Mini 803 - Pale Moon Risin' (Over!)

[Zilla]

/in and active.

[Zilla]

vote: LlamaFluff

for not posting anything but a vote. Even a bad justification is better than none.

Finger of awesome: Incognito

for doing something unorthodox.

[Zilla]

Ninja'd.

doublevote: afatchic

for the same reason as Llamafluff.

[Zilla]

vote: LlamaFluff

for not posting anything but a vote. Even a bad justification is better than none.

Why?

accountability.

[Zilla]

unvote
Vote: Porkens

for rolefishing.

[Zilla]

@ KMD

No, it wasn't serious.

@ Plum

Serious? And what put me on this "list'?

[Zilla]

What's scummy about FoS/voting 4 players? Even outside of RVS?

[Zilla]

Okay seriousmode now.

I wanted to see what Plum's reaction was to me saying my Porkens vote wasn't serious, but then a page went by with no plum and tons of people basically making my question lose impact.

You're all going to accuse me of something for it, but that's okay. I actually was about 25% serious in voting for Porken based on his first reaction, 36.

I do like the "case" building on me though, it's our gate out of RVS.

for now though,

unvote: porkens
Vote: Mykonian

I really don't like his stance here, I'm thinking his reluctance to commit to a vote on me is because he knows that this case leads to a mislynch and he can't quite bring himself to commit to it on such shaky logic. I also didn't like his 48 unbidden defense of Porkens.

For the record, I'm slightly suspicious of KMD because he's usually obvtown no matter what his alignment is, and this time I'm not getting that feel from him. I don't know what this means though.

Also, Incognito, you modded a marathon game with me, I'm pretty sure. It's possible those don't count for you though .

I haven't played with afatchic, porkens, plum, or camn, and I think I only modded a marathon game with ZazieR. And I can't remember if she was the one who was replaced before the game started or not.

[Zilla]

Charter: explain your reason for saying I "backed down"

[Zilla]

Charter: What makes you say that my vote had to be serious in the first place? I think there's a difference in what everyone thinks is serious and not.

Basically, I was serious in the aspect that I suspected him of rolefishing, but I wasn't seriously considering lynching him over it.

Charter tunneling was trademark of scum-Charter in Family Guy mafia. He's opposite of Mykonian in that he'll blindly commit to a case.

Mykonian, I said nothing about how you had no vote in RVS and said everything on your hesitation to lay down a serious vote. It's not like you can't have a serious vote until someone declares RVS is over.

[Zilla]

Zilla's post 78 pretty enforces the idea of her being scum. She has finally found a place where her vote will stick. The reasons she is voting for mykonian are crap too, it boils down entirely to WIFOM.

Explain "place where her vote will stick" and "boils down entirely to WIFOM."

[Zilla]

Then you have no dispute with me and my argument is completely valid.

[Zilla]

Mykonian, you're claiming two things at once. You're saying you don't want to random vote, and that your vote is "worthless" now, and you alternate between the two, and neither make any sense.

The first makes no sense because it's only random voting if you're doing it for random reasons. If you have a serious reason, it's not a random vote. The second also makes no sense because it shouldn't matter who looks at your vote. It's paranoid scum who worry about how their vote looks.

I'm not claiming doublevoter. It was a mechanism to draw discussion, which it did. Porkens then asked if I was a doublevoter. That was the reaction I was looking for, and that's why I voted him. Llama, I assume you see the bad logic in saying:

If that vote was at all serious, thats just a very bad vote. Its a very obvious ability, and easily could lynch someone when someone just wanted a claim out of them. These are very double edged blades.

Firstly, nobody else was voting Porkens and I fully didn't expect it to be a lynch. Secondly, I already implied I was a doublevoter before voting Porkens. Nobody would put him at L-1 without questioning if I counted twice. Thirdly, you're arguing that, in the event I was a doublevoter and serious, that voting at all is apparently bad, and this has nothing to do with voting Porkens.

Also.

Not even close to rolefishing. You basically claimed DV early on, and judging by the last votecount, that doesnt really hold up. Also I dont really see anything wrong with a DV either claiming early either for their own benifit, and the benifit of the town as to not accidently quick lynch a player.

This is no basis for voting me. There's no implication that I must be scum in this at all. I fake-soft-claimed doublevoter in RVS. What possible scum motivation aside from WIFOM is there? You say you don't believe Porkens was rolefishing and so you don't agree with my vote, but again, where does that implicate me as scum? Also, I don't believe you don't see how it's able to be construed as rolefishing. Sure, it's something town can ask too, which is why it was hardly serious, but again, why does voting on that make me scum?

Weak case is weak.

[Zilla]

Zilla, why give flak to LlamaFluff claiming that his lack of a reason for his random vote removes accountability from his vote and then freely admit that all of your votes thus far which actually had reasons were all random and meaningless?

I said they weren't serious, meaning I didn't have much impetus to keep my vote there. They were, indeed, mostly random, but they weren't meaningless.

"Spaghetti strategy" is not just a scum strategy. That's how I like to scumhunt. I am throwing accusations around to see what sticks, but apparently not in the way you're thinking, I'm not seeing which of my cases sticks with town, I'm seeing what reactions my accusations are getting. Right now, I'm reading stupid-Charter, suspicious Llama, and hyper-suspicious Mykonian. I also want to know why Llama dropped Mykonian to focus on me.

Why did I ignore your reasonless vote? Which one? I know you did one where you voted in a separate post from your reason, but you still gave that reason.

*does investigating*

Oh, it was ZazieR who was throwing flak at Mykonian, not you. Avatar problem. It made sense in my mind at the time...

Llama, nice buddying to everyone, especially saying everyone is "doing the right thing." Not saying this indicates you're scum because apparently you're just as manipulative as town though. Porkens asked if I was really a double-voter. To me, that was mildly suspicious, and at the very least, a better vote than my first two. I didn't see it as necessary to ask and then go with "we'll find out in the votecount."

This is Family Guy mafia all over again...

BTW, there's one of me as town, Incog. I didn't keep track of it so I have to go find it.

[Zilla]

Zilla, why give flak to LlamaFluff claiming that his lack of a reason for his random vote removes accountability from his vote and then freely admit that all of your votes thus far which actually had reasons were all random and meaningless?

I said they weren't serious, meaning I didn't have much impetus to keep my vote there. They were, indeed, mostly random, but they weren't meaningless.

"Spaghetti strategy" is not just a scum strategy. That's how I like to scumhunt. I am throwing accusations around to see what sticks, but apparently not in the way you're thinking, I'm not seeing which of my cases sticks with town, I'm seeing what reactions my accusations are getting. Right now, I'm reading stupid-Charter, suspicious Llama, and hyper-suspicious Mykonian. I also want to know why Llama dropped Mykonian to focus on me.

Why did I ignore your reasonless vote? Which one? I know you did one where you voted in a separate post from your reason, but you still gave that reason.

*does investigating*

Oh, it was ZazieR who was throwing flak at Mykonian, not you. Avatar problem. It made sense in my mind at the time...

Llama, nice buddying to everyone, especially saying everyone is "doing the right thing." Not saying this indicates you're scum because apparently you're just as manipulative as town though. Porkens asked if I was really a double-voter. To me, that was mildly suspicious, and at the very least, a better vote than my first two. I didn't see it as necessary to ask and then go with "we'll find out in the votecount."

This is Family Guy mafia all over again...

BTW, there's one of me as town, Incog.

[Zilla]

Also, I never lied about it. I never said it was serious. 25% serious is 75% not-serious.

[Zilla]

You also get to see town-Llama, town-KMD, and scum-Charter in that game.

[Zilla]

Another one?

I replaced in near the end of this game as town.

Drawn Together with LlamaFluff as "I've given up" town.

There was a newbie game somewhere, but it's going to take a bit to find it.

Did you miss my link to Family Guy in the last post?

[Zilla]

IIT: Charter is his usual self, null-read.

KMD: Notice that Family Guy is also the only one I was around in RVS for. If you want a treasure trove of games that I didn't replace into, you'll have to bear with it being offsite. The most notorious one is one that didn't finish, but I was town in: Bioshock Mafia. I vote no less than 4 people in day 1, each time convinced they were scum.

Another: Friday the 13th Mafia

A more recent: Generically Named Mafia.

Evil Dead Mafia where I was lynched Day 1.

[Zilla]

Oy, Bioshock Mafia should end in a [/url] tag, not a quote tag.

Mod: pretty please fix my rag-tag tags?

Fixed.

[Zilla]

arg, drawn together.

lets forget that one...

But, ehh, zilla. You have a small problem. In those games, you don't play like you do here, aggressively attacking multiple people with cases that are not that strong. You are accused of attacking, and see what holds. I've only seen you accused of that once, where you defended in the same way. As scum, in Merrin. It is definately your scum strategy.

vote zilla

: L-2

You didn't read the last day of Drawn Together, did you?

[Zilla]

To elaborate: I replaced into Drawn Together as an already investigated and claimed townie. At that point in the game, we weren't really scumhunting as much as manipulating our power roles as much as we could to find scum. The last two days are pretinant, however, because at that point, the cop was no longer trusted (at least to me). look to those two days to see me actually scumhunting (and Llama flaking XD).

[Zilla]

Question for you: why do you think a Porkens-scum would be more likely than a Porkens-town to ask you about whether or not you were seriously claiming a double vote ability?

Thanks for asking. I think scum are more worried about a double-voter because it's a larger factor they have to try to control, plus it severely impacts their strategy for night 1. Whether he's town or scum, he posted on the fly without regard to how his questioning might look, and I think town's reaction would be less incredulous and more curious.

"Is that a REAL doublevote?" strikes me as worse than, "Are you claiming doublevoter?" The first has a bit of "oh shit" in it.

I don't see the appeal for VP Baltar's "Zilla being bussed by mykonian-scum" theory. The fact that he built a complete case against mykonian under the premonition that Zilla is scum is creepy. VP Baltar, do you see mykonian as scummy independent of his interactions of Zilla? Your case only seems to work under the assumption that Zilla is definitely scum here, and we haven't had an alignment flip yet sooo, yeah.

I too, am severely unnerved by the groundwork of his case. What he's said about me thus far:

I'm pretty sure it's the timeframe in which you did it in. You could have been simply testing the waters to see what stuck. I'm of the belief that this is definitely what your Porkens vote was.

Note things like "I'm pretty sure" and "you could have been simply."

....

Aww, I had a quote block prepared and everything.

He didn't say anything else other than "I support the Zilla case."

HUGE FOS: VP Baltar

It almost makes me reconsider my mykonian vote.

mykonian's defense to VP Baltar's case is also weird:

and baltar, I don't know, but scum, bussing serious on page 5? Not a lot would do that, I think. The distancing-bussing story seems a little far-fetched.

Why "seems" a little far-fetched? If you're town here, wouldn't you

know

whether or not it's far-fetched?

Is that all you found weird?

also, like I said, early in the game, votes aren't that serious, and won't be looked upon that much. Here you know I'm serious, my vote has some use, other then bringing a lynch closer.

Why is a vote now any different from a vote then?

mykonian's vote on Zilla strikes me as extremely scummy. I find it odd that he supposedly spent 30 or so minutes meta-gaming Zilla and then finally placed his vote down on her. It seemed like he was leaning towards doing that from

page 3

anyway, so I really dislike how he felt the need to build up to it.

Can we get a wagon on mykonian instead? He's FAR scummier.

The fact that so much of the thread seems to be ignoring this really creeps me out.

Ditto. Also noted: LlamaFluff's ignoring of Mykonian on shaky reasoning, VP's condition that Mykonian is only scum if I'm a scumbuddy, and KMD totally forgetting he was suspecting Mykonian.

[Zilla]

While I appreciate Camn's support, I'm at odds with some of her reads.

1.Kmd4390
If Zilla is scum, KMD is town. He is on her from the start. Of course, then he mentions that we should never underestimate how hard someone will buss...
What? Only 10 posts? I was certainly under the impression he was more prolific in this game?
Null read.

Why is KMD only measured by his interaction with me?

2.ZazieR
Wow. This is harder than it usually is.
Zazie seems to me mind-melded with KMD regarding the Zilla situation. Maybe they think alike? Maybe they are scum together?
Null Read as well.

ZazieR hasn't commented nearly as much as KMD. I don't view them as synonymous at all.

3.Plum
You can't have "lots-o-fun" unless you post more! You are ALSO on Zilla from post 0. hmm.
No read.

I feel this could use more analysis than is being given, especially given that her two posts were probably timed as well as any two posts could be and they were full of content. How do you feel about her change in direction?

4.LlamaFluff
I get a slight scum-read here. Especially when he said "I like people to vote as it forces them to put up some suspicions" in HIS post 5... after refusing to lay out any reasoning for his own votes. Maybe I am just hypersensitive to no-reason-STATED-votes.... but it seems slightly hypocritical.

Is that all you noticed about him? What about dropping/reversing on Mykonian?

5.Porkens
Totally wasn't rolefishing.
Fails at tags.
Not very many posts.
Not the Porkens I know and Love. Maybe it is because he is behind. . . so I will cut him a break. But Please.. ponder. Get us something to read here.
6.afatchic
DieLurkerDie?
7.camn
ObvTown:)
Wait.. ONly 9 posts? I thought she had been more prolific in this game, too!!

No comment.

8.Mykonian
Ah, Incog. I see what you mean about him being scummy.
I especially see it starting at 91
Then the threat to Lurker-vote... but we certainly have a lurker he could have voted.. so what was that about?
However, the meta on Zilla might be accurate.. I havn't checked it yet. And as KMD says, a good buss can take you a long way.... probscum.

Why Incognito's points and not mine? Also, you're not understanding his "threat to lurker-vote" being directed at charter.

Also, I assure you the meta isn't accurate if you use your noodle while viewing it. There were a LOT of games I played where I replaced in rather than started from the beginning. In fact, Family Guy is the only one I can think of where I was in it from the beginning and town. I later replaced back in after my first death as town again as well. This means that I'm absent from RVS as scum.

For scum from start, see Unclean Mafia or Lover mafia. Unclean is more standard, of course. Lover shows I'm risky as scum for my shennanigans with SensFan day 2 (horrible pick of a person to try this with).

[Zilla]

9.Charter
I have been trying to read charter with fresh eyes, because I have always had skewed reads on him in the past.
I am not a big fan of how he has hardly posted, but is simply naming the scum... but he doesn't read as scummy to me as he used to (in previous games, where he ended up being town). Which means he is probably scum? Smile Maybe-scum... Pls post more!

So null?

10.Incognito
Hmm. I can't recall ever playing with Incog-scum, so I don't have a complete meta-set on him.. but something is CERTAINLY bugging me about his RVS antics. I can't really pin down what it is, but until I do... Maybe-scum. I REALLY don't like how he dodged my question. Twice. That seems very UN-Incog.

Not to pitch for the catcher, but he didn't ignore your questions. He already said he didn't provide a reason to his vote to check for my consistency (which I failed).

11.Zilla
Hmm.
Although I totally see the case on her, I think it is a thin case, and a scum-driven wagon. I agree with her comments on Mykonian in HER post 7... and I ALSO agree that the so-called "Spaghetti strategy" is not just a scum strategy! In fact, WIFOM aside, it seems that scum would AVOID it, because it is so easy to push a lynch on the grounds of "pushes crap-cases". Townies want to catch scum. So why not throw some shiv around? It seems like a good Day 1 method to me. FOS: Zilla Wagon
I also don't like how there is so much meta-quoting running around. BORING.

What do you "totally see" in the case on me? I ask because it's strange to say you see the case but that you think it's thin and likely scum-driven. Those things would imply you don't see the case. Can you explain this further?

Also: Meta-quoting is bound to happen when so many people know each other from other games.

12.VP Baltar
Not a lot to go on here, either. I get a little whif of IIoA in his last post.. but not much. Prob-town.

No input on his pairing of me and Mykonian? Nothing about his peanut-gallery style of commenting without actual

investigation

of his own? I personally don't like that he's just offering commentary and analysis without trying to procure information himself. This is scummy. He's my number 2, easily.

You support a lurkerlynch? Please elaborate.

Sorry to grill you while finals are happening, but it has to be done.

[Zilla]

KMD, you disagree on the cause of my behavior in those games? What exactly is this meta case that you agree with?

Also, I read that you were suspicious of Mykonian for saying he couldn't be bussing. Now you forgot about that too?

I'm not liking KMD at all this game.

[Zilla]

Hey Charter! We have more backpedallers!

Yes, my vote on Mykonian is WIFOM because it's based on my own alignment and reading into what he's thinking about it, but that option is available to me. It's really sound reasoning from my point of view. I can see that it's a lot weaker for people who don't know my alignment, and while my reason works for me, it only works for me.

Zilla, your meta is far too inconsistent for me to draw conclusions from it.

What am I agreeing with? (Sorry, I worked overnight, so I'm not exactly all here and probably won't be all summer.)

If you're saying my defense of my meta that you need to actually look at the context of the game is weak, I'm assuming you agree that my meta "implicates" me somehow. You weren't being specific, so I asked why you thought my meta impicated me.

You're saying I'm trying to defend with meta, as if I'm relying on that as my defense. Not at all. I'm defending the ATTACK based on my meta, by using my meta. That's as far as I'm using it. Everything else, I answer for with information in this thread. Mykonian says that I'm acting like I did in Merrim, so I'm pointing out how I also play like that as town, if there even is an "also."

Mykonian, what is the similarity between this game and Merrim that you're seeing?

[Zilla]

Missed following up on implicating backpedallers.

I wasn't saying I was suspicious of Myko. I told him that it was a bad defense to be saying he couldn't be bussing. Any vote can easily be bussing. That doesn't mean I think he is scum, it just means that was a bad defense.

Why are you coaching Mykonian? Why would you overlook a poor defense? If you follow your logic, you would be suspicious of Mykonian on the grounds that he claimed the WIFOM of bussing being impossible. Saying you're not suspicious of him is trying to avoid the flak you'd catch for backing out of being suspicious about him. I don't see town justifying that they weren't suspicious of somebody like this.

Now, a weak case in that on this page, KMD again coaches Mykonian over his attack on VP Baltar. I don't like how Mykonian did a 180 because KMD gave his accusation a different label, between "story" and "theory." The exchange of posts 160-162 is odd to say the least. Why does calling it a theory make his 160 statements suddenly void, and why does that offer "insight" any more than a story would?

To VP:

That's how you disregard the point I made against you? I don't even know what you are trying to imply by saying this. Try again.

First, I already answered this with "spaghetti strategy is not scum strategy." Try again.

Second, I'm saying you don't really believe it, but you believe you can sell it, so you're going to try to push it. If you really believed it to be the case, it would be on terms of whether or not it is possible. You laid out that "It could be that you're being scummy, so I believe it." Why couldn't it be a town move?

Well, I guess you got me there....oh, wait, you completely ignored the questions that were put to you in my last post:

Talk about out of context. I was talking about the context of before your case for a Mykonian/Zilla pair, talking about how you assumed I must be scum in order to build your case on Mykonian. I was specifically looking for what you said about me that made me look like obvscum to the point that you built a case on Mykonian from the standpoint that I must be bussing him.

Also, I forgot to answer your question because I had a lot to cover in my post.

Ok, but like Kmd said, if that is what you are doing why were you so willing to let Porkens go? If your goal is to catch scum, then there isn't much point in doing it if you are just going to say that it's only 25% serious. Also, before you set your "trap" did you consider how much flak you were going to get for fakeclaiming double voter? Do you feel that the response against you has been much more than you anticipated?

I don't have a strong feeling about whether porkens is scum or noobish. So far, he's struck me as noobish, so I'm more willing to forgive him. Additionally, I knew my trap was weak sauce, and it was more meant to get us out of RVS with some kind of content to speculate on than to actually catch scum.

Did I consider getting flak, and was the response more than I bargained for? I thought I'd get attention. I also don't think the response is more than I bargained for because Llama was the only one to even really comment on it, the rest are apparently angry at me for voting Porkens on a weak premise (when we were transitioning, thanks to me, out of RVS, I should remind you, with a 75% joke vote). What I want to know is why you asked these questions.

[Zilla]

And I still have VP questions to answer.

@ VP: OMGUS:

porkens and charter. I don't like porkens saying he likes the Zilla wagon, but I don't think he's scum for it. Again, I see newbie, not scum. Charter is just being super tunnel vision as usual, and is a null tell.

@ VP: Mykonian is scum only if Zilla is scum.

You never explicitly said this but it was implied that the lens you were looking at mykonian through was that of "I have to be bussing him." That was a premise that featured center stage in [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 31#1699031]this post.[/quote]

@ VP: Why Mykonian (Why not VP)?

He hasn't done one thing I consider town, and a lot I consider scummy. Your scumminess is more circumstantial, and I can see town making the plays you've made.

@ VP: Peanut gallery.

Your entire case on Mykonian wasn't based on any research into facts, all speculation. You made no effort to obtain more information, instead you used all already existing information and put spin on it. This is an extension of the "You could have been simply" case. You're seeing what angle works best for you.

Now that you've been engaged, you're asking questions, but you're also needing to play a little defensively here. This reactionary style is more suited to scum.

You did ask questions, most of them regarding if Porkens was serious. It seems you never actually do anything with the information you get either...

And here's a gem!

This is a scum semantics argument, and it looks like you're trying to back out of your commitment to it now.

The point is that at least some part of you thought Porkens was seriously rolefishing.

Due to it only being 25% serious, do you think it should be disregarded as a point against you?

Counterpoint: How does seeing Porkens as rolefishing equate to being scum?

I move that the bolded is a giant scumslip. If he thought I was scum, he wouldn't say that the point of my case is that "I seriously thought Porkens was rolefishing." If he thought I was scum, it would have been "I was trying to frame Porkens for rolefishing."

Time to pull a charter.

Caught scum:
Mykonian
VP Baltar

Secondary targets:
LlamaFluff (worse if Mykonian comes up scum)
KMD (worse if Mykonian comes up scum)

I doubt we have 4. I'm more suspicious of Llama, but I was also totally suspicious of him in Family Guy and he ended up being town. I was still suspicious of him even after he claimed. KMD, on the other hand, even being considered suspect is a huge leap for me, so while I suspect Llama more, I'd say KMD has a higher chance of being scum.

LOOK FOR THIS POST IF/WHEN I FLIP.

[Zilla]

Wow, look what that made me miss!

This changes things slightly: namely my accusations between KMD and Llama. I'm going to search for any relevence afatchic had and what people said about her.

Porkens claims dayvig? Awesome job anyhow! (ducks incoming votes for commenting on what just happened).

[Zilla]

B) I DID understand he charter-lurker comment. But if he will vote CHARTER for lurking, why wouldn't he vote AFATCHIC for the same?
Especially considering that with charter, being scummy is practically a way of life, and someone pointed that out?

I had assumed at the time it was because Mykonian was making that comment based on Charter's meta. This needs more explanation by Mykonian, who dodged this completely.

Judo-speculation: Is camn's interest in afatchic solely based on lurking?

I think it is, personally.

Aaaaaand, that's all I found of other players relating to Afatchic.

But now that that has gotten my attention, where is Plum?

[Zilla]

Edit: *crams foot into mouth* Plum just unvoted me.

More participation please?

[Zilla]

I don't think mykonian is scum, because his reason for voting Zilla was crap, and it would be dumb to vote your partner like that if you were scum.

You admit that mykonian's reason for voting Zilla was crap and yet you still come to the conclusion that he's likely not scum? Like

seriously?

Yes. Call it the 'too dumb to be scum' fallacy or whatever, but it's just too sloppy and careless for a scumbag to make, I believe.

You're giving Mykonian a clear because I MUST be scum, right? Where does he sit if I'm town?

Zilla, I really don't see what your problem with Kmd is. It looks to me like it's mostly OMGUS. I don't see where he has backpedaled at all.

Backpedalled regarding his suspicion on Mykonian, and I did a poor job of getting to the point with that.

Also, your VP points don't make any sense. Once again, it all stems from WIFOM.

Elaborate please?

the rest are apparently angry at me for voting Porkens on a weak premise (when we were transitioning, thanks to me, out of RVS, I should remind you, with a 75% joke vote)

...and my vote is parked for the day. Zilla is going way too far with all this chest pounding with getting us out of the RVS. Whoopdie freaking doo. It's not a towntell in the slightest, and yet Zilla is trying to make it out like she's town for doing a scummy action to transition out of the RVS using all this "I did it for reactions" bs.

First, I'm not saying I'm town for getting us out of RVS. I'm saying that my vote on Porkens wasn't all that serious. Second, "all this chest pounding?" Not only does that put a disturbing image in my head, but I haven't been saying that I deserve any town-points for being the one to stir up serious discussion. Third, I never claimed to vote Porkens for reactions. Yes, I wanted to see where plum was going with her "is that serious?" but that had nothing to do with transitioning out of RVS. Fourth, this ignores the actual point, that people are suspecting me for a weak vote.

This is why I hate Charter.

[Zilla]

No, I just find it too hard to believe he would make such an obviously poor vote if scum. He's in the same spot if you're town.

What do you know of Mykonian that allows you to make this call on what he would do?

I don't see any backpedal.

If you think I'm backpedaling on my stance on Porkens, apply that same logic to KMD regarding Mykonian. He DID suspect Mykonian.

b: yes top pick, but

I want to look longer.

Why? (to the bolded)

c: no, just that if I were to accuse him, the case would be ridiculously weak.

Does it matter if a case is weak at this point in the game? A weak case is better than a joke case or no case at all.

I say a vote isn't much use now.

I can't be scared, as votes aren't very much checked in the RVS. They don't say a lot. But if they don't say a lot, why would you vote?

This fails the "if everybody did this, would it help town?" test miserably.

KMD, till now I have not had any problems with games not starting. And I see no reason to make a mess here. I would also like to know how far we are with Zilla, because I've seen a lot of votes on her.

and a weak case is or an excuse for a vote, or something that shows the unvote will come. I'm not interested in that.

O yes, thank you for pointing at charters meta I will vote you on the moment I have the idea you are lurking Smile

I'm just saying that if nobody voted until there was a real reason to, we'd never lynch anyone.

and then, we have:

KMD totally forgetting he was suspecting Mykonian.

Um. I haven't been suspicious of Myko at all in this game.

And then there's how he didn't like Mykonian's response to the Zilla/Mykonian bussing theory. Either he's coaching Mykonian, or he suspects him.

I won't debate with you about my consistency on Porkens because I know it's totally futile. You can have your misguided point there. If you do ever want to get out of your tunnel, take a look at what I've said about my porkens vote again.

Why, if not to try and gain some subliminal townpoints?

Show me in context, and tell me if you can't see why I bring it up, if and when I do.

Stuff like "you don't really believe it, but you believe you can sell it" coupled with the fact that your 'read' on Porkens doesn't say anything, and the only thing we're left with is he accused you of not reponding to a question (which you didn't) and you somehow spin it back on him.

First, let's address that "somehow."

I posted this:

I don't see the appeal for VP Baltar's "Zilla being bussed by mykonian-scum" theory. The fact that he built a complete case against mykonian under the premonition that Zilla is scum is creepy. VP Baltar, do you see mykonian as scummy independent of his interactions of Zilla? Your case only seems to work under the assumption that Zilla is definitely scum here, and we haven't had an alignment flip yet sooo, yeah.

I too, am severely unnerved by the groundwork of his case. What he's said about me thus far:

I'm pretty sure it's the timeframe in which you did it in. You could have been simply testing the waters to see what stuck. I'm of the belief that this is definitely what your Porkens vote was.

Note things like "I'm pretty sure" and "you could have been simply."

....

Aww, I had a quote block prepared and everything.

He didn't say anything else other than "I support the Zilla case."

HUGE FOS: VP Baltar

Then VP posted:

Aww, I had a quote block prepared and everything.

He didn't say anything else other than "I support the Zilla case."

Well, I guess you got me there....oh, wait, you completely ignored the questions that were put to you in my last post:

Then I posted:

I was talking about the context of before your case for a Mykonian/Zilla pair, talking about how you assumed I must be scum in order to build your case on Mykonian. I was specifically looking for what you said about me that made me look like obvscum to the point that you built a case on Mykonian from the standpoint that I must be bussing him.

That "somehow" is justified.

Second, What about his slip?

This is a scum semantics argument, and it looks like you're trying to back out of your commitment to it now.

The point is that at least some part of you thought Porkens was seriously rolefishing.

Due to it only being 25% serious, do you think it should be disregarded as a point against you?

Counterpoint: How does seeing Porkens as rolefishing equate to being scum?

I move that the bolded is a giant scumslip. If he thought I was scum, he wouldn't say that the point of my case is that "I seriously thought Porkens was rolefishing." If he thought I was scum, it would have been "I was trying to frame Porkens for rolefishing."

What do you mean you never claimed to vote Porkens for reactions? What is this then?

I voted Porkens BASED ON his reaction. I said it wasn't serious and wanted Plum's response.

I'm not voting you because you voted Porkens. I'm voting you because since you did it, you've been horribly inconsistant with your reasoning for voting him. I feel like every post it changes. On top of that there's this 75% not serious nonsense.

There's your problem. You don't seem to understand where I stood on Porkens. Show me inconsistency? I said I wasn't entirely truthful to say it wasn't serious, and that it was only 25% serious. It hasn't changed from that.

I voted Porkens weakly because I didn't like his reaction, I thought it looked like scum trying to confirm a double-voter. Maybe the best way to say it is that I had 25% confidence in the vote. But again, this won't be good enough for you and I'm pretty sure you're the only one who doesn't get it, so I'm not bringing it up with you again.

thanks. I don't see where I'm being unreasonable at all, seeing as how you have many more votes than just mine.

I don't think mykonian is scum, because his reason for voting Zilla was crap, and it would be dumb to vote your partner like that if you were scum.
You admit that mykonian's reason for voting Zilla was crap and yet you still come to the conclusion that he's likely not scum? Like seriously?

Yes. Call it the 'too dumb to be scum' fallacy or whatever, but it's just too sloppy and careless for a scumbag to make, I believe.

^ This defense is completely based on subjectivity, yet you call my case on VP "WIFOM." If this is legitimate, why discount my points on VP? This is unreasonable.

...and my vote is parked for the day.

Totally unreasonable, especially because it's based on the ridiculous slant that I'm trying to gain town points by claiming to be responsible for the death of RVS. If I played like you, all I'd have to say is "This all stems from WIFOM."

Specifically, the hate on you is the stupid left-field arguments where you assume totally wrong things and they serve as undying conviction, and no matter how many times you're wrong, you just go into the next game and do the same thing. It comes off as very conceited, and most times, it's harmful to your own alignment.

[Zilla]

@ All: Is not casting a random vote more or less suspect than casting a random vote without jokey reasoning provided?

Less, I often will hold back on casting a random vote myself if I feel the game can advance out of RVS quickly. I absolutely hate no reasoning provided with a vote in RVS, there's little potential for discussion based on that aside from "Why didn't you give a reason?"

I think I've just learned that I always work to end RVS ASAP.

I just meant that my subconscious seems to think you're cool for a reason I don't really know. Consider it a compliment, if you will.

Mostly, I wanted to know where you knew me from to get that opinion of me. I was surprised someone had me on a list of people to play with when I didn't know that person.

I wanted to see what Plum's reaction was to me saying my Porkens vote wasn't serious, but then a page went by with no plum and tons of people basically making my question lose impact.

Porkens then asked if I was a doublevoter. That was the reaction I was looking for, and that's why I voted him.

hmm, I guess I'll have to wait for the votecount to see if you're just being silly or not...

I see no asking it you're a doublevoter; I see him noting something he's interested in seeing the conclusion of. That is my problem; the thing you were pouncing on wasn't rolefishing. I don't care whether or not you intended your vote on him to lead to a lynch, because your basis for making that fairly serious accusation was nonexistent.

"Is that a REAL doublevote?" strikes me as worse than, "Are you claiming doublevoter?" The first has a bit of "oh shit" in it.

See the actual Porkens quote I put in above. It's arguably closer to the second phrase you listed, though it's not really either.

Wrong post. This is the post I was suspicious of Porkens for:

is that a REAL doublevote?

vote VP Baltar

for the 'we' in "we are all screwed.

The back-off in your quoted post bugged me as well, like he didn't want to press the matter any, but he didn't want to offer an opinion about how I didn't say anything about it.

Zilla, how do you define the term 'rolefishing'?

Pressuring for role-related information, i.e. "fishing" for role-info. Usually a scumtell from scum who want the information to better 1) control the town, 2) decide on nightkills, and 3) prepare for contingencies.

Gah, I am getting a stupid null-read on Charter.

Can you elaborate please? What is the cause of this null-read?

[Zilla]

And yes, ZazieR needs to post. Mykonian is due as well.

[Zilla]

If you think I'm backpedaling on my stance on Porkens, apply that same logic to KMD regarding Mykonian. He DID suspect Mykonian.

No. None of what you quoted

suggest Kmd suspecting myk,

you're just interpreting it your own (wrong) way.

Yes they do. They certainly suggest KMD suspecting Mykonian. You can believe KMD's justification, but that would mean you're not applying the same method you're applying to me, which is to discount anything the person says about it.

You haven't taken it as viable when I tell you that you're just interpreting my stance on Porkens in your own (wrong) way. Why does this work for KMD?

[Zilla]

Mykonian: did you see my explanation for why you don't see the same pattern in the games you looked at? What do you think of that? Are you still voting me for meta?

[Zilla]

On this page, VP steals Charter's responses, doesn't cite sources.

Plagarism!

[Zilla]

Your Porkens vote was related to you claiming double voter, so you have gotten a lot of flak over it. The reason I asked you this is that it seems like and awfully ill conceived plan if you are town. It seemed to me that you came under fire a bit harder than you had originally thought you were going to.

So what's the point?

And yes, I do need you to remind me again and again and again that you were the slayer of RVS with a 75% joke. I love that story.

This makes me angry. VP is picking at stupid things to try to implicate me as scum.

[quote="VP Baltar]

Second, I'm saying you don't really believe it, but you believe you can sell it, so you're going to try to push it. If you really believed it to be the case, it would be on terms of whether or not it is possible. You laid out that "It could be that you're being scummy, so I believe it." Why couldn't it be a town move?

Tell me more about what i believe and don't believe. It's great logic. Also, I think it is great when you paraphrase what people say to fit your point. Another solid move. [/quote]

I don't buy the sarcastic answer. It's my job to try to figure out what people are thinking, and I'm saying what I think VP is thinking. Also, VP's "point" about my paraphrasing is nothing without substance. Sarcasm does not make a good counter-argument. What's paraphrased incorrectly? Also note he doesn't accuse the paraphrasing of being wrong either.

But to answer your question, it indeed could be a scum move. I feel you were particularly ferverent about it, which seems more of a scum move than town.

That doesn't answer the question, and I still don't buy it.

What's scummy about FoS/voting 4 players? Even outside of RVS?

I'm pretty sure it's the timeframe in which you did it in. You could have been simply testing the waters to see what stuck. I'm of the belief that this is definitely what your Porkens vote was.

This is what we are talking about. I was "particularly fervent" about my Porkens vote? Show me how you came to this conclusion.

Furthermore, I asked "what was scummy about it" and VP responded with "I'm pretty sure it's the timeframe" and "you could have simply been testing the waters to see what stuck." These are NOT decisive answers. This is you showing how it's POSSIBLE to construe me as scum. VP was playing spin-doctor.

porkens and charter. I don't like porkens saying he likes the Zilla wagon, but I don't think he's scum for it. Again, I see newbie, not scum. Charter is just being super tunnel vision as usual, and is a null tell.

You also jumped on Kmd, mykonian and myself shortly after we started questioning you. It seems to me that as soon as anyone questions you, you are ready to FOS, vote them or call them possible scum and generally for very weak reasons. It's all a bit reactionary.

I disproved VP's point, but he's attacking me over it anyway.

Also, I suggest people read VP in isolation and notice how many things he drops. His scumhunting is insincere.

------------------------------------------------

I don't see the need for a person to ever declare the RVS over. I don't see why you kept saying it. I think it's a slight scum tell because you're pointing out to everyone that you are useful, which you shouldn't need to do.

You ignored the actual challenge. Either put up or shut up. Show me where I "keep saying it." Show me how I'm "pointing out to everyone that I am useful." I already answered for the one time you quoted me on.

Stuff like "you don't really believe it, but you believe you can sell it" coupled with the fact that your 'read' on Porkens doesn't say anything, and the only thing we're left with is he accused you of not reponding to a question (which you didn't) and you somehow spin it back on him.

You didn't actually elaborate on any of this, just defended against the non-attack of "somehow spinning it back on him". Disappointing. All you did was go to extreme lengths to defend yourself. I'm not going to continue with this because I'm not going to bother reading another essay.

There's nothing there calling for elaboration, how as I supposed to know you wanted any? Furthermore, it's not like you actually consider anything I say anyway. Why waste the time trying to convince you of anything?

That IS an inconsistancy. How can you ignore how you said it wasn't serious after being called out when it was serious when you cast it, and then you admitted to it being serious later. Don't even wave percentages at me, because that means nothing, this is a black and white matter.

Black and White? Do you understand statistics? Do you understand how big 25% is? Do you know how to round numbers? Is 25% closer to 0%, or 100%?

And where did I "admit it was serious"?

The only thing I assumed is it was serious when you cast it (which is both obvious and admitted since then).

Here is your HUGE problem. Show me where I said it was serious?

Pardon my french here, but don't fucking vote me because you can't understand my position, and don't like that I said 25%. I never said it was serious. It was still RVS when I cast the vote. It was still a "random" vote. I haven't changed my story, and EVEN IF I DID, there are FAR better cases for scum in this thread that you're ignoring because of your stupid tunnel vision.

And also, have you played in games with me where my tunnel vision was wrong? Not trying to be arrogant, but just curious. (because it is wrong sometimes)

A marathon game where you tunneled on me and I was town, plus Family Guy ought to be counted because you were scum and you were tunneling on a partner based on a ridiculous reason that was hardly supported in thread, so the only reason you were tunneling was because you knew beforehand that he was scum. So, it's more accurate to say I've never played a game where your tunneling was accurate.

[Zilla]

The part where it says "quote="Zilla"" up there is supposed to include this quote inside of Charter's quote box:

Show me in context, and tell me if you can't see why I bring it up, if and when I do.

[Zilla]

I'm torn on Zilla. She's putting a lot of effort into defending herself, which is good, but I'm getting really hung up on the 'voting for reactions' side of it. I guess I'm just numb to the 'role-fishing' argument. I mean, it was clearly not role-fishing, plain and simple.

You asked for confirmation on my role in a suspicious way. I call it rolefishing. Also, I didn't vote for reactions. For what I hope to be the last time, I voted based on your reaction.

[Zilla]

I'll lay it out entirely, and hopefully this is what Charter was talking about.

I faked being a doublevoter to try and get a reaction.

Porkens made a post that struck me as "A doublevoter? REALLY? Uh-Oh."

I didn't respond.

Porkens avoided confrontation and stepped down, saying "I guess we'll see in the votecounts." This bothered me too.

I voted Porkens for rolefishing.

KMD asked if I was serious.

Plum VOTED me because she disagreed with my vote. I found this scummy.

I told KMD it wasn't serious to guage Plum's reaction when she saw that my vote wasn't serious.

A page goes by with little commentary about what just happened and no plum. RVS is dead, not only by my hand but also Zazie, KMD, and Incognito.

I post the truth, that I was SLIGHTLY serious about voting Porkens, and that I told KMD that it wasn't serious at all to gauge Plum's reaction.

Turns out the plan wasn't very helpful all around.

Preview Edit: Charter, I'm fucking tired of your shit. AFTER THIS GAME, LEARN TO PLAY.

I've attacked Mykonian and VP aggressively, I haven't called you or Porkens scum, and where's my attack on Plum?

PUT UP OR SHUT THE

FUCK

UP.

[Zilla]

I'm not torn on Zilla at all, and I'm not responding to her bs anymore.

She keeps attacking EVERYONE that is/was voting her.

I've seen

zero scumhunting

, just these

ridiculous

defenses.

ZILLA,

YOUR VOTE WAS SERIOUS

. THEN YOU CHANGED YOUR STORY. END OF DISCUSSION.

That is why I'm lynching you. I'm not debating this any more.

Underlined the lies. You can say I "changed my story" if you want, because I did say I wasn't serious at all when there was a modicrum of seriousness in it.

Now prove how this makes me scum.

[Zilla]

Alternatively, just how "serious" was my vote?

Also, if this attack is valid on me, what makes my point on VP not being serious about suspecting me invalid? It's got just as much premise as your ludicrousness.

[Zilla]

I'd prefer if Charter were an active and productive member of town at least.

[Zilla]

It's suspect because you were initially trying to confirm with me that I had doublevoting powers, and instead of confronting me over my non-answer, you then resigned to watching the votecount. It was non-confrontational, but you still were attempting to get me to reveal my role. Hence rolefishing, hence suspicion.

I think you're totally town, and I'm wondering what the heck is up with ZazieR.

[Zilla]

You SAID that you were partially serious about voting Porkens. I never said Myko was scummy in any way.

You only get to say this on a technicality. You implied that you suspected Mykonian.

I think an important question is, Why don't you suspect Mykonian?

Another important question is, what exactly is your case on me?

[Zilla]

Stories are completely made up by scum. Theories are what townies believe to be true.

This still shouldn't have invalidated Mykonian's observations for him.

It makes me think of a scene like this.

"I would NEVER eat snails!"
"It's called escargot."
"Ooh! Let me try that!"

[Zilla]

You're not even going to look at other people today, even if your mind is already made up that I'm scum?

Now you're just being lazy AND a bad player.

[Zilla]

I didn't respond.

that is going to cause problems

Umm, are you even using your brain here?

I voted Porkens for rolefishing.

seems a bit of a weak case, don't you think?

Yes. It was a weak case.

KMD asked if I was serious.

you sounded serious

In what, in the way I said "vote porkens for rolefishing"? How does that sound any more serious than "vote KMD for meta-voting"?

Plum VOTED me because she disagreed with my vote. I found this scummy.

Weak cases can easily made by scum, and you pushed the one on Porkens quite seriously.

HA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Links or it didn't happen. READ THE THREAD.

I post the truth, that I was SLIGHTLY serious about voting Porkens, and that I told KMD that it wasn't serious at all to gauge Plum's reaction.

again, that is not a case I would be serious about.

Neither was I.

KMD, how are you confused, and WHERE DID I EVER SAY I WAS SERIOUS? And why are you "finding scumbuddies" of mine before I've even flipped? As for the case:

The case on you is your rolefishing vote,

Seriously? First off, even if it was serious, why does your view that I'm wrong mean that I must be scum? Second, why do you think it's serious?

the story change,

Easy case to make, but a bad premise. Hello, Charter.

blaming it on reactions (from Plum),

Lolwut?

calling the vote partially serious,

And this is scummy how?

and OMGUS attacking a few people.

Lolwut? I won't deny I OMGUS'd, but that was the point of being a target in the first place; I wanted to see where opportunistic scum are making their case.

That's most of it. I probably missed some things, but that's the major part of the case.

And you call that case enough to make me obvscum?

I think it's possible Incognito is buddying up to me in an attempt to look town, because yes, he's actually using his head, which apparently a few players aren't capable of here, but at least he's reading the thread and actively hunting scum, and even if his pro-town act is a charade, at least it looks pro-town, which is better than the scumbuckets Mykonian, VP, Llama, and KMD, and loads better than lazy tunneler Charter, and even better than lurker ZazieR and scant-poster Plum.

KMD, answer the same thing VP has to answer: Is Incognito scummy regardless of my alilgnment?

I'm personally not liking ZazieR much either. I didn't like the feel of her post against Mykonian, it felt a little forced. Similarly, VP's case on Mykonian seems mostly parroted from me/Incognito, I don't feel it's sincere.

[Zilla]

Honestly, Porkens won auto-town in my book and, barring other information, I wouldn't consider lynching him until LyLo, when all bets are off.

[Zilla]

You said you were "25% serious" and that you told me you weren't serious just for Plum's reaction.

It looks like we're getting somewhere, now can you tell me how much is in 100%? And can you tell me how much 25% is?

I saw a connection between you and Incog. If you are scum, I'll look at him next.

Fair enough.

Seriously? First off, even if it was serious, why does your view that I'm wrong mean that I must be scum? Second, why do you think it's serious?

You said it was serious, or at least partially.

At the very least, you can admit that you see I was only PARTIALLY serious.

It doesn't matter if you are "wrong". It's that you would consider his actions to be fishing when that's obviously not what he was doing.

this is scummy how?

Easy case to make, but a bad premise. Hello, Charter.

Read my posts. I've already shown this.

Read mine, I've alraedy answered it as well. As far as I'm concerned, it's the opposition's turn.

Lolwut?

You said you were looking for Plum's reaction.

Yet again, this is scummy how?

And this is scummy how?

Well, ignoring the fact that you are now denying the seriousness of it, it's scummy because it's very rare that a vote can have a gray area as far as how serious it is. Either you are jokevoting or your vote is serious.

Even you have to know how weak this is, which makes me wonder why you're still pushing it.

Lolwut? I won't deny I OMGUS'd, but that was the point of being a target in the first place; I wanted to see where opportunistic scum are making their case.

Looking for reactions isn't a reason to be scummy. Of course people will jump on you for being scummy. Doesn't make them all scum.

Come on, what are you doing here? This isn't even an accusation. Are you saying scum won't jump on easy prey? If you are, then we must agree to disagree. If you're saying I think everyone who jumped on my case is scum, you haven't been reading the thread and are reciting Charter/VP's mantra that I'm blindly OMGUS-ing everywhere.

And you call that case enough to make me obvscum?

Yes.

And you call Mykonian's case weak?

I think it's possible Incognito is buddying up to me in an attempt to look town, because yes, he's actually using his head, which apparently a few players aren't capable of here, but at least he's reading the thread and actively hunting scum, and even if his pro-town act is a charade, at least it looks pro-town, which is better than the scumbuckets Mykonian, VP, Llama, and KMD, and loads better than lazy tunneler Charter, and even better than lurker ZazieR and scant-poster Plum.

And you think Incog is scum who is buddying up or town who is playing well? Pick one.

Here we go again. I'm saying it's still possible for him to be scum. I personally believe he's town playing well.

KMD, answer the same thing VP has to answer: Is Incognito scummy regardless of my alilgnment?

I don't have a case on Incog. So I have to say no. He really isn't.

Then what's the point of pairing him with me?

[Zilla]

Llama, want to comment on something besides obvtown Porkens?

[Zilla]

Porkens, don't claim. Mafia doesn't need to know if you're one-shot or not.

FOS: LlamaFluff, ZazieR

for trying to get Porkens to claim; what good does that do from a town standpoint? Especially from Llama who says Porkens is likely town.

[Zilla]

I'm growing cool on Mykonian because in Drawn Together, as I was rereading after replacing, I would have lynched him too. He's not a very pro-town player, and he's absolutley horrible at defending himself. His reason for voting me is ridiculous and weak, and I don't see why he's still voting me on that and not looking at anyone else.

The thing about his case is that he's voting STRICTLY based on a meta that he doesn't understand, saying that apparently I'm scum because, as scum, I also said "I do this as town" (I don't know what "this" is in his case).

KMD has it right in that my meta is inconclusive. That's what I aim for. Mykonian evidently hasn't looked at my town games with context, which tells me he's either being extremely lazy or he thinks he can get away with his shoddy case.

I definately do not like Llama's position. He says he's "working on something." Where? I don't see it.

He also demands a fullclaim from porkens because mafia flipped a power role. What? This makes me equally suspicious. I understand part of his reasoning, but firstly, as my last post says, we don't need any of this information from Porkens, and I can only see his fullclaim helping scum. THAT is rolefishing. THAT is real, true rolefishing, not random-vote-accruing rolefishing.

I'm also not liking ZazieR, and I think I'm going to bring up her "I'm switching to Mykonian" post and show where she puts me at unease.

I don't like Incognito's justification that my calling out of Porkens' softclaim was "either town or ballsy scum." Personally, I was unnerved that nobody said anything about it, because if he went to the trouble to soft-claim in the first place, I would think scum would be the ones paranoid to say anything about it because they would want to pretend to be oblivious to the soft-claim so they can't be linked to his death later. This means that my post, in my mind, was a move more likely to be made by town anyway, and the ducking was in reference to Talhundir's (whatever that name is) tell about commenting on recent events.

So, Incog, your view into my mindset is wrong.

[Zilla]

Ah, I wandered away from my views on Mykonian before wrapping up.

Basically, I don't like how easy the swing was. Not that it was ESPECIALLY easy, but I don't like ZazieR and Llama's positions, for different reasons.

I don't think ZazieR's vote on Mykonian is serious, it looks faked. I don't like Llama saying he supports neither, on shaky ground. These two things, coupled with Mykonian's penchant for being horrible at defending himself, make me suspect that he might be town after all.

Mykonian, get your act together and either read my meta in the right context (namely, read a game that I didn't replace into, or read the last two days of Drawn Together when we weren't being led by power-roles, etc.) or find something else to attack with, because if you're town, I won't forgive you.

Now, ZazieR's post:

[Zilla]

... wrong person. It was plum I was thinking of. ZazieR, however, should have had enough time to judge if her suspect has been continuing to do what she thinks that person was doing, and should come out with whatever accusation she has or has had ready.

Now Plum...

Guess what time it is? Yes - reread and analysis post time.

Mykonian

Has gotten a lot of attention recently, and in any case even in my brief look-through yesterday gave me stuff to raise my eyebrows at. In fact, I'm going to go through the game (it's still short enough and not too dense) and note any unusual things about him, yeah? Also early cases made etc.

Myk, why didn't you place a random vote?

@ All: Is not casting a random vote more or less suspect than casting a random vote without jokey reasoning provided? Also, does anyone know if Myk has a history of avoiding voting in the random stage at all?

Actually, Myk, I've learned that not voting can be a pretty decent scumtell, and, all things considered, Zilla's Page 4 case and vote on you were not bunk. Reluctance to commit to a vote is a legit scumtell, and Zilla's extrapolated reasons for why scum-Myk would do that are reasonable.

I believe this point is fine and justified, though not enough to make a case.

Then you have no dispute with me and my argument is completely valid.

you think so? Random votes don't say a lot, and are "flushed away" by all the other votes.

You say I'm scared to vote.

I say a vote isn't much use now.

I can't be scared, as votes aren't very much checked in the RVS. They don't say a lot. But if they don't say a lot, why would you vote?

Please show me, how you think your argument could be valid...

I have seen scum reluctant to commit to votes when they had even very minor suspicions (or in the RVS . . . damn, I'm going to check your stupid meta myself. Happy now??? All right, I've seen you do the normal random vote stuff and the voting when things got modestly serious stuff.

Why did you not in this game???

).

Mykonian, you're claiming two things at once. You're saying you don't want to random vote, and that your vote is "worthless" now, and you alternate between the two, and neither make any sense.

The first makes no sense because it's only random voting if you're doing it for random reasons. If you have a serious reason, it's not a random vote. The second also makes no sense because it shouldn't matter who looks at your vote. It's paranoid scum who worry about how their vote looks.

or town that likes to see what the reaction of scum on a vote is. That won't help if they don't think it is serious

btw, it would be nice if I had a town game of you I could read. Would you have a link?

Addressing the bolded: Not justification. I make random votes and votes on minor points early in the game and I make serious votes too. I look for reactions on all and try to take advantage of all the votes I make in that way, but believe me, when I'm making a serious vote it's clear I'm making a serious vote. I don't need to do away with less serious votes to get that to happen. Regardless, in my brief glance at your meta I haven't seen you shying away from less-than-serious votes.

This is another point that I had already brought up.

This fails the "if everybody did this, would it help town?" test miserably.

Does it matter if a case is weak at this point in the game? A weak case is better than a joke case or no case at all.

SO TRUE.

These too.

I wasn't talking about you... but about charter.

see, I can have this little problem. That I post too much to make the town function. In that game, there was another one that did the same. I think charter enjoyed the show. I didn't like it, and it is not going to happen again.

I'm glad, but you're not helping the town function by not voting or attempting to formulate accusations and cases. By page five you've not done any of this.

SCREW IT; MYKONIAN BECAME MY CLEAR TOP SUSPECT BY POST 116

First you refuse to vote, don't put together much case, etc. as elaborated above. THEN you ask for some Zilla-town meta, then you make a vote based on your view of her town meta vs. her scum meta.

I have seen scum ask for meta (mith's meta!) only to take that and try to twist it into a case.

You're out of luck here, Myk. Wishy-washyness, reluctance to commit to a vote or case, and then

this

vote for this reason . . . my scumdar has made a decisive

bleeeep!

Vote: Mykonian

This is kinda the part that bugs me, in that she votes for Mykonian based entirely on reasons already put foreward by other players. This means she can shift any accountability to the people she followed onto the vote. If she's scum and knows Mykonian is town, this is a safe way to vote a townie.

While I agree with parts of Baltar's case (basically the ones arguing that Myk's reluctance to put a vote on his top suspect, however weak his case on Zilla was, is suspect) I don't see strong enough indication to link them much in my mind - and the fact that you're implying such strong connections before any players have flipped scum (or anything, for that matter) makes gut twitch, and his Post 118 was basically predicated on arguing for this connection.

FOS: VP Baltar

An FOS, also on already-stated analysis. There are no original points made here.

I don't see the appeal for VP Baltar's "Zilla being bussed by mykonian-scum" theory. The fact that he built a complete case against mykonian under the premonition that Zilla is scum is creepy. VP Baltar, do you see mykonian as scummy independent of his interactions of Zilla? Your case only seems to work under the assumption that Zilla is definitely scum here, and we haven't had an alignment flip yet sooo, yeah.

^^ See that.

I move that the bolded is a giant scumslip. If he thought I was scum, he wouldn't say that the point of my case is that "I seriously thought Porkens was rolefishing." If he thought I was scum, it would have been "I was trying to frame Porkens for rolefishing."

Hm. I note this well.

More parroting.

@ Plum

Serious? And what put me on this "list'?

You were my only lead, having done the only really out-of-place, potentially scummy thing to that point, so yes, you got a serious vote. What do you think, I write up unamusing, business-tone sentences backing my point on a vote because I have nothing better to do and no sense of humor to boot? Please . Also, I just meant that my subconscious seems to think you're cool for a reason I don't really know. Consider it a compliment, if you will.

I wanted to see what Plum's reaction was to me saying my Porkens vote wasn't serious, but then a page went by with no plum and tons of people basically making my question lose impact.

Yeah, I was out then. Probably I would have said that your first vote had an arguably decent reason behind it, but a sudden switch to voting someone for a not-serious reason wasn't good, and the fact that the vote looked very much like a serious vote on a baseless accusation was worse.

Answering questions, no scumhunting in this block.

Porkens then asked if I was a doublevoter. That was the reaction I was looking for, and that's why I voted him.

hmm, I guess I'll have to wait for the votecount to see if you're just being silly or not...

I see no asking it you're a doublevoter; I see him noting something he's interested in seeing the conclusion of. That is my problem; the thing you were pouncing on wasn't rolefishing. I don't care whether or not you intended your vote on him to lead to a lynch, because your basis for making that fairly serious accusation was nonexistent.

"Is that a REAL doublevote?" strikes me as worse than, "Are you claiming doublevoter?" The first has a bit of "oh shit" in it.

See the actual Porkens quote I put in above. It's arguably closer to the second phrase you listed, though it's not really either.

Now she addresses my reason for voting Porkens in a manner that is at least partly original thinking. It's a weak accusation, proven based on a faulty premise by my answer, but it's original at least.

3.

Plum

You can't have "lots-o-fun" unless you post more! You are ALSO on Zilla from post 0. hmm.
No read.

I've been busy: parading on Sunday, school play yesterday, etc. Rest assured that I'm having plenty of fun putting together this fairly long post, yar?

@Llama:

When he confirmed that Zilla was his top pick before I made it known who my top pick was, it made me more comfortable with him.

What about the fact that he hadn't voted all game - not even your mutual top pick for scum?

Also brought up before.

Zazie, show up soon .

It's always easy to comment on lurkers.

Zilla, how do you define the term 'rolefishing'?

I didn't see anything come of this.

Gah, I am getting a stupid null-read on Charter.

Also gah: Why am I still getting a strong scumvibe from Llama's Post 105, specifically the fact that he's arguing for the biggest wagon thus far but seems to have believed that the doublevoter fakeclaim looked serious and that Porkens attacked it?

This also strikes me as odd, especially in the way she phrases it. "Why am I still getting a strong scumvibe" dares the player to explain it away, rather than confirm it. I'd say it's a potential slip if Llama is scum.

Kmd: How do you see Mykonian and the case on him. Please, feel your freest to elaborate.

A good point made, but no follow up by Plum.

Charter:

No, I just find it too hard to believe he would make such an obviously poor vote if scum. He's in the same spot if you're town.

I don't like the too dumb to be scum argument .

Also an easy point to make, and I think Incognito was already on him about it.

FOS Plum

Oh hi, I've missed you, too

I was on the verge of making better on my FOS when I saw this, but events of tonight have made me rethink that a bit .

I have to admit that I don't know what she's talking about here.

So, that's what bugged me about Plum's post.

[Zilla]

Woah, I just reread Charter's part in the recently ended Monopoly Mafia, and that paints an entirely different picture of Charter. This tunnelvision is way more like his Family Guy tunneling. In Monopoly, he didn't have blinders on, and even people he said were obv-town (Gamma) ended up on his scum list at the end of the day.

Also important to note, he actually had a scum list, and he actually responded to most players.

In Family Guy, he latched on to Wolframnhart and never let go. Ever. And he said he would make no compromises on that vote.

In the marathon I played with him as town, he played aggressively, but not aboslutely single-minded.

Charter has gone up significantly in scum level.

[Zilla]

KMD: opinoins on VP?

KMD: Why can't there be intermediate levels of seriousness?

KMD: Where did your brain go this game?

Your case is based on me trying to get a reaction from plum. You're just as bad as charter if you think that makes me scum.

As far as "painting a townie as scum" where do you see me pushing a porkens case?

Wait. Why did you try to use meta as a defense if it's inconclusive?

Mykonian asked for it. You're the only one who wanted to attribute me using my meta as defense. The ONLY reason my meta is involved is because Mykonian asked for town games and voted on what he claims was based on my play in Merrim, where I played as scum how I would have played as town.

Also, I don't get his notion that I'm pushing "cases that don't make sense." Again, I wouldn't have played Merrim any differently as town, and my cases all make perfect sense to me.

Basically, KMD's case also seems to hinge on "town can't make gambits," since apparently trying to get reactions out of players is scummy.

KMD says my motivation for voting Porkens for rolefishing was to push a case on a townie, who was doing the right thing. If that was my motivation, why didn't I actually make a case? Why would I POSSIBLY EVER claim that it was a joke vote? That makes no sense.

KMD claims my motivation to lie about joke-voting was... what? To evade pressure? That also makes no sense. Look at the timeframe there. There was NO information I could have gleaned that would have made me change my mind about so-called "pushing" porkens. I still think his reaction was suspicious. If I was pushing Porkens at all, why would I flake just because someone asked if I was serious?

KMD claims my motivation for revealing that there was a modicum of seriousness in my vote was... THAT I HAD TO BE EITHER COMPLETELY SERIOUS OR COMPLETELY JOKING BECAUSE THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND. Apparently in KMD's black and white world, nobody can do something "kinda fishy." Either an action is totally town, or totally scum. Having any indecision means you are scum, because NOBODY has indecision.

KMD, I want you to go into any random game where the word "serious" is dropped, and see if the question "How serious were you?" is asked. I'm willing to bet around 70% of games where seriousness is discussed will include that question at some point. It's completely stupid to think that there is only 100% serious votes and 100% joking votes.

Now what other points are there in my case?

That apparently Mykonian is my scumbuddy because I didn't make the best case on him when I voted him, and that he took too long to vote me, and that I was calling him out on fence-sitting?

That apparently Incognito is also my scumbuddy because he wanted to stop the pointless back and forth between Charter's insatiable tunneling and my adamant defending?

That camn is apparently my scumbuddy because I

haven't made a case on her yet

haven't outlined a theory in which she may be scum?

You know what? I haven't outlined a theory on how Porkens can be scum either, as ZazieR and LlamaFluff have. Porkens must be my buddy too. "OH BUT YOU VOTED HIM FOR ROLEFISHING! THAT COUNTS!" Yeah, that was totally hardcore bussing, there's no way we could possibly be linked after I made such a rock-solid case on him.

That VP is my scumbuddy because he's not voting me?

==============================

Mykonian, what do you think of me now, and why change to VP over me?

[Zilla]

By this point, if KMD is still pushing the same case, he's not playing as town.

[Zilla]

Marker: I have just now created a post that I may post later. This will serve as a reference point to when I actually typed that post. I've decided it is best not to post it until I have more information, so pending KMD and Mykonian's response, I'll withhold posting it until they have responded to my last few posts.

[Zilla]

Catching up, but I'll be deploying the premade post now.

[Zilla]

Way to leave the option open in case you have to bus him though.

Okay, seriously, that had to be planned. It was a catch-22 setup designed to make me out as the bad girl no matter what I said. If he's obv-town, I'm "defending a scum partner." If I think he's scum, I'm "bussing a scum partner." If I'm a rational townie who trusts someone but still has nagging paranoia that they're being played like a fiddle, I'm "leaving the option open in case I have to bus him."

If you read my original post where I outline my stance, it's very obvious that I consider him town, but that it's still possible he's scum. KMD was deliberately baiting with his question on my stance on Incognito. I don't see how anyone could mistake my stance based on this:

I think it's possible Incognito is buddying up to me in an attempt to look town, because yes, he's actually using his head, which apparently a few players aren't capable of here, but at least he's reading the thread and actively hunting scum, and even if his pro-town act is a charade, at least it looks pro-town, which is better than the scumbuckets Mykonian, VP, Llama, and KMD, and loads better than lazy tunneler Charter, and even better than lurker ZazieR and scant-poster Plum.

By this point, I can't see KMD being town. He's made a shoddy case based on things that lack any semblance of scum motivation based on hollow, inaccurate "tells" (He's actually voting me in part for OMGUS? What is this, 2007? OMGUS is null; town are of course going to be critical of people who make cases on someone they have the benefit of knowing is pro-town.), he has ignored half of the players, he's strangely not playing obv-town (Incognito's play is what I would have expected from KMD), and he's turned a blind eye to Mykonian because "he doesn't see a case" on him, and instead of actually investigating and making his own decicsion, he asks for other people to lay out a better case for him (Huge scumtell; it avoids accountability in the event that Mykonian is town, it buddies to Mykonian if Mykonian is town, it defends Mykonian if Mykonian is scum, and it shows that he isn't interested in actual scumhunting).

Pending Mykonian's answer to my question in the last post,

Unvote: Mykonian
Vote: KMD

[Zilla]

mykonian, I don't get what you're asking in your last post to me. Clarify?

If I ask zilla for town games, I expect, if she is scum or town, that she comes with games that would show her playing just as she did here. The fact that she didn't give such a game is a bit weird, and shouldn't defend her, don't you think?

Mykonian.

Listen.

I've addressed this point MANY times, and you still seem to have ignored it.

You are looking in the wrong places in those games. You're looking at a time when we were following power-role mechanics (roleblockers causing no-nightkills, PO claiming innocents and guilties, etc.) I've already told you where to look in those games. Since the meta seems to be the entire premise of your case, it should be something you would check up on.

[Zilla]

Oh, I see. Well, I'm basically under the impression that she doesn't have such games on MS since she's only played games as town on here as a replacement and never starting from the very beginning of a game. Zilla, got any games where you might have used Spaghetti Strategy as town from another site maybe?

Bioshock mafia, already linked. The game died because I ended up breaking it.

Also interesting to note, this game where there were two teams of equal strength, and I turned a potential joke of Red vs Blue into a full blown case resulting in a lynch.

And finally, I have just realized the best way to explain my vote on Porkens. Family Guy Mafia, my vote on Puta.

With all that on the table, I'm going to go with
Vote: Puta puta
for

quick! let's insta-wagon!

and

must...join...wagon... Unvote Vote:Xtoxm


I'm guessing it's a level 2 WIFOM-attention whore move, and he's attempting to hide in plain sight.

This is the EXACT same kind of vote I put on Porkens. I truly believed his two quoted things were scummy (I've learned now the values of bandwagoning in RVS), probably more than I should have, and made a quasi-serious vote on him. I would have easily moved my vote if he hadn't gone on a lurkfest afterward.

I did this as town.

Interestingly, Puta was also town.

Also interestingly, Family Guy parallels this one in that I get run up a pole early day 1. Also Charter tunnels on someone way too hardcore (Family Guy, it was scumbuddy Wolframhart, who went through a ton of replacements). His lockjaw in this game is VERY similar to his scum game in Family Guy, and completeley dissimilar to his (recently finished) town game in Monopoly Mafia.

I'm actually surprised Llama and KMD haven't called him on it, especially KMD who did comment on Charter's strategy postgame in Family Guy:

LOL @ Charter tunneling on a "slip" he "caught" his scumbuddy on!!!

Yes, the logical extension is that Charter, if he were pulling the same gambit, would be tunneling on scum-partner Zilla, BUT I'm highly suspicious that KMD didn't mention this at all.

Both KMD and Llama were alive up to the end of Family Guy, whereas I died right in the very middle section of the game. This means they were exposed to Charter's tunneling even more.

[Zilla]

EBWOP:

With all that on the table, I'm going to go with
Vote: Puta puta
for

quick! let's insta-wagon!

and

must...join...wagon... Unvote Vote:Xtoxm

I'm guessing it's a level 2 WIFOM-attention whore move, and he's attempting to hide in plain sight.

This is the EXACT same kind of vote I put on Porkens. I truly believed his two quoted things were scummy (I've learned now the values of bandwagoning in RVS), probably more than I should have, and made a quasi-serious vote on him. I would have easily moved my vote if he hadn't gone on a lurkfest afterward.

I did this as town.

Interestingly, Puta was also town.

Also interestingly, Family Guy parallels this one in that I get run up a pole early day 1. Also Charter tunnels on someone way too hardcore (Family Guy, it was scumbuddy Wolframhart, who went through a ton of replacements). His lockjaw in this game is VERY similar to his scum game in Family Guy, and completeley dissimilar to his (recently finished) town game in Monopoly Mafia.

I'm actually surprised Llama and KMD haven't called him on it, especially KMD who did comment on Charter's strategy postgame in Family Guy:

LOL @ Charter tunneling on a "slip" he "caught" his scumbuddy on!!!

Yes, the logical extension is that Charter, if he were pulling the same gambit, would be tunneling on scum-partner Zilla, BUT I'm highly suspicious that KMD didn't mention this at all.

Both KMD and Llama were alive up to the end of Family Guy, whereas I died right in the very middle section of the game. This means they were exposed to Charter's tunneling even more.

[Zilla]

I also support lynching VP.

[Zilla]

Town-charter comes out of his tunnel and at least looks around. Scum-charter would be more aptly called... boring? (as in the kind with a bore, not the inuninteresting kind). I prefer "lockjaw" for this.

Town-charter, even when he is convinced someone is scum, will continue to hunt scum. Scum-charter sinks his vote and, again, doesn't even look anywhere else.

Town-charter is more responsive. Scum-charter has a vendetta and an attitude problem.

[Zilla]

A little elaboration for fun. Zilla supports the lynch of literally everyone but herself. (and maybe camn)

Put up or shut up.

I know you once made the point that I "have a scum theory" for everyone, I'm surprised you're going as far as to try to stretch it that I support anyone's lynch. Right now, I'll support KMD, VP, and Llama, and if none of those, Mykonian. I will NOT support Porkens-lynch unless Porkens basically comes in here and says "Hey guys, if you lynch me, I get to kill a scum player automatically." I don't support a Plum, Camn, or ZazieR lynch (no, I'm not sexist). I don't support an incognito lynch. I'd be reluctant on a Charter lynch because there's only one point to be made against him.

[Zilla]

Camn, what's your read of VP?

[Zilla]

I agree.

KMD is scum.

I'm not even going to quote-by-quote him anymore because as far as I'm concerned, I've won the debate between us, and he's become Charter II. Unfortunately, KMD doesn't have the same meta as Charter and can't use that as cover. Town KMD is a town player.

He hasn't even defended against my case, instead making paltry points against me. I think there's a name for that but it escapes me now.

If we do confirm KMD is scum, I'll be pretty sold on Mykonian being town.

I will still lynch VP if KMD isn't viable at deadline, but KMD is my top pick.

[Zilla]

Note: Not on speaking terms with KMD until he defeats my defense or at least starts actually scumhunting.

[Zilla]

VP, please writeup your opinion of KMD.

[Zilla]

VP, please writeup your opinion of KMD.

Ok, I will do a reread of him in iso tonight or tomorrow as well.

You're telling me you haven't even looked at him?

I'd like your current opinion, not a "I'm going to see what kind of hypo-case I can construct" opinion. If you're town, I see no reason why you would have entirely ignored the KMD case.

[Zilla]

The same thing bothers me with Camn saying she needs to reread VP and Llama.

[Zilla]

DAMN IT, wrong game!!!!!!!!

I should stop being on this site with two windows open and assume they are always on the game I want them to be on!

Sorry, please delete that.

[Zilla]

I'm drunk.. and I will look at VP..

Camn, what's your read of VP?

So, I just spent like, an hour, laying in bed thinking about VP Balthar!

I thought you said something about having to look at Llama, but that was VP (double suspicious points for VP then).

And it looks like you were drunk at the time, so that's your excuse.

[Zilla]

Btw, mod, you know the CCR song is called "Bad Moon Rising" and not Pale moon, right?

I'll scrap my ultimatum KMD (OOH! I'm changing my story; must be scum!) to make a good point:

KMD, state your case on me, again.

VP, I'd like your detailed reread now. Note that I'm very suspicious at how little you have thought of KMD.

[Zilla]

Porkens...........

Are you saying you'd bandwagon ANYBODY who is closest to lynch?

[Zilla]

why would town make up an unlikely story? why did VP baltar have to link me and zilla together? It makes no sense!

Maybe he honestly thinks that you and Zilla are both scum?

VP looks like his townie self.

The only thing that bothers me is that he is suspicious of both you and Myko, which is a convenient position for scum to be in.

You pretty clearly stated that you support the case against Zilla, you ended up voting for mykonian, and you said that you think the two of them are scum together. That pretty clearly seems to suggest that you supported their lynches equally. If you think two people are equally likely to be scum, what could

possibly

make you prefer one lynch over the other?

Major FoS: VP Baltar

This is a weak accusation/FoS.

The question you ask stands out. What could make you prefer one lynch over the other? That is obvious as hell. Players can be more sure about one than the other. Or can be basing one suspicion a connection. Or don't want to lynch someone they think is scummy because they are an uncountered claimed power role. Or one is scummier than the other. The fact that you would ask that question really stands out as scummy.

Incog, I looked back at what VP said when he switched:

While I support the Zilla case, I don't think it's necessary to finish the day so quickly. I would particularly like to look at mykonian, particularly the potential for him to be Zilla's scumbuddy.

He didn't want the day to end yet, so he switched to Myko.

VP, sorry if this was already asked, but would you still support a Zilla lynch?

You're right. He backtracked and used a terrible argument (obviously scum like to stay off of quicklynches to avoid suspicion).

Still, the question you asked doesn't fit though. Of course this partially depends on VP's response, so I'll wait on that to comment further.

And LOL at not interested in scumhunting. I'm pretty sold on you being scum, so I'm pushing that.

VP is next in line because of his vote being on Myko over you for pretty much BS reasons.

Less so, especially since she got out of her overly defensive mode and started doing more scumhunting.

Ok, I was going to say backing off of the Zilla suspicion would be scummy, but you have reasons for it and it's acceptable.

And now we have this:

Ok, without a reread, I would say that I find Kmd's tunnelling on you to be unlike what I have seen from him as town before. I would normally expect him to cast a wider net in his scum hunting. He also agreed with Incog a bit about me "backtracking", but never came after me too hard about it.

I haven't forgotten your backtracking.

I have expressed suspicion on Zilla, you, Llama, Incog, Camn, and Plum (although I'm not suspicious of Plum anymore now). Yes, Incog and Camn mostly depend on Zilla. Even then, I have 3 suspects. There are probably 3 or 4 scum in the game. I don't think I am wrong to suspect three players.

KMD's flip in position over VP is caused all because of Incognito's:

Yes, exactly. He still seemed to imply that they stood an equal chance of being scum. Given the content of that post you pulled up, what do you think of what he mentioned here:

You were making it out that I supported their lynches equally, which is not true. The point I was making about Zilla's wagon being the leading one at the time is this: why would I, as scum, not vote for Zilla's wagon that was gaining steam when it wouldn't have been suspicious at all to do so? Even though mykon was second wagon, wouldn't the obvious play there for scum have been to go after the wagon most likely to lynch in the shortest possible time?

Does this not reek of backtracking? Why is my major FoS weak and unwarranted?

KMD is being forced to bus scumbuddy VP. I'll lynch either of them.

[Zilla]

Oh, I forgot to mention: Bolded are KMD's defenses of VP, blues contradict each other (DIRECTLY), and underlines contradict each other.

[Zilla]

Oh, and I didn't even mention: KMD didn't change his case on me, even though he didn't refute my points that I wouldn't behave as I did as scum because I ruined all my chances to accomplish anything that he claims I was trying to accomplish.

-Voted Porkens for a crap reason

KMD never contested how this was scummy; I showed that there was clearly no scum intent in this because I didn't push any case on Porkens, and if I ever had that intention, I wouldn't have flaked just because someone asked if I was serious.

-Lied about the vote being serious by plainly stating it wasn't.

KMD again didn't answer how this was true; continually holds onto the belief that there are only two states: 100% serious and 100% joking. It's preposterousness, and I even linked to another vote in Family Guy that was the exact same thing as my vote here: my vote on Puta Puta for bandwagoning.

-Later admitted 25% truth to it, but still only partially serious

KMD never answers how this is scummy.

-Claimed to have never said the vote was serious

Show me where I said it was, WITHOUT using your slant that 25% = 100%.

-changed your story

Doubling up points to try to spin the case.

-backpedaled when caught

Tripling up points to spin the case again.

-acted scummy "for reactions"

I did roughly the same thing Incognito did when he voted for no reason, yet KMD said he had absolutely no case on Incognito aside from him being my scumbuddy, meaning this isn't any reason why he voted me; just something he feels he can tack on. This is also his point that "town can't make gambits."

Also, I specifically said who I was looking for reactions from, and what I specifically did to incur those reactions. Here, he tries embellishing it as if I was being obvscum to try to get reactions out of everyone.

-OMGUS

I provided reasoning that OMGUS is town, which is uncontested (just a "it's sad you think OMGUS is town.) Further, I have not been blindly OMGUSing. FURTHERMORE, using KMD's logic, aggressive scum are untouchable because in order to win, they just have to be the first person to vote or voice suspicion on someone because obviously anyone who examines them and finds them scummy is just OMGUS voting.


KMD's case contains things that aren't just misleading, they're entirely skewed.

[Zilla]

Porkens: How do you feel about KMD?

[Zilla]

VP: Do you still want a Mykonian lynch?

[Zilla]

Llama accuses VP of ignoring his case, VP takes a look at it and votes Llama.

This kinda proves he was ignoring Llama's case, else he would have voted Llama already.

Mykonian is being lazy, but I don't think he's scum for it. Mykonian, it's because you are posting, but you're not doing anything. You're making passive comments and not hunting at all.

VP is still scummy. For one, he hasn't posted his promised KMD analysis, instead commenting on his meta. For another, he was very eager to vote Llama for the case AFTER Llama said he had been ignoring it.

He has been making good points on KMD though, especially in regards to tunneling.

ZazieR, where are you?

Porkens, still waiting on your opinion of KMD.

VP: Why Llama over KMD?

[Zilla]

You haven't pushed a case anywhere else, you only looked at VP after both Incog and I told you to, you haven't looked at ANYONE unless prompted, you're holding on to a well-thrashed case and claiming "I haven't convinced you yet," depsite having defeated all your points, you haven't moved your vote since your third post.

[Zilla]

Before you bring up Llama, I must say I was the first one to say he hasn't been playing to his meta.

[Zilla]

KMD: opinoins on VP?

VP looks like his townie self. The only thing that bothers me is that he is suspicious of both you and Myko, which is a convenient position for scum to be in.

You pretty clearly stated that you support the case against Zilla, you ended up voting for mykonian, and you said that you think the two of them are scum together. That pretty clearly seems to suggest that you supported their lynches equally. If you think two people are equally likely to be scum, what could

possibly

make you prefer one lynch over the other?

Major FoS: VP Baltar

This is a weak accusation/FoS. The question you ask stands out. What could make you prefer one lynch over the other? That is obvious as hell. Players can be more sure about one than the other. Or can be basing one suspicion a connection. Or don't want to lynch someone they think is scummy because they are an uncountered claimed power role. Or one is scummier than the other. The fact that you would ask that question really stands out as scummy.

Notice this one is a defense of VP.

Incog, I looked back at what VP said when he switched:

While I support the Zilla case, I don't think it's necessary to finish the day so quickly. I would particularly like to look at mykonian, particularly the potential for him to be Zilla's scumbuddy.

He didn't want the day to end yet, so he switched to Myko.

VP, sorry if this was already asked, but would you still support a Zilla lynch?

I just realized this is just going to be a copy of the post I already made.

It's total BS that you looked at VP yourself. You only looked at him because Incognito challenged you to back up your claim that his

FOS

was unwarranted.

[Zilla]

Nobody told me to look at VP. Incog made a valid point. I agreed with it and can see him as scum.

Llama looks scummy, so I am suspicious of him and considering voting him.

My vote hasn't moved because you are still my top suspect.

Even assuming all those are valid, that leaves:

You haven't pushed a case anywhere else

, you only looked at VP after both Incog and I told you to,

you haven't looked at ANYONE unless prompted, you're holding on to a well-thrashed case and claiming "I haven't convinced you yet," depsite having defeated all your points, you haven't moved your vote since your third post.

And I believe I've very solidly proven that you hadn't even looked at VP until my question (anyone still in doubt, go to KMD's iso and ctrl+f "VP" and you'll see he never even looked at him until I asked.)

You also totally backtracked on your suspicion on Incognito. There's a few posts before I asked you about VP where you were laying into Incognito pretty heavily for his "weak" cases (which you even said "why would you bring this up unless you are scum?") and his defense of me.

I hate to be charter, but why aren't we lynching KMD?

[Zilla]

It also bothers me that VP votes Llama for his case, but doesn't even look at KMD's "case" on him.

The way those two ignore each other until called on is just blatant.

[Zilla]

KMD is top, VP is basically hugging his backside, and Llama isn't on my list anymore. I'd rather lynch Charter than Llama at this point.

[Zilla]

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting to post this:

Incognito doesn't take it far enough; he says VP "supported the lynches equally." VP claims he was backing a Mykonian lynch. It was neither; he clearly supported my lynch the most, but claimed he didn't want to vote it because he "didn't want to end the day." Then he backed down from that, and now claims that he was always more interested in Mykonian.

Nevermind that his only reason for suspecting Mykonian in the first place was conditionally that he could be my scumbuddy.

[Zilla]

unvote: KMD
Vote: VP Baltar

KMD and VP are scum, I don't buy his claim, etc.

[Zilla]

Actually, assuming three scum, it's game, set, and match.

I'm "doc". KMD is totally scum with VP.

I actually wasn't given a role name, but it would fit to call it "guardian." It talks about me using protective wards. Unfortunately, I'm only one-shot.

I figure Llama's clear for his flavor-fishing, just because he put it out as a way to test Porkens. It was an anti-town move, but it did show that he knew that flavor was special for this game. It's possible that he figured that out because he's on a scumteam with flavorful roles, but I find it more likely he got that from his own role.

[Zilla]

^ And a cryptic post to boot.

[Zilla]

I'll wait for 5 mintues before making my next point...

[Zilla]

And that point is:

Town VP would have OMGUS voted me for being "obvscum" for counterclaiming his claim that he would know and trust 100%.

[Zilla]

I waited 5 minutes to see if that post was forthcoming.

[Zilla]

I'd prefer KMD, but Llama is an acceptable alternative.

Nothing has changed for my case on KMD. Llama's case on VP was aptly-timed, and quite suspicious. I'm actually kind of glad that of the two townies to die, they were plum and zazier, because I had suspicions about them.

Being wrong about VP has shaken my town read on Incognito a bit, and also that he wasn't targetted at night. I also haven't liked Camn's posts lately.

Still, KMD is my prime suspect, and if Charter refuses to look anywhere else, he's my number 2.

[Zilla]

Vote: KMD

I'm voting from the bottom of page 21. Not only are my suspicions of KMD still on high-alert, but this entire post seems to have been built from the standpoint of recovering from VP's flip.

I have yet to read 22 and 23, but I still think Llama is town.

[Zilla]

You only had to claim in the Mini because you were voteless.

The large, you mostly played a good game.

Here, you took a back seat and waited for something to happen. That is something I have NEVER seen you do.

also not as scum.

I don't like this.

Also, from where I am, KMD is getting a lot better.

unvote: KMD

[Zilla]

Ugh.

Vote: Incognito

Sorry to turn on someone who essentially helped me carry my banner all day yesterday, but I don't like him saying I shouldn't have claimed. It seems to me, if he was town and expected the lynch to catch scum-VP, he would have been fine with a doc claiming to catch scum. As scum, he would know it's two town players against each other.

Other things of note: I don't like Camn's angle on KMD. I didn't like Camn's participation yesterday. She's bothering me a lot.

Llama breadcrumbing as inventor doesn't clear him, and I noted that his knowledge of "screwy power role flavor" doesn't mean he's town. The nice thing here is that if Llama is scum, Myk's chances of being scum are pretty high. The problem is that if Myk is scum, it says nothing about Llama because he could have had a false read.

I'm no longer giving Mykonian the benefit of the doubt; I switched off of him just because I didn't like the way the wagon was building, and that shouldn't make him auto-town. He's back to neutral for me.

To answer Charter, read my defense posts with an open mind. I didn't change my story.

Also, Charter better damn well scumhunt today. His recanting of his day 1 position is still a viable scum move since staying on my case at this point is completely ludicrous. I don't see how he's playing to his town meta, because his monopoly behavior was totally different from his behavior this game.

Charter scum makes KMD scum very likely.

all in all, I'm dissatisfied with Camn, but not enough to vote her.

[Zilla]

Porkens: you're able to actually play the game, you know. You're not just a day-vig, you're also a player who can scumhunt.

[Zilla]

As cold as it is, I don't care that outside factors may have caused lackluster performance. If you're scum, it's an excuse.

[Zilla]

So says you when we had people unvoting...

Though actually, I'll go back and look at those unvoters... that's kind of interesting in itself.

[Zilla]

Porkens: As the game's other claimant so far, do you wish to comment on VP Baltar's claim here?

Nice rolefishing

unvote, Vote: Zazie-darling

How is that rolefishing?

Unvote
Vote: VP Baltar

Die, SCUM.

This comes AFTER my counterclaim. If you "knew" VP was lying, why weren't you voting him?

[Zilla]

People who unvoted: Plum (confrimed town), Porkens (likely town), KMD (???).

People who remained: LlamaFluff, Mykonian.

[Zilla]

I don't see what Porkens has anything to do with anything. Would you mind laying that out?

[Zilla]

RE: KMD's "how am I better?"

Page 22 reads like normal KMD, the pro-town regardless of alignment KMD I know.

[Zilla]

On that note, I don't like KMD's distancing from Charter in the last post. Way to straddle that fence!

[Zilla]

... you know, I've reread KMD's moves day 1, and I've reread my case on him, and most of those points are still valid. I don't like Camn's case over how she thinks KMD should have reacted to VP's play, but that doesn't invalidate my own case.

vote: KMD

Nobody told me to look at VP. Incog made a valid point. I agreed with it and can see him as scum.

Llama looks scummy, so I am suspicious of him and considering voting him.

My vote hasn't moved because you are still my top suspect.

Even assuming all those are valid, that leaves:

You haven't pushed a case anywhere else

, you only looked at VP after both Incog and I told you to,

you haven't looked at ANYONE unless prompted, you're holding on to a well-thrashed case and claiming "I haven't convinced you yet," depsite having defeated all your points, you haven't moved your vote since your third post.

And I believe I've very solidly proven that you hadn't even looked at VP until my question (anyone still in doubt, go to KMD's iso and ctrl+f "VP" and you'll see he never even looked at him until I asked.)

You also totally backtracked on your suspicion on Incognito. There's a few posts before I asked you about VP where you were laying into Incognito pretty heavily for his "weak" cases (which you even said "why would you bring this up unless you are scum?") and his defense of me.

I hate to be charter, but why aren't we lynching KMD?

^ this is still valid.

[Zilla]

It hinges on KMD being observant enough to know what was going on, and that's a hard case to make against anybody. His defense is very reasonable.

On a future note, don't fake counter-claimable power roles, especially when the person who has your role thinks you're 90% scum.

[Zilla]

I disagree with roleclaiming. I would like to hear from Mykonian what Llama's effect was though.

KMD did not defend, he just tried to skew/slant the case against him. The fact remains that he did no scumhunting yesterday except tunneling on me. All his VP hate was copied from myself and Incog. He irrationally defended charter and mykonian. Even his Llama problems were already precedented by my comments on how Llama isn't playing as usual.

And Mykonian, it is pretty obvious that Llama is playing differently here. While it's also true I haven't seen him as scum before, I'm not ready to say he's scum. It is interesting how tightly you two are sticking together though.

[Zilla]

FOS: LlamaFluff

I read him in isolation; he was one of the most shaken up by porkens killing afatchic, and he recanted his position on me ON A DIME with no reasoning.

Actually, based on this,

unvote: KMD
vote: Llamafluff

[Zilla]

Add to this the slght rolefishing tone he took towards porkens, the weak cases, the odd meta, the "gut feeling that myk is town" that is extraordinarily strong, especially with Llama who doesn't trust his gut.

[Zilla]

This doesn't let KMD off the hook either.

[Zilla]

First: Incognito, you appeared pretty pro-town yesterday, and when I'm scum, I usually target people who have little chance of being lynched. Our death was someone who stood more chance of being lynched than you, which I found odd, to say the least.

KMD: You did not tunnel on anyone but me, any assertion to the contrary is lies. You made offhand comments on other players that imped other people's comments that were already made, and most importantly (and you did not contest this), you did

no

scumhunting.

Secondly, your defenses of players is irrational because it is not supported in thread. It's similar to Llama's "gut read" of town on Mykonian. You didn't outline logic for why you considered him to be town, and I don't believe your reasons for defending Charter because, from my experience, his actions did not match his town meta, but they did match his method as scum in family guy.

Mykonian: Why are you withholding information regarding Llama's "invention"?

unvote: LlamaFluff
Vote: Mykonian

If Llama is telling the truth, Mykonian can still be scum. If Llama is lying, Mykonian can still be scum. I think the odds of Mykonian being scum are higher than Llama's.

[Zilla]

Charter needs to post.

[Zilla]

Camn, what is your opinion about massclaiming and Llama's claim?

[Zilla]

Well, now we need to know.

Myko....What does being Targeted by Llama have to do with your opinion on Porkens?

Exactly what I was wondering, and if I had another vote, it'd be on Mykonian right now.

[Zilla]

KMD: Mykonian refuses to say anything regarding Llama's "gift."

[Zilla]

I don't believe it.

[Zilla]

I don't believe Llama gave Mykonian doctor protection. Mykonian's reasoning is horrible as to why he didn't claim what it did.

I don't really care for Charter's oversimplified post, but I find Llama's reaction even more disturbing.

[Zilla]

No massclaim either.

At this point, my list is very short on the people I trust, and Llama is almost dead last.

[Zilla]

I also just realized: there was no real pro-town reason for Llama claiming when he did. I can see why scum would want to do that, as some consider unsolicited claims more believable and the gambit would work better if he "spontaneously" claimed, but there really was no reason to bring any of that up.

[Zilla]

Charter needs to post again.

I think we also need to revisit: why was KMD blocked when there was a claimed doctor already out?

Also Mykonian said that if we lynch him, Porkens will die; I didn't use my doc ability last night and never said I did; why would he assume that I did?

[Zilla]

Llama looks more and more tempting as a lynch...

[Zilla]

Porkens, why the unvote?

[Zilla]

I don't see why scum would even want to kill Porkens; statistically he has a better shot of helping them out than hurting them.

I still feel strongly about a Mykonian lynch.

[Zilla]

I just realized: I really don't like KMD's position regarding Mykonian. He seems to think he's obvtown, but the way KMD is playing, you wouldn't know it.

And now that I look at him, he's still not scumhunting.

unvote: Mykonian
Vote: KMD

[Zilla]

Yeah, I just looked through KMD in isolation. Yes, he offers comments, but there's no actual scumhunting being done there. Even when I called him out on it, and then called out his lack of response, his answer was

No scumhunting? Really? My opinions were clear on almost every player. Can you say the same for Charter? Not really.

Which dodges the actual accusation. I didn't say KMD didn't voice his opinions, I said he did no scumhunting. And then he tries deflecting it to Charter.

This time, my vote's not shaking so easily.

[Zilla]

Peanut gallery commenting =/= scumhunting.

You're doing no original research. You're just trying to channel discussion as you see fit. You've made no attempt to actually gather new information, instead you've been putting filters on the information that has been presented.

[Zilla]

Wouldnt be moving a wagon onto VP from myk be more of a scumtell if myk is scum? If myk is town that part of the case gets much weaker quickly. Also I count four back in fourth posts with me and VP in three days, it may be slightly less activity then thread average, but I wasnt lurking in an attempt to get him lynched like you seem to be suggesting.

WIFOM of the worst type. I don't see how Mykonian being town makes it any less of a scumtell. Good scum can play it to the hilt.

[Zilla]

Not liking Camn these last few posts...

[Zilla]

because she attacks you? poor child...

unvote: KMD
Vote: Mykonian

This statement needs HEAVY explanation. Firstly, what makes you think Camn was attacking me, and secondly, why did you make this statement?

[Zilla]

Also, what's the point of your asking me for my opinion on Incognito and Camn?

[Zilla]

To be honest, I'm considering the possibility that Camn and Mykonian are tied together, by Mykonian's behavior on this page, plus how they are both speculating on setup.

Mykonian wants me to comment on Camn and Incognito because they were the least talked about?

No.

If that's the case, I don't see why Mykonian wouldn't say anything himself, and why he would ask for my opinion on the matter. Scum-Mykonian might be unsure of how to deal with the situation around those two, and is fishing to see if he can back a case, diffuse his own wagon, or gauge if he needs to defend/distance from them.

[Zilla]

how about we just lynch mykonian and call it a day?

I'm a little leery of this post too.

[Zilla]

Llama: why?

[Zilla]

I continue: why?

[Zilla]

FOS: Llama, KMD, Camn

I was blocked. Why the intense interest? I didn't even schedule my power for use.

Vote: KMD

Seems to me he knew about roleblocking providing flavor and he claimed yesterday to set this whole thing up, now Llama comes in and asks if I'm being blocked to complete the setup that "clears" KMD.

[Zilla]

I'd love to vote Charter, if I could share a vote. Horrible play all game.

[Zilla]

And here Llama makes the play I assumed he would.

[Zilla]

Screw it, Llama OBVIOUSLY knew I was blocked.

unvote: KMD
Vote: Llamafluff

I still suspect KMD played his role in this with his claim yesterday. I do believe scum didn't block anyone night one, because if they would have, their obvious target would have been me. KMD's claim to being roleblocked and his reluctance to admit anything else but that roleblock is entirely suspect. Llama pushing on me so hard for confirmation that I had been roleblocked looks exactly like this was all just a setup to "clear" KMD, especially since he went STRAIGHT for me, and STRAIGHT to asking if I was roleblocked.

I don't know how he faked the Mykonian thing, but I won't rule out the possibility that his role is "meant" to target scum, but he used it on Mykonian to clear himself. Llama, who did you target last night?

Massclaim would probably be good now too.

[Zilla]

That makes no sense, Llama. Why would you target Porkens with the invention, of all people? This exact situation was pretty likely to happen, and, regardless of who you targetted, the roleblock and kill would have gone through. Your decision would not have changed the outcome of me being roleblocked, Porkens dying, and KMD being "confirmed." Therefore:

I figured doctor would be blocked and that would show its a scum RB, or Porkens would be alive. Either way it would mean you were town or Porkens had my invention.

You're creating a false dilemma, and one that apparently hinges on me protecting Porkens as well as Porkens being nightkilled and me being roleblocked.

The bad logic that your selection of who to give the invention to had some impact on whether KMD would be cleared is highly suspect.

[Zilla]

Furthermore, the thing about me being roleblocked says that mafia NEEDED Porkens to die tonight. I can only assume that's because mafia was pulling some kind of gambit that hinged on it, and here Llama is being the arbiter of that gambit.

The only other reason I could see them wanting the dayvig dead is that he looked like he was getting ready to kill one of their own, BUT this is also WIFOMable in that mafia may want us to think that and suspect someone who is innocent because of it.

[Zilla]

None of that explains why you made a beeline for me on being blocked.

[Zilla]

And nice deflection.

[Zilla]

I don't buy KMD being cleared either. Being targetted night 1 is fishy; claiming day 2 to be blocked unprovoked is also fishy; beelining for my confirmation on being blocked night 2 is fishy; giving an invention to someone you think is going to die is fishy; roleblocking me to kill a dayvig that has a pretty good chance of helping scum eliminate town is fishy.

[Zilla]

Actually this is exactly what I assumed, the only high probability way that Porkens died was zilla getting blocked. It was worth it for me to essentially risk burning an invention to get someone cleared. There was a possibility that kmd got blocked, I got blocked, zilla died, etc, etc. Overall, I still feel I made the correct choice. It was me risking losing an invention to a player dying to clear a player.

Vote: LlamaFluff

This is rediculous. Your giving an invention to Porkens had NOTHING to do with KMD being cleared.

Vote: Llamafluff

[Zilla]

I wasnt trying to get zilla or kmd lynched off the push for a claim unless Zilla was going to say a block had no flavor attached to it. I was trying to see if I could clear kmd.

Vote: Llamafluff

You

didn't "clear" KMD with anything unless you were the one who roleblocked me (this is what I suspect).

Vote: Llamafluff

[Zilla]

How is it a wasted invention? It CONFIRMS TOWN. If kmd was blocked by a town RBer, then zilla was going to be killed instead of porkens. I have a hard time trusting flavor 100%, as a mod I like to ding people who follow flavor and site meta too closely. It was worth it to burn my invention in order to clear a player.

Vote: Llamafluff

This is ridiculous. Giving Porkens an invention has NOTHING TO DO WITH CLEARING KMD.

Vote: Llamafluff

[Zilla]

See my arguement about not buying into flavor blind, etc etc. I basically solved the question of what alignment the RBer is though. You are going on about the inconsistancy though, but I think what I did here irons it out quite a bit.

Vote: LlamaFluff

YOU

didn't solve ANYTHING. You asked if I was roleblocked. That doesn't give you ANY credit. Furthermore, I didn't specifically say there was flavor with my roleblock or confirm anything.

Vote: Llamafluff

[Zilla]

Again, RB scum = porkens dead, kmd clear. RB town = zilla dead, porkens with invention. I still think I made the right move here.

Vote: LlamaFluff

This is an extremely dense false dilemma. There were FAR more than those two outcomes from tonight. What if the roleblocker actually hit scum? What if, god forbid, scum didn't target me, like they didn't night 1? What if just about ANYTHING happened differently?

Furthermore, you say you "made the right choice" when obviously, you didn't because if you gave me an invention, we'd have a "confirmed" KMD and a Zilla with an invention.

Vote: Llamafluff

[Zilla]

....

I wish I had a Vote: Camn

My god, can you paint a target on yourself any harder?

In fact, she's almost cleared my suspicion on KMD just because of how she imped my case and then called both KMD and I scum over it.

[Zilla]

I wish it wasn't near LyLo so I could vote: Charter

Claim and post. Furthermore, don't no-lynch when all that's going to happen is I'm going to die overnight and we'll be down one town vote.

[Zilla]

Vote: Charter

[Zilla]

I caught him in a lie that I'd rather not reveal all the specifics of. All I know is that he's definitely lying about his role.

[Zilla]

No.

I promise Charter is scum.

[Zilla]

I realize that skepticism is healthy in this game, but I also realize that the most optimal thing to have happen today is to lynch Charter without me divulging the specifics until tomorrow. We'll be a LOT better off that way.

[Zilla]

What are you confused about? You shouldn't have any idea how his claim convinced me he's 100% scum, that's the point. I know it's a horrible situation, but this is something that is best handled if you trust me on it. I know it's an uneasy thing to extend trust in this game, but it's the best way town has to win, by far. Everything will be cleared up tomorrow.

[Zilla]

Zilla, you've undoubtedly been rocking in this game.

Basis for this? I counterclaimed and got a vanilla townie lynched and pushed heavily for the lynch of another vanilla townie. What makes me appear to have been "rocking in this game"?

[Zilla]

Incog: Why the "I won't be voting just yet?"

[Zilla]

i.e. what are you waiting for?

[Zilla]

^ not rhetorical.

Also, if my post count is near 200, it's because I end up doing this a lot... >_>

[Zilla]

... Isn't that supposed to be rhetorical like this one?

[Zilla]

KMD, I'm aware of the risks of revealing this, but can your JOAT protect?

[Zilla]

KMD, if you have the power to protect, I can clear two townies tonight and make the game unwinnable for scum.

[Zilla]

If charter comes up roleblocker though, whether KMD can protect or not is moot.

[Zilla]

Wait disregard that.

KMD you need to have protect powers...

[Zilla]

And KMD.. if I was partners with a scum-charter.. I would have bussed him RELENTLESSLY from the get go!!!

Useless WIFOM...

[Zilla]

KMD: I need to live through tonight. Llama, you BETTER target me with your ability.

If I die, KMD is scum. If I live and Llama doesn't give me a present, Llama is scum.

[Zilla]

If I live and get a present, that narrows it down to Incog and Camn.

[Zilla]

Well, actually no it doesn't. KMD scum could just not kill me.

[Zilla]

^ You seem pretty confident that Llama is telling the truth about his gifts...

[Zilla]

Incog and camn claimed vanilla, right?

[Zilla]

Camn claimed "dumb peasant."

WHERE DID INCOG CLAIM?

[Zilla]

Llama: I'm glad you brought it up and KMD not bringing it up is a little suspect; perhaps forgetting to mention it here would let scum KMD kill me and then say "I was roleblocked!"

However, it's covered. I've already cleared with the mod that I can target myself.

[Zilla]

That means, KMD has committed to protecting me, and there are two sources for my protection. THERE IS NO REASON I SHOULD DIE TONIGHT. If I do, KMD is scum.

[Zilla]

found it, he just said "I claim vanilla." No peasant or anything.

[Zilla]

I don't follow your logic, KMD. If they block one of us, it won't matter either way.

And like I said, I'm clearing everything up tomorrow, I'll say why I knew Charter was scum.

[Zilla]

But I'd love to hear Camn's speculation.

[Zilla]

^ You seem pretty confident that Llama is telling the truth about his gifts...

Myko got one and flipped town. Do you think a confirmed town player lied about it?

I think Mykonian told us what he thought was the truth. I'm still wary of the role in itself, alternative explanations, etc.

[Zilla]

I'm thinking he didn't really get a one-shot doc but a placebo, or perhaps Llama could be scum who can give out inventions, and he targeted town to gain town "clearance." (in which case, at the very least I'm stealing one of their inventions tonight).

Either way, I'm testing his claim, especially since last night he apparently gave it to a dead man.

[Zilla]

Nothing has happened to rule out a placebo. Even if that's not the case, that's a wonderful scum role idea that I will have to steal for one of my games.

[Zilla]

literally, it means fake medication used as a control in a medical study to negate "the placebo effect," where patients will experience symptoms of the medication just because they believe they took the medication.

In this case, I'm saying Myko received a fake one-shot doc. Or, basically, he received nothing that looked like a one-shot doc.

[Zilla]

As far as I'm concerned, Llama hasn't done anything protown aside from having Mykonian vouch for him. He pushed Charter at a time when nobody was interested in him (distancing/bussing which matches his scum meta), he heavily buddied with Mykonian on "gut feeling," he claims to have thrown away his invention at Porkens based on a false dilemma that either Porkens or I had to die and that he apparently wanted to clear KMD, instead of both clearing KMD and having a townie with an invention.

Then there's the whole not playing like normal day 1.

Overall, I haven't liked his moves, and the only thing that says he's town is that Mykonian had a power that Llama gave him. When there's lots of evidence in one direction and only one piece in the opposite, I'm going to question that one piece of evidence.

[Zilla]

Also, rush-lynch Charter failed at stopping discussion. *Nelson Muntz* HAH hah!

[Zilla]

If Charter does come up roleblocker, I'll be protecting someone else; meaning again, if I die, it's KMD's fault.

[Zilla]

.... There's nowhere in my role PM that says I'm a jailer, and it said I used protective wards. Someone else said "Guardian" was the werewolf equivalent of doc, so I figured that was what I was. Plus, my ability didn't say anything about preventing my TARGET from doing anything, as per usual jailer role, so I figured I was basically a hyperdoc that protected from both bad and good.

And then I forgot about the part where I couldn't be touched by ANYONE when I asked for Llama's gift.

I figured KMD-scum wouldn't have even targeted me given that it would have incriminated him so badly. I protected myself on the off-chance that KMD was town, because I knew that if he was, and Charter wasn't a roleblocker, that scum could roleblock and kill me and try to spin it as KMD's fault.

Funnily enough, it helped that I was claimed and pretty much confirmed most of the game, so VP helped out by essentially clearing me. Not being completely straightforward with my claim helped tremendously as well because it caught Charter day 3. I also love that I didn't submit anything the night I was roleblocked. That was lucky.

I'm glad I read KMD correctly.

Mykonian needs to work on his town game...

It's always awesome when scum kill each other off. This will be memorable.

This was a VERY enjoyable game. Good job Spyrex! It also seemed well balanced, and even the limited abilities were quite well done.

Honestly Porkens wins my MVP award, even though he missed day 2. He did hit a pretty good target that was hard to read then, and of course, the afatchick shot was amazing. I would have shot Charter day 2 though, and by luck he turned out to be scum.

I'm also glad I read Charter correctly! That's quite a feat.

Also, Incognito's crazy pro-town play is what I was expecting (and failed to get) from KMD. Good job Incog!

What else....?

It seems plum and ZazieR didn't really affect the game that much :/.

I kinda like Llama's "new" playstyle, and that might have kept him alive just because scum would think he's a possible lynch candidate. I was a little surprised he wasn't targeted for kill on the last night.

I was all set for bringing up the people who had insisted on only one scumgroup today. Seems KMD was in that list.

[Zilla]

After years of study, you have learned to

control the ether

around you to

form protective barriers

around people. Further, you’ve learned how to

watch your own wards

and see who, if any, has attempted to penetrate them.

A.) Once per game, you may select a target. That target will be jailed that night. They

can not be affected by any players

in the game in any way.
A.) Once per game, you may select a target. That target will be jailed that night. They

can not be affected by any players

in the game in any way. Further, you will [/b]know the names of any players that attempted to target the player[/b] that night.
W.) You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Bolded are things that totally don't mesh with "jailer." The "

protective

barriers" and the watcher aspect made the whole "guardian" thing make more sense than jailer, and like I said before, it said nothing about detaining my target. I thought the "they will be jailed" thing was a not-too-literal way of giving an example of what the role does, without flavor. i.e. "the effect of your action is similar to a jailer in that they can't be targeted in

any

way" as opposed to "You're a jailer, you're jailing them. Jailer."

Also, now that I see everyone's role PM, I can see that you "quoted" their role name. That didn't make sense to me, and here I was thinking "Who is this Abjurer fellow? Is he a backup mod?"

[Zilla]

EBWOP: the inside bolded, I took to be the clarification of "will be jailed that night" that superseded it, meaning the "will be jailed that night" was a generality for a shortcut for those "in the know."

More "unnecessary quotation" marks.

[Zilla]

@KMD: see my remarks on your play day 1. You really were tunneling on me, and then your defense of that seemed very

wrong

because instead of going "oh, yeah, there ARE other people here." you were all "No no, my paltry offhand comments on other people PROVE I'm not tunneling!"

And the whole trying to run me up on a rail for doing something that wasn't even scummy to begin with (sure it was odd, but again, there was absolutely no scum motivation for my antics early day 1).

Oh, I'm also kinda glad this is over so I can use it in an ongoing game now, because it proves that half-serious votes DO exist, and that the dichotomy of "Only joking" and "Only serious" is bologna.

[Zilla]

Lastly, that role idea I suspected Llama of having is worth remembering... It's downright insidious! I'd probably pair it with a godfather as well, and smart scum would have the godfather claim to be the one giving out the "gifts" for an airtight alibi (except for watchers/trackers).

[Zilla]

Myk: you need to play more aggressively. Your play always looks too opportunistic, and devoid of real scumhunting. Most games, it seems you let town think for you, and that looks mega suspicious.

[Zilla]

I MIGHT have been able to be convinced of Incog being guilty just because I've been just as pro-town as scum before, but you'd have your work cut out for you, especially given my neutral-slightly scummy read on you to begin with. KMD pushing you was the only thing that cleared you slightly.

[Zilla]

Seeing as things are as they are now, if the game wasn't over, Llama probably would have been lynched day 4 because I didn't get anything from him.

[Zilla]

Well, I didn't trust Llama to the bitter end. I didn't trust KMD either, and I was right for that. If we lost and I had gotten Llama lyncched, that would have been the second game where my read on Llama as scum would have cost us the game. I guess I'll have to settle for Llama appearing scummy to me. That must be true because I was the driving force behind his wagon in Family Guy where he was vig, and even after he claimed, I thought for sure he was scum or SK.