Mini 803 - Pale Moon Risin' (Over!)

[VP Baltar]

/confirm

[VP Baltar]

Werewolves w/ rocket launchers? We're soooo screwed.

[VP Baltar]

I meant you being a werewolf and having a rocketlauncher actually. How do you get those big hairy mits into the trigger mechanism?

[VP Baltar]

Vote Camn

Grammar error=time to die

[VP Baltar]

vote VP Baltar

for the 'we' in "we are all screwed.

If I said 'I are all screwed' I'd have to vote myself on my newly placed grammar policy, now wouldn't I?

[VP Baltar]

What's scummy about FoS/voting 4 players? Even outside of RVS?

I'm pretty sure it's the timeframe in which you did it in. You could have been simply testing the waters to see what stuck. I'm of the belief that this is definitely what your Porkens vote was.

Porkens did, I reacted that that could be a good post in the beginning, and that I did agree with it.

You think Porkens' vote was serious, yes or no? If yes, please explain what you think he was voting me for.

[VP Baltar]

Porkens, was your vote on me serious?

[VP Baltar]

It seems more to me that you were considering voting for me because you saw I had 3 votes and thought it was a serious wagon forming. You implied that you had considered voting for me, but just needed some more suspicions confirmed before you cast the vote. I would contest that it wasn't a serious wagon at all.

Other people also seemed to not be taking Porkens serious. I would like to know if he thought it was a serious vote or not.

[VP Baltar]

While I support the Zilla case, I don't think it's necessary to finish the day so quickly. I would particularly like to look at mykonian, particularly the potential for him to be Zilla's scumbuddy.

When mykonian was speaking about his reasons for not random voting he said this:

Slightly better then random voting, as you did, works way better in getting the game going. But I don't yet want to vote zilla, till I have seen more.

I already mentioned how this struck me as odd concerning his feeling out of a case on me. Looking at it again, if "slightly better than random voting" is his idea of getting the game going, why didn't he vote Zilla at that point, who he had begun to question seriously?

Then Llama asks mykonian if Zilla is his top pick, and he says:

b: yes top pick, but I want to look longer.

Why the need to look longer, she was in no danger of being lynched and a vote would be a good way of showing your intentions and "getting the game going".

He then tries to back out of his Zilla case a bit to avoid pressuring her too hard:

that is enough to me, with the added saying that the votes were nothing serious. I don't need to know more. Do you?

In post 78, Zilla is quick to vote mykonian in "serious mode" for what seem like pretty spurious reasons (ie reluctance to vote her and "unbidden defence of Porkens"). It looks more like distancing than a reasonable vote.

Then about the middle of page four, Zilla continues to argue with mykon that he should vote for her, which he refuses to do, saying:

votes aren't very much checked in the RVS. They don't say a lot. But if they don't say a lot, why would you vote?

Mykonian, when you said this did you consider the game still deep in the RVS or was it transitioning out?

Then we get some talk about needing a town meta on Zilla from mykon (which he could probably easily find himself if he really cared). Toward the end of page four he still spends more time talking about why he would rather not vote and does not hesitate to joke with players and talk about final examinations.

On page 5, Charter, Incog and Llama start coming down a bit harder on Zilla and don't seem like they are going to let up anytime soon. Finally, we get a magical vote out of mykonian based on the fact that Zilla is being attacked in this game for something that she was once attacked for as scum.

Mykonian, is Zilla's meta in that one instance the only thing that brought you out of feeling she wasn't voteworthy "at the time" to know putting her fairly close to lynch?

Unvote, Vote:mykonian

----------------------------------------

Baltar : yes, -ish.

I like the wagon on Zilla.

I'm going to take that as a flat out yes. Why didn't you follow up on it if you were serious? What do think about the way mykonian was piggy backing on it, but wouldn't vote?

What exactly do you like about the Zilla wagon? Do you think we should lynch her right now?

--------------------------

You voted someone for doing what the right thing to do in that situation was. So basically all at once you lied about your role, voted someone for doing the right thing (for random reasons?), then called it partially serious, then attack more people for doing the right thing.

While I like the Zilla case, the language rampant in this post of calling Porkens' play as the "right thing" irks me. It seems like a rhetorical device to add weight to your points. While Porkens' play might have been standard for the situation, I disagree with quantifying it as "right' or "wrong" and then saying that Zilla should be suspicious for attacking the "right" reaction.
-------------------------------------------------------

"Spaghetti strategy" is not just a scum strategy. That's how I like to scumhunt.

Ok, but like Kmd said, if that is what you are doing why were you so willing to let Porkens go? If your goal is to catch scum, then there isn't much point in doing it if you are just going to say that it's only 25% serious. Also, before you set your "trap" did you consider how much flak you were going to get for fakeclaiming double voter? Do you feel that the response against you has been much more than you anticipated?

Also, I never lied about it. I never said it was serious. 25% serious is 75% not-serious.

This is a scum semantics argument, and it looks like you're trying to back out of your commitment to it now. The point is that at least some part of you thought Porkens was seriously rolefishing. Due to it only being 25% serious, do you think it should be disregarded as a point against you?

[VP Baltar]

Catching up post...apologies in advance for stream of conciousness:

Also, to vote within 3 pages on meta, I don't know, don't feel confortable with it[/qutoe]
So, for clarity, you were suspicious of Zilla based on meta as early as page 3?

I dont think myk is overly suspicious.

In post 72 you ask him a series of questions which at least implies you found him slightly suspicious, however, you never follow up on his answers. I take it you were completely satisfied with his replies, correct?

The fact that he built a complete case against mykonian under the premonition that Zilla is scum is creepy. VP Baltar, do you see mykonian as scummy independent of his interactions of Zilla? Your case only seems to work under the assumption that Zilla is definitely scum here, and we haven't had an alignment flip yet sooo, yeah.

*plays eerie organ music*
I've been suspicious of mykonian since early in the game when he was testing the waters of my "wagon" early in the game. His complete reluctance to vote even after the game was well out of the RVS is scummy.

Then we have Zilla acting independently scummy. So, I see two people acting scummy and then I looked at their reasons for voting each other. I think if you really examine them you will see how shaky their reasons are when there really are better reasons for voting each of them. My feelings on mykon are not dependent on Zilla, but I think they could theoretically be scum together.
(Just for reference, I think my case points more to Zilla bussing mykon if they're both scum and mykon being hesitant to bus Zilla)

Plus, I don't think it's going to help the game to rush the Zilla wagon anyway.

mykonian's vote on Zilla strikes me as extremely scummy.

Ah, so see, you do agree with me.

The fact that so much of the thread seems to be ignoring this really creeps me out.

*continues dissonant organ music*

Note things like "I'm pretty sure" and "you could have been simply."

That's how you disregard the point I made against you? I don't even know what you are trying to imply by saying this. Try again.

Aww, I had a quote block prepared and everything.

He didn't say anything else other than "I support the Zilla case."

Well, I guess you got me there....oh, wait, you completely ignored the questions that were put to you in my last post:

Ok, but like Kmd said, if that is what you are doing why were you so willing to let Porkens go? If your goal is to catch scum, then there isn't much point in doing it if you are just going to say that it's only 25% serious. Also, before you set your "trap" did you consider how much flak you were going to get for fakeclaiming double voter? Do you feel that the response against you has been much more than you anticipated?

This is a scum semantics argument, and it looks like you're trying to back out of your commitment to it now. The point is that at least some part of you thought Porkens was seriously rolefishing. Due to it only being 25% serious, do you think it should be disregarded as a point against you?

HUGE FOS: VP Baltar

It almost makes me reconsider my mykonian vote.

I take it mykon is scummier than me since that is where your vote remains. Why do you consider him a better place to put your vote?

VP's condition that Mykonian is only scum if I'm a scumbuddy

Please quote where I stated this condition.

Nothing about his peanut-gallery style of commenting without actual investigation of his own? I personally don't like that he's just offering commentary and analysis without trying to procure information himself. This is scummy.

What? Isn't analysis of posts what one does while scum hunting? Show me some significant quotes where I am just offering commentary and nothing else? What is your definition of procuring information? I'm starting to see where Charter is coming from when he says that you are leaving a lot of blanks in your accusations for people to fill in themselves?

I'm not liking KMD at all this game.

Is there anyone in this game that has questioned you who you haven't immediately OMGUSed?

[VP Baltar]

Post before work, so I dont' have time to address everything now. I will try to later today. However, I wanted to follow up on this while it's still fresh:

@VP Baltar. Yes, on page three, I already saw similarity with the game I played with zilla. The flood of cases that don't really make sense.

Ok, so what changed between page 3 and when you voted? You said at one point that you were suspicious of Zilla, but needed to see more before voting her. In you vote for her the only additional reason you stated was meta, but you were apparently already suspicious of her for that reason, so I would like to know what was the proverbial 'straw that broke the camel's back'? What was the thing that made you finally decide the case on Zilla was serious enough to vote her?

[VP Baltar]

Why would a daykill mafia shoot a powerrole on his team unprovoked, especially one as useful as Governor?

[VP Baltar]

To let others think that he's town?

Wouldn't the same thing be achieved by killing a goon?

[VP Baltar]

Did I consider getting flak, and was the response more than I bargained for? I thought I'd get attention. I also don't think the response is more than I bargained for because Llama was the only one to even really comment on it, the rest are apparently angry at me for voting Porkens on a weak premise (when we were transitioning, thanks to me, out of RVS, I should remind you, with a 75% joke vote). What I want to know is why you asked these questions.

Your Porkens vote was related to you claiming double voter, so you have gotten a lot of flak over it. The reason I asked you this is that it seems like and awfully ill conceived plan if you are town. It seemed to me that you came under fire a bit harder than you had originally thought you were going to.

And yes, I do need you to remind me again and again and again that you were the slayer of RVS with a 75% joke. I love that story.

Second, I'm saying you don't really believe it, but you believe you can sell it, so you're going to try to push it. If you really believed it to be the case, it would be on terms of whether or not it is possible. You laid out that "It could be that you're being scummy, so I believe it." Why couldn't it be a town move?

Tell me more about what i believe and don't believe. It's great logic. Also, I think it is great when you paraphrase what people say to fit your point. Another solid move.

But to answer your question, it indeed could be a scum move. I feel you were particularly ferverent about it, which seems more of a scum move than town.

porkens and charter. I don't like porkens saying he likes the Zilla wagon, but I don't think he's scum for it. Again, I see newbie, not scum. Charter is just being super tunnel vision as usual, and is a null tell.

You also jumped on Kmd, mykonian and myself shortly after we started questioning you. It seems to me that as soon as anyone questions you, you are ready to FOS, vote them or call them possible scum and generally for very weak reasons. It's all a bit reactionary.

--------------------------------------

VP, like I said before, who is going to vote on page 3, based on the fact that you think her scummy cases can't be explained, like she said, that she always does that?

Indeed, I wanted to see how she continued. I was going to vote her, but what harm could waiting do? If I point out what she was doing wrong, what made me think she was scum, she could alter her play. If I acted too soon, maybe my case would look worse, and seen that there was no harm in waiting, why wouldn't I?

Well, if she is always like that and she changed after you accused her, wouldn't that be a sure scumtell?

My point is that you said on page 3 that you were suspicious of Zilla, but needed to see more. You say that you didn't want to tip her off and have her change her behaviour before you voted. HOWEVER, you vote her 24 hours after you make your first accusation. Doesn't exactly seem like a very long time to see if she's playing up to her meta.

Also, if you already had these suspicions of her based on meta, why did you have to keep asking her for games? You must have seen her before as town to even have these suspicions in the first place. Then it only takes you little over 40minutes to read her in 1 town game and determine that your suspicions are correct.

I call BS (big scum).

I say we lynch mykonian today, and then you can all consider how awesome my case on Zilla is tomorrow.

[VP Baltar]

Do you think zilla is scum?

I'm inclined to think so, but I feel better about mykonian. I'm trying not to be swayed by Zilla's excessive ranting and raving, since that seems to be her MO.

[VP Baltar]

Modus operandi

[VP Baltar]

Further, you indeed pressured me, because several people think it is a scumtell to vote late! Can you explain to me why that is a scumtell?

Looking over the time between when you first stated you found Zilla suspicious and when you placed your vote, I don't see a lot of pressure on you about hurrying up and voting.

I was indeed questioning you, but I was interested in how you appeared to be testing the waters on my wagon by launching from a point posted by Porkens, not so much about whether you were voting or not.

Also, in that 24hr period between your suspicion and vote, most of the posts are questioning Zilla. You only had two votes during that period (Incog and Zilla)and it really doesn't look like you were under an extreme amount of pressure to vote. Perhaps you perceived it that way, but it doesn't seem so when I was reading again.

I have a few people I want to hear something from.

Such as who? and what? perhaps you could ask them directly if they aren't checking in so we can move the game along.

I can almost GUARANTEE you that we're not owning this game so hard where BOTH of the leading wagons have been on scum -- that's just simply probability and math.

Yeah, it might not be true, and statistically speaking is bloody unlikely. What did you think about their reasons for voting each other, however? I also wanted to try something different this game and start thinking a bit more about scum teams rather than individual scum. I saw a connection and decided to point it out 1) because it could be true, and 2) it would be a good way to gauge their reactions and those of othe players.

I dislike forming connections between people until after alignment flips

Really? You seem to be doing it when you are asking specific people for opinions on other specific players. I'm just being much more explicit about it. Obviously it iss not guaranteed that Zilla is scum if mykon flips, but let me ask you this, based on the case I made would you be suspicious of her if he did flip scum?

I do find it scummy though to suggest that both of the leading wagons might be on scum since that kind of position allows for a hypo-scum to easily sway from one wagon to the next.

Does that appear to be what I am doing? I haven't moved my vote from mykon since I placed it...which was at a time when the Zilla wagon was at 4 votes and going strong, while the mykon wagon was at 2 and getting little attention.

what's your read of LF?

I can't say I have a strong read on him one way or another. I think you made some decent points in your case, particularly about the not contributing since he unvoted Zilla. I think if he has anything significant to say (which he claims he does) then he needs to ask his questions and then say it instead of trying to be so mysterious.

Also, I think some people in this game are a bit more suspicious of him because they have played with him before and, from what I understand, his scum game is very pro-town. I don't have a meta on him at all, so I'm not really influenced by what I would call the 'paranoia' some other people might feel.

[VP Baltar]

Zilla's reason for voting mykonian struck me as being more sound, actually, since I agree that it really did appear as though mykonian was kinda sitting the fence a bit at first with regards to what he thought about Zilla.

Here is everything Zilla said to justify her vote:

I really don't like his stance here, I'm thinking his reluctance to commit to a vote on me is because he knows that this case leads to a mislynch and he can't quite bring himself to commit to it on such shaky logic. I also didn't like his 48 unbidden defense of Porkens.

I would have been fine if Zilla attacked mykon over his

reasons

for attacking her. Those were weak and largely unstated at that point, but she votes him over a perceived "reluctance to commit to a vote". Weak sauce. She tacks on his defense of Porkens. I'm curious, do you think that was a good reason as well?

re: connecting players. Ok, I can see where you see the difference between what I did and what you did. I would like to say, however, that the case I made on mykon is not 100% built on the premise that Zilla is scum. Even if you take her out of the equation as scum in that case, I make points for mykon being scummy.

Doesn't that suggest that you support both of their lynches today? I don't see what you're arguing here.

You were making it out that I supported their lynches equally, which is not true. The point I was making about Zilla's wagon being the leading one at the time is this: why would I, as scum, not vote for Zilla's wagon that was gaining steam when it wouldn't have been suspicious at all to do so? Even though mykon was second wagon, wouldn't the obvious play there for scum have been to go after the wagon most likely to lynch in the shortest possible time?

That's all wifom, of course, but so was your point, so I think it's fair to consider.

The people who have commented on LF have mentioned nothing about "him appearing very pro-town here therefore he's likely scum". You yourself just said that I raised some decent points against him -- why do you believe people are suspicious of him here because he appears pro-town here?

When did I say people said him appearing pro-town makes him "likely scum"? I don't appreciate hyperbole much. I just get this air that people don't always read normal pro-town moves made by him to be completely indicative of town-Llama.

For instance, this:

I once saw Llama bus me Day 1 and our other buddy Day 2. He bussed us both extremely hard when nobody else was even suspicious of us until he brought his cases forward.

I also thought I remembered someone joking with him in this game about something along the lines of having a tough time reading him, but I can't seem to find it, so I may be wrong.

[VP Baltar]

@VP - Why myk over Zilla?

Because he hasn't defended the case against him very well, imo. Therefore, I find him more scummy.

[VP Baltar]

So someones summiness depends on how well they defend their case?

That's a nice leap in logic you have there. Someone's scumminess depends on the scummy actions they take in the game. If a person cannot defend and justify their actions, it generally causes one to believe that those accustions may be valid.

Also, when are you going to answer my questions about your big top secret case?


I like Zilla a lot on this page, and Kmd not so much.

Kmd, you are tunnelling a lot on Zilla and it's over the same points again and again and again. The only really new thing you've added to the case is this Incog as potential partner accusation, which you yourself admit means nothing right now. If Zilla weren't in this game, who would you vote right now?

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: the only really new thing you've added to the case

recently

...

[VP Baltar]

Ok, apparently I have a massive catch-up/defense post to do, so here it goes:

If she defends and I disagree with the defense, I'm going to counter her points and it may seem repetitive. That's how it works.

If not Zilla, I'd look at Plum or Llama. Neither of the two is playing to their town meta. I've mentioned this before.

Yeah, but it's the same arguments again and again. 'was she serious or not?' 'her reasons for voting myk weren't great'. etc. It doesn't seem like you are gaining any ground in your questioning when you could easily move on to Plum or Llama and get some new information in the game.

I can't tell if myk 322 is scare tactics or genuine.

(VP) said that he thought the cases raised against the both of them were equally good

Actually, you said I said that. Please quote me where I said that.

Ok, I see with this back and forth between Incog and Kmd I need to bring up my vote post on mykonian again. While I did point out how they could be scum together, my reasons for voting mykonian were not dependent upon Zilla being scum (as in, if Zilla's not scum, I have no reason to be voting myk).

Let's go to the posts:

My iso posts 5, 6, and 7 all clearly show that I was finding myk suspicious for the way he tried to say i was suspicious based on Porkens' vote in the RVS. What really stuck out to me about this is that I had 3 votes on me and he appeared to be testing the waters to cast a 4th, even though the previous 3 just seemed like an early wagon to check for reactions.

Then the points i make in my voting post:

I admit that the opening does sound bad now that I read over it.

I would particularly like to look at mykonian, particularly the potential for him to be Zilla's scumbuddy.

The first point I make against mykonian is really independent of whether Zilla is scum or not.

When mykonian was speaking about his reasons for not random voting he said this:

Slightly better then random voting, as you did, works way better in getting the game going. But I don't yet want to vote zilla, till I have seen more.

I already mentioned how this struck me as odd concerning his feeling out of a case on me. Looking at it again, if "slightly better than random voting" is his idea of getting the game going, why didn't he vote Zilla at that point, who he had begun to question seriously?

My second point about him backing out of his Zilla vote, is somewhat dependent upon her being scum. The point about Zilla voting to distance obviously is fully depedent.

I seem to return to point 3 when I say:

Then we get some talk about needing a town meta on Zilla from mykon (which he could probably easily find himself if he really cared). Toward the end of page four he still spends more time talking about why he would rather not vote and does not hesitate to joke with players and talk about final examinations.

This, again, could be seen as dependent or not dependent depending upon how you want to take it.

Point 5 is not dependent at all upon Zilla being scum, but could just be seen as a scum mykonian going along finally with a promising wagon:

On page 5, Charter, Incog and Llama start coming down a bit harder on Zilla and don't seem like they are going to let up anytime soon. Finally, we get a magical vote out of mykonian based on the fact that Zilla is being attacked in this game for something that she was once attacked for as scum.

So, you would hopefully see why I have some problems with my vote being generalized as entirely dependent upon Zilla being scum, because it's not. There are points that were, and I definitely should have been more careful in what I said when I opened that post, but I think this case is definitely being backed somewhere by scum under these somewhat false premises.

You were making it out that I supported their lynches equally, which is not true. The point I was making about Zilla's wagon being the leading one at the time is this: why would I, as scum, not vote for Zilla's wagon that was gaining steam when it wouldn't have been suspicious at all to do so? Even though mykon was second wagon, wouldn't the obvious play there for scum have been to go after the wagon most likely to lynch in the shortest possible time?

Does this not reek of backtracking?

How is it backtracking? Backtracking is when you rescind something you said. That quote is all wifom to the wifom filled point you made, but nowhere did I say I supported their lynches equally before, so how am I backtracking?

VP, sorry if this was already asked, but would you still support a Zilla lynch?

Less so, especially since she got out of her overly defensive mode and started doing more scumhunting.

But she didn't jump on Charter or Porkens, the players in question. She merely commented on her views of them given that they were voting for her. That's not a scummy OMGUS reaction at all. Misrep much?

She did, however, jump on mykon, myself and Kmd when questioned. Which is what I said. How is that misrep?

Asking for opinions of specific players helps give more of a paper trail and expose those voting or marking down players as town for weak, illogical, or scummy reasons. It serves many purposes, but I've yet to see connections be pointed out on Day 1 in a way that helps the town more than the scum.

That's awesome, I disagree. How does that make me scummy?

(Zilla) voted (mykon) for one of the two reasons you gave against him that work as tells independent of the scumbuddies-based case. You also seemed to think that his reluctance to vote was scummy.

It looks scummier from a third party view, imo. If I know I'm town, and someone says 'hey this was kind of scummy, I need to investigate more before I vote', then I might be inclined to think they are town giving me the benefit of the doubt. Whereas, if I'm a third party observer and I see a player him-hawing around a vote I would see it as suspicious because I don't know either player's alignment.

I don't see how Incog's point was WIFOM.

He said if I was scum I would have placed my vote on mykon at that time because such and such a reason. How is that not wifom?

Llama post 353 is obv-sheeping along where he ignores what everyone has asked him.

[VP Baltar]

You again don't get it, after I explained.

I got your explanation. I just didn't believe it.

Thank you for hoping everybody forgot the defence already.

What are you talking about? Does no one else see how defensive mykonian gets?

You just try to get the best of both, to give you some room to vote one of them.

Huh? Give me some room to vote one of them? I don't even know what you are trying to say here. What did I need "room" to vote one of you for? I wasn't under any pressure to vote if that's what you're getting at.

[VP Baltar]

So, I just spent like, an hour, laying in bed thinking about VP Balthar!
I re-read him in this game, and I even reread him in the Near-Vanilla we recently played together....and he still seems town to me.

And one more woman is disappointed by Baltar in bed.

why no comments on afatchic? Or did I just miss them?

Nope, not that I recall. I dunno why I never did. I guess because he wasn't present...I can't really make any excuses other than he wasn't on my mind until Porkens axed him.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, I think I'm not even going to try to dispute this "equal lynches" point any more. Colors have become involved at this point, and once that happens, you just can't change someone's mind. Even if I pointed out some potential links between then and said I liked both of the cases, it does not mean I had no preference or did not find one person scummier than the other.

Look at your own last post to understand my point:

I can go for any one of the following D1 lynches: LlamaFluff/VP are my preferred lynches and Kmd is the other lynch I'd possibly support.

Even though you would support one of these three lynches, I'm sure you have a preferential order to them. You just happened to have stated that more clearly than I did. I don't think my post indicates Zilla and Myk as equal, therefore I'm not backtracking. That's all the more I can say on it really.

You're basically obsessing over that one sentence of my post and that's really the whole case against me. I think the number of points made against myk is actually stronger than that.

WHEN DID I SAY THIS?

I'm referring to this:

whether or not mykonian only had two votes at that time compared to Zilla's four votes doesn't really matter -- I think by that time when you made your case against the two of them, it seemed pretty evident judging by the people who were making their feelings heard that mykonian was someone who had the potential to receive a good deal of attention.

you're implying there that I voted mykonian because I thought he "had the potential to receive a good deal of attention", rather than being scummy. That is what I was calling wifom.

This I agree with, but why, then, aren't you voting him? Do you find mykonian still scummier than LF?

Rereading Llama is high on my to-do list before the weekend is over. After I finish that I will know if I should switch my vote or not, but I'm definitely not liking his big cases he keeps saying he is going to bring and his vote on me was simply ridiculous.

[VP Baltar]

o, and if you didn't believe, tell me earlier please. Not a few pages after that.

What would that change? As a matter of policy for me, if a point comes down to a matter of opinion after being fully discussed, I just let it go. I'm not going to spend pages and pages going over the same thing again and again. If I think a point is exhausted and I have no further questions to ask, screaming at each other isn't going to help the game any.

VP, please writeup your opinion of KMD.

Ok, I will do a reread of him in iso tonight or tomorrow as well.

[VP Baltar]

You're telling me you haven't even looked at him?

I'd like your current opinion, not a "I'm going to see what kind of hypo-case I can construct" opinion. If you're town, I see no reason why you would have entirely ignored the KMD case.

Ok, without a reread, I would say that I find Kmd's tunnelling on you to be unlike what I have seen from him as town before. I would normally expect him to cast a wider net in his scum hunting. He also agreed with Incog a bit about me "backtracking", but never came after me too hard about it.

Do I think that is enough to lynch off of? Probably not. I would definitely prefer a mykon or Llama lynch before a Kmd lynch.

On the comment you made about "hypo-cases"---that's not how I work. If someone asks me to review a player, I like to look at them objectively in iso and if something sticks out, then I'll comment. If nothing sticks out, then I'll let you know. I don't like having to come out here and state gut reactions that I might not want to stand by when I take a closer look at someone. I understand that you don't want someone to flake out of doing something they said they would, but if I did that I would probably be getting lynched anyhow, so you don't have to worry about it.

[VP Baltar]

So you are saying he was "on your mind" after he got killed?
But no mention THEN either?

Before the kill happened I hadn't even thought about afatchic. The kill happens around 10:30 at night on Jun 2. I didn't check the thread until the following morning at 7:30 when I rushing to get ready for work. I was also in the middle of a spat with mykon and Zilla (might be somebody else too, that's just skimming). Here is what I say in my post that morning:

Post before work, so I dont' have time to address everything now. I will try to later today.

By the next time I posted Zazie was talking about Porkens possibly being scum, which I found more important to address than going "Hey, Porkens, good job killing afatchic".

It's also not like afatchic had a lot of interactions in this game to really draw from. There just wasn't all that much to comment on.

[VP Baltar]

He's closest to lynch.

Well, that's pretty solid reasoning.

VP, I'd like your detailed reread now. Note that I'm very suspicious at how little you have thought of KMD.

Note: I don't take orders from you and I don't spend my life on MS. I gave you my general read on Kmd after you demanded it immediately and i said I would get to a detailed reread today. I would appreciate if you'd relax a bit and stop being so bossy.

I do want a lynch though, and sooner rather than later.

Deadline is in like 4 days, that's not soon enough for you?

@Plum-I don't quite understand what you are saying in your second point there. The first part is exactly what i was saying. Zilla said she didn't jump on Charter or Porkens. I pointed out that she did in fact jump on three others who had attacked her. That

also

in there is confusing.

I have expressed suspicion on Zilla, you, Llama, Incog, Camn, and Plum

Like you said, Incog and Camn can't really count. I don't think you've been very forceful with either myself or Plum. That leaves Zilla, who you have vehement about, and Llama, who you have gone after a bit more than the remainder of the lineup. It's a bit narrower of a path that I would expect from you.

The thing is that you should already have some kind of a read on a player if you are town.

Didn't I clearly state my general opinion of you and Llama in that post?

Is it just me or did VP just ignore my enitre case against him by saying I was following others?

That's because you didn't bring any new information to the case and were essentially just corraborating what Incog and Kmd had been saying.

Also what questions am I missing according to you except the fairly obvious "Who was I thinking was scum?"

Well, let's see:

FOS: LlamaFluff, ZazieR for trying to get Porkens to claim; what good does that do from a town standpoint? Especially from Llama who says Porkens is likely town.

Porkens backs this point later and says he would also like to hear your response.

I definately do not like Llama's position. He says he's "working on something." Where? I don't see it.

He also demands a fullclaim from porkens because mafia flipped a power role. What? This makes me equally suspicious. I understand part of his reasoning, but firstly, as my last post says, we don't need any of this information from Porkens, and I can only see his fullclaim helping scum. THAT is rolefishing. THAT is real, true rolefishing, not random-vote-accruing rolefishing.

So someones summiness depends on how well they defend their case?

That's a nice leap in logic you have there. Someone's scumminess depends on the scummy actions they take in the game. If a person cannot defend and justify their actions, it generally causes one to believe that those accustions may be valid.

Also, when are you going to answer my questions about your big top secret case?

Still waiting on that one.

I just have somewhat of a gut read that myk is town. There is not a whole lot to back it up. Its just a mix of my gut scummy reads and him having a similar read.

I doubt this gut read of yours came about back on page 4, right (which was when this 'switch' from myk-hate to fanboy happened)?

I disagree with how its used, thats not something that makes him someone to lynch, just reckless. I still kind of want him to roleclaim though. With a role more descriptive then "mafia" shown already, something just flipping "One shot day vig" is odd.

What's odd about it? This is a town versus werewolves set-up. The mod called this particular werewolf (afactchic) a Forest Wolf Governor. Aside from the "Forest Wolf" prefix, a Governor is a pretty standard role. I don't see why Porkens would need to claim any further than he has already.

Zazie/Llama/Porkens, why no vote? I'm especially curious about Llama, who I KNOW prefers for everyone to always have a vote out.

But it's not lurking that has me worried about Llama. Well, actually, I guess that's part of it. He isn't controlling the game. He's not saying "ok, here's who we're lynching. Back off of this person and vote for this person". And most importantly, he doesn't have a vote out.

Also, Plum says she finds you suspicious, but never states a case. That would be something I would certainly inquire about if I was town.

You also never follow up on the questions you put to Zazie about her opinions on Porkens...this is similar to what you did with mykonian earlier.

Anyhow, that is eight things and I only skimmed between pages 12 and 14. I think you get the idea, and I'm bored. I'm sure there would be more if I looked at the remainder of the pages. Looking back in detail now it's very obvious how much you have been trying to skirt the suspicion on you by lurking and then sheeping along with Incog's points against me. You win the prize!

Unvote, Vote LlamaFluff

VP: Do you still want a Mykonian lynch?

I would support it, but obviously now LlamaFluff is looking much more tantalizing. One thing I would point out about mykonian is that he hasn't exactly done a whole lot since the spotlight came off him. His last post is just basically regurgitating generally accepted opinions.

[VP Baltar]

Did you? Quote please.

I thought I had talked about Llama in that post too, but I guess I didn't. However, I had been talking about him more in general than I had with you. That being said, I think I just expressed how I feel about Llama in that last big post. Anyhow, here is what I said was my general opinion of you:

Ok, without a reread, I would say that I find Kmd's tunnelling on you to be unlike what I have seen from him as town before. I would normally expect him to cast a wider net in his scum hunting. He also agreed with Incog a bit about me "backtracking", but never came after me too hard about it.

Do I think that is enough to lynch off of? Probably not. I would definitely prefer a mykon or Llama lynch before a Kmd lynch.

VP, what did I do in the game we played together? Next to nothing early in the game, re-read everyone, found Raider scummy, and pushed his lynch all day. He was your scumbuddy and you killed me that night. So what is different about my play here? Well, I'm more active obviously. And I'm looking at a couple of other players, and not just the one I find scummiest like I did there.

Open 122 you were quite actively questioning hewitt, ac1983fan, dejkha, Ztife and Rin Twisted on Day 1 (you were on all three scum! good job, no wonder you Nk'ed N1).

I would disagree with your assesment of Newbie 696 too. You had a slightly wider variety of suspects early in the game. Yes, you did latch on to Raider when you thought you had scum, but you also made posts like this before that happened. Again, we see a wide net.

Then there is Tranquility, where you start on camn and move to DraketheFake, stormer and Stef in Day 1. Again, we see a wider net here.

That's basically where I'm coming from when I say I think you are tunneling a bit more in this game than I have seen you as town in the past.

[VP Baltar]

I think I'm missing/not understanding things here.

QFT. You've become increasingly lazy since you stopped being under suspicion.

Who are your top three picks for a lynch and why. (Obviously I'm #1, so I guess who are your other two?)

[VP Baltar]

And camn wins the cookie!

why did you have to accuse me in this way?

Well, as of Wednesday June 3 at noon EST (which is basically the halfway point of the game thus far, and is also close to the time that I came under heavier suspicion) you had 41 posts in the game. In the second half of the game, you're currently at 32 posts. That speaks nothing to content, which I think you have really been lacking in.

Why as a rhetoric question?

I don't even see a rhetorical question in there. Please point it out for me.

why lazy, in stead of lurking?

Variety is the spice of life!

If everything I posted in that summary, is about right, then I'm suspicous further of Charter very soon after you

When will you know if what you posted "is about right"? How will this be confirmed to you? Your main point about charter seems to be related to one other game. You also claim that his "arguments" about zilla are subjective. I see one point he made that you called subjective, please show me some other ones you pointed out as subjective so your plural "arguments" can be correct.

Llama/KMD at a clear third place. Don't really know what to think about them.

ERROR. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Llama and Kmd are clearly your third place, but you don't really know what to think about them. k.

[VP Baltar]

@kmd-well, we can have Incog and Zazier comment on 696, since they were in that game as well.

Open 122 you were actively questioning hewitt early in the day. Maybe not carrying the banner for his lynch, but you were questioning him. I do agree however that you were on Rin the hardest (I actually thought it was a good argument).

Tranquility I may have wrong because I was skimming your posts in iso and therefore didn't have a lot of context. I did read that game, but that was while we were playing 696 and I don't remember a lot from it. Charter was your mason partner in that game, correct? he can comment then if he agrees with your analysis.

However, I would say that you did have serious votes on stormer, Stef and camn on day 1. Even if you later defended stormer and were gambiting on Stef, it would show that you were at least suspicious of people other than your main target of camn.

ITT, you put your vote on Zilla in your third post and it hasn't moved since.

[VP Baltar]

KMD/Llama are more people that are more likely to be scum, that are only put there because you needed a top three.

What makes Kmd and Llama higher on your list than Zilla, who you have actually looked into and made points against?

[VP Baltar]

@Llama, have you actively read the game up to this point?

[VP Baltar]

I was for all

intents and

purposes voting for you. Was trying out how seeing keeping a few suspicions hidden would work.

And how did it work out for you? What suspicions did you have on me at the time you said you were compiling information? What was corraborated or disproven while you waited?

Also, if you're up to page 16, why not comment on the part where people were talking about you knowing Charter from Family Guy mafia?

I'm actually surprised Llama and KMD haven't called him on it, especially KMD who did comment on Charter's strategy postgame in Family Guy:

Why no comment on this:

Right now, I'll support KMD, VP, and Llama

or this:

(VP) never mentions afatchic.
Why is that? No mention at all. Everyone else at least comments on afatchic...(except LLAMAFLUFF!) maybe they are trying to keep the distance?

or this:

-- It's really really creepy how many people are ignoring the scumminess of LlamaFluff here.

I can go for any one of the following D1 lynches: LlamaFluff/VP are my preferred lynches and Kmd is the other lynch I'd possibly support. Really not liking his last bunch of posts; he looks like he's just kicking up a lot of dirt at this point.

or this again:

There were NOT a lot of people who never mentioned afatchic. Only VP and LLAMAFLUFF. It is so strange to me, that I am almost convinced that there MUST be at least one scum between the two of them.

or this:

This is probably my biggest concern in this game.

He is playing completely against his meta, but the minute I point that out, he goes for a Llama-style case on VP. So I think it was somehow intentional that he was playing the way he was and he backed off of whatever he was doing when he was playing more reserved for whatever reason. He seemed to back off because he was seen as scummy for it. My original thought, while I wasn't going to say so, was that he was a jester. I am sure this isn't the case now because he took action to avoid looking scummy instead of accepting the lynch that was probably going to come. He's probably scum who was trying a new strategy. When it backfired, he went after VP like Llama would normally do. Note that this isn't a towntell on VP because Llama has bussed in the past.

I'll go out on a limb and say I'd lynch Llama today. I'm rarely ok with lynching him on Day 1, but I'd be fine with it here. Something is off in his play.

Ok, that is from page 14 to page 16 where you said you are caught up. Any reason not to respond to these points either?

[VP Baltar]

most of what you are quoting is people saying they are somewhat suspicious of me without really giving any reasoning. I am just going to provide alternatives instead of defending myself against something that as far as I know is a hunch.

Some of the stuff is yes, but certainly not all of it is. The point is that there are numerous examples where people address things to or about you specifically and you simply ignored them via a "case" on me. Even if you think that pointing out my wagon as an "alternative" is the best way to defend yourself, I would still expect you to address things people were waiting on answers from you on if you were actually reading the game. Simply ignoring them is not a pro-town action and looks like you were just hoping people would forget or not bother with it today since they had started focusing on me.

[VP Baltar]

I know that the deadline isn't too far off. But the Mykon wagon AND the Zilla wagon instill, in me, a sense of paranoia. Zilla did a good job, I think, defending herself (through volume if nothing else), and Mykon was just "not Zilla" for all I could see. I'd like to peruse other avenues.

What do you think of LlamaFluff?

Apparently if I am going to change playstyle I need to go make an alt.

So your new playstyle is to lurk your ass off and then just come in with some previously stated reasons to jump on the leading wagon?

And a serious question, why would you choose to try and change your meta in a game with people who know you reasonably well and/or have shown they are at least reasonably good at the game of mafia?

[VP Baltar]

Plum, what do you think of Llama? You said you were going to prepare a case on him, but now seem to have abandoned that for repeating your points against me. I read them the first time, and I'm sure everyone else did as well. I'd like to see your analysis of Llama now.

[VP Baltar]

VP: Why Llama over KMD?

Because I think it is pretty obvious that he jumped on my case out of convenience to get any attention off himself. I mean, just look at all the things I pointed out that he hadn't even addressed. And he did say himself that he had been following the game up to page 16, so there was no way he would have missed them if it's true.

He also went a majority of this game hanging out in the background, which I don't care for.

I did look over Kmd today, but I didn't see a whole lot else besides his tunneling and the sheeping along with Incog against me (which I mentioned earlier). That's why I did the work on looking up his meta as town from games I have seen him in (since no one else had really, and was merely making accusations based on their gut of it).

Who is your number 1 right now out of Llama, kmd and myself? I think we need to make some decisions by tomorrow, because whoever is going to be the lynch needs to claim soon just incase. I don't like having to switch the wagons at the last moment.

[VP Baltar]

Not much time to post now, but to respond to Plum-I didn't see anything new in the post you made. You simply repeated what (Incog) you had said before and then you say that you don't believe the counter arguments that I gave.

Ok.

What further do you want me to say about it? It is quite obvious you have come the conclusion that you can divine what my intentions may or may not have been when I voted mykonian, and that doesn't really seem likely to change. Why should I waste my breath repeating the same old thing?

One thing I would like you to note about your case is how much you have to use the words "implies" and "seems to" to reach your conclusions about me. The fact is that the case on me requires a lot of assuming about what my motives may have been. I suggest you weigh all the leading wagons objectively and just take the time to consider the possiblity that you could be wrong about what my intentions "seem to be".

[VP Baltar]

Nevermind that his only reason for suspecting Mykonian in the first place was conditionally that he could be my scumbuddy.

Keep repeating it and it still won't be true. Please refer to my post where I analyze my voting post on mykonian to show how only some of the points i mentioned were dependent upon you being scum.

ok, sorry for the lazyness then. I'm getting a bit worried by school, so maybe because of that. Just that my mind is not thinking the right way. Now I'm going to try to do something about that, this evening I'm going to try to post something good here.

so if zilla says you're being lazy it's true, but when I point it out first it's an unfounded attack?

I don't understand why people are so assured that mykonian is town.

Camn continues to speak with reason. I would also like to hear Incog's thoughts on the last few pages.

[VP Baltar]

I'm the doc.

Kmd's vote on me is uber suspicious. We're three days from deadline and you yourself say I'm only your 3rd suspect. Who is your second again, I think I forgot?

Mykonian's defense of Llama over nothing is lame and his last posts are largely empty of any real analysis, imo.

[VP Baltar]

Just doctor. My flavor basically says that I've grown tired of seeing my friends and neighbors torn to pieces, but I stay because of my oath to care for the sick and injured.

[VP Baltar]

Today we lynch scum, camn. That's all the explanation that I can give today. Trust me, k.

[VP Baltar]

A one shot doc? mmm, k.

[VP Baltar]

P.S. Zilla, you shouldn't have countered.

My point. My chips are cashed.

[VP Baltar]

My play early was bad, I admit, but I really do suggest that everyone takes a look at Llama tomorrow. He's coming up with BS reasons why he hasn't kept up in th thread.

Plum's reasons for voting me were also shady as hell.

[VP Baltar]

Thanks for the game Spyrex! I think you did a good job modding, and your vote counts weren't annoyingly late or anthing (I was reading along).

I figured I would go with the fake doc claim day 1 after I bungled my play so bad because I was sure that camn and to a lesser extent kmd would pick up on what I was doing. Too bad they were both scum!

Zilla or Incog def. get MVP. You guys did a good job.

Perhaps next time I play with you all I'll wait until at least day 2 to insert my foot in my mouth.

[VP Baltar]

Oh yeah, and Porkens did an awesome job. kudos.