Mini 803 - Pale Moon Risin' (Over!)

[LlamaFluff]

/confirm

[LlamaFluff]

Vote VP Baltar

[LlamaFluff]

vote: LlamaFluff

for not posting anything but a vote. Even a bad justification is better than none.

Why?

[LlamaFluff]

vote: LlamaFluff

for not posting anything but a vote. Even a bad justification is better than none.

Why?

accountability.

So I cant just make my first vote with no reasoning? If I have reasoning im going to give reasoning.

[LlamaFluff]

You could have stated you had no reason.
But a big blank spot IS suspicious.

meh, like I said, if I have reasoning behind a vote, I will lay it out

[LlamaFluff]

Since my early vote's worth has expired, I'll explain THAT one however. Those four people are the only four people in this game whom I've never played with or modded at all.

Well you took over modding a game I was in... guess that doesnt count?

54: and she backtracked in saying it is all nothing serious. I don't know what to think,

but I'll remember it.

The question pointed out the problem, there came an answer, and

I'm happy with that

.

So is it a scum tell or a null tell or what? Also the bolded seems contridictory to me.

But I don't yet want to vote zilla, till I have seen more.

So is Zilla your top pick?

VP is not really a good place for a vote yet

You say this like he has a serious vote

So, eh, I see no need to place a vote yet. Even if I know some people think that scummy

So who is scummiest though? This is why I like people to vote as it forces them to put up some suspicions.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote
Vote Zilla

unvote
Vote: Porkens

for rolefishing.

Not even close to rolefishing. You basically claimed DV early on, and judging by the last votecount, that doesnt really hold up. Also I dont really see anything wrong with a DV either claiming early either for their own benifit, and the benifit of the town as to not accidently quick lynch a player.

Later you claim it was a joke. The question is why would you jokevote a player for what is a legitimate scumtell in a majority of situations. A joke vote is based on avatar, past games, and things along that line. I dont see how you joke about this.

What's scummy about FoS/voting 4 players? Even outside of RVS?

Again this follows a lot of the above. You are saying people are scummy for attacking you over something that is scummy. When you make a joke that seems pretty serious, there is no way you should be expecting people to not be voting you over it.

I wanted to see what Plum's reaction was to me saying my Porkens vote wasn't serious, but then a page went by with no plum and tons of people basically making my question lose impact.

You're all going to accuse me of something for it, but that's okay. I actually was about 25% serious in voting for Porken based on his first reaction, 36.

If that vote was at all serious, thats just a very bad vote. Its a very obvious ability, and easily could lynch someone when someone just wanted a claim out of them. These are very double edged blades.

I do like the "case" building on me though, it's our gate out of RVS.

Just choosing a random post and calling it scummy is another way to get out of the RVS from my experiance.

[LlamaFluff]

If that vote was at all serious, thats just a very bad vote. Its a very obvious ability, and easily could lynch someone when someone just wanted a claim out of them. These are very double edged blades.

Firstly, nobody else was voting Porkens and I fully didn't expect it to be a lynch. Secondly, I already implied I was a doublevoter before voting Porkens. Nobody would put him at L-1 without questioning if I counted twice. Thirdly, you're arguing that, in the event I was a doublevoter and serious, that voting at all is apparently bad, and this has nothing to do with voting Porkens.

I am not saying you lynched him or put him in some sort of mortal peril by any means, dont go start saying I did. The fact that you implied you were a DV though ment that you needed to either claim flat out or not since it changes the enitre premise of the game. If there is a DV, everything must be done differently. If you didnt claim or didnt clarify if you were a DV, then things can get hairy around a lynch, and if you didnt clarfiy just recently, I would of made sure you had to or were tested on the lynch.

You voted someone for doing what the right thing to do in that situation was. So basically all at once you lied about your role, voted someone for doing the right thing (for random reasons?), then called it partially serious, then attack more people for doing the right thing.

Not even close to rolefishing. You basically claimed DV early on, and judging by the last votecount, that doesnt really hold up. Also I dont really see anything wrong with a DV either claiming early either for their own benifit, and the benifit of the town as to not accidently quick lynch a player.

This is no basis for voting me. There's no implication that I must be scum in this at all. I fake-soft-claimed doublevoter in RVS. What possible scum motivation aside from WIFOM is there? You say you don't believe Porkens was rolefishing and so you don't agree with my vote, but again, where does that implicate me as scum? Also, I don't believe you don't see how it's able to be construed as rolefishing. Sure, it's something town can ask too, which is why it was hardly serious, but again, why does voting on that make me scum?

Its not that you fakeclaimed as much as it is that you attacked people for reacting

correctly

to your push on porkens. You fakeclaim, get attacked for it, and then attack right back, calling it partially serious. This means you are mixing attacking someone who is completely in the right, and attacking based on random reasoning, when the fakeclaim definantly ended the random stage.

Weak

decent case is

weak

decent.

[LlamaFluff]

I also want to know why Llama dropped Mykonian to focus on me.

I dont think myk is overly suspicious. Plus I always do end up favoring people who think the same as I do, especially if its before I make by suspicions public.

Llama, nice buddying to everyone, especially saying everyone is "doing the right thing." Not saying this indicates you're scum because apparently you're just as manipulative as town though. Porkens asked if I was really a double-voter. To me, that was mildly suspicious, and at the very least, a better vote than my first two. I didn't see it as necessary to ask and then go with "we'll find out in the votecount."

Truth =/= buddying up. What he did and others did was the exact right thing to do in that situation. Why would I not say its the right thing when it is, especially when you appear to be attacking them for doing so.

This is Family Guy mafia all over again...

but its a mini... family guy mini

reborn

[LlamaFluff]

I dont think myk is overly suspicious. Plus I always do end up favoring people who think the same as I do, especially if its before I make by suspicions public.

This is odd.

Back in post 72 you seemed to let on that you were suspicious of mykonian as you pointed out a few things you found wrong with his posting. And this was back at a time when he was still making it somewhat apparent that he was suspicious of Zilla, which means that he would have been thinking the same way as you were back then too. Then you

did

seem to completely drop those mykonian suspicions on page 4 completely in favor of the current Zilla-case. Why is that?

I wanted to be sure I was reading where myk was going correctly. With different answers I would of responded differently. When he confirmed that Zilla was his top pick before I made it known who my top pick was, it made me more comfortable with him.

I get a slight scum-read here. Especially when he said "I like people to vote as it forces them to put up some suspicions" in HIS post 5... after refusing to lay out any reasoning for his own votes. Maybe I am just hypersensitive to no-reason-STATED-votes.... but it seems slightly hypocritical.

Ok, maybe repitition will work here. Go go repition. If you really want to, go pretend I put any reason you want for a random vote. He posted before me, I havent played with him before, go go bandwagon, space in the name, whatever. There was no reason scum tell wise why I voted him though, it was just a random with no reasoning. When you start having scum reads though, you start voting. If I have reasoning behind a vote, I put up reasoning, like you have seen.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

Need to read and see what this changes, but today was a long day in the field so im too tired (and have damn posion oak) to get a good opinion down.

[LlamaFluff]

If he's a one-shot, I find it suspicious that he has used it almost at the start.
Second, his claim. Why would a dayvig claim right away?
Third, I wasn't on his list, while I was lurking as well.

I can see a 1-shot daykill mafia, but not a daykill mafia. This is why I'm giving Porkens a chance for today to prove tomorrow if he's a dayvig. If he's not, point 3 is a very big tell against him.

I agree that one shot should not of been used when it was, but its not a scumtell at all. Some people prefer to use one shot roles early, I try and use limited abilities by night two.

The claim is odd, that one I will give you. Its nothing to lynch him over though by any means. Some roles are ambiguous though when you match up their name and ability, so it may of been fakeable. Porkens should full claim (is his role "Day Vig" or something else).

Im not sure why you even bring up three. Are you accusing him of buddying up to you or something like that?

I see basically no way Porkens is scum without two scum teams in this game. Very small but there is a SK who can only make day kills, but he is nearly certain town with that kill. If there is only one kill a night and they disappear after enough scum deaths, but the game is going, then its something to take into consideration.

The fact that you are railing on Porkens for being scum when he used a day vig to kill scum, who was also a gov (prevents lynch and day goes to night if IIRC), with no concrete evidence... wow.

[LlamaFluff]

I agree that one shot should not of been used when it was, but its not a scumtell at all. Some people prefer to use one shot roles early, I try and use limited abilities by night two.

I like Day-one vigs... just in case you die! Gotta get that killing in!!
And with an unrepenting lurker in the game... y not?!

Im not saying a day one shot is bad, I just dont think it was the right time for it. I would of waited till it was almost a lynch to give a free one, or get my prefrence.

[LlamaFluff]

Very small but there is a SK who can only make day kills, but he is nearly certain town with that kill.

Could you explain this a little differently? I'm having a hard time with it...

Thats me typing faster then my brain is putting things together. The chance that you are town is significantly greater then your chance of being a day-SK which has a significantly greater chance then you being on an opposite scum team which has a significantly greater chance of you being on the same scum team.

Basically Town >> SK >> Other scum > partner scum

[LlamaFluff]

I say we lynch mykonian today, and then you can all consider how awesome my case on Zilla is tomorrow.

Do you think zilla is scum?

Llama, want to comment on something besides obvtown Porkens?

Not quite yet, also if people are serious about lynching someone I wont let get lynched, its not a bad path. I have a few people I want to hear something from. As stuff comes together you will know though.

[LlamaFluff]

LlamaFluff:

A lot of his posts have been giving me the hives actually. I already commented on his early posts where he seemed to be giving mykonian some flak but then suddenly went to being a mykonian-fanboy just because "he was thinking the same thing about Zilla" <-- this switch just doesn't feel natural to me. I'd think an LF-town might show more leeriness towards mykonian.

I just have somewhat of a gut read that myk is town. There is not a whole lot to back it up. Its just a mix of my gut scummy reads and him having a similar read.

Also his recent post about Porkens strikes me as really weird too -- he seems to have a lot of negative to say about the claim but then concludes that he "sees basically no was Porkens is scum". Also, since his unvote of Zilla, he hasn't really commented on anyone or anything aside from Porkens citing that he'd like to see more from some other people. There's plenty of stuff going on right now; any thoughts on that?

I disagree with how its used, thats not something that makes him someone to lynch, just reckless. I still kind of want him to roleclaim though. With a role more descriptive then "mafia" shown already, something just flipping "One shot day vig" is odd.

Working on other stuff though, Zazie kind of disappearing slows it down though. At this point though im not going to be voting myk or zilla though.

@VP - Why myk over Zilla?

[LlamaFluff]

@VP - Why myk over Zilla?

Because he hasn't defended the case against him very well, imo. Therefore, I find him more scummy.

So someones summiness depends on how well they defend their case?

[LlamaFluff]

Vote VP Baltar

While I support the Zilla case, I don't think it's necessary to finish the day so quickly. I would particularly like to look at mykonian, particularly the potential for him to be Zilla's scumbuddy.

Early on VP latches on to both cases (myk and Zilla), and comes to a conclusion that they are both scum, but myk being scum is strengthened if zilla is scum. From there he goes on to talk about instances of what he calls distancing between the two players. The conclusion is not fitting with the first quoted paragraph though. From what the entire post I saw, myk and zilla are both likely scum, but more so zilla.

Mykonian, is Zilla's meta in that one instance the only thing that brought you out of feeling she wasn't voteworthy "at the time" to know putting her fairly close to lynch?

Unvote, Vote:mykonian

After this though, he again goes back to calling zilla scummy for the early on actions.

I've been suspicious of mykonian since early in the game when he was testing the waters of my "wagon" early in the game. His complete reluctance to vote even after the game was well out of the RVS is scummy.

Fair enough, but then we get

Then we have Zilla acting independently scummy. So, I see two people acting scummy and then I looked at their reasons for voting each other. I think if you really examine them you will see how shaky their reasons are when there really are better reasons for voting each of them.

My feelings on mykon are not dependent on Zilla,

but I think they could theoretically be scum together.
(Just for reference, I think my case points more to Zilla bussing mykon if they're both scum and mykon being hesitant to bus Zilla)

The bolded is complete bull. You spent the entire last big post citing all of the instances which make myk scum with Zilla. You actually said you wanted to look at myk “particularly the potential to have him be Zillas buddy”. From what I have seen your entire myk case is “scum with Zilla”.

Family reunion this weekend, but I will try and finish up this case by then. I still think that Zilla and myk are town at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

Is it just me or did VP just ignore my enitre case against him by saying I was following others?

Also what questions am I missing according to you except the fairly obvious "Who was I thinking was scum?"

[LlamaFluff]

Also what questions am I missing according to you except the fairly obvious "Who was I thinking was scum?"

Well, let's see:

FOS: LlamaFluff, ZazieR for trying to get Porkens to claim; what good does that do from a town standpoint? Especially from Llama who says Porkens is likely town.

Porkens backs this point later and says he would also like to hear your response.

I would like to try and get him to commit to if there is flavor or not in roles. Would someone be "day vig" or "archer", "inventor" or something completely off the wall. I am pretty sure it would be uniform one or the other for all roles.

So someones summiness depends on how well they defend their case?

That's a nice leap in logic you have there. Someone's scumminess depends on the scummy actions they take in the game. If a person cannot defend and justify their actions, it generally causes one to believe that those accustions may be valid.

Also, when are you going to answer my questions about your big top secret case?

I was looking at mostly you, with zaize/plum as secondary suspects. I was for all intensive purposes voting for you. Was trying out how seeing keeping a few suspicions hidden would work.

I just have somewhat of a gut read that myk is town. There is not a whole lot to back it up. Its just a mix of my gut scummy reads and him having a similar read.

I doubt this gut read of yours came about back on page 4, right (which was when this 'switch' from myk-hate to fanboy happened)?

I had Zilla as higher then myk there, but I had myk as gut town fairly early on.

Zazie/Llama/Porkens, why no vote? I'm especially curious about Llama, who I KNOW prefers for everyone to always have a vote out.

But it's not lurking that has me worried about Llama. Well, actually, I guess that's part of it. He isn't controlling the game. He's not saying "ok, here's who we're lynching. Back off of this person and vote for this person". And most importantly, he doesn't have a vote out.

I got lost around the time AFC got vigged. I wasnt expecting that, and it shook quite a few of my reads. Intead of trying to BS something about a scum read, I just did some iso reading for the most part. Ive been busier then usual lately, work takes a lot more time out of the day then school does.

Also, Plum says she finds you suspicious, but never states a case. That would be something I would certainly inquire about if I was town.

If she actually thinks im suspicious there will be questions there. So when questions come, I will respond. Im not going to try and pressure someone into voting for me.

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama, have you actively read the game up to this point?

Im up through about 16 pages pretty good, last few not as much

[LlamaFluff]

And again Llama posts without addressing his obviously intentional change in playstyle.

Im not playing entirely against every meta I have. I am trying to not take control of a game though when I dont have any scum reads, only town ones.

[LlamaFluff]

I was for all

intents and

purposes voting for you. Was trying out how seeing keeping a few suspicions hidden would work.

And how did it work out for you? What suspicions did you have on me at the time you said you were compiling information? What was corraborated or disproven while you waited?

I wanted to see if you were going to dig yourself into any bigger hole then what I saw coming from you over your reasoning between choosing one case over the other when they seemed to be of equal merit to you. Apparently if I am going to change playstyle I need to go make an alt.

Also, if you're up to page 16, why not comment on the part where people were talking about you knowing Charter from Family Guy mafia?

I'm actually surprised Llama and KMD haven't called him on it, especially KMD who did comment on Charter's strategy postgame in Family Guy:

Because I dont agree with that too much. I have seen charter as town and he plays pretty similar. Also because it seems like to have the exact meta stay true, Zilla would be scum, which I dont think is true.

Right now, I'll support KMD, VP, and Llama

If someone has a case on me, or something to that extent, it will be mentioned, and I can respond to it. Untill then I will just try and put up a better case since thats a better use of my time then defending myself from shadows.

(VP) never mentions afatchic.
Why is that? No mention at all. Everyone else at least comments on afatchic...(except LLAMAFLUFF!) maybe they are trying to keep the distance?

What do you want here? I didnt mention AFC in my first ten posts, two of which were a confirm and random. Guess who else I didnt mention? Didnt mention kmd, plum, zazie, porkens or charter. I have no clue why our six person scum team didnt endgame the town on post one. AFC had four posts, of which one was even argueably serious.

Ok, that is from page 14 to page 16 where you said you are caught up. Any reason not to respond to these points either?

Because most of what you are quoting is people saying they are somewhat suspicious of me without really giving any reasoning. I am just going to provide alternatives instead of defending myself against something that as far as I know is a hunch.

[LlamaFluff]

Apparently if I am going to change playstyle I need to go make an alt.

So your new playstyle is to lurk your ass off and then just come in with some previously stated reasons to jump on the leading wagon?

Im actually a little above two and a half posts a day, the game is just much more quick paced then ive ever been in.

And a serious question, why would you choose to try and change your meta in a game with people who know you reasonably well and/or have shown they are at least reasonably good at the game of mafia?

I have played with and respect most of the players in this game. If I have no good idea what is going on, I dont mind others at least putting out some cases first. Im just more confident in my town reads right now.

What advantage is there to the style you have chosen over your own?

Im not really having as much fun, but if someone has a better idea of whats going on, I would rather let them help. If I really dont have a good read going in aggressive mode will more likely get in the way then be a benificial.

[LlamaFluff]

Not counterclaiming but not unvoting. Thats a flavorfail claim right there.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote zazie

You spent the entire last part of day one arguing scenarios where Porkens could be scum. Over the whole "I wanted to vig a lurker" argument you even seemed to call him scummy for not puting you on his list. If this is not buddying up as you have said a few times, why is it scummy?

[LlamaFluff]

So is anyone going to give me anything to defend against or is this just going to be an I agree thing?

Rereading a bit right now

[LlamaFluff]

LF, what's your read of Kmd?

I really cant get a read on him too much either way. I am pretty sure on zilla, porkens and myk town at this point. So I would expect to find all scum in kmd-camn-incog-charter. I just really dont have any strong reads either way right now and am trying to get some down. I am just more confident of town reads right now and have been action on them.

[LlamaFluff]

Deadlines are a week, and its obvious im going to have to claim within the next few days either way so I will right now, so there is time to move a wagon with sufficent discussion instead of some last minute scramble.

Im called a 'Hedge Wizard', im basically a lazy magician who each night can focus his powers on one player, which benifits them. After enough questions, the mod said that I am basically an inventor that does not know what his inventions do.

Last night I targeted myk, given that I wasnt sure which one of zilla and porkens would be killed. I figured it would be dependent on if scum had a roleblocker or not, and I decided not to gamble on it.

People in the family guy mini should remember this role. Its like reborns, but I just dont get to name my inventions. Myk should be able to confirm something happened though.

Also im a little surprised kmd never noticed that I was playing to my power role meta a bit (which is basically just playing really shitty). This is standard play for me whenever I get anything thats non-vanilla really.

Breadcrumbs were

This is Family Guy mafia all over again...

but its a mini... family guy mini

reborn

Reborn was the player in family guy mini with the role I have. Odd but blatant crumb.

Also what questions am I missing according to you except the fairly obvious "Who was I thinking was scum?"

Well, let's see:

FOS: LlamaFluff, ZazieR for trying to get Porkens to claim; what good does that do from a town standpoint? Especially from Llama who says Porkens is likely town.

Porkens backs this point later and says he would also like to hear your response.

I would like to try and get him to commit to if there is flavor or not in roles. Would someone be "day vig" or "archer", "inventor" or something completely off the wall. I am pretty sure it would be uniform one or the other for all roles.

Me basically claiming inventor again, except saying my rolename is an oddity. Also this was my entire reasoning behind wanting porkens to claim. I was almost hoping he would say something that would either confirm him as town to all the other PRs, or snag him if he was anti-town. Zilla picked up on this one actually.

Tomorrow I will get to rereading

[LlamaFluff]

I didn't see you do this as a vig or as a JOAT.

I always just fail with any power role. I think I spend too much time during they day trying to figure out how to use my role and not enough scumhunting.

Why did you choose Mykonian for your invention?

Unvote

. You aren't confirmed, but there's no reason to lynch you just yet. I want Myko to confirm that he got an item. And I want to point out that inventor isn't always a town role.

Already said this but, it was either myk, porkens or zilla. I figured if there was a scum RB, that porkens would be killed, if there was none, zilla would be killed. So I went with my third most likely town figuring that the chance of them getting killed was almost zero.

Also im not sure its an item, I am able to "focus engery" on player. I was just told its most like a inventor who doesnt know what his items do

[LlamaFluff]

Fun fact

:

LlamaFluff has a knack for fake-claiming town power roles as scum. I'm skeptical of this claim; I don't doubt that he has this ability that he's claiming, but I do doubt whether he's actually town-aligned.

btw, Llama is town.

I'm assuming this means that you did receive whatever it is that LF gave to you during the night, yes? If so, why do you believe that automatically makes him town?

Both these can be covered at once! Yay!

All my inventions benifit whoever they are given to. That is something that has been confirmed to me, and I am sure myk can confirm that as well. Now, how would a scum role that aids the town work really? You either are arguing that I am scum given useful things to town, or you are arguing that I am scum with myk.

Also another

FUN FACT

If Llama did not replace into a game, he is town. (seriously, even including abandoned games im something like 15 town - 2 scum)

I always just fail with any power role. I think I spend too much time during they day trying to figure out how to use my role and not enough scumhunting.

This is an odd answer. Kmd is accusing you of playing differently from how he's seen you play as a town PR in the past, and you seem to completely skip around his issue with you and mention that you always fail as a town PR. So, is his meta of you incorrect or something?

I do not think I have ever had to claim VT outside of massclaim/lylo situation in my entire history of playing. I normally get ran up as power roles and need to claim. I can think of only a few games as a town power where I did not need to claim.

[LlamaFluff]

Family Guy Mini. Llama was a JOAT and one of the towniest players in the game.

Family Guy Large. Llama was a vig. Wrong on his shots, but pretty protown through most of the game. He did get wagoned after a while and have to claim, but before that, he was really townie.

But if you remember I would of got lynched in both of those games if I was VT. Being forced to claim out of massclaim is bad play to me.

[LlamaFluff]

You only had to claim in the Mini because you were voteless.

I had to full claim late because I (correctly mind you) suggested lynching the lovers because one is scum.

The large, you mostly played a good game.

Good day one, really bad post day one.

Here, you took a back seat and waited for something to happen. That is something I have NEVER seen you do.

I cant get any good scum reads on anyone, I dont want to try and take over a game when I dont have any good scum reads.

Im starting to lean to a charter-incog pairing though on a gut level. Im pretty sure that zilla, porkens and myk are town, also I am starting to gain confidence in camn town.

[LlamaFluff]

I cant get any good scum reads on anyone, I dont want to try and take over a game when I dont have any good scum reads.

Again, I've NEVER seen you do this. You complained about your reads in the Large Family Guy game too, but you kept pushing and taking control.

And we all saw how that turned out. Completely wrong on most reads, and vigged about four power roles in a row. Im practicing some restraint here.

Im starting to lean to a charter-incog pairing though on a gut level. Im pretty sure that zilla, porkens and myk are town, also I am starting to gain confidence in camn town.

Is your suspicion on Charter/Incog purely gut? Have you tried looking back to see if there is a case on either? Why no vote? Why town on Camn?

Im trying to put together reasoning. Charter is mainly due to how he tunneled yesterday, not because he was tunneling, I do that a lot, but it was that he didnt even mention anyone if he didnt think they were scum with Zilla. Now I have no idea on where he stands on anything, which isnt all that townish.

Incog something is really bugging me about, and has been the whole game. It is just something I cant put my finger on though.

Camn I just am starting to get a bit of a gut town read on. I completely disagre over the whole fakeclaim thing (especially because of the obv lack of flavor), but something about her play late day one and into today gave me a town read.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Charter

For the majority of day one, he argued that Zilla was scum, which is something I am fine with overall. I dont really care about tunnel vision or anything along those lines as long as other bases are covered in the end. However Charter never even paid attention to anything else that happened in the game. There was one mention of Zazie in a negative light for the whole comments regarding Porkens claim. Myk is also defended on a logical fallacy.

VP was never mentioned by charter, or VPs claim, or anyone who might be scum if Zilla is town, or really much of anything in the end.

[LlamaFluff]

THough we just finished a game where we totally lost because we spent too much time discussing roles and setup... and not enough discussing scumminess... right Lllama?

Yes, we did. That game still pisses me off how much it was a follow the PR game.

We should massclaim in this situation though given that we have had three claims and a softclaim. Yes kmd definantly softclaimed as well.

[LlamaFluff]

Oh, one more interesting tidbit. I was roleblocked last night. I can see it coming from either alignment, but I feel like I should get that out there. I got flavor via Mod-PM (much more common on SA than it is here. I kind of like it, actually). I'll hold off on saying what I tried to do until I have to claim at some point.

This is a softclaim. Anything that specifically says "I am not VT" is a softclaim.

[LlamaFluff]

Got dragged out of town for a party, still not feeling good a full day later, awesome party.

Anyways, charters vote on me is funny. Especially where he cites jokes (539) as a reason for a vote. Also he completely misinterprets 649 from what I can see. That quote from myk regarding his earlier quote im pretty sure ment "I had not got targeted by llama day one when I said porkens was obv town".

We NEED to massclaim today. Im not sure if others see what I already see from this, but there is one big piece of information that can be picked up from a claim. I think myk or charter should start a massclaim, we have no time left to do this.

[LlamaFluff]

I also just realized: there was no real pro-town reason for Llama claiming when he did. I can see why scum would want to do that, as some consider unsolicited claims more believable and the gambit would work better if he "spontaneously" claimed, but there really was no reason to bring any of that up.

I said why I claimed when I did at the time I claimed. We have VERY SHORT deadlines and it was pretty obvious I would have to claim within a few days. If I could claim six days before deadline, it leaves six days of discussion before deadline as opposed to three or four if I did nothing.

@Incog - If you have ever played with me, I ALWAYS do this stuff where I call someone town and treat them as town. About 90% of the time I feel my town reads are better then scum reads, so am much more adament about forcing them on others. I know its meta but I get a little on edge when someone attacks me for something that I always do. You even saw me do this in the game you modded me in.

[LlamaFluff]

LF: That's not my issue with you though. Every single one of your reads so far (with the possible exception of charter who you have given reason for voting for), you've claimed to have been a gut read. I have no problem with the occasional gut read, I have no problem with town-hunting -- I do this kind of stuff all the time as well. I

do

have a problem with what I perceive to be a lack of interest on your part to determine

why

these people feel either town-ish or scummy to you.

I got in two fast paced games (this one being one of them) at the same time, and I dont really have as much time as I did in school. I just still think myk is town on how he came to the same conclusions I did early, and just a bit by how the wagons fell off zilla and myk to go to VP. I said why I think charter is scummy, and most of my other reads are more PoE then anything else.

I would still love a massclaim today, but it looks like it isnt happening. Either way myk should claim in his next post as it looks like we have two people thinking of voting him, and deadline is very close.

[LlamaFluff]

Just realized LF missed part of my post.

LF, how about this:

Out of curiosity, when you voted for ZazieR earlier Today, were you planning on pushing her lynch or was that more a pressure vote?

Was a vote to lynch. She made around 200 posts in ONE game since her last post in this game. When you combine the lurking with the fact that she seemed to be calling porkens scummyish for ignoring her as a lurker which to me somewhat suggested she was scum since its the only way it would be scummy enough to suggest a lynch of a dayvig who had killed scum.

I still would prefer a charter lynch to a myk lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

Also, LF, this bit seems counter-intuitive to me:

I just still think myk is town on how he came to the same conclusions I did early, and just a bit by how the wagons fell off zilla and myk to go to VP.

Could you break it down for me?

The myk wagon seemed to fall apart quicker. I just dont think that a scum driven wagon on town would move onto a new person like that. Especially with a deadline under a week.

[LlamaFluff]

EBWOP..

for clarity... that means :
I still don't get it, LF.

It just more or less is what I came to the conclusion of. I have a hard time usually explaining some reads I get, but my reads on town seem to be pretty accurate. I know it was a town wagon going to another town wagon, just the way it happened makes me think there was a lot of town fail going on day one with scumhunting. Im not going to be able explain this one too well, I know im not. I just trust in my read at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

I think we also need to revisit: why was KMD blocked when there was a claimed doctor already out?

And damn, this nearly slipped my mind.

If you are going to speculate this you should also be going on about why the claimed doctor lived, or why someone who didnt look too great got killed.

I still say we should massclaim, I still say charter should be the lynch, and I still say myk is town. I guess I could apply my "vanilla claim in a situation where it seals their fate" tell (I used this to stop town lynched in both family guy games IIRC) to myk too now.

Im torn on kmd for the mostpart (another reason massclaim is good). I dont read him as scum, but also not as town as I normally do. Worst thing about him is how he seemed to go back and forth on the whole flavor of what alignment targeted him.

[LlamaFluff]

Anyways, charters vote on me is funny. Especially where he cites jokes (539) as a reason for a vote. Also he completely misinterprets 649 from what I can see. That quote from myk regarding his earlier quote im pretty sure ment "I had not got targeted by llama day one when I said porkens was obv town".

We NEED to massclaim today. Im not sure if others see what I already see from this, but there is one big piece of information that can be picked up from a claim. I think myk or charter should start a massclaim, we have no time left to do this.

It didn't seem like it was a joke to me. It seemed like you were actually trying to argue you weren't scum because you never are.

So you want me using smiles when I am making jokes like that in the future? It was me getting frustrated about the 'FUN FACT' thing and making a joke about it.

Llama, post 539, what is the point of that post? It seems very defensive seeing as how I didn't see how any of the stuff you reponded to was an attack.

Im starting to lean to a charter-incog pairing though on a gut level. Im pretty sure that zilla, porkens and myk are town, also I am starting to gain confidence in camn town.

Anything more than gut for any of these?

Im have my three town reads already, which leaves just four players. Of them I think camn is town, and actually given that we never had a massclaim is a small point for kmd town. That I will explain after we massclaim though.

You ignored everything but zilla yesterday, quite intentionally at times, even when it was obvious that VP was going to be at least forced to claim it was brushed aside for a case that is now dropped, and you skated by D1 with nothing added to the game effectively.

Now when you eliminate what you misinterpreted, when you already take into effect what I said about choosing myk to be sure I got something out there, all you have against me in your post is "argued meta" and "buddied to myk". I call it defended my town read, but if you want to call it buddying to make your case two points instead of one, I can just prove it wrong.

Also the rest of that post is clarifying my role, and responding to a meta question.

Some things that weren't included in my last post because they happened earlier was his vote for VP when mykonian was coming under fire and then his insistance that myk is town, where there's really no reason for this at all. His case against VP was weak and he never pursued it, instead letting others interrogate VP. I'm currently thinking it is Llama and possibly myko. I can still see how Llama can be scum and trying to buddy up to myko.

Wouldnt be moving a wagon onto VP from myk be more of a scumtell if myk is scum? If myk is town that part of the case gets much weaker quickly. Also I count four back in fourth posts with me and VP in three days, it may be slightly less activity then thread average, but I wasnt lurking in an attempt to get him lynched like you seem to be suggesting.

~~~

Charter is doing it again if you havent noticed. He basically is treating me as Zilla yesterday, while ignoring everything else that is going on. Even the "def him but works with others" suspicion line is reoccuring. At this point he is just going to stop commenting on the rest of the game, again.

[LlamaFluff]

Wouldnt be moving a wagon onto VP from myk be more of a scumtell if myk is scum? If myk is town that part of the case gets much weaker quickly. Also I count four back in fourth posts with me and VP in three days, it may be slightly less activity then thread average, but I wasnt lurking in an attempt to get him lynched like you seem to be suggesting.

WIFOM of the worst type. I don't see how Mykonian being town makes it any less of a scumtell. Good scum can play it to the hilt.

Its a tell only if myk is scum because I shut the door on that lynch. If I left it open ended and came back to it later, I would agree.

@camn - I never targeted zilla so her claim is a role claim, I had nothing to do with it.

[LlamaFluff]

zilla should claim her target before we lynch or no lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama: why?

I mean were you roleblocked or not.

[LlamaFluff]

I continue: why?

You dont see the benifit of sharing if you were blocked? I know you can figure out where im coming from here.

[LlamaFluff]

Errr... I'm not sure I'm following why LF is questioning only Zilla about being roleblocked.

Dead day vig, alive doc... seemed fairly obvious to me.

[LlamaFluff]

Lets not quick no lynch here. I need the blocked/not from zilla first though

[LlamaFluff]

good kmd is town then.

You got blocked meaning that blocking is a scum action, this means that scum blocked kmd night one and kmd is not scum. Charter and Incog however are still scum.

[LlamaFluff]

That is exactly why I wanted to know if you were blocked. If you were, it ment that you actually confirmed kmd as town. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but at least one of kmd and zilla are town given the very small possibility that this is a really brilliant gambit.

Im just trying to do a quick calc for if we should no lynch or not.

[LlamaFluff]

Seems to me he knew about roleblocking providing flavor and he claimed yesterday to set this whole thing up, now Llama comes in and asks if I'm being blocked to complete the setup that "clears" KMD.

So you are arguing that kmd is scum that knew the RB flavor and either didnt use his action, or targeted a player he was killing, or zazie instead of the claimed doctor?

That just seems like a really really big strech in this situation.

[LlamaFluff]

Still not liking LF, and I really dislike how he's opened up Day 3. Why so eager to try and "confirm" Kmd as town? Especially after mentioning back in post 707 that you weren't crazy about how he went back and forth on the flavor of what alignment targeted him? Wouldn't you be curious to find out the roleblocking

flavor

that Zilla received as opposed to just determining if she got roleblocked?

Call me naive, but I would assume that Zilla being blocked with completely different flavor would of already have been claimed. I wasnt crazy about figuring out who the RB came from due to flavor, since I could of seen kmd being blocked regardless of alignment near the end of D1. What I cared about was who was RBed, not the flavor (unless it was completely different).

I think we definitely need to mass-claim before we do anything else. It's only me, charter, camn, and Kmd who haven't full-claimed yet, so we should probably get that out of the way first before doing anything else. I'll even kick it off: I'm vanilla.

I would say charter, kmd, camn to end it, but im open to discussion on that.

After this, we should probably learn LF's "target" last night, and I wouldn't mind learning Zilla's RB PM flavor (if there even WAS any flavor to begin with) to see if there's any info we can draw from that.

I targeted porkens. I figured if he was going to be targeted, scum would either need to be desperate enough to hope that zilla used her protection and roleblock someone else if it was a scum RB, which I didnt see happening too much if the RB existed. If there was no RB, I didnt see Porkens dying without Zilla dying.

So I figured I target Porkens and Zilla gets RBed with him dying which makes kmd very town, or Porkens doesnt die and gets the invention.

~~~

This just makes camn a little townie since she saw what I was doing immediately with calling for zilla being blocked or not. Given how fast she saw that, I would assume camn-scum would of realized that last night, but im not sure she would of been desperate enough to force all scum into three players. Thats WIFOM though, but it still backs up my current reads.

[LlamaFluff]

You targeted Porkens? Convenient.

Like I already said, there was a doctor claim. I figured doctor would be blocked and that would show its a scum RB, or Porkens would be alive. Either way it would mean you were town or Porkens had my invention.

[LlamaFluff]

There were two events that could of ended up last night, either zilla or porkens was going to get killed.

If porkens got killed, it ment that the RB was a scum RB, which ment that kmd was town. So scum would be getting rid of the day vig while confirming a town player.

If zilla got killed, porkens got my invention, and got a day shot.

I figured that scum would not want to get a townie that was a possible mislynch confirmed (and get rid of the zilla-scum doc thoughts) to get rid of the day vig. I was expecting zilla to get killed, and porkens to have the invention. Given what I expected, I made the right move with my target.

For not giving it to kmd/camn which I did consider, I was not confident enough in either read to flat out give it to them, especially since im an inventor, and did not want to had scum a second NK going into lylo.

[LlamaFluff]

Um. You giving Porkens an invention didn't mean anything as far as confirming me. He'd have died regardless. And someone would have been blocked whether it was Zilla or not.

It ment that either scum had to gamble that zilla wasnt protecting him or had to RB her. Also im working under the assumption that anyone else getting blocked would speak up about it.

[LlamaFluff]

I agree with that. But I still don't see what this has to do with you giving an invention to Porkens.

Because if porkens died it would almost 100% of confirmed zilla and you as town. I did not expect scum to confirm two in order to take out a vig.

[LlamaFluff]

Maybe they didn't realize it would confirm me. And Zilla was pretty near confirmed anyway.

Which is another reason that I think ingoc is scum with charter. His opening of the day really showed no idea that you could of been confirmed from zilla being blocked

[LlamaFluff]

None of that explains why you made a beeline for me on being blocked.

Seriously? No part of "If Zilla was blocked kmd is town" makes you wonder why I wanted to know if you got blocked right off the bat?

[LlamaFluff]

LF, any reason you didn't respond to anything I mentioned in 803? Also, what Zilla just mentioned is critical: there's absolutely no reason why you should have assumed that Zilla was going to be roleblocked and that all of these actions would somehow "clear" Kmd coming into Today.

Actually this is exactly what I assumed, the only high probability way that Porkens died was zilla getting blocked. It was worth it for me to essentially risk burning an invention to get someone cleared. There was a possibility that kmd got blocked, I got blocked, zilla died, etc, etc. Overall, I still feel I made the correct choice. It was me risking losing an invention to a player dying to clear a player.

If you actually look back at what I mentioned when I entered the thread Today, I questioned why you were singling Zilla out when we already had at least three PR claims or semi-claims and then I specifically mentioned what you're accusing me of not seeing:

What does it achieve though? Are you basically trying to determine if Kmd was lying or not or are you doubting Zilla's claim?

I wasnt trying to get zilla or kmd lynched off the push for a claim unless Zilla was going to say a block had no flavor attached to it. I was trying to see if I could clear kmd.

I agree with that. But I still don't see what this has to do with you giving an invention to Porkens.

Because if porkens died it would almost 100% of confirmed zilla and you as town. I did not expect scum to confirm two in order to take out a vig.

You're still ducking the issue here though. Giving an invention to Zilla last night as opposed to Porkens would have still achieved the above-mentioned condition EVEN IF she got roleblocked last Night and Porkens died. I don't get why you gave this invention to someone who you seemed to have been thinking was pretty much going to die -- it essentially became a wasted invention since it doesn't do Town any good in the hands of a dead guy, correct?

How is it a wasted invention? It CONFIRMS TOWN. If kmd was blocked by a town RBer, then zilla was going to be killed instead of porkens. I have a hard time trusting flavor 100%, as a mod I like to ding people who follow flavor and site meta too closely. It was worth it to burn my invention in order to clear a player.

Call me naive, but I would assume that Zilla being blocked with completely different flavor would of already have been claimed. I wasnt crazy about figuring out who the RB came from due to flavor, since I could of seen kmd being blocked regardless of alignment near the end of D1. What I cared about was who was RBed, not the flavor (unless it was completely different).

But Kmd claimed flavor that could

only

suggest that he was being targeted by a scum roleblocker ("evil" forces, etc, etc.). And in his opening post during Day 2, he mentioned that he could see the roleblocker being of either alignment (scum or town), which was an inconsistency that I called him out on (see post 638). This inconsistency didn't and still doesn't concern you in the least?

See my arguement about not buying into flavor blind, etc etc. I basically solved the question of what alignment the RBer is though. You are going on about the inconsistancy though, but I think what I did here irons it out quite a bit.

I targeted porkens. I figured if he was going to be targeted, scum would either need to be desperate enough to hope that zilla used her protection and roleblock someone else if it was a scum RB, which I didnt see happening too much if the RB existed. If there was no RB, I didnt see Porkens dying without Zilla dying.

So I figured I target Porkens and Zilla gets RBed with him dying which makes kmd very town, or Porkens doesnt die and gets the invention.

I don't even understand this logic. In essence, you seem to lean here towards believing that Zilla was going to survive last night no matter what, so I don't really get why you would target Porkens when you seem to lean towards thinking he was going to be killed. And Kmd's claim post had already suggested that the RB was a scum one so there really shouldn't have been any ambiguity there anyway.

Again, RB scum = porkens dead, kmd clear. RB town = zilla dead, porkens with invention. I still think I made the right move here.

[LlamaFluff]

It was me risking losing an invention to a player dying to clear a player.

Again, what makes you think Zilla wouldn't have been blocked if your invention didn't go to Porkens?

I actually dont get what you are asking here. I will make a guess though.

I was only considering targeting zilla or porkens since they were the only ones I had a strong enough town read on, mostly due to roles, that I would risk giving an invention that was a vig kill to. I had weak town reads on you and camn, not near enough to give an invention going into what would likely be a lylo situation, especially one where if it was a vig, no lynch would lose the game.

LlamaFluff, basically, here's what I want to know: Last night, when you were deciding who to give your invention to, what were your main thoughts about the roleblocker that Kmd claimed had targeted him? Were you leaning towards thinking that the roleblocker was a town one or were you leaning towards thinking that the roleblocker was a scum one? You should be able to have an answer to this regardless of your thoughts about mod flavor.

Once this is answered, I should (hopefully) have a more appropriate response to everything that's been said by you Today.

I tried to strip most of the flavor out of it first, and see what the right move there was. Assuming I was just an inventor, and kmd has just been blocked. Given that the best move there was to not make an assumption on where the block came from.

As town RBer, kmd made sense as a target, as scum kmd made sense as a target. This again just drove me to seeing what the best course of action would be sans-flavor, and I followed that. People who have played with me in themes before know I try not to buy into flavor too heavily, with a role that makes the game as swingy as mine, I wanted to make the move that I felt was the best possible.

If you are fishing for an exact number though, I would say I was about 60-40 on it being a scum RBer. Not enough to take any big risks in my mind.

[LlamaFluff]

Well, unless you think Zilla and I are scum together, that's what happened.

And this, in my mind, is your saving grace (at least for Today). I can't see scum not using their RB during Night 1, and I'd

think

the mod would not tell the RB that his or her roleblocks get sent with flavor (which means that a you-scum wouldn't know about this SA-like flavor).

Im pretty sure that the mod wouldnt tell the RB. It took a lot of back and forth messages between me and the mod before I figured out what I was. If he is going to be that vauge over a role that describes my action purely as flavor, I would assume that another flavor intensive role wasnt given either.

I wasnt trying to get zilla or kmd lynched off the push for a claim unless Zilla was going to say a block had no flavor attached to it. I was trying to see if I could clear kmd.

You

didn't "clear" KMD with anything unless you were the one who roleblocked me (this is what I suspect).

So I can give out one shot docs and RB people now?

How is it a wasted invention? It CONFIRMS TOWN. If kmd was blocked by a town RBer, then zilla was going to be killed instead of porkens. I have a hard time trusting flavor 100%, as a mod I like to ding people who follow flavor and site meta too closely. It was worth it to burn my invention in order to clear a player.

This is ridiculous. Giving Porkens an invention has NOTHING TO DO WITH CLEARING KMD.

The only way Porkens was dying was you were getting roleblocked. You getting roleblocked essentially confirms kmd.

See my arguement about not buying into flavor blind, etc etc. I basically solved the question of what alignment the RBer is though. You are going on about the inconsistancy though, but I think what I did here irons it out quite a bit.

YOU

didn't solve ANYTHING. You asked if I was roleblocked. That doesn't give you ANY credit. Furthermore, I didn't specifically say there was flavor with my roleblock or confirm anything.

I dont necessarily think you are stupid. If you just got a "you have been roleblocked" message, I figured that it would of been claimed early on. I dont expect me asking if you have to give me town points, since it was obvious enough. It still needed to be claimed though.

Again, RB scum = porkens dead, kmd clear. RB town = zilla dead, porkens with invention. I still think I made the right move here.

This is an extremely dense false dilemma. There were FAR more than those two outcomes from tonight. What if the roleblocker actually hit scum? What if, god forbid, scum didn't target me, like they didn't night 1? What if just about ANYTHING happened differently?

Furthermore, you say you "made the right choice" when obviously, you didn't because if you gave me an invention, we'd have a "confirmed" KMD and a Zilla with an invention.

If the RBer hit scum, porkens would be alive... my invention would be out there. If they didnt target you, chances are they would not of killed porkens. There was a doc/vig combo out there. Do you SERIOUSLY expect scum RB not to target either of them?

If I gave the invention to you, and the RB was town, you would be dead either way. Even if RB was scum there was still a chance you die and someone like kmd or me gets blocked if they feel safe enough around porkens.

[LlamaFluff]

Going to do a quick skim again of the game after food to make sure I still like the charter lynch. The fact that he didnt claim his role flavor wise, and is countering the "I have reasoning you are lying" from zilla (which is annoying) with "lynch me and you lose, I also have information" just smells scum.

I cant see town charter though since zilla claims to have information that forces charter to be scum. In the event that zilla is lying though (hence scum), charter is telling the truth, and someone tried to kill scum zilla N1, and with one death a night... well I dont see it.

[LlamaFluff]

Did a reread, charter still reads as scum

Vote Charter

[LlamaFluff]

If I live and get a present, that narrows it down to Incog and Camn.

And to think I have been telling you this since D2...

What about the scenario of charter not being the RB though?

[LlamaFluff]

lol what?

Even though I think I played a very poor game, at least I was completely right about myk being town.

[LlamaFluff]

.... I kinda like Llama's "new" playstyle, and that might have kept him alive just because scum would think he's a possible lynch candidate. I was a little surprised he wasn't targeted for kill on the last night.

I honestly never got the reads I need to play like I do. I wasnt getting any strong scum reads, so just kept trying to pick up town reads, which I only really had on myk, which is why I was trying to not let him get lynched at all.

[LlamaFluff]

Mykonian needs to work on his town game...

knows this, but isn't the only one that got him lynched. But if you have great hints, of course I'm listening!

and a mod you don't really notice is a great mod.

Be logical. Its really odd advice, but when I can get someone without having to take a long look at what they are saying, they just look a lot more townie.

Also I wasnt lying about always being town at that point. Right now when I didnt replace into a game, ive been town 15 times and scum once.

[LlamaFluff]

EBWOP

Not to say you werent logical in this game. I actually completely understood what you were getting at which is a big reason I got a town read on you. Did not do a good job of backing that read up though.