Mini 811: Foggy Londontown Mafia - Over!

[dank]

Hello all. I'll try to catch up and post my thoughts later tonight.

[dank]

Some notes:

Neferenom Post 25- Nothing wrong with a 3rd vote here imo, still L-4, but enough votes to see if any scum latch on.

Mokina Post 26/27- Still semi-random. Though I personally dont see the 3rd vote as scummy, i've no issue with Mokina switching.

Far Cry Post 28- Looks a bit iffy to me. Nothing wrong in concept, its just another L-4 vote, but he seems pretty intent on keeping that many votes on username after Mokina unvoted, even as we start to exit RVS with Mokina's question. Reason doesn't make much sense, and did not answer question about Lowell vote.

kikuchiyo Posts 33,34, 38/ Hero Post 35- Like someone else mentioned, looks odd that you're having some irrelevant discussion while the Mokina/Neferenom thing is going on. Almost like you're not paying attention, though I admit its pretty hard to pay attention D1.

qwints Post 37- agreed.

Regarding the Neferenom/Mokina exchange, I think both were trying to test each other, and propelled us through RVS. I don't, however, see anything on either side that's particularly scummy.

Hero764's Post 46- Don't like this post at all.

I'm a little worried that only you and Qwints has really said anything about it though. Hero and Far Cry's comments on it was kind of wasted space and makes them seem a little suspicious. One of those, "hey I'm posting with no real content so I'm not lurking (but not helping either.) At least I know they're reading.

I've just got nothing to add. If you want my opinion on something just ask, of course. Neither of you come out of that looking particularly scummy.

And its only page 2, I hardly think you can accuse anyone of lurking.

Though I agree with neither looking particularly scummy, I don't like the way this is all phrased. "I've got nothing to add" should never be said in any post, nor should "If you want my opinion, just ask". We're scumhunting and trying to figure out who to lynch. You're basically saying that you've got nothing to add, so you'll sit back until someone calls you, which is anti-town. You should be throwing out your opinion as much as you can, and always adding to discussion, this post implies that you want to do neither, which is scummy.

Far Cry Post 52- ..what's the point of unvoting? Are you trying to threaten Lowell? It looks like a quiet backing from the iamausername wagon with a cover of Lowell so no one notices? Yet not actually voting him? Odd.

kikuchiyo Post 60- fair point.

Far Cry Post 61- Yeck. Overdefensive. Distancing from Mokina (kik isn't making you seem like Mafia partners, you are). More overdefensive about votes on him. Points for mentioning hero.


-----

So, not much content to analyze yet. Things I gained from this:

Far_Cry- Suspicious play, but moreso nooby play. It is his first game I believe, and overdefensiveness/other odd things he's done are to be expected. Not all that suspicious of him.

kikuchiyo- I like the questioning/seeking answers on page 3.

Mokina- bit overdefensive of FC, though i'm not too bothered by it. Not really bothered by her questioning Neferenom.

Neferenom- Also not really bothered by questioning Mokina.

Hero764- "I've just got nothing to add" + "If you want my opinion on something just ask" + lurking =

vote: Hero764

Those I didn't mention I don't particularly remember reading, meaning they haven't contributed much content yet.

[dank]

kiku votes lowell
someone else unvotes lowell
kiku says "why is lowell suspicious???"
kiku gets angry when someone else explains

people I don't understand: kiku.

FC didn't unvote Lowell, he unvoted someone else and threatened to vote Lowell.

[dank]

Why are you defending him again? He's at L-4, and this isn't something that will likely get more votes than it already has.

[dank]

Uhm no, not perfectly clear. I've got quite a few more posts in the thread than Lowell had, there's no clear cut reason for my suspicion, because I haven't only done one thing in this thread. See the difference?

More posts, yes, though they consist of either irrelevant talk of past games, you insisting you don't have anything to add, or defending either yourself or FC. You're right, you've done several different things in this game, but none of them have been of much help to the town. See the difference?

Have you even called anyone out on suspicion yet, or actually tried to scumhunt?

[dank]

Because many of the others just havent posted much. You've made as many posts as anyone in the first few pages, yet none of them really have any scumhunting content. Its like you're posting just to keep up appearances/defend yourself and FC, instead of helping town.

[dank]

vote Lowell

for picking on a first time player on this site.[/b]

Why say that? I can understand pointing out its your first game when you're new and want to be given some slack, since you're not too sure what's expected yet. But now, since your bragging that you've had 10 complete games, why were you trying to pull the noob card?

Also, if you are indeed an experienced player as you say, then perhaps I shouldn't discount your behavior as "nooby". As i've said in my earlier post, your behavior has been suspicious.

[dank]

I have too many posts so I'm scum? And why the hell shouldn't I defend myself? I was only defending FC in the sense that I thought kiku's case was pretty stupid.

Your strawman does not impress me.

And I probably shouldn't say this or I might be 'defending' FC, but he never lied about his experience. He said he was a first time player on this site, not forever.

When someone says "lay off, i'm new to the site", its implied that they are new to the game and looking for some slack, not that they're an experienced player.

Explain how not having an opinion is scummy =/. Looks like you're just attacking the easiest target tbh.

You must always suspect someone, or at least try to scumhunt to look for suspicious behaviors. By neither finding anyone suspicious, nor showing any sort of inititiave to scum hunt, it looks very suspicious. Keep in mind, scum know everyone is innocent, so they may have a harder time trying to find reasons to be suspicious of others, or even start cases themselves. Thats where it could be scummy.

kiku: Making up a case is scummy. He never lied about his experience.

Again uncalled for defense. I refuse to believe that you can't understand how his statement could easily be interpreted as no experience playing mafia (i'm sure thats what the majority of players here thought).

So now we have dank, kiku, and Lowell all 'bandwagoning'(I know that isn't what it is, just can't think of a better word) on this false case. I bet you money one of them is scum.

Because we're voting for you, we must be scum? Though Lowell hasn't provided much at all, how exactly are kiku and I bandwagoning when we're providing original reasoning for our votes?

[dank]

It wasn't strawman. Others haven't had 'scumhunting' content either. The only difference between me and them is my posts, as you said. Is there some hidden reason I missed in your post? Your neglectance of my second question is noted.

I've laid out my reasons for finding you suspicious over several posts, including 1. your ugly post showing no initiative to scum hunt, 2. your overdefensiveness, which should not be there this early in the game unless you've got something to hide, 3. your insistant defense of FC, which also doesn't have much of a reason, 4. your lack of any content until lately 5. your large number of posts without any content (keep up appearances). There may be more i'm not remembering.

Your version of my reasons: "I post too much".

See the strawman yet?

Except it was the RVS, and people use BS reasons all the time.

Its the random voting stage, not the lying voting stage. You're not expected to lie and make stuff up in RVS that will have an effect on how people will view you for the rest of the game. Thats what he did.

I don't see how that matters. Scum can find reasons in posts just as well as anyone else. And I think it would usually benefit scum to throw suspicion onto someone. About as much as it benefits town.

Scum don't want to get tangled up in cases of people they know are innocent, because it may draw suspicion later. Scum want to coast through the game quietly, jump on some bandwagons, go along with town's wishes, not do any major scumhunting themselves, because guess what, they don't have to. The town will usually do it for them. they basically try to go unnoticed, and guess what buddy, that's what you did for much of this game.

Doesn't matter what you interpret it is, based on his "10 games" post we know he couldn't have been playing the newbie card, and the two posts certainly don't contradict eachother like kiku seems to think here.

i'm not going to repeat the same line I've used about 4 times to reply to this, go read my last post.

Your strawman does not impress me. Reread my post dawg.

Your entire post says the case on FC is not true (I like how you're still arguing to disprove a case that's got nothing to do with you).

Now, I admit, I had made a mistake here. I assumed, since you spent such a long post defending something, that this bandwagon thing was about votes on you. But not, it appears they're about your good ol' buddy FC.

That said, kik put a vote on him for a good reason. Lowell, indeed didn't provide much, and it would be nice to hear more from him. My vote wasn't even on him, it's been on you ever since I replaced into this game.

Yet somehow, you've got a concise list of 3 people where one of us is scum.

Excellent scumhunting, my friend. It seems you've turned the corner.

[dank]

My god you're thick.

1. I already responded to that and you said nothing about it. So I assumed you had let it go.
2. Making shit up about your own posts certainly isn't making you look better. Please quote where you said this, because I can't seem to find it. And how have I been "overdefensive" compared to just regular defensive?
3. Yeah, except I wasn't defending FC. If I was so focused on defending then why have I attacked him twice now?
4. Which applies to others.
5. "You have too many posts".

1. This has been discussed by me and others in multiple posts, and your responses have been pretty unimpressive. You haven't convinced anyone and the suspicion remains on you. Trust me, nothing's been let go.

2. I'm not going to help your lack of attention at what I post by pointing out specifically where I said what. I pointed your you being oddly defensive of both of yourself and FC several times, as have others. (Hint: Posts 78, 88, 90, 103. I bring up the word "defensive" in those posts for a reason.

3. You've been defending him like crazy.

4. Yes

5. Yes.

When you add 4 + 5 however you get suspicious. If you also throw in 1, 2 and 3, you get scummy.

[quote="Hero764"Its the random voting stage, not the lying voting stage. You're not expected to lie and make stuff up in RVS that will have an effect on how people will view you for the rest of the game. Thats what he did.[/quote] You certainly haven't been defending FC.

You assume all scum must act the same.

Not at all. It's just a common behavior.

I'm not sure which part of your last post you're referring to?

Not sure what the issue about FC is?

Could it be

When someone says "lay off, i'm new to the site", its implied that they are new to the game and looking for some slack, not that they're an experienced player.

or

[quote="dank"I refuse to believe that you can't understand how his statement could easily be interpreted as no experience playing mafia (i'm sure thats what the majority of players here thought). [/quote]

or

vote Lowell

for picking on a first time player on this site.[/b]

Why say that? I can understand pointing out its your first game when you're new and want to be given some slack, since you're not too sure what's expected yet. But now, since your bragging that you've had 10 complete games, why were you trying to pull the noob card?

or even his reply:

I wasn't rly trying to pull out the noob card. I'm jus playin my game.

right.

It isn't true, because he didn't lie like you guys keep saying. (I like how you are still arguing for a case that is based on an obviously false pretense). He said it was the first game on this site. Where is the lie in that? Oh tell me please all knowing dank.

You

certainly

haven't been defending FC.

Kik's reason was a complete lie, how can that possibly be considered a good reason? What's with the unnecessary defense dank? And I know your votes been on me, did I ever say anything to the contrary?

You said "So now we have dank, kiku, and Lowell all 'bandwagoning'(I know that isn't what it is, just can't think of a better word) on this false case. I bet you money one of them is scum."

I'm bandwagoning on a "false" case, even though i'm not even voting for FC.

I see.

[dank]

meh, i'm done arguing in circles with you Hero. I think we got all we're going to get out of that little exchange.

As far as defending kik, i'm defending the point I originally made about FC. kik happens to agree with it.

You, however, are defending something another player said. See the difference?

[dank]

...I'm not repeating myself again. The arguments against post 66 have been beaten to death.

There's nothing wrong with defending yourself. Doing it as much as you have on the first few pages looks a bit odd, as if you've got something to hide.

[dank]

Post 66 contains the same stupid arguments we just spent a page arguing about. Do you really think they haven't been discussed?

Your defensiveness has been you trying, thickheadedly, to defend your slipup in post 46. Everything you've posted has been defending either you or FC, if you havent noticed. 95% defense, 5% scumhunting. That's whats wrong with it.


Anyway, i'm done arguing with you. Like I said, being as stubborn as you are, I don't think this argument will move anymore than it already has.

[dank]

First of all, my reasons for voting hero were stated before page 5, and nothing on page 5 really changes anything. I'm not putting him into a trap, I already stated my case and voted a long time ago. He's trying to argue his way out of it, and refusing to listen to another opinion that people might share that isn't his own. That's what has him in the infinite feedback loop.

Second, why does he have to defend himself? He's nowhere near being lynched. The town hasn't turned against him. I merely presented my argument. There's no logical need to get this riled up over an accusation on page 5. His posts have all been defense as if he's about to be lynched, instead of pursuing those he sees suspicious. He hasn't scumhunted, he's only defended. Thats the issue.

[dank]

I don't care

about his first statement, and

it means jack shit what you interpret it as

.

If that's so, why have you spent the last two pages arguing about its interpretation?

[dank]

Alright, I brought up my interpretation of it.

If you don't care, and "it means jack shit what you interpret it as", why have you argued in every post that i'm wrong?

[dank]

V/LA till monday. Possibly a post over the weekend, but I should be caught up by mon.

[dank]

Post 52:

unvote

Lowell is

lurking and is suspicious

, but I'll hold back on my vote for now.

Vote:Lowell

for active l

urking and suspicious

posts.

Um, Wiirdo, I'm not sure if this is ur 1st game, but this sounds strange. U urself hav been lurking (a little), and then go and vote for someone else doing the same.

Kinda sounds mafiaish.

Meanwhile,

unvote

Obviously Tenchi will be gone (I mean, is gone). No point trying to get something out of him/her.

iamausername, why do u keep goin on about my earlier statement about my experience in mafia? In jus about every post u hav to somehow attack me.

Oh and Lowell, shut up. If u dont hav anything reasonable to say, don't say it. U make urself look rly retarded.

And kiku, u ALWAYS hav the longest posts. u hav to say something for just about everything, huh?

My biggest suspicions: Lowell and Wiirdo

Its suspicious when someone other than you says "lurking and suspicious"?

Anyway, just reread most of the stuff I missed. The Hero thing has beaten to death, so I'm not going to argue more of it. I think Hero is being pretty thickheaded, because whether he admits it or not, he is defending FC by giving him the benefit of the doubt. If you can't understand how that's being done at this point, I dont know what else can be said. Its a simple concept, its been blown up like crazy.

As far as mason claims, I can see it being a good thing. Say we have two confirmed masons. Two things can happen:

1. Mafia nightkills the confirmed town masons, which are not PR, so the PR possibly get more time. +

2. Mafia takes note of the masons, but nightkills others that could have PRs. They may hit or miss as usual, but through it all, we have two confirmed townies very early on, and have a lesser chance of a mislynch. +

Seems a win win situation in theory, though of course mafia could take advantage and fakeclaim, and other sort of complications could arise. I'm relatively new, so I could be wrong (do let me know if I am).

Anyway, kik's rush to lynch/claim out of hero seems a bit, well, rushed? We've got plenty of time, and we did get alot of information thus far, but there's no reason to end the day this early. We should fit as much discussion in as possible until we absolutely have to lynch someone, where its blatantly obvious. I don't think we're at that point with hero yet, so I don't think there's any reason to rush for a lynch this early.

Anyway, some questions:

kik, why did you want to lynch/claim so soon, when we still have so much time left?

FC: You're suspicious of Lowell for lurking, yet aren't you lurking just as much?

Lowell: You're looking pretty scummy thus far, but you're playing exactly to your meta (which is pretty good strategy here, actually). Post more. Who do you suspect?

naj- please never make posts like "that's a very good point" again. thanks.

[dank]

The only reason you backed down was because people didn't buy it.

Did you not do the very same thing?

[dank]

ick, nevermind. Confused you with someone else.

I'll make another reread when i'm more conscious.

[dank]

I just don't like it when people make posts with no content other than "i agree", because they allow you to just throw your vote on without showing that you're thinking. I'm sure you could at least elaborate more/add something. That's all.

Anyway, I will reread the Mokina thing and post my thoughts on it tomorrow. I am burnt out right now, I spent 6 nonstop hours driving today.

[dank]

I don't want to get accused of giving Mokina the benefit of the doubt,

but you have to think of other ways to interpret Mokina's statement

. She could've meant, for instance, that while kiku's initial accusation could've been townish, the fact that she kept pushing after being shown she was wrong was scummy. Scum can find cases against people too and base them on something worthwhile. Townies can make themselves look scummy when they aren't.

Are Mokina's actions questionable? Yes, very. But I find kiku's continuous scumminess much more of a grounds for a lynch than this.

Hero, are you

seriously

arguing that there is more than one way to interpret something?

really

?

[dank]

(Analysis post coming later tonight)

[dank]

First a few notes:

kik, why did you want to lynch/claim so soon, when we still have so much time left?

At the time I asked I was feeling confident that Hero was scum. I can't lynch someone on my own, that takes votes, and bandwagon analysis can be a large part of this game. I got to a point in my argument with Hero where I thought he was simply avoiding the issue. I never overstated my case on Hero. It was built on two separate incidents where he "charitably" interpreted the ambiguous statements of another player. In fact, both incidents occurred with the same player, so I don't see how my call for lynch or claim was "rushed". Further, this line of questioning ignores the fact that I did in fact unvote, and promote discussion of other players actions. i.e I could have kept pushing, I believe Hero was at L-1 or L-2 at some point.

Alright, so you were feeling confident that Hero was scum, based on two incidents (that I agree with you were not pro-town). You later unvoted to promote more discussion (also agreed was the right move) and later placed your vote on someone you thought was more scummy.

My issue is that even though you later changed your mind, you were pushing for a lynch very early, one that you are not pushing for now. It makes no sense to push for a lynch at first, and then unvote for more discussion, like you say you did. It's backtracking in a way. It almost seems like there was an opportune chance for a quick lynch early in the day, and you wanted to quickly take it, but when it didn't work, you backtracked away from lynching him. That is looking pretty suspicious.

Next, regarding Hero's "you have to think of other ways to interpret Mokina's statement", he explained why he did that with the roleclaim, so that's understandable. However, by saying that, he awknowledges that he DOES understand the concept he spent pages and pages ignoring, he just for some reason thinks it doesnt apply at all to FC. In a way, this makes his defense of FC even stranger.

Hero, why were you unwilling to interpret FC's statement differently when you're admitting that a statement can be interpreted differently?

I will

unvote

for now, however I am not fully sold on the mason claim. If scum, Hero's been hearing "claim mason!" for many many pages, and it wouldn't even be that bold of a scum move, just a very smart one. He perhaps decides to do that, and if Mokina is scum partners with him, she just follows when he said "Mokina will confirm". We can't just assume he's being 100% accurate and ignore his previous play which has been scummy, it could be a very opportunistic fakeclaim is all.

That said, for now I believe him enough to not push a lynch in his direction, but I will pay attention to him/Mokina on the reread to see if it all adds up.

Post coming soon.

[dank]

Uh uh, its an interpretation that I, kik, and probably a few others have explained to you. ONCE again:

1st statement can either mean: Hey, this is my first game on this site, but I've played elsewhere.

OR

Hey, this is my first game on this site, i'm new to mafia.

If you believe the first INTERPRETATION, then yes, they don't contradict each other. If you believe the second INTERPRETATION, then they do.

You were unwilling to consider the second INTERPRETATION that others explained they had thought he meant.

Don't argue this further, if you disagree, just say you disagree. I don't want another argument blowing up over it. This is my opinion, you have yours.

But I really don't like that you seem to consider alternate interpretations for only select posts.

[dank]

"I think the reason you went about your argument the way you did is that you honestly believe your accusation was based on something worthwhile." completely goes against the argument Mokina had been making.

Here, i'll fix it for you:

I don't want to get accused of giving Mokina the benefit of the doubt, but you have to think of other ways to interpret Mokina's statement. She could've meant, for instance, that while kiku's initial accusation could've been townish,

the fact that she kept pushing after being shown she was wrong was scummy. Scum can find cases against people too and base them on something worthwhile. Townies can make themselves look scummy when they aren't.

Are Mokina's actions questionable? Yes, very. But I find kiku's continuous scumminess much more of a grounds for a lynch than this.

Why are you tacking extra stuff onto her initial statement?

[dank]

Just because you were saving her doesnt mean you didn't

add things that she did not flat out say

. Though it may be bullshit, it is something that you added that COULD be interpreted from what she did say.

[dank]

Does that mean i'm right? No rebuttal?

My point is that you ignored an interpretation of FC's statement. Your defense of this was that there was nothing to interpret, and refused to acknowledge those that were interpreting his statement differently. You basically refused to understand the concept of interpreting a post that could be vague.

By posting an interpretation of another possible vague post by Mokina, and flat out saying that posts can be interpreted differently, even if it was in defense of a Mason, the argument that you don't understand the concept that we were trying to explain to you is null. It becomes apparent that you simply ignored the arguments about interpreting FC's statement differently; you understood them fully (since you did the exact same thing we did with Mokina's post). Whether it was bullshit defense or not, you proved that your defense of your argument against kik's or my interpretation of FC's post ("I dont understand how you can interpret it!") no longer stands. Which means, your defense of FC makes absolutely no logical sense, and is far more suspicious than originally thought. You knowingly played stupid to defend him, when you understood exactly what we were trying to say.

That's my point.

[dank]

If FC had not posted his second statement then his first one would very fucking well be up for interpretation.

So now you're saying his first statement was ambiguous and up for interpretation? You never said anything to the contrary?

Here, I'll fix it for you:

1st statement can either mean: Hey, this is my first game on this site,

but I've played elsewhere.

OR

Hey, this is my first game on this site,

i'm new to mafia.

Why are you tacking extra stuff onto his initial statement? That's why you think he contradicted himself, because you apparently have a problem with reading stuff as they are. His first post, taken for what it really means DOES NOT contradict his second, no matter which way you look at it.

What was that, then?

Those are the two interpretations of the post you now admit can be interpreted. BEFORE his second post (you do admit it was up for interpretation prior to it), I, along with some others, interpreted it as he was new to mafia. I even cut him slack in finding him suspicious for his actions, since I thought he was simply new to the game.

Then, he makes his second post. Those who sided with the interpretation that he was simply new to the site got a confirmation. Those who sided with the other interpretation got confused.

Here's the deal. Believe it or not, people aren't always fully outright in this game (shock!). FC was not outright with his first ambiguous post, and led players like me to discount some of his actions as simply nooby. That may have been the goal or was an innocent mistake, i'm not too worried about it. You, however, are trying to convince me that FC was being honest from the start. Your whole argument of not understanding interpretations is now void with your post about Mokina, and you now indeed admit the post was up for interpretation.

So, why did it take you 10 pages to admit that? Why did you spend 10 pages playing dumb to defend FC?

[dank]

Because Hero's defense of FC now becomes even more uncalled for. He is backpedaling with every post, first showing us that he does understand how posts can be interpreted differently, to now even saying that the first post was "fucking well up for interpretation".

Look, just because he claims Mason doesn't prove his innocence for the duration of this game. He could be a Mason, he could be a traitor Mason scum, we could not even have any masons in this game. There all sorts of possibilites, and while he certainly is not up for a lynch at this point, and I am not pushing one, I am not discounting the suspicious things he has done, and I don't think anyone should either. With his last few posts, the FC defense (and his defense of it) looks really really odd.

[dank]

Yes, but it took Hero until page 11 to admit that. Up to now, his arguments have been that the first post was never up for interpretation, and there was no way to interpret it other than what is written, or just blatant ignorance of the whole idea of interpreting posts.

He went out of his way to defend FC. He didn't do so logically, like you have done. He just said that our interpretations were a flat out lie, and that there was never any interpretation of anything. With his own interpretation of Mokina's possible ambiguous post AND the latest admittance that it actually was at one point up for interpretation, things look ery odd. That's what i'm getting at, if that makes sense.

[dank]

Don't play the guilt card.

As said before, mason claims are usually good for town. They either give us confirmed townies to narrow down chances for a miskill, or save possible power roles some nights by having scum kill off masons first, who have no night actions. The claim is good for the town and good for your win condition, so why are you crying about it?

[dank]

Backed into a corner?

You were at L-3 and Hero had 1 vote on him when you guys claimed. If you didn't want to claim, there was no pressing need to do it. If you guys played a bad day 1 and had to roleclaim because of it, that's on you, not the town, since you were not even in a lynch situation.

[dank]

Agreed that FC rode the defense for a while. In post 61, he accuses kiku of trying to exploit him/mokina and set up some scenario where they look like mafia partners, thus defending her defense of him. Post 96 has him reverse that and accuse Mokina/Hero of uncalled for defense. It seems like he rode it for a while, and then, after it had done its course on the ambiguous statement about Lowell, he criticized it.

Regarding being defended, a town player would know he has nothing to hide, so he probably would not be as worried about getting attacked. Thus, he could possibly call out those defending him if it looked suspicious, because again, the town player knows he's town. Scum however, know their guilt. And an accusation of them is much more scary than of a town player. They will probably take as much defense as they reasonably can, because they do have something to hide. Its a much more dire situation.

Was the way he treated the defense scummy? Maybe, maybe not. His play overall, however, has been.

I had been typing up a long post of comments on all of FC's posts from the start, but I lost power and thus lost that post. I really don't feel like starting over, because there's been painfully little content from FC.

He's thrown out one liners. He's called people suspicious and not backed it up with anything except maybe one of those one liners. He just hasn't been scum hunting. His most in depth post was a rundown of every player in the game, where mostly everyone was "neutral", and those suspicious had practically nothing behind their accusations. He's posted a great deal more than some of the lurkers we have here, but I invite all of you to go back and look at the content of his posts. It is dreadful, which is hard to believe for someone who's played 10 full games. I don't know his meta, but if he is that experienced, it seems he's afraid to actually go out and scum hunt? Or maybe this is how he plays, I don't really know.

He's contributed practically nothing to this game. That's what I got from the reread. There are plenty of other players who I haven't looked at who contribute just as little or less, so I will reserve my vote until I check them out. However, the fact that he is posting yet contributing nothing is more suspicious than hardly posting at all (same point for nadroj, but he is one of those I will check out later) For now,

FoS: Far_Cry

.

[dank]

@hero:

Nadroj and Wiirdo are my biggest suspicions, with Lowell, kiku, and dank not all too far behind.

Obviously, all five cant be mafia, but, at this point, its hard to pick out which of those 5 are. Or maybe I'm wrong, and somebody else is mafia, but I'm pretty sure of my decisions.

Yuck, this is ridiculous. You've posted hardly anything worthwhile all game, then you get the chance to answer an easy question of who you find scummy. You say:

I find 5 people suspicious. I will give no reason why. All 5 can't be mafia, and I can't decide which are scum. Or maybe i'm wrong.

Excellent scumhunting.

unvote, vote: Far_Cry

[dank]

Ok, this is even more ridiculous:

That's a very good point.

Unvote, Vote: Mokina

]That post IS crazy scummy.

Vote: Lowell

Yup, you're pretty sure of your decisions . . . wait, what decisions?

Way to non-post.

Vote: FarCry

unvote, Vote: nadroj15]

I'd highly suggest you make a long and detailed post on who you find suspicious and why, and perhaps attempt to go after/make a case of those people. You've been active lurking, you've now made 3 pitiful bandwagon votes without any sort of backup other than "what he said". You look very very scummy right now.

[dank]

Dank - Has been actively scumhunting all game. I do not find him suspicious at all right now.

FarCry - Scummy as heck. I know I'm going to get called out for bandwagoning on this (as I already have), but he hasn't contributed much, and has an extrememly scummy reaction when accused.

Hero764 - Was very scummy earlier in the game, but claimed masons with Mokina. His scummy behavior still is valid, but our efforts are better spent on other places than a mason claim.

iamausername - Has been contributing, but I can't shake a gut feeling. I don't know why I have it, and I would certainly never lynch based on a gut feeling, but that little voice in the back of my head makes me suspect her. Of course, my gut isn't very reliable.

kikuchiyo - I really don't like how she throws her vote around. It bothers me that she kept waffling with her vote. Like I've said before, you can have your mind changed, but you do need to have a backbone in this game. This isn't a big enough thing to vote her for, and FC is far more suspicious than her, but I would like to watch her closely in upcoming days.

Lowell - Why were you posting in other games but not this one? What reason would you have to avoid one game but not another?

Mokina - Claims mason with Hero. The slip was extremely suspicious, but I don't think a mason claim should be the focal point of our scumhunting this early in the game.

nadroj15 - This guy is scummy as heck. I mean seriously, three bandwagon posts?

I realize that I look bad right now. For two of the votes, I voted asomeone who was suspicious as pointed out by someone else. Quick question: If the evidence that another player brings up against someone is convincing, why should it be suspicious to vote them? I realize that I had nothing to add on to the case, but everything that I would have said had already been said by others. The Lowell vote was partly a vote, partly an activity prod. I suspected that he was active lurking, so I put my vote on him to see if he would say anything.

Neferenom - Where'd you go? From what I've seen so far, I don't suspect you that much . . . but then again, we haven't seen all that much from you at all. Please return to the game.

qwints - Post more.

Tenchi - Welcome back to the game! I haven't seen anything scummy from you yet, but get posting more so that we have more posts to judge you by.

Wiirdo - Post more. Nuff said. You haven't given us anything to believe you are scum . . . but you haven't given us anything to believe you are town, either.

I didn't ask you for a scumlist of the whole town, I asked for who you thought was suspicious and to make a case for once. All you did there was say X is suspicious because he's scummy. Are you going to actually scumhunt in this game?

To answer your question, scum usually don't want to build cases and actively scumhunt, because they know the ones they're going after are innocent. Thus, when they flip town, the ones making the case/the cases themselves will be reviewed. By voting, not adding anything, and saying that everything you wanted to be was already said (how convenient!), you add no reasoning to put yourself at risk, yet get town closer to lynch. Its scummy as hell.

I'm sort of between nad and FC right now. Even though nad explained himself (hehe, nad), that doesnt change the fact that his play has been very scummy all day. FC, I don't know. I somewhat agree with Lowell on his assesment, yet we can't just give him a free pass for scummy behavior because of it. I'm torn between whether I want to lynch him or not.

I'd like to take a closer look at everyone else of course including the lurkers (sigh). But right now, i'm between nad and FC, leaning towards nad.

[dank]

Ok, this is even more ridiculous:

That's a very good point.

Unvote, Vote: Mokina

]That post IS crazy scummy.

Vote: Lowell

Yup, you're pretty sure of your decisions . . . wait, what decisions?

Way to non-post.

Vote: FarCry

unvote, Vote: nadroj15]

I'd highly suggest you make a long and detailed post on who you find suspicious and why, and perhaps attempt to go after/make a case of those people. You've been active lurking, you've now made 3 pitiful bandwagon votes without any sort of backup other than "what he said". You look very very scummy right now.

Doing that 3 times in a game while active lurking is kind of ridiculous to me. His reply to this post was:

Dank - Has been actively scumhunting all game. I do not find him suspicious at all right now.

FarCry - Scummy as heck. I know I'm going to get called out for bandwagoning on this (as I already have), but he hasn't contributed much, and has an extrememly scummy reaction when accused.

Hero764 - Was very scummy earlier in the game, but claimed masons with Mokina. His scummy behavior still is valid, but our efforts are better spent on other places than a mason claim.

iamausername - Has been contributing, but I can't shake a gut feeling. I don't know why I have it, and I would certainly never lynch based on a gut feeling, but that little voice in the back of my head makes me suspect her. Of course, my gut isn't very reliable.

kikuchiyo - I really don't like how she throws her vote around. It bothers me that she kept waffling with her vote. Like I've said before, you can have your mind changed, but you do need to have a backbone in this game. This isn't a big enough thing to vote her for, and FC is far more suspicious than her, but I would like to watch her closely in upcoming days.

Lowell - Why were you posting in other games but not this one? What reason would you have to avoid one game but not another?

Mokina - Claims mason with Hero. The slip was extremely suspicious, but I don't think a mason claim should be the focal point of our scumhunting this early in the game.

nadroj15 - This guy is scummy as heck. I mean seriously, three bandwagon posts?

I realize that I look bad right now. For two of the votes, I voted asomeone who was suspicious as pointed out by someone else. Quick question: If the evidence that another player brings up against someone is convincing, why should it be suspicious to vote them? I realize that I had nothing to add on to the case, but everything that I would have said had already been said by others. The Lowell vote was partly a vote, partly an activity prod. I suspected that he was active lurking, so I put my vote on him to see if he would say anything.

Neferenom - Where'd you go? From what I've seen so far, I don't suspect you that much . . . but then again, we haven't seen all that much from you at all. Please return to the game.

qwints - Post more.

Tenchi - Welcome back to the game! I haven't seen anything scummy from you yet, but get posting more so that we have more posts to judge you by.

Wiirdo - Post more. Nuff said. You haven't given us anything to believe you are scum . . . but you haven't given us anything to believe you are town, either.

Which basically says "X is suspicious because he is scummy" in multiple cases. Not a good post at all.

[dank]

Deadline's on the way, and it's looking like it's going to be between Far_Cry and nadroj. Given that choice, I'll be voting nadroj for sure. FC just comes off as a bit clueless to me, whereas nadroj's repeated sheeping is actually somewhat scummy.

Is there someone else you feel has been even scummier?

[dank]

Is there more to your case than not mentioning your defense of hero and forgetting he's voting for FC? Those points really aren't that much compared to the cases built against FC and nad. If you could explain it more, I think we'd be willing to listen.

[dank]

Good post, SC. I agree that we should not blindly accept the mason claim, as there's still alot that happened before the claim that should not be ignored. For the D1 lynch of course, we will assume they are.

As far as that goes, I completely understand the case against FC, but i'm having trouble shifting my vote to him. I'm in another game with him, and i've read some others he's in, and in each game, he's the same distracting noob, he just doesn't think he is. I don't know if he's trying to be a moron, or if he's 12 or 13, but this is how he plays in every game. Its distracting, and extremely anti-town, but it doesnt absolutely mean he's scum in every game.

That said, he is a very easy person to wagon. I certainly expect at least one of the scum to try to push for an FC lynch D1 (if he flips town), because he is such an amazingly easy target. Anyway, despite my uncertainties, his play is flat out anti-town and distracting, and is not at all helping us, so there really is no reason to keep him alive. If he's town, there will probably be some helpful analysis day 2 on his wagon to see if scum may have taken advantage, and if he's scum, it gives us alot of people to look at.

unvote, vote: Far_Cry

[dank]

Why the switch of vote? You think a policy lynch is better than lynching someone who is scummy?

I have always been between FC and nad, and i've stated my reasoning for picking between them a few times.

Honestly, they're both just as scummy. The thing with FC is this is how he plays, and how he will play for the rest of the game. If he is scum, always playing scummy in every game is an excellent strategy, because people will be wary of voting him, like myself and others have been. If he's town, he will only be a major distraction, and will probably help us very little. I had been preferring a nad lynch, but I think FC could help us even more, even if he turns out to flip town, for the reasons i stated in my last post.

[dank]

If we lynch FC, who has been scummy all day (although being scummy is apparently his meta):

A- He flips scum. Yay. Lots of leads.

B- He flips town.
1. His play was flat out antitown and not helping us anyway, it was only a huge distraction.
2. We can more or less confirm the masons.
3. Bandwagon analysis- FC was the easiest target in the game, it wouldn't be surprising at all if at least one of the scum jumped on at some point.

I voted nad instead of FC because FC's meta was holding me back, kind of like hero's reasoning lately has been (he's like this in every game). When you think about it more, like others have said, not only can we gain the most from his lynch, but we can also remove an anti-town player who frankly doesnt help us. Think about it, if we excuse FC's scummy play now, will we excuse it for the rest of the game? Just because he has a horrible gameplay doesn't mean we let him slide through if he's acting scummy. The meta reasoning for his lynch was keeping me more towards nad, but with more thought, I think its more of a reason to lynch him than not.

Not that nad isn't suspicious. I think they're about even, but the reasons above pushes FC over nad for me. Hence the change.

L-1 now. FC, claim.

[dank]

Thats why i'm asking you to roleclaim right now.

[dank]

fair enough.

unvote

[dank]

^^Agreed. Doc is such a ridiculously common role that I can't see scum trying to fake claim it when they're backed into a corner. Even if they do, chances are there's a counter.

[dank]

qwints- why do you think its BS?

[dank]

^^Agreed. Doc is such a ridiculously common role that I can't see scum trying to fake claim it when they're backed into a corner. Even if they do, chances are there's a counter.

You've never seen someone fake-claim doc? I've seen it at least twice.

On the counter issue: the real doc (if there is one) should not counter-claim. FC (assuming he's scum) is trying to trade his life for the docs. Don't let him. The doc should only counter the day before lylo.

You don't think a doc for 1/3 (i'd guess 3 scum in this game) of the scum team is a good tradeoff? Without a real doc claiming, I can't see any reason to lynch FC today, so we'd essentially be letting scum roam free, where we could lynch him now.

As far as not claiming till later, if there's a D1 doc claim by scum, and the real doctor claims a few days later... who will town most likely believe? The real doctor will certainly get lynched, it just wouldn't make sense to lynch FC then.

I dont' understand your reasoning; it seems fairly anti-town.

[dank]

You don't think a doc for 1/3 (i'd guess 3 scum in this game) of the scum team is a good tradeoff? Without a real doc claiming, I can't see any reason to lynch FC today, so we'd essentially be letting scum roam free, where we could lynch him now.

Weird assumption here, considering that you are simultaneously denying that the claim was scummy. I don't like the way this is worded at all, the "letting scum roam free" while opposing his lynch. Could some others reread this post and tell me if I'm overly worried?

I don't quite get what you're saying here. Where was I denying that the claim was scummy/admitting it was town? I don't even get what that has to do with anything. I was saying that if there's a counterclaim and it catches us scum on D1, I think we should go through with it, instead of letting that caught scum that could be lynched D1 continue to roam free, with the assumption that he's the real doc when we can prove he isn't. Like letting an easy lynch get away in favor of a tougher lynch later on, where the counterclaim could not be as easily believed.

Maybe rephrase what you didn't like about my post? I don't really see what you mean.

That's why we lynch FC today. No dithering, no counterclaims.

Vote: Far Cry

I'm not afraid to do it. I'm a mason, bitches.

..so you're against having the doc come out and counterclaim to give us caught scum, in favor of lynching what could easily be our real doctor?

FoS: Mokina

Do explain why you want to lynch our assumed doc, after arguing that a doc should not counterclaim at the risk of being killed. Also, do tell why you want to lynch FC before any counterclaims, or lack thereof perhaps. This vote seems to have very scummy intentions.

(i'm fine with a nad lynch, but I want to bring this to town's attention first)

[dank]

In my experience, doctors

don't

claim. Doctors keep their heads down, even to the end. What do we stand to gain by letting him live tonight? If he's simply a doctor who doesn't know how the role is played, he'll either get NK'd or they'll leave him alive, knowing that we will do their job for them tomorrow. I ask then, what do we stand to gain by not cardflipping him as soon as we can?

He's either scum influencing the town or he's a doctor, and right now if he's a doc he's useless. I'm not surprised at the jumping-off of the wagon ... nobody wants to be associated with a possible doc lynch, regardless of alignment. But the reasons for his scumminess have not changed - he's just made a clever claim and wants to see how long it will hold.

erm, what of the chance that FC is our doctor, and is smart enough to open a pm to the mod and type a couple letters that happen to match the name of someone in this game, and happens to save someone from a NK? 0% right?

[dank]

No, you're pushing for an FC lynch and not once accepting the chance that maybe, oh maybe, he's the real doctor. I think that's much scummier than anything i've been doing.

[dank]

Please don't use math when you have no clue what the hell you're talking about.

[dank]

Meh, I still feel very badly about lynching a claimed doc, especially since we all seem to be against counterclaims, if there is one.

[dank]

I do not like dank's recent postings.

iso post 34 votes FC
iso post 35 votes nadroj
iso post 40 votes FC
iso post 44 unvotes
iso post 48 FoS's Mokina

Talk about going with the flow . It's really easy to throw your vote on the lurkers that other people are pointing out as scummy and attacking someone who is prepared to lynch the claimed doc.

FoS dank.

erm, what?

post 34- I log on to see FC's newest post and vote him. Am I not allowed to vote someone who made an ugly post if someone before me does it first?

post 35- ditto. nad made his third ugly bandwagon vote. I see it 10 minutes later, I vote him, and include the other cases in the past few pages, a point that hero did not even make (my post is largely the case everyone now follows on nad).

post 40- Explained this vote several times already.

post 44- I unvoted on a doc claim, I must be following the crowd!

post 48- Who else even suggested that what Mokina was saying was anti-town? I believe I was the only one arguing this. Are you seriously calling this "going with the flow"?

Your accusations don't make sense. Following the crowd? A large part of the cases against nad and FC are my own contributions. I was the only one to question the Mason trying to lynch a claimed doc.

You're trying to simplify and misrepresent my last few posts a great deal. I don't know if this is purposeful, or you just didn't get that in depth of a readthrough, but it's a bit suspicious.

[dank]

I still think FC is scum. No breadcrumbs, he still hasn't actually defended himself, he's just come up with a claim that works. He hasn't explained himself, talked about his thought process or built any sort of decent case. In short - the claim looks transparently false.

Do you honestly expect a player of FC's... calibur to lay breadcrumbs or explain his thought process? He's reckless, he's a liability, he's hard to figure out, he's both antitown and scummy, but if he happens to be the doctor, of which there's a good chance of, lynching him would be a very stupid move.

The only reason not to lynch FC would be if he holds a power role, and until I see a counterclaim, I find it very likely.

Will reread tomorrow and hopefully come up with an updated case on nad/anyone else I find suspicious.

[dank]

sigh, why are you still representing my posts?

then you switched when someone else voted nadroj. Well, that's okish, but a bit dicey. I find it very hard to switch my vote that quickly without a really convincing reason (claim or counter-claim, cop result etc etc)

Yes, I pointed out his 3 bandwagon votes, the third being 10 minutes before I posted, that is the central point, coupled with lurking, that makes nad scummy. How is that not a convincing reason?

Then you go back to FC a few posts later after someone else does some work in reviewing the players and trying to hunt scum.

Are you saying I haven't done scumhuting against FC? If so, you've got alot of rereading to do. Like I said, his meta held me back, but in this particular game, his lynch would have been very helpful to town for the reasons I outlined.

Post 44 you unvote without looking anywhere else or doing much of anything, just unvote because you feel you have to. Remember - your reasons for switching votes between nadroj and FC so much was that you found them equally scummy. So where's the vote on nadroj?

This is ridiculous, I unvote because we have a

claimed doctor

, and you're finding it suspicious.

Even your reasoning for being on FC's bandwagon always seems to be nice 'excuse' reasons for tomorrow. Things like 'he's anti-town and unuseful' rather than 'he's scummy'.

Am I wrong? I've been saying his actions are scummy since the very early goings, its well known that he's been scummy. IN ADDITON to that, he is pretty much useless to town, which i'm sure many of you will agree with, and his flip would have given us plenty of info, including possible some hints about the masons, or bandwagon analysis for who jumped on the easy target.

In fact, re-reading closely, you say that you're 'fine with a nad lynch' but you wanted to bring Mokina to the town's attention first. But you didn't know how Mokina was going ot react when you unvoted. So when you unvoted, why not vote nad straight away?

Because I want to give it another look before I place the vote, which'll be later today.

Also, how is my play right now "safe" when i'm pretty much going against the rest of the town?

Its odd, some of you have said things like iamausername: "I am very much in favour of lynching doc claims in closed setups. Docs are overrated anyway.", yet you're still against counterclaiming, which gives us possibly CONFIRMED scum?

qwints posted this a while ago:

*I agree we should not lynch FC today - that's why I unvoted.
*I don't think losing a doc for a scum is a good trade off for a town.
*I do think that scum would be very willing to trade a L-1 scum for a doc.
*I think town is much more likely to believe an unforced claim than a forced one.

To further elaborate on why the doc shouldn't counter-claim today:

1. Nk'ing the doc randomly --> FC lynch
2. A policy of not counter-claiming puts pressure on the scum if FC is the doc.
3. Doc can counter the day before presumed LYLO with no real loss.
4. FC could be outed in an alternative way that doesn't cost us a PR.

Which I can understand. We can probably go about this without counterclaiming. But to lynch a confirmed doc and to be against a counterclaim just sounds ridiculous to me.

But whatever, go for it. If he flips scum, then we're lucky (and apparently i'm his partner). If he flips town, i'm sure there's at least one scum that jumped on the bandwagon to get a doctor lynched, so there will be some analysis there.

I'll vote once I do a reread later today.

[dank]

Also, SC, if you want to lynch FC and think he's scum, as you said in the post where you unvote him, why did you vote nadroj when the momentum was shifting to him?

Also, why did you shift back to FC after a few more votes were placed in that direction? Talk about going with the flow.

[dank]

couple notes:

I think the only area we have content issues is in the unvoting and revoting stuff. You rightly pointed out that I switched from FC and went back - but there's a big difference in yours and mine. You switched from VIABLE wagons which had MOMENTUM. I switched because it looked like the FC wagon was dead and I was trying to keep up the hunting. That's a massive difference. Also, I've made no secret which lynch I'd prefer, it can't be surprising to you that if there's a viable wagon on FC I'll be on it.

The thing I don't get is, if you want to lynch FC, why did you give up on it? As you say, a "genuine scumhunting townie" wouldn't give up because everyone else was losing faith in a case. He'd push for it and try to convince the others its the right choice. In case, you jump on the building nad wagon, and then jump back once iamausername and others do the convincing for you. That's far more opportunistic than anything I did.

Additionally - the point about you not voting nadroj is more significant than you're making it out to be. You are supposedly a person struggling between two scummy alternatives, not knowing which one is worse, teetering between the two. But when you unvote FC after the claim, you don't vote nadroj? I just don't get that from a genuine, scumhunting townie. Where did all the suspicion, that you had just a day or two ago, go? You say you're going to re-read but why? Has nadroj done anything recently to make you doubt the case you had on him before?

Alright, I unvoted after a doc claim and didn't vote for someone else.

Unvote

Any breadcrumbs from you?

B.S.

but

unvote

for now.

unvote

. I think the claim is probably not true, but we'll know soon enough.

Vote Count Eleven

Far_Cry: 2 (nadroj15, SerialClergyman)
nadroj15: 2 (Hero 764, Far_Cry)
qwints: 1 (iamausername)

Not Voting: 7 (dank, kikchiyo, Lowell, Mokina, Nikanor, qwints, Tenchi)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

Current deadline: Saturday, July 18th 8:10 AM EST

You don't find them suspicious for doing the same thing? Lowell had been pushing for a nad case more than I had lately. kik also was ok with his lynch, as I believe qwints was. You don't find them suspicious for voting nad right away too?

[dank]

Maybe that is what I look like, but i'm not going to vote for a claimed doctor. I just don't understand why everyone abandons the chance that he IS our doctor. If the doctor is as valuable as you all say, where you under no circumstance want the real one to counter, what if you happen to lynch our doctor? Does not that bother you the slightest bit?

Like I said, I have no problem voting for FC prior to the claim. But lynching a power role is about the stupidest thing town can do, and I honestly have to believe FC's claim unless there's a counter. I can't stop you guys from doing it, but i'd much rather we lynch someone else today.

[dank]

1. Somewhat V/LA this week.

Noted.

- Mod

2. SC, you never did reply to when I pointed out with your own opportunistic bandwagon jumping in 493. Guess what, Gwyn brought it up again, so you get another chance. Do answer.

[dank]

Dank uses other people's reasons to switch between FC and nadroj.

I do? Are not my reasons for voting nadroj the reason everyone else voted him (post on his bandwagon votes)? Did I not, on several occcasions, lay out why I thought FC was both scummy and anti-town?

Dank switches from VIABLE wagons with votes and momentum. SC doesn't, he only switches when it seems wagons are dead.

Is it not much scummier to switch away a dying bandwagon onto a growing one, even if you say you believe the dying one more. Again, your point does nothing for me. You switched away to nad when many expressed their doubt about FC's claim. Instead of convincing them, you quickly jump onto nad, because you want to build the bandwagon quickly. Do tell me how that isn't far more suspicious than switching between two viable wagon. If both are viable, what exactly is wrong from changing your mind between one lynchable player and another.

Dank has two people he finds equally scummy then unvotes one but prefers to sit there without a vote rather than vote the other.

Why the rush in me voting nad again? The guy hasn't posted since the original bandwagon on him, why do you want me to vote/why did you vote for someone who can't even defend himself here. He was scummy, yes. But why the rush to lynch him before his replacement could even say anything? Don't understand your reason to rush here.

[dank]

Mainly lack of time, i'm in the middle of working at a tennis camp which is 50 hours a week, so i'm mostly V/LA till saturday (i'm here at nights, but not really all that conscious).

I guess we disagree on a few things, fair enough. Painting my lack of vote scummy, however is a reach.

I do not want to lynch FC after a doc claim and after he leaves without being able to defend himself. nadroj was my next suspect, but since 1. He hadn't even posted for quite some time, and was not there to defend himself 2. deadline was extended and 3. he was going to be replaced, why would someone who was town rush his lynch again?

I have not been as useful after the doc claim, I am sorry for that. All I know is I don't want to lynch FC and nadro was my next suspect, but I will refrain from voting until I hear from the replacement. I promise sometime in the next few days, I will make some more useful posts.

[dank]

Hello!

Reading...

it's absolutely ridiculous for you not to say anything considering the situation we're in right now. post something at least.

[dank]

You realize trying to build a bandwagon for the sole reason of not lynching someone else is about as scummy as lynching the confirmed doc, right? What happened to scumhunting, hero?

[dank]

sorry sorry, i meant claimed*. Been a long day.

[dank]

I dont like the bending around kiku's done the last few pages. Going from no lynch without a counterclaim to "dank: shut up and hammer" to I'd rather lynch Lowell, but FC works too, to lynching FC is a horrible idea.

[dank]

My opinion of the FC lynch irrelevant. Hero is throwing his vote on Lowell for the sole reason that he isn't FC, which is a very stupid gamble to make. It's one thing to make a policy lynch for someone who is playing anti-town as I feel FC had been prior to his claim (+ he was scummy), but to policy lynch someone who even kiku calls a "null-tell" player is both stupid and scummy. I'm against almost all policy lynches unless the player's just useless, but I do not think Lowell has been hurting town with his play.

kiku/hero, do you feel he has?

[dank]

If TA is not doc and an nk does go through, real doc NEEDS TO COUNTERCLAIM TOMORROW. Anyone counterclaiming after that time should be auto-lynched.

This is such a anti-town statement that I'm almost willing to policy lynch Kiku for it. The only scenario we need to avoid is doc cc'ing in MYLO or LYLO - that may require a cc tomorrow, but certainly not to start the day.


Dank, your opinion on a Lowell lynch is most certainly not irrelevant. It may not be relevant to your attack on Hero, but 2 days before deadline it's not acceptable to not have an opinion about who we should lynch.

Yes, you're right. I had meant it was irrelevant to Hero.

Anyway, sigh, i've let this game go a bit the last week. Tomorrow night, I promise to have a post and a vote. I'm done work at 7. See you guys then.

[dank]

There is no way we can confirm Lowell is a hider. If he happens to be scum fakeclaiming, hider is just a great role, because he will have a very powerful influence over future lynches, which can be very costly. It's also of course extremely unlikely anyone will ever counter. If he's town, outing himself at this point means he'll confirm someone everyday, and like qwints said, scum will take advantage of it and NK whoever he confirms.

I had wanted to do some additional bandwagon analysis, since there's ALOT of it to look at, but since i'm ridiculously tired and we're hours from lynch, its becoming clear itll be simply between Lowell and FC/ThAdmiral. I'm still uncomfortable lynching a claimed doc, and the Lowell claim looks far more convenient for scum to take advantage of. I will

vote: Lowell

.

ThAdmiral or whoever ends up replacing him really needs to post, its getting ridiculous that he still hasn't.

And again, sorry for inactivity/shitty play lately. Workweek is done.

[dank]

I am certain that scum jumped on the FC wagon. At least one, probably more. We need to analyze how that went on. Can't right not with a massive fever, but I'll try to get on later tonight and give it a look.

Also, torn to shreds? Have we got werewolves here too?

[dank]

edit- Missed the part where Drake wrote "werewolves" in the intro.

[dank]

It was between Lowell and FC.

Doc = more useful than tracker.

and

There is no way we can confirm Lowell is a hider. If he happens to be scum fakeclaiming, hider is just a great role, because he will have a very powerful influence over future lynches, which can be very costly. It's also of course extremely unlikely anyone will ever counter. If he's town, outing himself at this point means he'll confirm someone everyday, and like qwints said, scum will take advantage of it and NK whoever he confirms.

[dank]

SC- Meh, there's really no good way for me to respond to that. It was a combination of unfamiliarity with hider (for some reason thinking he couldn't be investigated), and it coming down to between Lowell and ThAdmiral. After defending the doc for so long, it just seemed Lowell's claim was less believable to me, and it would be a better alternative. I was probably wrong in retrospect, and it was probably a rushed vote (deadline was very close, and I hadn't posted practically all week due to work).

Last week was really sloppy play, hopefully I can makeup for that this week.

Looking back, Tenchi's end of D1 looks pretty bad. He votes FC, makes a couple posts essentially trying to rush the lynch, and then lurks the rest of the way. He seems to be continuing the lurking today.

Tenchi and Nikanor- thoughts on yesterday?

[dank]

Alright, you're going to be busy. Instead of posting something meaningful, or making some sort of point, you say "oh wow, last night sucked", and then go off on your way, without offering anything helpful to town.

That's what makes it lurking over not, the fact that he once again contributed very little.

[dank]

nadroj/Gwynplaine was given a great deal of attention yesterday, but has hardly been mentioned since. I thought i'd go back and look at all the posts in iso.

Besides one post on third bandwagon votes being scummy, nadroj did not contribute in the first 100 posts.

Post 106- Comes back, votes Hero, and repeats accusations that have already been brought up in prior posts. Follows the argument me and kiku were having with Hero.

Post 138- Suggests its better to have masons out in the open now than later.

-Largely missing for next 50some posts, as more scumhunting goes on.

Post 192-

That's a very good point.

Excellent scumhunting.

Post 199-

Also, why no "good point" posts? I understand that it contributed nothing, but I was stating my viewpoint on the subject.

-Several more small posts after 199, none of which have much content. Mostly asking for clarification, or using sayings like "There's no use crying over spilled milk" in regards to the mason claim. I see nothing i'd call honest scumhuting, just clarifications and general comments

Post 270-

That post IS crazy scummy. Vote: Lowell

Post 275- Admits he added nothing. Instead of making a case, says it was purely a pressure vote to get Lowell to post, and will keep the vote on. Does not press Lowell further.

Post 292- More comments to FC- Your post here does not make sense. Does not press him for anything further.

Post 296-

Yup, you're pretty sure of your decisions . . . wait, what decisions?

Way to non-post.

Vote: FarCry

after two more votes on.

Post 300- Defense for bandwagoning:

I know this is bad, but I skimmed. I responded to one post because I saw my name on it. Later I came back and read the thread more thoroughly, seeing the obviously scummy post. By that time the two votes had already been placed.

Post 305-

To add to that: I don't throw my vote around wherever I feel like it. Just because I am suspicious of someone doesn't mean that I will vote them.

Maybe a bit of a scumslip. Admits suspicion alone doesn't drive his votes, and they do happen to come in rapid succesion after a bandwagon forms.

Post 313- Gives a scumlist of the whole town, which basically says X is suspicious because X is scummy. I asked for him to give a suspect and try to make a case, and this is what he produced. Still no scumhunting.

Post 368-

People find me scummy because of my posts where I agreed with someone and then voted them. My thoughts on FC: His posts have an overly defensive tone, and many of them sound like he is flailing and not knowing how to deal with suspicion on him. Not knowing how to respond can go either way (town or scum), but I get a scum vibe from him.

Repeats, almost word for word, his post when he voted FC. Replaces any scumhunting attempt with "I get a scum vibe from him".

And that would be the last we'd hear from nadroj.

Nadroj-

As has been said alot, he lurked. He agreed with others, he re-iterated points others had said. He voted for those points others had brought out, oftentimes in rapid succession of others. He hardly did any scumhunting, and relied on others to get scummy actions out of players, then jumped on them. He looks like scum.

-Gwynplaine replaces in-

Post 509- Very long analysis of the game so far. Thing is, its 95% summary, 5% analysis. He simply reminds us what the main conflict on each page was, and hardly adds any personal thought to it. He does not ask questions of others, he does not pursue those he thought scummy on the reread, he just gives an extremely long summary of the game, which really isn't all that helpful.

Post 512- Asks some questions:

@Hero764: Just to get the answer in black and white: Does your role PM say that you know Mokina is pro-town?

@Mokina: Same question. Does your role PM say that you know Hero764 is pro-town?

@Lowell: Way back in your one long post, you ranked Qwints, Nadroj15, and Iamausername as the three scummiest players. Is that still your opinion?

@Nikanor: Do you have any thoughts? Questions? Anything at all you'd like to share with the rest of the class?

They're questions, but they don't seem like honest in depth scumhunting questions. The first two are simple enough, the second's good, the third isn't really a question, just an appeal to post more. Still not seeing much scumhunting from Gwyn.

Post 529- Trying to figure out if FC should be hammered. Makes a good point about SC switching votes.

Post 541- Good followup to previous point on switching to nad.

Post 544- Agrees that FC has been playing scummy, his claim is dubious. Attributes it to just being a jackass, which is a fair enough point. However, I find his earlier mention of being "damned if I do, damned if I don't" a bit odd.

From 529:

If I hammer Far_Cry at this point, regardless of his alignment/role then Hero764 can say I'm "going with the flow." If I don't, then SerialClergyman, Mokina and Kikuchiyo can say I'm "useless" and "stalling."

Going with the flow is alot scummier than being useless. It almost seems like he doesnt want to hammer FC (who he seems to find the scummiest), because he is afraid of how it will make him look. I don't think a town player need be afraid of how he looks as long as he's honestly scumhunting. The fact that Gwyn both goes after a target (SC) that happened to jump on his wagon, and is so afraid of how he will look if he hammers, paints him a bit suspiciously.

-Largely absent as the discussion on FC vs Lowell goes on for two pages-

Post 581-

I'm not sure I follow the logic about the counterclaim, but the first paragraph of K's post above makes a lot of sense to me. If ThAdmiral is still alive on Day 2, maybe he'll see fit to show up and make a case for himself. In the meantime,

unvote
vote: Lowell

This looks

exactly

like one of nadroj's posts.

-Again absent for a few pages, with vote safely on Lowell-

Gwynplaine-

Comes in with a flat out summary. Pursues SC in what is either honest scumhunting, or perhaps just self defense on the easiest target (his vote was the weakest). Afraid of hammering FC, because it will make him look bad for following the crowd, which won't be as bad as being "useless" and not voting. Once the decision is down to Lowell and FC, Gwyn is almost completely absent from the discussion, but throws in a very nadroj like vote on Lowell, before dissapearing till day 2.

Overall, their behaviors match decently well. Gwyn has certainly done more than nadroj, and I like what she was pointing out with SC's vote. However, besides that, I can't say gwyn's done all that much genuine scumhunting, and again placed yet another quiet, follow the crowd bandwagon vote on Lowell before dissapearing again. At least tenchi somewhat argued for his vote, Gwyn just placed it and left. Perhaps this plays in to Gwyn's concern with looking bad; a quiet post with little content is less likely to be noticed right away.

All in all, i'm going to

vote: Gwynplaine

for the moment. I plan to do more of these iso posts on others when i've got time, and there are certainly a few more players i'd like to look at.

[dank]

And now Dank is doing the thing that I predicted somebody would do -- trying to use the fact that I hesitated to hammer Far_Cry (who -- let us not forget -- was a claimed doctor and about to be replaced) as "evidence" against me.

My point here was that you found FC the scummiest player in the game, by your own words. The only reason I remember you giving for not hammering the player you thought was most scummy was how you'd look after.

Did you not, at that point, find FC the scummiest player, who's doctor claim you yourself called "dubious"? If the claim was dubious, and he was the scummiest player, why did you not hammer? The only reason you gave was the one i mentioned.

[dank]

Alright, when:

A) We were at deadline.

B) ThAdmiral did not even post any argument not to lynch him, and did nothing to calm the suspicions on FC,

Why did you vote for Lowell?

I share your opinion that he could have just been a jackass. But when you're saying he's the scummiest, and you will wait for a reply from his replacement, and the replacement says nothing, why vote Lowell?

[dank]

So you suspected someone more than FC?

[dank]

sorry all, V/LA till friday night. I may make a post or two, but I got called to work this week and i'm really out of it.

[dank]

To clarify- I had thought it would be a 3 man scumteam since there are 12 players. The average in 12 games I have seen is 3 scum or 2 scum + SK, so that was my natural assumption.

I had missed the obvious werewolves reference in the mod's first post, which probably brings scum down to 2, and werewolves to 2. At least, that would be my guess.

[dank]

EBWOP- The average in the 12 player games I have seen.*

[dank]

I don't like this claim at all. You made several posts at the end of D1 about how we can disprove FC if the real doc comes out today, or whenever we reach lylo, yet you just went ahead and killed him to be sure? I can't imagine why any vig would do that; why go for someone who has a chance of being our real doc, a chance you yourself admitted?

I'll be switching my vote to qwints in the near future, but I'll wait for those who havent seen the claim to respond.

[dank]

I'll hammer sometime later tonight, so if Iam and Nikanor have some time if they want to input something.

[dank]

SK = Werewolf?

So, why would we not lynch a claimed werewolf tonight? We still do not know which faction is bigger, maybe its mafia, maybe its werewolves. Qwints, how does lynching you not help town?

[dank]

Also, what?

Thank you.

unvote

I will lynch with a counterclaim.

You're asking another werewolf/sk to cc? 0_O

[dank]

So we have werewolves, Mafia AND a sk? I'm sorry, that's a bit hard to believe for me.

[dank]

What I don't understand is this:

No matter what qwints says, he is scum. We caught him. The faction he belongs to could be werewolves, could be mafia, could be SK, whatever. We don't know. What we do know, is what he claims now is in his best interest to fulfill his win condition. He is not trying to do town any "favors", he is trying to fulfill his win condition.

That said, he is scum, 100%. We won't know what exactly until he flips. If we lynch ANYONE else, the percentage will drop from 100%. It will not be a sure thing.

Why would anyone want to give up that percentage, and believe someone who already lied once, and is most definitely still trying to fulfill his win condition, just because he claims he isn't the type of scum that may be in the majority?

We caught scum. We won't know what kind of scum until we lynch him, but he is scum. And you guys want to go risk lynching someone else?

unvote, vote: Qwints

[dank]

psst, my name is dank. There's just one of me

[dank]

sigh, i'm sorry for the delayed absence, though, I don't know what I could have done after iam's monster case one. The points on werewolves and the hider were truly just newbie mistakes for me, I guess. In general, this game had a bit of a different tone then the few others i've played, so I guess I was kind of new to it.

Nonetheless, gg. Good job scum. Sorry for the absence, town.