Mini 803 - Pale Moon Risin' (Over!)

[charter]

/confirm

[charter]

vote VP Balter

because he is the only one I've never played in a game with before.

[charter]

I give you all, the first scum.

unvote, vote Zilla

For switching votes so fast, and backing down after being called out.

I have to admit I am lost in all this recent bantor. What is the point of it?

[charter]

Charter: explain your reason for saying I "backed down"

Voting someone for "rolefishing" is clearly not "not serious". When questioned, you tried to pass it off as "not serious".

Zilla's post 78 pretty enforces the idea of her being scum. She has finally found a place where her vote will stick. The reasons she is voting for mykonian are crap too, it boils down entirely to WIFOM.

[charter]

Charter: What makes you say that my vote had to be serious in the first place? I think there's a difference in what everyone thinks is serious and not.

It didn't have to be, but it was.

Basically, I was serious in the aspect that I suspected him of rolefishing, but I wasn't seriously considering lynching him over it.

Lynch time.

Explain "place where her vote will stick" and "boils down entirely to WIFOM."

You've put down a lot of votes this game. I get the impression you thought it was finally safe to lay down a vote on a possible wagonee. Boils down to WIFOM is obvious, your reason for voting myk was because you claimed to be town so he can't fake conviction, which will convince exactly zero people in this game. Also, you left a lot of holes in your vote, by using very vague terms such as "I really don't like his stance here" and "I also didn't like his 48 unbidden defense of Porkens" where you let us fill in the gaps for you. Sorry, it wasn't entirely WIFOM.

It was a mechanism to draw discussion, which it did. Porkens then asked if I was a doublevoter. That was the reaction I was looking for, and that's why I voted him.

Oh wait, the vote was serious. Another story change!

Zilla, you voted Porkens, got called out for it, said it wasn't serious, then said it was 25% serious, then said it was serious. That is why I'm pretty sure you are scum.

[charter]

We interrupt your regularly scheduled programming to bring you this important news bulletin. Porkens is Zilla's partner. Thank you for your patience.

vote: LlamaFluff

for not posting anything but a vote. Even a bad justification is better than none.

Why?

accountability.

hmm, I guess I'll have to wait for the votecount to see if you're just being silly or not...

and

Baltar : yes, -ish.

I like the wagon on Zilla.

demonstrate why.

Plus you add in the way that Zilla is behaving extremely strangely (not to mention scummy) in regards to her Porkens vote and everything that has followed, and I'm seeing scumbuddies. This strange behavior I am seeing includes story changing, arguing pointless things like 75% not serious, and how she continues to throw shit everywhere to see what sticks.
Exhibit A

Charter tunneling was trademark of scum-Charter in Family Guy mafia.

Exhibit B

For the record, I'm slightly suspicious of KMD because he's usually obvtown no matter what his alignment is, and this time I'm not getting that feel from him.

Exhibit C
Her reasons for voting mykonian which are comprised of "I don't like xxxx" or "I don't like yyyy" and the other WIFOM reason whereby this is supposedly a serious vote, but I honestly have no clue why it was cast.
Exhibit D

Right now, I'm reading stupid-Charter, suspicious Llama, and hyper-suspicious Mykonian. I also want to know why Llama dropped Mykonian to focus on me.

Here are more grey areas for us all to fill in. Why is LLama suspicious you ask? Your guess is as good as mine. Zilla says this about Llama

Llama, nice buddying to everyone, especially saying everyone is "doing the right thing." Not saying this indicates you're scum because apparently you're just as manipulative as town though.

but I don't see how you can draw conclusions from that since you say you know he does it as town.

The third scumbag is probably VP Balter, but that's getting a little ahead of myself at this time.

I don't think mykonian is scum, because his reason for voting Zilla was crap, and it would be dumb to vote your partner like that if you were scum.

[charter]

He didn't say anything else other than "I support the Zilla case."

HUGE FOS: VP Baltar

Yes, Porkens did this too. Convenient to leave that out of your FOS parade.

I am not liking how camn took the time to mention every player, but said nothing about the majority of them. Not liking it one bit.

Some people seem to misunderstand what I mean with: "I will vote you when you lurk", said to charter. Last game he was scum, he won it by tactically being not in the thread . Just a warning that I will look at it.

Yes, that was one of my better scum games.

[charter]

It's a tell on anyone who does it. If camn is ever revealed scum, I'd bet at least one buddy is a person she gave a non-read on. Actually, I believe she gave nonreads on at least half the players.

I will be looking more in depth to see if camn fits in my perfect little Zillascum world after work tonight.

[charter]

Charter, stop using alts to push your points. Laughing

Stop making alts that I have to constantly hunt down.

Charter and Camn are both matching the meta I have for them as town.

What did you think of Camn's post where she mentions everybody? Is this post part of the Camntownmeta?

What did you think of Camn's post where she mentions everybody? Asking this to everyone.

[charter]

wtf just happened?

[charter]

I don't think mykonian is scum, because his reason for voting Zilla was crap, and it would be dumb to vote your partner like that if you were scum.

You admit that mykonian's reason for voting Zilla was crap and yet you still come to the conclusion that he's likely not scum? Like

seriously?

Yes. Call it the 'too dumb to be scum' fallacy or whatever, but it's just too sloppy and careless for a scumbag to make, I believe.

Zilla, I really don't see what your problem with Kmd is. It looks to me like it's mostly OMGUS. I don't see where he has backpedaled at all.

Also, your VP points don't make any sense. Once again, it all stems from WIFOM.

the rest are apparently angry at me for voting Porkens on a weak premise (when we were transitioning, thanks to me, out of RVS, I should remind you, with a 75% joke vote)

...and my vote is parked for the day. Zilla is going way too far with all this chest pounding with getting us out of the RVS. Whoopdie freaking doo. It's not a towntell in the slightest, and yet Zilla is trying to make it out like she's town for doing a scummy action to transition out of the RVS using all this "I did it for reactions" bs.

[charter]

I don't think mykonian is scum, because his reason for voting Zilla was crap, and it would be dumb to vote your partner like that if you were scum.

You admit that mykonian's reason for voting Zilla was crap and yet you still come to the conclusion that he's likely not scum? Like

seriously?

Yes. Call it the 'too dumb to be scum' fallacy or whatever, but it's just too sloppy and careless for a scumbag to make, I believe.

You're giving Mykonian a clear because I MUST be scum, right? Where does he sit if I'm town?

No, I just find it too hard to believe he would make such an obviously poor vote if scum. He's in the same spot if you're town.

Zilla, I really don't see what your problem with Kmd is. It looks to me like it's mostly OMGUS. I don't see where he has backpedaled at all.

Backpedalled regarding his suspicion on Mykonian, and I did a poor job of getting to the point with that.

I don't see any backpedal.

Also, your VP points don't make any sense. Once again, it all stems from WIFOM.

Elaborate please?

Stuff like "you don't really believe it, but you believe you can sell it" coupled with the fact that your 'read' on Porkens doesn't say anything, and the only thing we're left with is he accused you of not reponding to a question (which you didn't) and you somehow spin it back on him.

the rest are apparently angry at me for voting Porkens on a weak premise (when we were transitioning, thanks to me, out of RVS, I should remind you, with a 75% joke vote)

...and my vote is parked for the day. Zilla is going way too far with all this chest pounding with getting us out of the RVS. Whoopdie freaking doo. It's not a towntell in the slightest, and yet Zilla is trying to make it out like she's town for doing a scummy action to transition out of the RVS using all this "I did it for reactions" bs.

First, I'm not saying I'm town for getting us out of RVS. I'm saying that my vote on Porkens wasn't all that serious. Second, "all this chest pounding?" Not only does that put a disturbing image in my head, but I haven't been saying that I deserve any town-points for being the one to stir up serious discussion. Third, I never claimed to vote Porkens for reactions. Yes, I wanted to see where plum was going with her "is that serious?" but that had nothing to do with transitioning out of RVS. Fourth, this ignores the actual point, that people are suspecting me for a weak vote.

You've mentioned how your actions lead out of the RVS multiple times. Why, if not to try and gain some subliminal townpoints?
What do you mean you never claimed to vote Porkens for reactions? What is this then?

I'm not claiming doublevoter. It was a mechanism to draw discussion, which it did. Porkens then asked if I was a doublevoter. That was the reaction I was looking for, and that's why I voted him.

Why did you vote him then?

Fourth, this ignores the actual point, that people are suspecting me for a weak vote.

I'm not voting you because you voted Porkens. I'm voting you because since you did it, you've been horribly inconsistant with your reasoning for voting him. I feel like every post it changes. On top of that there's this 75% not serious nonsense.

This is why I hate Charter.

...thanks. I don't see where I'm being unreasonable at all, seeing as how you have many more votes than just mine.

[charter]

@ All: Is not casting a random vote more or less suspect than casting a random vote without jokey reasoning provided? Also, does anyone know if Myk has a history of avoiding voting in the random stage at all?

Don't know about myk's history, but whether you vote in the RVS or not and the reason for voting aren't tells.

What do you know of Mykonian that allows you to make this call on what he would do?

That he isn't a newbie.

If you think I'm backpedaling on my stance on Porkens, apply that same logic to KMD regarding Mykonian. He DID suspect Mykonian.

No. None of what you quoted suggest Kmd suspecting myk, you're just interpreting it your own (wrong) way.

Respond to the rest of Zilla's post later. sigh.

[charter]

Show me in context, and tell me if you can't see why I bring it up, if and when I do.

I don't see the need for a person to ever declare the RVS over. I don't see why you kept saying it. I think it's a slight scum tell because you're pointing out to everyone that you are useful, which you shouldn't need to do.

Stuff like "you don't really believe it, but you believe you can sell it" coupled with the fact that your 'read' on Porkens doesn't say anything, and the only thing we're left with is he accused you of not reponding to a question (which you didn't) and you somehow spin it back on him.

You didn't actually elaborate on any of this, just defended against the non-attack of "somehow spinning it back on him". Disappointing. All you did was go to extreme lengths to defend yourself. I'm not going to continue with this because I'm not going to bother reading another essay.

I said I wasn't entirely truthful to say it wasn't serious, and that it was only 25% serious. It hasn't changed from that.

That IS an inconsistancy. How can you ignore how you said it wasn't serious after being called out when it was serious when you cast it, and then you admitted to it being serious later. Don't even wave percentages at me, because that means nothing, this is a black and white matter.

Zilla, the reason I'm voting you is because your story changed in regards to your Porkens vote. The only thing I assumed is it was serious when you cast it (which is both obvious and admitted since then). And also, have you played in games with me where my tunnel vision was wrong? Not trying to be arrogant, but just curious. (because it is wrong sometimes)

I am also not comprehending ZazieR's post 202, Porkens is quite definately town in my book. Her explainations don't make sense either (I understand what she's saying, I don't think it's right).

isn't a governor a role that stops a lynch?

Yes.

I really don't see anyone else as scum besides Zilla. Maybe VP Balter, but that's kind of a guess.

[charter]

I'm not torn on Zilla at all, and I'm not responding to her bs anymore. She keeps attacking EVERYONE that is/was voting her. I've seen zero scumhunting, just these ridiculous defenses.

ZILLA, YOUR VOTE WAS SERIOUS. THEN YOU CHANGED YOUR STORY. END OF DISCUSSION.

That is why I'm lynching you. I'm not debating this any more.

[charter]

I have nothing more to add today. I will try and find Zilla's partner based on voting patterns tomorrow.

[charter]

[quote="Zilla"]I think it's possible Incognito is buddying up to me in an attempt to look town, because yes, he's actually using his head, which apparently a few players aren't capable of here, but at least he's reading the thread and actively hunting scum, and even if his pro-town act is a charade, at least it looks pro-town, which is better than the scumbuckets Mykonian, VP, Llama, and KMD, and loads better than lazy tunneler Charter, and even better than lurker ZazieR and scant-poster Plum.[quote]
Zilla has a scum theory for 7 people. Discounting herself, and afatchic, and Porkens, that leaves us with camn. camn just moved up in scumminess.

Lynch Zilla.

[charter]

Hmm, I missed the last bit of the last page. Interesting theory Kmd. Incog gets a special mention in Zilla's recent post where she basically accuses everyone. Very interesting.

[charter]

So can we lynch Zilla now?

[charter]

I am also not comprehending ZazieR's post 202, Porkens is quite definately town in my book. Her explainations don't make sense either (I understand what she's saying, I don't think it's right).

What was I saying according to you?

You were trying to invent ways to vote Porkens at some point. I don't see any way that I ever could vote Porkens.

ZazieR, no one is questioning Porkens's kill because he hit scum. You're almost arguing that he himself is scum, which is ridiculous.

Lynch Zilla people

I don't see what's wrong with tunneling if you tunnel on scum. I'm pretty damn sure Zilla is scum. Oh, and also, Zilla's 'charter tunnels as scum' crap, I tunneled on my buddy, so there's really nothing to lose by lynching Zilla.

[charter]

Hahahaha
Rich.

[charter]

I'm not voting anyone but Zilla.

[charter]

A little elaboration for fun. Zilla supports the lynch of literally everyone but herself. (and maybe camn)

[charter]

There's already one scum dead. Zilla is another scum. How many suspects do I have to have? I assume there's three scum, so I'm just looking for one more person. Frankly, power roles should be able to nab the last scum.

And your put up or shut up is incredibly old and doesn't actually defend against anything, just a poor way to attempt and shy off things. I suppose that you might not "support" the lynch of everyone, but in the last few pages, you've voiced suspicion on everyone but camn, so it doesn't seem like you think anyone is town, except camn. There, camn is the third scum.

[charter]

Myk, Because the flipped scum has a name, that means there are two groups? We just had a massive debate about this in an ongoing game (cough Incog cough), I REALLY don't want to do it again here especially since it's day one and there is zero evidence and it really doesn't matter at this point. Now, if come tonight, there are multiple kills, then I will go back and revise my assumption of three scum, but day one (unless I know otherwise) I always just assume three scum.

And you seriously have not seen Zilla's continued shit throwing? Did you go look at her posts from the past few pages? It's very obvious, but if you still need me to point it out, I will. Post 252 names mykonian, VP, LLama, Kmd as scum. It also softly accuses Incog, ZazieR, Plum. 280 is more "not liking" soft accusations. Probably some others, that's just a cursory glance.

[charter]

Myk, Because the flipped scum has a name, that means there are two groups?

Why just blindly assume it is only one, while you could also think about the other scenario?

I think it's counterproductive to spend time thinking about it day one. Day two is a different story, but right now, I see no point in it.

[charter]

FOS Myk for the "not playing very town, as expected"

If everything I posted in that summary, is about right, then I'm suspicous further of Charter very soon after you, and Llama/KMD at a clear third place. Don't really know what to think about them. The main thing behind my suspicion of Charter is his use of subjective arguments against zilla (I commented on it, if you want, I should be able to find it again).

What is subjective about Zilla's story changing? It's clear as day.

I had to skim the last couple of pages, I don't have much time these days and this game moves fast.

[charter]

I am totally lost. I will have to reread tomorrow. I think it unlikely that Zilla is scum after that episode at the end of the last day. What I still don't understand is WHY THE HELL YOU KEPT CHANGING YOUR STORY?!?!?!

[charter]

Not much time, will try and read up today..

[charter]

Ok, I haven't had time, I'm going to try and stay in my games. Reading from page 17.

page 17 and 18 said absolutely nothing.
465- FOS Camn, since I don't remember Camn saying anything about being suspicious of ZazieR before then, or anyone else being suspicious of Zaz either.
Don't really know what to make of the VP scandal except I wager Zilla is, in fact, town.
527- Why didn't Llama give it to Zilla or Porkens? Both of them seem more confirmed town to me than myk.

btw, Llama is town.

Charter assumed yesterday in one of his reasonings that there was only one scumteam, something that was debated then. He seems surprisingly to be right. I wonder where he got that knowledge...

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11050
Read how much time we spent debating this and how much scum feasted off the town's confusion. It is idiotic to debate these things day one before there is any evidence.
529- I don't like LLama trying to defend himself with "I'm a power role so I"m playing shitty"
531- I don't put much stock in to stuff like this.
539- I also don't like Llama saying that he has to be town because he always is. Very scummy.
Also, Llama is now arguing meta points, which are mostly worthless to begin with.
559- No, you shouldn't have claimed. Incog vote is weak and pointless.
573- I think I gave ideas for Zilla's buddies.
574- I don't think that's how it works Kmd. It seems like you're only presenting one side of the story here.
578- WOW, Another case of "charter plays scummy all the time, so lets lynch him!" except this isn't in the RVS. Terrible vote.
588- Kmd needs to claim.
605- Yes, I agree. Llama seems to be buddying hardcore.
638- I want Kmd to answer Incog's flavor question.
649- Ha, the straw that broke the camel's back.

vote Llama

Have to run, questions for llama to come.

[charter]

Got dragged out of town for a party, still not feeling good a full day later, awesome party.

Anyways, charters vote on me is funny. Especially where he cites jokes (539) as a reason for a vote. Also he completely misinterprets 649 from what I can see. That quote from myk regarding his earlier quote im pretty sure ment "I had not got targeted by llama day one when I said porkens was obv town".

We NEED to massclaim today. Im not sure if others see what I already see from this, but there is one big piece of information that can be picked up from a claim. I think myk or charter should start a massclaim, we have no time left to do this.

It didn't seem like it was a joke to me. It seemed like you were actually trying to argue you weren't scum because you never are.

Charter needs to post more but at least he has good taste with his LF-vote. Charter, about the two scum group thing, I agree it was a pointless discussion in this particular game but it was absolutely necessary in Mafia in Ludd -- in Ludd we at least HAD evidence that two mafia teams might have existed; in this SpyreX-game, we had and still have no such evidence.

Yes, in that game it was. On day one in this game (or any game), it was not.

Charter's last post, to me, is unlike the tunneling, certain, town-charter I've come to like. Also, he also says zilla has buddies, even though he's also seemed to accept Zilla as town. I also found his vote to be incredibly opportunistic (jumping on the second wave of the llama wagon.

Well, it seems impossible to me that scum would counter doc day one. Since VP was town, if Zilla was scum, she would know VP was town, and probably assume he was telling the truth about his role. If VP flipped doc, Zilla would be the next to go. I can't see this coming from scum who have already lost one member. So basically everything I had previously thought about this game is most likely not true. I do still look out of reason when playing.
Also, Llama had zero votes, so I don't see why you think there is a "second wave" or how my vote is opportunistic. Perhaps you were mistaken?

there seems to be some confusion about what Llama gave me. I can use it tonight. but because you all wanted my claim, now scum can happily block me and kill Porkens. congratulations.

Few things. First, as far as I can tell, the only reason we have to suspect a RB exists is that Kmd claimed to have been blocked last night. I'm actually thinking it's a town RB because it would have made a lot of sense for scum to do this last night, but they didn't. Why would they prefer to do it tonight, instead of last night? This doesn't make sense. I don't see why you are assuming scum have a RB, I'm thinking town does.

Llama questions after dinner.

[charter]

Llama, post 539, what is the point of that post? It seems very defensive seeing as how I didn't see how any of the stuff you reponded to was an attack.

Im starting to lean to a charter-incog pairing though on a gut level. Im pretty sure that zilla, porkens and myk are town, also I am starting to gain confidence in camn town.

Anything more than gut for any of these?

Oh, I see that I did misinterpret 649, myk was saying that he wasn't targeted by Llama yesterday, not last night. However, I still like my vote on Llama.

Some things that weren't included in my last post because they happened earlier was his vote for VP when mykonian was coming under fire and then his insistance that myk is town, where there's really no reason for this at all. His case against VP was weak and he never pursued it, instead letting others interrogate VP. I'm currently thinking it is Llama and possibly myko. I can still see how Llama can be scum and trying to buddy up to myko.

[charter]

unvote, vote myk

I know I'm not scum, and if it's me or him, this is an easy choice.

[charter]

vote no lynch

[charter]

I guess we can, doesn't really matter to me. I doubt we're in danger of speed nolynching though.

[charter]

I wasn't going to let the town hammer me when I knew I was town.

[charter]

I'm like a busdriver (not really called that, but that's what I do).

Night one I switched Zilla and Plum.
Night two I switched Llama and Camn.

Night one I did it cause I figured Zilla would get killed since she claimed doctor. That's why I dropped Zilla entirely day two, cause I'm pretty sure she got targeted since Plum Died.

Night two, I thought Camn would get killed, and I thought Llama is scum.

[charter]

Ha. I'm sitting on a bomb. I can't bring myself to reveal it, go ahead and lynch me, but you will have eliminated the possibility of winning this game on skill. There's a tiny chance you can do it on luck, but very very tiny.

The only "lie" Zilla could possibly have caught me in is if she doc'ed herself night one, which clearly wasn't the case, and she's just trying to lynch me because she thinks she is clever.

And yes, I thought Plum was lurkerscum day one.

[charter]

Also, Incog will be voting me shortly (probably right after Kmd or Llama does). I can read minds.

[charter]

unvote, vote charter

Guess you'll figure out shortly how town cannot win. COUGH INCOG COUGH.