Mini 811: Foggy Londontown Mafia - Over!

[kikuchiyo]

/confirm

[kikuchiyo]

Where is this "third vote"? Leading wagons both have two, or am I mistaken?

Vote: Hero

Won't get fooled again.

Again? When was the first time? If I recall, you lynched me in lylo as scum.

One lie plus a blatant fluff post does not bode well for you, my friend.

[kikuchiyo]

ebwop:

vote: Hero

[/b]

[kikuchiyo]

Again? When was the first time?

Days 1 and 2 when we lynched townies.

Touche. I retract my statement.

[kikuchiyo]

unvote, Vote: Lowell

So a lurker hunt, is it?

[kikuchiyo]

unvote

Lowell is lurking and is suspicious, but I'll hold back on my vote for now.

How is Lowell suspicious?

[kikuchiyo]

How is Lowell suspicious?

Lurkalicious, but he's already explained why.

The question was not directed at you. FC stated that Lowell was lurking

and

suspicious. He has not "already explained why". Your uncalled for defense of FC is noted.

[kikuchiyo]

Your uncalled for defense of FC is noted.

I was under the impression that FC found Lowell's lurking suspicious.
Lowell explained the reason for his lurking.
I concluded that the cause of FC's suspicions had been addressed.

Anyone trying to follow a town current by attacking a semantic point like this one is notable, as far as I'm concerned.
If you're scum, that's a really convenient way to set yourself up for a vote.

You do realize that FC was the one "following a town current", don't you? I voted Lowell for lurking. FC said they were suspicious. its not a semantices argument at all.

FC said Lowell was lurking AND suspicious. If they meant that Lowell was suspicious BECAUSE they were lurking, then there is no need to word the accusation in such a manner. To me it reads the same as how you are saying you are reading me: FC set up a convenient way to vote for what may have become a town current. My vote came first(for lurking), then came FC's unvote and accusation of lurking AND suspicion. Get it?

Why are you so interested in defending them?

[kikuchiyo]

quote="Hero"]As far as FC's comment goes.

I read it as him saying that because Lowell is lurking he is suspicious, since nothing else would really make sense considering he's done nothing except the 'Chill out poeple' post.

[/quote]

Precisely my point. FC clearly stated "lurking" and "suspicious". There was no implication of cause and effect which you seem to interpret. I want to know why FC differentiated between "lurking" and "suspicion". As it is, two people have now given him the easy answer thus negating the effect of my line of questioning.

Note to all: Stop answering questions not directed at you.

unvote, vote: Far_Cry

There reaction was a bit overdefensive and it also COMPLETELY avoided the main question. I am not letting you off so easy. It is up to players to be clear and concise, not depend on others charitable interpretations in order to stay out of the spotlight.

Tenchi: In order to get to five or six pages we need to keep questioning. What was your interpretation of FC's statement, and do you feel my vote on them is warranted?

[kikuchiyo]

Precisely my point. FC clearly stated "lurking" and "suspicious". There was no implication of cause and effect which you seem to interpret. I want to know why FC differentiated between "lurking" and "suspicion". As it is, two people have now given him the easy answer thus negating the effect of my line of questioning.

Its just how you want to interpret his words. When he said, "and is suspicious" I read that as "and therefor is suspicious". Why would he say Lowell was suspicious for a different reason when there was no possible way for there to be a different reason? It doesn't make any sense for him to say what you think he meant, scum or not. You're making a case out of nothing here tbh.

I disagree. Scum has every reason to toss out the word "suspicious" without proper evidence. In fact, its probably something scum do quite often. I didn't claim to "think" he meant anything. I asked for clarification, and instead of getting it, two other players stepped in and chose to clarify for him. I am not "making" a case out of nothing. I am voting for who I find most suspicious at the moment. FC's lackluster contribution, avoidance of an issue, and vague statements warrant my vote. If you disagree then that's fine, but it is not in anyones best interest for you to continue defending him. Stop speaking on behalf of FC.

There is no error in my case. FC was never allowed to clarify the statement. When they subsequently posted they candidly avoided the issue. How is that supposed to remove my suspicion of the original statement and the player who made it? As I have already pointed out, charitable interpretations of players statements are not the best grounds for dismissal of suspicion.

[kikuchiyo]

There is no error in my case. FC was never allowed to clarify the statement. When they subsequently posted they candidly avoided the issue. How is that supposed to remove my suspicion of the original statement and the player who made it? As I have already pointed out, charitable interpretations of players statements are not the best grounds for dismissal of suspicion.

This is where the problem lies, what did you expect him to say? There's no way you would get any info out of him with that question. The only logical think he could possibly respond with was that he meant Lowell was suspicious based on his lurking or w/e because Lowell had done nothing else at that point. What good is him stating the obvious going to do us?

He could have said quite a few things. A telling answer would have been, "well, my gut says he's scummy," or "his random vote is suspicious." His statement was vague. It needed clarification.

Let's try this then:

unvote, vote: Hero

He is extensively defending another player, and is suspicious.

Perfectly clear or not?

[kikuchiyo]

Uhm no, not perfectly clear. I've got quite a few more posts in the thread than Lowell had, there's no clear cut reason for my suspicion, because I haven't only done one thing in this thread. See the difference?

The statement is worded the same. Lowell had a random vote on FC with no joke or random reason. Just a vote. Also, you neglect the fact that some players play in other games with the same players. i.e. FC could have said "meta" makes him suspicous. Fact is: you do not know what FC would have said. Your interpretation of his statement is giving him the benefit of the doubt. Why? You actively diffused an investigation? Regardless of how you felt or interpreted the situation you had no business stepping in, especially after my discussion with Mokina. Yet you continue.

My point with my statement and vote: My statement is not clear, and it would not be clear even if you had done only one other thing in this thread. What is "suspicious" about defending another player?

unvote

Hero, scum needs to "cast suspicion" on players to utilize bandwagons effectively and mislynch townies. Therefore, unfounded use of the word "suspicious" should be scrutinized.

FC: What exactly is "suspicious" about lurking on pages 2-3 after one has laid down a random vote?

[kikuchiyo]

^^ Good point. In fact, Mokina said Hero was doing good scumhunting this game. Has anyone seen it?

FC: lying about your amount of experience is scummy, especially when you use your dishonesty to cast suspicion on someone else.

Vote: Far_Cry

Please explain what you hope to accomplish for town by deceit in the rvs.

[kikuchiyo]

The semantics of FC's post did not make him seem remotely scummy, so at the time I didn't even consider kikuchiyo's question an attack. I thought she'd just misread his post, and I completely agree with Hero - pointing out an error in someone else's case isn't scummy at all.

Kiku was fabricating a case because FC didn't say exactly what she would in his situation.

Now I am confused. Earlier you agreed with my "case".

I went back to look at Far_Cry's post ... seems as if we each read it differently the first time. I thought it was referring to Lowell's absence, whereas you thought there was a second reason. Misunderstanding, sorry to pin a semantic attack on you.

FC hasn't actually resolved whether or not there's an additional reason besides Lowell's absence, but he should. The point about the scumvenience of said vote was good call; duly noted.

I am not sure why you would backtrack like this. You admitted it wasn't a semantics argument, but now you are dismissing my original point. Now, FC has been caught in a lie about his amount of experience. Voting someone who is lying is "anti-town"?

I'm not going to be hostile to anyone. That's not a good playstyle, IMHO. But here's one for you. Did you suspect Lowell for anything other than lurking? We still want to know.

Now we're back to agreeing with kik?

In fact, Mokina said Hero was doing good scumhunting this game. Has anyone seen it?

Please read my posts - the only time I've ever complimented someone on scumhunting, it was directed at you and qwints via post quoting. I made no mention of Hero - he hasn't been scumhunting at all, to my knowledge. Do you have some kind of Strawman Mokina win condition or something?

Sorry, you are correct. On reread I notice you are talking about me and qwints.

I'm really getting sick of this. You're making up reasons to vote for other people, with no basis at all, post-RVS, then not listening to the input of the rest of us. I cite the way you dealt with Hero, who also tried to explain that it might be a semantic attack ... you steamrolled right over him. It's antitown and

FoS: kiku

-worthy at the very least.

Yet you agree with my suspicion of FC? Puzzling.

I am not sure why you seem to be so emotional over today's events, but this post seems erratic.

[kikuchiyo]

My goodness.

First off, aside from my rvs vote, i voted Lowell for lurking.

Far_Cry cast an ambiguous statement of suspicion in Lowells direction.

When questioned, FC dodged the question entirely. I voted FC.

I then unvoted and voted Hero to make a point. When I felt that the point had been made(though not as I had intended it) I moved my vote back to FC because my original suspicions of him had not been addressed properly

and

because they seemed to be deceitful about their amount of experience. Did they lie? Its hard to say. That's why I'm going to

unvote, Vote: Hero

Hero764 has gone to great lengths to defend others. Is it scummy to defend other players? Of course not. Funny thing is, Hero has been defending players based on "charitable" interpretations of their posting.

Far_Cry: vote Lowell for picking on a first time player on this site.[/b]

Interpretation one: FC is a first time player. He is being picked on on this site.

Interpretation two: This is FC's first time playing on this particular site, but has other experience.

This is a semantics argument. much like:

Far_Cry: Lowell is lurking, and is suspicious.

Interpretation one: Lowell is lurking. He is also suspicious.

Interpretation two: Lowell is suspicious because he is lurking.

What benefit is Hero getting out of defending other players in "semantics" arguments? If said players flip town, Hero can say, "I told you so." It is day 1. Odds are in favor of a mislynch as all townies know. Day 1 is certainly not the time to be "forgiving" and "charitable" when it comes to what players are posting.

Hero is well aware of FC's alignment. The only way this could be possible is:

A) They are masons.
B) They are both scum.
C) Hero is scum.

So which is it? I am fine with a day 1 mason claim. There is no way for us to know FC's intent about his initial post regarding his experience. Yet Hero claims to understand it entirely and think others are stupid for not being able to interpret the statement one way, even though the statement can

very easily

be interpreted differently.

If you think I move my vote around too much, I don't really care. What I post is my body of work. It will remain long after I am gone.

[kikuchiyo]

Hero: What blatant lie? Interpreted one way, FC very easily could have been lying. Interpreted another, not so. Please adress why you are giving FC the "benefit of the doubt" in two seperate statements.

qwints: Rolefishing? If you are referring to the "mason" comment I would just like to say that day 1 Mason claims are pro-town. If Hero is a mason with FC then we are wasting valuable resources in pickling either of them apart. If you are worried about narrowing down the nk pool for scum I would like to point out that day 1 claimed masons are generally the first scum targets for nk. If your comment is in regards to something else, please clarify.

[kikuchiyo]

What blatant lie? Interpreted one way, FC very easily could have been lying. Interpreted another, not so. Please adress why you are giving FC the "benefit of the doubt" in two seperate statements.

Benefit of the doubt, seriously? He said it was his first time on the site, and then that he had 10 games. The only way to interpret that as a contradiction is to add/take away words to his statements. You lied.

You are not addressing the timeline. He did not explicitly say that it was his first time on the site. Did you read my theorem post? You are interpreting his statements in one way and only one way. How do you

know

he didn't lie or attepmt to lie? Even if he is telling the truth, his first statement can easily be read as someone trying to play a newb card.

Read this statement: I like apples and oranges.

What does it mean? It could mean that I like

both

apples and oranges. It may also mean that I only like them when they are served together. It may also mean that I like apples, and the various shades of the color orange. Get it? You are interpreting statements in one way and one way only. Just because it makes sense to you does not mean the statement is clear and thusly you should nopt be taking up others arguments on their behalf.

[kikuchiyo]

qwints- I am not arguing theory. If Hero has knowledge of FC's alignment then he should be coming forward. Masons confirm each other. That's their power. Using it early can be just as useful as using it late, and in fact, moreso.

[kikuchiyo]

My side. I think it's time to lynch Hero. He is arguing semantics which, in and of itself, isn't a horrible thing, but he is using his arguments to defend someone by interpreting their statements in an extremely "charitable" fashion. FC has done very little, if anything at all, to convince us he is pro-town, yet Hero seems to be extremely benevolent in his interpretations of everything FC says. There is no motivation for such behavior that isn't scummy.

Well, one. If you are masons, please claim. If not, its time to swing. Or at least get Hero to L-1 or L-2 and have him claim. His behavior is ridiculous.

[kikuchiyo]

Masons confirm each other.

And then they get NK'd. qwints is right, you shouldn't be rolefishing right now.

Asking the scummiest player in the room to roleclaim is not "rolefishing". Nor is requesting town masons to claim if they are wasting town's resources. Interesting take, though.

[kikuchiyo]

I agree with qwints in that kiku is pushing for a claim based on very little. It's not likely that they're masons, or even that masons exist in this setup.

Which is exactly why Hero should be lynched, or at the very least, run up to L-2 and asked to claim. Also, do you have evidence to back up this claim that masons are not likely to exist in this set-up? I would say about half of the games I have read have included masons.

It's WAY to early to be talking about a quick lynch. You seem awfully eager to force a claim early.

Noone mentioned a "quicklynch" but you. Please choose your words more carefully. Trying to paint what I say in a poor light can be seen as scummy. Further, Just because it is page six does not mean it is "too early" for a serious bandwagon, a role claim, or a lynch. When the evidence is there, then action should be taken. I have pointed out two distinct times when Hero has "charitably" interpreted ambiguous statements in defense of another player.

Can anyone point to anything FC has done which would lead one to believe that he is pro-town? i.e. is he worthy of such defense?

[kikuchiyo]

Hero: You have a case on me? I didn't notice. I am at odds with you because you are choosing to interpret in a lenient fashion. This is not a noob forum. I am not grandstanding on a "FC Lied!" platform. I am pointing out the ambiguity of his statements and your "friendly" interpretation. Why are you so adamant about defending FC? Do you think he is incapable of defending himself? My issue with him is not "horrible logic". I have shown that to be the case with my "theorem" post. There are different ways to interpret his statements.

qwints:

This seem like a call to quick lynch to me.

If thats how you choose to interpret it that's fine, but you are ignoring the key word "or". I am perfectly happy lynching Hero for his behavior and if the votes piled on I would be fine with that. "Quicklynching" isn't something I can do alone and its not what I have suggested. There are an almost infinite number of reasons the wagon could derail. Calling a "quicklynch" preemptively is poor scumhunting.

[kikuchiyo]

Yep, just keep ignoring everything I say. I never interpretted anything, his posts didn't contradict he each other. He wasn't 'lying'. Accept it already.

I never said nor implied that the statements "contradicted" each other. I am arguing that his first post, regardless of the information contained in the second post,

may have been an attempt at a lie

. You simply discount the possibility. Why? Why do you

trust

Far_Cry?

He could just claim mason and lie anyway.

The only person he could lie about being masons with would be his hypothetical scum partner. Another reason why a day 1 mason claim is a benefit to town. i.e. If he is found out to be lying, he has to also implicate a scum buddy.

Mokina:

Hero's trying to defend himself at this point. He has been trying to justify the initial attack on you, which was a perfectly valid argument. I see nothing wrong with objecting to a vote based on semantics. I can only conclude that you have been fabricating a case against Hero because he attacked you.

You have done a complete 180 here. He is attacking me and calling my argument "false logic"(my words not his), yet you agreed earlier with my case on FC. What gives?

I went back to look at Far_Cry's post ... seems as if we each read it differently the first time. I thought it was referring to Lowell's absence, whereas you thought there was a second reason. Misunderstanding, sorry to pin a semantic attack on you.

FC hasn't actually resolved whether or not there's an additional reason besides Lowell's absence, but he should. The point about the scumvenience of said vote was good call; duly noted.

How can my logic be flawed if you completely agree with my original point?

How is my case fabricated? I have pointed out TWO DISTINCT INSTANCES OF HERO INTERPRETING POSTS IN A CHARITABLE FASHION. Nothing more. I have made no other accusations.

Experienced protowns don't make counter-cases.

They know that legitimate players can make errors in judgement, nay, need to if they want to win.

If you were part of the town, I suspect you'd behave similarly.

Scum, on the other hand, always know what they're doing - they're killing off protown threats in a convenient manner, and they start with the ones who notice their weak arguments right off the bat

.

So why do you interpret my asking for Hero to be lynched as "scummy"? Couldn't it just be a "legitimate player" making an "error in judgement"?

How do you know that Hero is a "pro-town threat"?

It's in the interests of the mafia to have someone rolefish for masons, and you're either being a complete antitown tool or you're obvscum.

I disagree entirely with this point. Masons are of particular trouble for scum. Masons are the only players who can generally "confirm" each other without a mislynch, nk, or night action. The whole "you can talk to each other at night" pales in comparison to their ability to "clear" townies without sacrificing numbers. Masons claiming early is almost never a bad move and I have already detailed my reasons for asking Hero.

If you aren't part of the masonry and you're actually protown, you don't ask for that information.

Why not? Hypothetically, If I were masons with Tenchi, and Hero claimed to be masons with FC, then I would bank on the fact that Hero was lying and would push for his lynch. If he was lying then we'd have his scum partner as well. What's the problem with that?

Funny how you insult my intelligence while posting ignorant drivel.

Tenchi: You have been camping your vote on me since RVS. Care to elaborate?

[kikuchiyo]

Ebwop: I read this wrong:

If you aren't part of the masonry and you're actually protown, you don't ask for that information.

I thought it said "are part of the masonry". Not "aren't". However, the point still stands. I have no problem at all with a day 1 mason claim when one or both parties are under serious pressure or in danger of being lynched. Would I ask them to claim out of the blue? No.

Also this:

How do you know that Hero is a "pro-town threat"?

is in response to you implying that I am "scum... killing off pro-town threats." Just to be clear.

[kikuchiyo]

It. doesn't. matter. if. he. attempted. to. lie. or. not.

So its okay if someone lies?

The point of the matter is that you posted saying he lied about his experience. Since you keep bringing up how it "may" have been, why were you before so sure that he lied about it?

I wasn't sure. My initial interpretation of his post read as him lieing. Him lieing is a possibility. Always has been. You still seem to be avoiding the question of

WHY DO YOU TRUST WHAT HE IS SAYING

WHEN ONE OF HIS FIRST POSTS COULD EASILY BE CONSTRUED AS AN ATTEMPT TO MISREPRESENT HIMSELF TO THE COMMUNITY?

And more importantly, why did you say his posts contradicted each other when they clearly didn't.

I NEVER DID.

Have you no comments on anything else? What do you think of Mokina's recent flip flop?

[kikuchiyo]

Hero should be lynched. He has again ignored arguments. I detailed Mokina's flip with quotes and this was his response:

Mokina's flip flop? I can't see where she ever agreed with your case in the first place so....either quote it for me or quit making up stuff.

Hero read post 159. You are not this stupid.

He accuses me of claiming some sort of "contradiction" accusation when I never used the word. For some reason he seems to think I am pushing the fact that FC lied, when the fact is I am pushing the question of "if it is agreed that FC may have attempted to lie, why is Hero giving him the benefit of the doubt?" Hero has STILL NOT ADDRESSED THIS ISSUE.

I initially accused FC of lieing. The fact that he says "I didn't", doesn't change the fact that his original statement was ambiguous, nor does it squash the possibility that his initial statement was an attempt at misrepping himself.

One more time:

Hero, why do you simply choose to believe and trust FC? Why would you not let him defend himself?

Here's Mokina's agreement with me on my original point. AGAIN.

I went back to look at Far_Cry's post ... seems as if we each read it differently the first time. I thought it was referring to Lowell's absence, whereas you thought there was a second reason. Misunderstanding, sorry to pin a semantic attack on you.

FC hasn't actually resolved whether or not there's an additional reason besides Lowell's absence, but he should. The point about the scumvenience of said vote was good call; duly noted.

Can you see it?

[kikuchiyo]

Lying and contradiction go hand in hand, you think he lied in his first post, because his second post contradicts that. They don't. I don't care what you are pushing now, before you were clearly trying to push that FC was lying, which was 100% false. Why is it so hard for you to accept this?

Whether FC was lieing or not is not 100% anything. That's my point here. He made an ambiguous statement that could easily be interpreted as deceitful.

Hero, why do you simply choose to believe and trust FC? Why would you not let him defend himself?

OH MY GOD.

This has nothing to do with FC. I never said anything about believing and trusting him, quit putting words into my mouth.

If you don't believe him then why are you insisting that he is 100% clear?

And what do you have to say about Lowell's comment? That has to be one of the scummiest posts all game, and you just ignore it?

Not ignoring it. I actually agree with you here. Lowell just put you at L-2 I believe. He can explain this action for himself.

unvote

Hero: if you are a mason please claim so. I am not "clearing" you of suspicion here, but I am not sure what we are arguing about any more. it seems that we are both pushing separate issues that don't necessarily conflict with each other.

Mokina and Lowell are both parasites to this argument at the moment and I would like to here more from them.

[kikuchiyo]

No misrep here. Asking for a mason claim in a situation where one player is inexplicably defending another and one of those players has a viable wagon is simply not scummy. The claim would clear them both which only benefits town.

You need to catch up, iam. Please show where I said FC's statements were a "contradiction". My concern with FC was first on his ambiguous statement regarding Lowell, and secondly on the ambiguity of his statement regarding his leve of experience. I don't know whether or not his statements contradicted each other because I don't know what he was trying to accomplish with his first statement. My issue with Hero is the fact that he seems to be willing to give FC the benefit of the doubt in that particular situation. Given that FC has shown a propensity for making ambiguous statements (yes, two is a propensity imo), I don't see any pro town reason for Hero to give FC the benefit of the doubt(aside from being masons). Hero is assigning FC 0% liability in this argument. That could be interpreted as clearing FC 100% of liability in this argument, hence my statement.

You seem pretty anxious to have the town believe Hero truly trusted Far Cry. Why would that make sense for scum? Do you think FC's a scumpartner? I am voting for you precisely because you have made no other accusations. You're voting on a weak case with no plausible antitown evidence, and your latest quicklynch adventure makes me think you know that he's the one you want to lynch anyway.

What "quicklynch adventure"? If Hero is scum and knows FC is town then he has motivation to defend him. i.e. if the FC wagon gained steam and was then lynched and flipped town, scumHero would be looked at as protown. I can't speculate on whether or not they are scum partners because Hero's defense could be seen both ways. To wit, I have pointed out again and again that I find Hero's behavior in giving FC the benefit of the doubt to be "anti-town". Plausible evidence imo.

There are two possible scenarios. If you started the game with information that Hero is antitown, let us know. Otherwise, I will continue to assume that you are the scum, starting the game knowing damn well that he's town.

You don't think Hero and I could be scum together? I believe you may be pushing a false dichotomy here. The only way you can assume that I am scum because I know he is town, is if you know he is town which means that you are scum. Brilliant. Do you know that Hero is town?

When he did not clarify, you continued to attack him for it using a purely semantic argument ... assuming that you were right and I was wrong. You were determined to find something wrong with him in particular. That would almost make me suspect some kind of investigative power role, except that we haven't had a night phase yet.

Mine is not a "semantic" argument. Also, I did not continue my attack on FC. I shifted to Hero.

To put it simply, I suspect you know his identity and are part of an informed minority.

Where exactly have I shown that I have knowledge of anyones identity? Please provide evidence when you make an accusation.

I do not place any trust in FC's statements, but the point you chose to pursue was weak, flimsy, and trivial. You voted for him based on it, then unvoted when there was a clear town current against it. At the moment, you look like the most opportunistic player here and my vote stands.

Please show evidence of this "town current". As far as I can tell, I am the one making the biggest waves.

In the above posts, as soon as you suspect Hero is a mason or other linked role,

you ask him to claim or die.

If this isn't out of the blue, I don't know what is.

Bolded is the extremely scummy misrep. I asked him to claim. There is no other "linked" role to my knowledge besides masons. If Hero is masons with FC then claiming is the pro town thing to do. It halts the attack and "clears" two townies.

People are already starting to bandwagon (see Lowell, who didn't really explain his vote) thanks to your post. In the scenario you're hoping for, if this wagon hits L-1 and he and another mason claim, the scum will be very happy to have two confirmed roles.

A) I have unvoted.

B) Why would scum be "happy" to have two confirmed roles? Two "confirmed townies" on day 1 effectively reduces our lynch pool, and increases our chances of hitting scum WITHOUT SACRIFICING ANYONE.

You are either stupid or scum. < Not a false dichotomy. You have shown a serious lack of understanding for how the game of mafia works.

He could very well have been attempting a lie in his first post, but none of that matters.

No, at this point it doesn't matter because I haven't been arguing for FC scum for quite some time.

[kikuchiyo]

Pro-town reason to give FC the benefit of the doubt: POSSIBILITY 2 MAKES NO SENSE.

No. But someone coming clean when they think they may have been caught in a lie does. You are giving FC the benefit of the doubt as well here. I am not going to argue with you on this point.

No:

If you are masons, please claim. If not, its time to swing.

Please explain how "claim or die" is in any way an inaccurate paraphrase of this quote.

You left out the "masons" part.

B) Why would scum be "happy" to have two confirmed roles? Two "confirmed townies" on day 1 effectively reduces our lynch pool, and increases our chances of hitting scum WITHOUT SACRIFICING ANYONE.

This applies to any claim. So why don't we just massclaim right now?

YOU ARE A FOOL! How does it apply to any claim? Masons "confirm" each other. That's the whole point. I could claim doc right now, but it wouldn't mean a damn thing because there is no way of proving it. Please stop being stupid.

POP QUIZ!

Which is better:

i) having two confirmed town players while there are twelve players alive, two or three of whom are scum

OR:

having two confirmed town players while there are three players alive, one of whom is scum.

First option, especially when one of the two players who could be confirmed is heading for a lynch. Second option is wishful thinking. If they could fly under the radar that long it would be nice, but claiming early protects other town pr's from night kills, netting us more info.

Looks like Iam got to it first. Uh... yeah, confirmed masons aren't worth dirt on D1. Their value increases the closer we get to endgame. Scum naturally will kill them as soon as they claim to prevent this value from manifesting. They only improve lynch chances for one day. Remember fractions? 2/3 is a much bigger confirmed town fraction than 2/7. Q.E.D, a claim on D1 doesn't benefit the town an ounce.

I'm not going to jump into a meta argument here and start linking you to games where day 1 mason claims have turned out to be a boon for town, but yeah, see above. The odds of masons making it to a lylo situation are fairly low. If you would like, link me to a game where this has occurred and I will drop the argument immediately. Confirming 2 townies would improve lynch chances for the rest of the game, not just for day, and also draw nk's away from other MORE USEFUL power roles.

...and apparently it doesn't just extend to Hero and FC, I'm a mason target too. Is Iam next? Qwints? Find out next episode! I am getting absolutely sick of this.

No, the implication here is that you are scum. Not sure why you think I am "mason rolefishing" when I have asked one player, and one player alone if they are masons with the player they have been staunchly defending.

And you've been speculating about other people having alignment knowledge? In the above post, you come to the conclusion that Hero was scummy in his defense based on the assumption that one of the following is going on:



Hero is scum, FC is a townie. Hero buddies up in hopes of favors.

Hero is scum, FC is scum. Hero protects him from a vote.


Marvelous logic. If we assume that Hero is scum, we can rightly conclude that in this circumstance, Hero's actions were driven by... scumminess!

No, I simply demonstrated why Hero

may be

scum. How his actions

may have been

scummy. Don't try to paint me as working with absolutes.

Does anyone else notices how very, very circular this is? Her fabrication fails to mention the other two elements in the 2x2 grid that is Mafia:



Hero is a townie, FC is a townie. Hero prevents him from being attacked for semantics.

Hero is a townie, FC is scum. Hero prevents him from being attacked for semantics.


I rest my case.

So, according to

your

logic, Hero is town? No chance he is scum? You do realize that either FC or Hero or both could be scum in this game, right?

Kiku's not angry, btw.

[kikuchiyo]

Nobody should be trying to make them confirm before they have to.

If they are acting scummy and defending each other thereby wasting town's time and resources then I maintiain that the situation falls under the category of "have to."

Is the second option preferable? Yes, I misposted there. My point was that the second option is highly unlikely and if you link me to a game where it has ever occurred I will cease the argument immediately.

I am confused here. If I consider all four options when interrogating a player, how do I effectively glean information? At some point one must abandon the obvious mathematical statiscs and go with what they think. Hero's defense and argument seemed scummy to me, hence my vote and subsequent interrogation. If you haven't noticed, I unvoted a while back and am allowing much more discussion to take place. At this point it seems that you are doing to me exactly what you claim I did to Hero. Thoughts?

[kikuchiyo]

Sorry, Mokina, how does ant of what you have posted "logically" make me scum? If you think I "honestly believe" my accusation to be based on "something worthwhile" then it would logically follow that I am town, yet you are voting me.

Your logic is entirely hypocritical.

[kikuchiyo]

Thank you. I had to reread her posts a couple of times, but then I realized they just don't make any sense.

[kikuchiyo]

kik, why did you want to lynch/claim so soon, when we still have so much time left?

At the time I asked I was feeling confident that Hero was scum. I can't lynch someone on my own, that takes votes, and bandwagon analysis can be a large part of this game. I got to a point in my argument with Hero where I thought he was simply avoiding the issue. I never overstated my case on Hero. It was built on two separate incidents where he "charitably" interpreted the ambiguous statements of another player. In fact, both incidents occurred with the same player, so I don't see how my call for lynch or claim was "rushed". Further, this line of questioning ignores the fact that I did in fact unvote, and promote discussion of other players actions. i.e I could have kept pushing, I believe Hero was at L-1 or L-2 at some point. At this time I'm going to:

Vote: Mokina

She has seriously misrepresented my case against Hero and has posted the most genuine contradiction we have seen.

Please. I am voting for you because it doesn't make sense for town to make the kind of arguments you did. You accused Hero of ... what, exactly? Defending Far_Cry?

You attempted to mislead the town into thinking the circumstances could only mean Hero was scum was antitown

- when in fact you were pushing what was essentially a semantic case on two different people.

A) How can I be misleading town into thinking Hero is scum? If you are town then you wouldn't know whether or not Hero was scum and could therefore not make such a baseless accusation.

B) I offered up the scenario I felt most likely for townHero. i.e. I have seen Masons defend each other before.

C) Earlier you said you realized that my argument with FC was not "semantics", but now you backtrack on that in order to bolster your case on me.

Mokina: you have moved yourself into the category of obvscum. Congratulations. If you

are

town then you're really screwing us.

[kikuchiyo]

Sorry, nad, but what else can I say? I don't even feel like we need a "case" against her. Her posts are clearly backwards. The fact that she has now backtracked to the FC case and changed her opinion in regards to me makes this look even more like a chainsaw defense(of Hero). i.e. Mok's attack came in response to my case on Hero. She has flagrantly misrepresented what I said.

What about the statement bothers you?

[kikuchiyo]

Wrong. She agreed with your earlier case on FC about him calling Lowell suspicious, not about him lying about his lack of experience. You're making up stuff just to strengthen your case yet again, and I don't like it.

I am not making anything up here. I am referring to her "earlier" agreement with me. The case about FC "lieing" is debatable. i.e. You yourself have admitted that FC

may have attrempted to lie

. You just feel that it is irrelevant. I unvoted you and put the case against you on the backburner, so by your logic my earlier actions should be irrelevant, no?

Also, what case are you referring to? I have stated that we don't even need a case against Mokina. Read her posts.

Do you believe that, in general, it's a good idea to vote for someone with nothing to go on? And for the record, changes of opinion are okay and expected in mafia. I happen to think you're a bit scummy for pushing a weak case on FC, but way scummier for misrepresenting Hero and generally blowing it out of proportion.

This is a misrepresentation. Noone is voting "with nothing to go on". The case against you is extremely clear, and iam just pointed it out AGAIN. If changes of opinion are expected and okay, why are you not attacking those who attacked me for my changing opinions earlier?

Hero: Why are you ignoring the case on Mokina?

[kikuchiyo]

Ridiculous. Both you and Mokina are indescriminately giving players the "benefit of the doubt." There is no logical reason for either of you to not be offering that same reasoning to me. None of my arguments have been so terrible as to have the only option of me being scum according to the logic both of you are using, yet neither of you is willing to accept the very reasonable(even if fallible) explanations behind my arguments. You are both also supporting a wagon with an RVS vote still attached to it. Oppurtunistic behavior imo.

[kikuchiyo]

ecwop: ninja"d there. 213 is in response to 210.

[kikuchiyo]

214 is the backtrack.

[kikuchiyo]

217: You avoid the issue.

My pro-town reasoning for what exactly?

[kikuchiyo]

I was under the impression that FC found Lowell's lurking suspicious.
Lowell explained the reason for his lurking.
I concluded that the cause of FC's suspicions had been addressed.

Anyone trying to follow a town current by attacking a semantic point like this one is notable, as far as I'm concerned.
If you're scum, that's a really convenient way to set yourself up for a vote.

I went back to look at Far_Cry's post ... seems as if we each read it differently the first time. I thought it was referring to Lowell's absence, whereas you thought there was a second reason. Misunderstanding, sorry to pin a semantic attack on you.

FC hasn't actually resolved whether or not there's an additional reason besides Lowell's absence, but he should. The point about the scumvenience of said vote was good call; duly noted.

I'm talking about the driving point of the argument itself. Kiku as a player is under the impression that she can convince the town using an argument based ultimately around her personal interpretation of the post "Lowell is lurking and is suspicious."

That is never a worthwhile accusation, regardless of actual alignment. When I tried to point that out at the beginning, she had a lash-out reaction ... and more so when Hero did, with a vote. I read newbscum.

[kikuchiyo]

Townies and scum alike can make weak arguments, and I was quite willing to ignore the flaws with your case at the beginning. However, the abrupt switch and tunnel vision against

not FC but your attacker

looks to me like scum trying to lynch an obv threat by whatever means possible.

Odd. Your attack against me seemed to gain steam when I attacked you. Also odd. I have unvoted Hero and moved on. I have pointed out suspicions against more than just Hero. How do I fit the definition of "tunnel-vision" when I am not even directly attacking the person you are accusing me of tunneling on?

[quote"Mok"]Epic distancing going on between you and Hero? Maybe, and I am not entirely convinced he's protown, but I am pretty much sold on the case against you.[/quote]

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Your case against me REVOLVES around the fact that you believe I am trying to get rid of a pro-town threat(Hero). You can't now be suspicious of him as well without that suspicion weakening your case on me.

As for the RVS, that's Tenchi's fault. He might do well to consider the actual merits of a vote against you now. It would be unwise of him to wait until L-1.

So you are willing to capitalize on Tenchi's vote?

218: Kiku avoids the issue so much, it's funny. You're trying to find a reason why we shouldn't vote for you, and you come up with something totally not related to your scumminess?

Who is trying to come up with reasons not to be voted? 218 is where I point out that Hero is in fact avoiding the issue of "Tenchi's vote". I then ask a question for him to clarify which of my actions he is requesting reasons for. How is that "avoiding the issue"?

[kikuchiyo]

ebwop:

Fallible explanations cut no ice with me and I tend to ignore them. Townies and scum alike can make weak arguments, and I was quite willing to ignore the flaws with your case at the beginning. However, the abrupt switch and tunnel vision against not FC but your attacker looks to me like scum trying to lynch an obv threat by whatever means possible.

^^ What I am referring to with the statement about what your case "revolves" around. According to your above statement, the rest of my behavior is null-tell. Now you are again seemingly backtracking.

[kikuchiyo]

You had no evidence against Hero other than that he attacked you! Does it make sense for a protown player to push a case like that? Why are you trying to kill off, very specifically, those who are voting for you?

Um, no. I attacked Hero for his "charitable" interpretations of FC's ambiguous statements. Not quite sure how you missed that since I've posted it time and time again. Trying to present my argument as omgus when my reasons were repeatedly and clearly laid out is scummy. I don't believe FC voted for me. I have also not brought a case against Tenchi, so your second question is kind of stupid seeing as the only people I find suspicious who happen to be voting me are you and Hero.

Your bullet point summary is flawed and represents only your opinion. Where have I "made nice with Hero"?

The fact that you would be willing to allow Tenchi's vote to contribute to a player being at L-1 is a bit scummy. No strawman here.

It would reflect badly on his towniness if he placed it randomly and then held it there, even as the votee accumulated a wagon.

That is exactly what he is doing and yet you are willing to let it stand as opposed to question his motivations. I am willing to buy the rl excuse at this time, but that doesn't change the fact that he has still left his vote floating since the rvs.

Its funny how you keep accusing me of "avoiding" issues when you are clearly avoiding any discussion about your giant hypocritical scum slip.

What issues haven't I addressed for you? Please present them in a pbp fashion and I will respond. As of yet, your posts seem to be more hypocritical mudslinging than anything.

[kikuchiyo]

Kiku -- The reason that line bothered me is because it seems like a scum thing to say. If you are scum, and you get Mokina lynched, and she flips town, you could say "She was town, but her behavior was screwing us over." A Get Out Of Jail Free card if people call you out on leading the Mokina bandwagon.

Understandable. But if she were to flip town I could make the same argument regardless of whether or not I had made that statement. As it stands I don't see her as flipping town. She's agreed to post her case against me, yet still has not addressed the "slip".

Further:

He didn't. You didn't attack him, you attacked Hero, then switched targets when he let off and I started pointing out your weak-argument defense.

I attacked FC. The evendence exists in this thread.

And yes, you read that correctly. For once, I completely agree with you. It would indeed look scummy if he held it there even as an active player, and I certainly expect an analysis and replacement of his vote when he returns. As of now, though, it means nothing because he hasn't read our quote war.

You can't exactly attack him for having that vote, seeing as he's V/LA.

I am not attacking Tenchi. I do not expect others to "attack" him, but am pointing out that both you and Hero have ignored the issue until I raised it.

Someone else has already posted the case on you and you have not responded to it. Add to the "slip" previously referred to, the fact that you are continuously misrepresenting what I have been posting.

[kikuchiyo]

Hm.

unvote.

Very bold move if you are scum. Understand you are not wholly confirmed, but until evidence is presented otherwise I am playing with both of you as town. With that I have to assume that scum have been watching this argument with glee and perhaps egging it on. My suspect list has to narrow, and some rereading will help.

Also, i am looking at the player list and I am seeing that there are players who have all but dissappeared through this entire argument. Explanations from the lurkers should be forthcoming. Did either of our masons glean any information over the last however many pages we've been arguing?

[kikuchiyo]

Really no point in continuing this argument. It boils down to a difference in opinion it seems.

qwints: reading you in iso i see you found Lowell's most recent vote to be "crazy scummy"? Perhaps you can elaborate?

Mod: Prod lurkers, please. If Tenchi needs replacement let's make it happen.

(sorry Ten )

[kikuchiyo]

Fair enough. We may want to discuss a policy/deadline lynch. i.e. some way we can decide on the fly if we need to. I suggest(once Tenchi is replaced or committed) that we go by post count totals if there is no leading candidate for lynch when we near deadline. Imo, it wouldn't surprise me if there was at least one scum among the lurkers.

[kikuchiyo]

Your whole argument of not understanding interpretations is now void with your post about Mokina, and you now indeed admit the post was up for interpretation.

So, why did it take you 10 pages to admit that? Why did you spend 10 pages playing dumb to defend FC?

I imagine it was so we wouldn't have to claim and get killed N1, which now we will. Kiku pushed this one too far.

Correction:

I imagine it was so we wouldn't have to claim and get killed N1, which now we will. We played like shit.

If you are town then you shouldn't mind drawing the nk away from a possibly more valuable townie. Kiku successfully routed out TWO members of an informed minority in this game. Both of you are behaving like infants now. Upon reread I realized that Mokina breadcrumbed, but Hero claimed first. That reads as particularly genuine in my eyes. At first I was thinking of the breadcrumb as a null tell, but due to the timing of both it and the claim I am forced to believe it moreso than disbelieve it. If you start stumbling around and uttering bitter accusations you are going to undo what could be a very beneficial occurrence for town.

[kikuchiyo]

Upon reread, I would very much like to return to Far_Cry. Hero's defense was certainly odd, but what is more noticeable the second time around is how FC seems to ride the wave of protection and not really ever question it. Though I most certainly believe the mason claim at this point, if FC were to flip scum and both our masons survive the night I would be ultimately more suspicious of them. Either way, I am thinking Far_Cry is most likely scum due to his acceptance of another players defense so early on. Thoughts?

[kikuchiyo]

I'm not denying that Lowell isin't scum; its just that hes playing some game that makes no sense.

I really read this as a slip. Lowell is actually a good candidate for a scumbuddy, and the way this is worded is just off.

Also, Lowell's reaction to my first attack on FC was somewhat of a deflection, and now, FC is "avoiding" a Lowell vote.

I could tie a third player in here as well, but for now I will let sleeping dogs lie.

[kikuchiyo]

Where is Tenchi?

Lowell: Can't wait for your post. It's about time.

[kikuchiyo]

This bandwagon shouldn't fall apart. FC should be lynched.

Hero: Town will get nowhere if we jump on every vote. Nadroj has been contributing here and there, much more than some others. FC is flailing.

Mod: can we get a vote count?

[kikuchiyo]

I prefer top of page counts. I don't mind a mix, but I like to have one at the top of each page for sure.

Far_Cry is a better lynch. To me it is almost necessary. Nad has put forth his reasons. I would move to avoid a no-lynch situation, but I am much more in tune with sticking with FC at this point.

[kikuchiyo]

I thought Hero was scum. That's why I wanted the claim.

No. Nad is not that suspicious. Yes, I want to lynch you, Far_Cry.

[kikuchiyo]

Define "not that suspicious".

I don't feel the need to publicize suspicions I may or may not have regarding nadroj at this time. This is simply an attempt by FC to divert attention.

"not that suspicious" means I don't find him suspicious, but he is by no means clear of any suspicion. I want to lynch FC. If you are who you say you are then you really shouldn't be against it. Are you afraid what will happen if FC flips scum?

[kikuchiyo]

Keep reading, Tenchi. It gets better.

Tenchi: Masons have one power. They confirm each other. The ability to nighttalk is generally useless in that all they end up doing is drawing suspicion for working together. Once suspicion is on, they claim and it is good for town. Would it be ideal for it not to happen on day 1? Of course, but if players are under scrutiny and almoat get themselves lynched for suspicious behavior, the claim is better than a mislynch by far. By opening themselves up as unprotected "confirmed" town roles they will generally draw the first one, or possibly two, nks, thereby freeing other possible town pr's to move freely at night. If scum chooses not to nk the masons, they then have to risk failing in their night actions as well as facing a reduced lynch pool in the coming days. Would you rather a mason show up dead at the start of day 2, or a cop? how 'bout a doc? how 'bout a vig? Get it?

[kikuchiyo]

I didn't know they were masons.

A. Talking their way out of it.
B. FC actually addressing questions directed at him.
C. Presenting a more powerful countercase

A: They failed.
B: He didn't.
C: Again, they did not.

Don't blame me for their poor play. The options are not mine to "give" to them. At any point in time they could have explained themselves. I would also like to point out that they are not actually "confirmed" yet. Their claim is plausible, but not concrete until one of them flips, or scum is found elsewhere.

I disagree that "claiming masons" is a last resort. The power of masons is that they confirm each other. It should be done when appropriate. The circumstances and reactions surrounding the argument should be looked at closely, because if they are telling the truth, then scum knew the entire time that both Mokina and Hero were town. Those on the Hero wagon as well as those defending him should be scrutinized.

Can we stop telling me how to play and get back to scumhunting please? I have narrowed down the lynch pool for us and fingered my top suspect. I can't do this alone.

[kikuchiyo]

My attack was against Hero/FC. Hero's defense of FC is still shoddily explained. You are both ignoring the wifomic possibility fo a possible town doc choosing to protect one of the masons. Further, in a five man lylo with two remaining scum and two masons, a mason claim doesn't help one bit. So I reject the reasoning that Mokina has set forth as anything other than plausible speculation. Town is better for the claim, regardless of the truth behind it.

I didn't have "mason" suspicions. I had "scum" suspicions. You chose your way out of it by claiming.

[kikuchiyo]

Vote: Far_Cry

Overall I think FC is the best lynch. We have fifteen pages to look at. We don't need to lynch FC now, but people should start weighing in on FC. i.e. reasons why you are or are not willing to vote him.

Iam: Though your questions are relevant, I wonder why the vote? It seems a bit of a step backwards.

Personally, I am not reading nadroj as scummy and I question the wagon going on him. Has anyone put together a substantial case? If so, can they repost it so as to give the rest of us an oppurtunity to see things from your pov?

[kikuchiyo]

EBWOP: *facepalm* completely missed dank and kiku's posts.

kiku: Go read FC's meta(hint: he's like CJMiller except he uses worse grammar) and then tell me what you think of him. He could easily just be acting like a moron like he does in every other single game.

You don't nadroj's post content scummy? I find that hard to believe.

If it helps, I will take a closer look at nadroj and post some analysis. RL is a bit hectic, so I'll be lucky if I get to it later tonight.

Welcome, Serial!

Vote Count Nine

Far_Cry: 3 (kikuchiyo, nadroj15, qwints)
nadroj15: 3 (dank, Hero 764, Far_Cry)
qwints: 2 (iamausername, Lowell)
Lowell: 1 (Wiirdo)

Not Voting: 3 (Mokina, SerialClergyman, Tenchi)

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

Current deadline: Saturday, July 11th 8:10 AM EST

[kikuchiyo]

Reading Nad in iso and I see nothing to keep me from moving to his wagon. If need be I can post exactly what I think is vote worthy, but I will be waiting a bit. I would still prefer Far_Cry for today. His interaction with the "masons" and the rest of his behavior should not be overlooked. Nad reads as oppurtunistic scum or disinterested town. Hard to tell, but there are a couple of discrepancies in his posting.

How are our lurkers doing?

[kikuchiyo]

I agree with Serial. The only thing I will point out is that Mokina did the breadcrumbing while Hero made the claim. Day-talking scum? Not sure here, but I think FC is the best lynch by far.

The discrepancies I was referring to had to do with nadroj, however, I can honestly say I find nad no scummier than I find FC and for that reason I would prefer the FC lynch. The mason's, who earlier touted themselves as such an important part of the game have seemed to drop off in activity a bit here. I understand if there are real life issues, but it is entirely possible that they are lieing as well. FC's flip may help determine that, as will the results of the night.

Tenchi: This is not at all like you. Please contribute or replace.

[kikuchiyo]

Yeah because I didn't know if CJMiller was just an idiot in general or if he was just acting incredibly scummy. I know FC is just an idiot in general, and there's no reason to lynch him just based on his playstyle.

No. You don't know that. You are masons with Mokina, remember?

Besides FC's meta, which makes nadroj much scummier, the bolded worries me.

Why would the bolded worry you if you are not scum? Also, why would the bolded worry you one bit if you think FC is town? i.e. if he flips town, SC has said that would most likely clear you, if he flips scum then town would have lynched scum on day 1. What's the part that "worries" you? That you will be under scrutiny tomorrow if town nails scum day 1. Seems like a worthwhile trade off to me. Not wanting to lynch scum to keep yourself out of the limelight is something scum does. Please explain this.

Remember our newbie game with CJMiller? He acted just as bad, if not worse than Far_Cry, and ended up getting lynched for it. He flipped townie. It wasn't that his posts were scummy, his playstyle was just terrible. Far_Cry is in the same boat.

I remember this game. Town won. FC isn't exactly in the same boat imo. This is a different game. Its day 1. Let's lynch FC and move on. His flip will only help us.

[kikuchiyo]

Unvote

Any breadcrumbs from you?

[kikuchiyo]

I'd lynch him with a counterclaim, but otherwise I can't see it as B.S.

[kikuchiyo]

Lynching and uncounterclaimed doc is about as dumb as, well, lynching masons solely to confirm them. Given that choice I would much rather lynch Mokina than FC. Given that I think either move is only made by ignorant players or scum, I will opt to lynch Nadroj. Unless there's a counterclaim.

[kikuchiyo]

Vote: Far_Cry

I've seen enough. Sentiment for the lynch has not died down and though I agree with Dank, worst case scenario is we lynch our doc instead of letting him be nk'd tonight. At least that opens the door to confirm the masons. Also, if he flips scum

and

the masons live we may actually have our scum team. Day1 scum at L-1 shjould always try to out the doc, so its not that far-fetched to think odds have changed all that much.

Dank: Shut up and hammer.

[kikuchiyo]

Lynching and uncounterclaimed doc is about as dumb as, well, lynching masons solely to confirm them. Given that choice I would much rather lynch Mokina than FC. Given that I think either move is only made by ignorant players or scum, I will opt to lynch Nadroj. Unless there's a counterclaim.

This is your most recent post, when you were opposed to having masons die in order to confirm them

and

opposed to lynching FC. You wanted a counterclaim, but it didn't happen. Now, after two pages of lurking, you're suddenly okay with both.

FoS: kikuchiyo

Kiku's driving the bus, perchance?

First. What do you mean by "both"?

Second. You should know better. I opposed the lynch and asked for confirmation(counterclaim) that our claimed doc was actually scum. You, on the other hand seem determined to lynch him and are disbelieving of the claim. The only players who should be confident in lynching scumFC are the real doc and the scum team. I am the player whose been pushing the FC wagon since its inception. That's quite the epic day1 bus.

Third. You are calling for FC's lynch. Why are you now suspicious of those who are bending to your will? You know he's scum because he is your partner. You and Hero are the scummiest masons I could imagine. I have used logical reasoning for all of my day1 moves. If you are going to be suspicious, bring a little more to the table than "gut" feelings.

[kikuchiyo]

I mean exactly what it looks like. You now support the killing of masons to confirm their claims and the lynch of FC. Two pages ago, you were calling both bad ideas. I just think it's weird how fast you changed your opinion.

Sorry. Perhaps I should have employed [/sarcasm] tags. I think it is an equally bad idea to lynch either the claimed masons or the claimed doc, but as this is a team game I am willing to give this a shot. Also, if you think I have been lurking you should realize that I have been reading. There are certain aspects to this wagon that are difficult not to notice. i.e. There should be at most 3-4 anti-town roles in this game with an interest in nailing the doc with a mislynch. Odds are that they all would not be so brazen as to wagon him uncounterclaimed on day 1 which to me means that at least a few town are on the wagon. Not everyone is going to make their reasoning as to how they feel public knowledge, so as a team we need to at some point take the leap of faith. I find, and have found, FC to be the scummy to the degree of qualifying for lynch. I am not going to stand in sole opposition to the wagon because I have no evidence that suggests he is telling the truth.

Also, please note the contradiction of you claiming I changed my opinion fast, but that I also "lurked" for a couple of pages. Mafia is a dynamic environment and sometimes a player changes their mind because of what they read.

[kikuchiyo]

FC/kiku is a bit of a stretch, but thanks for your post. You could just as easily be his scumbuddy jumping the inevitable wagon at the last minute. If he is scum, we can afford a mislynch to prove your theory wrong if need be, so again: thanks.

kiku's very next post was two pages later after several other players chimed in. Asking for a counterclaim is not necessarily rolefishing. Doc is a common day 1 scum claim, but as it was pointed out, bad players sometimes pull good roles. What's done is done. I love the fact that you give me no credit for a day of hard pressed scumhunting.

Good luck all.

[kikuchiyo]

Seconded on the dislike of replacements, especially when they are seemingly as useless as the ones they replaced. Is FC lynched? I thought qwints was the hammer?

Nope, I gave Gwynplaine the benefit of the unvote when he replaced nadroj15. Far_Cry is at L-1. New votecount up shortly.

- Mod

[kikuchiyo]

Unvote

This should be interesting. I would like the replacements take. Also, an FC replacement may help as well. Five days to deadline. I suggest we let the replacements have the thread so as not jump up the pge numbers too quick.

Hero, you and I will need to vote Far_cry before deadline if necessary. If you still feel strongly for the Gwynplaine lynch, try to be short and to the point. I want our replacements caught up.

[kikuchiyo]

^^ Why do you think I unvoted? Please don't spam the thread with such stupid questions.

[kikuchiyo]

Then I cannot help you. Your tying of FC/Dank/Kiku really doesn't make sense and the posts of mine you quoted don't contradict each other at all. If I leave FC at L-1 that gives the new, lame, already lurking replacements grounds to swoop in with a hammer with little to no explanation. I want explanations. I want content. We are being given a second chance here, and the new info that FC may be replaced before deadline gives us a better chance at getting this lynch right. Are you 100% positive that FC is scum and not the doc?

[kikuchiyo]

Gwyn: Forgiveness please. I do appreciate the contribution. Your last post before the aside actually had me chuckling. You are correct, though, there is really no "right" action to take here. Personally, I don't want to lynch an uncounterclaimed doc, but there are these things one picks up in a read which can convince one otherwise. But enough about me, I have played townSC and he seems to be rolling according to his meta. Dank is actually coming off town for me as well.

I am entirely interested at this point in what Thadmiral will be posting.

[kikuchiyo]

Ignore the stuff I wrote about lowell, simulpost.

So, you feel Lowell's post was "substantive"?

[kikuchiyo]

I can agree that it is better than a no-lynch, but I have to say doc is one of the best power roles available to town. Granted, as scum on day 1, I would most likely try and out the doc if I were heading to the gallows. This is a tough one.

[kikuchiyo]

Vote: Lowell

Sorry, but no. Lowell is a prototypical policy lynch. He, so far, has been a fairly null tell lurker. Gut can easily lean town on a player such as he, but in reality, his play qualifies him for policy lynching. That said, without a counterclaim, a FC lynch is just a bad idea. If doc does show up, or claims later, we can lynch then. Yes there are holes in that plan as well, but its only day 1 here and a lowell flip is as good information as any, especially considering the possible negatives of a towndocFC. I would still like to hear from Thadmiral.

[kikuchiyo]

ebwop:

Vote: Lowell

[kikuchiyo]

I want to point out a few things:

Thadmiral is an unnacceptable lynch for today. I reach this decision after much deliberation. Though it is perfectly plausible for there to be a doc out there unwilling to counterclaim, it is more in our favor to let TA go to night phase. If TA is scum, then a mason will most likely get whacked. Scum would probably not risk hitting the real doc, as that would give us 100% scum day 2. If TA is doc, he is most likely going to get hit tonight. Scum would be silly to let him live and take a chance at losing their nk, no? Whoever is the doc will be in a serious guessing game with scum. Of course, scum could wifomically submit no-kill and try to push the lynch again tomorrow, but that doesn't really play to their favor either.

If TA is not doc and an nk does go through, real doc NEEDS TO COUNTERCLAIM TOMORROW. Anyone counterclaiming after that time should be auto-lynched. I think if we pick off someone else today and let scum and doc battle it out tonight we will be in a much better place tomorrow. Sorry, these are quick thoughts, any input is appreciated, but I am resolved at this point to not lynch the uncounterclaimed doc. It is in town's favor to wait until tomorrow, provided the hypothetical real doc KNOWS THAT THEY NEED TO COUNTERCLAIM THEN.

To whom (or what) are you saying no?

Dank's 565.

How does your gut lean town on a player such as Lowell? Has his wagonhopping not met, if not surpassed, in scumminess when compared to Nadroj's?

Because its day 1 and players have all different types of playstyles. Many players wagonhop to draw attention to themselves, thinking scum will attack them. I find it a popular, but largely inneffective playstyle as most players act scummy while doing it, thus corrupting their suspect pool with townies. However, because its such a popular playstyle it becomes such a null tell that it makes said players(especially ones who lurk) perfect candidates for policy lynching.

[kikuchiyo]

This is such a anti-town statement that I'm almost willing to policy lynch Kiku for it. The only scenario we need to avoid is doc cc'ing in MYLO or LYLO - that may require a cc tomorrow, but certainly not to start the day.

Perhaps you missed this:

Sorry, these are quick thoughts, any input is appreciated,

but I am resolved at this point to not lynch the uncounterclaimed doc.

Cast unwarranted suspicions much? And no, lylo is a horrible time for a doc counterclaim. Counterclaim must come before lylo.

[kikuchiyo]

^^ Hammer this guy. Hider's are bad news.

[kikuchiyo]

If we run anyone else up we may as well mass claim and I don't think that's a good idea. I'd rather lynch the hider than the doc. The hider ability gives Lowell an excuse to make it to endgame and do whatever the fuck he wants. Its much less of a gamble to lynch Lowell than to follow through on FC/TA.

[kikuchiyo]

Sorry, but do you realize if Lowell is scum, he won't die. Each day he can confirm a scum partner. If we don't lynch him then we'll never be the wiser.

Lowell's actions would have to be planned to do us any good. i.e. If he shows up dead, we need to know who he's hiding behind. Also, doc is confirmable through nk. Hider can slide into lylo.

What are the alternatives here?

[kikuchiyo]

Lover is not Mason. Had they claimed "Lover" we could have lynched one of them to see. That kind of annoys me. At least our chances of hitting scum day 2 are pretty good now.

I would like to here more from Tenchi. They lurked during the entire day. Part of the reason I hopped back onto the FC wagon was because I thought Tenchi was "soft-claiming" doc. I know there were at least three townies on the Lowell wagon and two on the TA wagon. Really not sure where to go with this now, but the man with glasses seems a good place to start. He was much more vocal in our newbie game.

In regards to the kills, we are either looking at two factions, or mafia and an sk. Perhaps a werewolf? If its a three man faction and a third party then we are surely in lylo. Hm.

Vote: Tenchi

No reason to be timid. He's got to be scum here.

[kikuchiyo]

*sigh*

Simulpost. I will wait for a replacement.

unvote

[kikuchiyo]

Vote: Tenchi

You are not doc. Why are you lurking?

[kikuchiyo]

Part of the reason I hopped back onto the FC wagon was because I thought Tenchi was "soft-claiming" doc.

Where?

Posts 20 and 21 of Tenchi in iso. Its not a straightforward claim, but the way its worded sounded to me like something the real doc would say. Combine that with lurking and it seemed to me that Tenchi may have been playing to a power role. Obviously not, now he just wants to pass off his lurking as "I was busy". Reasonable, but I found his attacks on me to be scummy. Pressuring players defending each other on day 1 and asking for reasonable explanations for unreasonable defenses is not "rolefishing".

I know there were at least three townies on the Lowell wagon and two on the TA wagon.

Whence does this knowledge come upon you?

Lowell: 7 (ThAdmiral, dank, Mokina, Gwynplaine, kikuchiyo, qwints, Nikanor)
ThAdmiral: 5 (Hero764, Lowell, SerialClergyman, iamausername, Tenchi)

3 townies on Lowells wagon: TA, Mokina, myself
2 on TA: Hero, Lowell.

TBH I am confused as hell, but Tenchi fits the scum mold here the best. By lurking through and spreading out his attacks he has kept himself somewhat clean. He never really went after anyone on his own, but rather jumped into arguments and took sides, but never really stuck to his guns until it came to lynching the uncounterclaimed doc. I am happy with my vote at this time.

[kikuchiyo]

kiku - do you mind answering this?

kiku, could you explain the lovers comment? Could you also let us know whether you find a doc, a hider or a mason more useful?

In my experience, "lovers" can't always confirm each others alignment. Had they claimed lovers I would have pursued that point further. This would have prevented two other pr's from being outed. But as I said, its rather irrelevant as hindsight is always going to be 20/20.

I have always believed doc to be the single most protown role there is. The only time I have seen hider is as a scum fakeclaim. Masons only use is to confirm each other.

[kikuchiyo]

Personally, I wouldn't have believed them. But as I said, it is irrelevant. Please explain to me why we are still discussing it.

[kikuchiyo]

Personally, I wouldn't have believed them.

You realise the only reason for them to both lie like that would be if they were both scum, right?

No. They could be mistaken. Lover is a variable role. I would have pushed the issue more. That may have led to either thier lynch or someone else ending up in the hotseat. Changing the circumstances of the early day may have changed its outcome. What is your point?

Iam: Players determine themselves when they claim. You are creating some sort of false dilemma in which I am the antagonist. Poor play.

Tenchi is not "not around". He is here and he is avoiding this game for some reason. Also:

Posts 20 and 21 of Tenchi in iso. Its not a straightforward claim, but the way its worded sounded to me like something the real doc would say. Combine that with lurking and it seemed to me that Tenchi may have been playing to a power role. Obviously not, now he just wants to pass off his lurking as "I was busy". Reasonable, but I found his attacks on me to be scummy.

I voted Tenchi first, not second. I unvoted due to his absence. When he chimed in with nothing, I replaced my vote.

[kikuchiyo]

This game is a mess for town.

Our power roles were outed by poor play, to imply that I am some sort of scum mastermind bent on outing masons is absolutely ridiculous. Tenchi pushed that a bit yesterday and seems content to ride it today. He was around Tuesday posting up to twelve hours after he posted his "I'll be back Thursday" comment. He can come back, but I have a feeling he's going to sing the same old song. Like I said, he lurked the majority of the day, accused me of outing masons which is in and of itself just stupid as masons confirm each other and therefore probably the absolute worst power role scum would want to out, didn't seem sure about much of anything until he jumped the wagon of the uncounterclaimed doc.

SC is now using fear mongering which will be an effective scum tool given that four town power roles have been lost already. There is no need to fear monger to get your votes unless your case is weak. Problem now is that, as a townie, attacking people pushing a case on me is going to be construed as omgus.

For those not voting Tenchi: Why are you so confident that he is not scum? What exactly has he done that is "pro-town"?

[kikuchiyo]

Godammit kiku that post was frustrating. It's not like you can sit back blithley and ignore your role in our predicament. You went out and attacked the power roles, forcing some to claim and one to be lynched. Now there's no use crying about spilt milk, and you certainly weren't alone, but you also can't sit there and call out everyone else for being rubbish when you were one of the biggest culprits.

Sorry, but no. Hero was a member of an informed minority and was defending a player whose alignment he didn't know. That was scummy. Both Lowell and FC were acting scummy and lurking as well. I didn't attack "power roles", I attacked the scummiest players.

 

Just a couple of posts ago you were saying you were confused as all hell, but now you’re asking why everyone else is so sure that Tenchi isn’t scum?

You are ignoring the case. His selfsuredness in lynching the uncounterclaimed doc after a day of lurking.

Then it just so happens that the two people most suspicious from the bandwagons yesterday in my eyes both jump onto a case against Tenchi?

Get your eyes checked. You yourself are supposedly suspicious of Gwyn.

 

why on earth would you use really weak tells like lurking to make a decision on day 2? It doesn’t add up.

Of course not. Nothing adds up when you don't use all the ingredients. The case on Tenchi is not "lurking". Once you accept that you may realize that.. oh wait. You are most likely scum.

 

And finally, what do you mean fear mongering?

Basically the fact that if dank and I don't toe the line for you then you will build cases against us.

Quote please. My suspicions on you and dank are based on my post 627, actual analysis of concrete events that happened yesterday. You should perhaps try it when making a case, rather than hoping ‘he’s lurking’ will get you over the line.

You really like to refer to the case on Tenchi as "lurking". Did you forget the little content he has produced? Have you forgotten his anti-town stance on mason claims? Have you missed how he accused me of rolefishing masons when masons are the worst possible role for scum to out as it not only confirms multiple townies but hampers their nk choices?

Even if the case on Tenchi was only "lurking", how does it benefit town for you to defend him?

[kikuchiyo]

^^ Sorry. Not trying to push a quicklynch here. I presented a case on Tenchi. If you don't buy it that's fine, but the "burden of proof" lies on all of us. Am I to understand that you expect me to do your scumhunting for you? This post seems to be a bit fluffy. Why are you "waiting" for Tenchi? Can't you reread the game and post some analysis?

SC: Did you mean qwints? Dank isn't on the Tenchi wagon is he?

[kikuchiyo]

Go ahead and lynch me. You are all sitting back and asking me to figure this game out for you. If you don't agree about Tenchi thats fine. Tell me who you find suspicious and why.

Sorry, but I find anyone pushing a case on me today to be scummy. Like I said, I attacked the scummiest players yesterday. I outed an informed minority, it just happened to be the wrong one. I am pretty much done here. At this point, I am pulling for the werewolf.

[kikuchiyo]

You really like to refer to the case on Tenchi as "lurking". Did you forget the little content he has produced?

*facepalm* Aside from that point, the others you brought up were to me not particularly persuasive. I think your opinion about the mason claim has been far worse than Tenchi's, and I don't see how his posts 20 and 21 look like a claim, and even if they did to you, I odn't see how that makes him scummy.

Fair enough. However, you don't think it scummy when someone seems to soft claim a role they don't have?


SC: What would you do in my position? I am vanilla townie and I played the role to a T. I was completely wrong on who I thought scum was on day 1. Like I said before: Go ahead and lynch me. The best we can hope for is a scum/wolf crosskill to keep town viable.

I was mistaken on your suspecting Gwyn. I reread your earlier post you referenced and realize you cleared them due to their "believable" days end activities. Further, I realize that I was completely wrong on the hider. It would have been more helpful than doc. Hindsight is 20/20. Good luck. I think you are town.

[kikuchiyo]

Since rereading his posts and realizing his positions have been less dynamic than I originally thought. I am messing up at this point in time and his points against me are actually valid(some of them). Do you have anything else to offer? Seriously, I feel like we are playing "kiku has to find the scum or we are going to lynch her."

[kikuchiyo]

Well, if he was obvious and intentionally softclaiming a role he didn't have, that would be scummy. But I think he had no intention whatsoever of that, you misread it and now he's getting blamed for it.

Fine. This would also be contiguous with the fact that I misread Hero.

kiku - what's with the change in disposition? Literally a couple of posts ago you were saying i was most likely scum? I don't mean to pile on the crap if you're town and feeling defeated, so sorry if that's the case, but it's another complete and total shift in your thinking and it looks like a last-ditch appeal to emotion.

It is a last ditch appeal to emotion. I am exhausted with trying to defend myself here. I am vanilla. Lynching me might not sink town completely and at least steers the lynch away from any pr's we have left. I can only hope for crosskills to keep us viable.

If I were you and if you were town, I would first and foremost acknowledge that your death is not the end of the world, and you can still help your team. If you're town, you're about to be confirmed so, so your opinions really matter.

Nikanor actually bothers me with his insistent push on my offhanded comments about lovers. Wiirdo didn't do much for us either, so I think there might be a good start. I think dank and qwints may be clear, but if i had to choose between the two, qwints is much more fitting of scum profile with their voting pattern. Obviously, Gwyn is most likely scum of any of us as their bandwagon should have had more steam(of course, that's partially my fault).

Thus I'd do a detailed list of who you think are the scummiest targets and why so that tomorrow we can look at them as an untainted opinion and use them to try to catch the scum. The team is bigger than you.

If I get the chance I will expand on this. In fact, I could give you an iso read on everyone with analysis because the above paragraph is just off the top of my head. I am fine with being lynched as I am not someone you want in lylo at this point anyways. I will get you a post as soon as possible. Maybe late tonight, early tomorrow.

Vote Count Two

kikuchiyo: 3 (qwints, SerialClergyman, iamausername)
Tenchi: 1 (kikuchiyo)

Not Voting: 4 (dank, Gwynplaine, Nikanor, Tenchi)

With 8 alive it's 5 to lynch.

Current Deadline: Monday, August 10 4:00 PM EST

Remember kids, it's a game - have some fun

[kikuchiyo]

I am frustrated. I thought I was doing really well on day 1. Unfortunately my efforts seem to have screwed town to an unbelievable extent. Now I am in an indefensible position where almost every attack I make is going to be called omgus. I will post what I can.

[kikuchiyo]

I am not trying to avoid scrutiny.

[kikuchiyo]

Sorry, SC, but I have been busy for a couple of days and am in other games as well. I fully plan on giving you an iso read and analysis asap, however, it seems I have become more of a "deadline" lynch here, so I am in no rush. Not trying to be rude, just realistic. Reading and posting on everyone is going to take some time. I have already claimed and so you have no reason to rush my lynch. Lengthening the day can only help us.

[kikuchiyo]

@kiku - still waiting

Deadline is more than two weeks away.

[kikuchiyo]

To directly address your question:
On day 1, before the mason claim, I found kiku's behavior scummy.After the mason claim, I re-evaluated her behavior. I now think it is a null tell - that is, it is consistent with both townie and scum play.

How does a day 1 mason claim benefit scum? Had we not outed other power roles in the process, a day 1 mason claim is generally bad for the scum team as it gives town an immediate improvement in regards to the town's chances of lynching scum early. It also tends to railroad the scum nk's and leave other pr's free to work(though not in this case). Why would scum push for a mason claim as it benefits town much more than scum?

[kikuchiyo]

Decided to just reread the thread and I must say that by page 7 I am just about convinced we are looking at Wiirdo/Iamusername/Qwints. It would be difficult to put any type of case together, but both Iam and Wiirdo lack any significant activity(in fact, Iam carries suspicions over an unanswered rvs question all the way to page 6), and Qwints seems to camp his vote on Hero for quite some time riding the original "defense" argument I started. Suspicions may change as I continue, but I will keep you updated. In the meantime:

unvote, Vote: Iamusername

[kikuchiyo]

Hm. I was starting to waffle on Iam around page 11 or so, but she leaves my wagon for Mokina after the "slip", lurks through most of the rest of the argument, then after the mason claim she moves to Wiirdo with a seemingly random lurker vote. The case against me is totally dropped. I still agree with the suspicions on Qwints and Wiirdo still has yet to show up. Scum team still intact. Vote stays.

Vote Count Five

qwints: 2 (Gwynplaine, iamausername)
kikuchiyo: 2 (qwints, SerialClergyman)
iamausername: 1 (kikuchiyo)
Gwynplaine: 1 (dank)

Not Voting: 2 (DTMaster, Nikanor)

With 8 alive it's 5 to lynch.

Current Deadline: Monday, August 10 4:00 PM EST

[kikuchiyo]

Neither does yours.

unvote, vote: Qwints

Sorry about the 180, but I think Iam and SC are town. They were the only ones with enough sense to see that TA was the better lynch. I myself did not really understand the hider mechanic but noth Qwints and Dank seemed to understand it and still think it better to lynch the hider who(in retrospect and reread) would have been much more useful to town.

Dank, Qwints, Nikanor

No, I think inconsistency is a scum tell.

^^ Classic.

Finished day 1 reread.

[kikuchiyo]

Sorry, but how am I saving my own skin? It only took me forty-five minutes because that's how long it took me to finish my reread of day 1. Both Iam and SC come off as the most pro-town. Unfortunately, day 1 was entirely scummified by many players. If I need to build a bigger case I can, however, what is your current stance on Nik and Dank?

[kikuchiyo]

We could easily have 3 scum, one werewolf. That's what I think anyways. I am wondering if you've snared the entire scum team with post 750. They are all intent on the three man team and both Nik and qwints are fingering Dank. I'm basically sold on the qwints wagon. If someone has a better idea I am all ears, but I see no reason to move my vote at this point.

[kikuchiyo]

SC: I reread day 1 and posted my thoughts as I went. I would have liked to do an iso of everyone but I haven't had the time and I would hate to do an iso of two or three players and then run out of time. Best solution was a general reread and analysis.

I like how you accuse me of jumping the easy wagon and yet leave the option open for yourself to jump it in the future. If you support it, why is it scummy that I do? Especially considering that I posted the logical thought process that placed me on the wagon while doing my reread of day 1.

Post 762 appears to expand the case on scumkiku but pushes the scumkiku case with NO new evidence. Are you really calling it scummy for a player to promise iso analysis and then change their mind due to rl time constraints to do a general reread instead? Exactly how have I "gone quiet"?

[kikuchiyo]

Page 28:
1. She slightly prods Nikanor on 675, on how he bothers her with his lover's comments. (I'm also a bit confused here. Can you elaborate on this Kiku?) This is some cautious scum hunting right here.

Sorry, missed this. Not much to elaborate on. It seemed to me that Nik was beating around the bush at something. I made a comment and instead of asking truly "clarifying" questions, Nik took a more underhanded approach to discussing my comments and their implications. It was more annoying than anything, but certainly felt like he was trying to paint my comment as scummy but seemed unwilling to come out and say it. Kind of "testing the waters" type behavior.

[kikuchiyo]

qwints- If you reread my posts you will see that I am rather consistent in my suspicions. Not sure how a "blatantly oppurtunistic" vote change was meant to strengthen my position as you imply. I didn't just vote to vote. I reread day 1 and posted my suspicions as I went. If there is a flaw in my logic, feel free to point it out.

DTM- No. The iso analysis is not going to happen at this point. It proved a daunting task and I instead opted for a general thread reread. If you refer to my posts you will see that I called out specific actions and referenced specific pages. Should be proof enough that I have done what I said I would do. As for the difference in level of aggression, it can be reasonably explained by the fact that we lost four town power roles day 1. Personally, I thought I was one of the most vocal scumhunters and losing that big tends to take the wind out of anyone's sails. I am currently in an indefensible position. The only option given to me has been to reread and try again. That is what I have done.

Starting day 2 reread.

[kikuchiyo]

I hate to say it, but I don't buy the claim. There should be mafia and werewolf(s) in this game. A vig may overpower town in this one, plus there were only two nk's, so someone must have submitted a no kill if you are telling the truth. Why would someone do that on night 1?

[kikuchiyo]

ebwop:

unvote

It just occurred to me that its possible more than one nightkiller targeted TA. I still think it may overpower town here, though. Can you kill every night?

[kikuchiyo]

There is also a possibility that Admiral's night actions resolved if scum targeted someone else. The reasoning why scum would target someone else is weak though.

Basically, with the lovers, a werewolf(s) and a scumteam and a vig, the possibility lends itself to a day 2 lylo. The mod may have planned for crosskills, but it seems a highly unlikely set-up. I would like qwints to answer my question. I am wondering if a mass claim might be in order at this point. Thoughts?

[kikuchiyo]

What kind of vig "stabs" people? Not to game the mod here, but isn't vig flavor usually a gun? Stabbing is certainly more in line with sk(aka Jack the Ripper).

[kikuchiyo]

My intent was always to kill FC rather than have the town lynch him as I thought we would gain a significant amount of information from his night kill. Furthermore, I assumed that scum would kill Thadmiral if he really was the doctor.

This reads as a bit of a contradiction. Why would you target him if you thought someone else would kill him?

Seriously, DT, why the unvote? This guy is guilty as hell.

[kikuchiyo]

He was at L-1. He wasn't "lynched". Seems a bit silly to me. Why back off the wagon? Nikanor can read up for himself and decide if he wants to hammer. What are these "pending questions"?

[kikuchiyo]

Actually, though I appreciate the vote of confidence, it may not be in town's best interest to lynch an sk today. i.e. A simple deduction from the flavor of this game leads me to think we are looking at two factions, werewolves and either an sk or mafia. Most likely we have werewolves and an sk.

qwints: if you are sk please claim proper. I would rather lynch from the scum team.

To all: If qwints is sk then mafia wants him lynched as it would most likely put us in lylo tomorrow and they would be in no danger of a crosskill. I think we may be in a more advantageous position even if we mislynch today. i.e. qwints(if sk) will need to be gunning for mafia tonight in order to have some sort of chance(he also may be unk). Mafia, in turn, will most likely nk qwints in order to not have to try and push an obvious lynch on him tomorrow.

^^ Quick thoughts, though I still find the unvote suspect, I think we should be discussing our options.

Vote Count Eight

qwints: 3 (SerialClergyman, Gwynplaine, iamausername)
kikuchiyo: 1 (qwints)
Gwynplaine: 1 (dank)

Not Voting: 3 (DTMaster, kikuchiyo, Nikanor)

With 8 alive it's 5 to lynch.

Current Deadline: Monday, August 10 4:00 PM EST

[kikuchiyo]

Seriously, DT, why the unvote? This guy is guilty as hell.

You're not voting for him either. Just sayin'.

I didn't like the timing of DT's original unvote post. However, now that he has expanded on it I am more comfortable, and I also think(after dwelling on the matter) that we should be looking at more options. Obviously, if qwints doesn't claim sk then the point is moot and he should be lynched, but if he claims it may be in mafia's(or real sk's) best interest to counterclaim. Though it hands town a confirmed scum to avert lylo, it can work in any factions favor if they play their cards right(most notably an unk sk). If we're going to lose then I'd much rather see an sk win than a mafia win. Just sayin'.

[kikuchiyo]

Most likely we have werewolves and an sk.

Why is that most likely?

Sorry, most likely imo. 12 players, two nk's one with sk flavor and one with werewolf flavor. Have you been in a game with "stabbing" mafia?

though I still find the unvote suspect

Is DTMaster's unvote more "suspect" than yours? Why or why not?

Yes. a) because I know my alignment and it would be ludicrous to suspect myself, b) his came later on after qwints had made some further incriminating statements. c) tbh, I forgot that I unvoted and thought I was still on the wagon until you mentioned it. d) I felt that my unvote was a bit better explained. His further posting and my further dwelling on it has changed my mind.

[kikuchiyo]

Hm. No, not that I can see.

SC: You really need to stop fencesitting with me. qwints may have had the most votes, but I called out several players in my reread, you agree that qwints is obvscum so berating my play only makes me think you are scum trying to set up a mislynch. Though I certainly delivered something a bit different than what we initially talked about, I have delivered and participated, and if qwints flips scum then my contribution will have been huge. i.e. I am town and therefore scum is a better lynch. In regards to my vote, I forgot about the unvote. And in between qwints confirmed(to most of us, it seems) that he is, in fact, an anti-town faction. I have read games where an sk has claimed and tried to cut deals with town, and I have seen this work to town's favor and that is all I am suggesting.

Also, we will most likely not be in the position of having to lynch skqwints as mafia would most likely take care of him during night phase(unless he's unk). But whatever. If qwints flips townvig I will be committing ritual suicide tonight. If he flips sk and there are three mafia, I believe that's a mafia win, so I am hoping we have only two. If he flips sk and there is a tomorrow then we know there are only two mafia and that it is lylo.

Vote: qwints

Anyone hammering please post content with your vote regarding the recent discussion.

[kikuchiyo]

Thank you.

unvote

I will lynch with a counterclaim.

[kikuchiyo]

qwints: Please confirm your species.

[kikuchiyo]

Why are you answering for qwints?

Also, it is not town's best play to lynch sk today, mafia would be better. It is also in Mafia's best interest to lynch sk, so I don't think this avenue of discussion is worthless.

post 816 could easily be read as scumGwyn trying to tie someone else to his scumbuddy before the lynch, so

HoS

: Gwynplaine for this blatant, misguiding, hypocritical AtE.

[kikuchiyo]

You cannot simultaneously argue that qwints is a serial killer and that I'm his scumbuddy.

I am not. Sorry, obviously I should have added "If qwints flips scum then" blah blah blah. I didn't expect you to take what I said completely out of context when it was, in fact, you yourself the almighty Gwyn who put forth the idea of scumqwints as opposed to sk qwints in the first place. Hows about posting something useful? kthxbye.

[kikuchiyo]

I have to agree with much of SC. I am at this point convinced of Iam being town. SC I worry about, but I would rather choose from DTmaster or Gwyn, as the former seemed to be looking for "townie" points yesterday, and the latter seemeed to be casting a wide net of suspicion with nothing to back it up.

Reading DT's post above confirms my suspicion. His hammer post asks about a VC error, but instead of letting the mod resolve the issue he just goes ahead and hammers. An sk lynch benefitted scum way more than town and I am confident that both scum were on the qwints wagon. Suspicion list in order:

DTmaster
Gwyn
Dank
SC

I think DT is the best bet for today. I will reread to see if there are any significant connections between him and the others on this list. Iam is clear to me because scum tend to take the easier road and letting sk live to night phase would have jeapordized chances of a scum win. If need be I can link to a game where a similar lynch of an SK was spearheaded by scum. It may help in determining which of the votes on the qwints wagon were scummiest.

This one.

The SK lynch was key to the scum win, unfortunately town turned on the wrong wagoneer.

In regards to dank, a replacement will most likely take as long to catch up. If one can be found who will contribute immediately then i am okay with it, but otherwise I am not worried. I have a v/la coming up for six days myself.

[kikuchiyo]

Sorry. I am all for massclaim.

SC: What is the inherent problem regarding the no-lynch?

Mod: v/la through August 19th.

I'd also rather just wait for dank.

[kikuchiyo]

I am back. I will try to catch up tomorrow at some point, but we are still going to be settling in.

[kikuchiyo]

Honestly, I think Gwyn is the best bet here. If Gwyn is not scum then that would mean that we were ENTIRELY wrong on day 1 and I just don't see how that could be. As to defending myself I see no reason to at this time. I have posted what I can to convince you of my innocence and I think my actions do speak for themselves. I only question whether Dank is scum due to the "newbish" vibe I've pulled form him all game. Though lynching the serial killer was scummy, there were certainly townies on that wagon.

I'd rather start with Gwyn, but will not oppose the Dank lynch. My only worry is that Gwyn is paired with someone else. If Gwyn flips scum I believe we can then afford one mislynch, or am I wrong?

[kikuchiyo]

Post 805. Pre-emptive reasoning to lynhc an sk over mafia. I'm gonna shake things up here and

Vote: SerialClergyman

[kikuchiyo]

Sorry, the unbold was a bit of a gambit. I just hate that SC stayed on the sk wagon yesterday but building a case against him is difficult. I'm afraid that if he's scum then he's certainly going to win. I have him partnered with DTM. I don't like the way that SC uses my absence from the sk wagon as proof of my towniness and yet justified lynching the sk from a town perspective himself. The aforementioned post just rubs me the wrong way.

Honestly, though, I think the Gwyn/Dank theory has more than enough evidence to move forward. I would prefer Gwyn first, but if everyone wants Dank I won't stand in the way. I realize I have done some defending of Dank, so make what you want of it. Time has been tight for me with hubby starting school so I apologize for my lack of content. If votes don't start flying I will try to get something up later this week in regards to iso reads.

[kikuchiyo]

Mod: Is Dank due for a prod?

[kikuchiyo]

Unfortunately, the search engine seems to be disabled so I can't find Dank's last activity. If his lurking isn't site wide I am fine with lynching him. If he is MIA then we should maybe ask for a replacement, although I don't see him partnered with anyone but Gwyn at this time. If DTM is scum then he is most likely scum with SC, but I am ready to start voting soon and I agree with Iam that waiting may be a waste of time. So hopefully the mod will resolve this issue and we won't have to make that choice.

[kikuchiyo]

I'm game.

Vote: Dank

[kikuchiyo]

So... is that a scum victory song, or a hopeful townie one?

[kikuchiyo]

Excellent game by scum team.

Serial: Good job at rendering me virtually powerless. I think if I hadn't lost my confidence I might have been able to pick you out, however, like I said: I don't think I would have put you with Gwyn. The distancing there was awesome.

Note to town: Claimed serial killers shouldn't be lynched in those situations. As you can see, both scum were on the wagon. My partner was in a game with a similar scenario where he pushed for the sk lynch as scum and then won in lylo by lynching a townie who was also on the wagon.

Iam: Great work, I feel like I let you down a bit. I don't know if it would have made much difference, but I feel like I should have pushed for Gwyn first.

SC's two biggest scumtells: lynching the sk and casting a vote on an absent player in lylo. I bit hard on that last one.

Fun game to all.

[kikuchiyo]

So what would be the odds of lynching two scum in a row in the scenario we were in?

In my personal experience it has panned out better to hope for crosskills than to rely on lynching correctly three days in a row. Remember, just because someone claims sk doesn't mean they are. In that situation I am more comfortable getting a counterclaim. i.e. It is in mafia's best interest to counterclaim and lynch the sk giving one of themselves up if they can't outright lynch the sk. Theoretically. I just think its better town play to give the opposing factions a chance at nking each other, and only acquiescing to the sk lynch if there is a counterclaim. It forces scum to either nk the sk, or out one of their own to lynch him. I have read four games now where town lynching sk's in similar situations has always resulted in a town loss.