Mini 829 - Internal Struggle Mafia (Over)

[Zachrulez]

Vote: JasonT1981

Because I hate Jeff Gordon.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: JasonT1981

Because I hate Jeff Gordon.

You don't like Jeff Gordon, so you put the

third

random vote on Jason?

Unvote, Vote: Zachrulez

That's a bit of an overreaction isn't it? Early bandwagons are a good way to get a game started in the absence of any other discussion. It's 7 votes to lynch anyway, 3 is hardly all that menacing.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote Vote: Hiphop

Would you have us spend the entire day never putting any real pressure on anyone ever?

You seem to give the impression of that stance by avoiding a vote on anyone who has a vote/multiple votes on them.

Some insight to your thought process please.

[Zachrulez]

Will be V/LA August 10-14.

* Noted

Just letting you guys know.

[Zachrulez]

By the way Zach, why did you put the third random vote on Jason?

Why not? What's the point of RVS if it doesn't lead to a bandwagon? You could argue that it looks a bit more suspect if people are intentionally

avoiding

bandwagons in RVS.

It's also pretty foolhardy to think that a bandwagon that's built out of RVS will lead to scum ridden lynch without easily revealing who the scum are.

[Zachrulez]

Who said it's wrong to vote for who you believe is scum? Where do they say that?

[Zachrulez]

OK

The reason I didn't vote earlier is because I was pointing out what was wrong with Hiphops postings... I was not building a case.

after that however the misrep on me was bad yes when he stated I was anxious for his lynch and started me thinking more, and one of the reasons I did not vote then was because it would have put him at L-1 I believe at the time.

As well as that I was not fully convinced he was scum... so non comittal yea, I guess that is in a way.. But when I place a vote (aside from RVS) I am 100% sure I feel that person is scum.

See, this validates the point about you fence sitting. You seem to acknowledge that Hiphop is scummy, and arguably the most scummy player in the game so far, but seem unwilling to vote him.

There are times to be cautious, and there are times that scum might believe that it's a good time to

pretend

to be cautious.

Being 100% convinced of someone's guilt in a mafia game is generally impossible. Using that line as a reason not to vote is simply not valid.

That said, I'm still happy with my vote on Hiphop. I can't understand why the bandwagon on him has derailed. I also don't see what all the fuss is about Toro. His play looks like textbook newbie play to me. That's just the way I'm seeing it anyway.

[Zachrulez]

Going with the flow is generally considered suboptimal play, and even scummy by some.

You are expected to think for yourself, and give your own insight in reaction to the events of the game.

A go with the flow attitude, if present in enough players, promotes quick lynching with minimal thought, and as the saying goes short days hurt the town.

Your play style is potentially very dangerous to the town. You need to learn as you go and develop your play style into something that is more than just going with the flow.

[Zachrulez]

From what I can see Shrine hasn't posted since the 5th.

Mod, may we have prods on Shrine, jason and Zach?

*Yes, I just arrived home. Prodding...

I'm here. I am going to try to do a catch up read before my vacation starts.

Reading now.

[Zachrulez]

I will be leaving for my trip later today, and will be back on Wednesday.

I expect I will be kicking back from my week off of work at that point though, so posting won't be a priority. But given that I'm already behind in this game, I'll see what I can do about getting a catchup post up.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach
I'll wait for that post. But before the 10th you were very lurkey (outlined again by the rest of the town) so I would like you to explain your reasons why you didn't post.

Laziness. I was close to vacation at that point, and had trouble finishing my reading. (quote wars are not a fun thing to read.) I figured on catching up fully when I got back.

Am I the only one who is irritated by how far Idiot King has taken this random vote accusation with Red Coyote?

Why can't the vote have the purpose RC claims it does?

Pages upon pages of quote wars, built from that nonexistent foundation of an accusation...

I started somewhere around page 7, ran into that quote war, and bam! It's like trying to read through a brick wall.

[Zachrulez]

There were a few early wagons on Toro and Hiphop.

I wasn't overly impressed with the bandwagon on Toro or the reasoning for it.

I think Hiphop still deserves scrutiny and am a bit surprised that IK doesn't seem to be interested in lynching him at all.

In response to Hiphop in one paticular post, IK posts this.

I don't even need to build a case for why I think hiphop is scum. He'll end up doing it himself. He basically already has.

Come on, let's do this.

So yeah, I see this as another way of calling Hiphop obv scum, yet no vote.

So that begs the question for me. What about RC is scummier than Hiphop for you IK?

[Zachrulez]

Gut vote is basically a cute way of saying that your vote doesn't have any real strong reasoning.

You can play by gut all your want, but if you can't justify your vote, it don't have any credibility.

And your vote on IK did look pretty opportunistic, considering the situation you were in before a bandwagon built up on him. So now you call the vote gut when people wonder about the timing of the vote?

[Zachrulez]

Potential contradiction?

I

was

going with the flow.

Going with the flow is generally considered suboptimal play, and even scummy by some.

You are expected to think for yourself, and give your own insight in reaction to the events of the game.

A go with the flow attitude, if present in enough players, promotes quick lynching with minimal thought, and as the saying goes short days hurt the town.

Your play style is potentially very dangerous to the town.

You need to learn as you go and develop your play style into something that is more than just going with the flow.

(emphasis added).

I wasn't overly impressed with the bandwagon on Toro or the reasoning for it.

Here's something I found that may be of interest. Did Zach or anyone else want to comment on this? It seemed like Zach thought the reasoning was valid at the time (that Toro was just piggybacking on other player's thoughts and "going with the flow"), but here he said that he wasn't impressed with it. I looked to see if Zach made another post or something that implied that Toro impressed him with his response, but I couldn't find anything.

I have seen this kind of play before sadly. It is generally seen in newbies who do not participate enough in the early game, and the player who behaves like this is often an early lynch target.

I understand why people find it suspicious, but I have seen it before, and from my experience tend to find it consistent with newbie behavior rather than any kind of definitive scumtell.

It's still anti-town and needs to be corrected, I'm just not convinced that lynching these kind of problematic players is the best play when there's potential for them to learn better play through more experience.

Does that make my position any clearer for you?

[Zachrulez]

@Zach perhaps you should look at post 354.

354 does not impress me.

Your vote is based off of gut, the reasoning of others and no reasoning of your own.

[Zachrulez]

based on first page rvs interactions i have come to the conclusion that idiotking is scum.

vote: idiotking

Could you possibly be any less detailed?

Could you explain what brings you to this conclusion, and confirm that your reasoning brought you to this conclusion after actually reading the entire game? (It's hard to know if you actually have since you're only line of posting refers to the interactions of RVS.)

I'd also like to know what you think about everyone else.

[Zachrulez]

Don, why the hell did you claim power unprovoked like that?

[Zachrulez]

*sigh*

Looks like everybody's suspicious of me.

Why don't you just get this damn thing over with and lynch me already?

Then Don's vote will be

proven

to be a bullshit vote, DRK and RC will be shown to be tunneling me (I admit I'm tunneling them, but that doesn't mean I don't still see them as scum), and a whole lot of info will be gained for the town.

Is this OK with everyone? I'm tired of going around and around with this.

Roleclaim: Vanilla Townie

I won't even be missed. Just end this stupidity, please.

Fine.

Vote: Idiot King

I won't even get into the stupidity of claiming with only 2 votes on you.

[Zachrulez]

Zach I think you need to unvote before you vote again.

The rules don't explicitly say so. It should count.

[Zachrulez]

And Jason tries way too hard to blame myself and Toro for a lynch that hasn't even happened yet, while stating multiple times how little information we'd get out of lynching IK. Why the need to repeat that argument over and over?

Consider yourself

FOSed.

If we weren't so close to the deadline, I'd actually vote you for that.

[Zachrulez]

Don beat me to this. Don't point out those kinds of things. But in your defense Toro did a poor job on the breadcrumb, it reads as a soft-claim.

I'm actually siding with IK on this one. I read toro's statement as a soft-claim, not breadcrumbing. In fact, I think that might have been his intention, but I don't think it would be wise to press the matter as of yet, especially since that was potentially our second soft-claim (dj's being the first).

I'd prefer we keep the gut townie alive and look at the others while we still have a good couple of days.

My gut is saying weird things to me about IK, but for the most part, I agree with this.

Vote: jason

Jason wouldn't be as good of an information lynch, but he's definitely scummy and less blatantly so than IK, which could be more telling of scum trying to blend in.

It would be nice if ryan, shrine, or RC could stop in soon so we have a better idea of where the town is leaning and (hopefully) find someone whose lynch the majority of the town supports.

Wait what? IK is scummier than Jason, yet you're voting for Jason? That makes no sense at all.

[Zachrulez]

Wait what? IK is scummier than Jason, yet you're voting for Jason? That makes no sense at all.

I said Jason was

less blatantly

scummy than IK, nothing about how scummy they were in comparison.

Most people who play mafia on this site know all the common and obvious tells and can reasonably avoid them. We still have to be careful of players who are blatantly scummy (like IK), but Jason (to me) feels very suspicious for exhibiting more subtle scummy behavior, as if he's playing more to avoid giving off obvious tells than he is to actually play a pro-town game.

Yes, it does appear I'm wagon-hopping because I probably am. Since page 7, I've been mostly concerned with IK because I was getting a strong scum read on him. More recently, he seems slightly less scummy (I'm still very suspicious of him though), while Jason's been seeming scummier with each post. Now that I see the town doesn't support an IK lynch, it makes sense to switch wagons. It's not like I don't find Jason scummy. Plus, an iso-read on Jason doesn't exactly make him look pro-town...

Overall, I'd put Jason and IK about even in scumminess. The deciding factor before was information, which an IK lynch would be better for. When DTM mentioned gut feelings, it made me reconsider. My gut doesn't exactly say townie on IK, but it gives me a very confused read, whereas it's screaming scum on Jason, which an iso-read confirmed.

More gut talk? You are starting to sound like Hiphop?

The thing about gut is that gut feelings are basically baseless unless you can connect the reasoning that is triggering your gut feeling in the first place.

Jason makes a point on you, you ARE vote hopping. In fact, you seem like you're really trying to gauge who the town thinks looks worse between IK and Jason and then vote accordingly, rather than going by your own reasoning.

I had a look at IK wagon, and noticed that you had unvoted Talbot right as support for the IK wagon started building up. It wasn't until the support for the wagon started deflating and scrutiny on Talbot started building again over how scummy his vote looked that you were once again willing to vote for him.

I'm also finding it interesting the way you seem to be looking to worm your suspicion away from IK as more and more of the town seems to come to a consensus that he is town based largely on gut and little else for reasoning. What I'm seeing is not strength in conviction, but vote hopping in an attempt to park your vote in a safe place.

Your suspicions do not strike me as genuine.

Unvote: Vote: DRK

I really don't like IK at all, I don't understand why people think he's town. I've heard points made about how his play makes no sense from a scum perspective, but it doesn't make any sense from a town perspective either. His play doesn't make any sense at all, except for the fact that it's scummy. I can only conclude that IK is likely town because it seems like so many people are actually bothered by his play. (But not actually suspicious of him) I am getting the general feeling that it's actually scum running away from his lynch and not town, being afraid to be tied to his lynch later in the game. I have my eye on everyone who came up with a BS excuse to leave that wagon.

You don't claim when you're not under threat of lynch, and you certainly don't ask to be lynched. IK should die simply for the latter, but it seems like we have a growing number of people who are unwilling.

Hiphop actually alleviates my suspicions with his vote of Talbot. I just got a genuine pro-town vibe from his vote change. (Where as DRK's looked far more opportunistic.)

I'm having a bit of a change of heart on Toro. Now he's not only not scumhunting, but is quite happy to vote IK right after I do. (Notice he scrutinizes IK but doesn't seem to find it worthy of a vote until he sees my post.)

I'm pretty much willing to lynch any of DRK, IK, Toro, Talbot at deadline, with DRK and Toro being the top 2, and Talbot and IK being toward the bottom of my preference.

[Zachrulez]

For the record, Talbot is Jason. I call him that out of habit. (I made an effort to call him Jason and failed to do so on a consistent basis.)

[Zachrulez]

I agree with you that we should look for people with BS reasons to drop IK and I think you have the worst. ]Your case on DRK is seems weak when he openly admits that he is hopping to the more popular wagon and considering that they are both ones he already preferred. Your sudden interest in toro and disinterest in IK is just as opportunistic as your original vote on IK. Overall I think you look worst from IK Wagon II.

unvote, vote:ZachRulez

DRK openly admitting to hopping to the more popular wagon doesn't make it any less scummy in my eyes.

Think what you want about my sudden interest in Toro. The way he followed me onto that wagon was just horrible.

You saying I look the worst on the IK wagon while previously scrutinizing Don with a major FOS is hilarious though. Even more interesting than that is that you hadn't really mentioned me as a suspect prior to the above post. (At least not since your previous vote of me which you cast while I was V/LA.)

[Zachrulez]

I agree with you that we should look for people with BS reasons to drop IK and I think you have the worst. ]Your case on DRK is seems weak when he openly admits that he is hopping to the more popular wagon and considering that they are both ones he already preferred. Your sudden interest in toro and disinterest in IK is just as opportunistic as your original vote on IK. Overall I think you look worst from IK Wagon II.

unvote, vote:ZachRulez

DRK openly admitting to hopping to the more popular wagon doesn't make it any less scummy in my eyes.

Think what you want about my sudden interest in Toro. The way he followed me onto that wagon was just horrible.

You saying I look the worst on the IK wagon while previously scrutinizing Don with a major FOS is hilarious though. Even more interesting than that is that you hadn't really mentioned me as a suspect prior to the above post. (At least not since your previous vote of me which you cast while I was V/LA.)

We just had a new bandwagon collapse and you admit we should be scrutinizing those who dropped. Don't pretend you're exempt. You admit I did vote you and I think your recent series of opportunistic moves looks like scum trying to dance through a chaotic deadline.

Plus, it would be stupid to vote a claimed power role at this point.

Who said I'm exempt?

And who dropped from that bandwagon? How likely is DRK to actually be lynched? What about Red Coyote? Toro?, HipHop?

The problem here is that we don't really have any time left and the most viable lynches have already claimed or soft claimed, and anyone else we run up will NOT have a fair chance to claim a role before being lynched.

Do I have that about right?

[Zachrulez]

How far away is the deadline? I just looked at the time of the deadline, and am translating it to 8am. If that is the case, I might actually have to change my vote, because I'm not sure if I will have the chance tomorrow morning.

I had the impression that it was tomorrow evening...

[Zachrulez]

Paradox, please respond to 573.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach
I can see why you would find vote-hopping suspicious, but is it really unwarranted here, given what I've said?

Also, I think gut feelings can be very useful, even if you don't know where they come from. For example, let's say for example you feel like proving Fermat's Little Theorem (the following is actually something that happened to me) and you need somewhere to start and the following theorem you happen to remember comes to mind: pCk is divisible by p for k=0, 1, ..., p-1. Why? I don't know, but it has to do with prime numbers. Gut feeling number 1. Next, induction pops into mind. Why? Why not. Gut feeling number two. Presumably, you're going to induct on a, since inducting over the primes isn't particularly feasible. At this point, the proof is very straightforward. Induction using the binomial theorem. QED. Going on gut feelings, the proof took about a minute to find.

Of course, that situation isn't an exact analogue to the current one, but hopefully it had some relevance. I don't know what exactly makes my gut tell me Jason's scum, but something about his posts does. Even if I can't see a clear path through his posts that say he's scum (though his posts do look scummy), like I couldn't see a clear route through the proof (though I could see the outlines of it), my gut (hopefully) shows me more clearly that he is scum.

Sorry for the math examples, but for some reason they're the first things that come to mind >.<

A gut feeling in this situation isn't going to help the town very much given the fact that you've chosen to put pressure on Jason in a deadline situation without much of a substantial case beyond your gut feeling, in a situation where he will not have the chance to claim before being lynched.

In fact that whole not have a chance to claim thing really makes me weary about lynching anyone but IK at this point. Deadlines suck.

Unvote Vote: IK

[Zachrulez]

I would like to see a deadline extension. I'd also like to see everyone actually take advantage of the extension to get as much as we can in the way of reactions as possible.

[Zachrulez]

I agree with you that we should look for people with BS reasons to drop IK and I think you have the worst. ]Your case on DRK is seems weak when he openly admits that he is hopping to the more popular wagon and considering that they are both ones he already preferred. Your sudden interest in toro and disinterest in IK is just as opportunistic as your original vote on IK. Overall I think you look worst from IK Wagon II.

unvote, vote:ZachRulez

DRK openly admitting to hopping to the more popular wagon doesn't make it any less scummy in my eyes.

Think what you want about my sudden interest in Toro. The way he followed me onto that wagon was just horrible.

You saying I look the worst on the IK wagon while previously scrutinizing Don with a major FOS is hilarious though. Even more interesting than that is that you hadn't really mentioned me as a suspect prior to the above post. (At least not since your previous vote of me which you cast while I was V/LA.)

We just had a new bandwagon collapse and you admit we should be scrutinizing those who dropped. Don't pretend you're exempt. You admit I did vote you and I think your recent series of opportunistic moves looks like scum trying to dance through a chaotic deadline.

Plus, it would be stupid to vote a claimed power role at this point.

Who said I'm exempt?

And who dropped from that bandwagon? How likely is DRK to actually be lynched? What about Red Coyote? Toro?, HipHop?

You criticized the fact that I haven't mentioned you as a previous suspect when you just said you were looking at people coming off the wagon. But you are one of those people jumping off the wagon so I think it makes sense I'd be starting to look at you. You jumped to a case on DRK while leaving yourself open to all the popular wagons including jason, ik and toro.

Well we are/were in a deadline situation. Any lynch is better than none is it not?

[Zachrulez]

Nope. I think info should be made readily available for all the town to see. If somebody breadcrumbs/soft claims, there's no point

not

to call them out on it. I hate soft claims.

Besides, I don't think Toro even has a power role. I've seen too many scum say things like "Oh look at me, I've got an awesome game-winning power role if you just let me live one more day!" to trust it. Not to mention he wasn't at immediate risk of being lynched. There was no call for it.

Funny coming from you. Or are you different/special because you're not a power role and full claimed rather than softclaimed?

[Zachrulez]

Zach, there's a difference between being willing to vote people at deadline, and developing suspicions on those people. In a relatively short time you've developed suspicions of Toro, Jason, and IK. There were previous cases on them since much earlier, but they all became suspects of yours as it became clear they would be the best potential lynches. I understand being willing to lynch, but your suspicions read as opportunistic. All of them basically besides the one on DRK which is just strange. It makes sense to hop off the IK wagon and look for another possible lynch before deadline. But you put your vote in a strange place so close to deadline while saying how you now suspect all the possible lynches. Why wouldn't you vote someone with potential for a lynch if you suspect so many? Unless you're purposely trying to look like you're not doing what you criticized DRK for. It doesn't look genuine. You look opportunistic and your vote on DRK may just be an attempt to mask that.

All 3 of Jason, Toro, and IK look suspicious. DRK looks suspicious to me.

I'm most willing to lynch IK now, and I would pressure DRK if we had more time. I like to have my vote on people I would have it on under normal circumstances until pretty close to the last minute actually. (As close as I can get with my availability anyway.)

I will take a lynch of Jason or Toro if they are the only ones I can get, but would prefer others.

Take that as you will. If my actions look opportunistic because I didn't explain my thought process very well then that's just the way they look.

[Zachrulez]

I am town-aligned.

IK still looks like the best choice for lynch, being that the next top 2 candidates for lynch are either power or scum.

[Zachrulez]

Lot of WIFOM on DRK's kill. Rather than drown in it, I think it's best that someone claim the kill if it was done by a vig, otherwise it's safe to assume that we have a serial killer walking about that crosskilled.

Toro's roleblocker target looks awfully convenient given the fact that the person he claims to have targeted is dead.

[Zachrulez]

Oh, and I'm doubting the existence of a bus driver in a mini normal setup, but I have been surprised before.

[Zachrulez]

The WIFOM that is trying to analyze what happend over the night phase, as several players have attempted to do over multiple posts.

Eh, I guess you're right about a vig claim being a bad idea. Kinda operating under the logic that a vig would be more willing to claim than an SK, but it would also put a vig at risk if that was the case.

Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.

[Zachrulez]

Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa.

What I had was a lot of people I was willing to lynch over no lynching in a deadline situation.

As for not throwing down a vote. Is a quick lynch on Toro really what you're driving for right now? Personally I'd prefer to do some re-reading and more thinking.

[Zachrulez]

Also Zach I don't like how you mention suspicion of Toro's actions but don't give suspicion of toro himself or put down a vote. You had a bunch of suspects yesterday, but even with a confirmed scum you don't have anywhere to put your vote? Considering how you went after DRK maybe you should be the one telling us who to go after and not vice-versa.

What I had was a lot of people I was willing to lynch over no lynching in a deadline situation.

As for not throwing down a vote. Is a quick lynch on Toro really what you're driving for right now? Personally I'd prefer to do some re-reading and more thinking.

Well it's awfully easy to float along when you're doing that. I mean your first post was just an echo of things people had said before you. I'd say that about most people you've suspected besides DRK, which makes me wonder.

Let's not be hypocritical here, that's pretty much what you did agreeing with how unbelievable toro's claim sounded.

The following posts pretty much suspect me for doing that, without leaping to the same vote that you did.

Quite interested that you flipped to believing that a vig claim is best after attacking me for calling for one, which also calls your interest in lynching a claimed roleblocker into question when it seems to have prevented a mafia kill.

[Zachrulez]

Still, I'm going to be very uneasy if I hear a vig claim from someone about to be lynched later.

^^ yes. if vig doesn't claim today then we would have no choice but to disbelieve the claim later. better to have this particular role out in the open. the fact that a mafia was killed means there may be a protective role on board. as i said: one successful vig shot is more than we can ask for. let the other town pr's work. by lynching toro we will also have a better idea of what happened last night. i.e. if he is town then he most liekly did block drk and very well may have been what prevented the other nk. i see no reason for a vig to hide. i refer you to mini 712- capital of the world where vig claimed day 1, fired night 1, and town went on to win. not exactly the same scenario, but that game changed the way i look at vig's. i am always skeptical of the late game claiming vig as it is poor town play. if vig doesn't claim today we have to work on the assumption that there isn't one. that is my stand here. i am willing to discuss this matter, but i doubt anyone will change my mind.

I agree a vig will be more dangerous than useful at this point. So if they really want to help the town they might as well claim.

Protection will come.

Vote: Paradoxombie

Feel free to explain this post.

[Zachrulez]

I placed a vote because I wanted to do something while I rethought things. I'd like to reread too but I still want to pressure people over things going on now.

How is it interesting if I change my mind, when you did the same? Now that's hypocrisy. I still don't think a claimed vig will clarify anything, but I agree that the town has a better shot if they claim now.

And I wanted to lynch that roleblocker yesterday but I decided to wait to see if he came up with a BS night action today.

It's interesting because you found me suspicious for the position you are now taking.

[Zachrulez]

And personally, I have limited experience with vigilantes, having only run into the role twice on mafiascum. (One of the two times in which I was a dead vig before the role could factor in the game.)

So whose change in position is more interesting taking that into account?

[Zachrulez]

we have no guarantee that toro rb'd anyone. he should most certainly be lynched, especially due to the fact that drk avoided him like the plague on day 1. i don't find it suspicious for paradox to change positions when posed with the reasoning i gave him. 721 seems like a bit of rolefishing, so more scumpoints for zach in this exchange. let's analyze some other players before we end the day, as unless we get a scumclaim i think we can agree that toro is the lynch.

i'm pretty sure paradox is town and am on the fence with zach, so i would like other players to post their opinions.

And 718 wasn't a soft claim?

I know more than I'm leading on, but I'm not about to help Paradox concoct lies by revealing what I know before he explains that post.

[Zachrulez]

If you're going to softclaim, don't act like I'm the one doing the outting when you're doing it yourself.

[Zachrulez]

Hmmmm, a reread of Toro shows him going from finding Hiphop the most suspicious player to outright defending his actions on day 1.

I'm curious as to the thought process which prompted this change in opinion from Toro.

[Zachrulez]

The how did not mean how did you do it. I believed you did the NK. My question is how did you manage to pick two scum out of all the players here, especially in the first two nights? And you answered that in your above post.

Interesting how if Toro was scum, the town would of attacked me, but because Toro is not scum, Ryan attacks me.

@Ryan-What about Don, do you believe he is a PR?

Given what has occurred, with Toro being a town RB, and Jason being a Ninja, I think we DO have a third PR, and seeing as Don is the only one that claimed it, I think he may be it. I think save myself and toro, there is only one mroe town PR, since we got a mafia goon.

To be honest, if we have a ninja, we most likely have a town watcher/tracker. Which means, if someone is able to CC Don's generic PR claim saying they are town watcher/tracker, I feel it would be safe to say that Don is lying.

Now see, this is interesting.

... However, I have reason to believe that Don is not scum.

[Zachrulez]

ebwop:

a) i am not a watcher/tracker.

b) i have been in several games where power roles didn't add up, so saying we "must" have a watcher/tracker would be fallacious. noting that ryan did not in fact say "must", but my point should be taken into account.

He does happen to be right in this instance. Town does have a watcher.

[Zachrulez]

fair enough. i suppose this has to do with your opinion of me?

Yeah. It does.

[Zachrulez]

I could reveal what I know, but what if I said it was likely to fully out Don's role? Would you still want my results?

[Zachrulez]

Night 1 my target was Don Johnson

Night 2 it was Ryan.

[Zachrulez]

And what did your results reveal?

Now that Don has full claimed.

Nobody visited don on night one.

Don visited Ryan on night two.

[Zachrulez]

Hate to break it to you, but Don's not scum... unless you can explain why Don would bother to use his power on anyone other than Jason last night?

The plan sounds good to me. I will watch Don tonight.

[Zachrulez]

Hate to break it to you, but Don's not scum... unless you can explain why Don would bother to use his power on anyone other than Jason last night?

The plan sounds good to me. I will watch Don tonight.

I though don used his powers on Ryan, not Jason. If he used his powers on Jason to block a night kill (aka the vig kill) it would point to the fact that he's mafia doctor. >>;; Explain yourself on this.

What is there to explain? That didn't happen. You apparently didn't understand my point that a scum don johnson would have protected Jason instead of Ryan.

[Zachrulez]

He has 4 votes by my count. That should be a lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Zach, did Don visit you?

He will have to answer that question for you.

I do know that no one visited him.

[Zachrulez]

Acknowledging the prod. I've been kinda stuck trying to gather my thoughts over the past few days on this game.

I'll try to get a post up later today.

Though without getting specific, I think Ryan is the best lynch candidate today.

[Zachrulez]

While Jason did flip scum, you shot at a claimed lie detector when the town generally agreed that you should hold your fire.

[Zachrulez]

See, Don did visit Ryan on night 2.

If his action was not a doc protect, what was it?

I really can't see Don as scum.

[Zachrulez]

Vote: paradoxombie

[Zachrulez]

It took way too long for Ryan to meet his end.

My plan was for him to be lynched after the no kill, but after that didn't work out I decided not to push my luck plus I was a bit concerned about a tie going to the SK (Which is what I thought Ryan was likely to be.)

[Zachrulez]

To that end I'm not sure why I wasn't lynched on day 3. I thought my efforts to try to save Talbot on day 1 were pretty transparent, but maybe that's just because I knew who the scum were.

[Zachrulez]

Lame. Zach seemed obvious scum to me, but for some reason I always go after more confusing answers. I won't make this mistake a third time.

One of my tactical errors I think was not pushing for Redcoyote's kill on night one over yours. He scared the crap out of me, and did even more so on day 2 when he was calling you town with seeming certainty.

The game probably would have gone far more smoothly for the scumteam had we flipped the order we attempted your guy's kills.

[Zachrulez]

DRK

To me it wasn't the bussing that convinced me of Town-Zach, it was his watcher role that confirmed the alignments/stories of both Don and Ryan which to me felt he was town.

It helped that I actually was a watcher and didn't have to lie about my results.