Open 166-Lovers Mafia (Game Over!) - before 838

[Amished]

Heyheyhey!

So, 3 pages doesn't take long to read. I fail to see how Kise thought that Sponge was trying to be in a leadership position. Also, since Siro was getting us out of the RVS anyways, I don't see how spongebob was scummy for "keeping with the normal flow of traffic" so to speak. Spongebob liked RVS stages, Siro started to get out of it, so Spongebob continued to get out of it as the game had already turned serious.

Sironigous looks slightly suspicious for his one-example vote hop (refer Sironi to "if only scum did something, they would never do it in the first place as it'd give them away"). Dram, however is extremely suspicious for hopping on a weaker reason to vote for Sponge/me.

[Amished]

@Kise: Don't feel that your wagon was going the way you wanted so you decided to vote switch now that it stalled?

[Amished]

EBWOP:

@Sironi: What kind of elimination makes anybody my partner? A buss before it becomes obvious that it's necessary is often the most effective one.

[Amished]

@Kise: You should know we do from playing together elsewhere.

Now answer the question.

[Amished]

You can't make somebody talk about anything without voting for them?

[Amished]

lol ninja >_>

[Amished]

So to question anybody/make them talk about a topic, you need to vote for them. Got it.

le Chat is neutral town due to not hammering, but backing that up with reason rather than looking like just not voting so as not to get an instant quicklynch on him tomorrow for his play today.

Dram is my top suspect at the moment for the blatant wagoning with weak reasoning.

Sironi is also suspicious due to the partner speculation with no real reasoning behind it, and answering for Dram (page two). Could be a link, but unsure of that right now.

Far_Cry is looking to be logical and pro-town in my eyes, nothing major to make me suspicious there.

As for you, Kise; I'm undecided. I'm leaning towards town due to you looking like you're trying to question motivations, but picking up on something small like what you did and leading everybody around isn't often beneficial to the game.

Where do your suspicions lie, other than on me? On le chat who you voted for? Somebody else? With this being a nightless setup, I think everyone should post a most town to least town list (because there are no NK's, this gives everyone a reference point for later on in the game and doesn't endanger anybody by looking pro-town).

[Amished]

Unvote
Vote: Kise

Go through a list. Now.

[Amished]

Hey there Dram, how's it going? Who else do you think is scummy?

[Amished]

Unvote
Vote: Dramonic

[Amished]

I will give my reasonings when another player (not you nor Kise) comes in and asks if they can't figure it out themselves. Why do you expect I did that?

[Amished]

Not even close.

[Amished]

Amished is upset because you voted for his partner, dram. That's why.

Not even close again.

BTW, I'll have your list after Sir & FC post again, Amished.

Ok.

[Amished]

Dram: Your list too, please; since you're active in thread.

[Amished]

Dram: What puts Siro as your most pro-town right now?

[Amished]

So, regarding Le Chat, he's scummy for not hammering when he could have?

[Amished]

What in particular did he say about the wagon that you thought was scummy?

[Amished]

@ le Chat: Did you want to ask me any questions as you wanted to hear from my replacee?

@ Dram: Do you feel that stalling a wagon on page 3 (with confirmations in thread, so in reality ~2-2.5 pages of discussion) is always scummy? Or would you look at those who tried to quicklynch that far into a game?

[Amished]

You're going to blame everybody's inactiveness and slow pace of the game all on le chat? FC just had to be prodded, Sironi only has 2 more posts than le Chat (at 9) and has posted in about the same timeframe. It's not all him, why are you singling him out when other than you, Kise and myself haven't been as active?

[Amished]

So you're basing this off of other activity?

[Amished]

To pull something quick like that on a partner is risking game loss 3 pages in, giving the keys to the game to 3 separate townies since it is a lovers game and if one mafia dies the other does as well.

When you come back, FC, please give your town/scum list if you would. le Chat, if you would as well if/when you come back, that'd be mighty nice.

Sironi, where are you and when you come back, post your thoughts and finish with a town/scum list as well.

[Amished]

I'm down.

Unvote
Vote: Far_Cry

L-2

[Amished]

@Sironi: What kind of elimination makes anybody my partner? A buss before it becomes obvious that it's necessary is often the most effective one.

Yeah, it

might

be a bus... but... Kise did have a fairly strong argument against Spongebob. The fact that no one took it - well.. And Spongebob was on L-1... so..

I might just be overreacting about L-1.. First lovers game?

Elaborate on this point. Also, as has been discussed, there can't be a bus to hammer as both the scum would die at that point. Though that's somewhat misleading as obviously they can vote for each other, it's just a question of how gutsy the scum are.

Sironi is also suspicious due to the partner speculation with no real reasoning behind it, and answering for Dram (page two). Could be a link, but unsure of that right now.

Sorry, whatcha mean by answering him?

Oh, I meant Dram answering for Sironi, here:

From what I've seen of Siro (I could be wrong) I think it means he hasn't noticed anything particularly odd or standing out in your post, therefore he has nothing he needs you to explain.

Again, I could be wrong, Siro can answer for himself.

Sironi, where are you and when you come back, post your thoughts and finish with a town/scum list as well.

Townish
Kise (active! expresses!)
dramonic (active! expresses! Would be on par with Kise, but I don't like the vote hopping)
Le Chat (null!!!!)
Far_Cry (expresses, but in a bi-partisan way - also rocco never answered the question)
Amished (on the basis of Spongebob)


Non-Townish

Factors counted in: Activity, Expression, Content

LOL. I'm glad you can't actually factor in my current Activity, Expression and Content into your little graph. It makes things a lot easier for me since you can't get away from what you thought is an opinion you can't change.

Unvote
Vote: Sironigous

[Amished]

So, 3 pages doesn't take long to read. I fail to see how Kise thought that Sponge was trying to be in a leadership position. Also, since Siro was getting us out of the RVS anyways, I don't see how spongebob was scummy for "keeping with the normal flow of traffic" so to speak.

Spongebob liked RVS stages, Siro started to get out of it, so Spongebob continued to get out of it as the game had already turned serious.

Reading helps.

Also, I'm assuming that your "one shot thing" is Sponge's quote

Your case against me is really weak. RVS is a bad thing to completely get rid of based on the questions of a single person.

?

I think he meant that all people should be active and questioning rather than following the lead of one person questioning everybody. This would make sense as only the person asking the questions knows the intent of the questions. Therefore, it really is impossible to gauge reactions properly if you're not active and asking questions yourself. As this also ties into his feelings on the RVS (should last until everyone is ready to move on and go as a group) I'd say this would probably be rather accurate.

Also, still glad to see that nothing I do can change your opinion on my role. We have caught scum guys. Let's vote Sironi and win this game.

[Amished]

Your refusal to account for the actions of a player in the same role, while also being singularly unhelpful throughout the game, especially as you admit that your questions were bogus. Now quiet, scum. Let everyone else come and vote for you.

[Amished]

Discussion would've progressed with or without you. Shush.

[Amished]

Not like we don't have 3 weeks to discuss anyways.

Besides, me replacing in caused more discussion than your questions. There. Now quiet. Stop distracting the other people from voting you.

[Amished]

I will be V/LA til Sunday.

[Amished]

I can make stuff to talk about, you know, like my town-scum list, or how freaky scummy you are and how you should be lynched without talking. *disables Sir's post button*

On a related note, I'm eagerly awaiting FC's response as that's my choice for Sir's scumpartner.

[Amished]

Yes, I want to see FC's town/scum list.

First, I view both of you (sir/FC) to be extremely scummy by not really giving anything to the game. FC has been hugely non-committal (seriously, read all of his posts, now.)

"Somebody is definitely scum" no real vote on who he thinks.
"I never said you ARE sponge's partner..."
"I find Sponge suspicious, but I'm not automatically calling him scum."
--Agrees with both me and Dram talking between each other, giving me the impression that he knows both of us are town
"However, I've not yet decided my stance on Sponge/Amished."
(two days later, I'm #2 most townie)

Both are scummy, probably scum together as I have anywhere from slight to moderate town read on everybody else.

[Amished]

FC: Scumlist. Now.

[Amished]

O there. What do you have on Dram/Siro that you think that they're scum? I still don't see your "further thoughts" that you said you'd post at the latest 2 days ago.

[Amished]

@ Far_Cry: Which of the two would you vote for then if that's the case.

[Amished]

Mod: Votecount?

[Amished]

I will not be around 13 hours from now, but as I think FC is scum (as well as Sironi) I will vote for him to get us to L-1.

Unvote
Vote: Far_Cry

Vote count modified accordingly. ~Mod.

[Amished]

Gogo activity, without that, people couldn't get those reads At the end, I did have FC pegged, though Siro, you were close. I think what did it was when I actually went back and read FC in ISO and saw that he really didn't do much at all with voting or suspicions.

I didn't see le Chat at all though >.< Glad I didn't have to get him right..

[Amished]

EBWOP: I still say not hammering was pro-town. They didn't hammer because it was scummy to do so. 3 pages in on a lynch is bogus and way too soon.

[Amished]

A-EBWOP: Two games of mine just finished within the last couple days, and I don't expect to pick up that many more. So VP, next time you mod, I'll be able to take on a replacement role should you need it.

[Amished]

Haha, that's just fine. I'm out for the rest of the day, so hopefully not *too* soon... hehe

[Amished]

Nice playing with you too, le Chat. I didn't suspect you as much as I should as you kept me alive as I probably would've as town though. I still have yet to see why you not hammering made you scummy at all.

[Amished]

Wow dram, you need a better team >_> (Yes, blame it on them...)

Anyways, the town all together really did well this game. Having Kise and dram read so strongly town to me basically gave me a 2/3rds chance of hitting scum (which is more than enough in this setup). I think it was Dram that read me as strong town, which helped him.

Oh, question: Siro, how the hell does a replacement coming in and acting pro-town not affect how you view them at all? srsly

[Amished]

lol, I was attacking everyone... If somebody comes in and acts pro-town either they're a good actor or they're actually pro-town. I know it's hard when you're right in the thick of things, but sometimes it helps if I just don't post for a day, forget I'm in the role I am and try to see things from their perspective.

Course, I thought you weren't pro-town either, so I can't really talk...

[Amished]

I was just pinging everyone for reactions. What I got from dram pegged him as pretty sure town imo, Kise looked really pro-town as well when I had an interaction with him. 2 "confirmed" town makes it really easy on me as town as 2/3rds of the last ones I don't have a read on are scum. I can make 1 mislynch outta them. It was mostly in a game like this (nightless) that a playstyle like that pays off.

It's dangerous for a scum to try to fake as it's easy to let your partner off easier than you do to anybody else (and like it has been said, bussing is basically ineffective to a large extent as you can't let them get lynched). Also, it moves the game along which scum don't want (look at how happy they were when Sponge was "here" and they could get an easy mislynch) and it allows everybody to get a good read on the other players which hurts them as well.

Like VP said, I came in with a spark of activity, and that allowed other people besides me to get a proper read on the players and lynch correctly for a good game for the town. Basically I was just wrong about Siro, while if he would've been mislynched, I would've had both you and le Chat as scum, which is obviously the correct pairing.

Look back, Kise was active, so I could have a good back and forth without him taking that much time to respond so his reactions were also more likely to be genuine, because it's really hard to keep things straight when you're trying to not be scummy and keep a lie going. Then Dram was around and I went to him for reactions. You'll notice that I asked them questions about why they thought what they did. If that matched up with why I would think something, that made them more pro-town as I have the same role and therefore the outlook would be very similar. However, when I couldn't understand why a replacement player wouldn't change the mind of a person, I couldn't really understand that as every post almost makes me alter my view on a player a little bit, and they are the same role.

Especially as Dram/Kise I think both had me as acting a lot more pro-town; as well as le Chat. From there, I figured it was more likely for them to make a natural transition to see me as pro-town by my actions by being pro-town themselves, so I narrowed it down that way as well. Oftentimes I go too fast for myself, and after either the person I'm questioning or myself goes to bed, I'll reread both their and my responses to get a feel rather than just hammering away like I generally do.

However, it's kinda my playstyle to try to lead the game, regardless of alignment. I have a newbie game as an alt as scum that's finished that I took over questioning people, then lead my scum to victory by quicklynching, getting lynched because of it and then having my partner be cleared by bussing me. A game I just died in I was one of the more vocal players as scum, and the only reason I died was because of a cop.

[Amished]

lol, always going for the complicated answer, aren't you?

[Amished]

Yeah, nightless where you don't have to worry about being NK'd to stop pursuing everything you can just keep going. Sure the deadlines will mess you up, but if they're constantly delaying responding to you (like FC at times) it's clearly not a pro-town motivation.

[Amished]

EBWOP: I'm still really new here (around 10 games under my belt, a lot of them NK'd N1) so I'm trying to flesh out a style that works for me. So far this seems to be working. We'll see how I do coming up. You just kinda have to tailor it to how you want to look at the game, or how you look at other people. I like seeing them when they're under pressure, others like watching interactions and comparing, others nitpick everything to death (nod to Zazie), others are just unreadable and try to get people out of a comfort zone (zwet, BM). Just up to you to find something that works, and it will take a while.

[Amished]

Wins and losses really do depend on the quality of your team and the team you're going against. I count wins and losses separately by faction. If I'm town, I count it as a win if the team wins, or I find scum. Either I didn't do poorly enough to make us lose or I helped, either way, it's good for me. As scum, however, it's how effectively I am at being unsuspicious. As scum, I've been bussed by a partner fake-claiming cop, by doing something so scummy that I deserved to be lynched for it (got us to Lylo with my partner being unsuspected and we won) and by a real cop. I've also gotten a lynch on a townie in Lylo to win it for us with atrocious partner play. I take all of those as wins, as the town wasn't really suspicious of me for something I didn't mean to do or by some other role outing me randomly. So so far, while I've lost as scum, I haven't lost yet as scum.

[Amished]

Exactly, I tend to do better when I'm interacting with the players, which I had a hard time with earlier on in my mafia career. Just something everybody needs to get comfortable with.