Mini 811: Foggy Londontown Mafia - Over!

[Mokina]

/tea-and-bikkies

[Mokina]

Hey, you're modding my newbie game!

Vote: iamausername

Might unvote when you find a replacement for that flaky guy.

[Mokina]

Third vote "random", nom?

Vote: Neferenom

[Mokina]

EBWOP:

Unvote, Vote: Neferenom

[Mokina]

Any special reason you removed your vote, Mokina?

I felt like it. Jumping third on a bandwagon is more suspicious than iamausername not replacing the flaker in my other game, so I consider it an upgrade. In any case, I am confident it will generate conversation.

[Mokina]

Voting for the first person to be the third vote is a bad policy. Wagons are useful to the town and trying to break them up well before they approach a lynch in anti-town unless there is an independent reason for doing so.

Nom hasn't unvoted yet. We'll see.

[Mokina]

Pushing to get me to unvote or change my vote without any stated reason is pretty anti-town. Are you trying to say you took your vote off and put it on me to make me unvote? Why so protective of Iamusername hmm?

I will leave the strawman alone for now.

Yes, it would be antitown to actually push for a wagon unvote ... but so would taking your own vote off the wagon

because other people in the town didn't like it

. Scumhunting involves a certain degree of calling other people out to see if they'll make opportunistic moves - and as you've just done a similar thing to me, I hope you'll understand.

As for your second question, no. If you'd unvoted quickly, it would have looked sketchy, but in the end I don't particularly care one way or another. Someone has to take a hit to get past the random voting stage, and I've sat back enough in my other games.

[Mokina]

So you took your vote off of Iam and put it on me to make me unvote to make me seem scum?

Not

to make you

unvote -

to see

if you do, under the assumption that scum will be particularly eager to please the town. I have no vested interest in you voting for Iam or not doing so, but I would like to know if you're the kind of role that would cave to town pressure.

Yes. I attacked you to get information going. Likewise, you've done the same to me, and I think it's great. I am in full agreement about the lurkers and hope they will post soon.

Awww, we're leaving the RVS already? Anyways, it is true that the third vote on a wagon is scummy, even if it is a random vote. The thing is,

there's nothing scummy about Neferenom's reaction

. With a bandwagon accusation this early in the game, I think more information could be gained from her reaction than the actual bandwagon vote.

QFT. I agree that Neferenom's reaction doesn't seem like she's overeager to please other people, and despite the vote on her, she's sticking to her guns. Overall, this is a protown vibe.

Unvote

for now, since I don't particularly suspect her. Readying a vote on a random lurker ... get postin'!

[Mokina]

How is Lowell suspicious?

Lurkalicious, but he's already explained why.

[Mokina]

Your uncalled for defense of FC is noted.

I was under the impression that FC found Lowell's lurking suspicious.
Lowell explained the reason for his lurking.
I concluded that the cause of FC's suspicions had been addressed.

Anyone trying to follow a town current by attacking a semantic point like this one is notable, as far as I'm concerned.
If you're scum, that's a really convenient way to set yourself up for a vote.

We need 7 votes to lynch. Placing a 3rd "random vote" especially this early is nowhere scummy. because it is not as dangerous as placing a 3rd vote in say, a newbie game.

Bandwagon pressure makes sense, but once a wagon's actually started, it can begin to draw in opportunistic scum. Nom's post, with no explanation and the pretense of RVS (even though we were clearly leaving it), felt like as good a place as any to begin.

[Mokina]

FC said Lowell was lurking AND suspicious. If they meant that Lowell was suspicious BECAUSE they were lurking, then there is no need to word the accusation in such a manner. To me it reads the same as how you are saying you are reading me: FC set up a convenient way to vote for what may have become a town current. My vote came

first(for lurking)

, then came FC's unvote and accusation of lurking AND suspicion. Get it?

I went back to look at Far_Cry's post ... seems as if we each read it differently the first time. I thought it was referring to Lowell's absence, whereas you thought there was a second reason. Misunderstanding, sorry to pin a semantic attack on you.

FC hasn't actually resolved whether or not there's an additional reason besides Lowell's absence, but he should. The point about the scumvenience of said vote was good call; duly noted.

[Mokina]

Note to all: Stop answering questions not directed at you.

QFT

Providing a defense for someone else while quoting someone explaining why defending others is bad. Wow.

unvote, vote: Hero764

Defending other people, especially early on is anti-town.

I don't know what to say to this. Both you and kikuchiyo have been really good about scumhunting in a game full of lurkers, but it keeps coming back to this same argument about "defending other people" being scummy. I feel as if in this town, I can't suggest that an accusation might not be as well-founded as the accuser thinks without provoking that kind of response. To put it simply, you're ignoring the input of others and it's counterproductive.

I don't think our group (or any group in mafiascum for that matter) will lynch anyone within the first few real life days in the game so I don't see why people would push to stop wagons, let alone RVS wagons. So I really find it interesting when people start defending people this early.

Judgment call. I can only speak for my own case, but I believe it's perfectly fine to call someone on a vague, semantic, or otherwise weak attack. I'm mildly opposed to null-argument wagons on principle, though I realize they are a necessary evil in some others' perceptions.

I suppose they give off scumvibes for me, simply because of the ease with which a well-crafted accusation (regardless of basis) can garner a string of votes near the beginning of the game (due to the tendency to wagon directly after RVS). I would rather have this day take twice as long and get a solid case than rush to conclusions.

[Mokina]

@Mokina
There's a distinction between "suggest[ing] that an accusation might be as well-founded as the accuser thinks" and "defending other people." Hero has been saying what farcry
intended in his statement, not attacking kiku for poor/scummy reasoning. In doing so, he's pre-empted a line of inquiry without beginning a new one.

Hero has been saying what he understood from Far_Cry's statement. While it's not particularly helpful to the town, it's not antitown either. The line of inquiry is still open, and I would like to hear from FC as soon as possible.

I think you're wrong to suggest that "well-crafted accusations" and a "string of votes" at the beginning of the day means that the town has rushed to conclusions rather than build a solid case. The reactions we see to those accusations and the voting patterns they produce are EXACTLY how we can build solid cases. A lack of accusations leads to a lack of information and a poor first lynch, no matter how long the day takes.

Please reread my post and come back when you understand that I am talking about null-argument bandwagons in particular. I believe they are a poor substitute for real scumhunting and very likely to result in a mislynch. Maybe it's just me, but a slow first day is fine.

I am not referring to "well-crafted accusations" that contain real, plausible reasons why someone might have been acting antitown. There's a dearth of content in Foggy Londontown so far, but that's rapidly changing and the worthy arguments will arrive soon enough. We do not need random votes and groundless bandwagons at this point.

[Mokina]

No, we were NO where near leaving RVS when I placed my vote.. Hence, my vote.

By the time anyone places a third bandwagon, it's not random. The RVS does not end when you feel like it. It ends when random votes are replaced with calculated ones.

As for this part you're suggesting all the town votes would stay on the person and town would let a quicklynch/mislynch happen... If that did all the town would have to be very dumb IMO. OR are you saying you'd rather take twice as long and never let a BW get up that high? That is kind of scummy. Either way I don't follow your logic here.

Could you possibly address me as if I

might

have an opinion you haven't though of? If you're town, it behooves you to consider everyone's thoughts. If you're scum, it makes you look less scummy. Regardless, its good gameplay and etiquette. To answer your question:

of course

other towns have let D1 mislynches happen in the past, even this early. I am not going to assume Foggy Londontown is particularly smart.

...the fact that he spoke FOR someone else IS suspicious. That basically creates a stalemate for town as no REAL information can be gained. We all speculated what was meant but that is all we could do. Clarification was asked for a reason.

The semantics of FC's post did not make him seem remotely scummy, so at the time I didn't even consider kikuchiyo's question an attack. I thought she'd just misread his post, and I completely agree with Hero - pointing out an error in someone else's case isn't scummy at all. Kiku was fabricating a case because FC didn't say exactly what she would in his situation.

Wat doesn't make sense to me is why Hero and Mokina were being "not hostile" towards me, trying to answer questions directed at me

I'm not going to be hostile to anyone. That's not a good playstyle, IMHO. But here's one for you. Did you suspect Lowell for anything other than lurking? We still want to know.

In fact, Mokina said Hero was doing good scumhunting this game. Has anyone seen it?

Please read my posts - the only time I've ever complimented someone on scumhunting, it was directed at you and qwints via post quoting. I made no mention of Hero - he hasn't been scumhunting at all, to my knowledge. Do you have some kind of Strawman Mokina win condition or something?

I'm really getting sick of this. You're making up reasons to vote for other people, with no basis at all, post-RVS, then not listening to the input of the rest of us. I cite the way you dealt with Hero, who also tried to explain that it might be a semantic attack ... you steamrolled right over him. It's antitown and

FoS: kiku

-worthy at the very least.

I'm annoyed, it's late, and my post quality is likely terrible, but at least I'm awake enough to encourage inactives to return to the game. I hope someone who has been activelurking (clearly he's reading the game, as he asked for clarification on a term) can join us.

Vote: nadroj15

[Mokina]

I am not grandstanding on a "FC Lied!" platform. I am pointing out the ambiguity of his statements and your "friendly" interpretation. Why are you so adamant about defending FC? Do you think he is incapable of defending himself?

Hero's trying to defend

himself

at this point. He has been trying to justify the initial attack on you, which was a perfectly valid argument. I see nothing wrong with objecting to a vote based on semantics. I can only conclude that you have been fabricating a case against Hero because he attacked you.

Newbies might do that, but you seem to be confident of yourself.

Experienced protowns don't make counter-cases. They know that legitimate players can make errors in judgement, nay,

need

to if they want to win. If you were part of the town, I suspect you'd behave similarly. Scum, on the other hand, always know what they're doing - they're killing off protown threats in a convenient manner, and they start with the ones who notice their weak arguments right off the bat.

My side. I think it's time to lynch Hero.

You want a roleclaim from him? It's not even L-1 yet, but you're slavering at the thought of having him claim a role that might reveal some kind of masonic connection. If you aren't part of the masonry and you're actually protown, you

don't

ask for that information. It's in the interests of the mafia to have someone rolefish for masons, and you're either being a complete antitown tool or you're obvscum.

Well, one. If you are masons, please claim. If not, its time to swing. Or at least get Hero to L-1 or L-2 and have him claim. His behavior is ridiculous."

What's ridiculous is the rolefishing in the above post, and it looks as if you'd be fine with a quicklynch too. I am not standing for this.

Unvote, Vote: kikuchiyo

[Mokina]

Mokina and Lowell are both parasites to this argument at the moment and I would like to here more from them.

Apart from the numerous stated points, sure.

How is my case fabricated? I have pointed out TWO DISTINCT INSTANCES OF HERO INTERPRETING POSTS IN A CHARITABLE FASHION. Nothing more. I have made no other accusations.

You seem pretty anxious to have the town believe Hero truly trusted Far Cry. Why would that make sense for scum? Do you think FC's a scumpartner? I am voting for you precisely because you have made no other accusations. You're voting on a weak case with no plausible antitown evidence, and your latest quicklynch adventure makes me think you know that he's the one you want to lynch anyway.

There are two possible scenarios. If you started the game with information that Hero is antitown, let us know. Otherwise, I will continue to assume that you are the scum, starting the game knowing damn well that he's town.

I went back to look at Far_Cry's post ... seems as if we each read it differently the first time. I thought it was referring to Lowell's absence, whereas you thought there was a second reason. Misunderstanding, sorry to pin a semantic attack on you.

FC hasn't actually resolved whether or not there's an additional reason besides Lowell's absence, but he should. The point about the scumvenience of said vote was good call; duly noted.

I am merely acknowledging that you may have been reading it differently and was prepared to let the poor reasoning slide. We had two different interpretations of an ambiguous statement and I called for FC's clarification.

When he did not clarify, you continued to attack him for it using a purely semantic argument ...

assuming

that you were right and I was wrong. You were determined to find something wrong with him in particular. That would almost make me suspect some kind of investigative power role, except that we haven't had a night phase yet.

To put it simply, I suspect you know his identity and are part of an informed minority.

I do not place any trust in FC's statements, but the point you chose to pursue was weak, flimsy, and trivial. You voted for him based on it, then unvoted when there was a clear town current against it. At the moment, you look like the most opportunistic player here and my vote stands.

I thought it said "are part of the masonry". Not "aren't". However, the point still stands. I have no problem at all with a day 1 mason claim when one or both parties are under serious pressure or in danger of being lynched.

Would I ask them to claim out of the blue?

No.

Well, one. If you are masons, please claim. If not, its time to swing.

Or at least get Hero to L-1 or L-2 and have him claim

. His behavior is ridiculous.

In the above posts, as soon as you suspect Hero is a mason or other linked role, you ask him to claim or die. If this isn't out of the blue, I don't know what is.

People are already starting to bandwagon (see Lowell, who didn't really explain his vote) thanks to your post. In the scenario you're hoping for, if this wagon hits L-1 and he and another mason claim, the scum will be very happy to have two confirmed roles.

Tenchi, any thoughts? Good-friend-I-probably-alienated-earlier Nom? We need a dialogue that isn't just me, Hero, and kiku bickering.

[Mokina]

Having two confirmed town players while there are twelve players alive, two or three of whom are scum?

Or having two confirmed town players while there are three players alive, one of whom is scum?

The claim would clear them both which only benefits town.

Looks like Iam got to it first. Uh... yeah, confirmed masons aren't worth dirt on D1. Their value increases the closer we get to endgame. Scum naturally will kill them as soon as they claim to prevent this value from manifesting. They only improve lynch chances for one day. Remember fractions? 2/3 is a much bigger confirmed town fraction than 2/7. Q.E.D, a claim on D1 doesn't benefit the town an ounce.

Kiku, your interpretation is either a fundamental "lack of understanding for how the game of mafia works" or genuine, scummalicious mason rolefishing. Along those lines,

FoS

out to Lowell for loving D1 mason claims and being lurkish and being suspicious.

Ha ha. I went there.

Do you know that Hero is town?

...and apparently it doesn't just extend to Hero and FC, I'm a mason target too. Is Iam next? Qwints? Find out next episode! I am getting absolutely sick of this.

If Hero is scum and knows FC is town then he has motivation to defend him. i.e. if the FC wagon gained steam and was then lynched and flipped town, scumHero would be looked at as protown. I

can't speculate on whether or not they are scum partners

because Hero's defense could be seen both ways. To wit, I have pointed out again and again that I find Hero's behavior in giving FC the benefit of the doubt to be "anti-town".

And you've been speculating about other people having alignment knowledge? In the above post, you come to the conclusion that Hero was scummy in his defense based on the assumption that one of the following is going on:

• Hero is scum, FC is a townie. Hero buddies up in hopes of favors.
  
• Hero is scum, FC is scum. Hero protects him from a vote.

Marvelous logic. If we assume that Hero is scum, we can rightly conclude that in this circumstance, Hero's actions were driven by... scumminess!

Does anyone else notices how very, very circular this is? Her fabrication fails to mention the other two elements in the 2x2 grid that is Mafia:

• Hero is a townie, FC is a townie. Hero prevents him from being attacked for semantics.
  
• Hero is a townie, FC is scum. Hero
  prevents him from being attacked for semantics
  .

I rest my case.

Mod: Doublepost deletion of above?

What doublepost?
- Mod

[Mokina]

To be fair, there is some value to confirmed masons on day 1 - just not as much as there is later on. Also, Q.E.D. should go at the end of the proof.

My logical liberty, I guess. If it's

quod erat demonstrandum

, wouldn't my last sentence be "It has been demonstrated ... a claim on D1 doesn't benefit the town an ounce," which makes sense? I suppose it's traditional to put it at the very end. :)

So, according to your logic, Hero is town? No chance he is scum? You do realize that either FC or Hero or both could be scum in this game, right?

Every member of the town has to consider all four possibilities when talking about a situation like this, even you. The argument you carried on against Hero for several pages was fundamentally flawed, because you did not consider all four - only the two that conveniently allowed your argument to take shape. I am attacking the validity of your case against Hero because you used blatant circular reasoning.

You left out the "masons" part.

+1 point for kiku! I concede, you wanted him to very specifically

claim mason

or die. How does that make you any less scummy, pray tell?

Haha, what an excellent way to conveniently arrange for someone to be "heading for a lynch." I am not sure I can agree with how you answered Iamausername's pop quiz...

First option, especially when one of the two players who could be confirmed is heading for a lynch. Second option is wishful thinking. If they could fly under the radar that long it would be nice, but claiming early protects other town pr's from night kills, netting us more info.

Even if your hypothetical masons don't claim early, a handful of power roles are unlikely to die due to a random nightkill pick N1. They are, however, by way of simple math, more likely to die due to a random scum nightkill on, say, N4. Plus, scum pick up many more PR tells in that time and investigators are more valuable by then. No, if there's a linked role pair in play here, they will reveal themselves at the most opportune time for as much town confirmation as possible to happen, before the scum can react. Nobody should be trying to make them confirm before they have to.

Revealing mason information is not to be taken lightly, because such a confirmation can serve a crucial town role if executed at the right time. To give an example, a pair of masons might consider it when an investigative role claims and reveals a night check list. If a cop has checked out several different people by then, the masons should totally confirm one another. Unless it's a huge game, at that point scum are screwed. They would would be forced to choose between the cop (most likely), the confirmed innos, and both masons.

Overwhelming numbers of people who know each other's town alignment are called an informed majority, and that's what we are aiming for. Combined confirmations are pretty much an instant town win, whereas splitting them up and allowing the mafia enough time to kill the innos as they arrive is stupid. I conclude that the second option presented by Iam is preferable. Q.E.D.?

[Mokina]

I am confused here. If I consider all four options when interrogating a player, how do I effectively glean information? At some point one must abandon the obvious mathematical statiscs and go with what they think. Hero's defense and argument seemed scummy to me, hence my vote and subsequent interrogation. If you haven't noticed, I unvoted a while back and am allowing much more discussion to take place. At this point it seems that you are doing to me exactly what you claim I did to Hero. Thoughts?

You have to consider which conclusions don't make sense. Let's say you built up a legitimate and full case against FC, asked the right questions, and actually scumhunted. I might actually be agreeing with you right now, and my notes would look like:

Kiku brings out some serious evidence against FC, Hero defends...

• Hero is scum, FC is a townie. Hero buddies up in hopes of favors.
  
• Hero is scum, FC is scum. Hero protects him from a vote.
  
• Hero is a townie, FC is a townie. Hero protects him from a weak argument.
  
  
• Hero is a townie, FC is scum. Hero protects him from a weak argument.
  
  
  
  or, I guess
  
  
  
• Both are masons, Hero protects FC because he's town and Hero wants town to win.

Eliminated Uninformed Town Hero, since it's not in the interests of the town to derail a real case.

For the purposes of voting and probable motivation, you can remove some possibilities from the list if they don't make sense - I think the reason you went about your argument the way you did is that you honestly believe your accusation was based on something worthwhile.

As it stands, I don't think it's outside of reason to think Hero might be town counterattacking a semantic argument on principle.

[Mokina]

Thank you. I had to reread her posts a couple of times, but then I realized they just don't make any sense.

Please. I am voting for you because it doesn't make sense for town to make the kind of arguments you did. You accused Hero of ... what, exactly? Defending Far_Cry? You attempted to mislead the town into thinking the circumstances could only mean Hero was scum was antitown - when in fact you were pushing what was essentially a semantic case on two different people.

The only reason you backed down was because people didn't buy it. I have explained my suspicions before, and I would appreciate if you would actually make a statement on your vote v. Hero.

[Mokina]

Sorry, nad, but what else can I say?

I don't even feel like we need a "case" against her

. Her posts are clearly backwards. The fact that she has now backtracked to the FC case and changed her opinion in regards to me ...

Do you believe that, in general, it's a good idea to vote for someone with nothing to go on? And for the record, changes of opinion are okay and expected in mafia. I happen to think you're a bit scummy for pushing a weak case on FC, but way scummier for misrepresenting Hero and generally blowing it out of proportion.

I've stated my points. No regrets here.

[Mokina]

If she thinks kiku honestly believes that her accusations are worthwhile, then how is kiku scummy for making those accusations? That doesn't make any sense.

I'm talking about the driving point of the argument itself. Kiku as a player is under the impression that she can convince the town using an argument based ultimately around her personal interpretation of the post "Lowell is lurking and is suspicious."

That is never a worthwhile accusation, regardless of actual alignment. When I tried to point that out at the beginning, she had a lash-out reaction ... and more so when Hero did, with a vote. I read newbscum.

How can I be misleading town into thinking Hero is scum? If you are town then you wouldn't know whether or not Hero was scum and could therefore not make such a baseless accusation.

Hero could be buddying mafia, or an FC-linked mason, or a plain townie who doesn't like groundless arguments. He could be anything, Kiku - I am aware that his pressing of the issue against does not say anything about his alignment.

Of course

scum pretend to be townies scumhunting when the opportunity arises, and that's my point. If they're too opportunistic, it's a tell.

[Mokina]

...yet neither of you is willing to accept the very reasonable(even if fallible) explanations behind my arguments. You are both also supporting a wagon with an RVS vote still attached to it. Oppurtunistic behavior imo.

Fallible explanations cut no ice with me and I tend to ignore them. Townies and scum alike can make weak arguments, and I was quite willing to ignore the flaws with your case at the beginning. However, the abrupt switch and tunnel vision against

not FC but your attacker

looks to me like scum trying to lynch an obv threat by whatever means possible.

Epic distancing going on between you and Hero? Maybe, and I am not entirely convinced he's protown, but I am pretty much sold on the case against you. As for the RVS, that's Tenchi's fault. He might do well to consider the actual merits of a vote against you now. It would be unwise of him to wait until L-1.

218: Kiku avoids the issue so much, it's funny. You're trying to find a reason why we shouldn't vote for you, and you come up with something totally not related to your scumminess?

[Mokina]

221? I did write those statements. After the first, you went after me. By the second, you were under the impression that I was your buddy or something, and I was under the impression that you understood why a semantic argument didn't make sense.

But you didn't stop. In fact, you didn't even go after Far_Cry, which would have made you seem stupid but would have been a null tell about alignment. No, you stopped attacking me and targeted the nearest new threat, Hero. And trying to lynch anyone that will disagree with you later on, rather than the ones that look the most scummy? That's not protown behavior at all.

So you are willing to capitalize on Tenchi's vote?

Should we be counting the number of times you strawman me? Tenchi's vote is his own. It would reflect badly on his towniness if he placed it randomly and then held it there, even as the votee accumulated a wagon. But a random vote does not grant immunity to the target, and if you think you have a convincing argument for your innocence or addressed any of my suspicions, you clearly haven't been reviewing your own posts.

Your attack against me seemed to gain steam when I attacked you...

Your case against me REVOLVES around the fact that you believe I am trying to get rid of a pro-town threat(Hero). You can't now be suspicious of him as well without that suspicion weakening your case on me.

I'm suspicious of everyone, but you're the only one counterattacking every argument against you. Observe...

• Hero attacked you for calling FC suspicious on a weak argument.
  
• You lashed out at Hero, seeing him as a threat.
  
• I found this defensiveness scummy and placed a vote...
  
• Then
  you made nice with Hero and voted for me.

Before that, he was the main person pressing the issue of FC's semantics against her. In the earlier argument Kiku counterattacked rather than addressing the focal point of the argument. This says defensive scum - and even more so now that she has unvoted him and targeted me, the only person running an active case against her. Kiku ... quite simply, my case

revolves

around your habit of locking in in the nearest person who seems to be a threat and fabricating a case against them.

You had no evidence against Hero other than that he attacked you! Does it make sense for a protown player to push a case like that? Why are you trying to kill off, very specifically, those who are voting for you?

Answer me this, if nothing else. Ugh.

[Mokina]

I don't believe FC voted for me

. I have also not brought a case against Tenchi, so your second question is kind of stupid seeing as the only people I find suspicious who happen to be voting me are you and Hero.

He didn't. You didn't attack him, you attacked Hero, then switched targets when he let off and I started pointing out your weak-argument defense. You vote for the person voting you rather than addressing their suspicions, and that's both antitown and another reason for me to make a case against you.

I have also not brought a case against Tenchi, so your second question is kind of stupid seeing as the only people I find suspicious who happen to be voting me are you and Hero.

I have no doubt right now that Tenchi's going to unvote and write some stuff when he comes back, regardless of alignment. Even if Tenchi's town, you aren't worried about him at the moment - it would look far too suspect to go active and not immediately unvote.

That is exactly what he is doing and yet you are willing to let it stand as opposed to question his motivations. I am willing to buy the rl excuse at this time, but that doesn't change the fact that he has still left his vote floating since the rvs.

And yes, you read that correctly. For once, I completely agree with you. It would indeed look scummy if he held it there even as an active player, and I certainly expect an analysis and replacement of his vote when he returns. As of now, though, it means nothing because he hasn't read our quote war. You can't exactly attack him for having that vote, seeing as he's V/LA.

Its funny how you keep accusing me of "avoiding" issues when you are clearly avoiding any discussion about your giant hypocritical scum slip.

Sigh, okay.

Tell you what. I'll give you a PBPA of my points against you if you give me the same for your case against me. No strawman, just tell it how it is. I will even throw in a free list of suspicions, just for you.

Give me a moment ...

[Mokina]

I guess it's too late to drop tells.

Reciprocate: Hero

. I am a mason with Hero. Breadcrumb in 186, top to bottom, reads [ME + HERO].

In truth, Mokina knows nothing about the scum other than Hero's innocence. First time playing mason and I had to go chainsaw-defend Hero like an idiot, demonstrating some pretty obvious alignment knowledge. I apologize for not playing like a proper informed minority, and I am fully aware that one of us will be dead tonight.

Also, who am I kidding?

Unvote

. Kiku's argument would have convinced me if it weren't for the confirmation bias of knowing Hero's motivations.

[Mokina]

Understandable. But if she were to flip town I could make the same argument regardless of whether or not I had made that statement. As it stands I don't see her as flipping town. She's agreed to post her case against me, yet still has not addressed the "slip".

Slip was a tell that I knew Hero's alignment. What with your obsession with finding linked roles, I thought you might pick it up ... but in retrospect, there wasn't much chance of that. We'd already tunnel visioned each other.

[Mokina]

Your whole argument of not understanding interpretations is now void with your post about Mokina, and you now indeed admit the post was up for interpretation.

So, why did it take you 10 pages to admit that? Why did you spend 10 pages playing dumb to defend FC?

I imagine it was so we wouldn't have to claim and get killed N1, which now we will. Kiku pushed this one too far.

[Mokina]

You're right - of course I'm bitter. One of us will die and the advantage of having a late mason confirmation will be lost. Please don't misquote me on this one ... I attempted to play as a townie, using every advantage I had (including alignment info). Rather than picking up on mason tells, you assumed the informed minority was mafia - not an altogether bad assumption, but one which you made nonetheless.

What's done is done. We've all screwed up.

They either give us confirmed townies to narrow down chances for a miskill, or save possible power roles some nights by having scum kill off masons first, who have no night actions. The claim is good for the town and good for your win condition, so why are you crying about it?

The claim is not good for my win condition

or yours, if you're town

. Protowns would have been much better off with a mason claim later in the game, when there's a higher chance of an investigative hit, a longer list of confirmed innos, and the possibility of a failsafe process-of-elimination scumhunt. Instead, myself and Hero were backed into a corner and now we have the current shitshow.

Damn right I'm annoyed about it.

[Mokina]

Dank, you're playing the blame game too. It's not something to argue about. Truth be told, there was no need for a mason reveal today, and I still think doing so was a very bad idea.

Without kikuchiyo's tunnel push over something so frivolous as Hero's semantic interpretation, we wouldn't be here. Nobody noticed multiple linked role tells - if they had, we might not be here. And yes, without my ridiculous chainsaw defense, we wouldn't be here. Even at that point we could have recovered, but because of Hero's impulse to roleclaim, we are here.

I guess

backed into a corner

was the wrong way to put it, because it's ultimately a fairly distributed problem and I implied it was Kiku's alone. What's done is done, and for the record, I don't agree with Hero on Kiku's scumminess ... all hotheadedness about weak cases aside, I believe I was witnessing an actual scumhunting attempt v. Hero, not someone faking it. Can't really explain, but it seemed too locked-in to be the usual story of scum taking advantage of town currents.

[Mokina]

That's a very good point.

Unvote, Vote: Mokina

That post IS crazy scummy.

Vote: Lowell

You're doing it again; adding nothing to the argument but a one-liner when you make a vote change. Newbtell? Following the town, tal vez?

I'm going to go ahead and

FoS: Nadro

, though I feel my vote would better be placed elsewhere.

[Mokina]

Haha, FC caught it while I was writing.

Hes makin himself too scummy, if u know wat I mean. Obviously, he wouldn't be doin such stupid stuff if he was mafia. I still hav to say he's suspicious, but I will leave him for later.

I have a few disagreements here. The "too scummy" fallacy is a lot like Too Townie ... if someone's walking and talking quite blatantly like a mafia member, they probably are. I have also noticed the pretty obvious WIFOM in "he wouldn't be doin such stupid stuff if he was mafia," and it shouldn't be treated as decisive either way.

Lowell could totally be scum. Nadro could be scum too. Not sure which to choose, but I will do a post review.

[Mokina]

B) Why would scum be "happy" to have two confirmed roles? Two "confirmed townies" on day 1 effectively reduces our lynch pool, and increases our chances of hitting scum WITHOUT SACRIFICING ANYONE.

Let me hint you with one word: SHOPPINGLISTFORSCUM

What he said. That extends to all of these wonderful

suspicion

grocery lists people have been making over the last couple pages.

Kiku, the reason we don't want masons to die early (all assumptions of EveryonePlaysLikeASurvivor aside) is that they have a very, very useful passive benefit to the town. We can't assume the scum will target them instead of your hypothetical cop/doc/vig dynamic trio, but keep in mind that each morning, we improve the chances of lynching scum.

Also keep in mind that we don't decide who gets killed, but listen ...

Masons appreciate in value over time ... that is to say, today with 12 alive and 7 to lynch, we have a chance (larger or smaller, depending on faction size) out of ten of lynching scum. Tomorrow, assuming a lynch and nightkill, we have a chance out of eight if the masons are still alive, but maybe only a chance out of nine if one of us dies. If one of us miraculously survives to the endgame, there might be a mason, a mafioso, and a townie - town win, if we've been observant.

This is a rather polemic position for you to be taking, and that reflects favorably on your towniness. I doubt an actual intelligent scum would want to draw that much attention to herself. However, I do believe you are incorrect on the value of masons - we do matter. It's a passive effect on the town now, but we'll matter in a few days, and that's why it's better to wait on the claim.

Vote Count Eight

nadroj15: 3 (dank, Hero 764, Far_Cry)
Far_Cry: 2 (nadroj15, qwints)
qwints: 1 (Lowell)
Wiirdo: 1 (iamausername)
Lowell: 1 (Wiirdo)

Not Voting: 4 (kikuchiyo, Mokina, Neferenom, Tenchi)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

Deadline: Saturday, July 11th 8:10 AM EST

[Mokina]

It's not really up to you to say we failed to talk our way out of it - you were quite determined to kill one of us, and if you'd simply let the town move on, you could have harbored your quiet mason suspicions anyway. You're not being a hero here, as you've effectively forced us into choosing an option we might have avoided.

Time will tell whether this is for the best, but in my experience, shoehorning power roles into a claim is rarely a good idea.

[Mokina]

My attack was against Hero/FC. Hero's defense of FC is still shoddily explained. You are both ignoring the wifomic possibility fo a possible town doc choosing to protect one of the masons. Further, in a five man lylo with two remaining scum and two masons, a mason claim doesn't help one bit. So I reject the reasoning that Mokina has set forth as anything other than plausible speculation. Town is better for the claim, regardless of the truth behind it.

Yeah, I feel like it's safe to ignore that possibility. If it happens, it's happy coincidence, but we aren't sure A) if there's a doc, B) if they plan to protect a mason, C) which mason, and D) whether it will be the same one as the scum.

And actually, consider the five-man lylo.

• Two scum back each other up versus the townie (they can't go after the masons, duh).
  
• Two masons recognize this and back each other up versus one of the scum.
  
• The townie knows who the masons are and joins their side.
  
• With 5 alive, it's 3 to lynch. A scum dies, the other NKs someone.
  
• Morning comes, with a mason, a townie, and a scum. Obvious 2v1 town win.

I didn't have "mason" suspicions. I had "scum" suspicions. You chose your way out of it by claiming.

Hero chose to claim, and no, you didn't give us all that many other options.

But back to scumhunting - kikuchiyo doesn't seem to want to ingratiate herself with very many people at all, and rather than smiling and agreeing with everything two newly-claimed masons say, she's positively hostile. This comes across as highly protown! It would be risky of scum

not

to buddy with the masons right now - if we survive to the LyLo, they won't want to have painted a target on themselves, and if one of us is to be killed tonight, they don't want to take heat tomorrow.

[Mokina]

Mafia wouldn't so openly push for a lynch like she does. I do suspect perhaps she is mason, but I'm really torn 50/50 about it.

Double masons, FC?

[Mokina]

Oh wait, never mind. I second look through, there can't be an actor.

Actor? That's a weird, rare vote restriction. What makes you think this game is special?

[Mokina]

Prodding

Mokina and Wiirdo.

Guess maybe I should have been doing this color thing all along...

Here. I've lost track of this game a bit, but I might do a readthrough of recent events.

[Mokina]

Kiku: any interactions in particular you'd like to quote? Far Cry changes his stance against both of us multiple times - remaining quiet at the beginning, arguing a few times against us during the Big Fight, then telling Hero he shouldn't have claimed. I'll do a reread of FC, because I think the inconsistency

could

be based on what seems to be the best opportunity in town at any given time...

... but I don't know - still reading some serious newb from him, and maybe one who initially thought he would make a better impression by saying he had experience. If you believe his many inconsistencies are calculated, a few quotes to work with would not go amiss.

Anyway, prod received, FC-specific reread in progress.

[Mokina]

You don't think a doc for 1/3 (i'd guess 3 scum in this game) of the scum team is a good tradeoff? Without a real doc claiming, I can't see any reason to lynch FC today, so we'd essentially be letting scum roam free, where we could lynch him now.

Weird assumption here, considering that you are simultaneously denying that the claim was scummy. I don't like the way this is worded at all, the "letting scum roam free" while opposing his lynch. Could some others reread this post and tell me if I'm overly worried?

FoS: dank

There are a lot of good reasons why a legitimate doc won't claim, even when there's a wagon. The main one is that they will immediately be unprotected and shot, which makes it easier for scum (especially on day one). However, that makes it an excellent claim for scum late on a wagon, since the inevitable danks of the world will push for a counterclaim and the real doctor will be exposed.

As far as not claiming till later, if there's a D1 doc claim by scum, and the real doctor claims a few days later... who will town most likely believe? The real doctor will certainly get lynched, it just wouldn't make sense to lynch FC then.

That's why we lynch FC today. No dithering, no counterclaims.

Vote: Far Cry

I'm not afraid to do it. I'm a mason, bitches.

[Mokina]

In my experience, doctors

don't

claim. Doctors keep their heads down, even to the end. What do we stand to gain by letting him live tonight? If he's simply a doctor who doesn't know how the role is played, he'll either get NK'd or they'll leave him alive, knowing that we will do their job for them tomorrow. I ask then, what do we stand to gain by not cardflipping him as soon as we can?

He's either scum influencing the town or he's a doctor, and right now if he's a doc he's useless. I'm not surprised at the jumping-off of the wagon ... nobody wants to be associated with a possible doc lynch, regardless of alignment. But the reasons for his scumminess have not changed - he's just made a clever claim and wants to see how long it will hold.

[Mokina]

..so you're against having the doc come out and counterclaim to give us caught scum, in favor of lynching what could easily be our real doctor?

Absolutely.

The doc

should not claim here. The scum should die.

[Mokina]

I claim: doctor

Hey, claimed doc ... can you protect yourself? Does your role PM say anything about that?

Shhh. No hints.

[Mokina]

I don't quite get what you're saying here. Where was I denying that the claim was scummy/admitting it was town? I don't even get what that has to do with anything. I was saying that if there's a counterclaim and it catches us scum on D1, I think we should go through with it, instead of letting that caught scum that could be lynched D1 continue to roam free, with the assumption that he's the real doc when we can prove he isn't. Like letting an easy lynch get away in favor of a tougher lynch later on, where the counterclaim could not be as easily believed.

When a member of the mafia is backed into a corner

a la claim or die

, "doctor" makes a rather convenient fake. Nobody wants to lynch a doctor, for starters - it's the most important role. Also consider that the real doctor wants to remain unnoticed for as long as possible too - it's exactly the same playstyle as scum. Finally, the fakeclaim may make him or her mistakenly believe in the advisability of a counterclaim. Except that outed docs die pretty fast.

If FC's scum and he was going to be hammered anyway, bringing the doc down with him will be a major trophy. If there's no claim, possibly due to no doctor in the setup, but everyone unvotes, that's acceptable to the scum too. Dank is pushing a road that favors the antitowns right now while very clearly distancing himself from FC.

[Mokina]

Really? I find that hard to believe.

Unlike most roles, it is never in their best interest to claim. Doctors can and should aid a town without the townsfolk even knowing it, and they're one of the only roles where it's advisable to fakeclaim even as a protown.

[Mokina]

No, you're pushing for an FC lynch and not once accepting the chance that maybe, oh maybe, he's the real doctor. I think that's much scummier than anything i've been doing.

Anyone can have a chance of being the doctor, it comes with the territory. I don't feel, personally, that FC's claim increases that chance at all.

[Mokina]

Anyone can have a chance of being the doctor, it comes with the territory. I don't feel, personally, that FC's claim increases that chance at all.

Of course it does.

There's probably 3 scum, 9 town like in most games. So there's a 9/12 chance FC is town. If he's town then he would have no reason to lie about it, so 9/12 chance of being doctor as opposed to 1/12 from before(ok 9/12 isn't exact due to how you view his behavior, but it definitely increases the chance).

No, it makes it 1/4 he's doc and 3/4 he's scum. Pure probability is a bad indicator for mafia, but if you want the raw stats, he's three times as likely to be scum at this point.

[Mokina]

Please don't use math when you have no clue what the hell you're talking about.

You're right, too many assumptions - one doctor in the game, no protown fakeclaims, three scum. All I'm saying is that any one of the scum could pull this off if they were under pressure. Hero's number analysis made no sense at all and I ignored it... but usually, math doesn't have much of a place here.

So let's stick to scumhunting, shall we? Dank, do you really

want

a counterclaim? That seems awfully contrary to the interests of the town.

[Mokina]

Then, your attack on Mokina looks like a poor move to me. For one - it's ill-considered. Mokina has claimed mason with Hero, so if you're attacking her, you have to realise that the attack should be related back to Hero. Otherwise you're just chucking out an FoS with no intent behind it, which may earn you points but isn't useful. Secondly, her position is obvtown. People who are prepared to lynch someone who looks dead scummy after a l-1 claim are showing that they have a serious intent to scumhunt. She's using her mason position, if she is town, well, because she's taking a strong stance with it from an easily confirmable place. You are the one asking for the real doc to out himself in order to lynch FC, scummiest of the scum - that's far more dicey to my mind.

This gets at the heart of what I'm talking about. You're hiding behind the self-righteous argument about possibly protecting claimed doctors which doesn't even address the question about why not move your hunting onto the guy you thought was roughly equally scummy. Unvoting isn't the scummy part - unvoting without following up your other suspicions is suspect to me.

Thank you. My sentiments exactly in both posts.

Are you saying I haven't done scumhuting against FC? If so, you've got alot of rereading to do. Like I said, his meta held me back, but in this particular game, his lynch would have been very helpful to town for the reasons I outlined.

You don't find them suspicious for doing the same thing? Lowell had been pushing for a nad case more than I had lately. kik also was ok with his lynch, as I believe qwints was. You don't find them suspicious for voting nad right away too?

You built a list of reasons why his lynch would be helpful, sure - but it has become abundantly clear you do not wish to follow through on them. Several other people wanted to be cautious and wait on the wagon, and I don't blame them for doing so. But comparing them to your active defense of Far_Cry and push for a highly antitown counterclaim is ridiculous. I read distancing, unwillingness to throw him under a bus, and an attempt to get a real doc to claim. You look like a partner cutting losses.

If you are town and believe FC's actions to be scummy, vote. It will confuse me less.

[Mokina]

Hey claimed doc, does your role PM say if you can protect yourself? Shhh ... no hints.

Well?

[Mokina]

More to the point, he sidestepped my question. Don't worry about it.

[Mokina]

Maybe that is what I look like, but i'm not going to vote for a claimed doctor. I just don't understand why everyone abandons the chance that he IS our doctor. If the doctor is as valuable as you all say, where you under no circumstance want the real one to counter, what if you happen to lynch our doctor? Does not that bother you the slightest bit?

Like I said, I have no problem voting for FC prior to the claim. But lynching a power role is about the stupidest thing town can do, and I honestly have to believe FC's claim unless there's a counter. I can't stop you guys from doing it, but i'd much rather we lynch someone else today.

What makes you believe it

wasn't

a claim of convenience? If you have anything to suggest he

behaved

like a doctor, let me know - but the claim on its own means very little. If anything, it's one more reason to think he's newscum.

Also, don't get me wrong on the previous post. The decision to no longer follow your professed list of reasons to lynch FC strikes me as somewhat odd, but not necessarily a scumtell. I can understand the discomfort in voting for a claimed doc, even one who looks incredibly scummy. I'm simply saying if my suspicions (and yours, for that matter) of FC are correct, it's a textbook example of the effect that inexperienced scum hope to evoke.

Mixed messages from dank right now. He might be a partner ... or maybe just a protown with a dearth of spine. IGMEOY, and a cardflip of FC would be enlightening.

[Mokina]

Lynching and uncounterclaimed doc is about as dumb as, well, lynching masons solely to confirm them. Given that choice I would much rather lynch Mokina than FC. Given that I think either move is only made by ignorant players or scum, I will opt to lynch Nadroj. Unless there's a counterclaim.

This is your most recent post, when you were opposed to having masons die in order to confirm them

and

opposed to lynching FC. You wanted a counterclaim, but it didn't happen. Now, after two pages of lurking, you're suddenly okay with both.

FoS: kikuchiyo

Kiku's driving the bus, perchance?

[Mokina]

First. What do you mean by "both"?

I mean exactly what it looks like. You now support the killing of masons to confirm their claims and the lynch of FC. Two pages ago, you were calling both bad ideas. I just think it's weird how fast you changed your opinion.

Second. You should know better. I opposed the lynch and asked for confirmation(counterclaim) that our claimed doc was actually scum. You, on the other hand seem determined to lynch him and are disbelieving of the claim. The only players who should be confident in lynching scumFC are the real doc and the scum team. I am the player whose been pushing the FC wagon since its inception. That's quite the epic day1 bus.

While it's polemic to lynch a claimed doc, I did it anyway. That's not a scumtell - it's because myself and Hero have already claimed. You will find that out how ridiculous this theory is when one of us (probably me) gets NK'd. Hell, you might be the one doing the shooting. For now, I am willing to take chances for the reasons SerialClergyman so eloquently pointed out.

Third. You are calling for FC's lynch.

Why are you now suspicious of those who are bending to your will?

You know he's scum because he is your partner. You and Hero are the scummiest masons I could imagine. I have used logical reasoning for all of my day1 moves. If you are going to be suspicious, bring a little more to the table than "gut" feelings.

As town, you should

always

be suspicious of those who bend to your will. Just because you agree with me doesn't mean you're not scum - in fact, I am wary of those who are too willing to bend. When someone does it too much, it becomes obvious they're following town trends. And as a side note, it's

very

logical for antitowns to switch up their opinions on a wagon to follow general opinion after lurking for a couple pages. This is what I observe in you, and by extension, the reason for the FoS.

That said, I have had no indication that you're scum so far other than this, and I certainly have no intention of changing my vote. I could be wrong with this theory, and I acknowledge that.

[Mokina]

@Mokina: Same question. Does your role PM say that you know Hero764 is pro-town?

Absolutely.

[Mokina]

I don't like replacements. They always give people a weird kind of clean slate.

Gwynplaine ... please consider all options here. I know you just replaced in, but a case and a vote would not go amiss. Agree with SC about the stalling - avoiding hammer votes on principle makes you that much more useless if you're a townie. That said, if there's some reason you don't believe there's a worthy case against FC at this point and wish to hold back, feel free to elaborate. You mentioned the possibility of him being "just a nut" in your previous post?

[Mokina]

Second, the alternative to replacements is that players just flake and then games die. If that's what you'd prefer, then by all means, keep heaping abuse on people who are doing you a favor. If you insult them enough, eventually nobody will want to replace into your games.

I'm sorry. For many of my early games, I rather enjoyed replacing ... but if someone under serious suspicion is replaced (for whatever reason), people are reluctant to push the wagon. I fully expect FC to have a replacement halo, if his V/LA does come to that. Hence the "clean slate" comment.

That said, I'm still glad to see someone with opinions and a drive to scumhunt replacing a lurker. Thanks.

[Mokina]

And just in case this wasn't clear either: I agree that Far_Cry's posts are pretty damn scummy-looking, and the doctor claim is dubious. I also think he played like a jackass. Can I accept, as Hero764 would have us believe, that the apparent scumminess is a mere side-effect of the jackassery? I have seen that happen plenty of times.

I've also seen scummy players who aren't very good at it get replaced by people who are better. Just - keep it in mind; his role hasn't changed.

[Mokina]

No he feels he knows my opinion of lynching FC/Admiral.

To elaborate, I think there's a decent chance FC was telling the truth. However, I agree that doc is the most common (easiest) scumclaim, and I'm not of the opinion that doc is such an important role anyway, so I'd certainly prefer a FC/Admiral lynch to no lynch.

I'd disagree here. Doc's a really important role to the town. The reason why doc is a

good

scumclaim isn't just the relatively low chance of a counterclaim (and the virtually nil chance that any CCer will be defended). Scum like doc claims because every protown power role wants to believe there's doc around to save them, and unless "BS" is the general consensus, such reverence for the role is reflected in the vote counts.

Lowell ... do you think anyone else is a better candidate than FC? Obviously you can disavow support of a nolynch - it's a cop-out and won't get us anywhere - but without concrete suspicions of anyone else, I'm a little wary of this post. Eager to join the biggest wagon w/no explanation?

[Mokina]

I really don't like Lowell's last two posts.

He "thinks there's a decent chance FC's telling the truth" but he's portraying the lynch as inevitable. Anyone for an alternative wagon? That feels incredibly scummy to me.

unvote, vote: Lowell

I'm beginning to sour on the FC wagon. It's not because I believe him particularly - but if he's a genuine doc, I am pretty certain he will be shot tonight. The scum have no interest in leaving him alive ... and forcing them to choose between doc and masons rather benefits the town.

To be fair, it's Lowells playstyle to lurk. That said, I'd be willing to follow through with the suspicions I mentioned in #558. No protown vibe at all from Lowell, and his most recent post feels opportunistic as hell.

Vote: Lowell

[Mokina]

Lowell can't confirm his claim, and it seems like a pretty convenient choice. If my last vote wasn't counted -

Unvote, Vote: Lowell

[Mokina]

IGMEO ThAdmiral tonight, really I do...

[Mokina]

Had they claimed "Lover" we could have lynched one of them to see.

Bah, Kiku. A big bah to you.