Open 159 - Lovers Mafia - Game over before 823

[Kmd4390]

Guess I'm last to confirm. Now if Mastin were here, I'd be scum for sleeping last night. XD

[Kmd4390]

You are scum if I die N1.

[Kmd4390]

And besides.. my grudge is long-fulfilled.
I have no need to kill you anymore.

um.. I'm not feeling any romance between us.

PS.
I also agree with incognito.

I see where this is going.

[Kmd4390]

2 townies, 2 mafia = town loss according to the mafia win condition. What made you think otherwise?

Assume A and B are town. C and D are scum.

Mod- Day 3 begins.
A-

Vote C

. Whoever the other town player is, hurry up and vote.
B-

Vote C

.

Now, look at the Mod's rules.

7. Once the majority of votes on a player has been reached, that person will be lynched. All votes and unvotes will not be counted. Everyone but the lynchee is allowed to talk during the Twilight phase. If the majority has not been reached by the deadline, then the person with the most votes will be lynched. You may vote No Lynch if you’d like.

In the event of a tie, whoever received the most votes first is lynched.

2 town can still lynch 2 scum.

Camn, why didn't you confirm as soon as you opened your role PM?

How do you know this?

[Kmd4390]

No response to post 17?

[Kmd4390]

Mod, which of Rule 7 and the scum win condition is false?

Incog, fair enough.

[Kmd4390]

Can we start? I really wanna vote camn.

[Kmd4390]

Incog, (I have not read Camn's post at the time I write this), I agree with you on everything except the OMGUS. She seemed to be pretty obviously joking. Anyone who knows Camn could tell that was a joke. But you do have a point about taking 2 hours and then trying to cover it. Honestly though, I'd think if Camn were lying, she'd do a better job of it.. Let's see what she has to say.

Haylen, no. The role PM is public knowledge and not modkillable.

Vote Spy

for being scum with Haylen. Not joking.

[Kmd4390]

Meh.
May I ask what evidence you have?

There's no "evidence". I'm only a vanilla townie. Are you?

Gotcha. What if I quoted one and said it was mine though? Would that be modkillable? If not, why? If so, why?

In an open game, only a terrible Mod would modkill for that.

I don't agree with OMGUS voting, it's a waste of time and a waste of a vote. Tally said it's not a scumtell though, in NG771 (which has finished).

Depends how it is done.

Kmd, what happened to this? You apparently had similar reasons as Incog for voting camn, yet now that you had the chance, you voted SpyreX, and immediately tied him to Haylen--without presenting anything resembling reasoning.

Well Camn became obvtown, as did you and Incog.

Kmd:

I think I know camn fairly well. I've played with her in quite a few games too, so I think I'm more than familiar with her sense of humor. However, I really don't think she was joking around there -- her follow-up post after you questioned me about her confirmation made me think she was outside of joking around.

If you really know her that well, you know that she tends to joke around while also being serious in the same post. She has fun in games, even when some points she is making are completely serious. So I think she was being serious about most everything else while making a couple of jokes. Camn, am I right?

I'm curious about this vote not just because of the thing Korts pointed out in post 45, but also because I received a fairly decent pro-town vibe from SpyreX's opening posts, particularly his post 15 where he seemed to be genuinely working out a way to "break" the game for town, so I'm curious as to why you seem to be receiving an opposite vibe from him. In fact, you seemed to imply that you were following his frame of thought in your post 20. Why do you think he's scum and, more specifically, why do you think he's scum with Haylen?

In this setup, 2 days is all town gets. Slicey's scum role PM also says outnumber OR equal town. Chances were slim that we were going to get a 3rd Day. Spy, as scum, may have realized that, but asked anyway to look better. Also, with you, Korts, and Camn all being town, what other choices do I have? It's Spy and Haylen. It's gotta be.

[Kmd4390]

Spy, I agreed with Incog until reading what Camn had to say.

I don't think it makes you scum to have asked about a Day 3. I'm just pointing out why it doesn't make you town.

1.) She is reacting how she always does as town.
2.) His efforts in pressuring Camn, whether to start discussion or because he actually believes she is scum, look genuine and helpful.
3.) He's reminding me of the game where he went after me out of the gate to get the town going somewhere. He was town there.
4.) Wait, when did I say you were scum for mirroring something I did? I voted you over Haylen because.. I don't know, actually. I'd be fine voting either of you.

[Kmd4390]

That sucks. I've lost posts before..

I blame Spyrex.

You thought you were closing out the QT?

[Kmd4390]

You thought you were closing out the QT?

That took me a while to understand what you meant there. How would you know whether a QT was being used unless you're scum?

I assumed it based on common practice. Also, if you look at the scum PM, it says scum may daytalk "here: XXXXX". I assume the X's are a QT link.

If there is a QT, then I don't have access to it. because I'm not scum. The page I accidentally closed was Spyrex's wiki page, so I could quote what he had written about meta, which answers

k.

Can you please explain to us how one can believe another to be scum without evidence? Sure, you say you're a vanilla townie. Hypo-town Kmd would know there are two mafia out there, and 3 more town. But he would still have to work out which two of the 5 are scum. And it's too risky to randomly flail around and point fingers saying 'you're scum, you're scum.' In fact, that's a sign of a person being scum. It also appear as though you are in the early stages of tunnelling me, which is scummy behaviour according to Tarhalindur.

Well, I'm only a vanilla, so the most I can give is my opinions and reasons for them. I believe three players to be town for the reasons I listed earlier. That leaves you and Spy who have yet to convince me you are town. So because I have the most doubts about you and Spy, that's who I think is scum at this point.

And you say that I am tunneling on YOU. Not you and Spy, just YOU. This worries me. It looks like you are paranoid that I am about to get you lynched. That or maybe you realize that your game is over as soon as Spy is lynched. Guys, we have the scum team. Can we lynch them now?

Oh, and you didn't answer my question. Are you vanilla? I think you are a lover with Spy, which would explain the connection. Are you?

May I ask when? At this stage in the game, no one is obviously town. I am beginning to think you are scum who has decided the easiest people to create a mislynch with were myself, and possibly Spyrex, although I am unsure about his alignment. It is possible that you were bussing him by voting him...

I already said what made me think they are town. And actually, the easiest lynches for me to push would probably be, yes, you, due to lack of experience compared to the rest of the players in this game (no offense meant by that at all as you could be a very good player, just not as experienced) and Camn just because of my knowledge of her meta and the way I could easily twist it to make her look scummy. Spy is anything but an easy lynch.

And there won't be any bussing in this game. We may see

distancing

, but no bussing.

Also, I want your opinion of Spy now.

I answered this already, but I'll answer it again. First place I look when meta-ing people: Wikipage, it either a) gives information on the playstyle of the player, or b) gives a list of games they've played. I was refering to your General Mafia Thoughts, point 1, where you express your contempt for meta. That is the tab I thought I was closing, but closed my ms tab instead.

Heh, may be offtopic, but I'm curious. What have you learned from my wiki? Did you notice the game I played with this setup before?

So:
Because he appears to know there is a QT, which is a slip in my eyes; because he gives no evidence for suggesting I'm scum but says I am anyway; and because of the earlier tunneling behaviour. I am going to:

So, listing your points:
-knows there is a QT
-gives no evidence
-tunneling

my defense to each:
-Assumption I made, as I'm sure others did as well.
-Process of elimination is what I have. Is something wrong with that?
-You said earlier in the post that I was tunneling on YOU when I am voting Spy. I have two suspects 3 pages into the game. There are 2 scum in this game. Do you expect that I should have more suspects than that?

Unvote
Vote: Kmd4390

(Fix'd the username for you)

*Waits for "It's not OMGUS because there are reasons and you haven't voted yet"*

Unvote, Vote Haylen

*Waits for "Your vote is OMGUS because Haylen voted you first"*

[Kmd4390]

So you don't really think I'm scum but you're voting me? That's what that says reading between the lines. If I was scum I would've already read the mafia PM, wouldn't I?

You are twisting what I said. When I say "if you look", I'm saying that it's right there as public knowledge that scum have a QT.

I am convinced that you think me and Spyrex would be the easiest to lynch, which is why you're attacking me. You've attacked me more than you have him. How on earth can I convince you I'm town without having you lynch me? That's just ridiculous.

Spy is not an easy lynch. That doesn't matter though. And TBH, I don't think you can convince me you are town. I'm sold on you being scum, so I'm more worried about convincing everyone else of this than anything.

Go check out my games, you will see I'm always paranoid of being lynched, whether i'm town or scum. For some reason I'm more paranoid as town. Why? Cause the only person you can truly trust in these games is yourself. Town don't know they've got the wrong guy til the flip, see what I mean? No one except yourself knows your alignment, therefore, the only person you can trust is yourself. With scum, it's the same, although you're more worried about your partner betraying you. See what I'm getting at here? I am a naturally paranoid person, it says so on my wiki.

If this is genuine, I need to step away from the game for a second and give you some advice. Winning is more important than survival. I'd suggest remembering that. Maybe even sig it. Don't worry too much about being lynched once in a while. It is frustrating, but it happens. I mean, yeah, defend yourself when you are attacked. But don't think "if I say this, will it sound scummy?". Instead think, "If I say this, will my opinions be out and impact the game in a positive way?". And if your buddy attacks you, don't think of it as betrayal. Realize that they want to win and are doing what is necessary [disclaimer, if your buddy were to attack you in this game, it

would

be betrayal and completely retarded].

Ok, back to this game.

How come? Please explain why? Surely they are one and the same. Have you and your partner decided not to do that? Yeah, and how would you know if we were going to see distancing if you didn't already know the scums strategy?

Let me share my definition of each term first:
bussing: Attacking your buddy with intent to lynch
distancing: Calling your buddy scummy. No intent to lynch.

If one scum dies in this game, they lose. Bussing would be pushing for their own loss. So while distancing is a possibility, bussing isn't.

Yes. Yes there is. When somebody calls another player scum, I want hard concrete evidence to prove it. Not process of elimination.

So you want me to lie about reasoning? Until my last post, I had no further reasoning on you.

Yeah, why not? In other games it's fair to suspect more than two players when there is a two player scumteam, why not this one?

I'm not gonna say you and Spy are scum, but so is someone else. That's impossible. If I'm wrong, we'll come to that later. Btw, this could apply to other games too, not just this one. I could reference most of the games I've played, so I'll check what my last one was. Disney mini modded by Llama. Ok, I named 3 scum (assuming 3 on a team) along with another player who was scum if I was wrong. But still, I pushed 3 suspects and just breifly mentioned a 4th as a possibility.

What makes you think my vote was OMGUS?

All I'd really done that was useful up to that point was call you and Spy scum and vote Spy. You said I was tunneling on you and my case on you wasn't strong enough. Your other point is weak as hell (I assumed a QT for scum), so I think you got worried that I suspected you, even when I was voting Spy over you, and you voted me.

I've already given my thoughts on OMGUS votes. They are ridiculous and a waste of a vote. Why would I go against my principals?

Maybe it was unintentional? I don't know.

On another not, I am concerned about camn's slight panicking on page two, to the extent that I had to tell her to chill out. hmm...kmd/camn scumpair?

Heh, I didn't really see any signs of panic.

[Kmd4390]

Btw Haylen, that was Post 64.

[Kmd4390]

To be quite honest I don't think Kmd's evidence to support his reads of Incog/camn/me are convincing, since I definitely have a different read of my own play as compared to my play in True Love. I'm getting the feeling he's using his gut as an excuse not to make real efforts at scumhunting. Not to mention me bein uncomfortable with him going for town reads instead of scum reads--process of elimination is a bad way to hunt when the people you're eliminating from your list of suspects are not confirmed town by any mechanic.

vote: Kmd4390

ALSO CAN YOU PLEASE STOP THE QUOTE WARS. BEFORE IT GETS OUT OF HAND. SUMMARIZE PLEASE. YOU ARE NOT MAKING ANY GRAND ARGUMENT BY QUOTING EVERY SENTENCE SEPERATELY.

I will not read post 63 and 64. Please, each of you, give a summary of the relevant points in each.

The similiarity I saw was the way you kind of jumped on something small to start discussion. You did it in the other game and it looked protown and you did it here, although not really as much. Enough for me to get an early town read and throw out some quick opinions. Look at the reaction I got from Haylen though. Worked nicely IMO.

I keep trying to summarize the points and they just end up being really long summaries. You might as well just go read it and stop being lazy. It's only two posts.

--------------

Incog, I haven't cleared anyone. Just gave my early reads.

------------

Gonna try to do this without quotes to shorten it as much as it's gonna annoy me.

Haylen:
1) I don't see how you could honestly believe that I was trying to say you were town who hadn't seen the scum PM. I was pretty obviously just pointing out that a QT exists based on what is posted.

2)Bussing means you help get your buddy lynched. Distancing means you call your buddy scum, but don't actually try to lynch them.

3) Actually, I think you are scum for the way you reacted to my reads.

4) I think you are scum for that reaction. I have no clue on Spy. Haven't seen enough. Where are you saying I was "casual" about lynching a townie?

5) Nope.

6) You seem to be worried by that way you jump on me over nothing as soon as I vote Spy and call you his buddy.

7) I disagree.

To your point #1 at Incog, where did I say ANYONE

must

be scum?

Your point #3 at Incog makes me want to punch something small and defenseless. "It's not tunneling, it's early tunneling"??? What? But it's not tunneling because I'm trying to convince people I'm right?!? Seriously, what are you ON and why aren't you sharing?

Just because your lynch is probably the easiest to push doesn't mean you have to be town. I'm pushing your lynch because I think you are scum, not because it's easy. While both may be true, I guess it's up for judgement which is the case.

Actually, I don't twist words as scum. Anything I say is a genuine response. The only difference is that as scum, I actually know whether I'm right or wrong.

What do you mean by town doesn't have to convince anyone? I disagree completely. If you can find scum, but can't convince anyone you are right, you aren't a very good player. If you can't catch scum, but you have everyone following you, you still aren't very good. You have to BOTH catch scum and THEN convince everyone you are right. If you can do that, you have mastered playing as town.

----------

Spy, I wasn't calling you scum for that. I was saying that it isn't a reason to clear you. It is completely null.

(How'd I do at not using too many quotes?)

[Kmd4390]

Haylen:

Most of this is "uh-huh, nuh-uh" that isn't getting anywhere. But,

4) Ok. But I don't expect to be right every time I call someone scum.

7) It's not crappy, especially if you are scum.

Also.. why do you think KMD and I are

buddies

LOVERS

?? This interests me HIGHLY.

Oh really. So when HAYLEN says it, it DOES interest you?

-----------

Haylen, didn't I already say I haven't cleared anyone yet? Yes, Camn is my biggest town read, but that could easily change.

[Kmd4390]

I think you missed the joke.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, I'm at L-1 and probably going to be lynched which is fine. I'm calling a Haylen/Korts scum team. Good luck Day 2.

[Kmd4390]

that's your response?

Yeah. Maybe you should hammer before people think you are my scumbuddy.

[Kmd4390]

Incog, Spy looks pretty townie and Korts hasn't added as much to the game as I'd expect. If Haylen is scum though, it doesn't matter who her buddy is. We only need to lynch one.

[Kmd4390]

Korts, yeah, I noticed that about the numbers thing. That's why I'm not doing it anymore.

[Kmd4390]

Yeah, I don't think Spy is scum.

Mediator? Where did I say that?

[Kmd4390]

Oh. My bad.

[Kmd4390]

Oh. I was on the phone and saw Haylen/Spy mentioned and remembered that I'd connected them earlier. Heh.

[Kmd4390]

Because if you're town, you should be scumhunting, and not fishing for support. Which brings me back to my original point.

Or you fish for support once you think you've found scum.

------------

Camn, I think Korts is scum with Haylen. Wanna lynch one of them? I don't care which.

[Kmd4390]

Korts, you always have to pick me as a discussion starter, don't you? XD

Haylen, just because you say you aren't scum doesn't mean we have to believe you. You should have learned that in newbie games. And if you are implying that I am somehow trying to lynch Camn by saying she is likely town, that's kind of funny.

[Kmd4390]

It's funny because it makes no sense.

[Kmd4390]

1.) Camn and I ALWAYS "buddy" during games. Even when we are calling each other scum.
2.) You haven't answered how calling someone town is an attempt to get them lynched.

[Kmd4390]

If buddying was a scumtell, wouldn't it be more likely to get me lynched than Camn? And if you are going to argue that it sets her lynch up tomorrow, I'd have to be town for there to be a tomorrow if I am lynched.

[Kmd4390]

Again, wouldn't it be more likely to get me lynched than to get Camn lynched?

[Kmd4390]

You are trying to say that I am calling Camn town to get her lynched. I am trying to understand why. And don't avoid backing up your statements just because WIFOM is involved.

[Kmd4390]

When has that EVER happened?

[Kmd4390]

Korts, what is your opinion of Haylen? I can't tell from reading you in ISO and using Ctrl+F to search "Haylen".

[Kmd4390]

So you think Haylen is town? Not surprising considering the setup. Who is the scum team then?

[Kmd4390]

V/LA until Sunday. Too busy to sleep, much less play mafia.

[Kmd4390]

You earnt the scumpoint here because since either you, nor Incog told me it wasn't a scumtell in cr3t1n's, but are now. Therefore, you are lying.

a) I was scum in Cr3t1ns.... why would I want to help you?

Wait, so Haylen is using something Camn said before as scum as a reason why Camn's contradicting statement here is a lie? Why is Haylen still alive?

from my point of view we could lynch any of {Korts, camn, and Kmd} Today and if that doesn't win us the game, we could lynch either one of the other two Tomorrow.

I'd be fine with lynching Korts. I wouldn't follow with lynching myself (obviously) or Camn the next day though.

So camn, whatcha think of Kmd's current lurking situation?

You mean my site-wide V/LA from Thursday night to now?

This was my weekend:
Thursday night-worked from around 10PM until 6:40AM on Friday
Friday- worked 9AM to 2:30PM (didn't go home between 6:40 and 9AM because it's a 30 min drive and not worth the gas). Came home to sneak some sleep in. Woke up and left for work around 10PM with no time to eat/shower.
Saturday-Out of work at 6:30. Posted in a few games and left for a concert which I got to work from (didn't go home because I was late) at about 12:30 AM (was scheduled to work at 10PM).
Sunday-Out of work at about 6:30. Came home for real sleep for once. Stayed asleep until 8PM because I was so exausted. Then I had to work 45 minutes away from home at 10PM, so I went there.
Monday-Out of work at 6. Home around 7. Online around 7:30. Still here catching up on games. Plan on sleeping, but have to leave my house in about 7 hours.

^Damn, I was busy.

[Kmd4390]

So I'm assuming it's either me or Camn today? Guess I can vote Camn if needed.

[Kmd4390]

I think the scum can be found in Korts/Camn/Incog in that order. Do you want to lynch Camn? I'll lay my vote if that's what we are doing.

[Kmd4390]

I'm willing to vote Korts too if you'd like. Spy is town because my gut says he is. I'd only vote him if absolutely needed.

You know what? I'm pretty sure it's Camn/Korts. Let's lynch one of them. I don't care which. I'll let Incog and Spy decide.

[Kmd4390]

If it came down to a "we are only lynching Kmd or Spy" situation, yeah, I'd vote Spy. Not without a fighting push on someone else of course, but I would if it came down to it.

But who do you prefer? Camn or Korts?

[Kmd4390]

Kmd, if you think camn and Korts are scum with one another, what do you think their motivation was for having you at L-1 and then moving their votes to a brand new lynching wagon?

Not sure.

Vote Korts

It's the only strong scum read I really have right now.

[Kmd4390]

What are we still waiting for before we lynch?

Unvote

until that is answered.

[Kmd4390]

Why lazy and why specifically lazy scum?

[Kmd4390]

Incog, look through my Day 1 posts again. I brought actual points up against Haylen. I answered "I don't know" because, well, I didn't know. The vote came separately as Korts was my only strong scum read. You say you are also willing to vote Camn, let's do that before the scum quickhammer.

Vote Camn

[Kmd4390]

Korts/Spy. Damn. Good game.

[Kmd4390]

You voted me expecting a quicklynch? V__V

[Kmd4390]

Incog, I wasn't suspicious of you. I was suspicious of Korts.

[Kmd4390]

WTF? When did I ever lose interest?

Incog, gut. I'm a gut player, mostly.

[Kmd4390]

It wasn't apathy. It was confidence in my suspicion on you.

[Kmd4390]

So now that the game is over and I have no reason to lie, do you believe me when I say that what you were doing, waving Tarhalindur's name around, was cold hard Appeal to Authority? You better >:(

I think it was just a case of a newer player hearing something from an experienced player and treating it as truth. Isn't AtA more trying to pass it off as truth rather than actually believing it?

[Kmd4390]

Incog, no problem. Always fun to play a game with you and everyone else here.