Mini 803 - Pale Moon Risin' (Over!)

[Plum]

Vote: Zilla

Despite the fact that I happen to love your avatar and the fact that you seem to have been on my subconscious' list of players to someday play with . . . your Porkens vote is off, because Porkens was not rolefishing; your first RVS theoretically had general RVS merit (though theory discussion on whether or not unexplained RVS votes are more suspect than those with jokey reasoning is not something I'd look forward to having) but your switch had negative merit.

Also, I've decided that I am going to thoroughly enjoy this game. I'm seriously going to have lots-o-fun here.

[Plum]

Whoa wait a sec here. I may have time to dash off a quick post. I'm in my school play tonight which has sapped time today. Lots of the stuff I have down here are like notes for things I want to look into when I have more time.

Zilla

No, I don't see how Porkens' statement could be reasonably construed as rolefishing. He did not remotely press for information or question you in a way that might lead to you revealing info. He merely noted that you'd suggested that you had a certain ability and the fact that he noted that it was interesting and the fact that it would become evident whether or not you'd been joking about it. The vote change and accusation was, you say, %25 serious. The serious part is crud, because he wasn't rolefishing. The joking part is

FOS: Porkens

. I dslike that you say 'I like the Zilla wagon without further commenting on why or on the merits of the case on Zilla or your own opinion of Zilla.

Llama has come to the same conclusion as me (Zilla is suspect) but on a totally, totally different road, and my gut is inexplicably linking it to how I felt trying to make arguements when I was scum in a recent Livers Nightless setup. I need to read that more in-depth and see whether there's possible truth to that.

Mykonian is giving me weird vibes.

and baltar, I don't know, but scum, bussing serious on page 5? Not a lot would do that, I think. The distancing-bussing story seems a little far-fetched.

WIFOM defense, and not the good kind either. Apparently there have been other accusations thrown at him (of scummy wishy-washyness, for one thing) which I'm interested in and sorry I don't remember better.

Must run. Sorry for the messy post; hopefully actual good analysis is coming tonight.

See you ASAP, folks.

[Plum]

Unvote: Zilla

Now it's L-1, I'm not ready to have her there and am in the middle of preparing a reread post in which I was considering other cases anyhow.

[Plum]

Guess what time it is? Yes - reread and analysis post time.

Mykonian

Has gotten a lot of attention recently, and in any case even in my brief look-through yesterday gave me stuff to raise my eyebrows at. In fact, I'm going to go through the game (it's still short enough and not too dense) and note any unusual things about him, yeah? Also early cases made etc.

Myk, why didn't you place a random vote?

@ All: Is not casting a random vote more or less suspect than casting a random vote without jokey reasoning provided? Also, does anyone know if Myk has a history of avoiding voting in the random stage at all?

Actually, Myk, I've learned that not voting can be a pretty decent scumtell, and, all things considered, Zilla's Page 4 case and vote on you were not bunk. Reluctance to commit to a vote is a legit scumtell, and Zilla's extrapolated reasons for why scum-Myk would do that are reasonable.

Then you have no dispute with me and my argument is completely valid.

you think so? Random votes don't say a lot, and are "flushed away" by all the other votes.

You say I'm scared to vote.

I say a vote isn't much use now.

I can't be scared, as votes aren't very much checked in the RVS. They don't say a lot. But if they don't say a lot, why would you vote?

Please show me, how you think your argument could be valid...

I have seen scum reluctant to commit to votes when they had even very minor suspicions (or in the RVS . . . damn, I'm going to check your stupid meta myself. Happy now??? All right, I've seen you do the normal random vote stuff and the voting when things got modestly serious stuff.

Why did you not in this game???

).

Mykonian, you're claiming two things at once. You're saying you don't want to random vote, and that your vote is "worthless" now, and you alternate between the two, and neither make any sense.

The first makes no sense because it's only random voting if you're doing it for random reasons. If you have a serious reason, it's not a random vote. The second also makes no sense because it shouldn't matter who looks at your vote. It's paranoid scum who worry about how their vote looks.

or town that likes to see what the reaction of scum on a vote is. That won't help if they don't think it is serious

btw, it would be nice if I had a town game of you I could read. Would you have a link?

Addressing the bolded: Not justification. I make random votes and votes on minor points early in the game and I make serious votes too. I look for reactions on all and try to take advantage of all the votes I make in that way, but believe me, when I'm making a serious vote it's clear I'm making a serious vote. I don't need to do away with less serious votes to get that to happen. Regardless, in my brief glance at your meta I haven't seen you shying away from less-than-serious votes.

This fails the "if everybody did this, would it help town?" test miserably.

Does it matter if a case is weak at this point in the game? A weak case is better than a joke case or no case at all.

SO TRUE.

These too.

I wasn't talking about you... but about charter.

see, I can have this little problem. That I post too much to make the town function. In that game, there was another one that did the same. I think charter enjoyed the show. I didn't like it, and it is not going to happen again.

I'm glad, but you're not helping the town function by not voting or attempting to formulate accusations and cases. By page five you've not done any of this.

SCREW IT; MYKONIAN BECAME MY CLEAR TOP SUSPECT BY POST 116

First you refuse to vote, don't put together much case, etc. as elaborated above. THEN you ask for some Zilla-town meta, then you make a vote based on your view of her town meta vs. her scum meta.

I have seen scum ask for meta (mith's meta!) only to take that and try to twist it into a case.

You're out of luck here, Myk. Wishy-washyness, reluctance to commit to a vote or case, and then

this

vote for this reason . . . my scumdar has made a decisive

bleeeep!

Vote: Mykonian

While I agree with parts of Baltar's case (basically the ones arguing that Myk's reluctance to put a vote on his top suspect, however weak his case on Zilla was, is suspect) I don't see strong enough indication to link them much in my mind - and the fact that you're implying such strong connections before any players have flipped scum (or anything, for that matter) makes gut twitch, and his Post 118 was basically predicated on arguing for this connection.

FOS: VP Baltar

I don't see the appeal for VP Baltar's "Zilla being bussed by mykonian-scum" theory. The fact that he built a complete case against mykonian under the premonition that Zilla is scum is creepy. VP Baltar, do you see mykonian as scummy independent of his interactions of Zilla? Your case only seems to work under the assumption that Zilla is definitely scum here, and we haven't had an alignment flip yet sooo, yeah.

^^ See that.

I move that the bolded is a giant scumslip. If he thought I was scum, he wouldn't say that the point of my case is that "I seriously thought Porkens was rolefishing." If he thought I was scum, it would have been "I was trying to frame Porkens for rolefishing."

Hm. I note this well.

@ Plum

Serious? And what put me on this "list'?

You were my only lead, having done the only really out-of-place, potentially scummy thing to that point, so yes, you got a serious vote. What do you think, I write up unamusing, business-tone sentences backing my point on a vote because I have nothing better to do and no sense of humor to boot? Please . Also, I just meant that my subconscious seems to think you're cool for a reason I don't really know. Consider it a compliment, if you will.

I wanted to see what Plum's reaction was to me saying my Porkens vote wasn't serious, but then a page went by with no plum and tons of people basically making my question lose impact.

Yeah, I was out then. Probably I would have said that your first vote had an arguably decent reason behind it, but a sudden switch to voting someone for a not-serious reason wasn't good, and the fact that the vote looked very much like a serious vote on a baseless accusation was worse.

Porkens then asked if I was a doublevoter. That was the reaction I was looking for, and that's why I voted him.

hmm, I guess I'll have to wait for the votecount to see if you're just being silly or not...

I see no asking it you're a doublevoter; I see him noting something he's interested in seeing the conclusion of. That is my problem; the thing you were pouncing on wasn't rolefishing. I don't care whether or not you intended your vote on him to lead to a lynch, because your basis for making that fairly serious accusation was nonexistent.

"Is that a REAL doublevote?" strikes me as worse than, "Are you claiming doublevoter?" The first has a bit of "oh shit" in it.

See the actual Porkens quote I put in above. It's arguably closer to the second phrase you listed, though it's not really either.

3.

Plum

You can't have "lots-o-fun" unless you post more! You are ALSO on Zilla from post 0. hmm.
No read.

I've been busy: parading on Sunday, school play yesterday, etc. Rest assured that I'm having plenty of fun putting together this fairly long post, yar?

@Llama:

When he confirmed that Zilla was his top pick before I made it known who my top pick was, it made me more comfortable with him.

What about the fact that he hadn't voted all game - not even your mutual top pick for scum?

Zazie, show up soon .

Zilla, how do you define the term 'rolefishing'?

Gah, I am getting a stupid null-read on Charter.

Also gah: Why am I still getting a strong scumvibe from Llama's Post 105, specifically the fact that he's arguing for the biggest wagon thus far but seems to have believed that the doublevoter fakeclaim looked serious and that Porkens attacked it?

Kmd: How do you see Mykonian and the case on him. Please, feel your freest to elaborate.

Charter:

No, I just find it too hard to believe he would make such an obviously poor vote if scum. He's in the same spot if you're town.

I don't like the too dumb to be scum argument .

FOS Plum

Oh hi, I've missed you, too

I was on the verge of making better on my FOS when I saw this, but events of tonight have made me rethink that a bit .

[Plum]

There is no reason to assume Porkens is, at this point, anything but town. I'm interested in the points Zazie is bringing up . . . but right now that's more intellectual than anything. I highly doubt that this is the work of scum of the same faction as afachic. Outside chance of something else, I suppose.

I, for one, have never heard of mafia daykilling their buddy. It seems inconceivable... especially day one, with a perfectly good wagon in place.

^^That.

You do realize that your vote on mykonian placed

him

at L-1 too right? Were you concerned about ANYONE being at L-1 so quickly when you stated the above or just Zilla?

I'm ashamed to say that I didn't, and I would not have voted him at that point had I realized that. Now that you've unvoted and he's at L-2, well, he remains my top suspect.

Zilla: Hm, you're right, I see the post of Porkens you were concerned about. I want to analyze that more when I have more time than the lunch break at school, but it's on my list and I think it'll be something that makes me more inclined to see your side of things.

Can you elaborate please? What is the cause of this null-read?

His tunnelling on you: it's not really helping the town &c. but I'm not sure whether to read it as a scumtell or not. I think I may feel that way because I'm under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that that sort of aggression and tunnelling is par for the course it Charter. I plan to do a more extensive reread of him as early as convenient.

this could be eager town, or scum with a particular way of playing. Seen my game with her, it is the last.

But you're pretty sure/quite confident for a Day 1 case that it's the latter of the two possibilities, are you?

More soon-ish.

[Plum]

I'm sorry; I've basically been kicked off the computer for the night. I've been busy and less prolific, post-wise, than would be ideal anyway (have been busy). Again, many apologies, hopefully I'll get some good strong posting together tomorrow to make up for this.

[Plum]

Stuff I'm going to respond to before I pull out my scumhunting rapier - I decided to put this in a seperate post since I already had it finished, but a lovely scumhunting post is already in the works and should be finished within an hour or three. Zilla devoted an entire long post to me; I'm honored .

I have seen scum reluctant to commit to votes when they had even very minor suspicions (or in the RVS . . . damn, I'm going to check your stupid meta myself. Happy now??? All right, I've seen you do the normal random vote stuff and the voting when things got modestly serious stuff.

Why did you not in this game???

).

Because I already had a modest though serious point I wanted to deal with and felt was at least as worth my vote, and possibly more, than a random reason; your vote on Porkens for rolefishing. That is to say, I felt I'd missed enough random stage and seen something directly relevant enough that skipping straight to a more serious vote would be reasonable and productive. Mykonian did not only avoid voting during the random stage when he was around (minor point) but he seemed very slow to take stances in the more serious stages, especially in being proactive in scumhunting and voting suspects.

This is kinda the part that bugs me, in that she votes for Mykonian based entirely on reasons already put foreward by other players. This means she can shift any accountability to the people she followed onto the vote. If she's scum and knows Mykonian is town, this is a safe way to vote a townie.

First of all I take full responsibility for that vote. Second of all, I don't think I voted entirely for reasons put forth by other players: I think (correct me if I'm wrong) I was the only one who read Myk's request for meta and following vote specifically as a known (to myself, from a game no one here was in or mentioned) scum tactic (and unsound as well). The straw that broke the camel's back for me suspecting Myk, as you can probably tell from my sudden switch to ALL CAPS, was the fact that I immediately saw it as scum manipulation and a major major tell.

On other points: The post you dissected was a reread post. I had been busy and needed to catch up on a whole lot of stuff I'd missed. In some instances as I read things I formed opinions and conclusions, in some instances similar to or the same as those that others had already posted. If I quoted anyone whom I agreed with, it was because I noticed this as I put together my post and found that what I was quoting expressed my opinions as well or better or more clearly than I was.

Zilla, how do you define the term 'rolefishing'?

I didn't see anything come of this.

This was because you pointed out the flawed premise for some of my points against you: your response was intended to give me a better idea of whether or not your stances were reasonable, townie, &c. Having cleared up said flawed premise it was less of an issue.

This also strikes me as odd, especially in the way she phrases it. "Why am I still getting a strong scumvibe" dares the player to explain it away, rather than confirm it. I'd say it's a potential slip if Llama is scum.

My phrasing was expressing my frustration. As someone has said - Llama doen't seem to be playing like him as I played with him when he was town, nor does he seem to be playing to my impression (admittedly my impression is limited) of how he'd play as scum. I was also frustrated that I had a vibe but not yet anything concrete about where the vibe was coming from/what was causing it.

I have to admit that I don't know what she's talking about here.

I was trying to say that I'd been more inclined to seriously consider turning my FOS on Porkens into a vote before he softclaimed Dayvig who just shot lurker-scum.

If not Zilla, I'd look at Plum or Llama. Neither of the two is playing to their town meta. I've mentioned this before.

Have you? I don't recall, and ctrl-F isn't helping, but that's certainly not the point. Can you explain in what way I'm not playing to my town-meta?

Talking about multiple scum groups

isn't

a distraction. It would mean that not all scum have to be connected to Afat. If someone looks scummy, but looks like there's no way they are afat's buddy, they can still be scum. Ok, so we don't have many connections to afat this early. But if anything comes up, and we've determined what is most likely, it can help us out a lot later.

Kmd, Afatchic was killed with no connections whatsoever. Random-vote banter notwithstanding, there are no connections and there won't be any forming any time soon. Today discussion about multiple scumgroups is a complete and utter waste of time and energy.

Be advised that I am already working on an extensive post about two suspects. Sneak preview: VP Baltar and LlamaFluff.

[Plum]

Plum, you are usually very active and very wordy. I see that you are catching up now, but lurking just didn't seem like you.

I understand and I've already apologized. If you think you'd benefit from a more detailed explanation of just where all my time and energy got diverted to this week, I'll be glad to provide it. I unexpectedly had basically no access to a computer to get to this game the last two nights, if that's helpful. I've tried to be as wordy and active as I've been able to in each post (well, the first one was still with us just barely getting out of the random stage, so it wasn't too long).

But it's not lurking that has me worried about Llama. Well, actually, I guess that's part of it. He isn't controlling the game. He's not saying "ok, here's who we're lynching. Back off of this person and vote for this person". And most importantly, he doesn't have a vote out.

I'm not sure it's scummy as much as it's... weird...

You know what this reminds me of? DGB in Majora's Mask. She was similar: Totally not her scum-self or her town-self as I knew them, less active, &c. Also scum.

In other news, I'm still putting together the VP Baltar part of my in-depth analysis post.

[Plum]

All right. I have two players whom I'd now like to examine in depth: VP Baltar and Llama.

VP Baltar:

Parroting or not, I'm giving this my all:

His Post 118 gave the strong impression that Baltar believed Zilla to be

very probable

scum. In fact, there is a total of two decent-ish points made which work as tells outside the realm of the Zilla-Myk scumteam theory. TWO. Three if you count his arguable point about Myk testing the waters on a wagon on him, which he does not mention in his case. He doesn't ever formalize his case against Zilla, his apparent top suspect. He'd made a total of one short, unelaborated point against her:

What's scummy about FoS/voting 4 players? Even outside of RVS?

I'm pretty sure it's the timeframe in which you did it in. You could have been simply testing the waters to see what stuck. I'm of the belief that this is definitely what your Porkens vote was.

And in Post 118 he questions Zilla about her spaghetti tactics and argues against her Porkens' vote's seriousness.

This is a scum semantics argument, and it looks like you're trying to back out of your commitment to it now.

The point is that at least some part of you thought Porkens was seriously rolefishing. Due to it only being 25% serious, do you think it should be disregarded as a point against you?

I will now turn to Zilla's suggestion that the bolded sentences constitute a scumslip (or indicate a scum-view of the game . . . which is admittedly the same thing ). Answer: Well, it's not strong enough to put all my money on just that; it's only a word or two off of 'The point is that you say that at least some part of you thought Porkens was seriously rolefishing.'

You also jumped on Kmd, mykonian and myself shortly after we started questioning you. It seems to me that as soon as anyone questions you, you are ready to FOS, vote them or call them possible scum and generally for very weak reasons. It's all a bit reactionary.

But she didn't jump on Charter or Porkens, the players in question. She merely commented on her views of them given that they were voting for her. That's not a scummy OMGUS reaction at all. Misrep much?

I dislike forming connections between people until after alignment flips

Really? You seem to be doing it when you are asking specific people for opinions on other specific players. I'm just being much more explicit about it. Obviously it iss not guaranteed that Zilla is scum if mykon flips, but let me ask you this, based on the case I made would you be suspicious of her if he did flip scum?

Asking for opinions of specific players helps give more of a paper trail and expose those voting or marking down players as town for weak, illogical, or scummy reasons. It serves many purposes, but I've yet to see connections be pointed out on Day 1 in a way that helps the town more than the scum. It can distract from the actual sort of Day 1 scumhunting we can succeed at and I have seen it used as a scum tactic for that purpose (well, I remember scum saying that the town getting involved in declaring potential scumteams gave them joy. Hm).

Does that appear to be what I am doing? I haven't moved my vote from mykon since I placed it...which was at a time when the Zilla wagon was at 4 votes and going strong, while the mykon wagon was at 2 and getting little attention.

Whether or not you're moving your vote is irrelevant. Whether or not you're using scummy tactics to leave your options open, whichever of them you choose to take, is. Your justification is unsatisfying (but a very minor component of my case against you).

:arrow:

I would have been fine if Zilla attacked mykon over his

reasons

for attacking her. Those were weak and largely unstated at that point, but she votes him over a perceived "reluctance to commit to a vote". Weak sauce. She tacks on his defense of Porkens. I'm curious, do you think that was a good reason as well?

I've been suspicious of mykonian since early in the game when he was testing the waters of my "wagon" early in the game. His complete reluctance to vote even after the game was well out of the RVS is scummy.

She voted him for one of the two reasons you gave against him that work as tells independent of the scumbuddies-based case. You also seemed to think that his reluctance to vote was scummy. How the hell are you calling that 'weak sauce'? Why do you find Zilla's vote on him for a reason you also saw as legitimate so not fine? Your case for the two of them being scumbuddies is falling apart at the seams; your argument that Zilla's vote on Myk was possible-probable distancing conflicts with the fact that you agreed with one of her major points against Myk in your own case against him. Crumble, scum. Go ahead and crumble.

You were making it out that I supported their lynches equally, which is not true. The point I was making about Zilla's wagon being the leading one at the time is this: why would I, as scum, not vote for Zilla's wagon that was gaining steam when it wouldn't have been suspicious at all to do so? Even though mykon was second wagon, wouldn't the obvious play there for scum have been to go after the wagon most likely to lynch in the shortest possible time?

That's all wifom, of course, but so was your point, so I think it's fair to consider.

WIFOM defense is defense that is useless and scummy, and I don't see how Incog's point was WIFOM.

In conclusion, the original case for Zilla-Myk scumbuddies was weak and had potentially very scummy motives. The defenses you bring include scummy WIFOM defense and your continued push for the case that they're scum together has exposed some of the holes in it: In fact, from what I uncovered (mostly that stuff after the little arrow emoticon; I think that's new and in any case personally find it extremely compelling) I'm reasonably confident in saying that you inentionally, scummily fabricated it and it's falling apart.

Unvote; Vote: VP Baltar

His last post makes me think he is scum that sees his dreams come true: two wagons on town.

I actually now think that that is probable.

was the fact that I immediately saw it as scum manipulation and a major major tell.

how was this manipulation by scum? You can't see this as a case coming from town? Please explain why, because you seem to be very sure about it.

At least at first I was very sure of it, or at least thought it was a very strong tell, mostly because I'd seen scum do just that in a Lovers Open setup. Empking asked for Mith's meta and then tried to argue that he was playing to his scum meta, not his town meta. Emp was scum and Mith was town. Thus my initial reaction to you, who I was already starting to see as somewhat scummy, doing something which looked strikingly similar was pretty strong.

For various reasons, though, I'm less enamored of the case against you now.

Go read Mini 672 and tell me Charter doesn't tunnel as town.

So you say he tunnels as town and Zilla says he tunnels as scum. You both may be right. If all he's doing is tunneling, basically, how do you propose to go about reading him (note: I plan to do analysis of Charter at my earliest convenience, probably tomorrow night. The Llama analysis may have to wait until then too; sorry).

[Plum]

I would also believe you if you claimed clown, I think.

But she didn't jump on Charter or Porkens, the players in question. She merely commented on her views of them given that they were voting for her. That's not a scummy OMGUS reaction at all. Misrep much?

She did, however, jump on mykon, myself and Kmd when questioned. Which is what I said. How is that misrep?[/quote]

Look here:

porkens and charter. I don't like porkens saying he likes the Zilla wagon, but I don't think he's scum for it. Again, I see newbie, not scum. Charter is just being super tunnel vision as usual, and is a null tell.

You

also

jumped on Kmd, mykonian and myself shortly after we started questioning you.

It seems to me that as soon as anyone questions you, you are ready to FOS, vote them or call them possible scum and generally for very weak reasons. It's all a bit reactionary.

Let me see if I have the sequence of events straight:

You ask Zilla 'Is there anyone in this game that has questioned you who you haven't immediately OMGUSed?' She replied that Charter and Porkens fell into that category. You replied that she

did

start to suspect players suspecting her in the cases of yourself, Kmd, and Mykonian. I suppose if I read the first sentence as 'But you jumped on Kmd, mykonian and myself shortly after we started questioning you' it's okay &c.

(Zilla) voted (mykon) for one of the two reasons you gave against him that work as tells independent of the scumbuddies-based case. You also seemed to think that his reluctance to vote was scummy.

It looks scummier from a third party view, imo. If I know I'm town, and someone says 'hey this was kind of scummy, I need to investigate more before I vote', then I might be inclined to think they are town giving me the benefit of the doubt. Whereas, if I'm a third party observer and I see a player him-hawing around a vote I would see it as suspicious because I don't know either player's alignment.

I can make little sense of this defense, but if you're saying what I think you're saying I have two words for you: Weak sauce. All right, all right, let me say this: You were trying to continue to push the legitimacy of your linked Myko/Zilla attack by asking whether their votes looked sound. Incog said that yeah, actually, Myko's was bad but Zilla's was pretty okay because Myko

had

been fence-sitting.

You attack Zilla for reacting to people who suspect her by starting to suspect them (OMGUS). But if she manages to partly break out of her own personal mindset and see an objective, decent, legitimate scumtell which you agree is a scumtell and vote on it, you attack her for not seeing things too personally?

I'm being kicked off the computer for the night around this point. More stuff coming as more stuff is coming.

[Plum]

VP Baltar

, allow me to clear some stuff up.[/b]

I do find it scummy though to suggest that both of the leading wagons might be on scum since that kind of position allows for a hypo-scum to easily sway from one wagon to the next.

Does that appear to be what I am doing? I haven't moved my vote from mykon since I placed it...which was at a time when the Zilla wagon was at 4 votes and going strong, while the mykon wagon was at 2 and getting little attention.

I do find it scummy though to suggest that both of the leading wagons might be on scum since that kind of position allows for a hypo-scum to easily sway from one wagon to the next.

Does that appear to be what I am doing? I haven't moved my vote from mykon since I placed it...which was at a time when the Zilla wagon was at 4 votes and going strong, while the mykon wagon was at 2 and getting little attention.

Sure, you haven't ever switched your vote to the Zilla-wagon, but you mentioned that you support both cases on both people and then went on to come to the conclusion that they're likely scum together when I think that really seems like an unlikely scenario. Doesn't that suggest that you support both of their lynches today? I don't see what you're arguing here.

Oh and VP: whether or not mykonian only had two votes at that time compared to Zilla's four votes doesn't really matter -- I think by that time when you made your case against the two of them, it seemed pretty evident judging by the people who were making their feelings heard that mykonian was someone who had the potential to receive a good deal of attention.

You were making it out that I supported their lynches equally, which is not true. The point I was making about Zilla's wagon being the leading one at the time is this: why would I, as scum, not vote for Zilla's wagon that was gaining steam when it wouldn't have been suspicious at all to do so? Even though mykon was second wagon, wouldn't the obvious play there for scum have been to go after the wagon most likely to lynch in the shortest possible time?

That's all wifom, of course, but so was your point, so I think it's fair to consider.

WIFOM defense is defense that is useless and scummy, and I don't see how Incog's point was WIFOM.

I don't see how Incog's point was WIFOM.

He said if I was scum I would have placed my vote on mykon at that time because such and such a reason. How is that not wifom?

I don't see how Incog's point was WIFOM.

He said if I was scum I would have placed my vote on mykon at that time because such and such a reason. How is that not wifom?

WHEN DID I SAY THIS?

LOL.

WHEN DID I SAY THIS?

I'm referring to this:

whether or not mykonian only had two votes at that time compared to Zilla's four votes doesn't really matter -- I think by that time when you made your case against the two of them, it seemed pretty evident judging by the people who were making their feelings heard that mykonian was someone who had the potential to receive a good deal of attention.

you're implying there that I voted mykonian because I thought he "had the potential to receive a good deal of attention", rather than being scummy. That is what I was calling wifom.

First of all, I do not believe it actually falls under the category of 'WIFOM', but that's basically irrelevant. Incog was implying that you had scummy motivation to make a linked case on Myko and Zilla, the better to swing from bandwagon to bandwagon like Tarzan on some handily-placed vines. You replied that you weren't swinging, and you seemed to imply that you were less opportunistic for going after Myko, the guy with fewer votes on him. Incog responded with a summary of why that defense was inadequate and why his point still stood - as far as I can see, he said that just because you hadn't switched your vote to Zilla didn't mean that you didn't scummily try to put yourself in a position where you could switch from one bandwagon to the other with ease. He then also said that your implication that you were being less opportunistic by voting the Myko wagon was weak as well, because at the time Myko looked likely to be garnering attention and possibly votes anyway. You call that point WIFOM. I tell you I don't see how it could possibly be WIFOM. You say it was because 'He said if I was scum I would have placed my vote on mykon at that time because such and such a reason' - but by the way, your original point that as scum you would have voted for Zilla - that, possibly, qualifies as WIFOM, you know. Incog is incredulous, and you cite his argument against your WIFOM-y implied defense that you were being less opportunistic in voting Myko as an instance of this. It was not. He was saying that your point about voting Myko who had two votes over Zilla who had four was irrelevant. That's it.

I call BS, basically.

More to come (gah, I fall behind once and then it's

always

more to come - sorry); just wanted to clear this up.

Also, if you haven't, take a look at my argument where I show that VP's attempt to legitimatize his linked Myko-Zilla case (before the backtracking; yes, I'm calling it backtracking) ends up with him contradicting himself and acting as an in-game hypocrite (when he makes a case, it seems, Myko's early reluctance to vote &c. is a real legitimate scumtell, but when Zilla cites it it's 'weak sauce' because apparently she should have seen it more subjectively and thought Myko was giving her the benefit of the doubt, but when she attacks those who attack her with arguments VP finds strong enough to use in cases against them, it's scummy OMGUS (well, the last point applying to her vote on Myko, anyway, which he lumps in his 'Zilla keep making these OMGUS attacks').

I think I got that right.

Anyway, if I do say so myself, it's worth the read. There, Kmd, long and wordy enough for you? Don't worry, you've got onto my list of players to investigate. And yes, I wish I had more/better town meta on you.

tl;dr: VP Baltar is no less scummy.

[Plum]

Plum, what do you think of Llama? You said you were going to prepare a case on him, but now seem to have abandoned that for repeating your points against me. I read them the first time, and I'm sure everyone else did as well. I'd like to see your analysis of Llama now.

I was busy today and my first priority has been refuting you. Nevertheless, I did pledge to put together some thoughts on Llama, so I'll do what I may. May I first ask you if/when you plan to respond to my

new

points against you and my

new refutations

of your counterarguments to my original case?

LlamaFluff

Llama, oh, Llama, whatever shall we do with you?

All right. First things I notice are lack of explanation for random vote, which I find compellingly null, possibly more interesting in the random stage, but whatever. Funnily enough, his random vote is on VP Baltar. I'll note that as a funky coincidence for now.

His next post questions Myko a lot, but the one after that is all about Zilla - he votes her here with almost no prior warning or indication that such was the way he was leaning. Having reread Page 2, where the doublevoter and rolefishing shenanigans originated, his read of things seems a little more understandable (it might be the fact that I stepped in slightly after this stuff had started, but I'm not the only one who read Zilla's original 'doublevote' post as a completely obvious joke, am I?). The weird part here was that Zilla's vote on Porkens came on page two, the offness on the subject Llama objected to was noted over the course of page three (where Llama made the post which basically focused on questioning Myko) . . . and he didn't change his professed completely reasonless vote on VP Baltar until midway Page 4 when he makes his early Zilla case. It's a bit odd, but it's early game and not

very

odd. And, if I recall, the game was moving fairly quickly at this point. He does later say that he was waiting on giving his feelings on Zilla a bit for sorta odd reasons - he was confirming 'where Myko was going' (all right, that's a paraphrase) and then voted, and that made him more comfortable with Myko, because they were thinking along the same lines (can I ask what you thought of me at the time, out of sheerest curiosity?).

All right, I have ten minutes left and surely that last paragraph could've been more efficient.

Call for Porkens to fullclaim is bad, and especially shady is the fact that in the post where he calls for that full claim he writes:

I see basically no way Porkens is scum without two scum teams in this game. Very small but there is a SK who can only make day kills, but he is nearly certain town with that kill.

The fact that he rags a bit on Porkens for using his kill when he did is also weird. Personally, I like Vigs to kill scum however they can get it, whether it's technically 'correct' according to Mafia Theory or not (though heaven knows I'm a fairly conservative Vig who also happens to generally be a pretty poor shot).

Then he basically lurks. Post comes with little substance but 'No, I'm not commenting right now, but stuff will happen probs, and also I want to hear stuff from unspecified persons'.

I disagree with how its used, thats not something that makes him someone to lynch, just reckless. I still kind of want him to roleclaim though. With a role more descriptive then "mafia" shown already, something just flipping "One shot day vig" is odd.

First of all, no - (one-shot) Day Vig is not

exactly

a bread-and-butter role. Second - no, he shouldn't be roleclaiming, and also why do you want that if you think he's pretty unlikely scum?

Then the VP case, which is basically the general VP case -

I need to go. This going up now. Good night, friends.

[Plum]

I still don't want to lynch a claimed doc uncountered, but it does seem to be a fakeclaim based on flavor.

I've learned the (relatively) hard way that lynching an uncountered Doc Day 1 is not a good idea even if the player in question looks pretty scummy. I also am much disinclined to attempt to outguess the Mod Day 1 as well (though we've already got a dead scumbag, so we're in a position where we can afford to risk a bit more than I'd normally be comfortable with, I'd still rather look for another lynch: Zazie would do well to show up, I have the bad feeling Charter is slipping under the radar, I haven't finished analysis and conclusions on Llama, and Kmd also deserves a look-at on my part &c. To conclude: I'm probably not up for lynching VP today, barring stronger evidence that flavor doesn't fit or a counterclaim).

Unvote: VP Baltar

Hopefully I'll have my vote somewhere I'm confident in before the night is out; I need to collect some thoughts.

Who is your number 1 right now out of Llama, kmd and myself? I think we need to make some decisions by tomorrow, because whoever is going to be the lynch needs to claim soon just incase. I don't like having to switch the wagons at the last moment.

This post felt a bit weird yesterday and it still feels weird - VP knew he was far and away the likeliest suspect to get into claiming territory by today or so and seems eager for the chance to claim . . . it may be the fact that he's my top suspect for what I consider pretty good reasons, but it feels like he was ready(ing himself) to fakeclaim Doc (and on the other hand, if he is a Doc this is fairly reasonable. It's vibes here combined with previous reads of the guy, I guess).

Yeah, I'm not counterclaiming VP either.

No I mean like hang on the coattails of others' arguments. I mean, she does seem to be producing some original ideas but a lot of them are ideas or points that have been made before just dressed up in a different tuxedo.

I saw her do that in a lovers game we played together. She backed Crazy 100% that Zazie was scum. Crazy, just before being lynched, called Zazie town. The next day, Plum agreed that Zazie was probably town. Plum was scum in that game by the way.

That's the only time I can remember her blindly agreeing with people. But I don't see where she's done that here.

Well, shoot, in a Lovers setup where I'm scum and two townies go and

create a dichotomy between themselves

, I sure will . Nevertheless, I've not tried to do this here (and I think others are perhaps more guilty of this than me, but that's besides the point). I made my own investigation of VP Baltar, noting new inconsistencies within his own arguments and possible misrepresentation by him, both of which helped convince me of the validity of the overarching case against him. Part of what you may be seeing is the fact that for a lot of the day I've been in catch-up mode: That's a lot of rereading, coming to conclusions others have posted before me (though not before I thought about it for myself), noting players who express my own opinions or opinions I think are worthy very well &c. The fact that I've been in said catch-up mode a lot almost certainly is what accounts for this 'third person perspective' issue you have with me, Incog; I feel like I recognize the syndrome. If you'd like examples I'll be happy to bring some.

[Plum]

SWEET.

Huh?

Kmd, I knew you were scum because of the kill on me . . . which apparently wasn't from you . . . the way you attacked me for not being as verbose then got off me and then the way you responded to Incog asking if I ever buddied the way he thought I did and you brought up Lovers Mafia while in the same breath saying

it wasn't the same thing

was so, so off.

Llama, I also knew that the Myko lynch was the wrong wrong wrong idea.

Scum quicktopics??? Camn and Charter, why did you kill me (I always love hearing this part . . . it always helps make up for the fact that I keep getting killed Night 1, especially in SpyreX's games)?

Gutsy moves this game go to Zilla claiming Doc instead of JK and Kmd submitting a no-kill when he was the only member of his scumgroup left alive. I salute you both. Zilla more, because her awesome helped win the game for us Villagers!

[Plum]

This game was a bit theme-heavy for a mini-Normal. I wouldn't have minded at all had I been a little more prepared for it. As it stands, I didn't mind

much

, and most of the craziness happened after I died.

It seems plum and ZazieR didn't really affect the game that much :/.

Alas . It's not that I didn't want to. Day 1 caught me on a legitimately busy week . . . and then I got killed.