not be seeing what you are.

[VP Baltar]

There are not really facts on that. It is all pretty much wifom. You could of made that post, so that if anyone who wanted a lynch(which was everybody) hammered, you had a base to attack them today. He could have waited until PE chimed in to see what PE would think before he even voted.

I agree that it's all WIFOM, however, your point was just as WIFOMy. What I'm saying is look at the context and determine what is the most logical conclusion to reach from it. Occum's razor and all that.

Maybe that was why he was so adamantly with me today. I am surprised you didn't attack me over this.

It's a bad reason to attack someone. Scum is more likely than not to be lying in that situation. You can't trust a word a dead scum says.

That was my reasoning. There is no need to convince of that, but if you were so for this why did you ask and not say?

Surprisingly, I'm not infallible. I like to have general concensus on things like cop's claiming because there could very well be a logic hole I am missing. Plus, if there is a general concensus then it doesn't give someone a chance later to say 'oh, I never wanted the cop to claim' and try to sling mud from that.

[VP Baltar]

Well, it's been just as long for hohum...and frankly I'm more interested in what he has to say than anything else right now.

[VP Baltar]

I'd mostly like you to answer my question about when and how you determined Far Cry was the cop. Right now, that's more important to me than the other stuff I posted (though if you replied to my case, I'd appreciate it).

[VP Baltar]

If hohum doesn't post tonight, he needs to die.

[VP Baltar]

I don't know, standard macho cop simply can't be protected. I don't think there are any variations on that in an open setup. My guess is that line is just a flavor typing from the mod that can be interpreted incorrectly.

[VP Baltar]

Agreed. Reading back over the last couple pages has left me wanting to hear from hohum. He never replied to your case against him, Baltar. Just said "OMGUS" and left it. But I just really don't wanna lynch of over lurking. If we mislynch, we'll be at Lylo tomorrow, unless I get a successfull protection.

The reason I said that yesterday was because I noticed hohum has time to sign up for new games, but not to post in this thread. I wanted to give him some time to post his reply because I can understand being busy, but he has well exceeded the bounds of my patience.

I say someone throws the hammer.

If hohum flips town, tonight Far Cry investigates myself or hiphop and most likely bites the dust. Bn puts out a protection on one of us that doesn't do much of anything, and then we enter three player lylo tomorrow. I know I'm town, and I'm pretty sure bn knows it as well, but we can have whatever discussions are necessary to prove that tomorrow.

[VP Baltar]

Woot! I was probably lucky you weren't at full capacity hohum because I started the game off giving you too much leeway.

[VP Baltar]

@hohum-I'll think about it. Trying to cut back on my number of games a little bit right now, but opens don't take that much time and effort.

What's the story on Last Man Standing? Is that a theme game?

@the mod-thanks for the game. good job overall and the vote counts were timely. I personally don't think you should have deleted the post where Zwet said that one of Far Cry and hiphop was his partner. In my opinion, that type of wifom is all a part of the game and shouldn't be interferred with by the moderator.

@PE-wish you could have lived longer. I figured it was going to be one of us that was going to get killed N1. I really like your style and look forward to playing with you again.

@bn-I think you were out front a bit too much early on with you being the doc. You should still scumhunt, but you have to make sure you do it in a careful way as a powerrole so you don't get outted too early. I think you do well after your early going.

@hiphop-I'm not really sure why everyone found you so scummy early on. Your late switching around was throwing me for a loop a little bit, but overall you seemed town enough. I think you maybe could spend a bit more time thinking about motivations behind actions to determine who is actually scummy.

@Far Cry-I think you did alright, but definitely shouldn't have investigated brothernature. That was a really bad move, even if you weren't sure you could believe him. Even if he was scum faking, the real doc would have claimed the next day. You came through later in day two and helped me out though, so good job.

@zwet-You're going to have to start changing your meta now.

[VP Baltar]

When are you looking to run it?

[VP Baltar]

/in !

that works for me. All queues have been moving slow though. I don't know what the deal is. People are maxed out I guess.

[VP Baltar]

Well it was nice to be on the winning team for once, but sadly I wasn't a big factor. I completely missed the boat on Zwet (I'm not sure I even made it to the pier) and never really got around to Hohum. It was nice to see the game clean up a bit after the early shenanigans, though.

I disagree a little bit. You played a very pro-town game even if your suspicions were off. That helped me out a lot because I pretty much had no doubt that you were town. Eliminating players as potential scum goes a long way toward winning in a small setup like this. I think for being relatively new, you are a ver good player and I'm glad to hear you are in Last Man Standing.

Plus you were killed N1, that's the frustrating mark of a true champion .