Mini 845 - The Amish Village (Game Over)

[Red_Dye]

vote nuwen

[Red_Dye]

What do you have against my plan, Red?

You are older then me.

[Red_Dye]

unvote vote: artem

[Red_Dye]

Guys, I already got scum. Lets do the sensible thing and lynch him before he gets back.

[Red_Dye]

vote:magnus

He must be lying about being town, since

I

am the one who is town. His point is valid though. We have a considerable number of completed games together both onsite and offsite, and we've yet to be the same alignment.

Moving on.

unvote
vote: Red_Dye

Speedlynch isn't pro-town. Sure, a reasonably swift consensus is nice, and preferable to an 80 page D1 (I've had a few of those), but calling for someone to get lynched before they even get to respond to your points? Scummy.

But its so much easier to get them killed when they can't fight back!

[Red_Dye]

unvote, vote: artem

artem is scum with kairyuu

I like the way you think. Now we just need 5 more.

[Red_Dye]

Hmm? I think he's being too blatantly obvious to be truly serious about his push, but I could see him as extremely ballsy scum. The vote is serious.

Also, I'm going to have to insist on that explanation.

If you agree to bus your partner today, I'll ignore you tomorrow, enticing deal isn't it? Its on the table for the next 30 mins. GO GO GO.

[Red_Dye]

okay.

artem's was the first psudo-serious seeming post. Therefore, artem is scum
Red dye voted artem, giving town vibes
Kairyuu votes red dye giving scum vibes by voting town.

This guy knows whats going on.

[Red_Dye]

ebwop: I want everyone's opinion on the above. I want agreement or disagreement, not sidestepping.

If I answered it seriously then I wouldn'y be able to continue having this much fun! *sidestep*

Votecount 1-1
le Chat (1): Claus
Claus (1): Artem
Artem (2): Red_Dye; Magnus_Orion
Magnus_Orion (1): Herodotus
Red_Dye (1): Kairyuu

[Red_Dye]

That's the point, yes.

I see that you have cleverly side tracked the artem wagon while keeping your vote on it. Well played sir, well played.

[Red_Dye]

While right now I have scum vibes from artem, they are of course based on a single post, and therefore unreliable. I'd like to have further imput from artem to test my read vigorously. Therefore, sidetracking the conversation into a subconversation, while keeping my vote where I think it should be, of course, allows me to get reads on a larger pool of players at once, including artem. There's a method to my madness. This has the side-benefit of ending the RVS, or as you adequately put it, stopping people from being able to "continue having so much fun!"

I've been out of the random voting stage since my second post. Just because I'm being productive doesn't mean I can't have fun! Answering your question does though.

[Red_Dye]

okay.

artem's was the first psudo-serious seeming post. Therefore, artem is scum
Red dye voted artem, giving town vibes
Kairyuu votes red dye giving scum vibes by voting town.

Pfft.

That's my opinion.

It would seem you've chosen to turn down the plea bargain I offered you. Now you have no immunity tomorrow. I promise that you WILL regret it.

[Red_Dye]

Do you even have to ask? You're posting an opinion that calls me scum based on horrid reasoning, and asking my opinion of it. Is it not blatantly obvious that I would bias towards disagreement?

Obviously you aren't going to admit to being scum, but how about explaining your feelings towards your scum partner?

[Red_Dye]

Do you even have to ask? You're posting an opinion that calls me scum based on horrid reasoning, and asking my opinion of it. Is it not blatantly obvious that I would bias towards disagreement?

That you would disagree is predictable, town or scum. "Denial is the most predictable of all human reactions"
I rather more concerned about which points of the reasoning you consider horrid.

1. The first approach to ending the RVS is more likely to be made my town than scum, though it could be made by either.

2. One who would attempt to extend the RVS by opposing said approach is more likely scum than town.

3. One who would call out said opposition as scummy is more likely town than scum.

So essentially you have your reads on myself and Red_Dye flipped, and your reasoning on Artem is null. Good enough for you?

Who exactly has opposed what? I'm pretty sure the only thing I opposed was the stopping of my fun. That and the ending of the random voting stage are far from mutually exclusive. In fact I feel that I've been posting seriously since my second post. Your attempt to spin it as anything else is whats scummy here.

Do you even have to ask? You're posting an opinion that calls me scum based on horrid reasoning, and asking my opinion of it. Is it not blatantly obvious that I would bias towards disagreement?

Obviously you aren't going to admit to being scum, but how about explaining your feelings towards your scum partner?

I assume you mean Artem. I think he's made all of one post, and said post contained no strong tells either way.

Your scum partners first post is so scummy it makes me feel dirty just by reading it. *shudder*. I don't know how any self respecting townie could possibly read it and feel unaffected, unless of course they were even dirtier themselves!

[Red_Dye]

Magnus, can you explain why being the first to make a semi-serious post is indicative of being scum? Furthermore, can you explain why that's indicative of

me

being scum?

My first post was semi-serious in the last two games, both as town and as scum.

Why do you care more what he thinks then what I think? Now I'm a little jealous.

[Red_Dye]

no, he/she has said things that indicate similar lines of thought by bringing up things I was trying to lead the conversation towd before I brought them up.

If by similar lines of thought you mean "Vote Artem!! Fast, before he responds!!! Go go go!!!!!!!111!!!one", then I'd have to disagree. Red_dye has said nothing about my very first post, which, in my understanding, is what your attack on me is all about.

Why do you care more what he thinks then what I think? Now I'm a little jealous.

Because I'm getting a townie read on him. I'll show you why:

You don't think that yea-ing everything a

townie

says can be a scum ploy? In my experience, agreeing with townies can and is often used as a form of scum buddying.

Note the bolded part. This was supposed to appeal to Magnus's point of view. Because he simply took my post at face value, I think that it's indicative of him indeed being pro-town. I think that had he been a scum, the fact that I called him a townie would stand out to him and he would most likely respond with "How do you know I'm a townie".

Am I expected to believe that even though I changed my vote immediately after your vote you DIDN'T think the post was why I changed it? I think the other thing is more an oversight of speed. It didn't even cross my mind as I read your post that it assumed he was town (Probably because I'm assuming hes town). Even if I had noticed its such a minor tell at this point. Your first post is so much worse.

[Red_Dye]

@red dye, he/she takes longer to type, and I don't like to refer to people as "it" could I get a pronoun clarification?

whichever you prefer.

[Red_Dye]

Am I expected to believe that even though I changed my vote immediately after your vote you DIDN'T think the post was why I changed it?

Is there a reason you provided no comment or question then?

Your first post is so much worse.

Same question, then. Why is me being semi-serious in my first post is indicative of me being scum, when I've been doing it in the past several games?

Actually its more of the questions red dye has been asking, some of which I've been trying to abiguosly lead into.

What questions? Look at his ISO. It's full of "Vote Artem!" BS.

I don't need to give a reason with a vote when I make it. I didn't like your question about how he knows ages. You were asking a question of absolutely no relevance at all. It wasn't that the post was semi serious. It was that it was semi serious and full of air at the same time. That last quote isn't mine so I'll leave it to other dude. Man this is totally not fun at all.

[Red_Dye]

I don't need to give a reason with a vote when I make it.

While from an internal viewpoint, this may make sense, from an external standpoint, its more beneficial if you do give reasons. The only reason being is scum tend to find it harder to play if they give overt opinions and clear stances early on.

I didn't mean to imply that I will always vote without reason. Or that I will never give reasons, just that sometimes I will make votes without explaining them till the time is right.

[Red_Dye]

I'd like to hear what red dye thinks about me thinking we are thinking along similar lines.

I think little of it. I've just been saying whatever pops into my head so for someone else to have a remotely similar thought process isn't surprising. I don't feel scum would have asked for this comparison, but of course anything can change.

[Red_Dye]

I don't feel that's a fair question.

[Red_Dye]

@Claus: Simple. Iso post 10 and iso post 4 bye Red_Dye. Iso post 10 makes iso post 4, which I assumed was just Red_Dye being stupid for kicks, look REALLY bad, since he admits himself that it was completely serious.

Just because I was serious doesn't mean I intended to follow threw on everything I said. Things ca be said with other intents.

[Red_Dye]

@Red_Dye

Why isn't it a fair question? Can't you point to one specific post from Artem and say: "Here, this is what smell most scummy to me"?

If not, what smells scummy to you about Artem?

What if there weren't exactly 2 posts that I feel could sum up the case? What if I don't find Artem scummy? I think those 3 pages do the best job of displaying what I wanted to display.

[Red_Dye]

I disagree with that vote.

[Red_Dye]

This account is pretty new, this is its third game. I didn't realize I had hit mafia scum with it yet. My main on the other hand is quite old. Chamber. I was being intentionally the way I was during those first posts to get reactions. My only completed games are with chamber, feel free to search for some.

[Red_Dye]

Clever, but the search function is disabled.

google search works just fine.

[Red_Dye]

@Red_Dye re 69"Just because I was serious doesn't mean I intended to follow threw on everything I said. Things ca be said with other intents." What was your intent in saying "But its so much easier to get them killed when they can't fight back!" if you were 'out of the RVS?' Kairyuu is correct in saying iso-RedDye-10 makes iso-RedDye-4 look contradictory/out-of-place. I don't understand how your answer in 69 justifies the apparent contradiction because I don't understand your statement's alternate intent.

Seeing how people react to what I said.

[Red_Dye]

@Magnus
It's absolutely normal for a townie to comment on something odd about someone's behavior. I may not understand your possible motives, but I do know that what you did is not typical town play, so I suspect it to some degree.

hrm, so, I'm up for HAMMAH!-ing Red_dye, he's obviously scum.

More writing please. The replacement who showed up just a couple hours ago has said lots more than you.
Why do you think Red Dye is scum? I thought he looked okay on the first few pages. And why aren't you voting him if you think he's scum?

@Claus
I don't see anyone I would prefer to vote over Magnus so far.
If I wasn't voting him, I'd probably be voting for Rosso or Mitey to get them to post.

Speaking of that... MiteyMouse, what are your opinions of the people who were active early? (Beyond their being blabbermouths.)

Expecting more from rosso is futile.

[Red_Dye]

@Artem re 51: If he had said "How do you know I'm a townie," but then further stated "mafia know who the townies are, so if you are mafia, you would know." Do you think that's still indicative of pro-scum thought-processes?

I'm not sure what other direction you can take "How do you know I'm a townie" if not "only mafia have perfect alignment information". I suppose there are pro-town roles that know other players' alignment, but "How do you know I'm a townie" is rarely used for role-fishing. It is most often used as an implicit attack on somebody.

All that set aside, the point was that magnus

didn't

make this argument, which means that my appeal to his point of view was natural to him, which, to me, suggests that he's pro-town.

You present a hypothetical situation and then ask me what my read would be? Why are we talking about something that didn't happen, because the only other line of relevancy is Nuwen making that argument against Claus. Are you setting up a hypothetical situation so that you can then argue with me that no, "How do you know I'm a townie" is not pro-scum thinking, thus implicitly defending Nuwen?

Seeing how people react to what I said.

Since you can hide just about anything behind "looking for reaction" excuse, I generally ask players to explain what reactions they were expecting, what reactions they got and how the two relate. So, if you would kindly provide an answer to those questions, I would be greatly indebted. And here's some motivation:

Vote: Red_eye

(L-4)

I also give a few free extra townie points in the beginning of the game to players I like.

Guilty of this as well. <insert an indecisive smily-frowny here>

hrm, so, I'm up for HAMMAH!-ing Red_dye, he's obviously scum.

If you think he deserves a hammer, do you think he also deserves a vote? And if so, why aren't you voting him?

You can see the reactions I got for yourself , they are all in the thread. The thing you need to understand about rosso is that he -really- likes to hammer people. Hes unlikely to vote unless its the hammer.

[Red_Dye]

And what have you learned from these reactions Red Dye? Or put more simply, who is teh scumz?

I've been inadequate to fallow up on the reactions I got because I was really hoping for some more interactions with Kairyuu. With that said only 3 people replied to what I was doing, there is no guarantee any of them are scum, I don't like the suggestion that one of them had to have been. I'm happy with my vote where it is until Kairyuu gets back.

[Red_Dye]

That im not acting pro town.

dipshiht

?
I never said you weren't acting pro-town. As of yet I don't have an opinion concerning that.
I said the action of actively hiding information from the town

for the sake of doing so

was anti-town. Or does this mean that you acknowledge the underlined portion of the previous statement as your motivation in the actions the statement was referring to?

good question.


quote="Rosso Carne"]That's a leading/loaded question of which I really don't have an answer.[/quote]

good answer.

[Red_Dye]

That im not acting pro town.

dipshiht

?
I never said you weren't acting pro-town. As of yet I don't have an opinion concerning that.
I said the action of actively hiding information from the town

for the sake of doing so

was anti-town. Or does this mean that you acknowledge the underlined portion of the previous statement as your motivation in the actions the statement was referring to?

good question.

That's a leading/loaded question of which I really don't have an answer.

good answer.

bad quoting

back at you.

[Red_Dye]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this game. There has been a crazy amount of posting since it started.

First couple of hours aside I actually feel that this game is moving really slowly. I don't like this cop out.

[Red_Dye]

This is not good. Rosso may not be helpful, but I'm not sure if he's town or scum. I don't like this whole lynching based on reasons irrespective of alignment.

He's harmless till you put someone at -1.

[Red_Dye]

Unvote Vote: Kairyuu

My computer was broken for a couple days. I was posting from a wii in some games, but I wasn't posting much, it takes forever to type with their interface.
Anyway, my computer is working fine now so expect resumed activity. I'm quite certain kairyuu is scum.

On rosso. I'm unsure if I've ever played a game with him, but I've know him over scumchat for many years. I'm quite certain I've read games he was in if I wasn't in any myself.

Finally, this is unrelated to who I find scummy, but I don't like policy lynches. I think townies are just as likely to suggest them as scum, but I think they halp the scum infinetly more. Thinking its ever going to teach them a lesson is foolhearty. If you don't like the way someone plays don't join games they are in.

[Red_Dye]

@red_dye: and your opinion on rosso's play in THIS game is?

Consistent with what I've come to expect of him. At this point I have no scum or town read either way. I thought that was impleid by my posts so far or I would have explicitly stated so.

[Red_Dye]

And you don't want to lynch him at this point then?

Hes not the last person I'd want to lynch, but hes far from leading the pack. As I said I don't really have a read on him atm.

[Red_Dye]

If you'd like access to the same meta data that people are using, you are free to take a list of my played games.

If you post links, I'll look through them, but I would really like to not wade through pages of Google results.

I also think that a scum-buddy could be covering up for your playstyle with "he's always like that", especially since it's not from a first-hand experience. Not an avenue that's worthwhile to pursue right now, but definitely worth remembering in case you or Red_eye (or Nuwen to a lesser extent) flip scum.

I'm quite certain kairyuu is scum.

Why?

A very quick look shows our only overlap on this site to be when rosso replaced me once. But I've played a lot of chat games with him, and I know I've read at least some forum games with him in them. Kairyuu is scum because kairyuu is scum.

[Red_Dye]

I'm quite certain kairyuu is scum.

Why?

Kairyuu is scum because kairyuu is scum.

How absolutely NOT helpful. Or is this you admitting that it's pure OMGUS?

I'll get to anything else I still need to address tomorrow.

It has nothing at all to do with you finding me scummy.

[Red_Dye]

Why is refusing to explain myself inherently scummy?

[Red_Dye]

Why is refusing to explain myself inherently scummy?

Because it's easy as hell to say player X is scummy and not explain yourself. If you give no reasons, how is anyone suppose to judge if you are after that person for good reason? By not contributing good reasons, you can easily be faking suspicions that you don't have to be really accountable to, and I hope I don't have to explain to you how that is beneficial to scum. Furthermore, how do you expect to persuade anyone to lynch someone you think is scum if you give no reasons?

It being easy doesn't make it scummy. You can't judge if my reasons are legitimate or not, I give you that much. How am I not accountable for my vote or suspicions? I don't think me not explaining something makes me less accountable. I don't expect to persuade anyone.

[Red_Dye]

How am I not accountable for my vote or suspicions?

Not stating your reasons allows you to be revisionist later or piggyback off of someone else's reasons if they come in after your vote and state an actual case. That is what I mean by accountability. If there is nothing there to judge the validity of, you basically have a blank canvas to fit your needs as they arise.

I don't expect to persuade anyone.

Which I translate to mean that you are content with whatever lynch goes through. What is the vote count on you again?

If I never intend to state any reasons then that entire first point is moot. I'm not content with any lynch but I'm willing to admit that the scum hunting ability of the town as a whole is likely greater then mine on its own, especially given the relatively high caliber of players in this game. I think the issue here is the word persuade, its an evil little word.