Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!

[Ectomancer]

/confirm

[Ectomancer]

Porkens summary - vote spring, rant, unvote vote Spyrex. Were you afraid of sticking to the Spring wagon for some reason? Random bandwagoning is a pretty good way to get a game going. I don't know why you would then switch to Spyrex without a given reason if you are trying to get out of the random stage. Basically looked like a spaz followed by a random vote anyhow.

Coincidentally, my vote is also going on Spyrex, but for reason.

vote Spyrex

for already attempting to plant the seeds into the town's mind to keep the day shorter. If stated later, it might garner more attention from someone who decides that Spyrex is "trying to end discussion". Given early in the 'rvs' it is far more likely to go under the radar, yet still accomplish the purpose of putting into the back of towns mind that we don't want to the game to drag on.
I'm aware of the balance between content and fading attention spans, so on the surface it could just be an upfront opinion stated by Spyrex giving his view on excessive days. But...I look at effect, and the lack of surrounding context for the volunteering of that opinion, and don't approve of what I think it does, particularly if he tries to curtail talk later, because then the subject has already been broached, and by him, making it easier for him to head off discussion heading in the wrong direction (for him) because he can refer back to this statement about his aversion to month long day 1's.

[Ectomancer]

You certainly voted for Spring, putting you at least temporarily on that wagon. At least long enough for that round about you were having with yourself. You appeared to be making the point that a 3rd vote on Spring really didn't mean all that much and it was fine for it to stay there. You were right.

MY MASTER GAMBIT PLAN WORKED NOW WE HAVE NO RVS

This is why I assumed you were trying to get out of the random voting stage, and the vote on Spring was a good step in that direction. You dropped that random vote on Spyrex though, seemingly abandoning what looked like a perfectly fine move. So, why you abandoned it is confusing to me. All that just to go to a random vote? Makes no sense, so I have to wonder why, and the main thing that sticks out is that you didn't actually want to vote for Spring for some reason.

[Ectomancer]

Your re-written quote is cute, I must admit. The difference of course is that I didn't make such an opinion out of the blue in the RVS stage. Had you been Spyrex altering that quote, I would label it OMGUS. I guess you are OMGUS by proxy

[Ectomancer]

When playing, I assume that people do things for a reason. Sometimes they don't realize they are doing it, or don't realize that their motivations are showing. Two of you had interesting inputs, and both have possibly shady origins. Certainly either could be innocent comments, and that should be explored, but right now, I think having 2 avenues for discussion is certainly better than an RVS.

The only thing that gives me pause at all is why the hell would Ecto be so transparently aggressive before the end of page one?

Fixt.

I've tried not being aggressive. It has never lasted very long other than right after I got out of the hospital.


Spyrex, there are 2 issues I have with your statement.
First, it was a bit out of the blue. Maybe a humorous first post, sure, but an interesting topic to just start out with nonetheless. You chose the topic on purpose. Why you did, I don't really know, but it caught my attention.
Secondly, when I first read it, I thought you said 36 pages. Had you said

that

I probably would have left it alone because 36 pages in a 12 player mini would be a huge chunk of text. But I went back and you didn't. You specifically mentioned

days

, and in forum mafia where some people only get in to post every 2-3 days, they may only have 10-15 posts total for the span of that day. You know as well as I do that some go even longer than 3 days, and pop in with an "I'm here."
Also, by putting a time restriction instead of a size restriction on when you think the day has gone long enough, all you have to do as a scum team to restrict information is to slow post (you don't actually have to lurk, just wait an extra day to respond). Some wishy washy foot dragging tossed in, and it wouldn't be hard for you to get to that 30 day mark and start pressing to get the day over with.

So your phrasing and that it was unprompted puts you up there as my first suspicious player.

Porkens is 2nd, not for the weird, I can handle weird. But going through a dialogue to basically say that a 3rd vote on Spring isn't scummy, but then unvoting and tossing a random vote instead has me wondering why he didn't stay on Spring, and if he wasn't, why go through the rigamarole of demonstrating that to do so was a null tell?

[Ectomancer]

Heh, it was humorous. The question to me is, what else did you do? The actual votes on Spring and the subsequent random(?) vote on Spyrex are also there. Those are actions to me, not part of the humor. I'm looking at what was actually accomplished there. I'm a little surprised that your return was that it was all humor. That was all you meant to accomplish is a bit of fun? If so, wouldn't it have been just as fun to leave your vote on Spring? So...why

didn't

you leave it there?

[Ectomancer]

Touche'

[Ectomancer]

Bah, forgot to unvote. I concede to Artem's point.

unvote

Leads me to my 2nd oddity.

vote Porkens

[Ectomancer]

1: I think I did this last game we were in. Seriously too tedious for me to go through again. I haven't played in 2 months now.

2: This one

3: People who pop in every 4 days with 1 liners.

4: Adel, Springlullaby, Zorblag, spyrex. I think.

5: none

6: none

[Ectomancer]

Quite a few questions Adel, what is the town supposed to get out of it other than indulging your own curiosity (or maybe you are building umpteen info status charts).
Are we supposed to get short term benefits for the questions (I do fail to see the point). If not, do we need to wait before you give a summary with conclusions?
Do you think it distracts from the current building bandwagons? Could this have waited until later? It seems more like a technique for when the game slows down, so I dont see that reasoning. If it was simply to stir discussion, without any other real reason behind it, don't you think it is actually a distraction for the current thread?
Judgement call good or bad? Distracting from a Porkens wagon that seems to be building would be what I consider poor play (save it till later when things stall). I know you like to have at least 2 competing bandwagons, but how is that going to accomplish it?

P.S. - I think I left off Artem (and maybe VI). My memory isn't the best...

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer 41 wrote:
VI
Daykill: Ectomancer
Also, the only game I've been in with you was Meerkat Manor, my second onsite.

Am I dead?

Quote:
Do you think it distracts from the current building bandwagons?

says the person that unvoted SpyreX .

And immediately voted for my second oddity, Porkens. I dont see the point of or like this snide comment, esprecially when it didn't actually answer the question.


@Adel - You're attitude regarding the answers to your questions is abrasive, and not what I've experienced from you. In fact, it sounds like when Ectomancer is being an arrogant jerk. You do know we could have simply refused to answer right? I answered simply because I didn't have to do any research, but if I had been forced to work for your answers, you probably wouldn't have gotten them. Stop ragging on those who didn't answer them all.

@everyone - I really don't care what your preference is for posting methods. Quit muddying the waters with your opinionated meta gamestyle crap.

In addition, I dislike the excuse "I thought we were still in the RVS" on principle. There was already quite a bit of nonrandom discussion going on, and your second "random" vote was rather unnecessary.

Exactly. When material is present and you insist on your "random" vote, all you are doing is avoiding commenting on the current situation, which is either scummy, lazy, inattentive, or clinging to this obesssive need to 'get in your random vote'.

Elmo has only posted once, and that contained what I would presume is his random vote (he's welcome to explain it when he comes back). You (tajo), on the other hand, NONrandomly voted away from springlullaby for no reason I could discern. I would expect a change of vote to have some reason behind it. You didn't provide one, etc.

In addition, I dislike the excuse "I thought we were still in the RVS" on principle. There was already quite a bit of nonrandom discussion going on, and your second "random" vote was rather unnecessary.

I have my reasons for that vote. The weak tells I always vote for in RVS. And when I voted Herodotus I was still in RVS.

Im indeed actually there. With my reread tonight I will finally get out of it.

This is ridiculous. I thought maybe you posted early before things got going, but no, there was all type of discussion going on. You're either lurking or afraid to take a position.

populartajo 78 wrote:
Quote:
Identification of your alts help me lynch you if you are scum, and establish your innocence if you are town. To not reveal your alts in this gave runs counter to the townie win-condition in this game
WTF? I have some alts, Im not going to reveleate them here. There is a purpose for having alts, you know?
I agree with the alpaca on this point.
I know this is a nomination game, but I didn't know we needed to send in a resumé to play or be read "properly"

Ummm yeah. You want meta, find meta. Demanding the names of alts and saying it is counter to the win condition in this game is not how I view it. Maybe you should make an MD poll and see how others feel about it. I suspect you will be in a very small majority.

I don't feel like wasting more time arguing this with you tajo. I'll just do it myself.

If I had the time, I would do it, Adel.

I would like you to answer all your questions also.

Agreed. I see no point in Adel waiting until last, or arguing about it. (how I see it)

If you really want to stalk everyone, you can use the Search function to find the topics someone's posted in (conveniently giving you a list!) within about forty seconds.

Vi may be an apt name for you after all..

Really necessary?

This is getting old and distractng. I think at this point I intend to lynch the most annoying. Too much bickering and very little scum related activity. Yuo can make a freaking case in 30 seconds. It doesnt even matter who they are.

You scared to have it examined? What;s to hide? Explain yoursef, unless you cant, and well....I guess you better head off an investigation,

@Artem:

OMG KITTEN

Do you think it defeats the purpose of wagoning someone for reactions if you tell everyone that's what you're doing?

This is off-putting, to me. I understand that you've stated you'll reveal your reasons later, but this is starting to feel like you're just kicking up sand for the fun of it.

I ceretainly do. I do think there are times when you might reveal it, but that's not before your weed is ready for harvest. Before that, you are just going to get crap and have wasted your time

I have to chime in though about Porkens and his "reactions" post. Clarify me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the purpose of that was reactions at all. It was a joke, a satire on some of the amazing that I know we've ALL seen in early day 1.

So, I dont get it.

A joke is an effective method of deflecting from a player real attack. Both the beginning and the end are not jokes. He chose those 2 players for reason. The question is, why did he abandon the first (after explaining why it was a null tell vite), It demands questions, I didnt read it as simply a joke. Im always reading between the lines behind the joke.

[Ectomancer]

Arg, website double posted an epic novel quote...

Deleted one of them for you.

[Ectomancer]

It is simply null. A joke.

I'm really having a hard time figuring out your reactions and cause and effect with two of your major talking points thus far.

Meh, it is an interpretation open to individual experiences. My experience tells me that the manner in which he did it has something wrong with it. Why didn't he stay on Spring? You say it was part of the joke, which is certainly what he would like us to believe (and reason that you are parroting). I don't agree with your interpretation.
Let's put it another way. Why, in the random stage, would he pick someone to make a "joke" vote and then move off

after making a valid reason for it

, which really makes it

not

a random vote at all. Lots of people make joke votes on someone during RVS, and usually,

they leave them there temporarily because everyone knows its a joke vote.

Worse, if he had left it there, it would have been a 3 vote wagon, not a bad game launching point (we do want out of RVS).
Instead, he voted Spyrex. (randomly)
Also, I'm not saying this lumps you in with Porkens (necessarily), but now the guy most defending him is you, Spyrex.
I'm not entirely convinced on this, and I don't think I will be able to convince you either. I'll put it in my file cabinet, and if a slightly larger minority is convinced that you could be right, I'll remove the vote. Right now though, I'm going with my gut that people are much more likely to make slipups in the first couple pages, rather than later after they feel the need to really keep their guard up.

Let me point out just another personality quirk involved there. He removed it so that other people would know it was a joke. Ok, so what if he didn't and people started pressing him over it. So what? RVS would have ended (he in fact during his joke said "no more RVS hahmuhaha" or whatever)

So what we have in reality is a player who wanted to make a joke, but lacked the gumption to stick his neck out and take some pressure to get the game started.

My playstyle may be different, but people who appear to be afraid to stick their neck out concerns me.

[Ectomancer]

Short of some kind of "Porkens AND spring are scum and Porkens pulled the noobiest gambit trying to burn deflection away from a wagon that had no basis but somehow would get pushed to lynch in this setup because everyone else is sheeple" I do not get any scum (nor town) motivation for the joke.

Sorry, not sure I covered this. A Porkens pairing with either of you has very little support and 'testing' either on that basis would be stupid. It's the perceived reluctance to actually stick his neck out that concerns me. "Oh it was all a joke hahah!"
Alrighty then Mr. Reluctant...

[Ectomancer]

EctoTroll realizes he is beating this horse into glue. Porkens will simply exist on my 'probably not town' list.

unvote

The worst part of all this is that it's taking focus away from the problem with Tajo's late "random" vote

There is a problem with that?

I think so. There were plenty of things to comment on, why did you feel that it was right to simply place a "random" vote? Wouldn't it have been better to comment on the issues concerning the game at that point?

[Ectomancer]

EctoTroll realizes he is beating this horse into glue. Porkens will simply exist on my 'probably not town' list.

unvote

The worst part of all this is that it's taking focus away from the problem with Tajo's late "random" vote

There is a problem with that?

I think so. There were plenty of things to comment on, why did you feel that it was right to simply place a "random" vote? Wouldn't it have been better to comment on the issues concerning the game at that point?

EctoTroll remember mention this one time before. Tajo also avoid answer stuff. He worse than Porkens. People agree with Porkens. Me think Tajo has no ground under his clubfeet.

vote Tajo

[Ectomancer]

This post deleted by request.

[Ectomancer]

Oh man, I just realized that I would probably be ushered out the door with a pitchfork if I tried to join {BAM}

[Ectomancer]

Ok, I'm going to go back though some of the posts I (cant find the word, but lets just say heavily medicated (as prescribed).
Wow, my post 102 had a huge number of quote tag and missing player identity tags to be able to read very coherently. Some good points in there though. Do me a favor and make an effort to go back and decipher it. (sorry for the inconvience) I know some of the fuzzy sections are because the person I quoted didnt name the person they quoted and were responding to.
One line in particular I do want brought to legibility is this one:

@Artem: OMG KITTEN Do you think it defeats the purpose of wagoning someone for reactions if you tell everyone that's what you're doing?

I believe that he was actually just talking about people who just place a vote and nothing else (another topic I have to talk about grrr)
Getting back to point. Both Spyrex (until pointed out I was a slacker) and Porkens really gave me good material to work with. There are players who understand that first rule of getting out of the f*cking rvs stage is just jump on somebody. Seriously, I hate it. If nothing else just pile on to a bandwagon until someone screams "oh god stop! think of the baby seals!.
The second rule, and this is where many fail, is that you've got to keep nagging at that one little point until you get someone else to say something stupid or suspicious. Here's the real rule.

never say you did it to start the game before something else has actually arrived to talk about

. Otherwise, you didnt do anything but waste space.


@Korts - I liked many of your assessments. There were a couple worth investigating. Which do you plan to pursue and are you going to be aggressive enough to push it forward through the rest of the clamor? Or do you think they were simply woth mentioning.

Anyhow, thanks for listening. I hope it helps to explain some of my oddness.

Which posts in this game contain the oddness you hope to explain? I'll looking for an answer that includes post numbers.

This is more of a meta statement than this in game statement. I believe that I was influenced by your own recent decision and this seemed the place where I have people who I have spent years playing a wonderful verbal interactive social game. (I doubd I'll ever post it in MD or GD though) I think some of the variations in my playstyle have been due to the changing prescriptions and really crazy side effects some of them had. Seriously physical stuff like you cant stop moving your arms and legs and flexing your back. Enough of that.

@Porkens - Yes, it wasn't a sympathy play, that's why a prefaced with OOC (Out of character). I know some people have personas (hi there Troll) I guess I'm just trying to explain why sometimes I just cant deal with things and why I can come off as curt or abrasive.

Troll made a good post.

Thanks Elmo. Those comments really do help.

Umm that it. My vote is staying because I must have had a good reason.

[Ectomancer]

The reason I'm excusing Elmo (temporarily) is because Elmo warned us before the game that they might have to lurk due to RL factors. Otherwise, I might have voted Elmo in my last post.

ah, so if there was another player with activity as low as ecto's (or lower) you would not excuse that?

This made me choke on my doughnut

[Ectomancer]

The reason I'm excusing Elmo (temporarily) is because Elmo warned us before the game that they might have to lurk due to RL factors. Otherwise, I might have voted Elmo in my last post.

ah, so if there was another player with activity as low as ecto's (or lower) you would not excuse that?

/

Akbar

(it's a TRAP!)

not very pro-town

Seemed like white noise to me at the time too.

@Adel:
If there is another player in this game who has posted as much as or less than the amount Elmo had posted as of my post 122, then I must not have noticed them at all. There may be people actively lurking, but I have not yet put any effort into evaluating that.
But I'd think if there was a lurker, they would be a decent person to vote (unless they were about to be replaced for their inactivity.)
If you're referring to another game I've played, specify the player, and I'll explain why I didn't vote them.

look at springlullby.

vote: Spring

There's something fishy about being 200% town...

this post is notable.

Vote: Adel

You may be planning to contribute a lot soon, but so far you have not. You're "aware of the search function" but stated that the reason you insisted on everyone posting their own games was that you would "have to do all of the work myself" otherwise. It's about 20 seconds of work per player, that way. Not much more than finding their list within the thread.

it takes less time to check the activity of other players than it does to build a database of their previous games which are current enough to base a meta read upon.

unvote, vote: Herodotus

most likely partner: springlullby
second most likely partner: Porkens

Not to be offering Spring a break here, but it seems to me a lot of conversation has concerned her. (which in a bizarre way doesnt quite count as lurking) I could see the reason for just watching to see how all this plays out between the arguments going on.

[Ectomancer]

@EctoTroll 108-112: So you say you have suspicion of Porkens (and to a lesser degree SpyreX) and are voting tajo. How strong is your suspicion of tajo? stronger than that of Porkens or anyone else?[]quote]

This was already answered in the original statement. You overlooked it. Toajo is worse than Porkens.

[about Artem 97:]

I believe that he was actually just talking about people who just place a vote and nothing else (another topic I have to talk about grrr)

I... don't think so.

We all have opinions

Here's the real rule.

never say you did it to start the game before something else has actually arrived to talk about.

Otherwise, you didnt do anything but waste space.

Sooooo... is Artem scummy, or null, or what for doing basically that?[]quote]

This was entirely referencing my own method of choosing targets and not letting up until we have material. As far as te 3 go, Spyrex is a null, Porkens is +1 scum and Tajo is +2 scum.

-----

[Ectomancer]

I've got new meds. At the dose Im taking, I can barely read, its allfuxxy. I have lot of things to say stating about pagre 7, there are some things that need correctiung and I want to re0inforce/dispute the cases.

[Ectomancer]

I'm in the hospital. Over a week, I'm real bad. I hurt myself

[Ectomancer]

I'm hear! Please say im not replcade!

Cant say much right now because it is taking me 10-20 seconds to type out some worsd. I'll catch up as fast as U can and givr some commrntds sorry qabout the spelling errirs/. im tierd of correcting

[Ectomancer]

I'm hear! Please say im not replcade!

Cant say much right now because it is taking me 10-20 seconds to type out some worsd. I'll catch up as fast as U can and givr some commrntds sorry qabout the spelling errirs/. im tierd of correcting

If this post is any semblance of what you're promising in the future, then I'm sorry, but you need at least temporary replacement.

Scared? Sanity can blur your thinking.

[Ectomancer]

unvote, vote:populartajo

reason: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... opulartajo
he is actively posting in other games, joined a large game, and is actively lurking in this game.

It's about time someone got on this bandwagon.

[Ectomancer]

I'm getting a scummy read off Elmo now. His defense of Artem is too strong for my liking.

I've been playing around with this in my head as well (because it bugs the hell out of me).

I can't fathom that strong of a defense for a scum-buddy*. However I, independently, find Artem to be scummy as all getout. Which, well, bothers me. It is too transparent day 1 to tie yourself so close with minimal gain. Unless Elmo is scum AND Artem is town.

Yet, see Artem's play and I just dont get it.

* This assumes Artem is not one of the classic "must-save" scum roles (see recruiter, etc). If this is the case Elmo doesn't even get to defend themselves and go off the plank tomorrow.

Toss a Godfather into that equation and it might make more sense. Artme doesn't need to be a "must save" role. Elmo simply

wants

a possible investigation tossed his way, and have the 3rd mafiaso (assuming standard role setup) to make the kill in case town has both tracker and cop.

[Ectomancer]

I'd like to see some real content from Ecto.

Prolific is what you all have been. Its hard to catch up, but a couple guesses here. Scum is on one of the big wagons and its probably not a bus.
Scum has already squared up against a town member, and though wants to look "on the case", wont actually push theirs to a lynch to avoid the obvious
"who was involved in lynching town"/

That's vague, but what you get from a skim (and Im not done yet)

[Ectomancer]

Before I forget

unvote

vote Adel

All of the promises of graphs and analysis and what not has become her defensive mechanism to avoid dying day 1. People usually let her ride until Day 2 for her promised Holy Grail of Analytical scum, and to be quite honest, I've rarely found that they help me find scum, and I dont see where Adel's play has improved either. Adel deserves the hardcore pressure cooker.

[Ectomancer]

Ok, since this has become a topic (and partly due to the VLA thread in MD), I felt compelled to make a response. Yes I'm on heavy drugs that if taken at the dose I'm now on will knock your dick in the dirt.
I did quit playing mafia for 2 months and flaked on 4 games at once (still having problems spelling), I did not want to flake on the only one that I helped create.
Someone said I can't believe that I would take the time to make a post here. Back near when I first started, I had to sit with pillows propped to keep me upright so I wouldn't drown from the fluids caused by pneumonia (First time I though I was about to die within a day or two). I actually posted quite a bit there.

I'll say this, though my being tells me not to do it. Ectomancer is my persona nearly everywhere, and I would hate to have to retire him.

So please leave this in thread.

I realize that by saying it, I no longer have control over the information, but I'll say it anyhow. I had pictures, but the doc through it would be detrimental to my situation. So....
Long story short (please don't ask questions about it, I'm not asking for, not do I want any help, I've got it
I took one of those orange box cutters from home depot or something where you just snap off the blade for a new one when the old one gets worn out and dull. I made 134 slashes and words between 2 and 14-15 inches across my chest and stomach and went through 5 of those snap off blades. I got interrupted or there would have been 500-1000 (depends on long the blades last).

So there you go. Mafia is therautic for me, so I do enjot playing, I just wish my damn fingers would remember where the latters on the keyboard are!!

Once again, leave it here please. If you want to meta me, know that I both start and drive games and I hate lurking as a tactic ti wiun,.

[Ectomancer]

Also, I would like that your provide a list with your thought of every player here.

I hate demands like this. Even if I make them.

unvote, vote: Herodotus

he bailed on Atrem, and now is wagoning Tajo. I don't think that either of those players are scum.

If Herodotus is scum, I see Elmo as being his most likely buddy.

Pairings on Day 1 is like the wagon leading the mule.

You are voting someone because they have voted people you don't think are scum. I'm not that medicated.
If you have something you can put together for those 2 people to be town enough to get someone else a vote, I'll give a listen, but I dont know how you could find those cases.

[Ectomancer]

a) I dont really care if you do or you dont. I'm taking my gut feeling in general on what I've seen from you.
b) what does that have to do with being allowed to skate through? See part c for the rest of this answer.
c) I believe that it was actually Springlullaby in a MD discussion (or echoing/agreeing with me) when we discussed players who are allowed to live simply by being prolific. (See your b for reference for your own style)
You simply have a different method of avoiding the Day 1 lynch, which are your charts and your graphs (which you actually usually have to your credit)

Prolific is what you all have been. Its hard to catch up, but a couple guesses here. Scum is on one of the big wagons and its probably not a bus.
Scum has already squared up against a town member, and though wants to look "on the case", wont actually push theirs to a lynch to avoid the obvious
"who was involved in lynching town"/

That's vague, but what you get from a skim (and Im not done yet)

Names, please.

Don't hold your breath there chief. This is an analysis of a snapshot in time (just stating it changes the situation as you know) and as I've stated, it hadn't been easy to catch up. So, instead of just shooting off a one-liner asking others to go back and work, you could be just a bit clearer about exactly what it is you want? Lets see. Do we want those who have been prolific, which wagon has the scum on it,or maybe you want the specific scum. Are you looking for the scum that has already squared up against a town member (or maybe the name of the town member), but wont continue because they want to avoid being the guy drumming up the townie lynch? You want all of the above? Well take a look at the bandwagons that fit that criteria and let me know.

I'll tell you what this is best at. Some players use posts as notes to themselves (or others) in order to refer back to them when some actual concrete evidence arrives.

That post could be considered a filler post by some, but there's ore in there to be mined. I just dont know I'm quite ready to swing the pickaxe at that particular pile.

[Ectomancer]

Hey Spyrex, its been 18 days, was it worth it, or should we have lynched already?

[Ectomancer]

Adel - Scummy with promises of amend, I don't mind being patient a little longer for the delivery, but not too long.

This is exactly the type of drivel I've been referring to!

[Ectomancer]

I fail to see how this could be a genuine opinion that Ecto generated honestly.

I don't understand.

like, it isn't based upon evidence or experience. I think it is a lie.

I don't think that you could argue that I have a lack of experience. Anyhow, you are arguing over the wrong thing. If you do that all the time (promise charts and such and that isn't a lie), then it is a null tell because you do it whether you are town or scum. An argument over whether they work or not is for MD, not the game. So there should be no vote on you on that basis.
I told you I look for motivations over what people say, or even who they are sometimes. Porkens snap agreed and voted Adel even though there were 3 competing wagons at the time. If you have scum buddies in trouble, one way to help them out is spread the towns vote across as many busses as you can, hoping theirs will die.
So I'd like an explanation from Porkens concerning his vote following mine on Adel.

unvote

vote Porkens

[Ectomancer]

People usually let her ride until Day 2 for her promised Holy Grail of Analytical scum

, and to be quite honest, I've rarely found that they help me find scum, and I dont see where Adel's play has improved either. Adel deserves the hardcore pressure cooker.

the portion in bold is nagging me... a) I usually replace into games, b) when I do play in day 1 I am usually confrontational and aggressive, c) I fail to see how this could be a genuine opinion that Ecto generated honestly.

Ecto just went off on a tangent. Bold is what I was talking about.

Name 1 example from your experience where people let me ride until day 2?

Quit nitpicking the damn point. SpringLullably just gave us exactly what I've been talking about. To be fair about the subject, I do the same thing. I find that by being an aggressor (but not a stupid one) early makes me live longer. You just found your own method for doing it and

I'm certain that people in this game know exactly what I mean

, especially if they were commenting in the MD thread (which I conveniently have not located).

[Ectomancer]

Herodotus Drop

Korts: 4
Zorblag: 6

Well hello there.

Mine was very low as well with these two. Probably just not creating waves. I was going to complain about the relative uselessness of these graphs (for me anyhow), but I don't think this is insignificant.

Anyhow, why didst thou point out Hero's mentions on these two? It appears to be a general trend and not just a Hero thing.

So 2 things, we've got Korts and Troll keeping low profiles (or at least low enough that people aren't really talking about them much).
We've got Elmo picking out Hero's mention of 2 players from a field of daisies. Tunnelvision or impatience? Smells dirty.
Spyrex doesn't like long days, but is generating some of these long dull graphing posts. Negative emotion from me, however it is mitigated by the fact that I believe it generated 2 items worthy of note.

Porkens, I've noted that you are still waiting on 2 items from Adel. I don't recall you getting them, and I noticed he latched on to the graph thing. I realize he can't resist them, but still...

unvote

I don't like Elmo and I don't like Korts and I dislike the noise between them without much action.

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer, if you're so worried about people letting Adel slide to D2, why are you doing essentially nothing about it?

50k feet over your head. It was about opportunistic voters (in this case Porkens) should you take the time to read that section. Not meaning to be a jerk here, but I see no emoticon worthy of the attitude.
Porkens is still awaiting Adel's answer to questions he asked previous to my impression that he jumped on spontaneously to my vote on Adel. Therefor, he got an unvote.

Ecto.. Herod is the person I'm most suspicious of, so I was curious to see if there was anyone he was staying away from. He talks about those two

notably

less than anyone apart from you, which is understandable since you've been absent for a bit. But Zorblag has been here all the time, and Korts has been since very early; and I suspect Korts and Zorblag independently, so it's very interesting that he's very quiet on the subject of both of them; there's a very definite reason for me pointing that out. And similar to what I said about tajo, I don't see why it would be tunnelling.

Vi, explain the connection to me slowly?
Herod: Why would you guess that as the plan?

Sorry Elmo, I read the chart wrong anyhow. I hate charts. I do make an effort to see the rationale behind them, but I must admit a failing in this area.

[Ectomancer]

Herod, if the plan is to get you into a dilemma at LYLO, then can you explain the wagon on you? Wouldn't scum like, not want you to get lynched? So is this a town wagon on you that has stalled, or what do you think is going on?

vote Herod

because it seems that only town votes for him...

[Ectomancer]

@Ecto: OK, 'tis cool What do you think of Porkens?

I re-read him and also made a mistake there. He voted the very next post after I did, so I thought, Ahah! But he really was waiting on Adel (have we got that yet Porkens?)

[Ectomancer]

@Ecto:

You congratulated Adel in the game he cited. Here, you're saying that graphs and charts rarely help you find scum. Why does this raise an inconsistency flag for me?

I'm not Adel. It may help him, but it sure as hell doesn't help me. In fact, it allows people to do what I call "muddying the waters" by debating endlessly over these charts. It actually makes it more difficult for me to sort out who is doing it, and who actually is making genuine commentary....and I tend to not read them properly either....

Anyhow, Adel deserved the congratulations. I had already made up my mind that Korts was scum.

[Ectomancer]

Forgot @Artem - if you take a quick look at my lead of the Darkdude lynch in the game you are referencing, you'll see one example of how I scumhunt. It isn't with charts

[Ectomancer]

Well, then you unvoted me because you no longer found me suspicious, not because you didn't want a premature claim. Right?

Wrong. I decided I preferred to have more time to decide about you before someone came along, voted you, and asked for a claim.

Hrm. I had a lengthy answer, but I'll just simply say, NO. Let people do what they are going to do.

Does that change the fact that this behavior is suspect? No.

I missed the part where you explained how using someone's name too many times made me a suspect. Frankly, I don't think you even believe that.

I find this a dubious assertion as well. Has Adel done an analysis on how often good and which type of data comes from the charts and is generally reliable yet?

You keep, in essence, attacking the data. Under the guise of making it more accurate, sure - but pinpoint accuracy wasn't the purpose of it. It was to do one thing and one thing only.

I think attacking the data because of a point you are making utilizing that data is valid. I also am well aware of being able to create charts that can say what you want it to say. (Just pick the right chart/data set) That makes the "It was to do one thing and one thing only" statement up for debate as well.

Do you think the scum are going to even consider NKing me?

Tonight? Ever?

Well, no, but thats because I am thinkin' you be scum.

Still, the day-1 building on you being alive at LYLO is offputting.

I'm hanging my hat on this.

[Ectomancer]

For Real FOS?

Considering ohh, Herod himself, Artem, Ecto, Elmo and you posted almost a whole page without noticing too the "for real" makes little sense.

YOU DON"T VOTE WITHOUT NOTING THE CURRENT VOTECOUNT!

Meh, I did. I thought it was around 4 votes, nowhere near the 7 needed. I only count when its getting close. Still, you think Herod would have noticed. Sometimes if you are scum and know you are going down, its better to say nothing if you are afraid it will give something away or you are wanting specific connection discussions to remain alive.

[Ectomancer]

You do know that Adel was actually 2 separate wagons right? I cranked it up again myself with what ended up being a resultless ploy, and then I ended up on the Hero wagon.
I think it should be delineated because it wasn't a linear wagon. Does that make sense?

[Ectomancer]

If I had a bullet and Hero flips town I'd shoot: Adel
If I had a bullet and Hero flips scum I'd shoot: Adel

[Ectomancer]

Seriously though, if town, I would shoot either Elmo or Tajo, probably tajo for convenient lurking.
If scum, I dont know. Porkens "mistaken" bus wouldnt make sense. Spyrex might have joined late though.

[Ectomancer]

If I had a bullet and Hero flips town I'd shoot: Adel
If I had a bullet and Hero flips scum I'd shoot: Adel

WTF!

Talk about a no-win!

H-Scum: Porkens
H-Town: SpryeX

Charts must die OMGWTFBBQ!!

[Ectomancer]

I've never seen this many people involved in a rapid fire twilight session.

Can we track when the last time people logged in? Like to see if they avoid this? I know this would notify them, but at least it would force them to talk about this if they login and try to dodge it.

[Ectomancer]

It doesn't, really. But I run on a dumber plane than most of you; Adel is on Hero's wagon and Artem isn't.

in the South people call this "slow-talking" -- getting people to underestimate your intelligence so that you can take advantage of their misconception.

In the PNW we call it patronizing.

Phantom Fish

A man was stopped by a game-warden in Northern Algonquin Park recently with two buckets of fish leaving a lake well known for its fishing. The game warden asked the man, "Do you have a license to catch those fish?" The man replied to the game warden, "No, sir. These are my pet fish." "Pet fish?!" the warden replied. "Yes, sir. Every night I take these here fish down to the lake and let them swim around for a while. I whistle and they jump back into their buckets, and I take em home." "That's a bunch of hooey! Fish can't do that!" The man looked at the game warden for a moment, and then said, "Here, I'll show you. It really works." "O.K. I've GOT to see this!" The game warden was curious. The man poured the fish in to the river and stood and waited. After several minutes, the game warden turned to the man and said, "Well?" "Well, what?" the man responded. "When are you going to call them back?" the game warden prompted. "Call who back?" the man asked. "The FISH." "What fish?" the man asked. (Contributed by Frank Worm)

[Ectomancer]

Well alrighty then. G'night scummers

[Ectomancer]

So we have one dead roleblcoker and one vig claim. Hmm. Setting the matter aside for now.

I'm puzzled as to why Pop died.

Anyway, Vi needs more pressure.

Vote Vi

Case in the writing

Haha I was thinking the same thing about you! You've been pretty quiet, you want to set aside a (hard) soft claim and though puzzled about the dead, you don't talk about either of them, not even the one you are puzzled about.
Case in the writing means you're working something up I reckon. Don't take too long.

On Spyrex - events as put together by Elmo and the hints makes sense. This cant be called a pressure claim at all. Puts us in a difficult position towards LYLO, but I have difficulty believing this to be a Spyrex SK gambit. At least my own 1 disastrous attempt at SK would hamper

me

from getting a nowhere near a Vig claim unless I had to.

I'm on page 6. Is there a reason why Ectomancer hadn't been lynched yet?

I dont even recall a vote on me actually. Vi has given some smack talk but not much else and he just voted Adel in 589 (not L-4 though, do votes not reset each day?)

@DGB - how much stock do you place in your meta's and did you read Hero's statements re: Adel before you made these last statements supporting a pro-town Adel based upon meta?

[Ectomancer]

Korts, if scum, replacing because of too many words WITH multiple suspects for the next day in twilight after a town kill makes my teeth itch. I dont get it.

I stirred this roadkill with myself until it was mummified. Knowing Korts I wouldn't

think

he would drop a scum role in that position, but I've had to drop scum roles I was happy about the state of because I was on my way to visit the hospital. Gut says prob-town unless some meta exists that would make it simply null. Can't PM probe him either about it so....

[Ectomancer]

@ Ectomancer - you're all over the place. I can't put my finger on it. You seem somewhat hesitant in your speech patterns. But again it's hard to put into words.

Easiest way to put it into words is with a vote. You never have to actually explain yourself unless pressed (which I would be more than likely to do, but then you wouldn't have to put effort into convincing me that you think I'm scum, just other people).

I put minimal stock in my own metas. They're a starting point.

2nd part was did you read Hero's statement re: Adel before or after talking about your meta. The quote below makes me think you hadnt read it yet.

vote: populartajo

Aside from the lurking, he is buddying up to Elmo, both with his vote and in his stated analysis. His first vote was random, but his second has been in place since page 2, so at the least, he should be feeding the parking meter. Finally, his antagonism toward Adel has been giving me vibes of disingenuousness since it started (which was why I asked Adel about him earlier.)

Oi. That's scummy.

That's Hero (town) and Tajo (town) and Elmo wasn't the one accused of doing the buddying.

[Ectomancer]

God have I ever said how much I adore meta. MMMMmmmMMmmm

Time for some thinking out loud:

If I had a bullet and Hero flips town I'd shoot: Porkens or Ecto
If I had a bullet and Hero flips scum I'd shoot: Korts

Are you ready for assumation bullet time attack? I sure am!

So, I'm operating under the premise that if they are scummy enough to shoot, he'd damn well roleblock them.

Additionally, I have to operate under the premise that we're using some kind of NaR for roles.

So, from this: barring an actual SK or something nutso, Porkens/Ecto could NOT have performed the kill (whichever was targeted, but thats moot).

Thus, we put on our scum hat: you've got to send in a night kill. The mod, hopefully, has said you have to specify WHO is sending the kill (so the roleblocking is actually helpful). You don't necessarily know WHY, but you have to assume the chance of the naughty town roles (Tracker, Roleblocker, etc).

At this point, you'd probably want to send someone to perform the kill that was NOT going to draw said roles. An under the radar.

Both Porkens AND Ecto drew -some- flak throughout the day (from each other, oddly enough as well as others). The only ones, personally, I could see being higher profile would be: Adel & Myself (maaybe Elmo).

So, this makes the gut shriek the kill was performed by one of the lower profile players. Namely the grouping of Zorblag, Korts(DGB), Vi, Spring.

(Yes I realize this is modified by the existance of scum power roles vs goons, but)

Now, for the NK:

Tajo mentioned a few players but the focus of his hunting had a singular target: Adel.

I can't decide if this is an elaborate setup to get Adel mislynched or sooo obvious we go around the WIFOM horn 3 times.

On the other front of this, Tajo mentioned suspicion specifically of two other players: Zorblag and Spring. The zigzag attack to protect themselves for suspicion and setup an Adel mislynch? I can't decide.

In short:

Artem, Herod AND Tajo all being town has just made my brain collapse on itself.

Adel is Shrodingers scum at this point: I am now worrying that is a mislynch setup / obvscum move and every time I look a cat dies.

Zorblag / Spring strike me as highly likely candidates for scum who performed the kill.

Korts, if scum, replacing because of too many words WITH multiple suspects for the next day in twilight after a town kill makes my teeth itch. I dont get it.

This was a big honker of a post, but I agree with I think most of it. Spring seems to me to be playing unlike SL, not sure what that means. The activity has been lacking, but I didn't want to draw too much attention there because I was suspecting maybe an SL PR trying to hide.
Troll has been very neutral in my book in nearly every post. Could have been avoiding controversy on purpose, but who knows but Troll?

Porkens and Ecto both could have been trying to draw fire, and yes Adel, yourself, and Elmo was poking their necks out a bit.
Porkens I don't know much.
My meta on Ecto is that he is an attention whore.
Adel also has always been center ring in games in my experience.
Spyrex has never been scared to talk, and there is the Vig claim anyhow that takes him out of this.
People are really coming out of the woodwork to call Elmo town. Makes me more suspicious of those people than of Elmo.

[Ectomancer]

Ecto: That's interesting. What's different about Spring's play?
DGB: Why Porkens?

Activity is playing a big role. While I've never seen her as a big aggressive player, most of her posts seem to be simply defense posts in response to votes or attacks on her, but she wasn't really going after anyone, making me wonder if she was trying to avoid the limelight. She may have been and could still have a good reason for it, so talk of pressuring her with votes is making me tense a bit, which is why I'd prefer we wait until she presents the case on Vi before thinking about a next move where SL is concerned.

@DGB - Why Porkens and why SL? Where is Zorblag? A welcome post gets troll off list?

[Ectomancer]

<grabs some popcorn>

[Ectomancer]

<grabs some popcorn>

Why?

I'm going to engage Vi in a conversation

*crowd goes wild*

[Ectomancer]

You know, if I were quite a different player with a cat avatar, I'd be bringing up a ball-kicking theory right about now. That'd be a most interesting idea.

So it turns out that when I'm thinking out loud, it helps if I make it clear what I'm referencing in order to avoid funny looks. Bed now.

Artem being dead left us with only 1 other cat avatar that I can see and that is me, so I was wondering what I was looking for, still thought you were looking for something, but now I see MBL with a kitty too, so...

Anyhow, I don't know if it was an overnight kick or early pressure being brought on today on the less-than-involved after our roleblocker turned up dead and the theory arose that there was cover going on and therefore whomever sent in the kill was probably hiding in there somewhere.
It is weird that Spring has a good line going on Vi, but then tells Troll she didn't see it until after the vote? I think that supports your ball-kick idea somewhat. Do something and then find a reason for it after the fact?

[Ectomancer]

@Vi - Why wasn't it a good idea to push the wagon when myself and Porkens were pressuring Adel? (I know I already said why it wasn't, but was that your reason back then?)
Was there anything you considered that might be more important than pressuring Adel (again) this early in Day 2 given events and a claim?

[Ectomancer]

The fact that you started said wagon also put me off.

Ok, this has gotten old, so let's look back at your Ecto post (despite you lacking the gumption to back it with a vote)

Vi: How has Ecto read as 'not kosher'?

Here's the real rule.

never say you did it to start the game before something else has actually arrived to talk about. Otherwise, you didnt do anything but waste space.

Sooooo... is Artem scummy, or null, or what for doing basically that?

This was entirely referencing my own method of choosing targets and not letting up until we have material. As far as te 3 go, Spyrex is a null, Porkens is +1 scum and Tajo is +2 scum.

(I'm pretty sure someone said "this has nothing to do with Artem", but I can't find that post - anyway, this has nothing to do with Artem)

Exactly, if you read the early game, it was clear that it was Ecto who made 2 cases right off the bat against players (I know you love competing wagons Adel). Makes it real clear what I was talking about here, and that was my refusal to back off until we had game material to move on. (DGB apparently didn't dig my moves as of page 6)
This is me explaining how useless it is to try to kick off a game with a reason, but use the "it was just to start the game" excuse

before

you've actually got content beyond the fact that you attacked somebody.
Objectified, it could also be slight buddying to Spyrex and placeholder cases against Porkens and Tajo for an Ectoscum.

Not to be offering Spring a break here, but it seems to me a lot of conversation has concerned her. (which in a bizarre way doesnt quite count as lurking) I could see the reason for just watching to see how all this plays out between the arguments going on.

I haven't seen s-lullaby's name being tossed about much while reading. I don't buy it.

Scared? Sanity can blur your thinking.

"Scared" isn't the word I'm thinking of.

Or maybe the fact that you only mentioned SL 3 times has you biased towards the thought that she wasn't discussed, and my 35 times (plus a few others) indicates that she was.

(This is actually null for both of us in my eyes. Your own experience and actions will bias your beliefs)

Prolific is what you all have been. Its hard to catch up, but a couple guesses here. Scum is on one of the big wagons and its probably not a bus.
Scum has already squared up against a town member, and though wants to look "on the case", wont actually push theirs to a lynch to avoid the obvious
"who was involved in lynching town"/

That's vague, but what you get from a skim (and Im not done yet)

Names, please.

Don't hold your breath there chief. This is an analysis of a snapshot in time (just stating it changes the situation as you know) and as I've stated, it hadn't been easy to catch up. So, instead of just shooting off a one-liner asking others to go back and work, you could be just a bit clearer about exactly what it is you want? Lets see. Do we want those who have been prolific, which wagon has the scum on it,or maybe you want the specific scum. Are you looking for the scum that has already squared up against a town member (or maybe the name of the town member), but wont continue because they want to avoid being the guy drumming up the townie lynch? You want all of the above? Well take a look at the bandwagons that fit that criteria and let me know.

I'll tell you what this is best at. Some players use posts as notes to themselves (or others) in order to refer back to them when some actual concrete evidence arrives.

That post could be considered a filler post by some, but there's ore in there to be mined. I just dont know I'm quite ready to swing the pickaxe at that particular pile.

This is the first time I've ever seen a literal filibuster in Mafia. Condensed version:

"I said something, but I don't know what I said and I don't feel like finding out."

This was an attempt at a catch-up post. I appreciate that you weren't giving the V/LA guy a break, but I at least make some minor effort here. Funny thing about this one is that, as I said, placeholder posts exist by players to remind them to look at something. Here's the part that caught my eye looking at your play surrounding Adel:

Scum has already squared up against a town member, and though wants to look "on the case", wont actually push theirs to a lynch to avoid the obvious
"who was involved in lynching town"

That would put you and your pressure on Adel so close as to almost match should we find an Adeltown. You voted, got off, bandwagon started again, but you couldn't jump back on again if you wanted to avoid looking opportunistic. Soon as Day 2 starts, you're back on again right away despite other developments that also deserve discussion. Why do you think I'm questioning your motivations?
If you are trying to play that game, you got overeager in my eyes where the trying to look "on the case" is concerned. When asked about other items than Adel your response was

such as?

IIRC.
Seriously, I think a tunnel on Adel and her promised response is premature at this point in the day don't you think?
Is it your honest assessment that we need to pressure Adel into giving "the result" now?

Pre-EBWOP - I see Spyrex has posted while I was compiling this post. I had planned to play your game anyhow Vi and spike your punch while not voting for you and simultaneously vote Adel to see if you would hop off simply because I'm on the wagon. Spyrex adding to the Adel wagon doesn't ruin the idea entirely, but I don't think an extra vote on Adel is necessary at this point now.

Please answer for me Vi (not with "such as?"), is there not any topic that could have been more pressing than Adel's "revelation"? You make me think that you are avoiding something in the lynch/kill patterns or Spyrex's claim by going back to something we could get to at anytime today, and that you purposely avoided late yesterday by not joining the Adel wagon with Porkens and myself.
If you do have something, please detail why it is less important than Adel's dangling carrot?

Reason Spyrex doesn't get the same rundown as Vi is because #1 - He very well wouldn't talk about his own claim and #2 - He added more content to the case.

[Ectomancer]

@Adel - it really is time and just posting updated charts won't do...

[Ectomancer]

@Porkens - Are you also getting the creepy feeling that we are being setup for an either/or type of lynch/vig/SK at some point? Don't get me wrong, you don't give me warm fuzzies, but my hair is raised on my arms watching this. It went from us 'drawing fire' for whomever did the NK last night, to Spyrex accusing Adel of (falsely) 'clearing' us.

Kitty smells fish.

[Ectomancer]

You might be a tougher nut to crack than some, but Vig/SK's can be 'forced to play along' with the 'town's' wishes. You could very well have your own reasons for playing along whichever you are. I know what Adel said, but I am also aware of the discussion section where Porkens and I were basically singled out as trying to draw fire to cover the NK last night even though there were at least 3 other people who could have been included (and were, but most assuredly separately from the 2 of us)
Adel also stated those assumptions as such (which have certainly not been established as fact at all). #2 is probable, but #1, #3, and #4 are hardly such and having you and Adel pattering along at each other building this pyramid of assumptions into something even close to a given and myself and Porkens being constantly paired is suspicious as hell.

[Ectomancer]

3.) On the flipside, Tajo had minimal chance for a doctor protect versus higher profile players / watcher protection.

Occam's razor here.

tajo wasn't a particularly threatening scum hunter in this game. When I was scum against him in WIH2, he lived a very long time, until he was lynched.

It's the sort of NK Adel might cook up to challenge herself, eliminating the non-threats first, haha.

Reconsidering my earlier town tone read, I'd be willing to vote her. I should look at her closely. I'll try tonight.

But only if he is from Australia you see, for then, but of course...

I thought you didn't put much stock into meta's, that they were a starting point. Now you look ready to vote for your meta, only a different way because you thought of a new

unless

.

It's the sort of NK Adel might cook up to challenge herself, eliminating the non-threats first, haha.

This is a weird 3rd person ego-stroking and one not necessarily rooted in fact. How are your scum hunting skills for example? Mine are almost perfectly average by the numbers. As town I'm only 9 of 16 wins and of those 6 when I lived to endgame, we lost half the time. (recalling numbers from an MD thread, didn't go back and look again)

In short, you are located in WIFOM central and even what you are saying there doesn't necessarily match reality.

Do you think you are more of a gut read, or a logical scum hunter? I ask because your gut seems to be flip-flopping and your logic is lacking. An improvement either way would be fab.

[Ectomancer]

I'm sorry, what don't you follow?
Are you that naive, now, really.

I don't understand what you're referring to by "coaching". I've only seen the term used maybe twice and the quote you gave doesn't seem to match up. No comment about naivete

I mean coaching defined as trying to influence a buddy's play.
i.e. You commenting on Adel 'pulling strings' followed by 'I don't think it's necessary'.

The comment in itself kinda don't fit in your scenario of yourself trying to determine Adel's alignment between the lines. Giving hints as to how you think she should act kinda defeat the purpose of observation, no?

I'm trying to follow this part. Are you saying Vi is coaching Adel to not pull strings, or Vi is coaching a partner to let Adel pull the strings she is tugging, or, not or what? I'm not quite sure where you are standing exactly. Please clarify.

Why did you decide to kill last night? Why didn't you decide not to kill last night?

Because I thought he was scum? Why the hell wouldn't I kill?

Exactly

@Spyrex - I can see where there were different tacts, but my hackles were raised, and at least Troll seemed to get a similiar impression. It was something I wanted nipped in the bud.

[Ectomancer]

On another note, Troll thinks this was a quote Vi was looking for in post 593.

Sooooo... is Artem scummy, or null, or what for doing basically that?

This was entirely referencing my own method of choosing targets and not letting up until we have material. As far as te 3 go, Spyrex is a null, Porkens is +1 scum and Tajo is +2 scum.

I realize you're on meds (hope you get better, by the way) but why no mention of Artem, even though it is him the original question was about?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

This one continuing to pop up is chafing. Without going to quote pyramids, I believe I was giving my own defense for sticking to my guns on my early case(s). Vi asked me if Artem was scummy for doing that, which baffles me because as I explained,

I

was talking about

me

, and it is easily read in this game where I was doing this, and in fact DGB mentioned it about me when replacing in to the game. Where was I talking about Artem?
If Vi is trying to say that Artem tried an opening case, but then backed off without getting any material, then I guess I missed it (and you could have been clearer, like quoting it) and wants to know whether it is scummy or null? The answer is exactly the same as the argument I made! If you don't stick with it, you

fail

at game starting and if you aren't going to stick with your weak opening case and just give up an "I was trying to start the game", all you did was waste time!
Was this some kind of an attempt at a reverse verbal trap by you Vi? Like if I said he was scummy for dropping it, I was somehow trying to say I was pro-town for sticking to my guns?

Weird and even weirder constantly necroing it.

An ability to start games is alignment neutral. I happen to think I'm good at it, but along with it goes dealing with the pressure from doing it. If you can't, don't bother with a weak attempt followed by an "I was just trying to start the game"...grrr

[Ectomancer]

vote Adel

Lynching a claimed Vig/SK on D2 is

my

definition of suboptimal play. An SK without scum dead

plays in an anti-scum manner

. You don't lynch until you have at least 1 scum dead, and even then you hope scum will either NK them, or expose themselves by pushing a case against an SK if they are not NK'able.

@Spyrex - wtf? There is no reason you should have let yourself be goaded into that. A lack of 2 NK's would have made me believe a lot more in the Vig claim (roleblocker is dead). At least you would possibly have gotten targeted for a kill, but now you just give up that you are essentially a VT after last night?

[Ectomancer]

He can, but the only way I can think of is if he is a GF with a Watcher buddy who could do a head count, realize there is an SK out there, and claim SK in order to draw the target tonight, find the 1 player that they do have to find, and then count on the Watcher to see them through, (a serious gambit) unless the GF is non-NK'able, which means the SK might be non-NK'able as well.
In that case, I would expect the SK to attempt to get the Spyrex lynched, even ignoring optimal play in order to do it. In that case...are you the SK?

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP: Claim Vig, not SK. The SK would realize the unlikelyhood of a real Vig since there weren't 3 kills last night.

[Ectomancer]

Has extra 1-shot NK goons been added into "normal roles"?
Who made the 2nd kill without this extra 1 shot by mafia?

Why aren't you willing to wait for SpyreX to explain why he thought it was a good idea to waste his kill N1?

Asks the person who expected to be killed N1.

Perhaps I am more willing to accept the answer of someone who behaved (or claims to have behaved) in a manner that I myself would. As Vig, I'm on the "always kill" side of things, unless you know you are in or possibly near LYLO. Lynches are mafia-influenced by definition. My Vig kill is not.

[Ectomancer]

btw

I'm at lynch -2

-- and Porkens (Mr. "I always hammer" and member of "Bad at Mafia") has posted exactly once during this day.

Vi, SpyreX and Ecto are all voting for me, and they were all in on Hero's lynch as well.

This should be raising flags for the rest of y'all.

I know. You can also toss in that I've been setting up an either/or lynch on Adel/Spyrex.

[Ectomancer]

Thought I would topic watch tonight so I could ride this to an edge. Ended up taking a sedative instead, so I cant watch for the QL.

unvote

until tomorrow or Monday.
Saw my name a couple times briefly, will look at what was said then

[Ectomancer]

The speed of this Adel wagon scares me. Considering yesterday, could we get 'em away from L-1?

Adel isn't at L-1.

I jumped off, it should be L-2 right now.

I yield to your point about what is considered to be

normal

Adel.

I give the probability of a Spyrex gambit to be very low. I have to make too many assumptions, however, yes Vi, Spyrex dropping the "I'm only 1-shot" both complicates the issue (where did that kill come from if not Spyrex, and would he have had an extra as scum), and also makes Spyrex

less

believable because, to paraphrase his words, "He's a Walnut, very tough to crack", which makes him crumbling to Adel and giving up this 1-shot information (that should have gone to his death) not very believable to me.

I don't trust Porkens much at this point either. He tried to get an L-1 within 16 minutes of my unvote, did the "oops did I hammer?" in a similiar manner yesterday, admitted to only skimming before placing his vote today,

and

this weird Ecto/Porkens pairing is coming from

somewhere

. My initial reaction was to protect

both

of us, assuming that scum was trying a false pairing between 2 town members. You people play meta a lot though, and it makes me now wonder if I don't have one that scum is deciding to F%$* with. I can't let it hamper my movements though.
Porkens moves yesterday

and

today surrounding the end day have my "Ahah! Scum!" going off big time. Spyrex can wait regardless of how much we twist possibilities to meet our idea of what might be happening. Adel I wouldn't mind lynching, but if the SpyrexScum ideas (even if remote) are real, I'm hesitant to lynch there either. With only a roleblocker and a (claimed) 1-shot Vig to date, there may yet be a way to cut through that knot.

vote Porkens

P.S. - I actually did notice last night that I was pairing Adel/Spyrex for lynch. Porkens jumped right on top of that. At the time, I was playing out rope, but I'm having difficulty with the question myself (which makes Porkens no less scum btw).
Is there a possibility of Spyrex and Adel to both be town? With missing information, my answer can only get to "probably". I'm interested in hearing from someone who has a more definitive answer, and since Porkens was going for the QL yet again, I'd like that question to be addressed by him for certain.

[Ectomancer]

Adel, why would you vote Spyrex before Porkens?

This.

[Ectomancer]

Wait, am I going nuts? Are you passing the last 3-4 pages off as a gambit?

No, I think that marking an L-2 vote you made, being involved in a quick lynch yesterday without an L-x comment, then another uncommented vote today (16 minutes after I made my unvote) that would have been L-1 is what makes you nuts if you think you can allow a circus to distract from it.
You were clearly in a hurry, and in fact I believe you were in the middle of a re-read, saw votes accumulating, and didn't even wait until finishing more than a skim in order to get your vote on quickly.
I do not believe that you had even gotten to my unvote. The coincidence of Adel being on at the same time is what gave you the real stumble because he forced you to admit during that window of time that you were reading along, didn't absorb much, but voted anyhow.

On Spyrex and Adel - stated it earlier (and it was very slightly hinted at by someone else), but I think that knot has a solution, just not a 'lynch one of them today' resolution.

LYLO at this juncture is maybe in the realm of possibilities given a precise alignment of roles and stars and mislynch/poor kill choices, but I am going to say that I think that likelyhood to be remote enough to ignore as a factor in lynch decision today.

@Troll - I agree that you seem self-centered. My take on you is that you have been non-committal for the most part during the game. I'm sure you've taken a position before this, but at least in 825 you are taking a position. Prior to that you seemed interested in what other people though of you while things were going on all around. I did finally get that you were trying to establish the point in order to check for the validity of a statement placing you as pro-town along with Elmo.

Much more to talk about, but Im going back to work in the morning and so I'm off to bed. Probably wont be able to do much until tomorrow night.

[Ectomancer]

It also be the case that Troll has been playing a piss poor game for the most part.

You've said this a couple times.. why do you think that is? And what's 'poor' about it specifically? I guess this is an unenviable position to be in, but you put it out there.

Troll suspects that Troll's reasons for saying this be similar to the reasons that Elmo has taken issue with Troll's play. Troll has failed to get traction with the game (possibly until recently, we'll have to see what happens from here) and has been drifting without being much of a force for anything. Like Troll said earlier, Troll has a couple ideas on why this might be the case but Troll would prefer to discuss them after the game.

As for the position, Troll has replaced into games in worse positions than this and at least this time it be Troll who was making the bed Troll now gets to sleep in. Troll will live with it. Well, unless of course Troll gets killed.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Less questioning and self-deprecation and more opinion and evaluation please.

[Ectomancer]

To be clear, these are the types of questions that look like 'busy work'.

I'm not having near the problem with understanding the position of these 2 players as I am with Troll.

What does DrippingGoofball's opinion on Vi be anyhow?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

What does SpyreX think of Elmo?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Ectomancer]

Ohh Zor you were looking a bit too deep at the reasons:

All three of you, DGB and Ecto just went "lol, gambit? Sweet."

No, I went "uh-oooh...arhghwiofh," drooled on my keyboard and poked an eye out.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

A different perspective indeed.

I don't see what Adel is up to. But I'm not going to lynch Adel for the same reason you've been complaining that he is doing to you and that is voting for sub-optimal play. You don't lynch a claimed Vig on day 2, there is no need in general, even if an SK.
Adel is clearly experienced enough to know that. Why would it surprise me for him to say gambit and admit it is not optimal play and he was looking for leapers?

Porkens on the other hand has been all about the opportunity, both today and yesterday. Look at the time stamp when Porkens voted and how scant amount of time was in between that vote and my unvote. I'm not even certain if he even knew he would be only L-1 on that and not the hammer.

[Ectomancer]

@Troll - Trolls line of thinking was something I could only guess at. I had not much to guess at for your motivations for your words. Your stated ones seem sound though.

[Ectomancer]

<In his quiet voice>

I'm the biggest asshole here and I can be nice. Please keep the personal attacks to a minimum. I don't know what the deal is but it isn't necessary.

[Ectomancer]

Guys. Go back and look at Porkens' first post where he joked about doing something that looks scummy (third vote on a wagon without reasoning) for the purposes of getting reactions. Now try and tell me with a straight face that he doesn't understand why Adel might gambit similarly.

You're not even examining the possibility. There's no doubt, no consideration, just OMG SCUM FULL STEAM AHEAD.

D-FENCE chug chug D-FEnCE

Deflection? You're using the "water off a duck's back" defense yourself...

[Ectomancer]

[/quote]

Why does Ectomancer make the list?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I'm just getting bad vibes from ecto, again.

Gee, I wonder why

"Water off a duck's back" defense means you just let an attack slide right off of you by ignoring it.

The speed of this Adel wagon scares me. Considering yesterday, could we get 'em away from L-1?

Adel isn't at L-1.

I jumped off, it should be L-2 right now.

I yield to your point about what is considered to be

normal

Adel.

I give the probability of a Spyrex gambit to be very low. I have to make too many assumptions, however, yes Vi, Spyrex dropping the "I'm only 1-shot" both complicates the issue (where did that kill come from if not Spyrex, and would he have had an extra as scum), and also makes Spyrex

less

believable because, to paraphrase his words, "He's a Walnut, very tough to crack", which makes him crumbling to Adel and giving up this 1-shot information (that should have gone to his death) not very believable to me.

I don't trust Porkens much at this point either. He tried to get an L-1 within 16 minutes of my unvote, did the "oops did I hammer?" in a similiar manner yesterday, admitted to only skimming before placing his vote today,

and

this weird Ecto/Porkens pairing is coming from

somewhere

. My initial reaction was to protect

both

of us, assuming that scum was trying a false pairing between 2 town members. You people play meta a lot though, and it makes me now wonder if I don't have one that scum is deciding to F%$* with. I can't let it hamper my movements though.
Porkens moves yesterday

and

today surrounding the end day have my "Ahah! Scum!" going off big time. Spyrex can wait regardless of how much we twist possibilities to meet our idea of what might be happening. Adel I wouldn't mind lynching, but if the SpyrexScum ideas (even if remote) are real, I'm hesitant to lynch there either. With only a roleblocker and a (claimed) 1-shot Vig to date, there may yet be a way to cut through that knot.

vote Porkens

P.S. - I actually did notice last night that I was pairing Adel/Spyrex for lynch. Porkens jumped right on top of that. At the time, I was playing out rope, but I'm having difficulty with the question myself (which makes Porkens no less scum btw).
Is there a possibility of Spyrex and Adel to both be town? With missing information, my answer can only get to "probably". I'm interested in hearing from someone who has a more definitive answer, and since Porkens was going for the QL yet again, I'd like that question to be addressed by him for certain.

Wait, am I going nuts? Are you passing the last 3-4 pages off as a gambit?

No, I think that marking an L-2 vote you made, being involved in a quick lynch yesterday without an L-x comment, then another uncommented vote today (16 minutes after I made my unvote) that would have been L-1 is what makes you nuts if you think you can allow a circus to distract from it.
You were clearly in a hurry, and in fact I believe you were in the middle of a re-read, saw votes accumulating, and didn't even wait until finishing more than a skim in order to get your vote on quickly.
I do not believe that you had even gotten to my unvote. The coincidence of Adel being on at the same time is what gave you the real stumble because he forced you to admit during that window of time that you were reading along, didn't absorb much, but voted anyhow.

Porkens on the other hand has been all about the opportunity, both today and yesterday. Look at the time stamp when Porkens voted and how scant amount of time was in between that vote and my unvote. I'm not even certain if he even knew he would be only L-1 on that and not the hammer.

Guys. Go back and look at Porkens' first post where he joked about doing something that looks scummy (third vote on a wagon without reasoning) for the purposes of getting reactions. Now try and tell me with a straight face that he doesn't understand why Adel might gambit similarly.

You're not even examining the possibility. There's no doubt, no consideration, just OMG SCUM FULL STEAM AHEAD.

D-FENCE chug chug D-FEnCE

Deflection? You're using the "water off a duck's back" defense yourself...

[Ectomancer]

Adel is clearly experienced enough to know that. Why would it surprise me for him to say gambit and admit it is not optimal play and he was looking for leapers?

Then what IS it scummy for Adel to do?
(...)

^This question can also be answered by Elmo^

I want answers to this.

Also, waiting for DGb's response to Elmo 911.

It's all about guessing the motivation of a player and it doesn't matter who it is. I needn't have played with an erratic townie before not to lynch them for being erratic. People get lynched constantly for things that are either playstyle or skill related when neither are alignment related. When the scum motivation no longer has a sufficient offsetting town motivation (along with other game state related issues), then you have the green light to lynch.

P.S. - you don't necessarily have to understand the town motivation until, once again, game state dictates you must make a move regarding that player.

[Ectomancer]

Adel is clearly experienced enough to know that. Why would it surprise me for him to say gambit and admit it is not optimal play and he was looking for leapers?

Then what IS it scummy for Adel to do?
(...)

^This question can also be answered by Elmo^

I want answers to this.

Also, waiting for DGb's response to Elmo 911.

[I'll know it when I see it]

Abbreviated without loss of info?

If it were any other way I doubt mafia would be as fun. No, there is no magic formula. I try to rely on my experience with people and this game.

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP: by 'experience with people' I literally mean the 40 years I've spent with this species.

[Ectomancer]

Two things:

Adel has been at L-1 for some time before this soft claim. I'm not going to believe for a second that scumAdel hasn't had MORE than enough time to fabricate a fake claim. Acting as though waiting on town to compel a full claim is scum delaying for time to make one up and adds another stone to the grave completely ignores the amount of time he's been under pressure. He's either got the role, or has had it planned for long before he dropped that soft claim.

I don't know what to think of this...at all. I'm in the same situation with Adel as I usually am, I have no clue what his alignment is, nor any real clue as to what he is about. I've got 2 players making obvTown Adel (1 prior to death) statements, and 2 or 3 players making obvScum Adel comments with the 2 players I consider to be either the most level headed (or most non-committal) in the middle along with myself and its not moving. Something has to tip this thing.

I'm calling for a full claim, including actions if you don't mind. I figure you probably would have worked out that already if fake claiming, but then again, maybe you haven't.

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer:

Scummy independantly of Adel's alignment:
- namedropping me needlessy and reading a lot into my possible motive = buddying ->fits meta (see grimmafia).
- filler posts during Adel wagon = laying low.
- scum due to vote on Porkens whom I see as easy target.

Go ahead and quote the examples of namedropping (you?) needlessly. I believe I read alot into everyone's possible motives so if you can point out where I'm doing that to you and not others that would be nice.
Filler posts? I've put quite a lot of effort with what I've got going on in RL. (You're welcome to meta Ecto just bought a house and took a 2 month haitus because of it, not to mention my other issues)
Why do you not point out the same thing about Porkens re: OT to DGB and his general avoidance of answering for, like, anything at all? Did you not understand what the "water off a ducks back" defense meant and that you are happy to actively defend him, allowing him to do it?
How is Porkens an 'easier' target than Adel? Until Adel jumped on, Porkens has been a case that I've tried time and again to bring into the discussion, but it has been ignored repeatedly. From my end, it has been far from an "easy target".
Why do you feel it ok to press Adel to 'explain himself", but you don't feel the need to press Porkens, at all? I absolutely want you to answer all for the Porkens questions seeing as this attack on me is the closest thing to defense of Porkens that I've seen.
Why do so many of you hold such strong opinions one way or another re: Adel? I don't know how many times I've read you people saying "Adel is town" or "Adel is scum" or "I'm never going to vote Adel", or "I'm voting Adel and that's my last post for the day" (you came back by the way)
That makes no sense to me at all. Clearly some of you are making statements that are not backed by facts, or are backed by facts that the town does not know. I seriously doubt that all of you that have expressed such strong opinions have a valid reason to do so. The only thing I

do

know where those people are concerned is that I know the alignment of one of them, and he was town,

but not an investigative role and not a mason

.
That tells me that at least some people are talking out of their asses or have scum motivations. You see where that has me looking though don't you? At

you

people, not Adel. Problem is, "you people" does not give me Player X and I think we probably don't have the luxury of an informational lynch even if we had a clear idea of who to go after dependent upon Adel's alignment.

In point of fact, I'm still waiting on that one post summarizing your view on Adel and I sure as hell hope that this little bit of gaming the mod isn't it.
While you're busy defending Porkens as an easy target, maybe you could give his view on Adel for him as well seeing as his actual arguments don't exist? (neither today nor yesterday) and you don't seem to care if he ever explains himself? Maybe you could explain

yourself

where that is concerned, because my recollection says that your vote is on Adel for not explaining...

Adel:

I'm not buying it and am prepared to lynch. Town roleblocker+1 shot vig + doc, even one shot in a normal setup=like hell.

[Ectomancer]

Don't worry about it Spring. I found what you were probably talking about. The news isn't good for you. I'm sure you didn't mean to recall this to my attention, but you certainly did.

c) I believe that it was actually Springlullaby in a MD discussion (or echoing/agreeing with me) when we discussed players who are allowed to live simply by being prolific. (See your b for reference for your own style)
You simply have a different method of avoiding the Day 1 lynch, which are your charts and your graphs (which you actually usually have to your credit)

You were name dropped here for meta purposes. You certainly know that you were involved in the MD discussion concerning activity and life expectancy. Note that this entire paragraph

is me pressuring Adel to spill his guts

and attempting to drag others into pressuring him as well when game state gave us all the leeway we needed (ie 3 townies weren't dead)

Where were you? Why the vehemence today if the reason wasn't good enough when I brought this up??

Adel - Scummy with promises of amend, I don't mind being patient a little longer for the delivery, but not too long.

This is exactly the type of drivel I've been referring to!

Oh, there you are....giving Adel an excuse! WTF??

People usually let her ride until Day 2 for her promised Holy Grail of Analytical scum

, and to be quite honest, I've rarely found that they help me find scum, and I dont see where Adel's play has improved either. Adel deserves the hardcore pressure cooker.

the portion in bold is nagging me... a) I usually replace into games, b) when I do play in day 1 I am usually confrontational and aggressive, c) I fail to see how this could be a genuine opinion that Ecto generated honestly.

Ecto just went off on a tangent. Bold is what I was talking about.

Name 1 example from your experience where people let me ride until day 2?

Quit nitpicking the damn point. SpringLullably just gave us exactly what I've been talking about. To be fair about the subject, I do the same thing. I find that by being an aggressor (but not a stupid one) early makes me live longer. You just found your own method for doing it and

I'm certain that people in this game know exactly what I mean

, especially if they were commenting in the MD thread (which I conveniently have not located).

Here's your name again, invoked because you excused Adel's behavior. Now you are balls out for Adel, and giving Porkens the free pass? Your actions don't mesh Spring.

[Ectomancer]

I dont need time to think. I'll lynch Porkens or Spring.

I'd like the rest of you in this little proposed equation to rapid fire off 2 choices as well and we can debate about whether it was wise later.

[Ectomancer]

@Troll - DGB is in those groups making absolute statements. She falls in the "Adel is town!" camp. She posts in one liners for the most part making getting a feel for the playstyle take a bit longer. Replacement meta has very minor plus town points. One of those players who needs to better explain where they are deriving their conclusions from. On the Porkens bussing town Adel question, doesn't make much sense does it? She came in proclaiming Adel town so...where was the time ever to consider a bus by scum Porkens on a scum Adel?

If Porkens is a Cop and Spring is the investigated town member, how is it that Spring was defending Porkens? Why is Porkens jumping on with unexplained reasons on non-investigated players? Involved in a quicklynch? Keeping an uninvestigated player at L-1 for so long? What?

[Ectomancer]

I agree that is a lot of claims along with the 1 confirmed dead power role, but I don't know if I agree that the

town

has exhausted theirs. That of course would postulate at least a couple scum claims already, but there you are.

[Ectomancer]

Lynch Spring and test the claim as far as it can be. I'm putting my bet on scum partners so makes it easy for me.

unvote; vote Spring

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer, if Porkens no be a sane cop that lynch no establishes the claim at all and that many town power roles with a sane cop be unreasonable to expect. Right now Troll be inclined to lynch DrippingGoofball and seeing how the night kills play out or Adel to see if the cop claim be true. That do be a change from what Troll has said before but the situation has changed. Troll's first choice be a mass claim and, barring a counter claim of some power role, a DrippingGoofball lynch as Troll has more reason to think she be scum than anyone else at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Based upon the 'mistaken' bus on town Adel statement alone or is there more?

Leaving Adel alive would certainly put a fake claiming scum in a bind wouldn't it? Having only claimed a 1-shot, maybe he could try saying he was playing chicken with scum and lost if the cop dies, but seriously, he would be the lynch tomorrow if that happened.

[Ectomancer]

Im a busy bee, but I did skim through. I'll try to wade through the wall later tonight or tomorrow. The highlights:

You found the MD discussion. Why in the hell are you acting like what I said was "nebulous" then? That discussion was MORE than relevant to what was going on, and your name was dropped as my lazy way of having the gist of the topic backed without me having to dig through to find it. Seriously, you REALLY believe that MD topic had NOTHING to do with what was happening in game when I brought it up? You STILL dont see the reasoning?

You are baffled as to how you were giving Adel an excuse to keep stalling? How about by saying you were willing to keep waiting? wtf?

Let's see, the other thing you brought up was that you were burned by me as mafia once, so...you're tunneled on what you think is a meta. Well, we can't argue with meta now can we Thing is, people

were

talking about you alot and yet you weren't really stirring things up. How was that ball managing to roll on its own? (Something I need to go back and look at again :reminder:)

The 3rd thing I see (and this really hitches) is that you are now full bore acting as though Porkens is confirmed and continuing to actively defend him. Because he said you were innocent? Please! Where did your town objectivity go Spring? I know you aren't inexperienced enough to think that another player saying you are innocent in no way confirms that player. Why do you act as though he is? HE investigated YOU (allegedly), so why is it that YOU were defending HIM both prior to and after his claim?

[Ectomancer]

Why do so many of you hold such strong opinions one way or another re: Adel? I don't know how many times I've read you people saying "Adel is town" or "Adel is scum" or "I'm never going to vote Adel", or "I'm voting Adel and that's my last post for the day" (you came back by the way)
That makes no sense to me at all. Clearly some of you are making statements that are not backed by facts, or are backed by facts that the town does not know. I seriously doubt that all of you that have expressed such strong opinions have a valid reason to do so. The only thing I

do

know where those people are concerned is that I know the alignment of one of them, and he was town,

but not an investigative role and not a mason

That tells me that at least some people are talking out of their asses or have scum motivations. You see where that has me looking though don't you? At

you

people, not Adel. Problem is, "you people" does not give me Player X and I think we probably don't have the luxury of an informational lynch even if we had a clear idea of who to go after dependent upon Adel's alignment.

.

Are you breadcrumbing cop there, if so counterclaim now.

I'm not going to trust you with something like this because you breadcrumbed cop by asking cop not to counterclaim in grimmafia as scum also.

Are you rolefishing here? Because if you are, I have not yet seen you respond to Troll's request for a Mass Claim. I'd like you to respond to Troll's question directly, like now.

Why is this important? Because of the massive stretch you had to take this statement to come out with some kind of breadcrumb. Am I breadcrumbing? I think breadcrumbs are stupid. They don't prove anything except maybe that you thought ahead. That's the best you get for the good part, and the

bad

part is that scum is just as likely, if not more to be looking for and find them (and for some whacked out reason this game people think that picking up on a breadcrumb on an unproven claim is townie? What?)

Now, let's go back to your stretch:

I seriously doubt that all of you that have expressed such strong opinions have a valid reason to do so. The only thing I

do

know where those people are concerned is that I know the alignment of one of them, and he was town,

but not an investigative role and not a mason

This. Plainly stating that none of you that have made such absolute opinions on Adel have given a valid reason for it, and the only person I know for a fact was town and stated that "Adel is town" was in fact

not

an investigative role or a mason and so was talking out of his ass. That still leaves a butt load of you making such absolute statements about Adel. Now one of you has claimed Cop, but

he

didn't claim to have investigated Adel either, yet made the "Adel is obvscum" statement.

Where are these assertions coming from?

Can you explain where you get a breadcrumb out of that?

@Adel - Vi has been fairly consistent, asking questions, taking stances and hasn't done anything that I've seen as suspect. He recognized early in the game my style of RVS and as a result didn't pile on to or fuel an Ecto wagon. (In fact I think it never got going in part due to his comment concerning a game I had to drop that he replaced into) He's not on my radar. This latest wagon formed on Vi leaves me with the same reaction as the other wagons. That all you got?

@Gurgi - That wagon sat there for a long time. There really was only 2-3 players ( Elmo, and myself + possibly Troll) that could have hammered and remained consistent with previously stated opinions. Is there someone else I missed? DGB had a vote, but was on the "Adel is town" side. I would look for a scum partner there if Adel were to flip scum. If Adel is town, who knows? I would tend to think that all 3 of us would be town, but I also recognize that scum can dig in and refuse to lynch a townie simply in order to not be on that wagon. (Which by the way Adel, is why I think your breaking up a town wagon on day 1 doesn't mean a thing)

@Elmo - after Adel came off the lynching block, you spent a couple or more posts making sure we know that you could still possibly see Adel as scum, just that you hadn't seen the reason to lynch. Why was it so important for you at the time to ensure that point was established?

Posting an example:

I don't know who to vote for, and to be blunt, I worry about what happens in the future if Adel is scum and we don't lynch her today. But I can't really justify an Adel vote to myself other than "I think those guys are probably town and I'm going to sheep now". Which would make me feel better, but I hate other people doing it.

[Ectomancer]

@Spring - I posted in caps that post because I was on my way out the door and didn't feel like doing all the italics tags. This is an invitational and I've been rather nice I thought. Toss in an "I invited you because I liked you" and that brings my appeal to emotion to a close.

[Ectomancer]

I would tend to think that all 3 of us would be town, but I also recognize that scum can dig in and refuse to lynch a townie simply in order to not be on that wagon. (Which by the way Adel, is why I think your breaking up a town wagon on day 1 doesn't mean a thing)

I don't have time to fact check this.. could someone else look and see if Ecto has been consistent about thinking that me busting up Atrem's wagon day 1 is a null-tell?

No I didn't say it, I didn't comment on it, I wasn't asked about it. It is one of your reasons that you aren't scum against equally weak "Adel is scum" from the other side. You can't crawl inside my brain to see whether there is consistency there or not. You can only see that I didn't lynch you, nor did I give you town clearance.

You can rephrase it to read "By the way Adel, your breaking up a town wagon on Day 1 doesn't mean a thing" if you would like. Clearly you have more time than I do to make sure your comments are phrased

just

so. I haven't, which is why Spring didn't get her

italics

either, making her think I was yelling at her...

[Ectomancer]

My point is Ecto, that Adel ought to have been hammered. He softclaimed power role, which almost always means doctor, and the scum wouldn't suspect one shot, so why not hammer the doctor? The Vi thing only works if his scumbuddies are actually the kind to do that. If Adel does believe that Elmo and Troll are Vi's buddies, then it doesn't make sense that she'd ask them to hammer, because they are too cautious to ever do so in a credible way. Which leads me back to my point, Adel ought to have been hammered.

Ok, getting this straight. You're saying that a Elmo/Vi/Troll scumgroup doesn't make sense because Vi asked for a hammer, but shouldn't have knowing that his buddies couldn't do it in a credible manner.
That makes some sense, but they weren't the only ones sitting on their hands. I was also there, meaning Vi could have been looking for me to do it. That being said, I think that the case for that particular scum group is a 1 legged stool.

Which leads me back to my point, Adel ought to have been hammered.

Sitting in the position to have done it, I still disagree. Too many unexplained "absolute" opinions being stated on both sides for me to vote with any confidence on that lynch and not enough good case points (on either side)
In addition, I didn't see, nor did anyone explain exactly what an information lynch on Adel was supposed to give us, and with us sitting at 9 players and no dead scum, I'm not budging without at least an idea of what I expect either.


And now I see you guys are arguing over who said what...my comments remain the same on the possibility.

[Ectomancer]

Troll does actually still support a mass claim though Troll seems to have little support based on the things others have said. Why does springlullaby's failure to address the issue in particular be important?

Because requesting a claim from an individual while declining to answer your question is suspect? It didn't have to be SL, anyone who ignored you and then went after additional claims deserves to answer for it. I'm also wondering exactly why you've been ignored on the topic.

unvote

Taking a couple days off from life. I don't think I'll need a replacement.

[Ectomancer]

For fuck sake. Bloody kill it with fire already.

Adel town:
Elmo,

Ecto

, Zorb = scum for bloody avoiding the wagon like suck.

Adel scum:
Vi,

Ecto

= scum --> bussing may vary depending on importance of Adel's scum role.

yet spring is not voting for Ecto.

I said I was ok to lynch Ecto, but I rather see you flip.

No, you said Ecto is scum regardless. Why are you not voting me if I'm scum? Not enough support (or even a case that I've seen) to lynch Ecto, so you figure Adel is going to be the easiest, take out an Ecto supporter tonight, and that makes me an easier lynch tomorrow?

vote SpringLullaby

(again)

[Ectomancer]

I haven't gone over it in detail, but I did a brief skim on Ecto overnight and.. eh, I can kinda understand why I got the townish feel I did at the time, but I'm not sure it's justified in retrospect; I'm a bit disturbed by 1312, actually, it looks a really weak reason to join Adel + DGB on the notAdel wagon, moreso because Spring is likely town as opposed to someone like DGB. It's less outright horrible than Adel / DGB, but I still have a red light about the timing and lack of mentioning Adel. I guess I would've expected him to comment on Adel at that point instead of just attack Spring and ignore the wagon, having commented on it earlier.

You might be disturbed because it is a post out of context and thusly misrepped as well.

As I posted just prior, I was taking a couple days off, unsure how long that might be. When that happens, I'll usually pull my vote so that it isnt just sitting somewhere to be taken advantage of. Once on level ground again and sure I would be back, back my vote went.
The misrep is that it wasn't an Adel/DGB non-Adel wagon, it was

my

wagon that

I

started, with stated reasons. Adel jumped on, and then DGB. I've also gave my opinion on Adel yesterday so talking about a lack of mentioning Adel is far off the mark Elmo.
To further clarify my opinion on Adel, lynching him yesterday was a

mistake

. Why can't you think things through ffs?

If Adel was a 1-shot Doc as Adel claimed, and Porkens cop, we would have had another result from an alive Porkens today.

If Adel (as flipped) was scum, then to protect his claim, Porkens would have to have lived. If dead, then we have confirmation of scum Adel and it would have been no gamble or guess when he flipped scum. Adel would have to have gambled that Porkens would investigate elsewhere. A Godfather on the scum team might not care and be willing to take the gamble. This would bank on scum following through with Adel's gambit, but once again we would have a result from Porkens if they did.

However, I can imagine how another goon might have felt about being exposed if Porkens chose them as an investigation target if coerced into following path #2. With Adel riding a doc claim gambit and scum #2 willing to let him, scum #3 would be likely outvoted in the chat, Porkens would live, and Adel would continue on with that gambit. Scum #3 may not have liked that idea at all.

The only time scum #3 would have a chance to decide their future was to bus Adel, taking away the gambit and then kill Porkens on the basis that Roleblocker/Cop/Vig(1 shot) balanced their roles.

Of course scum #3 could already have been on the Adel wagon from the beginning, the GF held out, finally realized Adel was going to be lynched, gave in and joined the bus.

That lynch held at L-1 for a long time before getting the hammer. Who gave in, and for what reason?

[Ectomancer]

I think Gurgi deserves a slap upside the head for buying into the testing Porkens thing, but he's confirmed, so whatever. I'mma let Zorblag respond to you first, I think.

Gurgi's confirmed? Oh well, there goes it then.

Am I the only one to be bothered by Zorblag's hard work to create an Adel counterwagon, then hammer her out of the blue?

No Gurgi's not confirmed. However, the circumstances surrounding the claim make him very unlikely to be scum.

I've already commented on my take on the Adel wagon and why it probably ended up as it did. I think the reason Adel's wagon stalled was because of the dilemma I explained in my last post. To answer DGB directly, yes, that makes Zorblag a candidate to be the one who finally got tired of the situation and hammered.

What do you think of Ecto, DGB? Especially around the Adel wagon?

Ecto was all over the place. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around him. He was pretty focused on springlullaby, nothing else stands out. Mostly he laid low, which he's been doing sporadically anyway.

Why?

Dunno yet.

Why the distraction technique Elmo? Why did you skip over Ecto's response to your earlier comment? You appeared to be fishing for negative reactions in general back then, and now specifically from DGB. When you didn't get a line to run with, you respond with "Dunno why I asked".

DGB was asking directly about Troll. The only thing I found from you was this ego-stroking "I heard you were good scum", (bolded sections 1 & 2), and then a pass for Troll with the obligatory "Im slightly uneasy", bolded section 3.

(n.b. The previous post is an addendum to 1399 and not directed at Troll.)

Elmo be praising Troll as scum here (as did Adel) but Troll no has any reason to think that Elmo no would be subtle enough to manage to give the same impression were he scum.

Well, I remember someone telling me pre-game that you were good scum, I can't place who but I respected their opinion, and I saw Mirth nominated you for a scummie and I'd trust you were at least pretty good for her to do that.

I guess have a tendency to overestimate people's ability as scum in that kind of absence of playing with them;

I think you'd have to be good in order to fake everything this far,

but equally I feel people tend to place people as town for the wrong reasons.

And I don't blame you for remaining neutral on me, but I guess I'm slightly uneasy about the way you have a lot of options open to you later on in terms of who to suspect that you seem quiet about at the present.

I should probably reread your opinion on Adel since I can't recall an impetus for the shift towards suspecting him. Can you walk me through how you got from essentially neutral to being prepared to hammer? My todo list is growing :\

Also. Hi, B&B! Where're you at with the game?

[Ectomancer]

I still see no reason not to have called for Porkens and Spring's lynch. At some point you have to assume a certain competence. When what a person has done makes no sense when assessed by their actions and the name and method of their claimed role, then they need to be pressed and given the opportunity, tested. Spring was no perfect test, don't get me wrong, but I can count. Our numbers were likely 6-3 barring an SK (and circumstances point against it). A gambit that could draw out a counter-claim if a cop existed, or keep 2 scum alive (Porkens and Spring) if one

didn't

exist leaves Porkens, Spring, and their buddy alive with Porkens claiming a guilty on the best lynch target and game over. I've pointed out more than once about his involvement in the quick lynch. Add in that his claim simply was not believable, and Spring defending him

before

he announced an innocent

and even then

she should have been skeptical [/i].
Now however I would be forced to imagine a Spring GF who defended Porkens because she knew him to be town. But. I'm not ready to believe in that coincidence. (Cop investigates GF N1) I was far readier to believe in a gambit.
Now, I won't go dwelling on the Adel thing, as was requested except for this: He was a goon and a goon in trouble with a fake claim on the board. Cop/Roleblocker setup looks like a scum group that would need to dictate who makes the kill and likely 1 investigation immune. 1-shot vig thrown in for randomness I'll buy as a decent normal setup. (Ooh I think I just soft claimed)
Taking this as the scenario; that immune player I'm taking as a GF. With Adel, they would have a few choices during all that.
They could try to stay neutral and see which way things went, if things looked to go sour, they could bus.
They could bank that Adel could pull himself out for another day and actively support him in that effort. I think this would also involve trying to draw a Porkens investigation, banking that Porkens wouldn't investigate Adel (if Adeltown, investigation gets lost if Scum kill Adel is what Porkens would have to have considered)

[Ectomancer]

Ok, please tell us if you think Gurgi to be scum or an SK? There will be questions regarding either answer and I'm not certain you could find an adequate response for them.

[Ectomancer]

[quote="DrippingGoofball"](1) soft claims are scummy
[quote]

It's difficult to postulate a setup that consists of no other power roles and keeping your own role a mystery in the process...

Posting > not posting. However you want to do it. Seeing your thoughts as you read along would be great. I've tried skipping back and forth when replacing in before, and somehow the 40 pages after the first 10 dont get read so much as the 8 pages that accumulated since I replaced in.

[Ectomancer]

Now, I won't go dwelling on the Adel thing, as was requested except for this: He was a goon and a goon in trouble with a fake claim on the board. Cop/Roleblocker setup looks like a scum group that would need to dictate who makes the kill and likely 1 investigation immune. 1-shot vig thrown in for randomness I'll buy as a decent normal setup. (Ooh I think I just soft claimed)
Taking this as the scenario; that immune player I'm taking as a GF. With Adel, they would have a few choices during all that.
They could try to stay neutral and see which way things went, if things looked to go sour, they could bus.
They could bank that Adel could pull himself out for another day and actively support him in that effort. I think this would also involve trying to draw a Porkens investigation, banking that Porkens wouldn't investigate Adel (if Adeltown, investigation gets lost if Scum kill Adel is what Porkens would have to have considered)

I'm guessing this is the part you are wanting narrowed Vi. My best guess is that the the former probably more likely than the latter. Trying to attract an investigation, while trying to protect Adel was just as likely to get them lynched you would think and I'm not certain they would stick their neck out. Riding the fence and then going with the bus when it was clear Adel was going down seems a safer route. My 2 people who would likely fit that profile is Troll and Elmo.

[Ectomancer]

@Ectomancer 1481: And I see you're not voting anyone. Since the resident scum doesn't seem to like my questioning, I'll keep this simple: Vote. Be prepared to explain yourself.

Yeah. Urge Ectomancer to vote (probably for me) so that your buddy can quickhammer? Unless Ecto is your buddy and you want a case and a vote pronto?

DGB: I'm not assuming you're scum; I'm very familiar with that trap and I'm trying to avoid it as much as possible. That said.. I like you personally, but I can't see how we don't lynch you today.

I hate this line, saying that someone is an unavoidable lynch. Especially when your vote happens to not be on that person.

Again, you're in a rush to see me hammered? Hey this is my last game, don't hurry for me.

@Vi

3/4 of your post is an attack on me with a lame, snotty defense of the points I brought up against you.

The rest consists of entreating 2/3 players to hurry up and vote (me). Maybe it would be 3/3 had B&B read the game.

You're stretching the truth of the matter when my assessment of what happened revolves around Troll and Elmo and my vote is highly likely to settle there. I could see Elmo dropping a vote on you, and his statement of your lynch as a foregone conclusion is quite an assuming stance to take there but yes, Vi can suck an egg (I really wanted to write fuck off).

[Ectomancer]

Let me get this clear, if there are 4 people who most likely would vote DGB, they should go ahead and place them now, thus ending the day?

You see I understand cause and effect. Now that you do too, you can wait for my vote even if it wouldn't end the day in that manner. I think that day 3 with 1 scum dead and 7 people, having confidence in your vote is a lot more important than impressing others with the fact that your vote has been placed.

[Ectomancer]

Baiting? Is this how you engage people? You clearly demanded that I vote and that I have a reason for it. You didn't bother asking me if I had a reason for not voting for one of the two people I have already declared as likely candidates.

Time to take the burden of providing answers yourself:
Given my hypothesis, which player do you believe most likely to have the necessary scum motivations, Elmo or Zorblag?
Relying upon your own assumptions, and DGB not a choice, provide another individual as a lynch option that would demand your vote to be on them right at this very moment.

[Ectomancer]

@B&B - I took 2 months off from MS, didn't start any other games, and this is the only 1 I'm attempting to play, and will likely be the last for the forseeable future.

[Ectomancer]

I have to admit complicity in the slowness of this thread. I can't recall when I last re-read more than the most recent 3 or 4 posts whenever I login. This is getting silly though.
Elmo is pushing this lynch by consensus and nobody seems to have a problem with that. Vi seems to be on the same thought train as Elmo with his insistence that we get votes from everyone on someone

right now

. (Shouldn't we be arguing over cases and not who is currently willing to lynch whom? wtf?)

Fine. If you want expanded lynch options, I'll hammer anyone but Spring/BB or Spyrex/Gurgi. The rest of you all have good reasons to be lynched. I start school August 24th. It would be nice if we could finish the game by then.

[Ectomancer]

vote Troll

Reasons already stated.

There's absolutely no way a scum <snip> would have...

I love this line when I'm scum...

[Ectomancer]

@BaB -

Ectomancer, if Porkens no be a sane cop that lynch no establishes the claim at all and that many town power roles with a sane cop be unreasonable to expect. Right now Troll be inclined to lynch DrippingGoofball and seeing how the night kills play out or Adel to see if the cop claim be true. That do be a change from what Troll has said before but the situation has changed. Troll's first choice be a mass claim and, barring a counter claim of some power role, a DrippingGoofball lynch as Troll has more reason to think she be scum than anyone else at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Based upon the 'mistaken' bus on town Adel statement alone or is there more?

Leaving Adel alive would certainly put a fake claiming scum in a bind wouldn't it? Having only claimed a 1-shot, maybe he could try saying he was playing chicken with scum and lost if the cop dies, but seriously, he would be the lynch tomorrow if that happened.

This was my first allusion to it. I hadn't fully thought the scenario through yet and was scatterbrained in RL, so this was another one of my lazy ways of getting an idea out there and hoping someone else would see it and elaborate on it for me. If I were to guess, if anyone else saw it and took note, it was scum and that is why Adel was finally bussed. Troll is my best bet for that.

As for wanting to test Porkens claim by lynching Spring, I was convinced they were a scum pair because of Spring's unwarranted defense of Porkens prior to the claim, her blithe acceptance of the claim afterwards despite (and this ties in Porkens) Porkens claim being completely unconvincing, both in its timing and circumstances, plus his involvement in a quicklynch the previous day made me very certain that I had a pair pulling a gambit. Bear in mind that despite being only day 2, we already had 3 town dead. A Porkens/Spring gambit wouldnt have to hold for more than a day to make a win for scum a near certain shot.

[Ectomancer]

That's just not a good argument on what scum will do. I once won a game because people just

knew

that scum wouldn't hammer the uncountered claimed cop on day 1...

[Ectomancer]

unvote

Hey Ecto - are you willing to help us lynch Zorblag? You two scumbags should decide which one of you is going to make it closest to the finish line. Feel free to do it in thread since you can't daytalk. Just throw a spoiler tag on it.

I already voted Troll in 1571. The theory behind the case was presented much earlier, but I had not decided yet between Zorblag and Elmo who better fit the profile.
You definitely put in some work on that analysis. I think however that your later conclusions forget about some of the earlier conclusions when you went to arrive at your result.
Something funny I noticed when looking at that I dont think you commented on. Zorblag and I were never on a wagon together (that I saw). Your theory would see hardcore distancing or maybe scum hanging with different cliques, so I dont disagree that would be a point in the favor of your hypothesis to speculate that way.
For me though, it just reinforces my belief that I am right about him.

[Ectomancer]

@B&B: Well, there are/were three people on the Trollwagon.
You - Troll speaks in a terribly obtuse style that hides his true intentions.
DGb - Vote analysis mentioned earlier.
Ecto - OMG

KITTEN

WAGON
While I trust your vote more than either of the others, you've explicitly stated you haven't made a case on him yet, so.

Wow. "OMG WAGON"?
I explained the thought processes I was going through, you wanted a vote, I gave you the 2 people I was considering, you flipped out OMG VOTE, I've finally voted after waiting for BaB to finish her read through and catch up, and now you characterize it all as OMG WAGON?

Seriously, if you think the wagon is fishy, give good reasons without resorting to misrep. The only valid reason to

wait

is for BaB to make the case, but its lack doesnt make the wagon 'fishy'.

[Ectomancer]

While I will accede that either Gurgi or BaB is highly likely to suffer an NK tonight and thus we can reasonably guess who will be alive tomorrow, I find it rather offputting that you are spending so much of today's energy talking about tomorrow as though today's lynch is a foregone conclusion. You are totally assuming right now that DGB, Ecto, and Vi will all be alive tomorrow for what you are saying to be of any relevance.

To that end, you are trying to push along Zorblag's lynch with "you are scum if you arent pushing it" statements like this one:

Oh wait - which one is subtly trying hardest to derail a Zorblag wagon? The answer to this question is probably the answer to the one prior.

An equally catty response to that question would be who is trying hardest to bus a Zorblag that seems to be the lynch target anyhow by making the most noise about it?

[Ectomancer]

I've explained my position regarding Adel, especially regarding his claim. The original quote was dug out for BaB recently. I've also explained my reasoning with Spring re: scum gambit with Porkens and in fact if you look at the facts of history, DGB you agreed with me. You can either accept that reasoning or accept the story that, as scum, I would know that Porkens was a cop, whether his target really is innocent or not, and that Adel was false-claiming scum. In spite of knowing all of this, I continue with the pressure on the cop, accusing him of a gambit to either flush out a cop counterclaim, or lacking that "clearing" a scum buddy. I attempt to get his investigation lynched. I refuse to vote for my buddy Adel, at all, despite the fact that the only thing his claim was going to do was either clear another townie, find one of us, or get him lynched the next day when we killed the cop anyhow? Why? For 1 more night of input before he got lynched? About the only sane reason would be to hope to hell that Porkens investigated a Godfather before too many confirmed existed, and with Spyrex so likely to be a Vig (and scum would know the numbers), Spyrex, Spring, Porkens, plus either another confirmed townie or a guilty on a scum buddy, that time probably already passed, so Porkens almost certainly had to die last night or scum would have had a near certain loss. This isn't a new concept either, something I put together as a defense. I asked this question

back then

. I'll go dig it out if I have to, but I distinctly recall asking the question of who was trying to draw Porkens investigation if scum planned to leave him alive and cover Adel's claim? It wasn't Adel himself because he didn't turn up Godfather (something I had toyed with in my head), so who was it?

Sorry, I dont see any gain for a scum-Ecto's actions knowing all of that when I could have easily bussed Adel for any number of reasons instead and avoided the whole quagmire of looking bad, plus the whole problem of leaving a cop alive just to help Adel save his skin. The only actual gain I could see is if I were Godfather and hoped to get an investigation on myself to "clear" me. Those are some really crappy odds for dubious gain with a gambit like that. On the other hand, that reasoning at least spills over to some degree to cover Zorblag too. It wouldn't make sense for him either, unless he didn't realize the full extent of the quandary Adel had put him in until I pointed it out directly to him (dont know the post of number of the original post, but I quoted it in 1576). At that time he would have realized that the only sensible action he had would have been to bus Adel and eliminate the problem.
If Zorblag did not bus Adel as he protests, then either Elmo did, or both scum were already on Adel's wagon. I believe that would leave us with Vi and Spring/BaB for candidates there with Spring being an incredibly lucky GF and pulling an investigation result on N1.

[Ectomancer]

Mass claim is fine. Vanilla town.

DGB you're gone for a week? Like won't be back before deadline?

[Ectomancer]

5 days left till deadline is too little time (and we are at 4 days now) to be dinking around with figuring out who makes the order, getting the people to actually login in that order and claim, getting the inevitable "waiting on X to hurry up and claim", and then have time left to actually discuss it.
Everyone else quit delaying, spit it out if you have a bombshell, else there is no way we need to sit the next 3-4 days trying to get out a massclaim and bickering over the order. The faster it gets out the better.

[Ectomancer]

Explain how you can be talked into a vote for a wagon that doesn't exist? And if you know you could be talked into it, then you must have some basis for it, meaning you should have something to talk about that could convince others to join that wagon. Why aren't you trying to do the convincing instead of waiting for someone else to "talk you into it".?

This is close to deadline, so now you have a bit of a convenient excuse for bad play, but you've done this before with no deadline for an excuse. What "this" is exactly is that you keep pushing for the most likely consensus lynch instead of working and discussing the cases themselves.

I think you've been playing out a line of crap the last few posts begging for someone to help you "drink the wine" or whatever so you could have a reason to place your vote on DGB. All you did was wait until you thought you could use the deadline for a reason.
So, are you bussing DGB and have been setting it up, or did you simply refuse to bus Troll and have been fishing for an excuse not to do it?

@Bab - spell out your reasoning as Troll requested and make a eulogy speech please.
@LG - eulogy speech please


@LG -

[Ectomancer]

vote Zorblag

[Ectomancer]

BaB - offchance of being GF, but I didnt see Spring overtly trying for an investigation and I'm still unwilling to believe the odds of a N1 investigate on the GF over the other scum possibilities. Spring's defense of Porkens prior to the claim and confirming death was the main suspicious action here.
Elmo - Has been consistently pushing for the lynches by consensus rather than argue the merits of the cases. Kingmaker on the DGB/Zorblag lynch option, too apologetic in his choice, begging for BaB to help him see the light on DGB, but ultimately deciding against it by citing DGB and myself on the other wagon. (I know from your point of view this may not be all that telling, but from mine it certainly is)
Vi - I don't think I buy such a tenacious bus on Adel. He hit him early, kept that wagon alive, and continued with supporting analysis of Adel's play. Adel's lynch likely would have failed without him.
Zorblag - Classic keep your options open play. Held back voting for Adel until after I pointed out how bad a position an Adelscum would have put them with a 1 shot doc fakeclaim. Adel was already in hot water, but it wasn't too long after my post in response to Zorblag that he decided to lynch him. I've previously posted more detailed reasons for believing Zorblag to be scum. I just tried to hit the quick highlights here, but can drag them back out again if you cant use the post filters.

Out of the 4 of you, Zorblag has the strongest individual case against him. Also, as he has been bantered about as a lynch, seeds have been placed to put at least 2, if not 3 of us as scum partner. That to me is no coincidence as once he is dead, you have confusion already in place as we have to deal with competing scum buddy theories. That just reinforces my belief that he is scum. Whoever lives through tomorrow will have to deal with figuring out who the last one is.

[Ectomancer]

unvote

Show me where Spring was more likely to be courting an investigation than your ride the rail noncommittal play would have. I seriously suspected a scum pair with Spring's defense of Porkens before the claim, and so wouldnt have been surprised at that time to find a ScumSpring, but otherwise, for day 1 actions? The only point in that favor I saw was that Porkens did indeed investigate Spring

[Ectomancer]

@ Again, it's unlikely that both Elmo and Troll decided to needlessly bus Adel. By process of elimination, Ectomancer HAS to be scum (with one of Elmo and Troll).

---

@Ectomancer: Happy birthday! Why the unvote?

I disagree with the top assertion if you consider the actual events. Adel was at L-1 for a long time, but that position was held by Gurgi, not Elmo. Gurgi unvoted IIRC to collect his thoughts about the matter, but I thought he was still inclined to hammer. Elmo took that opportunity to grab the L-1 spot, probably expecting as I did that Gurgi would hammer, however Zorblag then decided to join the popular wagon by hammering, and that wagon was actually larger than just the amount to hammer because Gurgi appeared to be supporting it as well. I dont think it farfetched at all for both scum to jump on the 6 player strong voting bloc on someone they would know was going to turn up scum.

I unvoted because there is still tomorrow. As long as he is talking about other people with definitive terms more than he did the early part of the game, that's fine with me. It gives opportunity for WIFOM spins, but it also gives opportunity for slips on who his partner is. I have every intention of putting it back there. I also have to point out to Zorblag that he couldn't be quicklynched with only his partner available to quicklynch and Im certain he doesnt feel like doing that today with Lylo sitting so tantilizingly close.

[Ectomancer]

Post monster ate my reply. In brief:

That's the impression I got was there was tacit support for an Adel wagon even if he was toying with another.
Elmo I pointed out an instance before this where you were doing the same thing. Filter Ecto should find it.
Vi you can see how much talk and analysis has come from troll after the vote and unvote. I still think him to be scum and so wasn't concerned about a quicklynch at all.
BaB a GF has finally been broached by Zorblag. Could you answer to that? Spring buddied up to Porkens pre-claim and didnt bat an eyelid when he claimed cop with an innocent on her.

[Ectomancer]

You were talking, as long as you talk, I dont mind leaving you alive. You're right though, this has stalled to no end.

vote Zorblag

Either there will be a tomorrow or there won't. Whoever is alive can figure out the partner then (and please just NK me, seriously, I'm done).

[Ectomancer]

And what Troll said about your reasons for suspecting Troll did little to convince you Troll takes it?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

No. There were a couple things you corrected me on, (or at least altered my perception of what may have happened), but you didnt change the core of my belief. Likely the only source that could do that would be someone other than you, and with a scum partner floating around, it would probably take 2.

@BaB - I think there is going to be a tomorrow. I don't want to be obligated to keep up with it. I'm done with this game for a very long time. Good luck to town, but better luck if I'm not the one expected to figure it out.

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer's vote on day two for springlullaby seems to have been a poor move to Troll. Ectomancer said that him suspected that Porkens and springlullaby were a scum team and never seemed to back off on that. Troll thinks that the choice of springlullaby for the lynch over Adel after Porkens's cop reveal was one that furthered a scum agenda rather than a town agenda.

Ectomancer stayed largely in the background during day three. Him gave his bussing idea and little else in terms of contribution towards finding scum. Him said that him was willing to vote for any other than BridgesAndBaloons or Lord Gurgi. Him had no hesitation at all when it came to voting for Troll when BridgesAndBaloons did so towards the end of the day. Troll never saw any reason why Troll would have been a better vote than Elmo on day three.
[snipped]

This is a good case. I would like Ecto to respond to it, particularily the allegations of him suspecting a SL Porkens team and when he switched to thinking SL was town, and also how he came to suspect you troll so strongly.

I know you aren't daft enough to be asking why I no longer thought SL was Porkens partner after Porkens flipped cop. You could still be a GF (not town).
Troll and BaB, I already quoted at least twice (if not more) the reason I put my vote on Troll. I spent a number of posts researching and figuring things out (basically forced by Vi to do so), so don't tell me that it came out of nowhere. As for why I finally chose Troll, that was when I realized that I had explained the fingerscuffs scumAdel put scum in directly to troll. Troll saw the light and lynched Adel. Elmo is still likely your partner, but you deserve the vote more and I've more than explained to you why. I don't need to convince scum of your scumminess anyhow...

[Ectomancer]

Troll and BaB, I already quoted at least twice (if not more) the reason I put my vote on Troll. I spent a number of posts researching and figuring things out (basically forced by Vi to do so), so don't tell me that it came out of nowhere. As for why I finally chose Troll, that was when I realized that I had explained the fingerscuffs scumAdel put scum in directly to troll.

I wanted you to restate so I could understand better. If you're town, it's in your best interests to be understood by me.

No, you didn't ask me to restate it, you asked me to explain what Zorblag had to say, which was that my case came out of nowhere and then YOU implied my reasonings came out of nowhere as well by saying his case had merit. I spent days chasing that tail, and every bit of reasoning for choosing that particular cat is right there for both of you to look at.
If you wanted it restated, then ask for it to be restated, but don't tell me that Zorblag has a point and when I prove that he doesn't, you start pretending as though I'm avoiding a question from you.

I see from your "Elmo is town" statement you must be one of these multitude of 1 shot cops we have had in this town. Here's my result:

Zorblag is scum, or is the rule that we only can call someone town? I don't know how many times in this game that someone without a *&^# clue has called someone else town. (Oh hello DGB). How about playing the game using logic and cases instead of this losing game of meta town reads and lynch by consensus instead of debate???

[Ectomancer]

It's certainly not Zorblag that is frustrating here. He's playing as I would expect him to be playing.

@Vi - just because I have a hard time believing that the cop coincidentally investigated the GF N1 and was his only revealed result, doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. I simply would not have put my chips on it back then. Yes, I fully expected another day tomorrow. Troll should be lynched today. I dont know, or frankly care who his partner is right now, and

really

dont feel like making a choice, much less an actual informed re-read on it. If I'm still alive, I'll suck it up and deal with it, but there was certainly more than just my opinion indicating that troll is likely scum and at least they have their roles revealed to back them up.

[Ectomancer]

Its no wonder we have inertia. Your scum buddy certainly doesn't want to lynch you and the only other way that you could be lynched is if both other town decide that I really am right and vote you. I admit I haven't done a good job selling what should be a near automatic lynch on you and figure out who your buddy is tomorrow. My fault for being a slackass. No, I dont want to lose, you're right, but I lack the motivation to do more than point back and what both I and other (now dead) players thought about Troll.

[Ectomancer]

Vi, Troll thinks that it might be helpful if you answer BridgesAndBaloons's last question. Troll no be worried about it as Troll knows that Troll be town but explaining your certainty would be handy. Troll will also note that the bulk of your arguments this day do rest on the assumption that you be town which the rest of us no have a strong reason to believe intrinsically.

Sorry, I missed B&B's question somehow.
The short version of it is that there was no reason for both of them to bus Adel when there was a competing wagon on someone a Cop had declared an innocent result on. Deadline was not a factor, so there was nothing forcing a decision at that time.

As far as my reasoning relying on me being Town, I wouldn't count myself as anything else in my own analysis. If you have a reason to dispute my Towniness, I'd like to hear it.

-----

Vote: Ectomancer

(L-1)
The argument that someone should have quickhammered by now makes sense given the lethargy of the thread, and between Troll-scum and Ecto-scum I know precisely who I would pick.

There was a couple reasons I started an opposing wagon on a cop investigated innocent. 1: Porkens/SL scum pair was a serious danger and 2: If SL really was innocent (and scum would know), they would avoid that wagon like the plaque, and no, I don't see them "hoping" for a QL with one of them tossing on a vote and seeing if the other got there in time. Your idea that both Troll and Elmo avoiding a toxic wagon together negates them from being scum together is a load of crap logic. Psychology says the opposite in fact. Fire is hot, don't touch it without a good reason. They didn't even have time to talk about the possibility, so you think one of them would have had the balls to jump alone in good faith? Anyhow, I think your move is going to resolve that one way or another isn't it? Either I'll be lynched by Elmoscum now and game over, or we get to sit here for awhile and decide whether to lynch you or Zorblag first because either game is over or you both are scum and hope that 2 scumbag votes will sway at least 1 town member.

The lethargy I've already explained. Troll's buddy cant lynch me alone. It takes some kind of 'build up' before they could place that vote if town didn't jump before them. Looks like you decided that enough time had passed and you gave enough of a 'reason'.

Up to you BaB and Elmo. I'm not going through some PbPa at this point. Read my game, it speaks for itself. If Elmo is scum, GG. If BaB is GF, you got so damn lucky...
If not, lynch Zorblag or Vi (yeah, I'll change my vote because either I'm dead or you both are town). I think that takes care of tomorrow's lynch as well. It should be indisputable when the first one turns up scum that the second one is as well.

[Ectomancer]

Adel had dug himself a hole regardless and had nothing to lose.

[Ectomancer]

Troll also with a little more thought of what Elmo might be working with realizes that Elmo might think that Troll and Ectomancer be the scum team together. Given Elmo's stated suspicions that might actually be the most likely case.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I don't agree with Vi's analysis on Elmo/Troll as stated already, and this is certainly the line of argument I would expect from Elmo tomorrow as well. Troll can die as long as his buddy doesn't. I admit it wouldn't be hard to portray my own actions today as "putting on a show" in order to make the "loser" today appear obvtown.

[Ectomancer]

Ecto at L-1
I didn't hammer, Elmo didn't hammer. So, two possibilities

1) If Ecto is town, then Elmo and I must be town. This leaves the scumteam as Troll and Vi

I don't always know what I'm looking for when I do things like unvote so Zorblag can talk, but its crazy how it can work out. I truly had no idea who Zorblag's partner was (and seriously my attention out in here in RL is to the point I didn't really plan on looking either). Makes this a wrap for me. Lynch Zorblag today, Vi tomorrow and we win, yay I win my last game lets go home woohoo *sigh*

Really I don't have the drive to convince you except I think my posts have plainly led up to the opinions I have and the motivations behind what I've done. In fact, if anything meta ever applied anywhere at anyfrickin time, I would say that the path of going after Zorblag would certainly

not

be my path of least resistance as a scumbag with a partner around for me to be a slackass on.

Anyhow, the game is won, vote with me on Zorblag today and then on Vi tomorrow whichever of myself Elmo and BaB that remains alive (Im guessing BaB would die though) and we've done it.

[Ectomancer]

Huzzah! I'll have more time to chat later. Good game guys. In the meantime, here's some scumchat:

http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/HzibkYjP5X8R

[Ectomancer]

Er, hold on a second, how many people really thought that BridgesAndBaloons was a mandatory kill? That no occurred to Troll at all. BridgesAndBaloons was the backup kill at best for anyone other than Troll as scum so far as Troll could tell. Troll actually would have put the BridgesAndBaloons kill behind a no kill for Elmo (and viable for Vi) if the discussion had gone on.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I figured there was a choice, but I didn't like the keep BaB one myself. That would have left the entire decision to 1 town member. By killing BaB, you simply have to wait for either townie to vote the other. Good choice Vi!

[Ectomancer]

Thanks for the thoughts Zorblag. As real life would have it, crisis (that Im deciding to turn into opportunity) has postponed my school until January. Going to take the time to have a larger nest egg saved up beforehand. I may join a game or find a partner(s) for a Hydra in the next couple weeks and get a single game going. It would be fun with any of the players from this game.

Thanks to Adel for muddying the waters.
Thanks to Vi for looking townie.
Thanks to Zorblag for giving me a good "buddy".
Thanks to Elmo for picking the wrong scum.
Thanks to Porkens for claiming early.
Thanks to Spring for posting all 3 scum in 1 post and replacing out.
Thanks to Spyrex for killing town with his 1-shot
Thanks to Hero for obligingly going down day 1
Thanks to Tajo for getting it wrong but playing hard anyhow.
Thanks to Artem for blocking the Vig bullet
Thanks to Korts for trying.
Thanks to DGB for helping misdirect the town.
Thanks to Gurgi for helping to lend moral support to a SpringLully lynch
Thanks to Bab for replacing into many pages and for helping to sully Troll's reputation when it needed it.
Thanks of course to our wonderful mod caf19.

But seriously, thank you all for the game.

[Ectomancer]

what the hell ever dude. I think you should be thankful that I recognized that that you were going to be relentless about busing me & I adopted to your less than optimal tactic. You are welcome, and I hope you get that scummy so that you can experience the joy of being everyone's policy lynch.

Adel, lynching you as scum is a result of your town playstyle. Optimal play for town is to get reads from you then lynch you. For Vi I don't think it's the same. Vi's tactics worked because it wasn't optimal. Nobody expected you to go along with suboptimal play. So choke up your balls for a second and thank Vi for the win.

Actually, though he should still thank Vi for the win, at that time in game it was my firm belief that without Vi's support town would not have been able to muster the votes to lynch Adel and with your support (Gurgi) on the Spring wagon, we could have made that one sail. With 3 of us and DGB still in game the next day, I think a flawless win was within reach. Still, it could have exposed us and Vi's was the conservative play. No telling what a change in play would have done.

[Ectomancer]

Yeah, we won!

[Ectomancer]

(shrug)

I think things might've turned out slightly better for town if claiming hadn't made this game very nearly 3:8.

I think you may have grounds for this statement. Vi was saying (in opposition to the game balance) that our lynches felt pre-determined, but that was really a function of the claims I think. I don't know if the town had the choice for a couple reasons.
1: Spyrex played the 1-shot Vig his way and that involves claiming after the kill. I think this move helped the town. I think that another player may not have made the same move, but I will certainly take this move into consideration when looking at game balancing if I ever mod again.
2: Porkens was getting some pressure, and his innocent investigation was too.

Porkens could have kept pushing against a Spring wagon, keeping his claim to himself until he got a guilty, but that is really second guessing his play, and as I said, no telling what a different move from any player in the game would have done.

[Ectomancer]

My case on Ecto was point on + something that I did not mention (because no on would have taken me seriously) and which put Ecto on my scum list d1 is that if you go back to day 1 you will see that Ectomancer answered Adel's questionnaire without suspicion (which is not damning since Artem did the same) but what was really scummy is that Ecto's following post was one of questions directed at Adel: what happened there I think is that Ectomancer realized that his 'unsuspicion' was potentially scummy and scrambled a post in haste to cover up.

Actually, no. I tend to break posts apart for ease of read. It's a habit you can find in my meta easily. Just look for games where I make 2-3 posts back to back to back. I do it commonly.

But whatever makes you feel good. You didn't stick around long enough for me to manipulate you, so we'll never know what would have happened if you had stayed in reach of my sweaty paws

[Ectomancer]

In the sense that you might have exaggerated things a bit.

No. I play the game with a code of ethics and that line I did not cross.