Mini 803 - Pale Moon Risin' (Over!)

[Kmd4390]

/confirm

Read the rules before you confirm, Porkens.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Kmd

Either

for Schtick voting

or not meta voting.
I'll see later which one it is

^That one.

Vote Zazie

unvote
Vote: Porkens

for rolefishing.

Serious vote or not?

[Kmd4390]

@ KMD

No, it wasn't serious.

So you've joke voted/fos'd 4 players now.

Well, I'd consider that scummy most times. But in this game, there are so many players who know each other and have a history.

For example...

Just think of the times Camn has killed me. Both were obviously revenge shots. Yeah, I need to at least vote her now. That will at least make me feel a little better.

Unvote, Vote Camn

[Kmd4390]

What's scummy about FoS/voting 4 players? Even outside of RVS?

In such a small time span, it just seems different. Almost like the spaghetti tactic. Throw stuff around and see what sticks.

Though I can now also include not meta voting as you later switched to camn XD

I meta voted. I just changed it afterwards. I always change it eventually.

There's one post which has my attention. But I'm not planning to comment on it soon though.

Um, what?

But, as we all know, you don't have them on sundays

I had one on a Saturday morning, so it's possible.

There's another reason for that vote, but I'd like to withhold that information at this time too.

Why are we witholding reasons for votes?

This is why I like people to vote as it forces them to put up some suspicions.

QFT.

b: yes top pick, but

I want to look longer

.

Why? (to the bolded)

c: no, just that if I were to accuse him, the case would be ridiculously weak.

Does it matter if a case is weak at this point in the game? A weak case is better than a joke case or no case at all.

Oh, and that last reason: may I take a guess? Buddying up? to Porkens perhaps?

Is this a joke or are you being serious here? I can't tell with the addition of the smiley.

If it's serious, what makes you think I'm buddying up to anyone let alone Porkens?

Looked to me like he was guessing at your reason for voting him. The fact that you read that as an accusation against you catches my attention.

You're all going to accuse me of something for it, but that's okay. I actually was about 25% serious in voting for Porken based on his first reaction, 36.

Really? You think he was rolefishing by asking about a role that would become obvious immediately anyway? Then you lied when asked about it and said it was for reactions?

Unvote, Vote Zilla

For the record, I'm slightly suspicious of KMD because he's usually obvtown no matter what his alignment is, and this time I'm not getting that feel from him. I don't know what this means though.

You expect me to look overly protown in the RVS?

(Or maybe it's because you saw me as scum in the last game you played with me.)

What's scummy about FoS/voting 4 players? Even outside of RVS?

I'm pretty sure it's the timeframe in which you did it in. You could have been simply testing the waters to see what stuck. I'm of the belief that this is definitely what your Porkens vote was.

Wow. Way to steal my accusation EXACTLY. Even if you posted it before I did.

Charter: What makes you say that my vote had to be serious in the first place? I think there's a difference in what everyone thinks is serious and not.

You said it wasn't serious. Then you said it was 25% serious. Now you are implying that it wasn't serious. Which is it?

Basically, I was serious in the aspect that I suspected him of rolefishing, but I wasn't seriously considering lynching him over it.

Again, double-vote is so obvious that it would be pointless for scum to fish for. And what makes you think all serious votes mean that you want a person lynched?

Charter tunneling was trademark of scum-Charter in Family Guy mafia. He's opposite of Mykonian in that he'll blindly commit to a case.

Charter does this as town too. Probably even more than he does as scum. I won't lynch Charter for tunneling.

I say a vote isn't much use now.

I can't be scared, as votes aren't very much checked in the RVS. They don't say a lot. But if they don't say a lot, why would you vote?

This fails the "if everybody did this, would it help town?" test miserably.

I'm not claiming doublevoter. It was a mechanism to draw discussion, which it did. Porkens then asked if I was a doublevoter.

That was the reaction I was looking for

, and that's why I voted him. Llama, I assume you see the bad logic in saying

Firstly, nobody else was voting Porkens and

I fully didn't expect it to be a lynch.

So you set a trap and didn't want to lynch the person you "caught"?

[Kmd4390]

KMD, till now I have not had any problems with games not starting. And I see no reason to make a mess here. I would also like to know how far we are with Zilla, because I've seen a lot of votes on her.

and a weak case is or an excuse for a vote, or something that shows the unvote will come. I'm not interested in that.

O yes, thank you for pointing at charters meta

I will vote you on the moment I have the idea you are lurking

I'm just saying that if nobody voted until there was a real reason to, we'd never lynch anyone.

And do you think my scum meta is that I lurk? Because if so, I'd like to know why you get that impression. I actually prefer to control a game as scum. I'll push my ideas like I would as town and I'll fight to the death to get the lynch I want. Of course, if I'm town who thinks I'm right, I'll do that too. But I definitely don't lurk strategically. Ever.

Why are we witholding reasons for votes?

He has been doing that lately! I don't like it either.........its new, I think.

As town, scum, or both?

I kind of agree.........you usually DO look obvtown all the time! Even in Medieval.....you only got caught on voting patterns...
I haven't read you that hard in THIS game yet, though... so I am not saying you are scummy YET. Just commenting....

Says the vig who killed me.

And I even tried to connect myself to you, Yos, Farside, and Tajo before I died. But RS was the one who everyone connected to me...[/rantonbadgame]

[Kmd4390]

But seriously, I only killed you because EVERYONE on that day1 mislynch other than you and Yos were cleared! I had a town read on you until then... but the Process of Elimination is compelling!
Then of course it was my pleasure to vig you.

Of course it was.

"Spaghetti strategy" is not just a scum strategy. That's how I like to scumhunt. I am throwing accusations around to see what sticks, but apparently not in the way you're thinking, I'm not seeing which of my cases sticks with town, I'm seeing what reactions my accusations are getting. Right now, I'm reading stupid-Charter, suspicious Llama, and hyper-suspicious Mykonian. I also want to know why Llama dropped Mykonian to focus on me.

How is seeing what sticks helpful to the town?

Llama, nice buddying to everyone, especially saying everyone is "doing the right thing." Not saying this indicates you're scum because apparently you're just as manipulative as town though. Porkens asked if I was really a double-voter. To me, that was mildly suspicious, and at the very least, a better vote than my first two. I didn't see it as necessary to ask and then go with "we'll find out in the votecount."

That's hardly buddying. In fact, I agree with Llama. When someone claims a DV in the RVS, it's best for the town to know if it's a serious claim or not. When you didn't answer, the vote count would tell us anyway. So it didn't hurt to ask.

I've only seen you accused of that once, where you defended in the same way. As scum, in Merrin. It is definately your scum strategy.

vote zilla

: L-2

Do you have a link?

[Kmd4390]

Myko, you have to realize that because she replaced in about 10 pages into that game, and missed the RVS, her vote hopping there is different from here.

That being said, she did jump around quite a bit between voting Goat, you, BB, Panzer, and Qwints in that game. I didn't read very far, but I noticed that much.

She didn't do this in Drawn Together or Poof, two of the games she linked where she was town.

She was town in Family Guy and hopped around quite a bit there too though.

I don't think I can take enough from this meta to pass judgement on Zilla's voting style. I almost want to say I lean scum on it, but Family Guy is throwing me off. Maybe the fact that it was a large game and there were more scum to be suspicious of contributed. Yeah, I think if anything, it's a scumtell for her. I won't say it's a strong point though.

Also, Myko, don't EVER rule out bussing. I once saw Llama bus me Day 1 and our other buddy Day 2. He bussed us both extremely hard when nobody else was even suspicious of us until he brought his cases forward. He went on to win for us because "Oh, scum would never bus that hard". He knows that I think he played an amazing game there, but the point is that I NEVER rule out bussing after that game. Also, I noticed that Zilla voted you in the game you just linked where you were her scumbuddy.

[Kmd4390]

I said: unlikely. That is the thing with WIFOM: normally Llama would never bus that way, but because that makes him look protown, he does it sometimes.

It can still happen though. So I don't rule it out.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd4390 and mykonian:

If I'm reading correctly, VP Baltar was accusing

mykonian

of bussing Zilla. How did you two contort that into

LlamaFluff

bussing Zilla?

Mini 628. Llama bussed there. I was using that as a reason why I never rule out bussing.

No one is saying that Llama is bussing Zilla (as far as I know) here.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd, I realize that but the way you addressed mykonian with "never rule out bussing" is weird since it was him (mykonian) who was being accused of bussing.

Must have missed that.

[Kmd4390]

KMD totally forgetting he was suspecting Mykonian.

Um. I haven't been suspicious of Myko at all in this game.

7.

camn

ObvTown:)
Wait.. ONly 9 posts? I thought

she

had been more prolific in this game, too!!

You actually had to look at your posts to come to the conclusion that you are obvtown?

grrr. I don't think I will make it that easy again for you.

but ehh, do you think that is a tell on camn? Trying to be seem active early in the game?

Charter, stop using alts to push your points.

I learned recently that the move is to set the Board-Color-preferences to a different scheme for your alt. Like Sepia for one, blue for the other. Then you can remember better.

I use Watched Topics, so I don't have that problem. I only watch games that that account is playing in.

So Zilla is still scum. The case on Myko is still crap. Zilla is trying way too hard to defend with meta now. Charter and Camn are both matching the meta I have for them as town. Afat needs to post or die. That is all.

[Kmd4390]

Zilla, your meta is far too inconsistent for me to draw conclusions from it.

What am I agreeing with? (Sorry, I worked overnight, so I'm not exactly all here and probably won't be all summer.)

I wasn't saying I was suspicious of Myko. I told him that it was a bad defense to be saying he couldn't be bussing. Any vote can easily be bussing. That doesn't mean I think he is scum, it just means that was a bad defense.

[Kmd4390]

why would town make up an unlikely story? why did VP baltar have to link me and zilla together? It makes no sense!

Maybe he honestly thinks that you and Zilla are both scum?

[Kmd4390]

A story or a theory. There's nothing wrong with theories.

[Kmd4390]

Stop making alts that I have to constantly hunt down.

Pfffffffftttt. You won't find me.

What did you think of Camn's post where she mentions everybody? Is this post part of the Camntownmeta?

Yeah. She does that. Sometimes it ends up just being a lurker callout in the same format, but more of "X is lurking, Y needs to die for being lurkerscum, Z is definitely scum for not lurking". It is usually pretty vague though.

And she's posting opinions just to avoid lurking. She hates lurkers, so I can see why she wouldn't want to become one regardless of alignment.

I don't see Camn as scummy yet, but it's still early.

[Kmd4390]

If you're saying my defense of my meta that you need to actually look at the context of the game is weak, I'm assuming you agree that my meta "implicates" me somehow. You weren't being specific, so I asked why you thought my meta impicated me.

I'm not taking your meta into account at all because it's too inconsistent. It doesn't implicate you and it doesn't clear you.

Why are you coaching Mykonian? Why would you overlook a poor defense? If you follow your logic, you would be suspicious of Mykonian on the grounds that he claimed the WIFOM of bussing being impossible. Saying you're not suspicious of him is trying to avoid the flak you'd catch for backing out of being suspicious about him. I don't see town justifying that they weren't suspicious of somebody like this.

Um, no. I'm not suspicious of people every time they do something that I disagree with. I don't

actually

think there is enough evidence to say who was bussing who or anything at this point and I have yet to see a solid case on Myko.

Nice try, scum.

Now, a weak case in that on this page, KMD again coaches Mykonian over his attack on VP Baltar. I don't like how Mykonian did a 180 because KMD gave his accusation a different label, between "story" and "theory." The exchange of posts 160-162 is odd to say the least. Why does calling it a theory make his 160 statements suddenly void, and why does that offer "insight" any more than a story would?

Stories are completely made up by scum. Theories are what townies believe to be true.

afatchic, Forest Wolf Governor, has been pierced through the heart.

Good shot.

Mod:

camn's also voting mykonian.

It should be noted that the death of afatchic now places Zilla at L-1. afatchic-scum's posts:

Vote Incognito

Votes obvtown during random stage.

Ninja'd.

doublevote: afatchic

for the same reason as Llamafluff.

Only scum would wanna lynch two people right at the start!

Serious accusation towards Zilla dressed up as a joke.

Not much to analyze unfortunately but at least one scum is dead.

Very minor scumpoints for Incog for being random voted by scum. But VERY minor.

Zilla gets more scumpoints. Afat's Zilla accusation looks more like distancing.

We didn't get much from afat, but that's what I'll take from his flip.

Judo-speculation: Is camn's interest in afatchic solely based on lurking?

Most likely. Camn is a lurker hunter.

@ All: Is not casting a random vote more or less suspect than casting a random vote without jokey reasoning provided? Also, does anyone know if Myk has a history of avoiding voting in the random stage at all?

I've always disliked it when people don't random vote, but the last time I called someone out for it, he was town (Sci in Newbie 734).

Kmd: How do you see Mykonian and the case on him. Please, feel your freest to elaborate.

I'd like to see him express some more suspicion on people, but he seems like townMyko to me.

If you think I'm backpedaling on my stance on Porkens, apply that same logic to KMD regarding Mykonian. He DID suspect Mykonian.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I haven't suspected Myko yet in this game.

And then there's how he didn't like Mykonian's response to the Zilla/Mykonian bussing theory. Either he's coaching Mykonian, or he suspects him.

I disagree with some of his play so far. That doesn't make him scum though.

There was a post that set off my gut. But if I'd comment on it at that point, the player could possibly change his/her approach in this game. If his/her play stays the same, I'll get back to that post.

Also, you posted some quotes in this post from Zilla. Could you state which of them are scummy to you and why?

Um, fair enough I guess.

Anything I've seen as scummy from Zilla, I'be already pointed out.

Also, if you're not a 'full' vig (which you'll have to prove day 2), but a one-shot, expect my vote tomorrow.

You'd vote someone who shot scum? Why?

To let others think that he's town?

Wouldn't the same thing be achieved by killing a goon?

Who says there are goons present?

Are you suggesting that scum have a Governer, Dayvig, and something more powerful? I'm not completely sure what a Governer does, but VP's post suggests that it is powerful

You haven't taken it as viable when I tell you that you're just interpreting my stance on Porkens in your own (wrong) way. Why does this work for KMD?

You SAID that you were partially serious about voting Porkens. I never said Myko was scummy in any way.

[Kmd4390]

I say we lynch mykonian today, and then you can all consider how awesome my case on Zilla is tomorrow.

I say we lynch Zilla today, and then we can all consider how weak the Mykonian case is tomorrow.

I'm not torn on Zilla at all, and I'm not responding to her bs anymore.

She keeps attacking EVERYONE that is/was voting her.

I've seen

zero scumhunting

, just these

ridiculous

defenses.

ZILLA,

YOUR VOTE WAS SERIOUS

. THEN YOU CHANGED YOUR STORY. END OF DISCUSSION.

That is why I'm lynching you. I'm not debating this any more.

Underlined the lies. You can say I "changed my story" if you want, because I did say I wasn't serious at all when there was a modicrum of seriousness in it.

Now prove how this makes me scum.

So it's a lie that the vote was serious or you didn't say you were serious at all or what?

I'm honestly lost on whether or not you are calling it a serious vote now.

Zilla, charter:

In this quote war like in every other quote war in the game of Mafia, there comes a point of diminishing returns. charter, I think everyone understands your beef with Zilla. It's been drilled in our heads. Zilla, you've defended yourself already as best as you could. I don't see any need to continue these long drawn out posts where you just continue bashing each other. It only serves to make the thread more unreadable. Please stop. Thanks.

Guys, I think I found Zilla's buddy.

You want Charter to stop trying to push his top suspect when Myko's wagon is picking up steam faster than Zilla's. If Charter stops attacking, and Zilla stops defending, the attention shifts to Myko and Zilla is safe another day.

But I think you knew that.

And then:

I'd prefer if Charter were an active and productive member of town at least.

This looks a little like a "hey, they're gonna think you're defending me. Tone it down."

You only get to say this on a technicality. You implied that you suspected Mykonian.

I think an important question is, Why don't you suspect Mykonian?

Another important question is, what exactly is your case on me?

I didn't imply suspicion on Myko at all. I've questioned his logic a few times and disagreed with him a little, but I fail to see how that makes him scum.

I see no reason to suspect him. He hasn't done anything that I find scummy yet.

The case on you is your rolefishing vote, the story change, blaming it on reactions (from Plum), calling the vote partially serious, and OMGUS attacking a few people. That's most of it. I probably missed some things, but that's the major part of the case.

"I would NEVER eat snails!"
"It's called escargot."
"Ooh! Let me try that!"

Actually, if someone didn't know that snails (stories) were normally eaten as escargot (theories), they

would

naturally react in a way that they wouldn't eat them. But once they learn that they are eaten as escargot (theories), they are more likely to try them.

I have nothing more to add today. I will try and find Zilla's partner based on voting patterns tomorrow.

It's Incog.

Read him in isolation. He questioned Zilla pretty softly early on and focused on Myko while he was doing so.

[Kmd4390]

KMD, how are you confused, and WHERE DID I EVER SAY I WAS SERIOUS? And why are you "finding scumbuddies" of mine before I've even flipped? As for the case:

You said you were "25% serious" and that you told me you weren't serious just for Plum's reaction.

I saw a connection between you and Incog. If you are scum, I'll look at him next.

Seriously? First off, even if it was serious, why does your view that I'm wrong mean that I must be scum? Second, why do you think it's serious?

You said it was serious, or at least partially. It doesn't matter if you are "wrong". It's that you would consider his actions to be fishing when that's obviously not what he was doing.

Easy case to make, but a bad premise. Hello, Charter.

Read my posts. I've already shown this.

Lolwut?

You said you were looking for Plum's reaction.

And this is scummy how?

Well, ignoring the fact that you are now denying the seriousness of it, it's scummy because it's very rare that a vote can have a gray area as far as how serious it is. Either you are jokevoting or your vote is serious.

Lolwut? I won't deny I OMGUS'd, but that was the point of being a target in the first place; I wanted to see where opportunistic scum are making their case.

Looking for reactions isn't a reason to be scummy. Of course people will jump on you for being scummy. Doesn't make them all scum.

And you call that case enough to make me obvscum?

Yes.

I think it's possible Incognito is buddying up to me in an attempt to look town, because yes, he's actually using his head, which apparently a few players aren't capable of here, but at least he's reading the thread and actively hunting scum, and even if his pro-town act is a charade, at least it looks pro-town, which is better than the scumbuckets Mykonian, VP, Llama, and KMD, and loads better than lazy tunneler Charter, and even better than lurker ZazieR and scant-poster Plum.

And you think Incog is scum who is buddying up or town who is playing well? Pick one.

KMD, answer the same thing VP has to answer: Is Incognito scummy regardless of my alilgnment?

I don't have a case on Incog. So I have to say no. He really isn't.

[Kmd4390]

You said you were "25% serious" and that you told me you weren't serious just for Plum's reaction.

There is seriousness in your accusation. I don't care how much. It's a serious vote, not a random vote or a joke vote. You told me that it wasn't serious when I asked originally. Then you later said that you told me that to get Plum's reaction.

At the very least, you can admit that you see I was only PARTIALLY serious.

No. Either you are serious or you are joking. You weren't joking.

It doesn't matter if you are "wrong". It's that you would consider his actions to be fishing when that's obviously not what he was doing.

this is scummy how?

Because you are painting townie actions as scummy. He obviously wasn't fishing. He was asking for clarification which was a good thing.

Lolwut?

You said you were looking for Plum's reaction.

Yet again, this is scummy how?

Looking for reactions isn't a reason to lie about your vote.

And this is scummy how?

Well, ignoring the fact that you are now denying the seriousness of it, it's scummy because it's very rare that a vote can have a gray area as far as how serious it is. Either you are jokevoting or your vote is serious.

Even you have to know how weak this is, which makes me wonder why you're still pushing it.

I disagree.

Looking for reactions isn't a reason to be scummy. Of course people will jump on you for being scummy. Doesn't make them all scum.

Come on, what are you doing here? This isn't even an accusation. Are you saying scum won't jump on easy prey? If you are, then we must agree to disagree. If you're saying I think everyone who jumped on my case is scum, you haven't been reading the thread and are reciting Charter/VP's mantra that I'm blindly OMGUS-ing everywhere.

Yeah, scum will jump on an easy target

if you are town

, but you can't say that a good townie won't spot scumminess and jump all over it as well.

No, you haven't jumped on "everyone" who has accused you, but most of your accusations

are

OMGUS. Not "blindly OMGUS-ing everywhere", but OMGUSing.

And you call Mykonian's case weak?

Yep.

Here we go again. I'm saying it's still possible for him to be scum. I personally believe he's town playing well.

Way to leave the option open in case you have to bus him though.

Then what's the point of pairing him with me?

Um, because the connection fits? I don't get what you are saying here. Because he hasn't been scummy on his own yet, he can't be your scumbuddy?

Why are you so worried about it anyway? I only see Incog as scum if you are. If you never flip scum, I don't have a case on Incog. So if you are town, or if you are scum but not with Incog, there's no problem for you here.

Zilla has a scum theory for 7 people. Discounting herself, and afatchic, and Porkens, that leaves us with camn. camn just moved up in scumminess.

Lynch Zilla.

Hmm. Good point here. I personally see Camn as town other than this, but if Zilla flips scum, I'll look closer.

Kmd4390:

I'm still not really sure what to think of him at this time. I've only played with him in one game which happened nearly a year ago back when he was new to the site, but I don't recall him being as tunnel-visioned in that game as he has been here (he was town there). I'm really not a fan of his recent accusation that I'm scum if Zilla is scum because I really can't see how in post 248 he could interpret my post 240 as a Zilla-scum buddy who's trying to bring down the attack against her. I was pretty clearly arguing that with the constant back-and-forths of the same point being argued over and over again between charter and Zilla, the thread is likely becoming more and more unreadable which actually

hurts

town rather than helps it. And his interpretation of Zilla's quote is bizarre as well, along with his new stance on page 11 where he argues that he doesn't even find me scummy at all. So why did you pair Zilla and I together? How did you interpret my posts early in the game and on page 10 as soft questions and then protection of a Zilla-scum buddy?

ZazieR and camn:

I know both of you have a lot more experience playing with Kmd than I do -- what's your read of him so far?

That's interesting. I feel I tunneled on BB and LLH pretty hard in Newbie 635.

And I'm trying not to tunnel here. I see Zilla as scum and Myko as town. Those are the leading wagons and we have short days due to the deadline rules. So I'm pushing Zilla over Myko. I'll look in other places once Zilla is dead.

The connection is a subtle defense. Not a direct defense, but you are asking BOTH Charter and Zilla to stop going back and forth. This allows the discussion to fade and the Myko discussion takes over.

Also, Llama, Charter, and Plum have played more with me than Camn has. Plum hasn't really seen me as town in a finished game yet though (exceptions=Zelda where I couldn't keep up and Double Head where I was paired with Zazie). VP has seen me about as much as Camn too. If you want reads from people who have played with me, I'd ask Llama, Charter, and Zazie.

Kmd:

your read of ZazieR so far?

She seems to be playing differently lately (not just here), so it's hard to say. The whole Porkens being scum for killing scum thing seems weird. I can actually follow her logic, but I just can't see scum going way out of their way to make themselves look good like that. Especially on Day 1 where they don't have any idea of what they'll be facing (SK, fact that they aren't dying at night if they are the only killers, etc). The only way Porkens makes sense as scum is if he is a daykilling SK (rare) or a different scum group than Afat (also probably not likely). So while I disagree with Zazie, I think she is probably trying to think logically and probably town.

mykonian, VP, and KMD: what's your read of LF?

He doesn't seem like himself. He likes to control the game regardless of alignment. Here, he hasn't really done that. He seems to actually be

avoiding

attention, which is not like Llama at all. I don't know if this makes him a likely SK or what, but it's definitely not townLlama OR ScumLlama that I've seen before.

I have in no way stated that these people are likely or even definitely scum with one another like you or Kmd have done in the past.

Why ignore Charter drawing up a connection between Zilla and Camn?

First person to pick out Porkens' dayvig soft claim AND to announce it in-thread when she was at L-2 when that could have easily gotten another 2 people to vote her for a lynch after an afatchic-scum just got shot? Maybe I'm being naive, and she could be EXTREMELY ballsy scum, but I doubt that.

How is that ballsy? A daykill is one of those things where if you ignore it, something is up. Of course she's going to comment on it.

KMD has it right in that my meta is inconclusive. That's what I aim for. Mykonian evidently hasn't looked at my town games with context, which tells me he's either being extremely lazy or he thinks he can get away with his shoddy case.

Wait. Why did you try to use meta as a defense if it's inconclusive?

Woah, I just reread Charter's part in the recently ended Monopoly Mafia, and that paints an entirely different picture of Charter. This tunnelvision is way more like his Family Guy tunneling. In Monopoly, he didn't have blinders on, and even people he said were obv-town (Gamma) ended up on his scum list at the end of the day.

Go read Mini 672 and tell me Charter doesn't tunnel as town.

I still have warm and fuzzy feelings about Charter from our last game together where he NAILED a well-concealed KMD-scum with his tunnelvision. So I'd hesitate to rely exclusively on his meta for the scum rating.

That game hurt.

(True story, I don't IC anymore because of it.)

One last thing:

Off-topic banter:

I've decided that I'd probably pay really good money to see Zilla beating her chest the way charter suggested.

There's always YouTube!

[Kmd4390]

KMD: opinoins on VP?

KMD: Why can't there be intermediate levels of seriousness?

KMD: Where did your brain go this game?

Your case is based on me trying to get a reaction from plum. You're just as bad as charter if you think that makes me scum.

VP looks like his townie self. The only thing that bothers me is that he is suspicious of both you and Myko, which is a convenient position for scum to be in.

Seriousness is either there or it isn't. That's just how it works.

If you think all I have on you is that you wanted Plum's reaction, you haven't read the case. You've responded, so I know you've read it. Try again.

(I'll take the "as bad as Charter" thing as a compliment. He's a good player.)

As far as "painting a townie as scum" where do you see me pushing a porkens case?

You voted him for "rolefishing".

Basically, KMD's case also seems to hinge on "town can't make gambits," since apparently trying to get reactions out of players is scummy.

Yep, I just said that town doesn't make Gambits, right?

Don't make my case out to be built on things I don't believe. I know a good Gambit when I see it, and that wasn't one.

KMD says my motivation for voting Porkens for rolefishing was to push a case on a townie, who was doing the right thing. If that was my motivation, why didn't I actually make a case? Why would I POSSIBLY EVER claim that it was a joke vote? That makes no sense.

Then WHY are you still saying now that it was partially serious?

KMD claims my motivation to lie about joke-voting was... what? To evade pressure? That also makes no sense. Look at the timeframe there. There was NO information I could have gleaned that would have made me change my mind about so-called "pushing" porkens. I still think his reaction was suspicious. If I was pushing Porkens at all, why would I flake just because someone asked if I was serious?

It was obvious I was about to give you heat for the vote. So you tried to back off and got caught.

KMD claims my motivation for revealing that there was a modicum of seriousness in my vote was... THAT I HAD TO BE EITHER COMPLETELY SERIOUS OR COMPLETELY JOKING BECAUSE THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND. Apparently in KMD's black and white world, nobody can do something "kinda fishy." Either an action is totally town, or totally scum. Having any indecision means you are scum, because NOBODY has indecision.

If I had the time, I'd look at all games and show you that partially serious votes come from scum and inexperienced players.

By this point, if KMD is still pushing the same case, he's not playing as town.

Of course.

Marker: I have just now created a post that I may post later. This will serve as a reference point to when I actually typed that post. I've decided it is best not to post it until I have more information, so pending KMD and Mykonian's response, I'll withhold posting it until they have responded to my last few posts.

Is there a purpose for this post?

Kmd, you are tunnelling a lot on Zilla and it's over the same points again and again and again. The only really new thing you've added to the case is this Incog as potential partner accusation, which you yourself admit means nothing right now. If Zilla weren't in this game, who would you vote right now?

If she defends and I disagree with the defense, I'm going to counter her points and it may seem repetitive. That's how it works.

If not Zilla, I'd look at Plum or Llama. Neither of the two is playing to their town meta. I've mentioned this before.

This could mean that there are two scum groups, based upon SpyreX previous modded game.

Two groups? Why?

Based on this, I say that there's 50% chance he's scum

Those are good odds in mafia.

[Kmd4390]

Two groups? Why?

Scum are coloured in red and have the name of their role included, but there is no name of the mafia.

Very interesting. In that game, afat would have simply flipped as "Governer".

I see your point.

[Kmd4390]

Basically, KMD's case also seems to hinge on "town can't make gambits," since apparently trying to get reactions out of players is scummy.

Yep, I just said that town doesn't make Gambits, right?

You MUST be being sarcastic here.......right?
Cuz I have seen you try "gambits" as town....

The should indicate sarcasm.

Don't make my case out to be built on things I don't believe. I know a good Gambit when I see it, and that wasn't one.

DO YOU????
I have also see you fail hugely at differentiating a good gambit from a poor one . .

Let's not talk about that.

By this point, if KMD is still pushing the same case, he's not playing as town.

Of course.

This MUST be you being sarcastic!
Cuz I have ALSO see you push a single crapcase for an entire game.... as town.
HOWEVER.. I would imagine you had learned from that.. so it could easily be coverup-scum-meta.

Hey, my case on you in 672 may have been horribly wrong, but I didn't think it was crap. I pushed you as scum because I thought I was right.

Any other opinions or are we just going to discuss whether I've been sarcastic or not and look back at 672?

guys, I'm of course very happy that a lot of people have their votes out, but I kind of know how this is going to end. Because

we aren't playing like we have a deadline in a few days

, and on this moment my bandwagon is big enough to make lynch me just before deadline.

If anyone isn't playing like there's a deadline, it's you. You switched from Zilla, who was at L-3, to VP, who had no votes.

(Also a towntell IMO because Myko is the most likely lynch and Zilla is next most likely. No one would have questioned him for staying on Zilla.)

Also, people need to realize this. If we don't reach a majority at deadline, we no lynch. The way things stand, Mykonian is our lynch. I don't want to see that happen. The most important thing in the next few days is that everyone stays active.

Wait. Myko, it's not a few days. It's almost a week.

Well, still. When the deadline comes around, keep in mind that we NEED a majority to lynch. Stay active. Everyone.

Incog, you are currently voting Llama (and are the only one doing so). Who is a better lynch between Myko and Zilla?

Zazie/Llama/Porkens, why no vote? I'm especially curious about Llama, who I KNOW prefers for everyone to always have a vote out.

[Kmd4390]

You pretty clearly stated that you support the case against Zilla, you ended up voting for mykonian, and you said that you think the two of them are scum together. That pretty clearly seems to suggest that you supported their lynches equally. If you think two people are equally likely to be scum, what could

possibly

make you prefer one lynch over the other?

Major FoS: VP Baltar

This is a weak accusation/FoS. The question you ask stands out. What could make you prefer one lynch over the other? That is obvious as hell. Players can be more sure about one than the other. Or can be basing one suspicion a connection. Or don't want to lynch someone they think is scummy because they are an uncountered claimed power role. Or one is scummier than the other. The fact that you would ask that question really stands out as scummy.

[Kmd4390]

Incog, I looked back at what VP said when he switched:

While I support the Zilla case, I don't think it's necessary to finish the day so quickly. I would particularly like to look at mykonian, particularly the potential for him to be Zilla's scumbuddy.

He didn't want the day to end yet, so he switched to Myko.

VP, sorry if this was already asked, but would you still support a Zilla lynch?

[Kmd4390]

You're right. He backtracked and used a terrible argument (obviously scum like to stay off of quicklynches to avoid suspicion).

Still, the question you asked doesn't fit though. Of course this partially depends on VP's response, so I'll wait on that to comment further.

Talking about multiple scum groups

isn't

a distraction. It would mean that not all scum have to be connected to Afat. If someone looks scummy, but looks like there's no way they are afat's buddy, they can still be scum. Ok, so we don't have many connections to afat this early. But if anything comes up, and we've determined what is most likely, it can help us out a lot later.

[Kmd4390]

Plum, you are usually very active and very wordy. I see that you are catching up now, but lurking just didn't seem like you.

[Kmd4390]

could it be that a short deadlined game makes Llama play different?

No. That wouldn't be it.

He has a well thought out reason for playing the way he is.

[Kmd4390]

Actually, in an active game, lurking stands out

more

. Especially when you are known as an active player.

But it's not lurking that has me worried about Llama. Well, actually, I guess that's part of it. He isn't controlling the game. He's not saying "ok, here's who we're lynching. Back off of this person and vote for this person". And most importantly, he doesn't have a vote out.

I'm not sure it's scummy as much as it's... weird...

[Kmd4390]

Ok, I'm willing to accept Plum's lurking as being busy. I've been scum with Plum before anyway and she definitely didn't lurk there.

Incog, I think Llama is a better player than to do this just because of who is in the game. I'm sure there is a logical reason for his play. I'm just trying to figure out what alignment it is coming from. Be careful of thinking something is scummy just because you don't understand it.

[Kmd4390]

So you say he tunnels as town and Zilla says he tunnels as scum. You both may be right. If all he's doing is tunneling, basically, how do you propose to go about reading him (note: I plan to do analysis of Charter at my earliest convenience, probably tomorrow night. The Llama analysis may have to wait until then too; sorry).

He does tunnel as both (but even more as town). My point was that tunneling is not a scumtell when you look at Charter.

[Kmd4390]

[qupte="Zilla"]KMD was deliberately baiting with his question on my stance on Incognito[/quote]

Well, if I think he's your buddy, I'm obviously going to look into it some more.

OMGUS is null

Do you HONESTLY believe this? If so, then wow. Just...wow.

he has ignored half of the players

In a game that moves as quickly as Spy's games, I'm going to take a few suspects, find which is scummiest, and push like hell all day. See ANY game I've played on SA for evidence of this.

he's turned a blind eye to Mykonian because "he doesn't see a case" on him, and instead of actually investigating and making his own decicsion, he asks for other people to lay out a better case for him

Not true. I actually am defending Myko. Not turning a blind eye because I don't see a case. Defending because I'm convinced he is town.

Huge scumtell; it avoids accountability in the event that Mykonian is town, it buddies to Mykonian if Mykonian is town, it defends Mykonian if Mykonian is scum, and it shows that he isn't interested in actual scumhunting

I'm not avoiding accountability at all. If Myko is scum, I come out looking terrible. If he's town, someone can still make the "Kmd knew he was town and going to be lynched, so he defended" argument". I don't see how this would help me if I were scum.

And LOL at not interested in scumhunting. I'm pretty sold on you being scum, so I'm pushing that. VP is next in line because of his vote being on Myko over you for pretty much BS reasons. If you flip scum, I look at Incog and Camn closer. I'm trying to figure out Llama. I looked at Plum briefly. To say I am not scumhunting or I am tunneling is completely BS.

Yes, the logical extension is that Charter, if he were pulling the same gambit, would be tunneling on scum-partner Zilla, BUT I'm highly suspicious that KMD didn't mention this at all.

Heh, I actually forgot that ZONE was scum too. But I see Charter as town, so why would I mention the thought of him bussing here?

Both KMD and Llama were alive up to the end of Family Guy, whereas I died right in the very middle section of the game. This means they were exposed to Charter's tunneling even more.

If anything, he tunneled on

himself

in the end. He claimed scum, told the SK to No Lynch, backed off of his scum claim, got lynched, and lost.

His lockjaw in this game is VERY similar to his scum game in Family Guy, and completeley dissimilar to his (recently finished) town game in Monopoly Mafia.

Know what else it's similar to? His attacks on Nameless (town) in Mini 672 where he was town and on Me (town) in Newbie 744.

Town-charter comes out of his tunnel and at least looks around. Scum-charter would be more aptly called... boring? (as in the kind with a bore, not the inuninteresting kind). I prefer "lockjaw" for this.

Town-charter, even when he is convinced someone is scum, will continue to hunt scum. Scum-charter sinks his vote and, again, doesn't even look anywhere else.

Town-charter is more responsive. Scum-charter has a vendetta and an attitude problem.

Sounds like your experience with Charter is FAR from being the same as mine.

I'd be reluctant on a Charter lynch because there's only one point to be made against him.

Then why are you pushing that point so hard? And which point is the one point you are referring to? Tunneling? His meta? "Lockjaw"?

Camn, what's your read of VP?

OMGBAITING!

Or is that only when I ask the same question to you about Incog?

[Kmd4390]

He hasn't even defended against my case, instead making paltry points against me. I think there's a name for that but it escapes me now.

All you did is defend yourself and call it a case. So I countered by showing why my points were valid. Guess I'm scum for it though.

Note: Not on speaking terms with KMD until he defeats my defense or at least starts actually scumhunting.

That is probably THE MOST anti-town thing you could have said.

Yeah, but it's the same arguments again and again. 'was she serious or not?' 'her reasons for voting myk weren't great'. etc. It doesn't seem like you are gaining any ground in your questioning when you could easily move on to Plum or Llama and get some new information in the game.

Her defense hasn't convinced me. I still think she is scum, and I'm going to keep pushing her lynch.

Less so, especially since she got out of her overly defensive mode and started doing more scumhunting.

Ok, I was going to say backing off of the Zilla suspicion would be scummy, but you have reasons for it and it's acceptable.

And one more woman is disappointed by Baltar in bed.

Way to make the joke before I have the chance.

-- It's really really creepy how many people are ignoring the scumminess of LlamaFluff here.

This is probably my biggest concern in this game.

He is playing completely against his meta, but the minute I point that out, he goes for a Llama-style case on VP. So I think it was somehow intentional that he was playing the way he was and he backed off of whatever he was doing when he was playing more reserved for whatever reason. He seemed to back off because he was seen as scummy for it. My original thought, while I wasn't going to say so, was that he was a jester. I am sure this isn't the case now because he took action to avoid looking scummy instead of accepting the lynch that was probably going to come. He's probably scum who was trying a new strategy. When it backfired, he went after VP like Llama would normally do. Note that this isn't a towntell on VP because Llama has bussed in the past.

I'll go out on a limb and say I'd lynch Llama today. I'm rarely ok with lynching him on Day 1, but I'd be fine with it here. Something is off in his play.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, without a reread, I would say that I find Kmd's tunnelling on you to be unlike what I have seen from him as town before. I would normally expect him to cast a wider net in his scum hunting. He also agreed with Incog a bit about me "backtracking", but never came after me too hard about it.

I haven't forgotten your backtracking.

I have expressed suspicion on Zilla, you, Llama, Incog, Camn, and Plum (although I'm not suspicious of Plum anymore now). Yes, Incog and Camn mostly depend on Zilla. Even then, I have 3 suspects. There are probably 3 or 4 scum in the game. I don't think I am wrong to suspect three players.

Do I think that is enough to lynch off of? Probably not. I would definitely prefer a mykon or Llama lynch before a Kmd lynch.

I could back a Llama lynch. Not Myko.

On the comment you made about "hypo-cases"---that's not how I work. If someone asks me to review a player, I like to look at them objectively in iso and if something sticks out, then I'll comment. If nothing sticks out, then I'll let you know. I don't like having to come out here and state gut reactions that I might not want to stand by when I take a closer look at someone. I understand that you don't want someone to flake out of doing something they said they would, but if I did that I would probably be getting lynched anyhow, so you don't have to worry about it.

There is nothing wrong with looking closer at a player. The thing is that you should already have some kind of a read on a player if you are town. I'm not saying you always act completely based on that read without ever looking at anything else, but the initial read should be there for town. Scum don't have this because all they are doing is finding reasons to lynch townies. I'm thinking that's probably the point being made against you. You don't have an initial read which would indicate that you are scum.

I'd like to see ZazieR and Porkens place some votes down. Not voting all day is completely unacceptable.

QFT.

Notice how Llama voted VP when I called him on it. The other thing I called him on was being passive. So he came out with his VP case. I mean, I know he did what I asked which should be a good thing. But it seems that his VP case was just to avoid suspicion..

He's closest to lynch.

Is he scummy or just close to a lynch?

KMD, state your case on me, again.

I've done so several times. I guess it can't hurt to do so one more time though.

-Voted Porkens for a crap reason
-Lied about the vote being serious by plainly stating it wasn't.
-Later admitted 25% truth to it, but still only partially serious
-Claimed to have never said the vote was serious
-changed your story
-backpedaled when caught
-acted scummy "for reactions"
-OMGUS

I think that's it.

[Kmd4390]

KMD is being forced to bus scumbuddy VP. I'll lynch either of them.

You're right that my stance changed when I saw his weird vote for Myko over you. Wrong reason though. Sorry.

Oh, I forgot to mention: Bolded are KMD's defenses of VP, blues contradict each other (DIRECTLY), and underlines contradict each other.

No, the second blue is me saying that the first blue is BS.

KMD never contested how this was scummy; I showed that there was clearly no scum intent in this because I didn't push any case on Porkens, and if I ever had that intention, I wouldn't have flaked just because someone asked if I was serious.

But it was a serious vote for a crap reason.

KMD again didn't answer how this was true; continually holds onto the belief that there are only two states: 100% serious and 100% joking. It's preposterousness, and I even linked to another vote in Family Guy that was the exact same thing as my vote here: my vote on Puta Puta for bandwagoning.

I don't believe in half-jokes for votes

-Later admitted 25% truth to it, but still only partially serious

KMD never answers how this is scummy.

Go to the first 14 and a half times I answered this.

-Claimed to have never said the vote was serious

Show me where I said it was, WITHOUT using your slant that 25% = 100%.

That's not the point. You admitted at least partial seriousness. Any seriousness behind a vote for rolefishing when he asked you to verify your claim is BS.

-changed your story

Doubling up points to try to spin the case.

-backpedaled when caught

Tripling up points to spin the case again.

What?

-acted scummy "for reactions"

I did roughly the same thing Incognito did when he voted for no reason, yet KMD said he had absolutely no case on Incognito aside from him being my scumbuddy, meaning this isn't any reason why he voted me; just something he feels he can tack on. This is also his point that "town can't make gambits."

Also, I specifically said who I was looking for reactions from, and what I specifically did to incur those reactions. Here, he tries embellishing it as if I was being obvscum to try to get reactions out of everyone.

Where did Incog do anything scummy for reactions? I missed that?

And I never said town doesn't make gambits without sarcasm. I know they can. I've tried it before. I pulled a pretty good one on Nuwen in a Marathon Game. Hell, I've claimed scum as town. Saying your vote is a jokevote when it isn't is NOT a Gambit.

Why does it matter how many people you want reactions from? It's still the same thing.

-OMGUS

I provided reasoning that OMGUS is town, which is uncontested (just a "it's sad you think OMGUS is town.) Further, I have not been blindly OMGUSing. FURTHERMORE, using KMD's logic, aggressive scum are untouchable because in order to win, they just have to be the first person to vote or voice suspicion on someone because obviously anyone who examines them and finds them scummy is just OMGUS voting.

OMGUS is NOT a towntell.

No, if someone comes out of the gate attacking everyone, it's scummy on their part. And if you had points against me other than "this is his case on me, he's scum", I'd say it's not OMGUS. Oh, that and I'm supposedly tunneling when I have 3 players who I'd be willing to lynch today.

KMD

tunnels. Plays not very town, as expected.

1, how am I tunneling?
2, what does this even mean?

[Kmd4390]

Also what questions am I missing according to you except the fairly obvious "Who was I thinking was scum?"

Llama, it's not that you are missing questions. It's that you aren't the one asking questions. You are NOT a passive player. But here, you are. Why? You need to finally address this or you're gonna end up lynched.

[Kmd4390]

I have expressed suspicion on Zilla, you, Llama, Incog, Camn, and Plum

Like you said, Incog and Camn can't really count. I don't think you've been very forceful with either myself or Plum. That leaves Zilla, who you have vehement about, and Llama, who you have gone after a bit more than the remainder of the lineup. It's a bit narrower of a path that I would expect from you.

I said in that very post that Incog and Camn don't count and I dropped my suspicions on Plum. I'm left with Zilla, Llama, and you.

VP, what did I do in the game we played together? Next to nothing early in the game, re-read everyone, found Raider scummy, and pushed his lynch all day. He was your scumbuddy and you killed me that night. So what is different about my play here? Well, I'm more active obviously. And I'm looking at a couple of other players, and not just the one I find scummiest like I did there.

The thing is that you should already have some kind of a read on a player if you are town.

Didn't I clearly state my general opinion of you and Llama in that post?

Did you? Quote please.

[Kmd4390]

short version of what you are accused of. You are quite busy with zilla. You were expected to look more town. But as I stated, I think I'm missing/not understanding things here.

So the case on me is that I'm scumhunting and am scummy? How do I defend against that?

Open 122 you were quite actively questioning hewitt, ac1983fan, dejkha, Ztife and Rin Twisted on Day 1 (you were on all three scum! good job, no wonder you Nk'ed N1).

Actually, Rin was my Zilla. I was on Rin pretty hard. (By the way, this game is another where I tried a "Gambit" by asking everyone to post their scum meta and attacking the player who refused to do so).

I attacked ac pretty hard too, so you're right on that one.

Zt, I asked for clarification on whether his vote was a jokevote or a serious vote. I didn't see him as scum at that time. I don't see where I attacked either hewitt or dejkha on Day 1.

I would disagree with your assesment of Newbie 696 too. You had a slightly wider variety of suspects early in the game. Yes, you did latch on to Raider when you thought you had scum, but you also made posts like this before that happened. Again, we see a wide net.

That post was where I got my thoughts from.

And in that post, I call Raider scum and have a "slight" scum read on Raz. I pushed Raider's lynch all day.

Then there is Tranquility, where you start on camn and move to DraketheFake, stormer and Stef in Day 1. Again, we see a wider net here.

I don't think you read this game closely enough. I defended stormer extremely hard which was used as a point against me. I voted Stef as a Gambit which failed because he was scum, so of course opportunistic scum didn't jump on the seemingly strong case. Drake, I may have suspected (I don't remember). Camn, I latched onto all game.

That's basically where I'm coming from when I say I think you are tunneling a bit more in this game than I have seen you as town in the past.

Seems you change your opinion from those games to this one on what you consider to be expressing suspicion. You said I was suspicious of players I hardly looked at there. But in this game, the only one of my suspicions you are willing to accept as suspicion is the one on Zilla. You seem to be either twisting my meta for your benefit or misunderstanding it severely.

[Kmd4390]

@kmd-well, we can have Incog and Zazier comment on 696, since they were in that game as well.

Open 122 you were actively questioning hewitt early in the day. Maybe not carrying the banner for his lynch, but you were questioning him. I do agree however that you were on Rin the hardest (I actually thought it was a good argument).

Tranquility I may have wrong because I was skimming your posts in iso and therefore didn't have a lot of context. I did read that game, but that was while we were playing 696 and I don't remember a lot from it. Charter was your mason partner in that game, correct? he can comment then if he agrees with your analysis.

However, I would say that you did have serious votes on stormer, Stef and camn on day 1. Even if you later defended stormer and were gambiting on Stef, it would show that you were at least suspicious of people other than your main target of camn.

ITT, you put your vote on Zilla in your third post and it hasn't moved since.

She hasn't convinced me she is town.

And again Llama posts without addressing his obviously intentional change in playstyle.

[Kmd4390]

Im not playing entirely against every meta I have. I am trying to not take control of a game though when I dont have any scum reads, only town ones.

This doesn't sound like you...

I wanted to see if you were going to dig yourself into any bigger hole then what I saw coming from you over your reasoning between choosing one case over the other when they seemed to be of equal merit to you. Apparently if I am going to change playstyle I need to go make an alt.

Or you just say that you are trying a new playstyle.

What advantage is there to the style you have chosen over your own?

[Kmd4390]

Im not really having as much fun, but if someone has a better idea of whats going on, I would rather let them help. If I really dont have a good read going in aggressive mode will more likely get in the way then be a benificial.

Why not look closer until you are more confident in your reads. I know you are a good player. It's not showing in this game.

[Kmd4390]

There, Kmd, long and wordy enough for you? Don't worry, you've got onto my list of players to investigate. And yes, I wish I had more/better town meta on you.

Yeah, pretty wordy. There's the Plum I know.

If you need meta, it's all in my wiki. (Please ignore the fact that the statistics show that I suck as town. )

[Kmd4390]

I'll ask again. How am I tunneling?

[Kmd4390]

Nobody told me to look at VP. Incog made a valid point. I agreed with it and can see him as scum.

Llama looks scummy, so I am suspicious of him and considering voting him.

My vote hasn't moved because you are still my top suspect.

[Kmd4390]

It's total BS that you looked at VP yourself. You only looked at him because Incognito challenged you to back up your claim that his

FOS

was unwarranted.

I originally read him as town, so I didn't comment much and even softly defended. I saw a valid point against him, looked closer, and read scum.

You also totally backtracked on your suspicion on Incognito.

What? My suspicion on him is a connection to you. If you flip scum, I'll look at him. Until then, I don't see him as scummy yet.

I hate to be charter, but why aren't we lynching KMD?

Because your case amounts to a defense combined with you telling me I'm tunneling basically because you think my suspicions are weak for whatever reason. Who knows, maybe I even have your buddies.

Zilla (1): Charter, Kmd4390

VP Baltar (4): Mykonian, Plum, Llamafluff, Porkens

With 11 alive, it is 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday June 11th 10:30 PST

Deadline is in a few days.

Unvote, Vote VP Baltar

Zilla only has 2 votes and probably won't be lynched. A no lynch would suck. VP, that's L-1. Claim or die.

One thing I would like you to note about your case is how much you have to use the words "implies" and "seems to" to reach your conclusions about me. The fact is that the case on me requires a lot of assuming about what my motives may have been. I suggest you weigh all the leading wagons objectively and just take the time to consider the possiblity that you could be wrong about what my intentions "seem to be".

Um, isn't that what the entire town of every mafia game is doing? Assuming motives to find scum?

Mod:

Do you do prods? If so, can you prod ZazieR?

She's made like 2000 posts elsewhere since she last posted here. I don't want to hear anymore excuses about cheating on a boyfriend or whatever else she concocts. If you sign up for a game then play the damn game or request replacement if you can't handle it. I do

NOT

want a repeat of Newbie 696. Thanks.

I'll update this thread later today when I get some work done at work.

Relax. Seriously.

Is KMD always someone who is eager to point at lurking?

Depends on the situation.

[Kmd4390]

KMD votes VP just as soon as someone suggests lynching Zaz...

You'd rather try to run up a wagon on a relatively townie player (aside from the theory that you bus-vidged) with no votes instead of a scummy player (my 3rd suspect) at L-2?

I disagree.

[Kmd4390]

KMD votes VP just as soon as someone suggests lynching Zaz...

You'd rather try to run up a wagon on a relatively townie player (aside from the theory that you bus-vidged) with no votes instead of a scummy player (my 3rd suspect) at L-2?

I disagree.

wrong answer? going around her name? You could have said that more protown...

I don't care how I say it. I refuse to no lynch. Zilla isn't gonna be lynched. VP might. VP is scummy too.

I have no interest in trying to run up a Zazie wagon out of nowhere.

[Kmd4390]

Would anyone who has played with Plum before comment on her play here? I like the fact that she agrees with me about a lot of stuff, but eh, it gets me kinda nervous at the same time. Does she do this often?

Do what? Agree with you?

She seems to be herself, just not as active.

[Kmd4390]

No I mean like hang on the coattails of others' arguments. I mean, she does seem to be producing

some

original ideas but a lot of them are ideas or points that have been made before just dressed up in a different tuxedo.

I saw her do that in a lovers game we played together. She backed Crazy 100% that Zazie was scum. Crazy, just before being lynched, called Zazie town. The next day, Plum agreed that Zazie was probably town. Plum was scum in that game by the way.

That's the only time I can remember her blindly agreeing with people. But I don't see where she's done that here.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote, Vote Zilla

VP, Llama is my second suspect. I'd lynch either Zilla or Llama.

VP lives unless he gets countered.

[Kmd4390]

Yeah, when you asked that question, I figured that was what you were getting at. The only werewolf game I've played was Mini 628. The doc was a guardian there if I remember correctly. With vanilla being peasant, I'd expect a doc to be a guardian.

I still don't want to lynch a claimed doc uncountered, but it does seem to be a fakeclaim based on flavor.

By the way, I'm not a doc, so I won't be counterclaiming VP.

[Kmd4390]

One shot doc? Really?

Well, I'm happy. Either my top suspect or my third suspect is scum.

One-shot doc is such a weird claim that first instinct says "SCUM!", but it would make no sense to fake a role like that.

Why would Zilla counter as scum? Maybe she assumes she is going down anyway and might as well take the doc with her? But then why not just take care of him at night and try to save yourself tomorrow.

Unvote, Vote VP Baltar

I just can't think of any reason for Zilla to counter, especially as a one-shot.

[Kmd4390]

I just can't think of any reason for Zilla to counter, especially as a one-shot.

^Meaning if she were scum.

[Kmd4390]

unvote, vote: VP Baltar

Leave it to Porkens to hammer like that.

I'm not gonna call you scum for it this time though.

[Kmd4390]

Well, I'm not sure what the hell VP was doing. May have imitated Mufasa in the Zazie-modded game because Camn said it was a good move. Now thanks to him, we have a claimed doc out. VP is definitely a better player than that.

I do believe Zilla's claim. If she was scum, she'd have thought VP to be a real doc. The one-shot thing is weird, but I can't see her doing it as scum.

So, obviously, I'll

Vote Llama

, my other suspect. His change of play is obviously intentional, and I don't buy that he's trying a new playstyle or that he's too busy. He needs to explain himself or die.

Now that I was wrong about VP and most likely Zilla, I need to look elsewhere. I still think Myko is town. Incog looks townier because all I had on him was a connection to a player I now believe to be town. Porkens is town unless he's a scum dayvig with multiple shots and shot scum. I don't think Charter could be any more obvtown at this point.

Camn... Hmm. Camn. I was thinking about her play last night. It doesn't seem like her. Not as active. Not as ridiculously protown. Not as hard on lurkers. She did make her early "reads on everyone aka who is lurking" post. I always want to call her out for buddying up, but I've seen her do it way too many times as town, so I can ignore that. She layed a lazy vote on Myko and never really came back to that. She's said she suspects me, but not really why. She's put out weak attacks on VP and Llama. She said Llama needed scrutinty, but didn't really give any around the time she said it.

This really has me interested here:

Though I would LOVE to put SOMEBODY at L-1.. I don't really get scum from VP right now.
In fact, it would not surprise me at all to see VP, KMD, and Llama ALL be town...

I really am thinking NOW, that Mykonian, Zazie, and maybe Plum need some more pressure... but I understand that the deadline is going to be on top of us really soon.

She sets herself up to look good pretty much no matter who is lynched by saying she wouldn't be surprised to see VP, Llama, and myself all be town. Three players who SHE SUSPECTED until this post. And she's even come back to suspecting Llama.

Another thing about that post is who she names as scum. Two of those players have flipped town. The other, Myko, is someone who I think is town. Camn, what made you suspect Plum, Zazie, and Myko? Are you still suspicious of Myko? Hell, what had you suspicious of Llama, VP, and myself? What made you change your mind? And now, why are you back on Llama?

Oh, one more interesting tidbit. I was roleblocked last night. I can see it coming from either alignment, but I feel like I should get that out there. I got flavor via Mod-PM (much more common on SA than it is here. I kind of like it, actually). I'll hold off on saying what I tried to do until I have to claim at some point.

I think that's all for now. To recap, I'd support a lynch of either Llama or Camn. If they are both town, I need to seriously look over this game again.

[Kmd4390]

I followed it for the most part. Not as closely as I would have if I was still alive. I was basically reading to see what happened (who was lynched/killed), but not to scumhunt. And to see her flavor.

Why?

[Kmd4390]

Also im a little surprised kmd never noticed that I was playing to my power role meta a bit (which is basically just playing really shitty). This is standard play for me whenever I get anything thats non-vanilla really.

I didn't see you do this as a vig or as a JOAT.

Why did you choose Mykonian for your invention?

Unvote

. You aren't confirmed, but there's no reason to lynch you just yet. I want Myko to confirm that he got an item. And I want to point out that inventor isn't always a town role.

Vote Camn

. My next suspect.

[Kmd4390]

Are you denying that you knew what was going on?

I had no clue VP was going to flip VP. I thought Mufasa made a bad play in that game and didn't think VP would repeat it. Maybe there are positives to it that I don't see because I respect VP as a player. *shrug*. I don't get it, but it is what it is.

My Point?
This GAMBIT, claiming doc as a VT was well understood by VP Balthat

AND BY KMD

, and KMD coming out to re-vote him... especially considering that I had more to say on the issue.. is extremely suspect.

Even if he tries to say that he didn't follow that game (he HAD been killed the night before...)
He knew that Me and VP Balthar were both in that game...
he knew that a Doc fake-claim had happened...
He knew that no real doc should CC...
and

KMD KNEW that VP was town.

But voted him anyway.

I followed the game enough to know that Mufasa fakeclaimed as town (I think I was still alive actually), and I remember you calling it a good play, but I didn't remember VP being ok with it. Like I said, I don't see the benefit as most docs WILL counter in that situation, and DID both times. And both times, the fakeclaiming townie was lynched.

VOTE: KMD

Right after I vote you, you are voting me for not seeing what VP was doing (and I don't even agree with it after the fact)?

plus that KMD started with weak questioning of Llama, ended with making that a vote "because Llama acts weird", and now it suddenly became a big suspect. I would go for KMD.

My Llama vote was not weak AT ALL. He was NOT playing to his meta, and I haven't even seen him play poorly as a power role like he claims. It was extremely suspicious and my other top suspects were either dead or a doc who counterclaimed another. Llama was obviously my top choice at that time. I'm confident that Camn is scum, but I have no clue on her buddy. I need to look.

PLus, KMD, you misrep me slightly here!

My comments RE: not being surprised.. I said that about them BECAUSE they were my suspects! I am always very unsure Day1.

And I

didn't

say I "name as scum" Mykonian, Zazie, and Plum. I listed them as needing more pressure

because of their level of activity

. How you warp my typical lurker-pressure into "THEY ARE SCUM" is beyond me!

Golly, I have a couple more things on KMD.. but I will chill till I see his comments!

Well, my bad then. When you put "town" next to your suspects and "pressure" next to people you don't think are scum, I'll get confused, especially with very little sleep lately.

@Kmd:

Why is charter 'obvtown' to you? Also, which game(s) are you referring to of LF's where you mention that he didn't do this as other town PRs?

Charter is playing exactly to his town meta right now. If he's scum, he's aware of his own meta to the point where he can imitate it perfectly.

Llama didn't play poorly at all in the large Family Guy game as a vig or the Family Guy mini as a JOAT. I can get those links if you'd like.

Camn/Kmd stuff: I don't feel like camn's played too differently from how I'm used to seeing her play as town, and I've modded her as scum before to have that comparison in mind. In fact, I remember Kmd mentioning earlier in Day 1 that he thought camn

was

actually playing similar to how he remembered but now in his case against her, he mentions that he is seeing a contrast from what he remembered. I'm not sure I understand what changed his opinion on her then.

Camn's "opinions on everyone" post that looks more like a "who is lurking?" is something I've seen her do in basically every game I've played with her where she was town. I took that as a towntell and made the mistake of not looking at her play overall. I also ignored her buddying up because she does it as town. Apart from that, her play hasn't looked very strong. She was less active on Day 1 than usual, she didn't back her cases strongly enough, and she seemed more like she was just there and going with the flow than actually playing the game.

I'm also not sure I understand camn's meta-case against Kmd. Camn, was Kmd actually playing in the game when this Vanilla claimed Doc? Did he react differently to that person's Doc claim than he did here?

I think I was alive. I'd have to check to be sure. But I can tell you I don't like to see any town-aligned player fakeclaim. There are VERY few exceptions and trying to draw a NK as a VT is NOT one of them. There are other ways to get NK'd.

THe fact that he re-voted, an in fact allowed a lynch is incredibly suspect to me considering our experience in that game!

I saw a claim from a good player and a counterclaim. I assumed that meant one of the two was scum. That is what I will almost always assume in that situation.

Hey Camn, if I was scum, why would I push the lynch on a player you claim I knew was a VT instead of pushing the player who I would think is the doc? Or even switch to Llama or someone else? Why would I want a VT lynched so badly?

All my inventions benifit whoever they are given to. That is something that has been confirmed to me, and I am sure myk can confirm that as well. Now, how would a scum role that aids the town work really? You either are arguing that I am scum given useful things to town, or you are arguing that I am scum with myk.

So it's impossible that you gave something to Myko in order to gain townie points?

yes, that is indeed the reason Llama is town. I know he likes to fakeclaim, but I can't see him doing this.

If he's a scum inventor, what do you think he'd claim?

people, please look back at KMD's voting last day, esspecially around Llama. It is extremely weak. first he tries to make people suspicious, but doens't want to vote, and but in the end he does vote because Llama place different then else...

but on the moment needed, he is on the VP lynch.

Llama's play was scummier than VP's, but VP's lynch was more likely and I didn't want a no lynch. Then VP claimed and got countered and I thought he was obvscum at that point.

I'll wait until Kmd links to the games he had in mind before commenting on this further (if I feel further commenting is actually needed).

Ok, I'll get them after this post.

[Kmd4390]

Family Guy Mini. Llama was a JOAT and one of the towniest players in the game.

Family Guy Large. Llama was a vig. Wrong on his shots, but pretty protown through most of the game. He did get wagoned after a while and have to claim, but before that, he was really townie.

[Kmd4390]

You only had to claim in the Mini because you were voteless.

The large, you mostly played a good game.

Here, you took a back seat and waited for something to happen. That is something I have NEVER seen you do.

[Kmd4390]

I had to full claim late because I (correctly mind you) suggested lynching the lovers because one is scum.

Hey, I get some credit for that lynch too. Are you forgetting I had a guilty on Rock? XD

Really though, you were very townie and I don't think you'd have had to fullclaim if you weren't voteless.

Good day one, really bad post day one.

And Day 2 I thought. But how was your Day 1 here? Hmm.

I cant get any good scum reads on anyone, I dont want to try and take over a game when I dont have any good scum reads.

Again, I've NEVER seen you do this. You complained about your reads in the Large Family Guy game too, but you kept pushing and taking control.

Im starting to lean to a charter-incog pairing though on a gut level. Im pretty sure that zilla, porkens and myk are town, also I am starting to gain confidence in camn town.

Is your suspicion on Charter/Incog purely gut? Have you tried looking back to see if there is a case on either? Why no vote? Why town on Camn?

[Kmd4390]

Llama, is Charter playing differently from his town meta in your opinion? If so, how?

SO are you saying you WERE aware of the MUFASA-GAMBIT, but you didn't think VP would actually try it?
Or that you DIDN'T see what he was doing?
Or that you DID see it, but wanted to punish him for it?

Yes to the first. Yes to the second. No to the last.

Which would totally be normal! EXCEPT that we had JUST gone through this in 122! Plus, I asked VP about it, he responded cryptically... why didn't you hold off a couple hours for me to respond?

I guess I suck at catching crypic posts. Hell, I've NEVER found a power role as scum by anything outside of claims and dumb luck. The only time I thought I did, I was wrong and the setup made it impossible anyway. I didn't wait because I was sure he was scum. I didn't see why you, specifically, needed to respond.

Obviously.. it is the normal, accepted play... so you thought you could easily get away with it!. Only the fact that VP was counting on YOU and ME noticing what he was doing... that fact makes your vote suspect.
I agree that it was not the best play for him. . . but the question now is "what were YOU thinking about?"

There is a lesson to be learned here. I don't pick up on subtle hints. XD

Really though. I guess I have to take responsibility for that. He tried something that I should have remembered seeing, and did remember seeing, but didn't think he was doing. I never even thought, "Hey, he could be doing this". I guess I didn't think hard enough. So yeah, it's my fault for missing it.

What was I thinking about? This game. Two claimed docs. One must be scum. I was trying to figure out which was scum, and VP made the most sense.

[Kmd4390]

KMD, what is your opinion on unsolicited softclaims?

Ever since Tranquility, I see them as scummy (Rishi).

[Kmd4390]

Camn, no reason for that question?

[Kmd4390]

Also, from where I am, KMD is getting a lot better.

unvote: KMD

How, if you don't mind me asking? All that really changed is that we lynched VP, Llama claimed, I backed off you, and I've gone after Camn.

Camn, no reason for that question?

Oh, there's a reason.

I just am giving myself a little time to think about you.. .

Hmm. ok. I'm sure you'll come back to it.

-----------------------------------

Zilla vs Incog

-Incog's logic makes sense. It's a werewolf theme and "doc" doesn't fit the werewolf theme. Asking Porkens for an opinion was ok to do. I can see how it could be seen as fishing as all we know about Porkens is that he can kill. But he's already daykilled twice, so I don't think there's any question as to his role (unless he's day-SK or scum dayvig). If Porkens was a "vig", VP could be a "doc". But if Porkens was "archer" or something, VP probably wouldn't be a "doc". Zilla's counter claim made VP scum anyway, so it was a good time to lynch him. Of course we were wrong, but that's still a logical assumption for Incog to make.

-The thing that does get me is that Incog unvoted. He says he did it because he was waiting for Porkens to answer. But he seemed sure anyway. I don't see why he has to wait.

-Conclusion: Very minor point against Incog. I still view him as likely town. His actions mostly match his logic, and even the small point against him is easily explainable.

------------------------

Now, with some of my suspects being confirmed/likely town, I have some work to do. I'm not gonna rule out Llama as scum, but I'm not going to push that today. I've already made myself heard about Camn. Porkens and Zilla are extremely likely town. So, who between Myko, Charter, and Incog is scum? I have pretty strong town reads on all three to be honest. Myko is very consistant with his town play. He's been jumped on for nothing IMO. Maybe he's scum, but I'm just not seeing it. Any time I get a twitch about Incog, it's pretty easily explained. He's probably town.

That leaves Charter. Ok, all he's really done is tunnel and that fits his town play. I'll be honest, I thought the same thing the first time I saw him as scum (Family Guy). The thing is, he was tunneling on his scumbuddy. Zilla is probably town. If he's tunneling on town, as scum, it's something I haven't seen from him before. It does make sense though. He knows that my meta read on his town game is that he tunnels. We've talked about it on AIM before (before this game ever started). If he just tunnels on a townie who I also suspect(ed), he'll look townie to me and I'll defend him hard like I always do when I think he's town. But would he go to those lengths just to look townie to me? If so, I feel pretty honored. But wait. If he's scum, and gets lynched, it will implicate me because I have a town read on him. Just look at what Zilla said. "Charter scum makes KMD scum very likely." Is it possible that that's what he wants? Yes, he'll want to survive a while. But if he eventually gets lynched, shouldn't he connect himself to a townie? And to someone who he thinks is predictable? Maybe. I think it may be a bit of a stretch, but it's more than I have on either Incog or Myko. And I'm not ready to call Zilla or Porkens scum right now. Maybe Llama. But if Camn and Llama are both town, I guess Charter comes next.

So. My lynch preference is obviously Camn. I could probably still lynch Llama although it would take quite a bit of consideration. And if people are serious about a Charter lynch, I'll look closer at him. I won't lynch Zilla or Porkens. Incog and Myko, I'd only lynch at deadline over a no lynch.

Except KMD...

Every time I make a mistake...

It's bad enough that you bring up my failed Gambit so much. Wasn't killing me twice enough for you?

[Kmd4390]

On that note, I don't like KMD's distancing from Charter in the last post. Way to straddle that fence!

Hey, I was most likely wrong about a town read. Charter makes more sense as scum than any of my other town reads.

Go ahead and bring your case against me.

Already did.

vote: KMD

^ this is still valid.

So I'm scum because I didn't see VP as scum until I saw a tell on him and because I backed off of a player who I only saw as scum due to a connection to someone who is very likely town?

People, KMD made a case against Llama yesterday that only consisted of meta, and not even showed why that made Llama more likely scum. Still, Llama was KMD's first choice this day.

His play looked like it was INTENTIONALLY altered. I can't see why Llama would change his play as town. The point is stronger than you are making it out to be. Llama is never as cautious as he has been here. I don't buy that he doesn't trust his reads.

He even admits his mistakes. What a gentleman...

that makes sure he made them

and is not a defence, just a "I am reasonable"-show.

About the VP thing? Would you rather I lie and say I didn't make a mistake? Pffffft. That's much better, right?

With the kinds of roles we've got out in the open already (and with Kmd's softclaim), I've kinda been thinking that maybe we should mass claim. Does anyone agree/disagree? Why?

softclaim?

And why would we massclaim now?

THough we just finished a game where we totally lost because we spent too much time discussing roles and setup... and not enough discussing scumminess... right Lllama?

That's actually how towns usually win on SA.

[Kmd4390]

With the kinds of roles we've got out in the open already (and with Kmd's softclaim), I've kinda been thinking that maybe we should mass claim. Does anyone agree/disagree? Why?

softclaim?

You deny it?

The only thing I hinted at is that I'm not vanilla. I did that because I had roleblock flavor which is more common on SA. When it happens there, people claim it. It happened in a game I'm in now. I haven't given any kind of softclaim on my specific role.

[Kmd4390]

How did I softclaim? V__V

[Kmd4390]

Ok, but I didn't softclaim my role specifically. I just said I'm not VT. I guess I can see your point. It's what happens on SA though where the level of play is so much higher (I'm almost always lynched in the first two days), so I took it as the right play. I've never gotten RB flavor on MS, so I took my SA experience and did what I'd do there.

[Kmd4390]

KMD did not defend, he just tried to skew/slant the case against him. The fact remains that he did no scumhunting yesterday except tunneling on me. All his VP hate was copied from myself and Incog. He irrationally defended charter and mykonian. Even his Llama problems were already precedented by my comments on how Llama isn't playing as usual.

The points against me were weak. I defended as such.

And ok, I tunneled on you, VP, Llama, Plum, Incog, and Camn and I tunneled on Myko, Charter, and Porkens being town. So you're right. I tunneled on about half of the game.

Incog raised a valid point on VP. I thought he was scum. Was I supposed to ignore that until something new came up and just hope I could jump on it before someone else? No. I'm going to vote for who I think is scum. I don't care what I look like. If I think someone is scum, they have my vote.

How is it irrational to defend someone who you have a town read on? Especially with Myko. He came near a lynch that I strongly disagreed with. If a lynch I don't like is about to happen, I'm going to try and stop it. See Stormer in Tranquility. See TM in large Family Guy. See any player I've ever thought was town that was coming near a lynch. I step up and say "Hey, I disagree. Let's lynch this person instead." Ok, I could have done more for Stormer in Tranquility, but you get the idea.

And no, my suspicions on Llama were based on games that I have played with him. I gave him the benefit of the doubt at first because I was waiting for him to step up and say, "Ok, here's why I did this and here's why it helped". When he didn't do that, I started to get worried. Then I got suspicious.

I read him in isolation; he was one of the most shaken up by porkens killing afatchic, and he recanted his position on me ON A DIME with no reasoning.

Actually, based on this,

unvote: KMD
vote: Llamafluff

Define "shaken up" and point out where you see this.

[Kmd4390]

Zilla,

unvote

Need to read and see what this changes, but today was a long day in the field so im too tired (and have damn posion oak) to get a good opinion down.

Is

this

the "shaken up" post? It's his first after afat's death and I can agree that it kind of looks like someone whose buddy just died early on Day 1. Next few posts just speculate on Porkens a little and go after Zazie for calling Porkens scum. Possible connection. The inventor claim is the one thing keeping my vote off of Llama. Yes, I believe the claim. I'm just trying to determine whether he is a scum inventor or not.

[Kmd4390]

Depending on the way the softclaim is done, I usually look at soft-claiming as a slight town-tell. In Kmd's case though, I really don't know what to think about it. I guess he might have been really excited about it and eager to get it out in the open, which is mildly town-ish, but for the most part, I just don't know.

Excited and eager? Not exactly. I was claiming the RB, not my role.

1)

Kmd has soft-claimed a power role and claimed that he was roleblocked. I really can't think of any reason why an RB-scum would want to roleblock Kmd (unless they picked up on some kind of breadcrumb he dropped or they have a meta on him that helped them realize he was power, etc.) -- I'd think that a scum RB might want to target someone like Zilla instead if she's telling the truth about her role. If we massclaim and nobody claims to be a roleblocker of some kind, then we can deduce that either there really is a scum RB who claimed something else and is purposely hiding his or her role or that Kmd is lying about his claim.

I doubt anyone picked anything up on me. I don't play any differently as a power role than I do as VT.

You think I'm lying about being blocked and recieving flavor for it? That's something that pretty much never happens on MS. Anyone else who is blocked will be able to verify that you recieve flavor for it. If anyone at all gets roleblocked and doesn't recieve flavor, that would be it for me. So it would be stupid to lie about it.

This leaves me and mykonian as the only people who haven't claimed who were also on the wagon. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that this VP wagon was completely town-pushed, I know that I'm town, and I find at least two of the four claimants to be rather town-ish (Zilla and Porkens). I think there's gotta be at least 1 scum in {LF, myk, Kmd} because of this.

Good point. One of Llama/Incog/Myko pretty much has to be scum.

Does anyone else find it strange that LF almost seems to be "clearing" mykonian as town when LF hasn't even claimed some kind of investigative role? Why would this so-called inventor be so sold on mykonian being town based off of a "gut read", and why would he not be looking at the wagon and other info from D1 to see if his myko-read still might hold true?

Actually, that's the one thing Llama has done in this game that fits his town meta. Yes, it's about the

only

thing. But it's there.

- Kmd should full claim now.

Nah. I'll let the scum keep guessing at my role.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd, can you at least claim who you targeted with your role last night? If you're not going to claim, I think you should at least provide that information.

Why? It gives hints at my role. For example, if I targeted someone protown, my role is protective or something else that helps the person I target. If I went after obvscum, my role is harmful to those who I target. If I went after someone random, I'm investigative or something weird. Why do you want to know my role so badly?

[Kmd4390]

heh, unless you're scum. Then if you went for someone protown; you might have been trying to kill them.

I'd be interested in who you targeted, too; but I don't know if it'd be the right thing.

So, who roleblocked KMD?

Fair point. From an outside PoV, targeting someone protown could make me scum.

I'll say who I targeted when I fullclaim. I won't fullclaim until I'm near a lynch or we eventually massclaim.

[Kmd4390]

Wait so in SA,

any

player with a PR would receive a flavor PM saying they got roleblocked?

I think in almost any game, any power role who is roleblocked gets a flavor PM saying so. As for vanillas, I think it depends on the Mod. For example (I don't think it hurts to reference an ongoing because it's common knowledge anyway), the game I'm in now. A player claimed to be roleblocked Nights 1 and 2 (and got flavor that her drink spilled on Night 1 and she spent all night cleaning. I don't remember N2's flavor), was killed Night 3, and flipped vanilla. So power roles always get RB flavor as far as I know, and 'nillas sometimes.

[Kmd4390]

Yeah, flavor comes with it so any role would know they've been blocked. If you're curious what my flavor is (I should have claimed it anyway, but I always forget to claim flavor or characters in theme games or whatever), I'll claim it after clearing my paraphrasing with the Mod.

[Kmd4390]

Flavor for the RB is that I tried to get some sleep and (I'm trying to paraphrase because I think using this word says enough for a modkill if I quote it directly) an "evil" took over what I was dreaming about. I started having nightmares about death and troubles. I woke up to see that it was already day and I was too tired to do anything, so I didn't. Then I'm specifically told that it was a roleblock.

Whats "SA" anyway.. and why are we so interested in it?

A site I play on that Spy is also a member of.

KMD: You did not tunnel on anyone but me, any assertion to the contrary is lies. You made offhand comments on other players that imped other people's comments that were already made, and most importantly (and you did not contest this), you did

no

scumhunting.

No scumhunting? Really? My opinions were clear on almost every player. Can you say the same for Charter? Not really.

Secondly, your defenses of players is irrational because it is not supported in thread. It's similar to Llama's "gut read" of town on Mykonian. You didn't outline logic for why you considered him to be town, and I don't believe your reasons for defending Charter because, from my experience, his actions did not match his town meta, but they did match his method as scum in family guy.

Myko is taking heat when he didn't really do anything scummy. That happens to town more than scum. Charter seemed to be matching his town meta when I saw him go after you the way he did. I can agree that it fits Family Guy except that you probably aren't scum. This is the problem with him tunneling even as town. It makes it hard to see the difference.

Charter needs to post.

I agree. Charter isn't one to lurk.

[Kmd4390]

:colbert:

You could just use IMG tags to get it from SA. (I was gonna do it to prove the point, but my computer won't let me because it's crap.)

[Kmd4390]

Does that not feel town-ish? If he's scum, I'm gonna feel pretty dumb that I helped shift the wagon away from him, but I'm beginning to think this might have been one of those wagons that was 100% right but was just right too quickly, which made it seem like it could have been a scum-driven wagon.

Or he's town and one of you/Camn is scum.

Woah.

Your paraphrasing seems to imply that this was something evil that roleblocked you. Why did you mention in post 524 that you could see the roleblock coming from either alignment?

Flavor indicates scum, but based on game events, I can see a few people blocking me as town.

I agree with Camn about Porkens. He's probably town. I refuse to lynch him today. He's not confirmed, but he's more confirmed than anyone else still alive.

What exactly is the case on Myko? I really don't see him as scummy.

[Kmd4390]

4. I asked it to make sure that the mod hasn't missed a way to break the game.
5. Those kinds of exclusions of players work great: if they improve your chances. If you can reason that one of KMD/Myk is scum, then you have done something great. But this actually is worse then you could get by simply looking at everyone.

Breaking the setup would be a

good

thing for town. Why do you think otherwise?

And if you can get a situation with 50/50 odds on someone being scum, I'd call that better than what you have when you look at everyone. You just have to be careful of what you are using to help your odds. If it's not a true 50/50, then I actually agree with you.

KMD: Mykonian refuses to say anything regarding Llama's "gift."

Depending on what it is, maybe that's best. Only Myko knows. That's really not a point either for or against him.

Ok, I see Myko's next post. Hmm. You have a point. No reason not to claim that. It's not his role. It's a one-shot doc protection recieved from another player. I guess it depends on judgement as keeping the scum guessing is always good. This could actually still go either way.

I don't believe it.

Even as scum, why would he lie about that?

---------------------------

Charter, I answered about the flavor and I'm not going to claim now.

[Kmd4390]

Myko, my opinion of Llama hasn't changed. He could still be a scum inventor looking for townie points. If Llama was a scum inventor, that's exactly what he would do. Give an invention to a townie and make sure we know it. Which may be why he was so willing to let us wagon him and force a claim.

Zilla, Myko isn't lying.

[Kmd4390]

Honestly, I hardly looked at the flavor when I first got it. All I took is that it was RB flavor. I don't usually look for hints in flavor. I can see where it looks like a scum block though.

Myko's play reminds me of Drawn Together. He basically played to please people more than to win. That's how it looked at least. We mislynched him Day 1 there. I'm a little hesitant to suspect him. I can see your points, but I can see all of those things coming from town-Myko too. Of course I don't think I've seen Myko as scum before...

Porkens, if an inventor gave something to scum, why would that scum even think about lying? If he says he got nothing, we lynch Llama who flips inventor. Myko is dead next. Maybe he could say he got something else, but why would he? The only way he is lying is if this is one of Llama's Gambits and they are scum together. But Llama is smarter than that. It's too obvious.

Another thing I find interesting is how Camn is only getting mentioned breifly. No one aside from me is voting her or even considering it as far as I know. And I've seen her name thrown around as suspicious. I think her scumbuddy is probably pushing Myko or Llama (if he's town) to distract us from Camn.

[Kmd4390]

Camn, I'm saying your scumbuddy is doing a good job of keeping attention off of you.

Yeah, I addressed the flavor. Basically, I saw a PM from Spy and was expecting "Day 2 begins". I open it and think "oh cool, flavor. Just like SA!" Then I see at the bottom it says I was RB'd. So I think "REALLY like SA. Better claim this." I didn't really look closely at the flavor originally. And the word "evil" is my interpretation of the word actually used. It's very similar (evil was the closest I could get IMO), but not exactly the same word. Depending on flavor for the RB's role, it is possible that they are still town. I agree that it indicates scum though. I think if I was blocked by town, they probably would have said something by now. of course, that depends on the player though.

Really though. Both of us town in the same game and both thinking the other is town is something that will probably never happen.

[Kmd4390]

WHAT IS SA???

You haven't been paying attention.

SA is a site where I play mafia. The level of play is much higher and it's much more fast-paced. Spy also is a member there although last I knew, he didn't play games, only followed them. On SA, roleblock flavor is a common thing. Flavor via PM is common for pretty much any night action there. Apparently, a doc in a game was recently told that he protected successfully (bad modding, but still). Oh, and the :colbert: that Spy posted is a smiley on SA with the arms crossed.

Incog is right. Mafia is a very small part of SA. Still, the people who do play mafia are amazing players. Most have been playing mafia for years.

[Kmd4390]

I never said I was dense. I said I suck at catching subtlty. There's a big difference there.

[Kmd4390]

Myko is pretty obvtown right now.

[Kmd4390]

quote="Incognito"]Unless this roleblock flavor that Kmd claims to have received extends to everyone in the game, as a protective role, you wouldn't even learn whether or not you've been roleblocked. [/quote]

Why would only I get RB flavor?

Kmd:

Please spell out why myk is "obvtown" unless it only has to do with the reasoning you used previously. Because I'm really not seeing it.

Meta, taking heat for things that aren't scummy, the way his wagon built, and his post about trying to use the doc protection is very genuine and sincere.

I think we also need to revisit: why was KMD blocked when there was a claimed doctor already out?

What are the chances of a one-shot being used on N1? Or maybe it was a town RB...

Conclusions

: During Day 1, Kmd continuously mentions very vague suspicions of LF but holds his vote on Zilla claiming that he still finds her play scummiest. Lots of subtle "coaching" vibes. He even seems to mildly suggest in his Post 344 that LF might be playing the way he has here because he might have a PR.

Day 2 comes and Kmd votes LF immediately, but then quickly unvotes, and they both claim PRs. Again, more mild suspicion thrown from Kmd to LF, but LF for the most part avoids the topic "Kmd".

I'd hate to say I'm suffering from confirmation bias or something but these interactions do NOT sit well with me at all. I'm getting this really weird feeling that mykonian could be being used as a pawn between two fake-claiming scum buddies if mykonian is indeed town.

What's stranger still though is how mykonian seems to not think either one of Kmd or LF is scummy also. There's something really weird going on in this triangle and Incog doesn't like it one bit.

Call it coaching if you want, but I originally thought he was trying some sort of Gambit and needed to explain it. When he didn't explain, I thought less and less that this was the case.

I didn't see Llama as a power role. I saw him as doing something different. No idea what, but something.

Llama was one of my top 3 suspects on Day 1. One died and the other counter-claimed as doc. Pretty obvious why I voted him. I unvoted because of his claim.

[Kmd4390]

What do you mean about Myko? I think he's town. I have some problems with his play, but I don't see it as scummy.

And how am I not scumhunting?

[Kmd4390]

Um, opinions are the result from scumhunting. How am I not scumhunting if I'm voicing opinions?

[Kmd4390]

Who suspected Camn before me?

[Kmd4390]

It was new info, wasn't it? Directly contradicts her accusation. I'd call it a defense.

[Kmd4390]

Charter connected you to Zilla. Zilla became nearly confirmed, so that was pretty much gone. THEN I brought my case on you. (Your link just froze up my computer...That's what I get for trying to open it...)

[Kmd4390]

Why would only I get RB flavor?

I don't know what your role is, so I really couldn't answer that. It could be roletype-specific.

I doubt it.

Now that LF's claimed role is out in the open, do you feel like LF has shifted into a playstyle that fits more into the style of play that you're used to?

Meh. A little. His stances seem more Llama-like, but he still isn't trying to control the game. He says he trusts his town reads more than his scum reads, but I don't like that excuse.

Wow. His last post, yes. Definitely the Llama I am used to. Note that that doesn't make him town. His scum game is normally very good.

[Kmd4390]

1.Kmd4390

I still think he of all people should have caught on to what VP was doing. But Meh. Special circumstance.
His "Confidence" that I am scum seems a little false to me. I feel like he is playing to his OWN town meta, but not convincingly.
The fact that he was seemingly UNAWARE that he had softclaimed is almost insane... and his obsession with SA is equally nuts. Spyrex plays there, right? so obv there would be some crossover.
Also, throughout today he has never wavered at saying that I, CAMN, am obv-scum, and that he is convinced of it. Yet he has BARELY pushed a case of any kind. Once again, it feels like he is imitating his own town-meta.
Prob-scum.

I posted my case earlier.

And why would I imitate my town meta as scum? I suck as town, but I'm good as scum.

11.Zilla

This is difficult. I think town... but I need this question answered..
Did Llama-fluff give Zilla her ability?
I know I am role-speculating too much, but I wonder about it.
If she was granted 1-Doc by Spyrex. . then I think Obv-town.
If by Llama.. then Prob-town.

You think Llama has the ability to give protections out both during the day AND night?

THUS, I believe the final 2 scum are KMD and Myko.
Of course, even

I

, camn, have been known to be wrong.

Would I really defend my buddy near a lynch?
Come on. That's insulting. XD

[Kmd4390]

There wasn't a N0.

What is wrong with WIFOM btw?

[Kmd4390]

Not liking Camn these last few posts...

because she attacks you? poor child...

Or maybe because she's doing what she can to think of ways for the closest we have to a confirmed town player to still be scum. (Although maybe Porkens is more confirmed because we've actually seen him kill)

Unvote, Vote Charter

. Deadline coming up and I'd rather lynch him than Myko. Nobody seems to want to lynch Camn, so she can wait. If needed, I can switch in case of the deadline, but I'd much rather lynch Charter. He's scummy and Myko isn't.

[Kmd4390]

Llama, I honestly don't get it. I have an idea where you may be going, but not completely sure.

Zilla, if you

were

blocked, you should claim it. That goes for anyone who may have been blocked.

[Kmd4390]

FOS: Llama, KMD, Camn

I was blocked. Why the intense interest? I didn't even schedule my power for use.

Vote: KMD

Because it helps confirm that I was blocked yesterday and gets information out that can't hurt the town in any way. And a claimed doc being blocked means that the scum, not town, blocked me.

Seems to me he knew about roleblocking providing flavor and he claimed yesterday to set this whole thing up, now Llama comes in and asks if I'm being blocked to complete the setup that "clears" KMD.

So you think the scum RB PM says the target will recieve flavor and scum didn't block anyone last night?

----------------

Ok, Llama basically already made both these points.

Well, anyway. Llama, why is Incog scum? I think it's either Charter/Camn or Charter/Llama. My gut says it's not Llama/Camn for some reason. Incog looks relatively townie to me.

[Kmd4390]

Screw it, Llama OBVIOUSLY knew I was blocked.

Meh. Maybe. It's a good assumption to make though. For a second, I was thinking Llama was gonna say he was blocked...

I still suspect KMD played his role in this with his claim yesterday. I do believe scum didn't block anyone night one, because if they would have, their obvious target would have been me. KMD's claim to being roleblocked and his reluctance to admit anything else but that roleblock is entirely suspect. Llama pushing on me so hard for confirmation that I had been roleblocked looks exactly like this was all just a setup to "clear" KMD, especially since he went STRAIGHT for me, and STRAIGHT to asking if I was roleblocked.

Well, it wouldn't be very smart for scum to waste a RB N1. I just don't see it. And you claimed one-shot. What one-shot uses their ability on N1? Ok, you had already claimed, so maybe, but still. They may have gambled that you didn't use it.

Just because I was roleblocked doesn't mean I should claim. I want the scum to have to guess if I'm useful or not. I was once roleblocked 2-3 times in a game as a bomb (Robot Chicken). So I have scum wondering if they block me again. Are they blocking someone they don't have to or are they neutralizing the most powerful role in the game? Or somewhere in the middle? As long as I'm unclaimed, they have no clue. But if we are massclaiming, I guess we can forget that now.

And I can agree about Llama going straight at you. It does seem like he knew. Llama is looking more like him self, but it seems like he is his scum self. But if that's the case, Camn looks more townie. Damn.

Wouldn't you be curious to find out the roleblocking

flavor

that Zilla received as opposed to just determining if she got roleblocked?

^This. I'd like to hear the flavor.

[Kmd4390]

You targeted Porkens? Convenient.

[Kmd4390]

Well, I guess because of Myko getting your invention N1, there's no way you are lying about Porkens being your target. But if we have a tracker or something, it's a convenient reason why you targeted Porkens on the same night he was killed.

[Kmd4390]

Zilla has a point. You giving the invention to Porkens has nothing to do with confirming me. Asking Zilla about the RB does, but your night action, not seeing it.

[Kmd4390]

Zilla has a point. You giving the invention to Porkens has nothing to do with confirming me. Asking Zilla about the RB does, but your night action, not seeing it.

^Directed at Llama obviously.

[Kmd4390]

Um. You giving Porkens an invention didn't mean anything as far as confirming me. He'd have died regardless. And someone would have been blocked whether it was Zilla or not.

[Kmd4390]

I agree with that. But I still don't see what this has to do with you giving an invention to Porkens.

[Kmd4390]

Maybe they didn't realize it would confirm me. And Zilla was pretty near confirmed anyway.

[Kmd4390]

So because scum blocked me I am scum? What?

I claimed the block because the only other place I've seen RB flavor is on SA and claiming RBs is standard procedure there. I didn't even think it would be questioned.

[Kmd4390]

I learned nothing last night.

I'm a generalist aka JOAT.

J

ust think of the times Camn has killed me. B

o

th were obviously revenge shots. Ye

a

h, I need to at least vote her now. Tha

t

will at least make me feel a little better.

First letter of first word. Second letter of second sentence. Third letter of third sentence. Fourth letter of fourth sentence. Spells JOAT.

I tried to kill Camn Night 1.
I didn't perform an action Night 2 (RB wasted my damn kill)

I still have 2 actions.

[Kmd4390]

Why Camn Night 1, and why didn't you do anything last Night?

Don't you know my history with Camn? Ok, leave a 4 year old alone for 3 hours. Tell them "here's some candy. It's up to you if you want it or not" and tell me you expect to come back and see some candy still there. Same idea.

Didn't do anything in case of the RB. I don't want more actions wasted.

It was me risking losing an invention to a player dying to clear a player.

Again, what makes you think Zilla wouldn't have been blocked if your invention didn't go to Porkens?

In fact, a Zilla-scumdoc and KMD-scum Roleblocker would totally explain all the nonsense.

So did I roleblock myself, did I know that the target would get flavor, or did I not use a roleblock?

What does that mean.. "waste" a RB? Like, maybe it is a limited-use thing? How would KMD even know that?

Waste as in not use it. Waste as in they could stop a power role, but decided not to. Wasting as in using a limited shot is the exact opposite of what I was saying. The argument Zilla made is that scum didn't block anyone Night 1 (and apparently knew the target got flavor which would mean I completely made up the flavor I posted). So I argued that it would be a waste NOT to use it. I did NOT argue that a limited shot was being wasted.

KMD is totally scum. He tried to kill me. He is no JOAT.. he is simply scum.

Pfffffffffffftttttttt. I even told you in those PMs a while back (before this game ever started) that I'd kill you in a game first chance I got. You know you'd do the same if you had the kill.

[Kmd4390]

Why Camn Night 1, and why didn't you do anything last Night?

Don't you know my history with Camn? Ok, leave a 4 year old alone for 3 hours. Tell them "here's some candy. It's up to you if you want it or not" and tell me you expect to come back and see some candy still there. Same idea.

Didn't do anything in case of the RB. I don't want more actions wasted.

It was me risking losing an invention to a player dying to clear a player.

Again, what makes you think Zilla wouldn't have been blocked if your invention didn't go to Porkens?

In fact, a Zilla-scumdoc and KMD-scum Roleblocker would totally explain all the nonsense.

So did I roleblock myself, did I know that the target would get flavor, or did I not use a roleblock?

What does that mean.. "waste" a RB? Like, maybe it is a limited-use thing? How would KMD even know that?

Waste as in not use it. Waste as in they could stop a power role, but decided not to. Wasting as in using a limited shot is the exact opposite of what I was saying. The argument Zilla made is that scum didn't block anyone Night 1 (and apparently knew the target got flavor which would mean I completely made up the flavor I posted). So I argued that it would be a waste NOT to use it. I did NOT argue that a limited shot was being wasted.

KMD is totally scum. He tried to kill me. He is no JOAT.. he is simply scum.

Pfffffffffffftttttttt. I even told you in those PMs a while back (before this game ever started) that I'd kill you in a game first chance I got. You know you'd do the same if you had the kill.

[Kmd4390]

I thought for sure I'd be blocked again. It would have been an easy way for me to be set up as today's lynch.

[Kmd4390]

Zilla, you know you are technically voting Charter now, right? Unvoting isn't required.

Incog, I was blocked N1. Blocking me again would have made people skeptical. Blocking someone else confirms at least to that person that I was actually blocked. So if they blocked me, they'd possibly block a power role AND be able to get me lynched. I guess they weren't thinking that way though.

[Kmd4390]

JOAT assigner? No. Inventor. Town had a JOAT/Inventor combo in Family Guy (the mini) too. Although, admittedly, the JOAT role was weakened there.

[Kmd4390]

and whats wrong with voting Charter?
He DOES need to get back in the game.

I agree. Just making sure she knew she was voting him.

Incog, I'd rather not reveal what other abilities I have. Please stop fishing for them.

Further, I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around why scum targeted you N1 and Zilla N2. RB-ing Zilla both nights makes infinitely more sense to me.

Well, unless you think Zilla and I are scum together, that's what happened.

Lastly, I don't get why an ongoing thing with camn would make you want to kill her here in this game when during Day 1, you felt like she was town-ish and LlamaFluff was your top suspect after the VP flip. Why you wouldn't target him during N1 is beyond me.

I will

always

take my shot at Camn. I need to catch up to her two grudgekills on me.

maybe i dont get it... But they seem very similar, no?
Maybe thats intentional.

If so, then the scum is Charter and Incog, right!?

Charter, I can see. Incog, not so much. I think it's you or Llama. Sure, Incog isn't cleared, but he's been the towniest person in the game so far.

[Kmd4390]

I don't understand why you need to hide specifics if it confirms him as lying scum.

[Kmd4390]

Zilla, what are you doing...

Seriously, we should lynch him because you

promised

us that he's scum. And more than likely in LYLO?

I have no idea how his claim convinced you 100% that he's scum. Yes, that's the way I was leaning too, and still am, but now I'm confused.

[Kmd4390]

What are you confused about? You shouldn't have any idea how his claim convinced me he's 100% scum, that's the point. I know it's a horrible situation, but this is something that is best handled if you trust me on it. I know

it's an uneasy thing to extend trust in this game

, but it's the best way town has to win, by far. Everything will be cleared up tomorrow.

Agree with the bolded...

Look. You claimed to have been blocked last night. Nobody else spoke up and said they were blocked. So unless the RB is one-shot or scum witheld their block last night, or the RB submitted the kill and can't block on the same night, you are town. The problem is, as improbable as all of those scenarios are, if we blindly "trust" you and you are scum and Charter is town, you more than likely beat us all because we "trusted" you. Now, if you tell us why Charter is scum, and it looks damning, and we lynch him, one of two things happens: 1)We lynch scum. Awesome. 2)You are scum, well played. 3)You are wrong, but at least we knew what was going on and the decision was easier to make. 2 of these 3 things lead to a loss. But if you don't tell us what is going on, it's even riskier to lynch Charter based on your word alone.

[Kmd4390]

Wait, I might know what you did...

[Kmd4390]

If I'm right, you actually are right not to claim it. If that's it, say so tomorrow. No more nights after that.

[Kmd4390]

Also, Incog will be voting me shortly (probably right after Kmd or Llama does). I can read minds.

Oh shit. You can. I'm considering it.

Is Camn bussing you right now?

[Kmd4390]

Ha. I'm sitting on a bomb. I can't bring myself to reveal it, go ahead and lynch me, but you will have eliminated the possibility of winning this game on skill. There's a tiny chance

you

can do it on luck, but very very tiny.

If "you" refers to the town, you just scumslipped.

[Kmd4390]

KMD, I'm aware of the risks of revealing this, but can your JOAT protect?

What are the benefits of revealing this?

KMD, if you have the power to protect, I can clear two townies tonight and make the game unwinnable for scum.

Wait, how?

And KMD.. if I was partners with a scum-charter.. I would have bussed him RELENTLESSLY from the get go!!!

Useless WIFOM...

But still a good point. Camn always reads Charter as scum which is the perfect excuse to go all out on him for the townie points. But then again, it's just as good an excuse to take a step back like she did until he's about to be lynched and absolutely

has to

bus.

Yes, I know it's all WIFOM, but it's part of the game. The sooner MS learns that, the better.

Vote Charter

I'm willing to hammer as soon as I finish discussing with Zilla why I should reveal my abilities. I don't get how a one-shot doc can do everything that she claims to be able to do here. I need to know how this is happening before I simply trust Zilla and believe everything she says.

[Kmd4390]

The fact that Kmd hasn't hammered yet means that either charter really is scum or if we're dealing with a scum team of two, both scum are probably on his wagon already (if he's town), which I'm doubting. I don't mind hammering at this point unless anyone else has anything else to say.

I need to finish discussing the issue of my abilities with Zilla before we hammer. Charter is our lynch today, but there's one more thing to discuss first.

[Kmd4390]

I'm protecting Zilla tonight.

[Kmd4390]

If scum kill one of Llama/Camn/Incog, it leaves me and you both alive and you'll have Llama's gift if we no lynch tomorrow. If they kill me, you still have Llama's gift I have confidence in the remaining living players catching scum. If they kill someone else, we are a little confused. If they try to kill you, they won't get a kill tonight. XD

Best case scenario, I'm protect you tonight so that you live to tomorrow and hopefully the scum kill me. Yes, a JOAT would be gone, but after tonight, my role probably isn't as useful as Llama's gift being in your posession. So that's the plan. I'm protecting you. Llama is giving you his gift.

Shit. Problem. What are the chances of you actually getting to use the gift? If it's a one-shot investigation or something, you probably die the same night you use it and don't get anything from it. Whatever, we'll worry about that tomorrow.

[Kmd4390]

^ You seem pretty confident that Llama is telling the truth about his gifts...

Myko got one and flipped town. Do you think a confirmed town player lied about it?

Incog and camn claimed vanilla, right?

Actually, did Camn claim? I know Incog claimed 'nilla.

What about the scenario of charter not being the RB though?

Then scum have options. Let's not help them though. You and I can figure out what to do at night if necessary.

Camn claimed "dumb peasant."

WHERE DID INCOG CLAIM?

k.

Incog claimed before me or Charter. He basically said "We should massclaim now. I'll kick it off. I'm vanilla" or something like that.

[Kmd4390]

Llama: I'm glad you brought it up and KMD not bringing it up is a little suspect; perhaps forgetting to mention it here would let scum KMD kill me and then say "I was roleblocked!"

However, it's covered. I've already cleared with the mod that I can target myself.

>.< I've already been blocked. The only way I'm lying is if scum didn't RB N1 or scum blocked their own player.

So you DIDN'T self-protect N1. How'd you know Charter was scum then....

[Kmd4390]

That means, KMD has committed to protecting me, and there are two sources for my protection. THERE IS NO REASON I SHOULD DIE TONIGHT. If I do, KMD is scum.

What if scum actually

do

block one of us... Then we are fucked cuz I look like scum faking a RB...

[Kmd4390]

shh. Dont tell! Its obvious, kmd!!

*headscratch*

Damn subtle things...........

[Kmd4390]

Oh, right. You'll survive tonight guaranteed. Ok. So Llama is safe to give you the gift. And I'm probably dead then because blocking me is pointless.

I'm still not seeing why Charter was scum, but whatever. If you can explain it tomorrow, I'm happy.

[Kmd4390]

^ You seem pretty confident that Llama is telling the truth about his gifts...

Myko got one and flipped town. Do you think a confirmed town player lied about it?

I think Mykonian told us what he thought was the truth. I'm still wary of the role in itself, alternative explanations, etc.

So Myko got a one-shot protection from somewhere other than the claimed inventor who said he'd targeted Myko?

[Kmd4390]

Llama gave Myko a one-shot protection. That is what I am sure of. Maybe he's scum who has that ability, but I believe Myko at least.

[Kmd4390]

What's a placebo?

[Kmd4390]

literally, it means fake medication used as a control in a medical study to negate "the placebo effect," where patients will experience symptoms of the medication just because they believe they took the medication.

In this case, I'm saying Myko received a fake one-shot doc. Or, basically, he received nothing that looked like a one-shot doc.

So Myko would have gotten some kind of quack/insane doc ability for a night? Interesting theory (and awesome role idea). Good to give to a player who most see as scummy so they aren't around long enough to realize scum did that to them. I like that idea for a large game.

Does that actually fit in a normal game though? I think it's too much of a stretch. Love the idea, but not seeing it.

[Kmd4390]

As far as I'm concerned, Llama hasn't done anything protown aside from having Mykonian vouch for him. He pushed Charter at a time when nobody was interested in him (distancing/bussing which matches his scum meta), he heavily buddied with Mykonian on "gut feeling," he claims to have thrown away his invention at Porkens based on a false dilemma that either Porkens or I had to die and that he apparently wanted to clear KMD, instead of both clearing KMD and having a townie with an invention.

Then there's the whole not playing like normal day 1.

Overall, I haven't liked his moves, and the only thing that says he's town is that Mykonian had a power that Llama gave him. When there's lots of evidence in one direction and only one piece in the opposite, I'm going to question that one piece of evidence.

I agree with pretty much all of this. Like I said, I believe Myko that Llama gave him the doc protect. That doesn't mean Llama is 100% confirmed town inventor though.

[Kmd4390]

Also, rush-lynch Charter failed at stopping discussion. *Nelson Muntz* HAH hah!

XD

Funny.

[Kmd4390]

OMG HOW'D I KNOW THAT WOULD HAPPEN

[Kmd4390]

Don't complain after a win. XD

FTR, I was right about Myko too.

[Kmd4390]

Zilla, if you were a jailer, why'd you ask for Llama's invention?

I sent No Kill N1 because town didn't know there were two scumgroups and I had the roleblock going for me. It meant no one could have guessed that I was scum being blocked by scum.

Oh, and when I sent my kill, I told Spy that we were probably cross killing.

FTR Camn, it honestly did never cross my mind that VP was fakeclaiming as town. I thought he was opposing scum.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd, I knew you were scum because of the kill on me . . . which apparently wasn't from you . . . the way you attacked me for not being as verbose then got off me and then the way you responded to Incog asking if I ever buddied the way he thought I did and you brought up Lovers Mafia while in the same breath saying

it wasn't the same thing

was so, so off.

With only 2 scum in my group (I felt like SK for most of this game with afat dying so early), I knew there was some form of other scum. So. All of my scumhunting efforts were genuine.

Zilla, what was diffferent about my game? I felt like by actually having to scumhunt, I played the exact same game I play as town.

Also Zilla, I entertained the idea of two scumgroups when Zazie brought it up, so I don't fit on the list of people who said there was only one. Charter does though. XD

[Kmd4390]

@KMD: see my remarks on your play day 1. You really were tunneling on me, and then your defense of that seemed very

wrong

because instead of going "oh, yeah, there ARE other people here." you were all "No no, my paltry offhand comments on other people PROVE I'm not tunneling!"

I don't feel I tunneled though. Yeah, I focused more on you than anyone, but I was still watching everyone else. That is my normal town play though. Could it be because you first saw me in a Large?

Oh, I'm also kinda glad this is over so I can use it in an ongoing game now, because it proves that half-serious votes DO exist, and that the dichotomy of "Only joking" and "Only serious" is bologna.

I still don't like them..

Lastly, that role idea I suspected Llama of having is worth remembering... It's downright insidious! I'd probably pair it with a godfather as well, and smart scum would have the godfather claim to be the one giving out the "gifts" for an airtight alibi (except for watchers/trackers).

Wanna Co-Mod a game with me? We can make up some cool roles.

Kmd targets Camn - Successful. Result: Killed.
Camn targets Kmd - Successful. Result: Killed.

HA HA HA HA!!!!

Can we have a truce now?
I intentionally didn't kill you earlier on!

I tried to kill you Night 1. Your scumbuddy blocked me though. XD

No truce until I catch up. 3-1.

we also considered No-killing to fool the town into thinking there was only one scumgroup!

OMG I DID THAT.

Reading your QT now. I'll post mine later.

[Kmd4390]

QT, not that we said much. XD

[Kmd4390]

I tried to kill you Night 1. Your scumbuddy blocked me though. XD

No truce until I catch up. 3-1.

A) I suggested it..
and
b) YOU DESERVED EVERY KILL! PLUS, You flipped scum TWICE!
so really... it was just ONCE that I grudge-killed you.. and you deserved it!~
c) I can't believe you slipped through my fingers after VP died. YOu were so scum. Nice breadcrumb... Thats the only thing that saved you.

A) I figured. Part of why I thought you were scum on Day 2.
B) Meh. I'm still bitter.
C) But I

honestly

didn't catch what he was doing. Thanks btw. XD

PS.. we still have yet to be on the same team (and alive) since Tranquility.

XD. Our history is so violent.
-Tranquility- both town. I thought you were scum
-Night Watch- you were scum and killed me N0
-Medieval- I was scum. You killed me as vig.
-Open 122- Both town, but I died as soon as you came in XD
-This- crosskill to give town the win

Mathematically comes out to 50% chance of one of us being scum. I'm remembering this next time I see you in a game.

Oh, and 40% chance of one of us killing the other.

And 50% that one of us gets a killing role.

[Kmd4390]

I tried to kill you Night 1. Your scumbuddy blocked me though. XD

No truce until I catch up. 3-1.

A) I suggested it..
and
b) YOU DESERVED EVERY KILL! PLUS, You flipped scum TWICE!
so really... it was just ONCE that I grudge-killed you.. and you deserved it!~
c) I can't believe you slipped through my fingers after VP died. YOu were so scum. Nice breadcrumb... Thats the only thing that saved you.

A) I figured. Part of why I thought you were scum on Day 2.
B) Meh. I'm still bitter.
C) But I

honestly

didn't catch what he was doing. Thanks btw. XD

PS.. we still have yet to be on the same team (and alive) since Tranquility.

XD. Our history is so violent.
-Tranquility- both town. I thought you were scum
-Night Watch- you were scum and killed me N0
-Medieval- I was scum. You killed me as vig.
-Open 122- Both town, but I died as soon as you came in XD
-This- crosskill to give town the win

Mathematically comes out to

40%

chance of one of us being scum. I'm remembering this next time I see you in a game.

Oh, and 40% chance of one of us killing the other.

And 50% that one of us gets a killing role.

Typo fix'd.

[Kmd4390]

Sorry about that KMD

Don't apologize. Porkens had a nice shot.

[Kmd4390]

Camn, you were shooting for town?

And I was gonna scumclaim too. I even asked Spy what would happen in a hypothetical 2 opposing scum endgame. I asked if it would be a joint win, but apparently it wouldn't. So I ended up deciding against it.

I had a few other Gambit ideas. Day 4 was gonna be so much fun.