Open 143: Jungle Republic (Game Over!) before 787

[Thesp]

I am replacing gorckat. I will wait to post substantively until this is confirmed in-thread by ThAdmiral. Thanks.

[Thesp]

Crud. I had some posting typed up at work, and never was able to transfer it home, while I've got the time here. Let's get somewhat re-started, anyway, as much of my original thinking was superceded.

I'm not fond of AA23, and sure wouldn't mind him lynched.

Unvote

Not willing to let scum hammer the Seer without a complete re-read to reaffirm or alleviate my suspicions.

Afraid of a hammer after two people ahead of this post unvoted?

I think this was prescient as well.

I think AA23 and dejhka both have substantial chances to be scum, which makes their back & forth interesting and awesome. I'd be happy seeing both strung up. I don't particularly care yet in which order.

By the way, curse you all for getting Dust killed. I enjoyed playing with him in the newbie game I ended with him not long ago, where I strongly disavowed the RVS stage and aggressively asked questions of people to gauge their alignment. He comes here and does that, and gets rounded up. Yikes.

I absolutely do not like Mixologist's quickhammer. I think it's far more likely to come from scum than town. (There was no deadline at the time that was pressing, correct? I do not recall seeing one.)

Percy, what do you think of hewitt?
hewitt, what do you think of AceMarksman?
AceMarksman, what do you think of Percy?

A vicious pun! This makes me take you less seriously. The more confident and self-assured you proport yourself, the less I believe you.

Crud, this doesn't bode well for you ever believing me.

In other news-Welcome, Thesp.

Thanks!

Thesp: What are your feelings on Mix?

I disagree with you on him - I think he needs to die. Along with AA23 and dejhka. I'm happy lynching any of them. I don't mind the pressure on AceMarksman. There are some others I won't lynch that I'm not going into at this moment.

I greatly appreciate the activity in this game, though I think it could do with less walls o' text.

Glad to be in the game! I'll post more when I have those few questions answered, or if anyone has particular questions for me.

[Thesp]

I think AA23 and dejhka both have substantial chances to be scum, which makes their back & forth interesting and awesome. I'd be happy seeing both strung up. I don't particularly care yet in which order.

Any reasons why? That's a pretty baseless statement that, if you don't elaborate on, would make me happy to see you "strung up".

Yes, I have reasons. It'd be silly of me to have suspicions without reasons.

You just "don't mind" it? So you want Me, AA and Mix lynched, but you're not sold on Ace?

I understand what's been levied against him, I just don't find it as moving as some other people right now. I think he's behind in contribution and should he be scum it would be useful to have some better interactions from him, so I appreciate and support pressure on him, though, and agree that he shouldn't be ignored. I'm not sure why that's problematic.

Welcome to the party (Die Hard, anyone?)

I know, but at the end he said he'll post more when the questions are answered or if someone has questions for him, which implied that he wasn't going to explain unless asked to, which is not a protown approach to take.

Why isn't it pro-town? I can't take your presumption at face value, and in fact I strongly disagree with it. (I suspect this belief belies your consternation of Empking, which is perhaps more reason to shake the foundation of this presumption.)

[Thesp]

Why isn't it pro-town?

Because, if you're scum, saying who you suspect and who you will not lynch without giving any reasons at all, gives you time to think of reasons over the course of time. And the longer you do that, the more likely it is that you are scum. There's no reason why you can't give it all in one post.

So I'd suggest that everyone be aware of what he's doing. Or rather, what he's not doing, because all he's doing is buying himself time to think of something acceptable.

1. It wouldn't be hard for anyone to make up a bunch of junk to justify their vote, particularly with the people in question, whether or not they actually suspected someone. Stated reasons are overrated (and sometimes scummy).
2. I rarely post justification with votes unless I'm looking to convince people of my perspective. I'm not interested in swaying people at this time.
3. I don't want to waste people's time with justifications if they don't care about it. There's already enough to read in this game.
4. I'm not particularly interested in giving reasons for my suspicions of you to you. If other people are interested in them, I may post them.
5. It is often useful to see who is inquiring about justifications, and to what end. Why deprive myself of that tool?

If I was buying time, why would I bother posting in the first place without them? How hard would it be to come up with justifications?

I would be quite happy with my vote on you.

[Thesp]

^In This Post: horrible play.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

[Thesp]

I like how there is still -zero- pressure on someone who is flat out ignoring this game.

Forgive my denseness, whom are you referring to here?

[Thesp]

Will get a substantial post in tonight, please hold me to that. (Monday and Tuesday are usually my busiest days, so it will be uncommonc for me to give good posts during them, I should have warned in advance.)

[Thesp]

Percy, what do you think of hewitt?

Fairly null read at the moment. He's anti-AA, anti-Mix, anti-Ace. I'd like to hear more of his thoughts on Ace, as is the case with everyone.

Why do you ask?

I asked because I thought your answer would be informative.

I disagree with you on [Mix] - I think he needs to die. Along with AA23 and dejhka. I'm happy lynching any of them. I don't mind the pressure on AceMarksman. There are some others I won't lynch that I'm not going into at this moment.

Can you explain in more detail why you want dej and AA lynched. I would also like you to expand on who the 'others' are.

For dejkha, in part I'm not comfortable with his early-stated (and later affirmed) zwet/Empking lynch policy, it feels like he's giving himself an out for later rounds. I'm also a little befuddled with how up in arms he got with AA23 in his back-and-forths, and surprised he makes almost no comment on Mixologist until late in the day, only a throwaway comment of "I just don't see anything scummy about his hammer" when zwet clearly should have been given the chance to claim yesterday.

I like some of your thoughts on AA23 (though particularly I'm not sure how far I follow you on the '9/11 truther' comparison), but more particularly the tunnel vision and verbal diarrhea bothers me. He seems to be tunneling in on one person to the exclusion of others in a game with 5 scum, which is not only unhelpful, but allows him to jump from target to target day to day without having to account much for previous days beyond saying "my bad" if he's wrong.

I will not expand on who the 'others' are at this time. (I probably shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place.)

I understand what's been levied against [Ace], I just don't find it as moving as some other people right now.

I would appreciate it if you could tell me how Ace-as-town makes sense to you.

I don't find Ace-as-town to be terribly compelling. I just find others as more likely to be scum. I'm perfectly fine with an AceMarksman lynch.

@Hewitt- Percy explained the Ace case pretty well. Do you understand why Ace was lying now? And why do you continue to hardly post and post little when you do.

Okay I get it now and that was pretty flipping dodgy of AceMarksmen but I'm still going to have to stick with my vote for Mixologist. Between the two I think Mix is the scummier play and did a scummier move.

I get that you think Mixologist is worse, but do you think AceMarksman is likely to be scum? It's becoming increasingly unclear.

The only player I had really been thinking about in this game was Mixologist. And AA23 by default because he posts so much but not because I think he's scummy just because he stood out in my mind.

Why? (I don't get this.)

@Thesp - - thoughts on my presented case that people are voting in favor of given the evidence that exists AND people are NOT voting of....while still acknowledging the evidence that exists. Where does your vote lie, and if it doesn't lie on the two given cases, do you have one of your own.

@Khamisa, Thesp and Ash: You're not voting. Why? What do you think of the cases?

I'm really happy lynching either - I think they're both scum. I'd be happy with my vote on either one, and don't feel the need to choose, I'll choose whichever is closer to lynch.

Apologies, Ash.

It's Ace who isn't voting.

What a surprise.

I feel like this is just turning into a dejkha vs. AA23 game.

Maybe if you and others started taking part, it wouldn't be that way.

I know but honestly I don't care about your guys' argument. If I had to pick a side I couldn't because I just don't think either side is really compelling.

Who are your top 3 candidates? Any push any direction?

Hewitt: Three reason why Mix is scum.

Mix: Three reasons why Ace is scum?

Ugh. Honorary Vote: Empking

Why?

Hewitt: Three reason why Mix is scum.

No, before I answer this you give me three solid reasons why you're voting Mixologist. You can't just float through this game asking questions.

I'd like to hear three reasons why you think Mixologist is scum as well.

Actually, the more I think on it, I have a slight preference towards lynching AceMarksman, as I find the AceMarksman-AA23 combo compelling, and it'd be nice to hit two-for-one. I have no qualms hammering either, but want a significant post from either before I'd do the deed.

AceMarksman, what do you think of AA23?

[Thesp]

He seems to be tunneling in on one person to the exclusion of others in a game with 5 scum

, which is not only unhelpful, but allows him to jump from target to target day to day without having to account much for previous days beyond saying "my bad" if he's wrong.

I will not expand on who the 'others' are at this time.

(I probably shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place.)

This is hypocritical to me - -

I'm not sure I made it clear - the 'others' referred to in the post (by Percy and I) are the people I won't lynch today.

If I were voting someone for weak reasons, that's understandable (note Emp voting me when the only two tangable cases are Ace/Mix) but I'm not - I'm voting a justified case

This is a straw man - scum will likely have excellent cases they can pursue - there's another scum group, after all. Heck, even in games with a single group, scum can often pursue excellent cases against hapless townies.

Having a good case does not preclude you from being scum.

There are only two people with cases on them - - I have nothing to go on for anyone else

I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly, are you suggesting you only have two people you think are scummy, and uncertain on the rest?

I think it's unintelligent, ignorant, foolish, dirty, and childish to attach me to the potential guilt of someone just because I'm not walking in line with you (Ace wagoners)

I agree with the general tone of this sentiment (though not the derogatory aspects of it) while thinking it's unlikely many in this game fit this as described.

[Thesp]

They describe the act more so than the person.

I'm not sure what this is referring to.

I find Mix scum, Ace suspicious, I think Emp is actively lurking but his meta suggests nothing out of the norm, and am unsure about the rest (all the while uncomfortable with Dej's confrontational behavior) - - That's all.

I'm a bit flabbergasted/surprised/befuddled that you have what appears to be at best 2.5 suspects, and are

unsure about the rest

, particularly given the attention you've paid to this game.

I respect both the cases we have going right now, and I in no way am bashing the Ace case - I just want to see this one through before I contribute to it - - otherwise, would I not come across as hypocritical if I laid out reasons and thoughts on why Ace should be lynched all the while wanting Mix out?

No. (I've been on one wagon while supporting others as well in the past.)

I will not expand on who the 'others' are at this time. (I probably shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place.)

Yes, because now you are publicly withholding information from the town. Noted.

I'm also withholding it from the scum, which I feel is more important at this time. As before, I probably shouldn't have said anything on the subject in the first place.

zwet clearly should have been given the chance to claim yesterday.

What use would a claim have been?

What if

zwet

claimed seer? (In fact, his constant little "Dust is scum" comments led me to think he was trying to indicate that he was actually the seer, whilst his play demanding the seer claimed seemed so forced that while reading through, I suspected he was setting up a seer claim.) It seemed entirely possible to me that zwet was going to claim seer as well, which as town was gutsy (and likely unhelpful, but a gambit nonetheless that might have drawn an erroneous nightkill), and as scum would have stalled for a little bit before having him strung up anyway.

Mixologist's quick hammer makes sense for preventing such a scenario, and the refusal to ask for a claim makes a heck of a lot of sense

if he already presumes that Dust is the actual seer

. I'm greatly uncomfortable with the quick hammer because it's most tactically sound for scum, and not at all tactically sound for town to have done.

[Thesp]

Hewitt: Three reason why Mix is scum.

Mix: Three reasons why Ace is scum?

Also, still interested in these answers (as well as others, I'm sure, but these particularly struck me).

Vote Count

Mixologist 4 - AA23, AshMC1984, hewitt, Khamisa
AceMarksman 3 - Mixologist, Percy, dejkha
AA23 1 - Empking

with 10 alive it is 6 to lynch so Mixologist is -2

[Thesp]

Is anyone unclear as to where AA23 stands with regards to Mixologist and AceMarksman? (I suspect no one is.)

[Thesp]

Personal attacks aren't necessary. Let's keep criticisms to actual play, pretty please.

[Thesp]

Personal attacks are very necessary.

No, they're really not. I'm sure you can be a big enough person to keep it civil. Thanks.

[Thesp]

Hewitt: Three reason why Mix is scum.

Mix: Three reasons why Ace is scum?

Ugh. Honorary Vote: Empking

Why?

This is my way of telling Empking that his trend of popping up to say hello without really contributing has not gone unnoticed by me.

You think Empking hasn't been contributing?

[Thesp]

Mod - what's the status on the prods, here? Any replacing/responses?

Ace asked to be replaced and Mixologist didn't respond so I am looking for two replacements.

I am sorry to the person replacing into Ace's role. You have especially tough shoes to fill. (Not that Mixologist's doesn't.)

[Thesp]

I want to hear detailed thoughts from Sotty on who the scum are and why.

Pronto.

[Thesp]

Hey guys. I'm almost caught up on the game, I'm gonna try and get something up by the end of the day.

Excellent. Thanks! (And thanks for replacing into a pretty monstrous game!)

[Thesp]

Oh my holy goodness, AA23 please hold off for a moment, I want to hear from Sotty7.

(For realz.)

[Thesp]

Just back from lunch and I'm at the top of page 19. I can be a little slow reading at times, but I should be posting my thoughts in a few hours.

Ugh, you're just getting to the worst parts, I'm sorry!

[Thesp]

Oh my holy goodness, AA23 please hold off for a moment, I want to hear from Sotty7.

Quoted for truthery.

[Thesp]

Oh my holy goodness, AA23 please hold off for a moment, I want to hear from Sotty7.

[Thesp]

Thanks for your contribution, Sotty7.

Vote: Sotty7.

[Thesp]

I do.

[Thesp]

I haven't forgotten about you all, I'll get something posted tonight.

[Thesp]

This back and forth is getting very tiring.

I hope no one is taking things personally, and I hope people consider their personal approaches a little more carefully.

That aside, I'm happy with my vote - I think Mixologist was incredilikely to be scum, and Sotty7 has taken his role. While I don't mind an askance look at Percy (as I've had reservations of him in the past), I have generally regarded his approach as very consistent pro-town, and is the first to acknowledge looking through AshMC1984's stuff. To me, this seems to indicate town or werewolf, and I'm perfectly content ignoring him. (He might be worth revisiting near the endgame, as would anyone, but not worth consideration now.)

---

I would also like everyone to post their top three suspects, and why they are suspicious to them.

Fair enough at this point.

Mixologist/Sotty7

- I'm still unsettled by the unnecessary quickhammer:

Mixologist's quick hammer makes sense for preventing such a scenario, and the refusal to ask for a claim makes a heck of a lot of sense

if he already presumes that Dust is the actual seer

. I'm greatly uncomfortable with the quick hammer because it's most tactically sound for scum, and not at all tactically sound for town to have done.

dejkha

- His contempt of questioning by AA23 is unsettling.

hewitt

- Bizarre abandoning of Mixologist wagon today after refusing to discuss him further yesterday. I don't think he's trying to scumhunt.

On the last two, the order is interchangeable.

I find myself waffling on AA23, and am moving more towards the camp that he's a tunnel-visioned townie.

---

@ Sotty -

You're playing EXTREMELY scummy in that post.

I strongly disagree with this.

---

Empking, what do you think of Hewitt?

---

No one ever starts off at equal standings with Emp at the beginning. He's automatically the scummiest because of how he plays. And because it's impossible to read it, anything scummy he does is a nulltell, while if anyone else does it, it's scummy (assuming it's not part of their playstyle). I could have easily started a wagon on Emp, but for me, their was two options: you or someone I can get a read on, and since I doubt you'll reach a lynch today, I voted hewitt since I knew that wasn't how he normally plays.

What do you mean by the word "scummiest"/"scummy"? I think there's some language confusion between what you're saying and what I'm hearing from you on this.

(reads more)

...

dejkha, please lay off some.

...

You too, AA23. Thanks.

...

Still happy with a Mixologist/Sotty7 lynch.

[Thesp]

Thesp: I'm getting a slight town read on Hewitt as it looks like he's trying to scum hunt.

hewitt

is trying to scumhunt? I'm having a very hard time following you there.

Vote Count

Sotty7 2 - AA23, Thesp
AA23 2 - dejkha, Empking
Percy 1 - Sotty7
dejkha 1 - Hewitt
Empking 1 - Percy

[Thesp]

Thesp: I'm getting a slight town read on Hewitt as it looks like he's trying to scum hunt.

hewitt

is trying to scumhunt? I'm having a very hard time following you there.

I think he is.

Is there anything in particular that gives you that impression?

[Thesp]

That aside, I'm happy with my vote - I think Mixologist was incredilikely to be scum, and Sotty7 has taken his role. While I don't mind an askance look at Percy (as I've had reservations of him in the past), I have generally regarded his approach as very consistent pro-town, and is the first to acknowledge looking through AshMC1984's stuff. To me, this seems to indicate town or werewolf, and I'm perfectly content ignoring him. (He might be worth revisiting near the endgame, as would anyone, but not worth consideration now.)

If he could be a werewolf, why are you content to ignore him till end game?

In large part, because I think there are several who are more likely to be either werewolf or mafia.

Thesp: I'm getting a slight town read on Hewitt as it looks like he's trying to scum hunt.

hewitt

is trying to scumhunt? I'm having a very hard time following you there.

I think he is.

Is there anything in particular that gives you that impression?

His posts seems to be consise scum hunting rather than the one upping that's going on.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you properly - is it his preciseness that gives you the impression that he's scumhunting? (I do agree that the on-upping is extraneous to the task at hand.)

[Thesp]

Obviously, you are still scummy to me, but AA23 has lifted from bad play to scum play. He not only switched very easily from a case he had been following all day to another, but his vote was quickly followed by Ash, who we now know is Mafia. Kind of a swift way to end the day, if you ask me.

Also, now that you've brought it up, the Dust wagon also proves a good point. AA23 was on it, so was Ash. Percy I can also see as scum, but probably Wolf, judging from his relationship with AA23. We also have lurker Empking on there.

Are you suggesting that this indicates that Ash & AA23 are more likely to be scum together?

[Thesp]

So you want a replacement to come in and say "Hi! I'm so-and-so's replacement, but I'm scum, so you can just lynch me now! Thanks! No. That's not how it works. Replacements should be given a chance.

I agree with the sentiment that we should not expect replacements to claim scum. What does that have to do with giving them a chance?

I do think Thesp's vote was a bit mocking, as it seems he was going to vote Sotty no matter what he said.

I did not intend to mock Sotty7. I did indeed intend to vote for him, almost no matter what he said.

---

What do you mean by the word "scummiest"/"scummy"? I think there's some language confusion between what you're saying and what I'm hearing from you on this.

I guess I could say, by default he should be the first to go, because his play is the scummiest. Like, if we had to lynch right off the bat, he should always be the first choice. I can't think of another way to say it =/

This is circular - if he should be the first to go because his play is the "scummiest", what do you mean by

"scummy"/"scummiest"

? I'm asking because this is important to understanding what you are saying - I'm not trying to be difficult.

[Thesp]

This is circular - if he should be the first to go because his play is the "scummiest", what do you mean by

"scummy"/"scummiest"

? I'm asking because this is important to understanding what you are saying - I'm not trying to be difficult.

That's the best way I can think to explain it. It doesn't seem that hard.

I am not asking you to explain why you dislike Empking. I am asking you what you mean by the word "scummy". To say that "scummy" means "scummy" is unhelpful. Please try again - this is important to me.

Thesp: You do I find most suspicious? You do I find town?

Huh? (Can you re-phrase? I'm obviously not getting something here.)

[Thesp]

I do think Thesp's vote was a bit mocking, as it seems he was going to vote Sotty no matter what he said.

I did not intend to mock Sotty7. I did indeed intend to vote for him, almost no matter what he said.

For the record, I didn't feel mocked. But you kept saying over and over you wanted people to stop until I had caught up and posted. Why wait to place your vote if it didn't matter what I was going to say?

What you said

did indeed

matter. I wanted you to feel more comfortable and at ease with what you would say, and thus perhaps more likely to give out telling information on who your partner is. I've caught scum many times before based on what their partners said (or didn't say) about them moreso than what they themselves said. If you felt you'd be lynched no matter what you said, I'm not sure how that would have affected your approach towards your scumbuddies, and the data would be less useful.

[Thesp]

I agree with the sentiment that we should not expect replacements to claim scum. What does that have to do with giving them a chance?

AA23 made it sound like the replacements are pointless; we are likely to lynch them anyway. I'm saying that if we're going to put all the effort into finding a replacement, they should at least be able to state their case.

Do you think we should lynch the player most likely to be scum, or the person who plays the worst?

What you said did indeed matter. I wanted you to feel more comfortable and at ease with what you would say, and thus perhaps more likely to give out telling information on who your partner is. I've caught scum many times before based on what their partners said (or didn't say) about them moreso than what they themselves said. If you felt you'd be lynched no matter what you said, I'm not sure how that would have affected your approach towards your scumbuddies, and the data would be less useful.

but wouldn't you say that scum are more likely to slip when their pressured, and not when they are able to make a good, well-thought-out post?

Not always.

---

I am not asking you to explain why you dislike Empking. I am asking you what you mean by the word "scummy". To say that "scummy" means "scummy" is unhelpful. Please try again - this is important to me.

I know what you want me to explain and I gave an example as to what I meant. I just can't see what's so hard to understand about it and I can't think of a way to make it any simpler.

Perhaps if you could define "scummy" as a dictionary would. I'm not understanding why it's so difficult for you to explain what you mean by the word "scummy"

without using the word scummy

. What you've said so far is this:

I guess I could say, by default he should be the first to go, because his play is the scummiest.

Can you say this another way without using the word scummy? (This is pretty darn important to me understanding you here - I think we have some dissonance in communication.)

[Thesp]

Ok, I'll take the dictionary approach.

Scummy - To play as Mafia might.

Isn't that generally what "scummy" means?

You'd be surprised.

More on this later tonight.

[Thesp]

Oh my goodness, I post less than two days ago, and I'm already two pages buried.

dejkha, why do you think we should lynch people? (I'm going somewhere with this - I think the meta-theory on this is important.)

Percy, I haven't gone through the calcs and percentages myself, but I think there's something else that might aid our position. Are you accounting for potential crosskills? (On the whole of things, though, this isn't terribly important yet, so if it's a drain on your time, don't worry about it.)

---

Do you think we should lynch the player most likely to be scum, or the person who plays the worst?

I think the player more likely to be scum. I'm not sure how that relates to the replacements though. In my opinion, we should have allowed time for both to be replaced.

Tactically, I agree with you. Practically, it's more difficult to gauge. I would have really liked to have seen a replacement for AceMarksman come in, give us their thoughts, then lynch them, but it seemed a little unfair to the potential replacement and to the mod. Of course, it would have been even more ideal if AceMarksman did it himself, but there's no accounting for people.

With tomorrow's lynch being so crucial, and your stated dread of having Empking around for the endgame, I invite you now to place your vote on Empking, or tell me why I should believe there's a better-than-average chance Empking is Town.

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

I don't think everything he does is "null", even if he is more difficult to read. I have noticed that he responds to almost all questions levied against him (I don't recall him missing one of mine), yet you seem content to lob meta-hate at him rather than inquire towards him so as to determine his alignment. That's disturbing.

Percy, in the event that we must get a WW kill, we'll need any remaining mafia members to claim otherwise we both have a good chance at losing. I don't mean to say that as if you're mafia, just throwing it out there.

I agree with this 100%. If any mafiates claim, not only should we not lynch them, but it improves our odds of getting a correct werewolf lynch. This is important.

MAFIA: YOUR BEST PLAY IS TO CLAIM NOW. WE WILL NOT LYNCH YOU, IN FACT IT WOULD BE TACTICALLY UNSOUND TO LYNCH YOU. CLAIM FOR YOUR OWN SURVIVAL. OTHERWISE, IT IS EXTREMELY LIKELY THAT THE WOLVES WILL WIN.

I think we all need to support this.

I sure wouldn't mind lynching dejkha if we're not going to lynch Sotty7 today.

Percy, Emp, Hewitt, Khamisa, Thesp.

Sotty and Dej are getting real active over my gameplan and thoughts on the subject, I would like to hear your opinions and I motion that we eliminate Mix(Sotty) to reveal her as Wolf.

I agree with you that I think Sotty7 is most likely to be scum, though I don' follow you that Sotty7 is most likely to be one scum faction over another.

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

I don't find Empking all that compelling.

I also don't see what the big deal is about AA23's hypotheses. I disagree with a couple of them, but I don't think it's as soul-wrenchingly incoherent as it seems to be to others.

---

I stated this because both of you were more confident in the Mix case a day later. Thesp was confident in it with no new information or evidence and admits that nothing Sotty said would have stopped his vote.

Do you think my certainty in voting Mixologist/Sotty7 was new or innovative?

---

Your comments on Thesp's vote on Sotty are somewhat sound - his case needs more fleshing out, and I've already asked a question aimed at getting him to do just that.

I seem to have overlooked this - can you repeat? Thanks!

---

hewitt

- Bizarre abandoning of Mixologist wagon today after refusing to discuss him further yesterday. I don't think he's trying to scumhunt.

How was it bizarre abandonment?

You were third on the Mixologist wagon yesterday, stuck with it when questioned about it, refused to give reasons for it when directly asked, then the next day he's not even on your top 3 list of most likely to be scum, without much mention of why, other than "I think I was probably wrong and the opposing bandwagon was right". The opposing bandwagon referred to seems to be the AceMarksman wagon, which was in fact a townie lynch. That whole bit is incredibly bizarre to me. Why the change of heart?

hewitt

is trying to scumhunt? I'm having a very hard time following you there.

Haha okay I'm actually going to have to agree with you here and not Empking. I think I'm sucking in this game so I'm surprised that he's all the sudden defending me.

Needs more Sotty7 lynch.

[Thesp]

Why are all these random words being bolded? I think It's a clever form of daytalking between the scum.

Scum can talk at any time Khamisa*

Thinking about it - this makes me feel a bit better about Khamisa.

[Thesp]

Thesp, I asked those who supported the "Sotty is scum" theory whether they have found any evidence today that points to her scumminess. Honestly, I don't think there is any.

No, I don't think there is either. I think Sotty7 has played exceptionally well for whatever team she's on. I just think she's on a scum team.

WARNING! WARNING! MATHS AHEAD!

Percy, I haven't gone through the calcs and percentages myself, but I think there's something else that might aid our position. Are you accounting for potential crosskills?

Yep, full analysis involves every possibility.

Just in case you want to know how I do it, I'll describe what I did, and my first mistake.

I've got a nice big blackboard at work, but a big piece of paper will do. I start with

4/2/2

written at the top, corresponding to 4 townies, 2 wolves, 2 mafia. I then start a tree diagram, beginning with the lynch, so my next row looks like

3/2/2 4/1/2 4/2/1

with arrows and appropriate probability weightings from the top (1/2 for the first, and 1/4 for the others in this case - with 4 townies, there's a 50% chance we'll hit one if we lynch at random, and so forth). Then, I factor in the NK, so the next row looks like

2/2/2 3/2/1 3/1/2 4/1/1 3/2/1 4/2/0

These are all the possible lineups we could be facing tomorrow. Each of these possibilities is possibly winnable for the town, but some are far better than others. There are, of course, probability arrows that come from each of the possibilities in the second row down to the third row (the arrows coming from the first entry in the second row being 3/5 and 2/5).

This tree becomes incredibly big, and whenever a game ends in a particular faction win scenario, I stop and mark it. I then simply multiply the probabilities along each branch that is marked with a particular faction's win, and add them all together. Then I go to the second faction. This is enough to determine the third faction (the probabilities add up to 1), but I did the third just to confirm.

It's a lot simpler if you have a game with one mafia faction and one town faction - the nightkill simply removes a townie, and each lynch only has two branches, not three. Thus one day only has two possible days that can follow, rather than six. It's not too hard, and everyone should try it if they're making setups.

Initially, I didn't attach weightings to the branches, which was far too optimistic and skewed the results in the town's favour. Whilst it was a working

estimate

, the way I did it the second time around is mathematically sound.

So sorry that's such a long answer to your question, but yes, those probabilities are full and accurate.

[aside]I'd love to see a setup designed by you someday. Have you given any thought to designing Open Games?[/aside]

---

Khamisa - post 148 - - he corrected my own mistake on the set up and expressed a good knowledge of the set up.

I'm not convinced that knowing the numbers of scum is as rock-solid knowledge of the setup as is knowing night-talking abilities. (Looks like Percy beats me to this.)

---

hewitt

is trying to scumhunt? I'm having a very hard time following you there.

Haha okay I'm actually going to have to agree with you here and not Empking. I think I'm sucking in this game so I'm surprised that he's all the sudden defending me.

Needs more Sotty7 lynch.

No.

Right now I think he is fixating on AA. While I can understand and even emphasize with his frustrations I don't think he is paying enough attention to the rest of the game. I have to wonder if this constant back and forth bickering that the two of them have going isn't helping dej hide to a certain degree. Fair enough he does answer questions leveled at him and even defends himself when necessary, but when it comes to actually hunting scum... I'm not really feeling a lot of that from him which is troubling.

I agree 100,000%.

---

dejkha, why do you think we should lynch people? (I'm going somewhere with this - I think the meta-theory on this is important.)

For people in general, I think they should be lynched for scummy behavior and/or playing unlike themselves when compared to similar game situations/conditions. Not so much in Emps case though. He should just be lynched for being him.

See, I think we should lynch people

because they are more likely to be scum

. Sure, you can meta-lynch someone because you feel their playstyle is unhelpful, but it won't help your win condition in this game. I'm feeling that you're hiding behind this decidedly anti-town position as a matter of convenience rather than for practicality. The further you press it, the more it moves from being simply "anti-town" to "anti-town and more-likely-to-be-scum".

I don't think everything he does is "null", even if he is more difficult to read. I have noticed that he responds to almost all questions levied against him (I don't recall him missing one of mine), yet you seem content to lob meta-hate at him rather than inquire towards him so as to determine his alignment. That's disturbing.

When a question to him ultimately leads to him calling me scummy for questioning him, I don't see the point.

Why are you worried about someone calling you scummy?

Whoa, whoa, whoa... since when do you think?
...
Apparently stupidity and pressure come in the same package.
...
And I told you that you are, in fact, stupid. So that actually counters you thinking that.
...
I would, but I'm trying to get past how retarded you are. Guess it's a family thing. Trust me, that's much more distracting. Don't get me wrong though, it hasn't completely gotten you yet because you're still able to form coherent sentences, granted I've never actually seen a retards writing ability but I can't imagine it's very good.
...
Oh boy, that was fun. I wasn't too harsh was I? It's official though, you're worse that Empking. You're like Empking if he had a giant ego and a retarded family member.

This is inappropriate and absolutely uncalled for.

so either you're a lying hypocrite, or you should take some deep and slow breaths before you type like an attention deprived child about things you don't seem to understand.

As is this.

**Keep this in mind.

Picture my hate for you.

I told you that thinking I weren't town would be stupid. That thinking I were a villain would make you WRONG again.

Is it really that hard to believe me? To believe that I look forward to gloating in your face at the endgame about how terrible you are at this game? How you were early on two town wagons with passion, and furthermore were wrong about me just as you lost your town in our previous game for being wrong about me then? Count the "wrongs" Dej.

I want you to picture it. The town (whether win or lose). I want you to picture me laughing at you in the endgame.

I think this would be an inappropriate response. If you're town, you should be frustrated with yourself for allowing dejkha to distract the town significantly. The wall of words between both of you has made re-reads nearly impossible from a practical standpoint. It's anti-town on the part of both of you.

---

Empking, we need a couple of answers from you, if I recall correctly.

---

Here are a couple of articles Wikipedia has amongst its own policies on handling disagreements:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Etiquette
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... _bad_faith
Now, we come to the game with different perspectives, and we are also cognizant that the people we are speaking with may not have our best interests (from a game standpoint) in mind. Still, these principles are sound and easily applicable, and should be exhibited a little bit more, methinks. It's appropriate to disagree, and in all seriosuness, most of the AA23/dejkha argument boils down to "uh huh! / Nuh uh!" Reasonable people can disagree on things. Cool it.

Town:
*I'm taking a couple of days to cool off and am not sure about coming back.

I think this is a good idea. Please do. I hope you return.

[Thesp]

I'm fine lynching dejkha instead of Sotty7, even though I feel like I shouldn't be.

[Thesp]

Why are you worried about someone calling you scummy?

The point is that you can't get any helpful answers from him. That regardless of what you ask him it will always end with him calling you scummy because you're not satisfied with his awful, awful answers. Anytime Percy was questioning him it shouldn't have been terribly hard to see that he wasn't getting anything other than typical Emp.

This feels like a defeatist and short-sighted approach. After all, why not gauge what sorts of answers he gives when he's scum as compared to when he's town? I suspect there will be some nuanced differences.

I'm concerned with the fact that you're not trying. That to me indicates that you really don't care about his alignment (which isn't terribly different from what you've stated before). It's been my experience that town tend to care far more about these things than scum do.

(For what it's worth, I think I've gotten useful answers from him, even if they are difficult answers.)

[Thesp]

Vote: Sotty7 with additional suspicion of being "werewolf"
For Mix's questionable and scummy actions
For parallel investigations to a now known wolf (Mix)
And for an ex-wolf's emotional response to accusations on his potential partner (and himself).

Hopefull this will clear up nightkills.

You know my thoughts on this.

Vote: Sotty7

.

[Thesp]

Vote; AA

Those large posts between AA & Dej look like bussing now we know Dej was a wolf.

This may be the most absurd thing I've seen in the thread so far.

Really? That looks like

bussing

? dejkha was practically begging for a modkill there, which would be silly if a deliberately employed tactic - the entire exchange looks incredibly genuine to me.

[Thesp]

Actually, if there's any "bussing", dejkha looks like he's anti-

you

the whole time, but never puts forth a serious attack on you, votes you only when goaded by Percy on it, and hops off your wagon the moment Percy leaves it. It looks far more like dejkha wanted to look like he was hostile towards you, while not doing anything to seriously threaten your survival.

Unvote: Sotty7.

Empking may be the better play today. I need to re-read.

Vote Count

Sotty7 2 - AA23, Thesp
AA23 1 - Empking

[Thesp]

I'm also concerned about the NK.

A smart wolf would have tried to discredit me and proved my hypothesis to have an inconsistency to counter the check mark from Dej's allignment.

what's everyone's thought on the NK?

I haven't the slightest clue what you're suggesting here, but I suspect the wolf didn't care nearly as much as you do about your hypothesis (whatever it might be), especially with their nightkill. I'm not surprised it was Percy, as he seemed more pro-town than anyone - I doubt he would have been lynched.

[Thesp]

If Mafia

mislynches

Emp, we will be in twighlight with

How in the hell do you

know

it is going to be a mislynch? You can't be 100% on me being a wolf, you aren't a cop.

Funny how your whole post 807 should have both myself and emp as possible mislynches. There is no actual new information there just more fear to bend people to your way. The fact is you can input ANYONES name in for mine in your 807 and it won't lose any meaning.

QFT. While I agree Sotty7 is likely to be scum, I'm beginning to think that Empking is most likely to be dejkha's partner. AA23, I think the parallels you've drawn between dejkha and Sotty7 are more likely to be

contra

-indicators for partnership.

[Thesp]

Right now, I'm targetting Sotty with more tangable evidence attached to educated reasoning and logical application (basically, existing "hard" evidece starting with the dirty hammer, and me attaching it to theory)

Whereas the Emp notion is purely speculation and theory that is

void

of substantial evidence to the degree upon Sotty.

...

I cannot urge this enough - - - Mix(Sotty) is the more appropriate candidate for a lynch - his case is based on suspicion, theory, and actually actions that indicate not only villain, but through relationships, that he is wolf. Emp is purely thoughts and air - - speculation.

It seems a little naive to suggest that the case against Sotty7 is the only case with sound reasoning behind it. One of the strongest aspects of it is that dejkha talks about Empking in a hostile manner the whole game, yet seems to try to avoid having anything substantive come about from it. In fact, he relies on his "meta" of hating Emp to show hostility, which couples as a mild deterrent to anyone else getting on an Empking wagon, since dejkha's reasoning is

prima facie

crap. Furthermore, Empking never makes any significant push towards dejkha, and in the past few days has been getting more and more irrational and reclusive.

I'm having a hard time how you see that as "purely speculation and theory that is

void

of substantial evidence to the degree upon Sotty". I don't think that's intellectually responsible.

AA23, which do you think is more likely for scum to do: (A) Aggressively oppose the lynch of their partner; or (B) Ignore pressure on their partner, hope it goes away, and steer it elsewhere?

What is MAJORLY unfortunate right now is that for the first time, Scum does not have the same interest as the town.

I'm guessing you mean "mafia" for scum. (When I use the term, I mean any anti-town factions, for what it's worth.) Either way, this statement is pretty humorous.

can anyone see AA23 and Emp as mafia here?

I don't think AA23 is scum, and I especially don't think he'd be scum with Empking.

[Thesp]

I am increasingly happy with an Empking lynch.

Vote: Empking.

[Thesp]

Just got back from the cottage (tres burned.) - I'm relieved a lynch hasn't gone through but am not impressed that there's an L-1 with weak suspicions and les discussion.

In my quickread, some things jumped at me from more than one person.

People think Emp is wolf (seeing as the only case on hims is reliant on the Dej relationship).

While this, in my opinion, is a weaker case than suspicions on Mix(Sotty) - - I'm curious as to why:

1. Khamisa - - you've suggested I'm scum with Emp.

Make up your mind - Emp's lynch is 100% based on the mere idea that he can possibly be the wolf partner (all being baed on Dej)- - otherwise there is no case on him - - what evidence is there that he is mafia scum? That I am? That we are together?

I find that suspicious of you - - it reads that you're hungry for a lynch instead of the RIGHT lynch - the one that will help town. Are you in a rush, Khamisa?

*Note: Dej was going to be taken care of with or without the request on the board. Don't let yourselves think I hadn't sent out PM's to have actions taken in response to what he did*
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thesp states that he believes I'm town.

While I trust other people share the sentiment or accept the idea to an extent, it also makes me stress my point: I'm not being malicious saying Mix(Sotty) has to go.

The Mix case was valid and based on ACTIONS taken - - this is a person who DID something scummy (that everyone at one time has acknowledged) and not only dug themselves a hole, but abandoned the game all together.

I don't believe Sotty would have ever voted Dej and I believe that Dej (who acknowledged the validity of my case) was never going to vote Sotty.

Emp is guilty of being fragmented in text and useless to the town at best - - but I see NO evidence of him truly being wolf - - - this is entirely speculation and I've seen nobody present actually quote worthy evidence.

There is no quote worthy evidence - - Anything to be pulled up is 100% speculation on Dej's state of mind.

What Mafia will now rely on is Emp digging a hole.

There is suspicion on Emp (no case, no evidence, just suspicion, speculation, and variables) and these things are in no way good enough to lynch somone, let alone outweigh the Mix(Sotty) case - - - -

In light of this, The Mafia, unable to rely on such weak reasoning behind the wagon, must rely on Emp being incapable of defending himself.

It's a catch 22 - - How can one defend themselves against nothing but opinions and speculation? How can he defend zero evidence?

The villains will take advantage of his short and distant play - - so they can have the mislynch that puts the odds in their favor.
----------------------------------------------------
You know from my repetition that there is more than enough quotable evidence on Mix, you know how he left this game, you know how poorly he handled the debrief on his scummy hammer, you know everyone in this game has at one time or another agreed with the validity of the suspicions and the scummy nature of his actions - and you know that we never saw any true hunting/interactions between Mix and Dej (yet they both shared interests in the same people at the same time and always left eachother out of pairing speculations)

The Mix(Sotty) case is stronger.

And as I have expressed in detail what the Emp case really is - - either prove me wrong with your evidence, or rethink what you're doing to the town.

Mix(Sotty) - - stronger, more valid case.
Emp - - weak, speculations based on unqualified opinions on Dej's state of mind, no quoted evidence, no questions directed to the non-existent evidence, just a bunch of people taking advantage of Emp's playstyle by making him seem like scum while he is incapable of defending himself (against nothing!).

This isn't complicated - This is accurate - - and I believe that in what will be a very long process to have the lynch moved to Sotty, the scum will reveal themselves.

(not to say I'm not on to you guys alread )

** I'd like to see the Emp case with included evidence that is quote based and not based on speculation - - - and heck, lets see it from everyone.

After all - - you just pust someone at L-1.

Surely, caring about the town at this crucial and important voting time, you all have a case.....right?

I respectfully disagree.

[Thesp]

AA23, which do you think is more likely for scum to do: (A) Aggressively oppose the lynch of their partner; or (B) Ignore pressure on their partner, hope it goes away, and steer it elsewhere?

AA23, did you answer this in your wall of text? I missed it.

[Thesp]

It's not a matter of what scum would do, it's a matter of what people have done.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. This is an ineffective way of playing mafia.

We've reached an impasse. I am trying to deduce who is scum based on if people are acting more like scum would act. You apparently think this approach is misguided. Consequently, it doesn't matter much what I say (and have said), you're going to disagree with me and I with you. If you'd like to discuss this point further, I'd be happy to, but this is the crix of our difference - consequently, my discussions on how Empking and dejkha's interaction is more consistent with how scum act will be (and have been) menaningless to you.

(Are you really suggesting that I nor anyone else has made a case against Empking? What qualifies as a "case" to you?)

[Thesp]

I'm going to try to get a good post in here today or tomorrow, but work is crazy right now and I'm packing for Flayming Man. I will definitely be on V/LA from Wednesday afternoon, July 1st through Sunday, July 5th. I'm not forgetting about you all, I promise!

[Thesp]

Just a quick post on the road from my wife's Treo - I should be able to post significantly tomorrow night. (See the Flayming Man thread in General Discussion for where I've been.) Thanks for your patience with me, I certainly haven't forgotten about you.

[Thesp]

Specific requests that I'd like responses to are color-coded. Requests in

indigo are for AA23

,

red are for Empking

, and

green are for hewitt

.

Now, on to business.

---

I'm suggesting I'd like to see it laid out with more support than theoretical variables.

Can you explain what in the Empking case was "theoretical variables"?

(I ask because I think you are using dismissive words that have no relevance to the actual thing at hand.)

You know Thesp, for someone that heavily considered the Mix wagon, hopped on it now and then, discussed it, voted for it top of the day regardless of the replacements response - - you're quick to dismiss it.

I'm not dismissive of the Sotty7/Mixologist wagon - far from it, I think there's a lot of validity to it, and he's certainly second likeliest after Empking, and I think there's compelling reason to think specifically Empking is dejkha's partner. I am a little surprised that this would be a black-and-white issue to

anyone

in the game.

What do you think of Empking entering today asserting that your interactions with dejkha appeared to be "bussing"?

(So help me, if you say "That's just Empking being Empking", I will beat you about the face with a wet noodle, then cry and cry and cry that you are refusing to try to get useful interactions from Empking.)

(I have something to say on Empking's push today on AA23, but I want respnoses from AA23 and Empking first.)

Ah yes - because you've realized at this time how much a mislynch will benefit you.

I'm confused, are you trying to suggest that Sotty7/Mixologist is my partner

and

dejkha's partner?

@Thesp - please do respond to my query. Why so much investment in the Mix case only to abandon it when he is connected to Dej (suspected). Did persuing the wagon seem like a cold trail when an easy mislynch on Emp came up?

Sort of a loaded way to ask the question, don't you think?

I took a step back, looked at dejkha's interactions with everyone, and noted that his interactions with Empking were particularly unusual and likeliest to come from a partnership relationship. I then examined Empking, and found a similar partnership indication reciprocated. That gives me pause. I'm with you that Sotty7/Mixologist is super likely scum - I'm not convinced as you seemingly are that he's dejkha's partner.

---

Dej only gets me lynched if you or AA are dupporting him. That's not the case here.. So its not out of chatracter. Its in character.

And this even strikes me as out of character for Empking. I don't think I've ever had him give me a "rational" response without just calling me scum or saying I'm lying. I'm not sure what you're implying though, that dejkha needed me or AA23 on his side to start a bandwagon against you? I doubt that, considering I was not an influential enough player early on this game to be needed. He probably could have easily used me as a pawn.

However, AA23 I actually trust that you're right on this one so...

Unvote, Vote: Sotty7

I'm confused, are you suggesting that you think Empking is acting scummy, then unvoting him?

---

AA23, what do you think it says of Sotty7 that he had the opportunity to hammer Empking today, and chose not to?

(IIRC)

---

Dej only gets me lynched if you or AA are dupporting him. That's not the case here.. So its not out of chatracter. Its in character.

And this even strikes me as out of character for Empking. I don't think I've ever had him give me a "rational" response without just calling me scum or saying I'm lying.

Well at least that's in character.

Unvote

AA is acting very town today.

What's different about today than previous days? I'd like you to be specific, feel free to quote as necessary.

---

1. Isn't it odd that he would acknowledge Mix's hammer as scummy, dirty? That he would admit Mix lied? That he would note Mix lurking, and not

persue

it? He admittedly stated he wanted nothing to do with the wagon

I agree that it's a bit odd. I'm not as convinced that it's odder than his treatment of Empking. (see below)

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

(For the record, I

hate

the edited-in vote count, though I didn't realize it until now. It is impossible to quickly search through vote counts.)

***This is why I feel the Mix(Sotty) case is still alive and worth persuing. I think that only mafiascum are interested in a mislynch for the day (proven in my early scenario post)*****

I missed where this was in any way "proven". However much I may or may not disagree, I strongly, strongly oppose arguing the ideal scum strategy at this point in public, and unless I can be convinced it would be wised, I'm refraining to do so.

Dej was a wolf that proved he indeed wanted easy lynches - - then he flat out said he was saving Emp for later (hello??)

I'm not sure why this indicates dejkha was actually intending an Empking lynch, rather than continuing to stall making any actual push towards an Empking lynch.

---

I don't think I believe that anymore so I switched my vote over to you.

Any particular reason?

---

I would have found it odd that someone would suspect the person they replaced to begin with (followed by zero defense, WIFOM, and pleas to emotion)

Why is that odd?

I'm not sure what else they would do in such a situation, whether scum or not.

---

So wait. Sotty7 what are you reasonings for suspecting me as one of the top two wolf probabilities?

Basically I don't think you have done nearly enough to hunt scum, you have been almost as absent as emp. Plus you agreed with my Percy case when I first replaced in then seemed to throw dirt on it later in the day because you “forgot”. Quiet inconstant. I will also say, the modkill request sits off with me, hard to put into words.

I entirely disagree with this, at least in part because I can see the desire for it - I wanted to ask for a dejkha modkill, but didn't think it was in my place to do so (and I think such requests are better served via PM to the mod), but I think that's a game theory point more than anything. I don't think this is indicative of him being scum. (I think there are other reasons to think this.)

---

AA this logic doesn't work. You think everyone off my wagon is scum, but why would scum want to save a wolf? That makes no sense. Scum want the wolf dead just as much as anyone. You are trying to pressure people to jump onto the wagon with you by throwing weak suspicion over them all.

It's scummy.

Why would they want to save a wolf?

That has been explained in detail, Sotty, and everyone, including you, agreed with post 803

This is post 803.
I see how it argues that the wolves likely didn't care about any theories you had, or discrediting you, or anything to that effect, and they were likely most interested in nightkilling the person they'd be least likely to be able to lynch. I don't see

anything

as to why the mafia would care about who would be lynched.

Am I looking at the wrong post?

(Looks like Sotty7 beats me to this.) (Then AA23 doesn't address it.)

---

Thesp: You do I find most suspicious? You do I find town?

Huh? (Can you re-phrase? I'm obviously not getting something here.)

I don't know if this was ever clarified -

what in the world did you mean by this post?

Also,

Empking, can you explain how the dejkha/AA23 interaction appeared to be bussing to you?

[Thesp]

Kham - in an early post, I make it clear why understandably, Mafia were prioritizing a mislynch over a werewolf lynch today - - it makes the odds play in their favor VERY much.

Can you repost it rather than stating you've already said it? (That will help me understand where you're coming from more.) I think that line of thought is incredibly wrong. (I know that would not be my priority as mafia in this scenario.)

Thesp - - my final statement on Emp is that he is not partners with Dej. I feel their relationship was characteristic.
I also feel any case on him is theoretical and airy because I've yet to see any EVIDENCE brought up against him (the evidence I asked you for....) - - - It's a bunch of "I think" statements based on little to nothing - - whereas the Mix/Sotty case is based on the scumhammer and interaction with Dej.

I'm sorry, you keep saying this, but you haven't addressed what people have said:

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

Can you address this? I think this is the heart of the Empking line of thought. You keep insisting that no evidence has been brought - are you suggesting that the quoted text here is factually incorrect, have you overlooked it, or is it something else? I'm terribly confused.

Can you also show me where dejkha pursued Empking with any real sense of pursuit? I missed your response to this.

[Thesp]

Thesp - you're asking me to point out where Dejkha persued Emp with "any real sense of persuit" - -

I'm not qualified to say the sate of his mind, and I'm suspicious that you would stoop to a loaded question - - I felt they were characteristic because of his BEHAVIOR toward him - Not for persuit.

I'm not asking you to divine dejkha's state of mind. I'm looking at you to make your best guess at dejkha's state of mind based on his actions towards Empking throughout the game. (That's how we play mafia, right?) I'm asking you to pretty please find an instance where dejkha made actions that were actually likely to lead to the lynch of Empking. You have stated on multiple occasions that you don't think Empking is scum with dejkha because of the hostility dejkha exhibited towards Empking. I am asserting that dejkha's hostility was staged and insubstantial, and there was no actual threat to Empking from dejkha. I am furthermore asking you to back up your assertion that dejkha exhibited actual hostility (from a game standpoint, not from being-a-jerk standpoint) towards Empking. It is this precise dichotomy, that dejkha pretends to be hostile to Empking without

actually

being hostile, that is characteristic among scumpartners and a significant (but not sole) indicator of Empking's partnership with dejkha.

And it is YOU who have failed to address needed issues - like posting that evidence clearly on Emp. Still haven't forgotten about that.

Thesp - - my final statement on Emp is that he is not partners with Dej. I feel their relationship was characteristic.
I also feel any case on him is theoretical and airy because I've yet to see any EVIDENCE brought up against him (the evidence I asked you for....) - - - It's a bunch of "I think" statements based on little to nothing - - whereas the Mix/Sotty case is based on the scumhammer and interaction with Dej.

I'm sorry, you keep saying this, but you haven't addressed what people have said:

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

Can you address this? I think this is the heart of the Empking line of thought. You keep insisting that no evidence has been brought - are you suggesting that the quoted text here is factually incorrect, have you overlooked it, or is it something else? I'm terribly confused.

---

And for the cheap seats since clicking back is difficult - - Post 807 with the edit included

When you are condescending, I get the impression that you don't actually want to convince anyone, you just want to be superior. (Also note that you said repeatedly that it was in post

803

that the argument was, and it has been pointed out to you multiple times that post 803 had nothing to do with this argument. I wish you had clarified this some time ago.)

Mafia have better odds of winning with a mislynch.

I still disagree with this, pretty strongly. If I was mafia and lynched a townie today, I'd have no control over the nightkill, which is more likely headed towards someone who appears mafiaish (like hewitt). In fact, with successive townie lynches, it's quite likely that mafia would

lose

, as the wolf is hunting them exclusively now.

It's also absurd to think that, should we lynch incorrectly today and the wolf not nightkill (???) as you've suggested, that everyone would blindly rush onto whomever we thought was a wolf - that makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm also disturbed by the assumption that you believe Empking is town. In fact, your entire argument is based on this fact. How reasonable an assumption do you think this is?

Also, you still haven't answered:

What do you think of Empking coming out today and suggesting that your interaction with dejkha was bussing?

What do you think of the fact that Sotty7 did not hammer Empking when he had the chance?

[Thesp]

Given how passionate Dej was about calling people "Liar" and using "Lurking" as a reason on his heavier wagons,

1. Why would Dej, more than once, acknowledge that Mix(Sotty) was

lurking, lying, and scummy for the hammer

yet do nothing about it?

Isn't that a little bit odd?
That he would be (as he SAID SO HIMSELF) - AGAINST the wagon?

Why defend, and hate on a wagon so much, yet acknowledge all of those things?

That didn't gain a vote, that didn't gain an FoS - it didn't lead to anything in BEHAVIOR (more importantly)*

I agree that it's a bit odd. I also believe that it possible for someone to think someone has done something that is scummy, yet still think they are town for other reasons. (I think in this instance he thought Sotty7 was town (which I disagree with), and didn't want to be on yet another townie wagon.)

---

Unless someone can PLEASE for crying out loud - post the EMP CASE.

...

I genuinely want to read the Emp case, and nobody wants to post it.

...

POST - YOUR - CASE - ALREADY

At this point, I am really torn as to whether or not you are paying attention, or you are simply ignoring (consciously or unconsciously) things you don't agree with or want to read. I'm serious.

I'm sorry, you keep saying this, but you haven't addressed what people have said:

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

Can you address this? I think this is the heart of the Empking line of thought. You keep insisting that no evidence has been brought - are you suggesting that the quoted text here is factually incorrect, have you overlooked it, or is it something else? I'm terribly confused.

[Thesp]

Also, I have to laugh at AA continually not answering questions. At least he isn't just blowing me off, he is an equal opportunity ignorer.

I know, I need to learn to just let it go. It's just so hard to do that near the endgame.

[Thesp]

AA23, I'm still a bit uncertain why you keep saying "THERE IS NO CASE ON EMPKING THAT ANYONE HAS PRESENTED RAWROMGNOMNOMNOM" when I have posted the following a number of times, and you refuse to acknowledge it. I will no longer respond to you with anything but the attached until you give it some serious thought. I really should spend my time and energy addressing everyone else, as you make it increasingly clear you have no desire to consider other options, but I'm troubled by the fact that I think everyone else (save Khamisa, who apparently agrees with me) is scum.

I'm sorry, you keep saying this, but you haven't addressed what people have said:

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

Can you address this? I think this is the heart of the Empking line of thought. You keep insisting that no evidence has been brought - are you suggesting that the quoted text here is factually incorrect, have you overlooked it, or is it something else? I'm terribly confused.

---

Empking, I will answer your question a bit later when I have some time. (I must admit I'm not in a terrible hurry to convince you, but I will indeed answer you.)


(One thing I do feel the need to respond to of AA23's:)

A

mis

lynch guaruntees Mafia either a definite win, or Lylo for town.

Fixed this for you.

[Thesp]

Thesp - that little edit of yours -

before you go looking rather silly: do you want to do the math on what happens if there is NO mislynch? If we DO lynch the werewolf?

Werewolf getting lynched means 3/2 town over scum tomorrow with no NK's.

Pretty good situation seeing as you're the runner up Mafiascum that I'm immediately voting.

Lynching the werewolf puts us in Lynch or Lose. (Yes, I have done the math.) Lynching a mafia puts us in lynch or lose, regardless of who the nightkill hits. Lynching a townie puts us in lynch or lose if the nightkill hits mafia (whom the wolf would be gunning for).

Also,

I'm sorry, you keep saying this, but you haven't addressed what people have said:

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

Can you address this? I think this is the heart of the Empking line of thought. You keep insisting that no evidence has been brought - are you suggesting that the quoted text here is factually incorrect, have you overlooked it, or is it something else? I'm terribly confused.

[Thesp]

This is the stalemate.

They want this - - - they want someone to get ansy and say "f*** it" and move to kill

Emp

Sotty7 or something to get a move on.

Fixed for you.

Also,

I'm sorry, you keep saying this, but you haven't addressed what people have said:

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

Can you address this? I think this is the heart of the Empking line of thought. You keep insisting that no evidence has been brought - are you suggesting that the quoted text here is factually incorrect, have you overlooked it, or is it something else? I'm terribly confused.

[Thesp]

This is the stalemate.

They want this - - - they want someone to get ansy and say "f*** it" and move to kill

Emp

Sotty7 or something to get a move on.

Fixed for you.

Also,

I'm sorry, you keep saying this, but you haven't addressed what people have said:

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

Can you address this? I think this is the heart of the Empking line of thought. You keep insisting that no evidence has been brought - are you suggesting that the quoted text here is factually incorrect, have you overlooked it, or is it something else? I'm terribly confused.

[Thesp]

Sorry for the double-post - the forum's acting a bit odd for me this morning.

[Thesp]

Thesp if you're mafia and not with Sotty, you should vote soctty.

Even if I was mafia, I'm not sure I should trust your advice. (Any particular reason the advice is specific to me being mafia as opposed to being a wolf?)

I think there's a reasonable chance Sotty7 is scum; I think there's a more reasonable chance you are specifically a wolf with dejkha. I'm a little surprised there isn't even consideration of this possiblity by AA23, and that hewitt is suddenly so resolute about it. I'm also given a little pause by the fact that the other two people on the Sotty7 wagon are people I suspect as being scum.

I want to hear more from hewitt. There's a lot to talk about, hewitt, and I don't think you've done very much lately. I'm tired of hearing from just myself and AA23.

[Thesp]

Thesp if you're mafia and not with Sotty, you should vote soctty.

Even if I was mafia, I'm not sure I should trust your advice. (Any particular reason the advice is specific to me being mafia as opposed to being a wolf?)

As the mafia has less to lose.

Thesp, are you suspicious of me because Djhka reacted to me like Dejhka always reacts with me. Or that Dejhka was leaving me alive because I suck really bad?

Dejkha made a big deal of saying he wanted to lynch you, but made no actual significant movement towards you. When given the opportunity, he had to be

pushed

into voting for you. The moment he could plausibly do so (when Percy unvoted), he left the wagon. These actions are

incredibly consistent

with how partners interact in-thread - they want to appear as though they are willing to lynch their partner scum, while in reality it is the last thing they want to do.

There are other things that give me great concern about you in the past couple of days, including your lack of hunting/participation when suspicion and concern largely came off you, and your bizarre entry into today attacking AA23 for bussing (which I cannot in my wildest dreams fathom) which appears to be testing the waters as to who is lynchable and who is not. It is Percy's interaction with you specifically, however, that makes me think you're scum with him.

(AA23 has mentioned that dejkha aggressively opposed the Mixologist/Sotty7 wagon, which I concur with. However, in my experience, scum rarely aggressively oppose the lynch of their partners, preferring to redirect attention or offhandedly act dismissive of the wagon.)

Can you talk to me about the Sotty7/Mixologist wagon, Empking or hewitt? It appears AA23 and I must agree to disagree about it, as we think different things indicate scum relationships.

[Thesp]

Can you point me to any similar examples? I'd be happy to see them.

[Thesp]

I'll try to take some time this evening to read through these games. (It may be this weekend before I can get to them, but we'll see.)

[Thesp]

There are quotations of him saying that if you need, but I assure you that's the reason he didn't full throttle it to Emp.

I'm not sure how you can assure me of that. Furthermore, if he's "saving" the wagon, it looks like he wants to be anti-Empking, without actually threatening Empking. This fits perfectly into them being partners.

And winking about "even if you were mafia", how would killing sotty help you? - - The answer is that it wouldn't. Sotty is the remaining wolf. Having one more NK benefits the Mafia.

I disagree with this, quite strongly. Mafia can easily (and I would argue more probably) lose the game

without being lynched

if there's still a nightkill. Same for the town.

It is in the town and the mafia's best interest to eliminate the last wolf.

The only power the mafia has to eliminate its enemies is the lynch. Same for the town. This is the prime advantage the werewolves have, is that they can also eliminate its enemies independent of the town.

Neither the town nor the mafia want the werewolf alive anymore.

I would even argue that the mafia

especially

want the werewolf dead, because at this point, the werewolf is actively trying to nightkill them over townies! As long as the werewolf lives, both/either side can lose through no volition of its own.

AA23, you've implied it with your theories, but never by confirming elsewise - do you think Empking is town?

[Thesp]

I feel that Empking is not the werewolf.

I feel werewolf is the priority lync for today.

I agree with you that we should try to lynch the werewolf today, I disagree with you as to who the werewolf is.

You've still dodged the question, though - do you think Empking is a townie?

I think we have to agree to disagree about some things - I think scum rarely actively oppose the lynch of their partners, and while we agree that dejkha actively opposed the Sotty7/Mixologist lynch, you seem to think this is normative for scum to act this way towards their partners. On this, I think you are incorrect.

I think you're trying to soften the platform so you can switch to the Sotty wagon with no consequence.

It looks to me that you're not trying to persuade me, you're just content to lob volleys at me. After all, you seem to be putting me in a scenario where if I stay I'm scum, but if I switch I'm scum, no?

[Thesp]

There is no dodging the question for me - - Emp is not the wolf.

That

is

dodging the question - do you think he's scum? (You've already made it fairly obvious that you think he's not the werewolf.)

[Thesp]

For a moment, I thought you were reading what I was saying. I am disappointed that this appears not to be the case. (Notably, I'm surprised you keep saying I haven't brought forth a case on Empking.)

It's clear we disagree on some fundamental tells. Yelling back and forth about them won't help. (I need to remind myself of this.)

I believe I owe Empking an answer to something previous, but it will have to wait a little bit - I want to devote some serious time to it that I likely won't have until the weekend. I'm going to try and actively ignore AA23 for a while, as I think our back-and-forth is actually damaging to other players' abilities to read the game well.

/ignore AA23

I particularly want to hear more from hewitt.

[Thesp]

It's a stalemate now. That's my opinion. I think it's pretty well figured out and the mafia are smart enough to not fall for the town's trap.

And here's how, assuming this is true then the stalemate makes sense and everything about why Sotty7 isn't gaining a fourth vote makes sense.

Sotty7 is the werewolf. He's got three votes on him from the town players, myself, AA23, and Empking. Which leaves Khamisa and Thesp as the mafia. If one of the mafia players vote Sotty7 they automatically lose because they have no nightkills and we will lynch them the next two days.

This post makes me want to vote for you soooooo bad.

Seriously? Why do the mafia not want to lynch the werewolf?

Why do you think Sotty7 is scum? (I want to hear it from your words.)

Vote Count

Sotty7 3 - AA23, hewitt, Empking
Empking 3 - Khamisa, Thesp, Sotty7

Sotty7 is -1
Empking is -1

[Thesp]

And hewitt/Empking, what did you think of Sotty7 not hammering Empking when he had the chance?

[Thesp]

First before I answer your questions Thesp does that not makes sense? If you two are the mafia you can't win, because we will lynch you. Does that hypothesis not make sense?

Under the assumptions that we're both mafia and that you'd then lynch us, perhaps, but that is nowhere near certain. I'm still not convinced that mafia wouldn't want to lynch the werewolf - quite the opposite, in fact!

Do you think a mafia death (as opposed to a werewolf death) would be worthwhile? (That's what I'm pondering at this moment - I'm beginning to think it's even

more

in the mafia's interest to lynch the wolf at the moment, so it may be more worthwhile to lynch mafia.)

[Thesp]

A mafia death for the town would not be helpful for the town under the assumption that said players above are who they are. If the wolf is dead the town has complete control of the town and can finish the game off. A mafia death would be stupid right now opposed to a wolf lynch. That's why the mafia doesn't want to lynch the wolf and don't play the dumb act because I'm sure you realized this way before I did.

What about under the presumption that Sotty7 is mafia? (That's the presumption I'm working under.)

[Thesp]

Obviously. If Sotty7 turned out to be mafia, would that be bad for us?

And please tell AA23 that I'm not speaking to him.

[Thesp]

It's not fun, it's not cleaver, it's irritating and you are the black hole of this game, sucking all the fun and actual playability that surrounds this game we all like to play. More often than not, your posts are full of such double talk and ridiculous leaps and conclusions that I find it hard that anyone takes what you say seriously. Thesp is already ignoring you and I am pretty damn close to doing that. Do you really think this way of playing helps you? Regardless of your alignment people not listening to you is detrimental.

QFT.

[Thesp]

I think AA is town.

Sotty: If you flipped town then I would read the game and cose out of the non-shewiits.

I agree on the first.

What does "cose out of the non-shewiits" mean? I'm not familiar with that phrase.

[Thesp]

Err no. Are you being silly on purpose?

I'm saying you have no case on me being a wolf. I have shown that.

I am also saying that you have all but admitted that I can't be scum.

Quoting your own BS doesn't prove anything apart from your own bullheadedness.

You're never going to get anywhere with him while he's acting like this. It may help to stop playing Sisyphus. Just ignore him until he goes away (or at least until he stops re-posting walls of useless rehashes of what he's already said, regardless of whether or not it's sensical). I'm enjoying the game more by doing it. It may be more constructive to talk to other people.

Actually, looking at the rules, a straightforward interpretation implies that after a deadline, we'd lynch

both

Sotty7 and Empking. I'm down for that.

[Thesp]

It's a thought but I will wait to see what Thesp has to say. I can't see how a double lynch will help anyone but the scum at this point.

Lynching a wolf

and

mafia would be double-plus good. I don't see how it helps anyone but town. (On the other hand, I can see where it might be worthwhile to see what the alignment of the first lynchee was before proceeding - it you turned out to be townie, I would want the wolf kill to hit scum before we lynched them.) Of course, ThAdmiral has mooted this.

*Sighs* I don't even know where to begin with that question.

I don't find this terribly surprising.

Just to clear up some stuff...

Firstly I don't remember setting a deadline, but just in case I did consider it extended indefinitely.

Ugh. Please, for the love of all that is good and holy, set some sort of deadline so this game will end. There is no reason for this day to drag on further than it has. (For the record, I am a little surprised at the deadline lynch policy change. It would have been worthwhile to know that the priority of votes mattered well before people were voting today.)

This is a fair comment and I will be sure to make the rules clear in any other games I host.

For crying out loud.

I am not asking Hewitt to present a case, I am asking him simply why he is voting me over emp.

Are you still reading AA23's posts? The game is much better if you don't. I'm serious.

(If anyone else is actually reading AA23's posts and thinks I need to be aware of something he said, please quote it for me and let me know.)

I still haven't gotten to read those games, Empking, I'm going to try to tomorrow night.

[Thesp]

I want a deadline.

:hifive:

[Thesp]

And I want people named Hewitt and Kham to play the game a little more.

Agreed.

[Thesp]

I'm 100% not unvoting soooo yeah unless Empking or AA23 plans on unvoting somebody might as well hammer you and not drag this out for a nother week.

I missed where you explained why you thought Sotty7 was a better lynch than Empking (other than your "I think AA23 was right" post, which is still baffling). Can you explain? It looks like you've been evading justifying your actions.

[Thesp]

At this point it doesn't even matter because the scum know they've been caught and it really would be just easier for all of us if you just ended it yourself. If I were scum I'd probably be doing the same thing you're doing and trying to draw it out til the end but you've got to realize by know that you're over.

said the scum.

I think this will be worth noting tomorrow.

This game has rapidly reached "super unfun".

[Thesp]

Let's think about it this way for a second Sotty7/Thesp/khamisa. I'm confirmed town. And I'm confirmed town because that's what I received as my role. There are two mafia and one wolf in this game along with two other town. Are you trying to tell me that I'm on a wagon with two mafia? Who won't hammer and win? Or are you trying to tell me that one mafia is with me and one mafia is with you guys.

I'm not asking you to switch sides. I'm asking you to justify your position.

I'm pretty appalled by how many people don't stop to consider that they might be wrong about something.

(Also, can you see how "I'm town because I know I'm town" might be a little ridiculous to others?)

[Thesp]

Thesp I'm asking you to see it from my perspective.

I am trying to do so. I don't see how you can believe Empking and AA23 to be town so very, very much that you're ignoring what others are asking of you. It's disconcerting.

[Thesp]

THESP! I am asking you if you think it's plausible that I, as a town player, am voting with two mafia, one mafia and one town, or one wolf and one town.

I think it's incredibly

likely

. (I have stated so - I think Empking is a wolf, at the least.)

[Thesp]

THESP! I am asking you if you think it's plausible that I, as a town player, am voting with two mafia, one mafia and one town, or one wolf and one town.

I think it's incredibly

likely

. (I have stated so - I think Empking is a wolf, at the least.)

Also, who else would Empking vote for if he's a wolf? For realz?

[Thesp]

Who else would Sotty7 vote for if he's the wolf?

I agree that both are plausible for being wolf. (I think Empking is likelier.) I do not understand how you seem to conclude that it is impossible for anyone but Sotty7 to be the wolf, and Khamisa and I to be mafia. Can you help me understand that?

[Thesp]

It basically just comes down to your three's attitude vs. AA23's attitude. I don't really know how else to explain it. This whole entire game it's just been AA23 who's been so pro-town in my opinion and running the game just like when I was scum in another game (if you want the game I'll have to go look it up) and I got caught in the end. Empking is a little iffier though I will give you that.

Fair enough. (I wish you had come out with something like this sooner!)

Unvote: Empking, Vote: Sotty7

And I'm trusting all of you that AA23 didn't say anything I needed to read, because no one quoted him for me.

[Thesp]

Thank you for putting me out of my misery Thesp.

I'm sorry I can't yet join you.

[Thesp]

WOOHOO!!!!!

AA23, are you willing to listen to what people have to say today? I really don't want to ignore you today, I think today is too important.

Vote count

Nothing yet...

[Thesp]

Thesp - this in no way proves your innocence and I will never take my suspicion of you being Mafia away - - you're a villain in my books.

There was nothing wong with the Sotty lynch. The evidence was there, the defenses were weak, and there was no alternative case. On top of which, the players in action were ignorant and emotional - - this unfortunate towny death was a result of people not being able to handle the pressure and form a more appropriate case. I stand by that. The Sotty case was sound.

That having been said, I'll be back with the results of my re-read later - I'm V/LA for a couple days

So should I take this as a "no"?

I'm not suggesting in any way that this "proves" or verifies myself as pro-town in any way. I am suggesting that it indicates that perhaps you should listen to what other people have to say, as they may have insights into things that you may or may not see. You continually ignored*

reasonable

suggestions that there were indications that Sotty7 was specifically not a member of dejkha's group. To suggest today that there was

nothing wrong

with the Sotty7 lynch is downright scary.

If you're not going to take into account what other people say, there's really no point in playing with you. You are a burden to the town in every way and have played incredibly anti-town, and it makes me distraught that I think you are a townie. I'm almost at the point that I hope we lose (if indeed I am correct about your alignment).

I need to go back and take a look at Empking and hewitt to see which one I think is more likely to be scum. I'm not going to ignore AA23 in this, either. I need to ensure I'm not tunnelvisioning in any direction.

hewitt, who else do you think is scum? Do you think Empking is specifically a wolf? This is important. I don't want to spend all day with you dodging questions again.

* It would be one thing if you had read what people said about the Sotty7 wagon and other people, you had considered what they said with respect, then disagreed. This does not appear to be what you have done.

[Thesp]

Open 134 - Dejkha has support so he sticks on me.

Mini 757 - Dejkha has no support so he lreaves me.

Also, I read through these two games, and I don't think they really offer the sort of insight you're suggesting they do. In Open 134, dejkha's participation lasts an entirety of 17 hours, which doesn't seem long enough to get a good sampling of his behavior. In Mini 757, he seems to be deliberate and thoughtful on the game, and doesn't even bring you up much outside of the beginning. It's a stark contrast to this game where he continually mentions you.

[Thesp]

I apologize for the forthcoming wall, but I think it's necessary.

Thesp - - you're telling me I should listen to what other people have to say.

The other people are two suspected scum, and the person who was targetted by the wagon - - and they had

nothing

to say.

I asked repeatedly for the Emp case, all I got was whining. It's one thing to say and preach, it is another to prove. This game required proof.

You're insane. Here's "proof".

Yesterday, a number of times, people said things which directly related to why they thought Empking was potentially scum, and specifically scum with dejkha:

Actually, if there's any "bussing", dejkha looks like he's anti-

you

the whole time, but never puts forth a serious attack on you, votes you only when goaded by Percy on it, and hops off your wagon the moment Percy leaves it. It looks far more like dejkha wanted to look like he was hostile towards you, while not doing anything to seriously threaten your survival.

Unvote: Sotty7.

Empking may be the better play today. I need to re-read.

Actually, if there's any "bussing", dejkha looks like he's anti-

you

the whole time, but never puts forth a serious attack on you, votes you only when goaded by Percy on it, and hops off your wagon the moment Percy leaves it. It looks far more like dejkha wanted to look like he was hostile towards you, while not doing anything to seriously threaten your survival.

Unvote: Sotty7.

Empking may be the better play today. I need to re-read.

Very much this. I think emp could be the play today.

The whole dejkha was bussing AA thing is absolutely stupid in my opinion. I agree the dejkha was anti-Empking without setting up a serious attack on him. I'm pretty sure Empking is his partner.

Vote: Empking

Right now, I'm targetting Sotty with more tangable evidence attached to educated reasoning and logical application (basically, existing "hard" evidece starting with the dirty hammer, and me attaching it to theory)

Whereas the Emp notion is purely speculation and theory that is

void

of substantial evidence to the degree upon Sotty.

...

I cannot urge this enough - - - Mix(Sotty) is the more appropriate candidate for a lynch - his case is based on suspicion, theory, and actually actions that indicate not only villain, but through relationships, that he is wolf. Emp is purely thoughts and air - - speculation.

It seems a little naive to suggest that the case against Sotty7 is the only case with sound reasoning behind it. One of the strongest aspects of it is that dejkha talks about Empking in a hostile manner the whole game, yet seems to try to avoid having anything substantive come about from it. In fact, he relies on his "meta" of hating Emp to show hostility, which couples as a mild deterrent to anyone else getting on an Empking wagon, since dejkha's reasoning is

prima facie

crap. Furthermore, Empking never makes any significant push towards dejkha, and in the past few days has been getting more and more irrational and reclusive.

I'm having a hard time how you see that as "purely speculation and theory that is

void

of substantial evidence to the degree upon Sotty". I don't think that's intellectually responsible.

AA23, which do you think is more likely for scum to do: (A) Aggressively oppose the lynch of their partner; or (B) Ignore pressure on their partner, hope it goes away, and steer it elsewhere?

(Note: AA23, you never answered this.) (Actually, rereading further, you did, with "every circumstance is different", which is a crap answer and antithetical to finding scum while playing mafia. Nevermind.)

Honestly I don't have hard evidence on why Empking is a wolf. However, I believe the way dejkha acted towards Empking was shockingly out of character and implies a scum connection. I thought this before dejkha was modkilled and I'm reinforced by that with the knowledge that dejkha was a wolf. The weak pursuit against Empking and quick abandonment by dejkha showed to me scum who is attempting to not make ties with his scum partner but it was so out of character with how he normally reacts to Empking that I can't ignore it. I agree, AA23, that the Sotty case is strong and compelling. But I'm much more convinced that Empking is scum than Sotty at the moment.

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

Thesp - - my final statement on Emp is that he is not partners with Dej. I feel their relationship was characteristic.
I also feel any case on him is theoretical and airy because I've yet to see any EVIDENCE brought up against him (the evidence I asked you for....) - - - It's a bunch of "I think" statements based on little to nothing - - whereas the Mix/Sotty case is based on the scumhammer and interaction with Dej.

I'm sorry, you keep saying this, but you haven't addressed what people have said:

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

Can you address this? I think this is the heart of the Empking line of thought. You keep insisting that no evidence has been brought - are you suggesting that the quoted text here is factually incorrect, have you overlooked it, or is it something else?

I'm terribly confused.

Can you also show me where dejkha pursued Empking with any real sense of pursuit? I missed your response to this.

Thesp - you're asking me to point out where Dejkha persued Emp with "any real sense of persuit" - -

I'm not qualified to say the sate of his mind, and I'm suspicious that you would stoop to a loaded question - - I felt they were characteristic because of his BEHAVIOR toward him - Not for persuit.

I'm not asking you to divine dejkha's state of mind. I'm looking at you to make your best guess at dejkha's state of mind based on his actions towards Empking throughout the game. (That's how we play mafia, right?) I'm asking you to pretty please find an instance where dejkha made actions that were actually likely to lead to the lynch of Empking. You have stated on multiple occasions that you don't think Empking is scum with dejkha because of the hostility dejkha exhibited towards Empking. I am asserting that dejkha's hostility was staged and insubstantial, and there was no actual threat to Empking from dejkha. I am furthermore asking you to back up your assertion that dejkha exhibited actual hostility (from a game standpoint, not from being-a-jerk standpoint) towards Empking. It is this precise dichotomy, that dejkha pretends to be hostile to Empking without

actually

being hostile, that is characteristic among scumpartners and a significant (but not sole) indicator of Empking's partnership with dejkha.

Thesp if you're mafia and not with Sotty, you should vote soctty.

Even if I was mafia, I'm not sure I should trust your advice. (Any particular reason the advice is specific to me being mafia as opposed to being a wolf?)

As the mafia has less to lose.

Thesp, are you suspicious of me because Djhka reacted to me like Dejhka always reacts with me. Or that Dejhka was leaving me alive because I suck really bad?

Dejkha made a big deal of saying he wanted to lynch you, but made no actual significant movement towards you. When given the opportunity, he had to be

pushed

into voting for you. The moment he could plausibly do so (when Percy unvoted), he left the wagon. These actions are

incredibly consistent

with how partners interact in-thread - they want to appear as though they are willing to lynch their partner scum, while in reality it is the last thing they want to do.

There are other things that give me great concern about you in the past couple of days, including your lack of hunting/participation when suspicion and concern largely came off you, and your bizarre entry into today attacking AA23 for bussing (which I cannot in my wildest dreams fathom) which appears to be testing the waters as to who is lynchable and who is not. It is

Percy

dejkha's interaction with you specifically, however, that makes me think you're scum with him.

You never did address whether you thought this was factually incorrect, whether you'd overlooked it, or if it was something else.

---

Then, AA23, you repeatedly refused to answer questions that you thought might indicate anything remotely contrary to your already determined conclusion:

What do you think of Empking entering today asserting that your interactions with dejkha appeared to be "bussing"?

AA23, what do you think it says of Sotty7 that he had the opportunity to hammer Empking today, and chose not to?

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

Thesp - you're asking me to point out where Dejkha persued Emp with "any real sense of persuit" - -

I'm not qualified to say the sate of his mind, and I'm suspicious that you would stoop to a loaded question - - I felt they were characteristic because of his BEHAVIOR toward him - Not for persuit.

Awwwww - I'm sorry if you feel neglected when I don't answer LOADED QUESTIONS.

And

stop with your obvious and weak leading questions

you keep pushing this "What do you think of Sotty not hammering Emp"

---

Almost every player (notably a crapload of confirmed pro-town players) have said at several points in the game that they don't think you listen or appreciate other perspectives:

But the fact he won't even think about the side is enough to make my head hurt.

Hewitt, what do you think about AA ignoring all the rest of the players and just tunneling on me?

I can't say I approve of AA23's tunneling but it's been pretty consistent with his playstyle all throughout this game and it's consistent with how I've played with him before.

So yeah. By all means get off your soapbox and present more of a case so we can actually play mafia. Because right now it seems more about who's bullshit is easier to swallow with you.

It's not fun, it's not cleaver, it's irritating and you are the black hole of this game, sucking all the fun and actual playability that surrounds this game we all like to play. More often than not, your posts are full of such double talk and ridiculous leaps and conclusions that I find it hard that anyone takes what you say seriously. Thesp is already ignoring you and I am pretty damn close to doing that. Do you really think this way of playing helps you? Regardless of your alignment people not listening to you is detrimental.

The problem I see, AA, with all of your theories, is that if you hold me as scum in all of them, than you're intentionally blocking yourself from a view of the game that could be, and is, more illuminating. Because as you said, I'm doomed, no matter what happens next. You need to be prepared for the opportunity that I might, and will, flip town, so that all of your theories are not pointless when my death occurs.

Consider the other possibilities: who is incriminated if I'm innocent?

Now, I'm not saying that holding me as your One True Scum is bad, even if it is incorrect, but I'd like you to consider the other side, even if you don't change your mind on your strongest opinions (such as the ones on Empking). Your thoughts, even briefly, on the alternatives as you see them would be greatly appreciated.

The fact that you are saying that I haven't answered your question means you failed to read 440. Let me show you.

Ace is scum so bad it hurts. He is blatantly ignoring this game. Why? There is -zero- pressure on him to contribute. As long as he isn't under any pressure to contribute, he will continue to actively lurk.

Look back at the end of D1. Ace, again, was under -zero- pressure as everyone was focusing in on zwet. Percy and I, again, were the only ones voting him.

Let me say again. There is -zero- pressure on Ace to post. That is why he isn't. I'm not going to let someone who I think is scum fly under the radar. That is why I pursued Ace.

Also 440 does have questions.

The people you are accusing me of dirtly hoping behind, Ash and hewitt, are now shamelessly hoping on behind you. What do you make of that? Also, re-reading you AA, it should said that speaking in absolutes like you are concerning me actually implicate you. Saying that someone is 100% scum when you are not an investigative role implies that you have knowledge that the rest of us don't. Saying that implies that you are scum. Are you scum?

(In a quick re-read of your exchange with Mixologist, it looks eerily familiar - you kept insisting to him that he hadn't presented evidence, when indeed he had. You were arguing strenuously over the scumminess of a now-confirmed townie.)

Almost all of what you said is completely unsound. It amazes me how much time and effort you have put in to the above post. It is based on a selective view of the facts, all to make your new "hypothesis" work.

You have a theory, based on a hypothesis. It's a stupid theory, and unwarranted, stupid hypothesis. You spend more time in each post defending these ever-shifting theories in the face of obvious, rather than trying to look at the game outside of your tunnelled views. Every time you change your theory, you

demand

to be taken seriously, when you haven't shown a clear line of thought between your positions. It's like you sit at your keyboard and tap whatever floats through your brain, heedless of anything that's gone on in the game unless it confirms with whatever theory you most recently remember. You misrepresent, twist and lie your way into whatever sounds like the most convenient explanation. You are also incredibly defensive.

Yet you try to paint yourself as the best, most pro-town, logic-lovin' poster there is. And you really believe that it's true.

It makes me want to

cry

.

My impression of AA is conflicted. He has flashes of goodness but more often then not he has me shaking my head and wondering how he gets to the points he gets too. I think he twists and misreps people to suit him and his suspicions at the time instead of the other way around.

It is disrespectful when you willfully disregard what others say. This is not an isolated thought of one or two people thinking you aren't listening and these few people being scum or being emotional or playing poorly.

This is a trend.

People have consistently said that you ignore what they are saying. Now, you could write this off as a bunch of people being irrational, emotional, incorrect, or otherwise deluded. However, perhaps it would be worthwhile to sit back, take a deep breath, and ponder whether there might be some truth to what everyone is saying. I'm pretty positive that unless you change some of your ways, most of the people playing in this game are going to try and steer clear of games you're in. That's not good for you, and it's not good for the overall health of the site. I hope that when this game is done, you do some serious introspection, and consider how you might best be productive to the game.

---

That said, I also believe Empking is likeliest to be wolf.

Vote: Empking.

I'll withhold further comment until tomorrow. (Presuming there is a tomorrow.)

[Thesp]

The more substantial point you presented on Emp was the relationship with Dej. This was a double edged sword for you, because it also applied (somewhat more so) to Sotty.

You are insane. HOW??? I explicitly said that I think dejkha's explicit hostility to the Sotty7 wagon was

contraindicative

of being partners together - scum rarely vehemently oppose the wagon of their own partner. I explicitly said that how dejkha interacted with Empking was

different

- he tried to pretend to be a part of it while doing nothing to further it (and indeed, driving people away from it).

It is you, Thesp, and everyone that was on the Emp wagon yesterday, that refused to answer my question - the important one - where your Emp case was.

It's easy to flood a board with quotations and bias interpretations in an effort to confuse people who don't want to sift through it and call it bs into thinking you actually have a point - - but lets not lose sight, Thesp:

Emp's guilt today is suggested by the innocence of what was yesterday's priority suspect - - the information from that lynch allows us to now regard those past variables in a different light.
...

Which would explain why Thesp and Kham couldn't make the Emp case yesterday.

I AM FLOODING A BOARD WITH QUOTATIONS WHICH REFER TO THE CASE PRESENTED YESTERDAY IN WHICH YOU EXPLICITLY SAID THERE WAS NO CASE PRESENTED YESTERDAY. I HAVE NEVER, EVER HAD TO PLAY WITH SOMEONE AS SHORT-SIGHTED AS YOU INSIST ON BEING.

EMP'S GUILT IS NOT SUGGESTED BY SOTTY7'S INNOCENCE, IT IS SUGGESTED BY THE CRAPTON OF INFORMATION POSITED BY ME AND OTHERS (INCLUDING HEWITT) YESTERDAY, AND BY DEJKHA AND EMPKING'S INTERACTIONS.

I NOW HONESTLY HOPE THAT HEWITT IS THE WOLF AND THAT WE HAVE LOST, SO I NO LONGER HAVE TO PLAY THIS GAME. YOU HAVE BEEN WRONG AT EVERY SINGLE TURN OF THE GAME, AND YET AT EVERY TURN, YOU DOGGEDLY INSIST THAT IT'S ABSURD THAT THERE'S ANY CHANCE YOU COULD BE WRONG.

THAT IS INSANE. I'M HAVING A HARD TIME IMAGINING WHY ANYONE WOULD BE LIKE THAT. EVER.

Thesp - I made it clear that I wouldn't partake in your leading questions.

How in the world were they leading questions?

Answer: They implied something other than what you had already concluded.

If you say that no one has presented a case on Empking any more, I will cry. Everyone in the game has presented more of a case on Empking than you have. Your refusal to acknowledge it goes beyond insulting.

[Thesp]

That was pretty emotional.

Humor me with a clean cut list in bold of the Emp case points. It's such a simple and valid case as you seem to cry about - lets see the case you were certain of yesterday.

That doesn't mean it's wrong. (It would be naive and foolish to thusly dismiss it.)

Look back to the wall of quotes six posts back and read what's quoted about Empking. It's succinct and to the point. They make specific assertions about how dejkha acted with particular respect to Empking.

Then, please tell me:

(A) If you think these assertions are

factually correct or not

(that is, that you believe dejkha did or did not act in this way towards Empking), and
(B) If dejkha did indeed act this way towards Empking, whether that is a reliable indicator of partnership.

When making the "case", everyone that has stood behind it (including presumably you, given your vote today) has asserted that what is in the quotes regarding dejkha's behavior (that is, (A)) has been true, and hold that (B) follows. However, there must be some doubt to that from you, because you keep referring to the Empking "case" as "speculation" rather than based on hard facts (though you unhelpfully refused to answer the question posed to you repeatedly, as to whether or not what people posted about dejkha was factually correct or not). I think getting the answers to (A) and (B) from you will go a long ways towards that.

(This could be a big waste of time gamewise if hewitt's the wolf anyway, but I'm hoping you are still salvageable as a player beyond this game. I like your willingness to participate, but your communication in both disseminating and receiving is incredibly poor and needs work.)

[Thesp]

Vote: Thesp

Any reasoning? (I'm guessing not.)

:sigh:

[Thesp]

Vote: Thesp

I'm still curious as to the answers to the questions I posed. I'm flabbergasted as to why you won't answer.

[Thesp]

Yay town!

Crediting the game to AA is a bit rich. I think it's fair to say that we won

in spite

of AA. He made the game massively unfun for a lot of people, and his reads were almost always 100% wrong and 100% tunnelled.

I agree 1000%.

i also have to say thesp's biggest mistake was not distancing himself from khamisa and not attacking me. i think he should've been a little more focused on attacking me instead of AA23 because i think there was a bigger possibility of turning the town against me and accusing me of being the mafia instead of AA23. the mafia tried a little but not hard enough.

Perhaps. When would have been the best chance to do that?

I feel like another miscalculation was not going after Sotty7 on D4, whom I was increasingly convinced was

not

the wolf. This seems to be why AA23 went after Khamisa and I so strongly. It's somewhat bizarre - we would have loved the Sotty7 lynch (because going into D4 we thought there wasn't any way he'd be lynched with how well he was playing), but we thought eliminating the wolf's nightkill was more important. I wish I'd stuck with Sotty7 now.

I am still a bit distressed by dejkha's self-destruction - I had PMed the mod and said he needed a final warning at the very least, and am happy with the modkill. I do think it speaks volumes of this game as a whole that out of 5 scum, only 2 were lynched and the town won.

I'm curious as to the rationales for the nightkills. Empking, could you oblige us?

I wish we'd seen more out of hewitt, Empking, and khamisa, and I loved playing with Percy and Sotty7. Thank you, ThAdmiral, for cross-replacing with me.

[Thesp]

I'll also post the QT if there are no objections from scummates.

[Thesp]

And AA23, did you really think no one had made a case against Empking, or were you saying that to make people "crack"?

[Thesp]

I understood the Emp case, but wanted Thesp and Kham to crack as mafiascum

I'm still not sure what sort of response you were trying to elicit here. Were you expecting one of us to say, "Okay, we give up, we're mafia"?

I didn't bother with bullet points, because I didn't know that it could be any clearer than it already was.

[Thesp]

http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/KkVQ3fFek2u