Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!

[Zorblag]

/confirm

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll gives warm greetings to all. Troll will start with a

Vote: Artem

. Him be the first, alphabetically by user name, who no has posted since the game began.

Troll no be inclined to be troubled by either Spyrex's opening comment on the deadline or Porken's dialogue. Calling Porken's vote for springlullaby part of the wagon on her seems a bit of a stretch to Troll, but so be it. Troll also realizes that Ectomancer be using what him had to work with so far in the game for his post so his stance be a fine way to start things.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

First off, Artem has now posted. Troll will

unvote

and

Vote: Vi

. The potential vote for Mr. Flay which would have come next accomplishes too little for even Troll to bother with it.

Troll will let Adel answer Ectomancer's questions. Troll has a few opinions that Troll might share after but seeing what Adel has to say first seems worthwhile.

For Adel's questions/requests:

1 and 2. It be easiest to look on Troll's wiki. It has the games broken down by current, finished as town and finished as scum. It covers slighty over 6 months but not by so much as to be bothersome Troll thinks.

3. Like a couple others Troll would break lurking into a couple categories. There be lurking by not posting for long stretches and active lurking which be anything where the player be posting but not making a noticeable effort to find scum. Troll answering these questions would probably count as active lurking if Troll made a pattern of this sort of thing and no contributed in other ways. Adel asking for the information be less likely to.

4. Troll thinks it just be populartajo. Spyrex did join a game after Troll died but we no had direct interaction. Troll no can think of the game that Ectomancer has in mind that Troll might have played with him.

5. None.

6. None.

Troll had failed to pick up on the fact that Ectomancer no had noticed the number of days to deadline when interacting with SpyreX. It be somewhat curious given the way the game was opened:

Day 1 begins. With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Autodeadline for 36 days from now (18 June, 11pm BST).

Troll would be interested in knowing if Elmo had a reason for his vote and whether him has any other reactions to what has been said thus far.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll gives warm welcome to Korts. Thanks you for replacing in.

Vi now be posting so Troll will

unvote

and all (including Korts) have now posted so Troll be done with that stage of Troll's voting.

First off, Artem has now posted. Troll will unvote and Vote: Vi. The potential vote for Mr. Flay which would have come next accomplishes too little for even Troll to bother with it.

Vi no understand why Troll vote in such methodical pattern.
Vi distrust policy or patternal nonfirst votes because they provide security which no be necessary or particular wanted in scumhunting.

At the start of the game anyone who no has posted yet warrants a vote in Troll's opinion. Troll needs a system to determine who to vote for first so Troll uses the alphabetical order of user names. Troll no restricts Troll's participation to these votes but them be something others can react to which helps Troll get a baseline of behavior to work with.

Troll no be taking a position on the early discussion, which leads Vi to believe Troll no want to call any side Town or scum. Troll's comment in 45 about Ectomancer suggests the same. Vi be wondering how long this will last.

Right now Troll no knows whether the actions Troll has commented are indications of town or scum play. Troll simply be noting the things that Troll finds interesting in some way as Troll sees them along with Troll's initial reactions. As the game progresses Troll will be able to put more things together and start to draw conclusions.

As far as Adel's questions and requests go, Troll sees them as helpful for getting that baseline of behavior to work with in a systematic way. Troll no has any trouble with them at all if that be their purpose (either for Adel alone or with something that has yet to be shared.) Troll finds populartajo's unwillingness to share the identity of his alts to be a reasonable reaction. Adel be welcome to ask about alts and expect answers if him wants but Troll thinks that the desire to keep them private be fine. The desire to have a complete list of game links does make it easier to check things quickly.

Speaking as the person with the most comprehensive wiki page on the site (probably), I also take umbrage with--

"top of your head" (along with other answers like "most of them are on my wiki" that other players gave) is the kind of answer that dodges responsibility for omissions. It also means that I've wasted my time with you, since I'll have to do all of the work myself.

It no be clear to Troll that Adel be complaining about all the deferences to the wiki. Troll's wiki be complete (and when Troll took a look Troll sees that all the games Troll has played here ended in December 2008 at the earliest so the six month time limit be covered to within a month if Adel be curious) so Troll assumes that it will do as well as if Troll had linked the games here. It be one extra click for Adel which Troll no minds requiring to offset the typing that Troll would have to do to get the information here. If Vi's list be complete then it no should be an issue either. It be those who said that them had partial lists that Troll imagines be the issue. If it turns out that Troll be wrong and Adel has an issue with complete wikis as well then Troll can live with him being disappointed there.

@Korts: Troll thinks that Troll has given the explanation that Troll will for issues with first post when Troll was addressing Vi's. You be welcome to make of it what you will. If you have any other questions or issues there which you no think were addressed let Troll know.

@populartajo: You seem to have time to continue to keep up with the game but not to go back and re-read to get out of what you think be the random voting stage for yourself. Why would that be?

Troll will at this time

Vote: Elmo

as Troll would very much like to see more than just the one vote from him in terms of participation.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Right now Troll no knows whether the actions Troll has commented are indications of town or scum play. Troll simply be noting the things that Troll finds interesting in some way as Troll sees them along with Troll's initial reactions. As the game progresses Troll will be able to put more things together and start to draw conclusions.

That is not the point. It may be clear that in general, early game avenues of discussion are just that, a way to start off somewhere, and are thus nulltells in perspective of the players involved--but to state this is blatant fence-sitting and counter-productive to the purpose of these early game avenues of discussion. You may not believe any one player's comments scummy per se, but not taking a side regardless of personal beliefs hurts discussion and through that the scumhunting abilities of town are crippled.

That be the second time you have refered to Troll's initial reactions as fence sitting. Troll was saying that the things Troll had seen no bothered Troll and no struck Troll as scummy on their own. Troll was attempting to provide opinions that others can use later on when looking at further things Troll has to add. If Troll were to try to make a case against Ectomancer, Porkens or SpyreX later on in the game and used their first posts as independent reasons that them were scummy that would be something that everyone could point to as a reason to suspect Troll. Troll much prefers to have people weigh in on the things that happen during the game sooner rather than later so that people no can wait till an opportune time to first express an opinion.

Out of curiosity, what be on either side of the fence that Troll be sitting on?

The same goes for your methodical "RVS" voting pattern: if you have a voting pattern that stays the same over multiple games regardless of alignment and other factors, you either don't comprehend the purpose in "random" voting or you are deliberately crippling the town's progress. Each "random" vote should be unique to the game and the situation.

Troll no believes that Troll ever said Troll used random voting. Troll no believes that there be any point to a random voting stage and so no tries to participate in one. What Troll be doing at the start of the game until Troll sees sufficiently scummy play be voting for those that have done the least to contribute to the game. At the very start when there be people who no have posted Troll needs a method to choose between them. After all have posted something, if Troll no has a strong thought about who be scum Troll takes a look at the information all have given us to work with and votes for the one who seems to Troll to have given the least.

Troll's vote typically be on the one that Troll would most like to see lynched at the time Troll makes it. Barring a better reason Troll makes this for lack of participation. If Korts feels that the random voting stage be important for some reason and that Troll no be following whatever rules this stage has then so be it. This no be the place to go into optimal early game play. Korts be reacting to what be happening and that be enough for Troll for now.

Adel

I forgot Elmo was in the game; I guess that would count as lurking to me. I'm sure interested to see where you're going with your little project. But yes; those are my final answers.

The danger of things like this (Elmo potentially slipping through the cracks and not being noticed by people) be one of the reasons that Troll has Troll's vote on Elmo just now for. Troll would be willing to say that Elmo be lurking but it be early enough that Troll be comfortable simply placing Troll's vote there and not making a big deal of it yet.

Not true, especially early in a day 1. There are numerous non-scummy reasons to place a vote without explicit reasoning.

Granted, but I don't think any of those reasons apply here.

Out of curiosity do you think that because you believe you know what populartajo's motives were or because you know the reasons one might vote without reasoning and think that none of them apply to populartajo in this case? Or if neither of those be the case, why did you say that you no thought populartajo's vote before giving reasons didn't fall into one of the cases where it would be non-scummy?

@SpyreX: Your vote still be on Vi. Does this because you think Vi's actions be scummy at this point or because you simply no have found anyone else worth voting for since the game started?

@springlullaby: Have your opinions on either Ectomancer or Porkens changed since your last post? Do you feel that Adel has given justification for his questions in a way that satisfies you at this time? What else has happened that be noteworthy? Troll's vote be on Elmo but really, despite the fat that springlullaby got some early votes and was the center of attention some at the start, Troll no has much at all to work with from her and would like to see more participation.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Ah, Adel, it seems Troll has an addendum to make. Troll now notices that Artem was killed in a Newbie 749 before Troll replaced so Troll has vaguely played in a game with him. Troll had forgotten that.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll has time to briefly check in this morning. Troll will

Unvote

and address a few things now.

So Troll be deliberately trying to no look scummy by no provide opinions... and when one do something that Troll considers scummy, Troll promises to vote someone for reasons that no include nonparticipation. Correct? The following question be: What would be "scummy" enough for you to take action? Other people have placed nonrandom votes by now, with reasoning that no look scummy IMHO.

Troll considers the first part of that to be a misrepresentation of what Troll has said. Troll has said that providing opinions of what has happened be valuable. Troll's first post included opinions, though those that have commented on them find them too bland for their taste it would seem. Beyond that Troll has largely been asking questions that relate to the things that Troll finds interesting to get a better feel for the motives behind them; if you feel that no be expressing opinions then it be your prerogative Troll supposes.

Troll considers lack of participation to be scummy. That be more true as we go forward and the samples Troll be working with no be so small but it still be something to work with at the start. Yes, Troll will almost certainly vote for reasons other than lack of participation as we go forward. Of course it also be the case that Troll does more than just voting so the actions that Troll takes (and has taken) show up outside the vote first.

Asking for a particular scummy action that would warrant a vote strikes Troll as not particularly helpful. For one thing, if Troll gave it it would be something to avoid. More importantly it usually no be one particular action so much as the sum of what a player has done (and not done) that be worth voting for.

Other people certainly have cast non-random votes thus far many of which look fine to Troll as well. Troll will be getting to more on that probably this afternoon. The implication from Vi be that Troll no has done so. Vi be welcome to find Troll's votes to be suspicious but the insinuation that them be random be something Troll no appreciates.

Troll will at this time Vote: Elmo as Troll would very much like to see more than just the one vote from him in terms of participation.

Why "very much"?

Troll would love to honestly say it was because Troll was expecting the sort of post this quote came from. That and the posts that have come since give us much to work with when looking at Elmo down the road. Sadly it mostly just be because that be how Troll talks more than anything else.

Troll actually was curious as to why Elmo was voting for Herodotus when Troll asked for the reasons before Troll had voted for Elmo. The vote came late enough in the game that Troll was surprised to see no comments with it at the time. Troll can see how Elmo might not get that from Troll's play though.

Troll: I stand by my statement that you were fence-sitting--in early game, it is important to emphasize most every difference in opinion, since otherwise there is no basis for scumhunting in the first place; and the stance you took was that no player was suspicious or even anti-town for their actions.

When Troll made that first post much of the content in the game was Ectomancer's attention to things that Porkens and SpyreX had said and responses to that. Troll didn't find either of the things that Porkens or SpyreX had said to be troubling but also wasn't bothered by how Ectomancer was following up on small pieces of information at the start of the game. There no be any particular reason to think that these three players should include scum in a twelve player game so Troll gave Troll's opinion that Troll no found what any of the three had done to be anti-town.

For the sake of comparison, what does Korts think of Elmo's thoughts on Ectomancer, Porkens and SpyreX in post 175? Him addresses others and things that happened later in the game and provides a bit more detail but Troll thinks that him largely be saying the same things Troll was about those three as relates to what had happened by the time Troll made Troll's first post.

A few other quick things before Troll heads off to teach:

springlullaby's post 164 sticks out as unnecessary to Troll and so far as Troll can tell the only one to mention it is Porkens (in 209).

Not to be offering Spring a break here, but it seems to me a lot of conversation has concerned her. (which in a bizarre way doesnt quite count as lurking) I could see the reason for just watching to see how all this plays out between the arguments going on.

Troll dislikes it when people be given excuses to lurk and in any case, Troll no finds this one to be compelling at all. She no has particularly been the center of attention for some time and back when she was getting votes and being talked about more it had nothing much to do with her play but rather with her being the subject of the votes of others; her joining the conversation shouldn't have shifted the discussion more than anyone else.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

There seems to be some attention on Artem and how him has cast votes recently. While Troll no cares for some of the things Artem has said or done regarding springlullaby, what scum would or wouldn't do regarding wagons, how him expresses his level of suspicion for Herodotus and the how him went about saying what games him has been in, Troll no finds his votes to be problematic. The two most recent (which be the ones that be of more interest in Troll's opinions) seem to be reactionary but Troll no sees them as following Adel as has been charged. With Herodotus it felt like Artem was goaded into voting. With SpyreX the cross voting seems to be a matter of disagreements about how and when bandwagons and meta should be used and the vote from Artem strikes Troll as a frustration vote about the inability to communicate his thoughts in a way that SpreX will accept.

On the whole Troll would put Artem as slightly scummy but not for his votes. On a related note, SpyreX does seem to be less willing than Troll would like to hear Artem's views on bandwagons and meta and the reasons that him has for voting Artem no impress Troll all that much.

springlullaby seem to be stalling rather than contributing. Troll be sure that Troll will shock no one with a

Vote: springlullaby

. In addition to the lack of participation we have post 164 (asking the mod for information about scum's pre-game chatting chances) which strikes Troll as designed to maker her look like she no had that information more than anything else. There no be much to work with here and Troll dislikes what Troll sees. If springlullaby were to be lynched and come up scum then Artem and Ectomancer would be good paths to pursue based on what them have said about her. Porkens strikes Troll as an unlikely partner for her at this time.

populartajo also be worth watching. Him was posting a fair amount in the thread up till Troll asked why him no had time to get out of what him thought of as the random voting stage. Troll accepted his response but then we haven't seen anything since then. Troll asked why him no had done his reread because him had a fair amount of quick back and forth with Adel, Porkens and Vi but nothing which does much to add to the scum hunting.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

First off, Ectomancer, do what you need to to take care of yourself. Keep us updated if you can but know that your physical and mental health is more important than this game.

On the whole Troll would put Artem as slightly scummy but not for his votes. On a related note, SpyreX does seem to be less willing than Troll would like to hear Artem's views on bandwagons and meta and the reasons that him has for voting Artem no impress Troll all that much.

So your stance on the two squabbling townies is that they're both slightly scummy, but you're staying well away from either for the time being while essentially fanning the flames by agreeing with both of them? That's... uncomforting.

The assertion that both Artem and SpyreX be townies here nicely done there and consistent with Elmo's stated views but in any case, it seems that Troll no was clear. Troll's read on SpyreX at this time actually be a slight town read. Troll was trying to say that SpyreX's vote for Artem no be for what Troll considers ideal reasons and that him seems to be unwilling to accept the difference in opinion about bandwagonning that Artem be expressing does be a bit of an issue. SpyreX be following his take on what be good play to decide that Artem be likely to be scum. Troll no fully agrees with his points but Troll disagrees with people about ideal play on a somewhat regular basis so that no offends Troll particularly. What SpyreX be doing be following a lead with a good deal of effort without throwing every possible argument at Artem. Him be sticking to his theory to make a case. To Troll that be more likely town than scum behavior.

According to you, I'm scum because...I have not posted during 5 days?
What do you think I would accomplish as scum by 'stalling'?
As for the 164 post, which is a repeat of Porkens' argument, see my previous post.

And if I'm scum Artem and Ectomancer would be my buddy because they defended me? And Porkens because he voted me?

Well, Troll no be at all sure that springlullaby be scum and she has been posting so that no be it. It be the posting without contributing to the information pool. Stalling through the start of the game allows one to assess the mood of the game and then voice ones suspicions accordingly. It gives us less to compare to when we look at your actions. Your current vote on Artem be an example of how this could be beneficial for scum. It be a vote that Troll no objects to on it's own as Troll does find Artem suspicious (even for some of the reasons you give) but the fact that it comes when many others have already expressed unease with Artem's play be convenient. We no had any prior reads from you on Artem to compare it to.

As for post 164:

A quick question before posting my thoughts,

MOD:

were scum allowed to talk before the game?

Troll can certainly think of a couple reasons why this might be worth asking and if springlullaby would like to give particular interactions that she saw that be fine (if springlullaby would prefer not to Troll can accept that reluctance as well) but it would surprise Troll if there were no reactions at all that springlullaby could have given that would not compromise the information that might be gained by having the question answered. Putting off all contributions until this question be answered be troublesome. Further, Troll no cares for the the implication that you no know the answer to the question. It could easily be true but the way it be asked that strikes Troll as a large part of the motivation to make the post at all.

As for why Porkens likely be town if you be scum, it be more than just the vote him has cast on you. It be the way the two of you have approached eachother all game. Porken's first post did draw attention to you. Your first post draws attention to him. Porkens, more than most in the game has come back to you. If you both be scum this be much more than distancing would require. If you do flip scum Troll no will rule Porkens out as a partner but him will certainly be lower on the list because of what Troll has seen from both of you.

For Artem and Ectomancer, it be more than just a defense of you. It be the idea that it be OK for you to lurk. Neither one be saying that you be town. Both be giving reasons not to make a read on you yet which be noteworthy. Again, should you turn up scum Troll no will simply assume that one or both of them must be your partner but them will be looking at more closely.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The game aside I think that Porkens didn't parse Ectomancer's post and this is important enough to make sure everyone is clear on it. Ectomancer didn't say he was hurt real bad but rather that he had been real bad. The implications are that he hurt himself for whatever reason in a way that requires hospitalization. The last thing that I think any of us want to do is make Ectomancer feel that he has to worry about this game. That he's posted here to let us know what is happening is great. If he's comfortable sharing what's happening then I for one am willing to listen and I hope others are as well.

I'm not a big fan of assigning blame in this sort of situation so I'm not going to blindly follow Ectomancer's lead here and say that the situation is due to him being bad. He's made it clear that he's trying a variety of drugs to help him through what he's going through and I think that both that's wonderful to hear and that I'm honored that he's willing to share it. If the prescription that they were trying out wasn't suitable (as it sounds was the case) then I hope that there were no lasting detrimental effects.

Anything other than support for a fellow scummer in this situation is unacceptable. I don't for an instant suspect that he would fake the sort of trauma that he's expressed simply to change the course of a game. If I had to think that way I wouldn't be here playing these games. Ectomancer knows the state he's in better than any of the rest of us. If he feels that he's up to continuing the game then I'm all for that but if he chooses to be replaced I'm not going to hold it against him at all.

Ectomancer, like I said before, do what you need to do for yourself to be healthy at this time. I don't claim to know everything you're going through now but you will be in my thoughts. If you'd like to talk about anything non-game related you're welcome to PM me. I don't have any insight but I am able to listen.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The relevant following question be: Now that s-lully has responded, be Troll satisfied with her and be Troll ready to vote elsewhere?

Vi no really sure what to make of Troll's ideas about scumpairings, but Vi dislike making pairs before anyone actually flips.

Actually Troll plans to leave Troll's vote where it be for now. Troll finds her to be as likely scum as any just now and would like to see what springlullaby has to say about people's responses to what she has said. For the scumpairings (which be a stronger term than Troll would have used), Troll thinks that connections that be of interest between players be a part of the reason to vote. Them no will always indicate scum or town but them be part of the process. Noting them has the benefit of getting them public earlier so that more people have a chance to think about them and it can get reactions.

populartajo, Troll sees that you have looked through the game at this point though the path from your observations to your conclusions be a bit murky in some cases. Troll wonders if you could explain what it is that makes Herodotus your clear first choice for a vote at this time?

Adel, does it be time to talk about your vote for SpyreX yet or do you still be waiting to see what people will do?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll be back from an unexpectedly horrid weekend. Troll needs to look at what has been said since Thursday but Troll will be posting this afternoon and wanted to let all know what timing to expect.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll wants to address things that were said in springlullaby's Post 263. Quoting all of the conversation will be a waste of space but at the same time it will be relevant to what Troll has to say. Troll will be quoting selectively here and encourages all who no get the context from the quote alone to refer back to the original post.

This is a justification of your vote, and what you are justifying is a vote on someone who has not posted during 5 days, 3 of which were weekend absence. Your complaints about my vote on Artem having no precedence is especially weak and actually quite the unfair argument, were I town and truthful in my motives, there is nothing that I could do about it.

Troll be voting for someone who might have been V/LA over a weekend but then started posting that she was reading when she got prodded on Monday, followed with the question to the mod, posted a single question about the posts just before it on Tuesday and finally got to contributing on Wednesday. Again, if you had something holding you back about some interactions on Monday when you asked the mod the question that no be a reason to give nothing past that.

Troll no was complaining about springlullaby's vote on Artem particularly. Troll said that Troll no had an issue with it on it's own. Troll was answering springlullaby's question about what benefit stalling might have.

Well, what do you expect me to answer you. I posted that question because it crossed my mind after catching up, and did it independently of game analysis because it was a short question and took no time at all. I hadn't gotten around to write my thoughts down at that point yet, in fact I wouldn't have the time to do it before 1 day afterward. I'm sure my use of tenses is a mess here but I can't be bummed to figure it out.

Here again what you write is a justification of your vote describing a plausible scummy explanation of my action whereas disregarding the fact that it is not the likeliest. The fact that you took 1 serious big paragraph to write it is nothing positive in my book. The following: "Troll no cares for the the implication that you no know the answer to the question" is particularly inane and unfair, were I town, don't you think that I would indeed not know the answer to the question?

If springlullaby had made her time limitations clear at the time it might have not have been an issue. Right now Troll looks back and sees none of that information available when it would have been relevant. Troll simply sees a statement that springlullaby was reading and a couple hours later a question to the mod. Troll also stands by Troll's statement about not caring for the implication. If you be town then it be clear you no know it but the post still reads to Troll like an attempt to bring this idea up whether it be true or not.

If springlullaby be town then Troll no has any particular read on Porkens based on that. Troll simply believes that it be unlikely that two scum would have interacted the way that you did at the start of the game. You could both be town or it could be one town and one scum but Troll finds the both scum scenario to be implausible.

For Artem and Ectomancer, it be more than just a defense of you. It be the idea that it be OK for you to lurk. Neither one be saying that you be town. Both be giving reasons not to make a read on you yet which be noteworthy. Again, should you turn up scum Troll no will simply assume that one or both of them must be your partner but them will be looking at more closely.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Firstly this is technically false, Artem gave me a town read. Secondly, asking me to be accountable for Artem and Ectomancer's actions is both unfair and scummy.

No, it be technically true. Artem said you be playing like you have in past games with him when you were town. Him no said you were town this time. Beyond that, Troll no be using what Artem and Ectomancer be saying about you as a reason to vote for you. Troll was again answering a question you asked. In this case Troll was explaining why it would be worth looking at them should you flip scum.

Zorblag, I'm noting with interest here that you say you agree with some of the reasons indicting Artem's guilt, that you say "you could even vote him", and that you even suspect him of being 'my buddy', all this while voting for me. This strikes me as doubly strange because, beyond the fact that it is unusual, I judge there to be better and stronger reasons to be voting Artem than your vote on me which amounts to 5 days lurkerhunt and a second point which is quite inane.

So here is the question for you. How would you judge my scumminess in comparison to Artem's? Why?

Now now, you are not allowed to turn into saying that I'm blame shifting. I'm asking this because in the event of Artem flipping scum, which I think is going to happen more and more, I see your post here to be soft distancing from Artem by saying that you find him scummy while not voting for him, and at the same time setting a mislynch by implicating me as Artem's scumbuddy. And if Artem flips scum, I want your written words here on why you are not voting him despite saying that he is scummy, and why you are pushing me on what I see as a weaker case.

OK, first off, where does Troll say "you could even vote him" or even "Troll could even vote him" for that matter? Troll further no be accusing Artem of being your buddy. Troll just be saying that should you be scum Artem (and Ectomancer) be more likely to be scum. It no be a biconditional; the implication only goes one way.

Troll also no appreciates the implication that Troll will try to avoid your question. Had Troll been avoiding answering question previously in this game it might be different but the tone you be taking here simply strikes Troll as condescending and an attempt to make it look as though Troll be attempting to dodge questions.

As Troll said previously, there be aspects of Artem's play that Troll no has cared for but springlullaby currently seems more likely to be scum to Troll. Artem has said some things that Troll disagrees with and which strike Troll as potentially scummy but them be fairly minor. When Troll cast the vote for springlullaby it was due to the inactivity and the reaction to Porken's initial post as much as anything else but now what Troll finds suspicions be how springlullaby be dealing with any attention at all. Troll simply be pointing out what Troll dislikes about springlullaby's play and answering the questions that she has asked and the response has been to take what Troll has said out of context and argue that there be no case at all. Troll no be trying to convince everyone to vote for springlullaby; Troll will let them make their decisions on their own as Troll always does but springlullaby still be acting in what Troll considers to be a scummy manner.

Troll will try to find the time to look through springlullaby's previous games carefully to assess this behavior against what she has done in the past but Troll's time for the game be limited at the moment. If any others would care to comment about the similarity to what she be doing now with what she has done as scum in the past Troll be happy to listen to it.

Hm. Troll's 229 seems awfully careful not to interpret anything other than lack of contribution as scummy. Artem's vote being put down as a "frustration vote" seems a bit of a reach to me; note that the vote came in 220 and the expression of frustration only in 223, after another SpyreX post debunking most of the material Artem had.

Troll would say that the frustration from Artem be coming through in post 220. One can be frustrated without saying it explicitly and the arguments Artem be giving at that time strike Troll as frustration. It also strikes Troll as odd that the post from Troll in which people accuse Troll of only disliking inactivity be Post 229 but perhaps that be because Troll was voting for inactivity as much as anything else. Troll be talking about a number of plays there which Troll finds interesting. For Artem in particular Troll gives a list of things him had done which Troll found on the scummy side.

I want a rough stance from everyone on {Spring, Troll, Herod, Korts}.

Troll would say springlullaby be scummy and Herodotus and Korts be neutral (with Korts tentatively town).

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll be voting for someone who might have been V/LA over a weekend but then started posting that she was reading when she got prodded on Monday, followed with the question to the mod, posted a single question about the posts just before it on Tuesday and finally got to contributing on Wednesday. Again, if you had something holding you back about some interactions on Monday when you asked the mod the question that no be a reason to give nothing past that.

So if I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that s-lullaby deliberately stalled her post until Wednesday when she had something ready(ish) on Monday. Calling someone out for lurking is simple enough, but you seem to be giving a somewhat detailed schedule of s-lully's lurking...?

Troll be basing that schedule on what springlullaby said in post 233:

If you are meant to ask why I asked that question, it's because it crossed my mind while reading some interractions; it is a relevant question because it give an idea as to scum prepardness and it is one which would have deserved a public answer.

Troll took this to mean that springlullaby did have something to comment on on Monday when she asked the question but was putting it off. Troll can accept that springlullaby could have been busy and not had time to make the posts but there no was any indication that this was the case based on what she posted during that span.

Troll be fairly unimpressed by populartajo's answer to Troll's question (which him quoted as though it were from Herodotus but that no trouble's Troll too much) in post 350:

populartajo, Troll sees that you have looked through the game at this point though the path from your observations to your conclusions be a bit murky in some cases. Troll wonders if you could explain what it is that makes Herodotus your clear first choice for a vote at this time?

Hero is the only player that has caught my attention since page 2. Also this:

Really, the only one that hasnt given me protown vibes is Hero. There is a group that feels obvtown than the rest (town group) and also lotsa people feeling prob town (the fact that the elite is playing here prob is the reason) in the neutral groupings.

Saying that Herodotus be the only one that has caught his attention since day two no explains why Herodotus be the clear choice for the lynch any more than the previous post had. That much was clear but it no goes into the reasons why Herodotus has caught pupulartajo's attention. Further, having at least probably town reads on everyone else at this stage in the game be surprising. That the neutral leaning scummy classification for Adel and Troll be because populartajo no finds either to be obvious town seems something of a copout when comined with that. Placing springlullaby into the category based on more familiarity with her also no gives Troll any more to work with.

On the whole Troll agrees with what Herodotus has been saying about populartajo. Troll no be seeing an attempt to find scum and looking active by asking questions that have already been answered previously no seems productive. If populartajo be willing to classify Adel, springlullaby and Troll as neutral, leaning scum then Troll does agree that it be fair to expect an answer about what scum strategy might be being followed.

unvote

,

Vote: populartajo

springlullaby has played a game that be overly reactive since her V/LA but at least she be taking stances on players that can be used later. populartajo seems to be tunneling on Herodotus and not finding anyone else scummy which be a problem for Troll.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll has a bit of catching up to do here. The name dropping idea be an interesting one though Troll will have to ask some questions to clear a few things up.

SpyreX, do you be including quoted parts of the posts? Vi's mentioning of Troll seems on the high side but Vi does quote Troll more than most and Troll uses the word Troll much.

Zorblag has the biggest difference between who he talks about the most, and who he talks about the least.

Do you be using some metric other than the max - min here (or perhaps ratio of max/min) or do you be looking at who has talked about Troll rather than who Troll has talked about? Or does Troll have those confused somehow? The way Troll be reading the data your statement there seems odd.

Korts is very quiet on the subject of springlullaby, quieter than his average on Herodotus (is this fair? hm), and about average on Zorblag.

That be an interesting take on those numbers as Troll reads them. Troll also be a bit curious about why you no did look at what Troll has said about Herodotus, Korts and springlullaby given the rest of post 448.

There be other things to say as well but Troll no has time this morning. Troll does see some questions addressed to Troll which Troll will get to.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

That lynching be on the sudden side. Troll thinks that the bullet game be more likely to help the scum than the town so Troll will decline to participate in it. Troll no would have voted Herodotus at this point but Troll no had a particularly town read on him and no objects to the votes other than the sudden nature of the last couple. Despite what has been said about not realizing how close to lynch Herodotus was it be interesting to note that when Porkens put Artem at his 5th vote back in post 273, despite the fact that him was in a hurry at the time him was able to identify the fact that him was putting Artem at L-2.

@ Elmo, Troll sticks by Troll's statement that populartajo was tunneling on Herodotus. Him said him had looked at everyone and mentioned all the names but that no means that him has been considering anyone other than Herodotus as scum since Herodotus caught his eye back in posts 31 and 32. The reasons that him was giving for being suspicious of Herodotus were far from overwhelming to the point of making everyone else's actions pale in comparison which be Troll's take on his stance.

Troll no accused Elmo of the same position because, although Elmo was voting for Herodotus and pushing for his lynch, him was able to identify others as suspicious and there were clear indications that the actions of all were at least being considered. It actually be a bit surprising to Troll that populartajo's play seems to have done nothing to make Elmo suspicious if Troll be reading the color coding in post 412 correctly.

@ Everyone, up till now Troll would say that Troll has played an fairly unimpressive game. It no has been intentional but looking back that be how Troll sees it. It has however given Troll a chance to see how people react to it. Troll be pretty pleased with Korts and Vi in this regard. Troll no objects to the points them have raised and Troll has tried to address them. Them had the chance to push a case against Troll harder but appeared to be interested in seeing how Troll would continue to play. Troll no thinks that Troll has dropped off the map for either which be as it should but them have been looking at the game with a reasonable amount of attention.

Troll no actually objects to springlullaby's trouble with Troll either. Troll has pushed a case on her and the case still be one Troll likes (her game no has given much information, has been reactive and and has had plenty of chances to be opportunistic) but the reaction to Troll seems like pretty natural play from someone who be under some pressure.

Troll actually dislikes Artem's stated reason for thinking that Troll likely be town.

I've already given my stance on three of those. Troll strikes me as pro-town. I like that he sticks to his guns when challenged about his points/playstyle.

Troll likes to think that this be true but Troll no sees that it should be any indication of alignment in others when them do something along these lines. Further, Troll tossed out some mild, largely unexplained objections in the direction of things that Artem had said somewhat early in the game and this passed by without comment (at least from Artem.) Troll was prepared to follow through with bringing up particulars but this no proved necessary. On the whole, Artem's take on Troll no be what Troll expects.

Troll has talked about Troll's thoughts on populartajo's reactions to Troll. Them boil down to it being worse in Troll's opinion to find Troll more likely to be scum than most in the game because Troll no be obv town to him but still more likely to be town than scum. Troll objected when Troll was accused of fence sitting earlier in the game but Troll will raise the same objection here about populartajo. Troll would actually have been much more comfortable if populartajo was simply able to decide that Troll was acting scummy.

Troll likes Elmo's reaction to Troll less than those of Vi and Korts for some reason. Troll still be trying to pin down exactly why.

For most others, if them have expressed an opinion of Troll it has been in as an answer to Elmo's questions about general feelings for Herodotus, Korts, springlullaby and Troll. Most of the responses seemed to be that Troll was mildly or somewhat scummy. These felt appropriate. As Troll says, Troll has played an unimpressive game. Those who no have taken a stance on Troll at all Troll probably finds more suspicious than not if only because of the way Troll would be thinking of using someone who played like Troll had down the line were Troll scum. It be the sort of play that makes Troll think that the player can be used later on in the game to mislynch when it be needed if them be left to their own devices for now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll gives warm welcome to DrippingGoofball.

Troll finds SpyreX's claim to be particularly unsurprising given what was said in twilight yesterday. Him might be an SK (though as Elmo says, this no be behavior that be particularly likely to lead to a win for an SK) and him might have been scum setting up the kill of Artem (which would mean that someone else killed populartajo which no strikes Troll as completely unreasonable but which no be Troll's first guess) but in any case, Troll be no particularly doubts that him was responsible for Artem's death and Troll be inclined to wait another day before dealing with him in any case. Adel seemed to be indicating that him had something to work with and should him plan to present that Troll will listen but SpyreX no be a large priority for Troll at this time.

springlullaby's vote does interest Troll. In light of Post 407 (which be the latest set of reads springlullaby seems to have given) Troll wonders why it is that Vi be the one that springlullaby would like to see pressured at this time?

@Adel, Troll still be interested in Adel's answer to this question Troll asked about Post 442:

Zorblag has the biggest difference between who he talks about the most, and who he talks about the least.

Do you be using some metric other than the max - min here (or perhaps ratio of max/min) or do you be looking at who has talked about Troll rather than who Troll has talked about? Or does Troll have those confused somehow? The way Troll be reading the data your statement there seems odd.

Troll thinks Troll knows the answer but would like to hear what Adel will say.

@Elmo, Troll thinks that it be Elmo's stance regarding populartajo that makes Elmo's reactions to Troll less appealing. Now that him has flipped roleblocker Troll can see more reason for him to be acting the way him was and not sharing his suspicions more but Troll definitely found populartajo's play to be troubling in ways that Elmo seemed unable to accept. Elmo's inquiries thus felt less natural to Troll than those of Korts or Vi. Troll finds Elmo's reaction to populartajo's death no more appealing offhand.

@Vi, Troll's post 570 was meant to be some end of the day thoughts (largely on how others had interacted with Troll) rather than a full suspicion list. Yesterday Troll would have listed Artem, Elmo, populartajo and springlullaby as Troll's top suspects. Clearly Troll's feelings about Artem and populartajo were wrong. Just now Troll's thoughts still start with Elmo and springlullaby. Past that it would likely be Porkens and Ectomancer that Troll has the most concerns about.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Elmo, was it the general play? The lack of expression of suspicions was the most troubling aspect for Troll (though the lack of other content was an issue as well.) Can you point Troll to any other specific games you might have in mind where you picked up that meta?

As for springlullaby, Troll does still find her more likely to be scum than most so lynching would be one option. The pressure of a wagon might get more information to work with though it depends on how much she continues to play in a reactive way. Either of those options would be furthered by

Vote: springlullaby

and so Troll will.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Adel, that be largely what Troll thought. Troll was just looking for confirmation as Elmo's response to that made it somewhat ambiguous if Troll's memory serves. Did there be alternate patterns that Adel found worth mentioning given a corrected reading?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Elmo, Troll will take a look at those. Them might help Troll's interpretation.

Adel, Troll thanks for the response.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Elmo, Crackers mafia was indeed interesting. If that be a part of the base Elmo be using to judge his information about populartajo on it does explain much. Troll's suspicions do now be reduced.

As for Troll's day one play, it be up to you how to take it. Troll will post some thoughts when the game be over as Troll thinks Troll has figured a few things about the dynamic that occurred but for now Troll will simply let people react to it as them will.

springlullaby, when did you first notice this about Vi?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The inconsistency in Vi's play be what Troll had in mind. When you voted Vi at the start of the day (4 hours or so ago) had this been an issue for you?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

So was there any reason that you picked Vi out in particular? Post 621 indicated to Troll that this was your reason but it seems that no was the case.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll will let springlullaby talk to Vi for a bit then and see where that conversation goes. Troll's vote be largely based on what Troll said yesterday which Troll knows that springlullaby no loves but Troll can live with that. Should Troll see a reason to move Troll's vote Troll will.

Actually, a question Troll has for everyone be what did you think of populartajo's play as of the end of day one? Troll knows him was town now so Troll no needs any in depth answer at all but Troll be curious.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Assumptions:
1. SpryeX is not mafia and pulling an incredible gambit
2. Tajo was killed by the mafia group
3. At least one member of the scum group has played with Tajo before (probably more)
4. The mafia group includes 3 players

Living players that stated that they have played with Tajo within the last 6 months: SpyreX, springlullaby, Zorblag, Vi (assuming he meant "tajo" when he wrote "taco"), Adel. I know that Elmo is familiar with Tajo, and so is DGB.

Conclusion: The mafia group includes one (and probably two; possibly three) out of (Adel, Elmo, DGB, springlullaby, SpyreX, Vi, Zorblag) .. which basically only leaves out Porkens and Ecto.

The thing that strikes Troll immediately when Troll reads this be that the only premise that Adel actually needed to reach that conclusion was #4. If there be 3 mafia members out of 9 players then any group of 7 players must contain at least one mafia member by the pigeon hole principle. Troll would expect Adel to see that right away as well though it be hard to judge how someone else's reasoning would work and Troll be inclined to take into account here that this no be what anyone else thus far has focused on. In any case, Troll's initial reaction was something along the lines of what Ectomancer said about it being an attempt to make a group of Ectomancer and Porkens somehow (though Adel no be clearing either of them here as no scum groups have actually been ruled out by the argument.)

The assumption that someone who be familiar with populartajo's play be the one responsible for pushing his lynch does strike Troll as interesting. That be why Troll asked:

Actually, a question Troll has for everyone be what did you think of populartajo's play as of the end of day one? Troll knows him was town now so Troll no needs any in depth answer at all but Troll be curious.

Troll's experience with populartajo was in a game that still be ongoing so Troll no can say much about it beyond the fact that populartajo still be alive and Troll be dead (assuming Troll can even say that much.) Troll no has a read for populartajo's town play vs. scum play based on it yet (though for the sort of argument Adel was making that no matters if Troll was scum and knew that populartajo wasn't as Troll would still have a basic feel for the play to work with.) Troll's opinions about populartajo do be what Troll expressed throughout day one and Troll stands by them; Troll found him scummy based on what him was doing and not doing but Troll acknowledges that others no would have any reason to believe that Troll be telling the truth about this. What be more pertinent to the rest of you might be what others thought of populartajo's play (or at least expressed publicly about it.) Troll might go back and see what there is to be found now that Troll has said this and future answers to Troll's questions be rendered largely meaningless.

Troll do be interested in hearing what people have to say about Adel's theory that Vi and Troll be scum together. That no be one of the two guesses Troll might have made about what Adel had in mind when he asked if anyone knew why he was voting for Troll (Troll's initial guesses were some discussion issues and votes involving populartajo in particula.) Troll thinks Troll can see where Adel might come up with the thought but Troll would like to know whether others think them might have as well (and if them can correctly give something close to the case Adel might have in mind.)

Adel, does it just be the connections between Troll and Vi that you have in mind with your vote or do you have any questions Troll might address beyond that? This no was the sort of push Troll expected you would start with this day but Troll can think of a couple things you might be doing with it and will let you speak for yourself.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll did go back and look at what people had said about populartajo and typed up the following post this morning. Troll decided not to post it at the time as after Troll read over it it no seemed to add that much to the game. The topic still be getting some play though so Troll will put it here now. Troll's basic conclusion be that trying to figure out who be responsible for the kill now be like trying to figure out most other night one kills on day two in games Troll has played in, an exercise in WIFOM for the most part. If Adel would like to pursue the meta on connections Troll no would mind seeing the result but this seems to be a topic that be unlikely to bear much of use to Troll at this time. Troll self-reported Troll's experience with populartajo in post 662 when it was brought up the first time but this passed without comment.


************


So here be the last things that Troll can find that people said about populartajo during day one:

lol, when did I say that tajo was scum? I simply wanted him to pay more attention to this game, and give opportunistic scum a chance to wagon with me.

Seriously though, if town, I would shoot either Elmo or Tajo, probably tajo for convenient lurking.

And similar to what I said about tajo, I don't see why it would be tunnelling.

For Korts, the one mention was in the responses to Adel's initial questions. Troll no can find any direct thoughts about populartajo from Korts on day one.

I'm not for the tajo wagon a.t.m.. Primarily because it's being driven by Adel who still hasn't posted her reasons/motivations for a couple of major points.

Scummy (people I'm feeling wishy washy about and potential lynches, or not)

Zorblag - This one is more nebulous and I kinda fear I'm being OMGUSY so I'll make one reply/question post.
Porkens - Weak play and lazy votes, I'm not sure I buy the towntells consisting pretty much exclusively of bravado.
Adel - Scummy with promises of amend, I don't mind being patient a little longer for the delivery, but not too long.
Herodotus - Opaque play, nothing stray too much in scum territory, nothing stray in town. Been weaker lately.
populartajo - General sloppy impression and hard to judge.

For SpyreX it be the name dropping posts. Troll no sees any mention of how suspicious SpyreX finds populartajo on day one.

Troll 455 needs more catching up. taco needs replacement and s-lully needs to exist.

Though the more interesting post by Vi prior to that was:

As far as I can tell - not that I did much looking into it - tajo was (is?) indeed lurking. However, by the time I saw Adel calling him out for it tajo had already responded with his catch-up wall, with which I didn't have many immediate problems. Right now I'm not sure either way on him, though, as that bit where he essentially justified seeing you as the only scummy person in the game is made of hate. And this game is on his second page of most recent posts by him... That said, it's hard for me to hate the first point considering as of now I think YOU are scum.

Troll has talked about Troll's thoughts on populartajo's reactions to Troll. Them boil down to it being worse in Troll's opinion to find Troll more likely to be scum than most in the game because Troll no be obv town to him but still more likely to be town than scum. Troll objected when Troll was accused of fence sitting earlier in the game but Troll will raise the same objection here about populartajo. Troll would actually have been much more comfortable if populartajo was simply able to decide that Troll was acting scummy.

Troll's quote from Elmo no be that infomative but Elmo's stance on populartajo be fairly clear (and consistent.) Elmo found populartajo to be playing his town game day one. Elmo was the only one to express this view day one so far as Troll can tell. Korts, Porkens and SpyreX largely no expressed any opinions at all. Adel's final expressed view be one that could be taken to mean Adel found him likely to be town or that him no had a strong opinion (among other things.) Ectomancer brought the lurking up late in the game and lack of content much earlier; Troll thinks that him was giving a mild negative read. Vi's view seems to be neutral but not thrilled with the focus on Herodotus or lack of content. springlullaby puts populartajo in the scummy category (though last on her list) and Troll thinks that Troll was the one who was most vocal about qualms with populartajo's play.

On the whole, populartajo no seems to have been considered strongly town by any other than Elmo and no seems to have been that suspect compared to others to any beyond Troll. If his kill was pushed through by someone who was familiar with the play it would surprise Troll if it was Elmo that was doing it; that makes Elmo's stance too blatant (Troll recognizes this be WIFOM but it just be unnecessary work on Elmo's part.) Adel's thought that the kill might have been made just to give him trouble seems unlikely as well. There be any number of reasons that the kill could have been chosen but it also looks to Troll like it would have been a safe one to make (populartajo seems unlikely to have been protected given what people were saying) that no would eliminate a strong suspect from many so that be Troll's best guess as to why populartajo was the one to go.

On another note, Troll thinks this was a quote Vi was looking for in post 593.

Sooooo... is Artem scummy, or null, or what for doing basically that?

This was entirely referencing my own method of choosing targets and not letting up until we have material. As far as te 3 go, Spyrex is a null, Porkens is +1 scum and Tajo is +2 scum.

I realize you're on meds (hope you get better, by the way) but why no mention of Artem, even though it is him the original question was about?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

So first off, Troll did see that SpyreX was indicating that him only had one shot at the start of today which be why Troll said Troll be inclined to wait another day to deal with him (so that Troll could see if there was a second kill tonight.) Troll at this time has no intention to vote for SpyreX this day.

Troll has been trying to figure out what Adel be up to today. Troll thinks that the idea that both Adel and SpyreX be town be somewhat plausible but Adel's poking at Troll has been done in a way that no be particularly reassuring. Troll no be the sort to take much offense when others find problems with Troll's play but here be some of what has Troll on edge.

Adel never did get around to giving the reasons that Vi and Troll were likely to be mafia together but it was implied that voting patterns were at least part of it by:

[@voting Zorblag:]

does anyone else see why?

Does it have to do with the vote count analysis and being in your bracketed group of meta-players?

[@voting Zorblag:]

does anyone else see why?

Does it have to do with being in your bracketed group of meta-players?

nope

Troll altered the quote tags on the second one just a bit to make it easier to work with but the omission be clear. Troll would very much like to see the case that Adel to verify that it existed at the very least and check for strength. Troll realizes that Adel no be pushing it now but a potential argument could be made Troll thinks.

@Adel, if you think Vi and Troll are scum together, why did you choose to vote Troll over Vi?

Troll has played 5 games as scum, and won 4. He is the more threatening scum player.

That be true. Troll also has yet to lose a game as town (Troll has three wins and two abandonded games) which Troll be fairly certain that Adel knows as well. Adel does be voting for Troll at the time but Troll's record indicates that Troll be a dangerous mafia member or a helpful town member and without details for the case on Troll this statement feels like it be a substitution for a case.

Of course, really Troll's record be much better than Troll's skill at for both teams and it be due in largest part to the other teams playing poorly rather than anything exceptional on Troll's part. It be a pretty tiny sample which Adel knows; it be all him had to work with and Vi's record as scum be even smaller but that no makes it a strong indicator of anything.

Elmo and Troll seem pro-town to many players, but looking at their games as scum I think demonstrates that the reasons why some players here think they are town are about the same as the mistaken townies in thier games as scum.

The grouping with Elmo here be interesting. Many have said that them think that Elmo be town, Troll no thinks that Troll actually looks pro-town to that many at this time (or when the statement was made.) Again, Troll recognizes that Adel was still voting for Troll when this was said and that him had a reason to emphasize the reasons not to trust Troll but this one seems invented as applied to Troll. Perhaps Troll was wrong and others did think that Troll was likely to be town but the only one Troll particularly remembers saying that was Artem (and Troll complained about the reasons him gave with Troll's last post on day one.)

Troll supposes that the trouble Troll has here be that Adel be putting on supports to a case against Troll without presenting the case itself and the supports being given no be so clear cut as them being presented as. Again, it would help Troll much if Troll knew why Adel thought Vi and Troll were likely scum partners so Troll could see the foundation for this other stuff. Without that it seems that Adel be trying to make Troll look like dangerous scum based on exaggerations of things that have happened in other games.

Beyond this, Troll did take a look at NG 770 (the one where Elmo said that Howard Roark's play was pro-town) to see how applicable it be. There Elmo made the statement very early in the game before Howard Roark had said much at all. As the day continued there was very little suspicion of Howard Roark by other players and Elmo's stated reason for killing him was that him was the strongest player that was unlikely to be protected by the doc. In this game Elmo was indicating that populartajo was town towards the end of the day, others had expressed suspicion of him and Troll feels that him played a much less helpful game here than Howard Roark did in the other game. Troll still feels that it be unlikely that Elmo would have the primary one who pushed for a populartajo kill last night. Mind you, Troll no be saying that Elmo no could be in the mafia because of this; just that populartajo's dying no raises his chances of being scum in Troll's opinion.

@Ectomancer, Troll should probably be clear here:

@Spyrex - I can see where there were different tacts, but my hackles were raised, and at least Troll seemed to get a similiar impression. It was something I wanted nipped in the bud.

Troll just pointed out that Adel seemed to be doing something along those lines. Troll no had SpyreX in mind so much.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

If Adel did have a decent case for Zorblag and Vi being scum together in mind when he voted Troll earlier then Troll be inclined to listen to lean towards the two misguided town players take on Adel and SpyreX. Were that the case Troll would certainly think that Porkens be worth looking at which has the advantage of him already getting attention from others. Troll would also be happy enough staying with springlullaby. Given what springlullaby's current focus and that (and also coupled with Troll's previous take on how Vi interacted with Troll's play yesterday) Troll has little interest in voting for Vi at this time. These seem to be the ones that people be looking at just now.

If Adel no had a case to present for Troll and Vi being scum together (or another reason to be acting how him was which Troll thought might be the case at the time) then Troll has enough problems with how Adel went about the first part of this day that Troll be less inclined to think that him just be hung up on parts of SpyreX's play that no bother Troll at this time and instead be attempting to confuse the play this day. Troll would probably vote for Adel were that the situation.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Adel, that be about the case that Troll would have expected if it were a Troll, Vi scumpair you were thinking about. Troll also suspected that an attempt for reactions from us as well as others was part of the reason that the case no was given. Further, Troll expected that you were trying to push Troll to get reactions with the totality of the points involving Troll that you raised early in the game.

Some questions then:

Did you think that many people were giving Troll a pro-town read when you said that? Can you point to anything that lead you to this conclusion? If SpyreX be a one shot vig what does that do to the rest of your suspicions?

A question for SpyreX: Should Adel be town who would you think be most likely to be scum at this point either from a scum team angle or from individual actions?

For everyone: is it your impression that many people find Troll to be pro-town or did earlier in the day? Do you think that Troll be pro-town?

Troll be under the impression that most have Troll neutral to scummy and be trying to confirm this.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Porkens, do you think that others have a pro-town read on Troll?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

SpryreX, do you think that others find Troll to be pro-town?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Vi, do you think that others have a pro-town read on Troll?

Apparently when Troll asked this question Troll no managed to emphasize the more important part. Troll be trying to determine how reasonable Adel's statement that others found Elmo and Troll to be pro-town (Troll sees Adel's clarification to this view.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Can you point to anything that lead you to this conclusion?

MD threads about what make a person "townie" or "protown" I suppose. Do you want me to dig them up?

It no be needed though if you like Troll be happy to look.

If SpyreX be a one shot vig what does that do to the rest of your suspicions?
I'll stick with the (Porkens + Vi) grouping for most scummy.

And what about Ectomancer who has made that list in the past (assuming Troll's memory holds)?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

EBWOP to fix tags:

If SpyreX be a one shot vig what does that do to the rest of your suspicions?

I'll stick with the (Porkens + Vi) grouping for most scummy.

And what about Ectomancer who has made that list in the past (assuming Troll's memory holds)?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

At this point Troll thinks that Adel be more likely to be town than scum. Troll no has interest in lynching him this day. Troll similarly would prefer not to lynch SpyreX or Vi.

Troll's top choices currently be Porkens and springlullaby. If other wagons of interest develop Troll will state opinions about them but Troll no be interested in saying why Troll thinks that others might or might not be town at this time.

Troll would like it much if SpyreX would go through the exercise of assuming that Adel be town and figuring out who be the most likely to be scum based on that. Troll no cares if him changes his vote but Troll wants to see a more what him will come up with.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

No, a gambit still be entirely possible. Troll be basing this on the fact that were Troll in the position Adel has been in Troll might do similar things as town. The main difference be that Adel was drawn into the suspicion of SpyreX which Troll no would have been. Adel has a reputation that Troll thinks be overblown and Troll thinks that Adel buys into it some. This no means that Adel be scum here. Despite all the complaints people have about the lack of flashy results Troll does see attempts to find scum from Adel when Troll looks at the likely motives for Adel's actions.

It also be the case that Troll has been playing a piss poor game for the most part. Adel trying to bring light to that be a big point in Adel's favor given that Troll thinks it was done in a feasible way. Troll probably be the most self centered player here but with that comes introspection and the chance to judge how others be reacting to Troll. It probably colors Troll's game more than it should but Troll will have to live with that.

Troll has to make judgment calls in these games and Troll will do so. In this case Troll judges it more likely that Adel be doing this as town than as scum.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll no be willing to accept that we have lost if both Adel and SpyreX be town. Troll be attempting to get the most out of SpyreX if that be the case. If SpyreX be unable to play along with the hypothetical then so be it but Troll no will be a part of lynching either of the two this day barring a need to prevent a no lynch as things currently stand.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

What does DrippingGoofball's opinion on Vi be anyhow?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

What does SpyreX think of Elmo?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Hmm, and what does DrippingGoofball make of what springlullaby has said about Vi then?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

It also be the case that Troll has been playing a piss poor game for the most part.

You've said this a couple times.. why do you think that is? And what's 'poor' about it specifically? I guess this is an unenviable position to be in, but you put it out there.

Troll suspects that Troll's reasons for saying this be similar to the reasons that Elmo has taken issue with Troll's play. Troll has failed to get traction with the game (possibly until recently, we'll have to see what happens from here) and has been drifting without being much of a force for anything. Like Troll said earlier, Troll has a couple ideas on why this might be the case but Troll would prefer to discuss them after the game.

As for the position, Troll has replaced into games in worse positions than this and at least this time it be Troll who was making the bed Troll now gets to sleep in. Troll will live with it. Well, unless of course Troll gets killed.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Less questioning and self-deprecation and more opinion and evaluation please.

It be an interesting point in the game to start this push on Troll. Troll thinks that Troll has been giving more opinion and evaluation the past couple days than Troll had previously but perhaps Ectomancer disagrees.

To be clear, these are the types of questions that look like 'busy work'.

I'm not having near the problem with understanding the position of these 2 players as I am with Troll.

What does DrippingGoofball's opinion on Vi be anyhow?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

What does SpyreX think of Elmo?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Those questions no were intended to help Troll form opinions on Elmo and Vi but perhaps Ectomancer meant DrippingGoofball and SpyreX.

Troll asked DrippingGoofball what she thinks of Vi when she suggested lynching springlullaby. Troll no has much of an idea of why DrippingGoofball holds the opinions she does on most but her stance on Vi has been particularly hard for Troll to discern. As springlullaby has been looking at Vi of late it seemed worth looking into. Troll's followup on what DrippingGoofball makes of what springlullaby has been saying about Vi be along the same lines. If Ectomancer has a good understanding of DrippingGoofball's positions then him be much better at getting information from her posts than Troll has been this day.

Troll asked SpyreX about Elmo because him had just said that if Adel flips scum partners should include at least one of DrippingGoofball, Ectomancer and Troll. DrippingGoofball have both said that Adel and SpyreX be likely to both be town. Ectomancer has said that SpyreX be town and has moved his vote from Adel to Porkens when the Adel wagon was gaining steam. The other player who seems to be supporting both Adel and SpyreX be Elmo. Troll was curious as to why SpyreX had left him off the list and so asked what him thought about Elmo. His response gave Troll the information Troll wanted.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@DrippingGoofball: Troll sort wants to know how you think Vi and springlullaby each come off based on the entire exchange but if you want particular points to look at how about:

The first thing that springlullaby gives as a reason for her vote be Vi's attitude towards Adel on day one but she says that she noticed that after she had already cast her vote.

springlullaby pushes the point that Vi's claimed read on Adel be neutral and that Vi would expect the analysis to deliver eventually were Adel town or scum. Vi's vote for Adel be for stalling and lack of contribution (at least at the start of the day by Troll's read or the motives that springlullaby be attributing to Vi.)

The two seem to disagree about how springlullaby chose to express suspicions the first day and how effective springlullaby's arguments were (though perhaps that disagreement be one sided).

Do either side of those points (or anything else in the exchange today) resonate with DrippingGoofball in any way?

@Adel: Troll no cares for what looks like an appeal to authority when you say that "the four other players who are better at mafia than you just reached the same tentative conclusion." Troll has come to a tentative conclusion here but Troll wants others to come to their own, not simply believe that because any group of others decide something it probably be true.

As for Troll's stance on the group of Porkens, springlullaby and Vi, Troll does agree that it be likely that at least one of the three be scum. Troll has little interest in voting for Vi today. Troll does find the interactions of Porkens and springlullaby today (compared to yesterday) to be interesting. Yesterday them were among each other's biggest detractors. Today them have been largely oblivious of each other (though Porkens did say that one of springlullaby's posts attacking Adel made her look town.)

@Ectomancer: Troll usually has some reason for asking the questions Troll does but it no always be clear from the questions. You be welcome to ask about them if you no can see it and them trouble you (though at times Troll might defer Troll's answers if revealing the purpose of the questions might influence the chances of getting a useful answer.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll also likes what Elmo has been doing recently. The answers that Porkens and springlullaby have been giving do little to change Troll's opinions thus far and perhaps Troll thinks that Elmo be slightly too gracious to springlullaby in their exchange but Troll no can deny that Troll might say similar things in Elmo's position.

The last question from Elmo (to DrippingGoofball) be one that Troll would like to follow up with though. What is it that has moved Porkens (apparently) down in DrippingGoofball's potential lynches from one of her top choices (as evidenced by the fact that she voted for him) to being suspicious to a lesser extent when compared to Ectomancer, springlullaby and Vi?

That Troll's position in DrippingGoofball's suspicions be as nebulous as it is likely be troublesome to others on the face of it; to Troll it be troubling as a continuation of the interactions that Troll was getting in Lynch All Lurkers mafia (which now be over and can be talked about.) Troll still be trying to decide whether DrippingGoofball would try to manipulate Troll using that and the fact that she was town the last time she interacted with Troll; Troll hopes that she realizes that Troll is able to separate games better than that but many people do like to be flattered (actually, note that flattery be an issue Troll now has with Adel's play also.)

What was the purpose of asking Troll what interactions between springlullaby and Vi were of particular interest? DrippingGoofball's response after Troll pointed out some of them no seemed to take what Troll had said into account at all.

Does DrippingGoofball actually see anything that be scummy thus far or does it just be that some players no have been giving enough town vibes?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

At the risk of looking like Troll be trying to put words in Elmo's mouth Troll would guess that Elmo's stance on Adel be something close to what Troll's be right now. Troll no loves all of Adel's play and there be things that Troll still be trying to work out but it seems that right now there be much better bets for catching scum to pursue at this time. Right now Troll's top priority be lynching scum this day rather than eliminating a player that Troll feels be more likely to be subtle enough to avoid a strong read from Troll. Lynching Adel would probably give as much information as any other lynch but Troll thinks that we can do better than just an information lynch today. Troll thinks we should have a good chance of getting actual scum.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

That would surprise Troll. Troll would bet that we have one or one and a half mistakes we could still make before a mislynch would be a loss. Troll no be trying to outguess the mod here but Troll would expect that the setup no relied on a correct vig kill or all but one correct lynches.

In any case, if a mislynch were to lose the game for us it makes an information lynch even worse than it would be otherwise.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

If there be three scum and SpyreX really do be a one shot vig (and there no be other night kills that we no know about yet) then with no protections a mislynch and night kill leaves us with 7 players tomorrow. That would be LyLo but not a loss (barring potential third party wackiness that Troll hopes we no have to deal with in this game.)

We could lose with a mislynch today in some setups but number no support that being likely.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The numbers there no should actually change what you think the correct lynch be today if you think that Adel clearly be scum. You be thinking that you had to hit scum today with your numbers but Troll would assume that you would prefer to do that today in any case. Has any of the recent discussion changed your view? Does Elmo's summary of his take on your view be correct? If Adel no be lynched do you have a second or third choice?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll vaguely assumes that you be saying that your opinions no have changed though the snarkiness no seems to figure in that heavily even for that. How about the other two questions.

Does Elmo's summary of your views be a reasonable representation?

If Adel no be lynched who would you be most willing to see lynched (keep in mind here that you no even need to assume that Adel be scum, lynching his partners would still by lynching scum if him be scum)?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll assumes that Troll's current stance on Adel be part of Porken's reason for changing what him thinks of Troll since post 801 (and that was only a possible town read so it no be much of a change) and that Elmo be on that list due to the interactions today. Why does Ectomancer make the list? Why does DrippingGoofball no make the list?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

So what would Porkens have to say about this characterization of his play thus far this game?

On day one Porkens actively questioned what most of the players were saying. He did start of find Adel suspicious part way through the day but also continued to question the actions of other players and was generally involved in the discussion and appeared to be trying to find the motives for the posts that people were making. On day two Porkens has been focused primarily on Adel and hasn't given nearly the same level of reactions to the play on the part of other players that he did the first day but has instead resorted to gut feelings and hand waving to explain what people have said.

If that be fair as a characterization then what be the difference from your point of view between day one and day two. If it be unfair then what is incorrect and what counter-examples can you give (simply pointing to posts be fine for counter-examples; Troll no be trying to inspire any massive wall of quotes.)

Actually Troll be happy to have any answer those questions but be most interested in what Porkens has to say.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll gives warm welcome to Lord Gurgi.

Troll has a couple quick questions this morning but will have more to post this afternoon.

I'm going to post one post summarizing my view. And it will be my last post of the day, come hell of high water.

Troll no understands the motivation for this. Does there be some previous indication that springlullaby had planned to take that position or does she be expressing it for the first time? Why would springlullaby not post for the rest of the day?

I don't get why tunnelling in that manner on Adel, someone you've vocally said was town, would make him look more townish to you.

He must really believe her to be scum. It seems a little too dogged to be bus'ing. Though you never know. Seems unlikely.

Does this really be DrippingGoofball's thoughts on Porkens at this time?

@Lord Gurgi: did Ectomancer get left out of your summary of thoughts intentionally or was that an oversight?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Adel, does Porkens's apparent interpretation of cross protect (that you can protect yourself) be correct? Pardon Troll's ignorance here but Troll no be entirely sure what be meant.

Troll, I remember you saying that I was disdainful to you at some point in this game. I'd like you to go back and point out where you picked that vibe now. The reason I'm asking is because I consider the paragraph above to be, as another put it, deep fellatio.

If someone else were to describe your play that way would you take offense at it? Troll's guess be yes based on what Troll has seen but Troll no be sure. In any case, Troll would guess that the the disdain towards Troll you be trying to find was shown (and Troll actually called it condescension but so be it) in Post 263 where springlullaby said:

springlullaby wrote:
Zorblag, I'm noting with interest here that you say you agree with some of the reasons indicting Artem's guilt, that you say "you could even vote him", and that you even suspect him of being 'my buddy', all this while voting for me. This strikes me as doubly strange because, beyond the fact that it is unusual, I judge there to be better and stronger reasons to be voting Artem than your vote on me which amounts to 5 days lurkerhunt and a second point which is quite inane.

So here is the question for you. How would you judge my scumminess in comparison to Artem's? Why?

Now now, you are not allowed to turn into saying that I'm blame shifting. I'm asking this because in the event of Artem flipping scum, which I think is going to happen more and more, I see your post here to be soft distancing from Artem by saying that you find him scummy while not voting for him, and at the same time setting a mislynch by implicating me as Artem's scumbuddy. And if Artem flips scum, I want your written words here on why you are not voting him despite saying that he is scummy, and why you are pushing me on what I see as a weaker case.

Post 324 goes gives Troll's reaction at the time.

Troll thinks that saying that Troll's vote has been parked on springlullaby since day one be a misrepresentation as Troll spent the last part of day one voting for populartajo. In any case, if springlullaby be town then Troll be trying to work out what the scum team be likely to be. The rest of this post will likely give some insight into Troll's thoughts.

I don't get why tunnelling in that manner on Adel, someone you've vocally said was town, would make him look more townish to you.

He must really believe her to be scum. It seems a little too dogged to be bus'ing. Though you never know. Seems unlikely.

Troll has serious issues with this statement from DrippingGoofball and tried to give DrippingGoofball a chance to clarify what she be saying. As DrippingGoofball has made it clear that she thinks that Adel be scum it no makes any sense at all for Porkens to be bussing Adel if Porkens be scum. Scum no can bus town. Them can only bus scum.

To Troll this indicates one of three things:

1. DrippingGoofball misused the term bus unintentionally. Troll was hoping that DrippingGoofball would have something to say about the comment so Troll would have a better chance of determining how likely that was. She declined so Troll be left a bit in the dark. If this be the case then Troll no thinks there be much of a tell here one way or another.

2. DrippingGoofball used the term bus correctly and unintentionally. In that case she knows that Adel be scum and were porkens scum him would be bussing. The only way Troll can see this being the case given the stance DrippingGoofball has taken on Adel be for both of them to be scum together.

3. DrippingGoofball used the term bus intentionally. This could be done by DrippingGoofball as scum to get someone who was watching what be said closely and no be voting Adel (one of Ectomancer, Elmo and Troll) to think that case 2 applied and get Adel lynched without having to cast a vote. In theory that could be done if Adel scum or town but it seems more likely to be done if Adel be town.

For those with more experience with DrippingGoofball than Troll has, does she be careful about how the term bus be used? Can anyone point to a time when she misused it in a case like this?

At this point Troll be most leery of DrippingGoofball. She no be engaging like she did in Lynch All Lurkers (it no even be close) and that be the one game Troll has played with her. She was town there and this behavior be distinctly different. Troll no sees an effort to help determine who the scum be and she be avoiding any answers that take more than a line or two to give.

Troll still be trying to figure out Adel. The claim be a safe one to make in this situation and it no would stop Troll from voting him were Troll to decide to do so. Troll no be quite sure what Troll would expect a mini normal to include but a role blocker, a one shot vig and a one shot doc all with town roles no would have been Troll's first guess. Troll no be calling for it but wonders if anyone thinks a mass claim might be valuable to figure out how feasible Adel's claim be.

Troll no has any particular actions that be clearly pro-town from Adel to point to for Lord Gurgi; Troll has many things that Troll might do as town in that situation and some that be more dubious.

Lord Gurgi inherits SpyreX's position so at this point Troll be assuming him be town unless we have an extra night kill at any point.

As Troll has said, Troll likes some of what Elmo has done today but Elmo plays a game that feels similar to Troll's and Troll knows better than to trust Troll just because Troll might look helpful at times. Troll no would put it past Elmo to be scum at all but now that we have talked about populartajo Troll no has any reasons to think that him do be.

Ectomancer has been less a part of the game than Troll thought for much of today until Troll looked back. Him drew attention at the start and then had the stretch of off posts that Troll can live with. Since then him no has come back to establish much of a presence. Troll could see him being town watching what happens or scum not getting in the way.

Vi continues to say things that Troll can evaluate and Troll feels that leaving Vi till a future day be a wiser choice than voting Vi at this time.

Adel, Ectomancer, Elmo, Lord Gurgi and Vi be the five players Troll has the least interest in voting for this day.

springlullaby will likely be offended by Troll now. She comes across as abrasive and hypocrytical and not being that interested in helping sort things out. Troll be leaning more towards it being personality as we go but Troll no finds her particularly likely to be town at this time.

Porkens has failed to provide compelling arguments this day, and has been much more oblivious or glib than him was most of yesterday. The Herodotus vote also concerns Troll.

DrippingGoofball Troll has talked about already in this post.

Unvote, Vote: DrippingGoofball

Until Troll has some more to make Troll think that she be trying to win this game for the town and a reason to think that the bussing comment was an innocent one Troll thinks that DrippingGoofball be our best current bet at hitting scum this day.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Yes, DrippingGoofball be right, she has said that she thinks Adel be town. That do be what Troll meant to say (and really the rest of Troll's statement there relied on that to make sense.) As DrippingGoofball thinks that Adel be town it no makes sense to talk about Porkens bussing Adel if him be scum. Him would be pushing a mislynch or scum tunneling on town or some other thing but scum can only bus other scum.

Troll no sees anything that clarifies that it be MUTUAL bussing, but even if that do be implied, DrippingGoofball has made it clear that she thinks Adel be town so why bother with that case and ignore the case where Porkens be scum trying to get town Adel mislynched?

Or perhaps mutual bussing has some common meaning other than two scum bussing eachother that be implied there which Troll no be aware of.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

This may seem paradoxical but I tend to believe that the players posting walls-of-text cases against Adel ought to be townies.

So that be Lord Gurgi and Vi? Troll assumes that springlullaby no falls into the category as DrippingGoofball be voting for her. Porkens has gone down in DrippingGoofball's suspicions but Troll suspects him no would fall under that category given his posting this day. Does Vi then be less suspicious now than Porkens or does Troll be reading too much into limited statements?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

How do I look helpful at present?

Troll had in mind Elmo's attempts to get Porkens and springlullaby to give more complete accounts of their reasons for voting when Troll made the statement. Elmo also be answering questions that be asked of him and providing thoughts on players often unprompted. This adds to the information pool we have to work with and Troll finds it helpful.

A number of people have now posted since Troll's post from last night in which Troll pointed out DrippingGoofball's use of bus to describe what Porkens would be doing to Adel if Porkens was scum. Thus far no one other than DrippingGoofball has commented on it. It do be true that Troll used exactly the wrong term to describe DrippingGoofball's stated views of Adel which might have confused the issue some but Troll attempted to clarify that this morning.

Do others be passing that by because them no take issue with it, because them think that Troll be making a mountain out of a terminological molehill, because them no saw what Troll said at all or for some other reason. To Troll it be the most important thing that DrippingGoofball has said this day given the implications and Troll would like some input from others on the topic.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Adel, when did Elmo become obv-town for you? Troll assumes him be given the scum grouping in that last post.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Hmm, Troll might be reading this wrong (Troll has already finished a bottle of win and 4 ciders this afternoon as Troll's last day of teaching for the quarter was today and Troll wanted to celebrate) but it seems that Troll should take from what be said there that Adel be leaving Elmo out of all of his most likely scum groupings despite warnings about Elmo's play. Here Troll be interested in knowing what connections (other than bussing if both be scum) Adel sees between Troll and Porkens or springlullaby. Troll knows that Adel has talked about a potential pairing of Troll and Vi and that be fine. Other than that does Elmo really have fewer connections between the group of Porkens, springlullaby and Vi than Troll does or does it just be the Troll/Vi idea that be the distinction?

Troll also wants to know what Adel thinks of DrippingGoofball's bussing comment but Troll wants to know what all think of that.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

As Adel be replying now and of interest in the bus statement from DrippingGoofball Troll would like to know exactly what Adel makes of it. Does it be a null tell and a likely misuse of the term by a player regardless of alignment, does it be a likely slip from scum or does it be most likely to be a calculated move by scum to frame Adel?

For the rapid fire exchanges, Troll has done a bit of this, probably mostly with Porkens and springlullaby. Troll will be around this afternoon/evening and be happy to have a dialogue with anyone that cares to.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh.

[Zorblag]

That be the one. She was talking about Porkens and she had firmly established that Adel be town.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

EBWOP:

DrippingGoofball had firmly established that she thought Adel was town. Not that Adel actually was town.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

So, Ectomancer, Elmo and Lord Gurgi, do you have a take on Troll's qualm with DrippingGoofball?

Troll's top two lynches would be DrippingGoofball and one of Porkens and springlullaby. Troll knows that this be three rather than two but Troll has trouble deciding which of the other two be scummier and would be willing to vote for either.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

So Lord Gurgi has no Take on her calling Porkens's vote for Adel bussing when she says that she believes Adel to be town?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Lord Gurgi, the quality of a potential bus no be the issue. It be that DrippingGoofball says that Adel be town and the only reasonings she gives for Prokens voting for Adel involve bussing or town tunneling. This indicates that she knows that Adel be scum as Porkens as scum no could bus Adel, it just no be what bus means. If DripingGoofball thinks that a vote from scum Prokens for Adel must be bussing then Adel must believe that both are scum.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Adel, actually, that no be much of an issue for Troll. It fits with what DrippingGoofball had said about other players previously. It be the fact that Porkens would be bussing Adel when Adel be town that has Troll's panties in a bunch.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

If Elmo can clear this up Troll welcomes it. Troll no be looking for a mislynch, and would much prefer a way to reconcile what Troll sees an an inconsistency if that be possible.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll be reading and taking this in. What does Porkens think of what Troll has brought up about DrippingGoofball?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

With three power role claims and a dead role blocker Troll be inclined to think that a mass claim now be of use. Troll expects that all the town power roles have already claimed at this time and limiting scum's ability to make false claims in the future probably be worth it. The claimed and dead town that we have now be more powerful than Troll would expect; any counterclaims would probably be useful at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Ectomancer, if Porkens no be a sane cop that lynch no establishes the claim at all and that many town power roles with a sane cop be unreasonable to expect. Right now Troll be inclined to lynch DrippingGoofball and seeing how the night kills play out or Adel to see if the cop claim be true. That do be a change from what Troll has said before but the situation has changed. Troll's first choice be a mass claim and, barring a counter claim of some power role, a DrippingGoofball lynch as Troll has more reason to think she be scum than anyone else at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Sorry, that be wrong. It would test the doc claim.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Ectomancer, Troll would lynch DrippingGoofball as one who's bussing statement no makes sense and one who has avoided answering questions in anything other than broad, vague terms. Troll has a reason to think that DrippingGoofball be scum and no reasons to think that she be trying to help the town thus far. Troll still supports a mass claim and a recalibration of suspicions based on that before the lynch but if others no care for that she be Troll's first choice of a lynch.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Porkens, do Troll a big favor if you will and take a look at what Troll has said about DrippingGoofball saying that Porkens was bussing Adel if Porkens was scum. To Troll this continues to be a huge issue.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The thing that strikes Troll most about Porken's cop claim be how well it explains his interactions with springlullaby on day one compared to day two. springlullaby be another matter, though apparently there be some claimed picking up on a breadcrumb and in any case, Troll has little interest in lynching either today.

Elmo, Troll no has an issue with you seeing the timing of Troll's actions towards DrippingGoofball being of interest as relates to the wagon on Adel. Troll can just say that Troll no started until DrippingGoofball made her statement about Porkens bussing Adel which happened some time into Adel being at L-1. Lord Gurgi removed his vote before Troll got particularly going with it but the timing on the whole be based on when Troll picked up on what Troll saw as an inconsistency.

What's really funny is that I didn't consider them being of different alignments.

This be what Troll had been about what Troll was expecting when Troll first asked whether DrippingGoofball's statement was really what she meant to say about Porkens back in Post 946. It does strike Troll as funny; Troll would expect DrippingGoofball to look at Porkens's actions as either scum or town from the perspective of Adel being town but that no was the case. At this point Troll has trouble accepting that it would take so long for DrippingGoofball to wait this long to make it as town. DrippingGoofball says that Troll's behavior reminds her of what happened between her and Stephoscope with the go back to the QT post. To Troll it reminds Troll more of when Troll noticed that DrippingGoofball implied that there were exactly three scum left in that game and we talked about it right at the time rather than it taking this long for DrippingGoofball to clarify something fairly simple.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Vi be focused just now perhaps more than Troll would care for but there be care taken in the posts and Troll no thinks that it be a thoughtless attack. Troll liked how Vi played day one once Vi started posting (Troll be influenced here by Vi's interactions with Troll which seemed appropriate given Troll's play.) At this time Troll tentatively suspects that Vi be town with the push on Adel and exchanges with Elmo but this could change depending on how today's lynch turns out and what this night looks like.

Troll would like to hear what Vi thinks about DrippingGoofball at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

What does Adel think of what Elmo has done recently? Both Elmo and Troll have now put Adel in their short list of those that be potential lynches for today. Troll suspects that Adel no cares for how Troll has gone about this which be fine given that Troll's change was somewhat abrupt when Porkens made his claim. Does Elmo's more delayed reaction be more reasonable to Adel? Does Troll be wrong in assuming that Troll's inclusion of Adel as a potential lynch be the main reason that Adel seems to have moved Troll's lynchability up? Does Troll be wrong about the move at all or did Troll always be in or near that top tier for Adel?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

To what degree does Adel assume that Porkens be town at this time?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Spring, Ecto, Vi, DGB and Troll are possible lynches for today.

Troll was mostly asking because of the list that Adel gave there. Troll no be looking for something absolute, just a modification of what Adel had given unprompted previously with some reasons ideally thrown in.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

EBWOP:

That quote was from 1048, clearly not 1948 as 1948 no exists at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

To what degree does Adel assume that Porkens be town at this time?

i'm treating his alignment as a black box. I can't open that box, I'm skeptical of its label being accurate (cop) but I'm looking for ways to test it.

If Porkens is scum, who are his partners?
spring? there was the distinct shift from minor suspicion of spring day 1 to the "town" opinion he had day 2... so if his fakeclaim was prepared during the night then an elder scumbuddy probably would've coached him.. an elder scumbuddy who was familiar with Tajo playing well as town, or thought they had a PR tell from Tajo. So that would be a scum group of (Porkens+spring)+ 1 of (DGB, Elmo, Ecto)? DGB and Ecto are voting for spring, so that would leave Elmo.... who took a while to think about the game and then started setting the stage to move towards an Adel lynch.

Why would DrippingGoofball or Ectomancer not be bussing springlullaby here? Troll tends to think that if springlullaby be scum she would be a good candidate for a bus.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

What (other than his suspicion of Troll and the speed with which the inclusion of Adel as a potential lynch was stated) sets Elmo apart from Troll so far as that goes? What information about Prokens's claim would Elmo's alignment give us?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll would like to hear what Vi thinks about DrippingGoofball at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

You keep asking everyone their opinion of me, it's an underhanded way to start a wagon. I'm asking myself whether you'd do this as scum, but I rather think you'd want to ride other players' moods rather than sneakily try to start a wagon on a townie. Unless of course your buddy is in danger. Mmmmm.

So who would DrippingGoofball posit that Troll be trying to protect at this point? Troll be trying to make sure that all have looked at DrippingGoofball carefully to make their own decisions and the votes no indicate that Troll has done anything that convinces others that DrippingGoofball's bussnng comment be overly suspicious despite what Troll thinks.

What (other than his suspicion of Troll and the speed with which the inclusion of Adel as a potential lynch was stated) sets Elmo apart from Troll so far as that goes? What information about Prokens's claim would Elmo's alignment give us?

If Porkens is scum then he is either lying about spring being innocent or he isn't.

Either way, I currently see Elmo as being a highly probable scum partner of a scum-Porkens.

So if Elmo be scum then Porkens be more likely to be scum. If Elmo be town how does this help us determine Porkens's alignment?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll be trying to make sure that all have looked at DrippingGoofball carefully to make their own decisions and the votes no indicate that Troll has done anything that convinces others that DrippingGoofball's bussnng comment be overly suspicious despite what Troll thinks.

Did I miss your characteristic thorough evaluation of Porkens' claim and everything that surrounds it?

Perhaps it just failed to impress you. Troll's evaluation of the claim be light but be found in Post 1150 where Troll said:

The thing that strikes Troll most about Porken's cop claim be how well it explains his interactions with springlullaby on day one compared to day two. springlullaby be another matter, though apparently there be some claimed picking up on a breadcrumb and in any case, Troll has little interest in lynching either today.

It builds on what Troll said earlier in Post 867 where Troll said:

As for Troll's stance on the group of Porkens, springlullaby and Vi, Troll does agree that it be likely that at least one of the three be scum. Troll has little interest in voting for Vi today. Troll does find the interactions of Porkens and springlullaby today (compared to yesterday) to be interesting. Yesterday them were among each other's biggest detractors. Today them have been largely oblivious of each other (though Porkens did say that one of springlullaby's posts attacking Adel made her look town.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@ Troll

I'm quite surprised with your relaxed stance on Porkens and springlullaby, given your usual paranoia.

Troll does be paranoid and no has anyone actually cleared as town at this time. Troll was trying to figure out why Porkens no was pushing springlullaby this day and his claim gave Troll a good reason why this would be the case. That springlullaby gave up any apparent suspicion on Porkens still be a matter of concern for Troll but the cop claim be a good enough reason for Troll to put off pursuing that avenue at this time. Troll's view on Porkens currently be similar to that of Adel; him be a black box and Troll no can see inside to be sure of his alignment.

Troll, I think the key words were "characteristic thorough evaluation"

Them be DrippingGoofball's words, not Troll's. Troll presents what Troll sees and gives Troll's take. If Troll be expected to present a waterproof case every time Troll will disappoint but that be fine. Troll no expects it from others either as this be a game where absolute cases be hard to come by in Troll's experience.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Elmo, Troll forgot to ask before but why did Elmo's vote count here have Elmo's name in light blue rather than dark blue?

Unoffiical Votecount

Adel

(2):

Vi

,

springlullaby

springlullaby

(2):

DrippingGoofball

,

Ectomancer

DrippingGoofball

(1):

Zorblag

Ectomancer

(1):

Porkens

Not voting:

Elmo

,

Lord Gurgi

,

Adel

.

What a mess. :?

Adel and DrippingGoofball, why do you be voting for Vi ahead of Troll? For DrippingGoofball in particular it seems that Troll be the one that be more suspect and Adel seems to think that there be a good chance that Vi and Troll be scum together as most of his case so Troll no understands why it be Vi that be the choice.

Lord Gurgi, other than Adel do you have any top choices for a lynch at this point? You have spent much time talking with Adel and have said that too many be scummy in this game but Troll no can tell who your second choice might be.

Are you rolefishing here? Because if you are, I have not yet seen you respond to Troll's request for a Mass Claim. I'd like you to respond to Troll's question directly, like now.

Troll does actually still support a mass claim though Troll seems to have little support based on the things others have said. Why does springlullaby's failure to address the issue in particular be important? What does Ectomancer make of Porkens's claim? When springlullaby asked Ectomancer the question at issue here Troll thought about saying that it was pretty clear that it was Herodotus that Ectomancer had in mind as the one who had spoken thus about Adel but Troll decided that it no was that vital to get into the conversation.

If springlullaby no was a viable lynch today (and Troll thinks that likely be the case) who would Ectomancer be next most interested in voting for?

spring, LG, ELMO, Vi, can we please join together to end our collective suffering?

Troll wonders why Troll no was petitioned here.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll also wonders why Porkens no mentioned Ectomancer in the request to vote for Adel. Especially as Vi (who was mentioned) still be voting for Adel so far as Troll can tell.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Hmm, and why does springlullaby be included for that matter? The omission of DrippingGoofball given her stated views on Adel be more expected to Troll. Basically, how did Porkens come up with that list?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Troll 1195: I'm not sure I follow. Could you explain your stance on Porkens+s-lully+Vi more straightforwardly?

Troll no particularly meant to include Vi in what Troll had been saying there; it had to do with the interactions between Porkens and springlullaby on day one compared to day two. Troll had noticed that Porkens and springlullaby expressed some suspicion of eachother on day and built small cases. Day two them both have dropped these. Porkens simply stopped talking about springlullaby much at all and springlullaby's initial posts seemed to indicate a large change in focus in general. Porkens's cop claim be a very good explanation for his behavior there. Troll still be unsure what to make of springlullaby. In any case, the cop claim with springlullaby innocent be enough of a reason for Troll to have little interest in pushing either of the two this day. We will get more information from Porkens after the next night (either through his death or through his investigation results) and DrippingGoofball be a better lynch at this time in Troll's opinion anyhow.

Troll's opinion on Adel has been drifting more towards scum based on what has been said the past week or so. Troll no thinks that the pairings that him be giving be all that compelling and Troll be especially dubious of the idea that an Elmo lynch would be useful for determining Porkens's alignment or that Vi turning up town would be a good indication that Troll be town as well. Adel's claim also be the one that strikes Troll as fitting the worst with the others but that be more minor as this no be an open setup and we no know what all would claim.

If Adel were to be lynched at this point Troll would be fine with it but Troll feels that Troll has a better scum read on DrippingGoofball. That in addition to the fact that if Adel does be the doc him can use the protection in a way which might be of use (assuming there no be some scum power role to block or redirect it) makes DrippingGoofball a pretty easy choice for Troll's preference for today's lynch.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Porkens, you would be fine lynching Lord Gurgi?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Elmo, Troll wonders if you could spell out your most compelling cases on DrippingGoofball and Troll? There seems to be discontent on a couple people's parts for your not voting yet and perhaps sharing your in depth thoughts on the two of your top suspects that people no have been pressing you on of late would be of use to both them (to see why you be hesitant to vote) and yourself (to clarify to yourself how strong you think the cases be.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

I've just learned that my grandmother died today. Tomorrow would have been her 91st birthday; she lived a full life and this isn't unexpected at all. The only effect this might have on the game is that I might end up missing a couple days at some point in the upcoming week while I go participate in whatever ceremony we end up having and help my mother with whatever she needs help with. I hope you'll excuse my absence if I'm not here for a stretch shortly.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

I will gladly vote Zorblag to save my as today.
Adel mislynch -> dead cop.

DGB has done nothing but sing your praises, which you've accepted quite uncritically, I think.

I can't fight

everyone

in the same game, and I don't see any tells against DGB.

Nothing at all for DrippingGoofball? What about the bussing comment? If that no be a tell that be fine but Troll knows that it along with the delayed explanation be a tell for Troll.

Would Adel lynch DrippingGoofball at this time to save his ass?

Troll wonders if Adel would do the same as Elmo just did and present the strongest cases him has for both DrippingGoofball and Troll? If there be nothing for DrippingGoofball that be fine, Troll will simply take the case against Troll.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@springlullaby: Troll just wants to confirm that you know that if Adel be town you now be proposing a scum team which consists of the only three people (other than Adel) who no have voted for Adel today. The entire scum team there would then have held off on lynching a one shot doctor who still has a shot left for as long as the day has gone on when there were plenty of opportunities to change an opinion and be a part of the wagon without it looking particularly out of place. You apparently be ruling out being fairly sure about Adel being town or not thinking that the case on Adel was sufficient as possible town motivations and be saying that the only ones who would have been right not to vote up till now be the scum team while all those who did vote for the mislynch be misguided townies. If that be what you think be the case it be up to you Troll supposes.

@DrippingGoofball: Troll no has read the book but be aware of it and some of what it says. Troll would think that particular lesson be fairly obvious in any case. Troll do be pretty glad that you got to get into the game. Troll thinks you be scum but the play do be fun. What does DrippingGoofball think of DrippingGoofball at this time?

I'm also not willing to lynch Porkens or Elmo.

Despite the fact that you have a Elmo, Porkens pairing as one you suspect (or at least suspected recently)? Has Elmo stopped loosing his town cred since you said that him had been doing that or did him just not loose enough to fall into lynchability?

@Porkens: Even though we probably don't lose directly due to a mislynch today not all lynches have the same risks and rewards. Troll's list of those Troll would be willing to lynch still be Adel and DrippingGoofball but Troll continues to feel that DrippingGoofball be the better choice.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Precision,

I'll require replacement starting 18 June.

Does this still be the case springlullaby?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll would rather wait for springlullaby to confirmed that she will be replaced in two days but Troll will have to assume that the situation no has changed.

Vote: Adel

DrippingGoofball still be the better choice but it seems that no will happen and Adel be a much better lynch than springlullaby. At this point springlullaby be much more likely to be scum bait than scum in Troll's assessment and the risk/reward of potentially wasting what probably be our last mislynch today to get an inconclusive verification on Porkens as opposed to lynching Adel who has looked worse and worse as the day has gone on just no be worth it. springlullaby no has impressed Troll much but she did say one thing today which Troll no had thought of before and which makes sense:

If Porkens doesn't die

One would assume that Adel would protect him, and the scum would hit another player.

Alright, now explain why Porkens scum would vie for a doc lynch in these conditions.

Porkens, if him do be scum, has every reason to want to keep Adel alive and find some other mislynch today to help with his claim tomorrow if him be alive.

This day has provided much in the way of information and Troll be most glad that it no did end in the Adel lynch earlier as Troll no would have gotten as much from DrippingGoofball in particular. At this point Troll thinks that it do be time to end things before the wagon on springlullaby can gain enough steam to be truly viable (Troll be worried about how Lord Gurgi has been reacting towards it since this morning.) By day two springlullaby should be replaced with a new player with fresh insight which will be good to hear.

If Troll be wrong and Adel do be town then Troll fully expects to look terrible but Troll will live with that.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll should also be around for a while. If people have questions Troll be happy to try to answer them. Troll thinks that Troll has been expressing a steadily increasing suspicion of Adel of late but perhaps that just be Troll's self-perception of Troll's play.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll believes that Troll hammered Adel, yes.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll believes that Troll hammered Adel, yes.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll's preferred lynch yesterday was DrippingGoofball. Adel flipping goon and Porkens flipping cop no changes that. If anything, Adel flipping goon increases Troll's scum read on Adel.

Vote: DrippingGoofball

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

EBWOP: If anything, Adel flipping goon increases Troll's scum read on DrippingGoofball.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Ah, yes. Troll gives warm welcome to BridgesAndBaloons. Troll be most interested to hear what you have to say about the game.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

So, DrippingGoofball, if Troll be wrong and you do be town, other than Troll who do you think be most likely to be scum?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

If Lord Gurgi has any particular questions Troll be happy to try to answer them.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Adel reached L-1 and was hanging there for a while, I think. If I'd voted around that time and done nothing else, I think there's a good chance someone would've hammered.

If Elmo had voted during that time someone else hammering no would have been an issue as Adel would have been lynched. Perhaps Elmo means L-2?

As for leading a lynch, Elmo's view be interesting. Troll knows that when Troll votes Troll typically no follows that up with an attempt to get the one Troll has voted for lynched. This game alone be replete with examples of Troll incorrectly voting for town. Troll no assumes that Troll must be right in Troll's votes and most of the time be more interested in seeing how others will react to what Troll has found worth voting than trying to push it on others. It could be that a vote means more for Elmo means it does for Troll (and actually day two of this game might well indicate that be the case) but this view of voting strikes Troll as overly cautious offhand.

On another note Troll be interested in having Elmo do a reread on Ectomancer and letting us know what his thoughts be. Troll was looking over what Elmo had said in the past about him and there seems to have been some suspicion at the start of the game followed by an ill-defined drop-off after which Elmo consistently found Ectomancer leaning town but in need of a reread.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Occam's razor would indicate Adel+DGB+Ecto. Though Troll is good scum, hrm. If it is you, Troll, kudos... maybe I should meta you. Do you feel this is representative of your typical town playstyle?

The thing about Elmo be that Troll often agrees with what him has to say. Troll's current thought be that DrippingGoofball and Ectomancer be the most likely remaining scum team in Troll's assessment of the game. Elmo be praising Troll as scum here (as did Adel) but Troll no has any reason to think that Elmo no would be subtle enough to manage to give the same impression were he scum.

Troll no thinks that this game has been particularly typical of Troll's town play. Troll seems to get killed during nights when Troll be town because the scum overestimate Troll's skill (any can take a look at Troll's wiki to see how Troll has fared in games where Troll be town) though Troll be in little danger of that here. Troll also thinks that this game be atypical of Troll's play as scum where Troll usually comes across as fairly town or plays two town off against eachother (again, Troll's wiki provides the links to these games.) This game Troll no managed to engage properly at the start of the game for a variety of reasons so Troll's play be more nebulous than normal. Since Troll identified that this was the case Troll has been trying to change it but Troll no be sure how successful Troll has been. Troll be fairly introspective but it still be tough for Troll to fully describe Troll's meta.

Troll no be sure that this will help or not but it be what Troll can say. Troll, like any, no be the best one to ask to assess oneself. As a general policy Troll thinks that looking into anyone else's meta be a reasonable idea to help with expectations and perhaps Elmo would gain more from it than Troll expects.

Also, Troll will be away for most of the day tomorrow for Troll's grandmother's funeral.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Apparently people be interested in the timing of Troll's hammer. Troll will start with the town read Troll had for Adel in post 820 and work from there:

At this point Troll thinks that Adel be more likely to be town than scum. Troll no has interest in lynching him this day. Troll similarly would prefer not to lynch SpyreX or Vi.

Troll's top choices currently be Porkens and springlullaby. If other wagons of interest develop Troll will state opinions about them but Troll no be interested in saying why Troll thinks that others might or might not be town at this time.

At that point Adel had just given answers to Troll's questions about what him had been saying about Troll and proclaimed that him believed that SpyreX was a vig and dropped that case. Troll actually misunderstood a question and got misunderstood about Troll's stance on the gambit; Troll was focused on something else at the time. Troll thought the question about the gambit had to do with how Adel had gone from saying that Troll looked town to too many to saying that Troll looked too town to many. Troll thought that Adel's earlier stance could have been a gambit to draw reactions but decided that it was more likely to be a less than perfect way of phrasing his original point. Later readings of what happens in that period made it clear to Troll that Troll no had been in sync with the rest of the conversation but by the time this realization occurred it no was worth bring the issue up again.

It also be the case that DrippingGoofball no had been on Troll's list at that time. After that post Troll started to try to get more information from DrippingGoofball about her behavior but no had gotten much in the way of answers that made Troll suspicious by Post 867 when Troll still found the interactions between Porkens and springlullaby to be the most scummy things Troll had to work with at the time.

As for Troll's stance on the group of Porkens, springlullaby and Vi, Troll does agree that it be likely that at least one of the three be scum. Troll has little interest in voting for Vi today. Troll does find the interactions of Porkens and springlullaby today (compared to yesterday) to be interesting. Yesterday them were among each other's biggest detractors. Today them have been largely oblivious of each other (though Porkens did say that one of springlullaby's posts attacking Adel made her look town.)

It was sometime between then and Post 946 that DrippingGoofball made her post about Porkens bussing Adel. It stuck out to Troll as something noteworthy and Troll no was sure how much of it was casual wording that Troll might be misreading which be why Troll asked:

I don't get why tunnelling in that manner on Adel, someone you've vocally said was town, would make him look more townish to you.

He must really believe her to be scum. It seems a little too dogged to be bus'ing. Though you never know. Seems unlikely.

Does this really be DrippingGoofball's thoughts on Porkens at this time?

DrippingGoofball never gave Troll directly a satisfying answer to that. Her eventual reply to Elmo that it was really funny that she no considered the idea that Adel and Porkens had different alignments it was late enough that Troll was already pretty sure that DrippingGoofball was in fact scum who either made a slip or was intentionally framing Adel.

That be about the time that Troll moved Adel down to neutral in Troll's read of him and Troll then began to question Adel more closely about that and related issues.

It was after Porkens's cop claim that Troll first put Adel on Troll's list of potential lynches. It really did explain quite well how Porkens had reacted to springlullaby and Troll was more and more coming to the conclusion that springlullaby's play was simply play that wasn't going to impress Troll and not a particularly good indication of alignment. As such Troll no longer had a desire to lynch Porkens before him could either get killed or provide another investigation result and lynching springlullaby seemed suboptimal. Further, of the claims we had at the time Adel's one shot doc was the one that fit least well with the others. Troll's stance as of post 1041 was as follows (with the correction that lynching Adel would test the doc claim rather than the cop claim as Troll clarified shortly after):

Ectomancer, if Porkens no be a sane cop that lynch no establishes the claim at all and that many town power roles with a sane cop be unreasonable to expect. Right now Troll be inclined to lynch DrippingGoofball and seeing how the night kills play out or Adel to see if the cop claim be true. That do be a change from what Troll has said before but the situation has changed. Troll's first choice be a mass claim and, barring a counter claim of some power role, a DrippingGoofball lynch as Troll has more reason to think she be scum than anyone else at this time.

Troll continued to ask Adel questions about the statements he was making and connections that he was drawing. As the answers were given Troll found Adel's stance to be more and more unreasonably flexible and the connections to be less and less indicative of the things that Adel was saying them should be. Troll no did explicitly say this with much frequency but it did come up in post 1262 when Vi asked Troll to claify Troll's thoughts on Adel.

Troll's opinion on Adel has been drifting more towards scum based on what has been said the past week or so. Troll no thinks that the pairings that him be giving be all that compelling and Troll be especially dubious of the idea that an Elmo lynch would be useful for determining Porkens's alignment or that Vi turning up town would be a good indication that Troll be town as well. Adel's claim also be the one that strikes Troll as fitting the worst with the others but that be more minor as this no be an open setup and we no know what all would claim.

If Adel were to be lynched at this point Troll would be fine with it but Troll feels that Troll has a better scum read on DrippingGoofball. That in addition to the fact that if Adel does be the doc him can use the protection in a way which might be of use (assuming there no be some scum power role to block or redirect it) makes DrippingGoofball a pretty easy choice for Troll's preference for today's lynch.

Troll's hammer then came when Adel decided to completely excuse DrippingGoofball's behavior and the bandwagon was built on springlullaby which Troll found to be a much worse lynch at the time and likely one designed to keep Adel from getting lynched. When Lord Gurgi started looking like him was somewhat likely to join it Troll decided that Troll would hammer Adel if anyone put him at L-1 (Troll was curious as to whether Elmo would continue the trend he had show towards willingness to consider the Adel lynch) or at least vote for Adel if one more vote was cast to lynch springlullaby.

Troll still would have preferred a DrippingGoofball lynch yesterday when Troll cast Troll's vote but Adel had done enough to look scummy as the day went on that him was clearly a better lynch in Troll's opinion than springlullaby would have been.

Troll can understand if people think that Troll's vote was out of the blue but Troll did shift Troll's opinion on Adel based on his actions and the connections with DrippingGoofball over time. If Troll no was completely transparent in Troll's thoughts at all times it be in part because Troll no thought that it was useful for Adel and DrippingGoofball to see the shift fully and in part because Troll no drew much attention to the things that Troll did say.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The description of Troll as normally anxious be interesting to Troll but so be it.

DrippingGoofball, Troll wonders if you can explain what the gambit you were trying to use at the end of day two that Troll cut short? Troll thinks that it be an attempt to get reactions from others about Porkens but Troll be a bit unclear about what it was you were trying to do exactly.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

So what does DrippingGoofball then make of Ectomancer's first vote for springlullaby after Porkens's cop claim (post 1038:)

Lynch Spring and test the claim as far as it can be. I'm putting my bet on scum partners so makes it easy for me.

unvote; vote Spring

As far as Lord Gurgi goes, Troll wonders if DrippingGoofball has a best guess for how we ended up with the kills we did night one if Lord Gurgi be scum and why SpyreX was so unwilling to consider anyone other than an Adel lynch during day two until him got replaced?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Hmmm, good point. What applies to Lord Gurgi applies to Ectomancer as well then. Who do you think appeared most happy with the plan I was proposing?

Troll no knows that Troll can give a reasonable answer to that. Ectomancer's post which talked about testing the cop claim by lynching springlullaby came before DrippingGoofball brought up her plan and him never posted after the plan was brought up so far as Troll can tell where the plan started. Lord Gurgi seemed to be warming to the idea though Troll no can tell how much of it was testing the claim and how much was the appeal of lynching springlullaby; in any case him never got to a vote with it.

That's another good point about Spyrex, I'd lost track that he was replaced by Lord Gurgi. I'm not sure why tajo was NK'd. He was mostly a threat to Hero (now lynched) and SL early on. I don't see the link between tajo's NK and Lord Gurgi/Spyrex. What is it?

Troll no thinks there was much of an established reason for SpyreX to want to kill populartajo. Troll took a look at the connections everyone had with him (post 681) and SpyreX no stood out. It be more SpyreX's probable connection with Artem based on the play at the end of day one and the immediate vig claim on day two.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Why does DrippingGoofball be assuming that if SpyreX was scum that the scum teams kill must have been populartajo? Or does Troll be misreading something here?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

And the claimed one shot vig was SpyreX.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll believes that Troll has started all the games Troll no did replace into by voting systematically for those who no had posted yet. Once Troll used reverse alphabetical order but the other three times it was standard alphabetical order. The links to all of Troll's games be on Troll's wiki if you care to look at any.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Things be getting slow. What hypocrisy did Lord Gurgi have in mind for either Troll or DrippingGoofball when him said:

I'm trying to look for something to differentiate the two of you. Both of your cases seem to be hypocrisy at their bases.

Has this changed at all in the past couple pages?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Troll: Do you think your vote on Adel was "out of character" as it pertains to this game? Could you clarify more about how the description of your play as anxious is "interesting"?

Troll no particularly thought Troll's vote was out of character for this game or others but Troll knew more of what Troll was thinking leading up to it than anyone else. Anxious implies to Troll nervousness or second guessing or uncertainty. Troll has been mostly comfortable with Troll's actions and it be interesting to Troll that others seem to feel that Troll play has been anxious. It no be as strong as an objection would have been from Troll but it no be the characterization of Troll's play that Troll would have expected others to make.

You are each guilty of the sins of the other.

Can you be more specific than this? Troll would like to be able to address your concerns but it be hard to do when Troll no knows what you have in mind.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

It bugs me slightly that Zorblag went (relatively) nuts on DGB for something that looked quite minor. idk.

I'm glad you agree; not only was it minor, but we now know that the whole premise was untrue, since both players I had remarked on are dead and their alignment is known. He tried very hard to produce an Adel counterwagon on me, and it failed. It's quite possible that he bus'ed Adel at the last minute.

Actually it still be just as big an issue for Troll as it was before; Troll no thinks that the implications be gone at. Troll can pull up the quote and go over it again:

I don't get why tunnelling in that manner on Adel, someone you've vocally said was town, would make him look more townish to you.

He must really believe her to be scum. It seems a little too dogged to be bus'ing. Though you never know. Seems unlikely.

As DrippingGoofball was firmly in the Adel as town camp she should have been much more willing and likely to consider the Adel town, Porkens town case or the Adel town, Porkens scum case than the Adel scum, Porkens town case or the Adel scum, Porkens scum case. If Porkens either be town and really believes that Adel be scum or them both be scum together be the two cases that DrippingGoofball considers then she be breaking that expectation by a fair amount.

The possibilities Troll could come up with were that she misspoke in general (and Troll tried to get her to give a chance to explain what she meant) which be a null tell alignment-wise, that she made a slip as scum
and gave away the fact that she knew Adel was her partner or that she intentionally misused the term bus to make it seem like Adel was her partner in order to get Adel mislynched.

It seems that her claim later was that she simply no did think of the possibility that Adel and Porkens had different alignments; Troll finds that unlikely given how strongly she had been saying Adel was town and how long after Troll brought the issue up she came up with that explanation. In any case, Troll now knows that Adel was scum so the option Troll thinks most likely be that DrippingGoofball made a slip that revealed her knowledge that Adel was scum which she would have to be scum to do.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Yes, there is something that both you and B&B should do. Right now you are making calculations with the assumption that I'm scum.

Why does DrippingGoofball think that BridgesAndBaloons assumes that DrippingGoofball be scum at this time?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

BridgesAndBaloons, Troll be fine with being called Troll. If anything Troll encourages it.

As for the serial killer thought, if there be a serial killer other than Lord Gurgi them could most likely have gotten Lord Gurgi lynched today simply by killing last night. If Lord Gurgi be a serial killer rather than a one shot vigilante then there be a decent chance that the mafia will take care of him before we have to worry about it. If Lord Gurgi somehow be mafia and the mafia had an extra killing role somehow then it be a bit trickier to find out as we go but it would be a somewhat surprising setup so for now Troll simply acknowledges that it no be impossible but no be that concerned about it at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Hmm, and perhaps Troll be a bit too dismissive there. If Lord Gurgi do be a serial killer and chose not to kill night two and we lynch scum today then him could start killing again with relative impunity tomorrow and would be in great shape. The trouble with that is that for that to work as a strategy SpyreX would have to rely on the town making a couple correct lynches in days two and three (or maybe two of days two three and four) in order for it to be safe. That seems a large gamble to make.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Lord Gurgi, Troll wonders who your top two or three suspects be at this time. You replaced into a position where many thought you were likely to be town and so your views be more likely to hold weight with others than most. Thus far you didn't like Adel and then seemed to be considering a springlullaby lynch day two (Troll knows that Troll simplifies that a bit.) Today Troll thinks that perhaps you find DrippingGoofball and Troll most suspicious but Troll no be quite sure. Troll would love to see cases or even just a suspicion list from you at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

So Ectomancer and Vi both seem pretty townie to Lord Gurgi at this time? Troll assumes that BridgesAndBaloons be off the table to some degree because Porkens flipped cop but that just be Troll's assumption.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

*chuckles* Troll no wants Lord Gurgi to explicitly suspect everyone other than Lord Gurgi, Troll just be trying to see whether Lord Gurgi thinks that those him no suspects at this time be likely town or if him be neutral. If there do be three scum in the game Troll wonders if Lord Gurgi thinks that it be Adel, DrippingGoofball and Troll or if either DrippingGoofball or Troll being scum might cast more suspicion on someone else? Troll be assuming here that Lord Gurgi do be keeping everyone at least in mind when thinking of what scum teams would make sense.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

BridgesAndBaloons might be a God Father or Porkens might have been a naive or insane cop but those both seem unlikely to Troll. springlullaby's posts towards the end of her time in the game lead Troll to believe that she was playing poorly rather than her being scum. Troll finds it pretty likely that BridgesAndBaloons be town at this time.

Lord Gurgi, so long as you be thinking about things and plan to share this day Troll be satisfied.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

DrippingGoofball said that Porkens was either town or bussing Adel. This implies that DrippingGoofball thought that Adel was scum. As DrippingGoofball had been clear that she thought Adel was town that makes no sense. This leads Troll to believe that DrippingGoofball made a slip as scum and acknowledged that Adel was her partner. It no relies on Porkens's alignment at all.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

You keep bringing up mutual bussing and Troll still no sees what you have in mind with it. Bussing be one scum trying to get another lynched (if bussing means something else you will need to help Troll with the definition here but that one seems most basic.) Does mutual bussing be two scum trying to get eachother lynched more or less simultaneously or does it be something else? Troll no be trying to do anything other than understand your term at this point.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

OK, then Troll no understands why you no were considering the idea that Porkens as scum might have been going after Adel as town to mislynch given that you were talking about Porkens's behavior when you thought that Adel was likely town. It be that lack of consideration that Troll was trying to bring attention to. Troll no sees what mutual bussing would have to do with that.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

And apparently the argument you be giving be that scum no would put that effort in to mislynch a single townie. Troll thinks that we will disagree about that and that be fine.

Troll still finds that to be a scum tell for DrippingGoofball. It no be the only reason that Troll finds DrippingGoofball the most likely scum at this time but it was the first key thing that stood out to Troll. If it be desired Troll can go over more reasons.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

And apparently the argument you be giving be that

scum no would put that effort in to mislynch a single townie.

Troll thinks that we will disagree about that and that be fine.

Troll still finds that to be a scum tell for DrippingGoofball. It no be the only reason that Troll finds DrippingGoofball the most likely scum at this time but it was the first key thing that stood out to Troll. If it be desired Troll can go over more reasons.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

That blatant misinterpretation is almost enough to warrant a vote for troll right now. I can't believe you went from,

"You slipped and said Adel was scum, that thought makes you scum"

to

"Oh, you didn't slip, but now [Blatant misinterpretation] means your still scum for a key reason that I'm not going to specify."

Troll no particularly thinks that the bolded statement there be a misrepresentation of the bolded statement here Troll was getting it from:

Exactly. but Porkens was going at Adel pretty hard. That's usually a very convinced townie, or scum bus'ing.

It's rare for scum to go bat crazy over lynching a single townie.

DrippingGoofball was explaining why when considering Porkens's alignment she no considered the case that Porkens was scum and Adel was town. The only case where Porkens was scum that she was considering was where Porkens was bussing Adel and as she had said that Adel was likely town that failure be something that troubled Troll. Troll no agrees with DrippingGoofball that scum would be that unlikely to tunnel on a particular townie but in any case taking as long as she did to give that explanation makes Troll less likely to accept it even if Troll does accept that she holds that view.

How did you go from her statement about one instance of scum behavior (Porkens possibly bussing Adel), to the whole strategy of scum this game? Especially when

Adel has already been on the wagons of Herodutus when he was lynched!*

Troll no thinks that Troll be doing that. Troll be using it as one piece of evidence that DrippingGoofball be likely to be scum. Troll no be quite sure what Herodotus would have to do with it as him was the day one lynch and this entire exchange took place day two and later. It be DrippingGoofball's take on Adel and Porkens that be at issue for this particular point.

Also I have a question, did Porkens get a guilty result on adel?

The only cop result that Porkens got was innocent on springlullaby.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Out of curiosity, where does BridgesAndBaloons be up to in his read through thus far?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

okay, so the problem with this question is I'm not even half way through the thread yet. I have two suspects right now actually (it might be obvious from my notes and it might not be.) Anyway, I'm questioning whether it's even helpful for me to name my suspects yet. Especially when I'm missing a huge part of the game. I think the reactions to the cop claim (something I've discovered from reading the more recent posts) could completely change my ideas.

HOWEVER; I will name one of my suspects if someone thinks that it will be valuable information now.

I'm pretty sure there was something I wanted to do before voting, but I can't remember what it was. Is anyone not okay with ending the day now? Maybe it makes sense to wait for B&B to read up.

Yes, there is something that both you and B&B should do. Right now you are making calculations with the assumption that I'm scum. The town is paying the price on account of Adel having fooled me completely, and for my loathing of Porkens' claim, which I insist, was epically bad. I'm sorry about that. But please make the calculations with the assumption that I'm town, which I will clearly be tomorrow. I'm certain that one of you will be dead, so please leave your thoughts out there to guide other players.

(shrug) I didn't see a plausible alternative lynch. I seriously doubt Gurgi will vote Troll over DGB. B&B is an unknown, but will likely be willing to lynch DGB. I actually thought Ecto was more anti-DGB than apparently he was, still haven't reread, but that's pretty close to a consensus to the degree I can't see another realistic lynch.

Also, interested why Vi thinks I'd vote troll. I guess it was because of post 1517?

Yep.

It be somewhat clear to Troll that there no be a consensus thought on exactly who it is that BridgesAndBaloons suspects. Troll be self-centered and tends to think that BridgesAndBaloons had Troll in mind with the first quote but Troll tries not to make assumptions. At this point Troll really does be most interested in knowing how much of the game BridgesAndBaloons has read and who his top choice to lynch be now. If BridgesAndBaloons really no had made it past the first day when him made post 1517 Troll be interested to see how the play past then has effected his opinions.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll wasn't prodded but probably could have been. Troll do be following what be said but Troll will take another look this afternoon and see if Troll has anything new to say.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

915

I would like everyone to read this post

by troll and tell me what you think of it. Including Troll.

Troll was trying to get Porkens to explicity state his views in that stretch. That particular post was pointing out that whether we were in LyLo or not no should change Porken's desire to lynch Adel if him was confident Adel was scum. If your concern be that Troll's language be directed entirely at Porkens and his desire to hit scum rather than a general desire on the towns part (and by implied extension Troll) Troll can only say that that post was Troll's way of trying to coax opinions and reasons for them out of Porkens. If you think that the post be interesting for some other reason Troll would have to know what you would like to hear about before responding more.

Also, [troll has] basically parked your vote on me since D1. I'd like to know what happens in your scumworld if I'm not scum.

troll:

as clearly as possible, please explain the reasoning behind this statement. Then, thinking back to how you felt on post 923, please answer the question according to how you felt (you never answered the question, I think. But if you did, please link to where you answered). Answer those questions first before this next question I ask you.

Troll can guess at the reasoning behind the statement from springlullaby if you like but it will just be Troll's guess. It seems likely that springlullaby thought that Troll was attacking her for poor reasons and was tunneling on springlullaby in particular and not trying to figure out who the scum were past that. Troll did attempt to address that as well as answer the questions in Post 974.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll: why do you think

I

think you are scum?

*shrugs* It no be a surprise given your notes from the first two thirds of the game and that Troll was the primary one that you were asking questions of but Troll no knows what it be in particular that you think makes Troll most the most likely candidate for scum at this time. If you have a case to make Troll be sure that people will be interested to see it but it be up to you to make it, not Troll.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

DrippingGoofball, Ectomancer already be voting for Troll as of post 1571.

Lord Gurgi, for BridgesAndBaloons to be part of any scum team him would have to be a godfather or Porkens would have to be naive or insane. Any of those be possible but just because BridgesAndBaloons thinks that DrippingGoofball be town no be a reason to assume them be the case.

BridgesAndBaloons, Troll accepts that you no care for some of how Troll talks; that some will have that reaction be one of the things Troll knows Troll gets to deal with when Troll chooses to talk this way. The post you used as an example Troll has talked about enough and no will go over the details again other than to say that if you think that Troll no finding anything on the first page of the game particularly suspicious is fence sitting then Troll no thinks Troll will be able to say much that will change your mind.

As for Troll's hammer of Adel, Troll went over Troll's reasoning leading up to it in a fair amount of detail back in Post 1419. What it came down to at the end as much as anything else was that there was momentum building for a springlullaby lynch (Adel, DrippingGoofball and Ectomancer were on the wagon and Lord Gurgi was making some noise about leaning towards it) which Troll felt would be much worse the Adel lynch.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Looking at the votes counts Troll does tend to agree that it would be pretty surprising to have no scum were on Artem for this wagon here on day one when him was L-2:

Herodotus (2): Elmo, populartajo
springlullaby (1): Zorblag
Adel (1): Vi
populartajo (1): Ectomancer
Artem (5): Herodotus, SpyreX, springlullaby, Korts, Porkens
SpyreX (1): Adel
Porkens (1): Artem

As Troll agrees that SpyreX and springlullaby (well, their replacements now) should be town that leaves Korts (now DrippingGoofball) as the one who could have been scum.

For the last vote count on day one it be worth noting that Korts no be voting at all; should DrippingGoofball be scum that provides another scum not on the wagon (regardless of whether we believe that Ectomancer be scum or not.)

Herodotus (7): Elmo, populartajo, Vi, Adel, Ectomancer, SpyreX, Porkens
populartajo (1): Zorblag
Artem (1): springlullaby
SpyreX (1): Herodotus

Not voting: Artem, Korts

Actually, the voting by DrippingGoofball be one of the big reasons that Troll no has lost any suspicion of her since Troll cast Troll's first vote. She had tied herself to Adel fairly soon after replacing in and spent much of her time in the day looking for some other wagon that would gain traction. Her votes, with some context were:

Porkens in Post 611 where she was picking between Porkens and springlullaby though no had given reasons that she suspected either.

springlullaby in Post 686. She has since said that this is because Troll's case on springlullaby had convinced her though actually, the quote from Troll she referenced no was a case against springlullaby so much as some things Troll found noteworthy about the interactions between springlullaby and Vi on day two that Troll was trying to get DrippingGoofball to comment on.

Vi in Post 1206 where she was working with Adel on finding a good lynch (the choice of Vi over Troll here still be a bit odd.)

springlullaby in Post 1310 to avoid a scum gambit by a Porkens, springlullaby scum team; she was still saying that Porkens's cop claim shouldn't be believed (today I think she has established that she did believe the claim by that point though it's a bit unclear.)

Troll hammered a bit after that so that was where her vote stayed at the end of the day.

Troll sees it as a pattern of trying to start wagons on different people to save a scum partner. She also talked about lynching Troll that day but never cast a vote that way.

When springlullaby was looking her weakest towards the end of the day (even though Porkens had claimed cop with an innocent on her) DrippingGoofball made an attack on the two of them as a likely scum pair in Post 1322 (the one with the hand drawn connections between players in the early game.) The analysis she gave there was fairly deceptive and seems pretty clearly to Troll an attempt to get people to vote for either Porkens or springlullaby in a way that goes beyond what might be reasonable for the asking people if them wanted to test Porkens's claim in order to catch scum DrippingGoofball has said she was doing at the end of the day.

I believe that often, though not always, scum comes out of the game bus'ing. If you look at the diagram, you can see the phase 1 voting pattern, with Porkens and SL mutually voting out of the blue. Aside from Porkens, only dead confirmed townies voted SL.

In Phase 2, Porkens revotes SL, and SL reciprocates.

This is the clearest example of early-game distancing in the game. There's really no good reason for legitimate suspicion, it's too early in the game. But as 4 players (that include 3 dead townies) hop on the SL wagon, SL distances from one of these players with a vote. That player is Porkens.

In light of this early game distancing, the oddness surrounding Porkens' claim makes more sense as scum.

Here DrippingGoofball is counting the vote and unvote by Porkens in Post 19 which be a bit marginal in Troll's opinion but so be it. The much bigger trouble be that the 4 players (that include 3 dead townies) hopping on the springlullaby wagon though would be Herodotus (who had unvoted by the time springlullaby cast her apparently distancing vote), populartajo, and Porkens (who had unvoted in the same post he cast the vote). Of those three Herodotus and populartajo simply cast random votes while Porkens had done his post 19 shenanigans. Again Troll finds that as a reason to vote marginal but if DrippingGoofball is going to count the vote at all then it be odd that she would also think that springlullaby reacting to it be most likely distancing rather than reacting to a potentially scummy action rather than the random votes from the others.

If any of those who no be voting for Troll would like Troll will claim. Troll still be fairly confident that DrippingGoofball be scum and plans to leave Troll's vote there for the time being.

Troll would like to see the reasons that BridgesAndBaloons had in mind for Troll being scum as it no seems that him has gotten to them yet.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Actually, while Troll be giving reasons that Troll finds DrippingGoofball scummy Troll might as well throw in her vote on Lord Gurgi today. Troll respects DrippingGoofball a bit too much to believe that she would have forgotten that Lord Gurgi was the claimed vig. Even if she had somehow forgotten Troll would expect a town DrippingGoofball to remove her vote immediately once she realized the mistake there. Troll saw the move as an invitation for her partner to go ahead and bus her given that she had seemed to be working with the idea that she was the likely lynch for the day already.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Actually, while Troll be giving reasons that Troll finds DrippingGoofball scummy Troll might as well throw in her vote on Lord Gurgi today. Troll respects DrippingGoofball a bit too much to believe that she would have forgotten that Lord Gurgi was the claimed vig. Even if she had somehow forgotten Troll would expect a town DrippingGoofball to remove her vote immediately once she realized the mistake there. Troll saw the move as an invitation for

her partner

to go ahead and bus her given that she had seemed to be working with the idea that she was the likely lynch for the day already.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

this is an elaborate idea. who is "her partner" in this scenario.

At the time Troll and Vi were already voting for DrippingGoofball. That would leave BridgesAndBaloons, Ectomancer, Elmo and Lord Gurgi as potential partners. As Troll does agree that there be substantial arguments against BridgesAndBaloons and Lord Gurgi being scum it would be Ectomancer or Elmo that be DrippingGoofball's likely partner.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

BridgesAndBaloons, that do be an interesting pattern for DrippingGoofball. Actually, it was one of the things that Troll was talking about in Post 974.

At this point Troll be most leery of DrippingGoofball. She no be engaging like she did in Lynch All Lurkers (it no even be close) and that be the one game Troll has played with her. She was town there and this behavior be distinctly different. Troll no sees an effort to help determine who the scum be and she be avoiding any answers that take more than a line or two to give.

DrippingGoofball no was calling people town or scum like Troll expected based on how she played in Lynch All Lurkers. In fact, if you just look at day two it seems that DrippingGoofball only managed to say "_____ is town" two times, once when she was talking about Adel near the start and once when acknowledging that SpyreX was almost certainly a vig. The bulk of the other instances this game have come with her recent vote analysis when she be making a quick series of assumptions about alignment based on how the votes looked.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Zorblag you're grasping at straws here.

Recall that I am a replacement in this game. There was a lot happening already that I was not in the middle of when I came in.

If others see this as grasping at straws then so be it but DrippingGoofball replaced into the game during Night one. Day two lasted from Post 574 to Post 1382 during which time DrippingGoofball, as a participant of the game managed to say that two people total were town. Troll thinks that BridgesAndBaloons has his meta essentially right and that DrippingGoofball no was playing her town meta during that, easily the largest stretch of the game thus far. Troll had made Troll's statement about being troubled by the lack of concrete views around halfway through the day but no had done the checking for instances where DrippingGoofball made explicit statements about people being town. BridgesAndBaloons idea of using the search function simply backs up Troll's previous impression nicely.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

scum says some stuff to mislead players since he knows I'm town

You didn't answer my question. Who is scum? Ectomancer or Vi? Why are you avoiding naming your buddy?

Troll chose not to answer your question as it be a false dilemma as there no be a reasonable answer to give. Troll no minds that DrippingGoofball be trying to say that Troll must be scum as it be a reasonable tactic to use either as scum trying to manipulate or as town trying to get a reaction but Troll expects others to see through it and until DrippingGoofball chose to press the issue Troll was happy to let it pass.

Having said that, Troll will answer the similar question that no makes the false assumption that Troll be scum. Troll thinks that Ectomancer do be more likely to be scum than Vi at this point assuming that Troll be right about DrippingGoofball being scum.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll thinks that Ectomancer do be more likely to be scum than Vi at this point assuming that Troll be right about DrippingGoofball being scum.

Yeah but you're wrong, I'm town.

Now that this is cleared up, who is scum, Vi or Ectomander?

And WHY????

The thing there is that you be wrong with the assumptions for your question. Troll be town.

Ectomancer be more likely to be scum because although him voted for Adel on day two but then withdrew the vote and at the end of the day was trying to push a Porkens/springlullaby scum team. Troll no had made a statement earlier about the timing of Porkens claim but Troll actually found it very useful. If Porkens no had claimed when him did but waited until springlullaby was at L-1 Troll would have been much less likely to believe it. As it was the timing was pretty key for Troll to not be part of the mislynch of springlullaby. Throughout day two Ectomancer had a very low profile. Him was never under much suspicion and him did little to help determine who the likely scum where. Troll finds it telling that him was part of the wagon on springlullaby at the end of the day when this was a much worse lynch than Adel.

Today Ectomancer's case seems to be that scum must have bussed Adel towards the end. It be possible that Elmo was doing that but Troll found Elmo's reasoning to be similar to Troll's and likes it. As Troll knows that Troll be town that would leave a bus if there was one in Porkens, springlullaby or Vi. Vi be possible but if that be the case then he spent the entire day bussing Adel and him be making moves that Troll likes today and Troll be sure that Porkens no was bussing and springlullaby has a cop investigation working for her. Troll finds it much more likely that there was no bus on Adel yesterday and that the scum thought them were likely to be able to keep Adel alive one more day with a springlullaby lynch.

Along those same lines, if Adel was bussed by a panicking scum then Troll no sees how that jives with the growing springlullaby wagon which Troll felt could easily end up in a springlullaby lynch; it would have been much easier to lynch Adel earlier if a partner wanted to and it would have avoided the extra information we got out of the day. It would have been pretty easy for Elmo or Troll to find a reason to switch over to the springlullaby lynch and give Adel one more day to work his manipulations.

Some of Troll's reasons be elimination and some be looking at the actions of those involved but them all point to Ectomancer as scum over Vi.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

BridgesAndBaloons, Troll assumes that you mean DrippingGoofball's early insistence of Adel being town matches previous town play. Troll no recalls seeing strong opinions from her about Elmo until today though Troll could be remembering that wrong.

As for the timing for calling people town when DrippingGoofball be town, Troll thinks that the fact she no did it during her first day in the game be a bigger tell than you do and looking back Troll notices that many of the quotes you be citing from this game no actually contain the phrase "is town" which be what you were searching for in the other games but Troll sees that your mind be set on this issue so Troll no will push past that.

At this point Troll be waiting to hear more primarily from BridgesAndBaloons, Elmo and Lord Gurgi. Troll thinks that Troll knows what to expect from the others so far as stances go. If Troll's views be unclear on anything Troll will try to help change that should any like to ask any questions.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

You know what? You can't complain that B&B may be arguing a foregone conclusion that I'm town, because you've been arguing a foregone conclusion that I'm scum. Even though your premise for thinking so yesterday has been shown to be easily blown out of the water by the simple fact that Adel was scum, and Porkens was town.

Troll has already argued why Troll's original scum tell on DrippingGoofball no was invalidated by Porkens being town. If DrippingGoofball wants Troll can explain it again. Troll be willing to consider the case that DrippingGoofball be town but the evidence against it be too much for Troll to think that be the case now.

My slowness at getting a read for players' alignment had a lot to do with my replacing into what, 22 pages of walls of text that my predecessor couldn't handle. But you, who is usually so careful and circumspect, is refusing to take that into consideration.

DrippingGoofball took almost no time to incorrectly determine that Adel was town but took much longer to make any stance on other players. BridgesAndBaloons be using this as a reason to think that DrippingGoofball be town but Troll no be buying it. Until DrippingGoofball made what Troll thinks be a scum tell on day two Troll no was confident about who was scum; Troll do be careful, that was the first thing this game that Troll saw that be worth latching onto strongly and following up on by asking others what them saw in the statement.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll supports a mass claim and has since Porkens claimed cop. Troll be happy with whatever method people like.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

You know what? You can't complain that B&B may be arguing a foregone conclusion that I'm town, because you've been arguing a foregone conclusion that I'm scum. Even though your premise for thinking so yesterday has been shown to be easily blown out of the water by the simple fact that Adel was scum, and Porkens was town.

Troll has already argued why Troll's original scum tell on DrippingGoofball no was invalidated by Porkens being town. If DrippingGoofball wants Troll can explain it again. Troll be willing to consider the case that DrippingGoofball be town but the evidence against it be too much for Troll to think that be the case now.

No really, I've explained it a million times already, re-read my posts. I basically said that either Porkens was bus'ing Adel or was a townie believing Adel to be town. I quickly dismissed bus'ing as a possibility, that his efforts were too dogged to be bus'ing. So I concluded that he was town believing Adel to be scum. Your whole thing makes no sense at all, you have recruited exactly ZERO player into this bee in your bonnet of yours. That should tell you something.

Troll's most recent explanation of the idea be in Post 1505 where Troll says:

DrippingGoofball said that Porkens was either town or bussing Adel. This implies that DrippingGoofball thought that Adel was scum. As DrippingGoofball had been clear that she thought Adel was town that makes no sense. This leads Troll to believe that DrippingGoofball made a slip as scum and acknowledged that Adel was her partner. It no relies on Porkens's alignment at all.

DrippingGoofball can now say all she wants that the idea Porkens was scum while Adel was town no occured to her but that no makes it any more likely to be a reasonable explanation. As to no one accepting that Troll has a point here, here be some of the reactions back on day two. People that still be alive be welcome to confirm or deny that them feel that it be an issue now as them like.

@Troll - DGB is in those groups making absolute statements. She falls in the "Adel is town!" camp. She posts in one liners for the most part making getting a feel for the playstyle take a bit longer. Replacement meta has very minor plus town points. One of those players who needs to better explain where they are deriving their conclusions from. On the Porkens bussing town Adel question, doesn't make much sense does it? She came in proclaiming Adel town so...where was the time ever to consider a bus by scum Porkens on a scum Adel?

Lord Gurgi, the quality of a potential bus no be the issue. It be that DrippingGoofball says that Adel be town and the only reasonings she gives for Prokens voting for Adel involve bussing or town tunneling. This indicates that she knows that Adel be scum as Porkens as scum no could bus Adel, it just no be what bus means. If DripingGoofball thinks that a vote from scum Prokens for Adel must be bussing then Adel must believe that both are scum.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

No, yeah, you're right, this is spot on.

No.. wait. I'm wrong.
[snipped quotes from DrippingGoofball]
So basically:
DGB: I think Porkens is scummy, and Adel is obviously town.
(time passes)
Porkens: OMG ADEL OBVSCUM!
DGB: I think a bunch of people are more scummy than Porkens.
Elmo: Why?
DGB: Porkens is a tunnelling townie. I considered bussing, but his attack on Adel seems a little too dogged.

So I don't actually see it, really. Erp.

*rubs the lamp* Madame Djinni, why did you reference the possibility of Porkens bussing Adel long after you had said Adel was obviously town?

Troll thinks that Elmo at least found the issue to be worth considering though Elmo be able to verify that or deny it. The first quote from him there was after Elmo had said that there was no was a contradiction by DrippingGoofball to give it context.

Troll will also go ahead and claim now. Troll be a vanilla townie.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Do you have any issue with DrippingGoofball confirming her claim or Ectomancer claiming vanilla townie or is it just Troll's claim that you dislike there?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

DrippingGoofball claimed a while ago because she was at L-2.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

And Troll assumes that Lord Gurgi wants Elmo last in a perfect order? Or did him just get forgotten?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

BridgesAndBaloons, why would you abbreviate your reasons for suspecting Troll this close to deadline rather than actually typing them out? Even if you no be sure about them (and it sounds like your certainty went down after you did the abbreviating) wouldn't it make sense to spell them out fully for people to take a look and potentially agree or disagree with them sooner so there still be time for more conversation while there still be time to do so?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The thread be open earlier than Troll was expecting based on the stated deadline. Troll be posting briefly before heading off to cave but will have more to say tomorrow.

two pro-town votes on a townie loses the game. Interesting note, if the game reaches deadline without a lynch, scum can win the game easily.

Most likely a single pro-town vote on a townie loses the game. How do you come up with two rather than one?

Troll: please please please make your posts as succinct as possible. If you don't, I might not understand the content and'll probably vote you.

Also, I told you all about DGB.

You did tell Troll about DrippingGoofball, yes.

There be two things that trouble Troll more than anything else just now. The first be the timing of BridgesAndBaloons's case on Troll. In the three weeks that him had to make it it was only the last three hours of the day that it got made. That be terrible terrible timing. Troll will reply to some of the points tomorrow but until then Troll would ask that people hold off on voting for Troll or anyone else.

The second be that Ectomancer already be voting for Troll in LyLo. That the game no has ended yet either means that Ectomancer be scum or that the scum haven't gotten the chance to coordinate a quickhammer but that vote before Troll has a chance to speak in this situation be a particularly poor one. Troll will address what Ectomancer's case against Troll looks like as well tomorrow.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll will start by saying that Troll did indeed read DrippingGoofball incorrectly this game. Troll thought all the things Troll brought up throughout the game were indications of scummy play but it seems that Troll was too unforgiving about a couple mistakes that DrippingGoofball made. At this point there be nothing Troll can do to change that so Troll will move on.

Troll no said much about the case that Ectomancer was putting forward yesterday for a couple reasons. For most of the day it no was focused on Troll in particular and others seemed not to be doing much with it. When Ectomancer got around to voting for Troll it seemed somewhat likely that the day would end as it did with DrippingGoofball being lynched and Troll coming in second in the vote count. At the time Troll was pretty sure that DrippingGoofball would flip scum so it no made sense to draw attention to the argument that was being put forward as Troll expected to look fairly good today having been on a scum wagon since the start of the day after hammering Adel the previous day. Clearly that no was what happened.

Ectomancer's idea seems to be that either Troll or Elmo (and him clearly be leaning towards Troll) held off on bussing Adel day two until after shortly him pointed out that Adel's being left alive would be bad for the scum in Post 1046. Troll disagrees with the premise there altogether. For one thing, Troll voted Adel in Post 1369 which wasn't particularly soon after Ectomancer's post. Further, if we had mislynched town on day two we would have gone into day three already at LyLo. The scum clearly would have had every reason to kill Porkens during the night and although it be likely that Adel would have been the lynch on day three anyhow him set up his reason for not having protected Porkens directly after Ectomancer's post:

Leaving Adel alive would certainly put a fake claiming scum in a bind wouldn't it? Having only claimed a 1-shot, maybe he could try saying he was playing chicken with scum and lost if the cop dies, but seriously, he would be the lynch tomorrow if that happened.

this, so long as there isn't anther outed power-role. Right now I have a LG:Porkens coin flip to consider (assuming that we lynch spring, and spring is town, if spring is non-GF scum then obviously I would protect LG, also assuming that Porken's claim holds up to questioning) -- and if another PR gets outed then we lose a PR tonight, guaranteed.

It probably wouldn't have worked and we probably would have lynched Adel the following day but that wouldn't have put scum in any worse a situation than them be in now; LyLo with five alive. Further, the most likely other candidate for the lynch at the end of day two was springlullaby who Porkens had an innocent investigation on. If we want to believe that investigation then the scum are in a worse position today than them would have been as they haven't gotten rid of that role. Going for the bus at that time rather than a town mislynch given the potential setups for the following day would be a poor choice. Troll knows that Troll wouldn't have done it were Troll scum and Troll no thinks that Elmo would have.

As for the idea that Troll has been bandied about in many potential partnerships and hence be more likely to be scum, that be a result of DrippingGoofball being sure that Troll was scum and looking for a partner that best fit the facts as much as anything else. It do be curious that BridgesAndBaloons now be pushing the same Troll, Vi scum team that Adel did but outside of those Troll no sees more partnerships being proposed that involve Troll than anyone else. Further, if it was scum doing this pairing then it certainly wasn't Troll so it must have been Troll's partner. That would be DrippingGoofball (who we know be town) or BridgesAndBaloons who Porkens got the innocent investigation on. Unless Ectomancer be ready to say that Troll and BridgesAndBaloons be the scum team this argument no has any merit at all.

Troll will briefly address BridgesAndBaloons's arguments in Troll's next post but this one be long enough for now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll has a couple reactions to the lettered points that BridgesAndBaloons brought up at the end of the day yesterday.

E

Troll has no trouble keeping Troll's vote on whoever Troll finds the scummiest regardless of who else is voting them unless it be getting close to deadline and Troll needs to vote to prevent a no lynch or when Troll's vote be important for preventing what Troll thinks would be a mislynch.

F

Troll felt that Porkens was tunneling on Adel and wanted to figure out who else him found worth looking at at the time. Porkens in that stretch no was being overly responsive and Troll still suspected him.

G

Troll no thought that springlullaby was looking particularly more town at that point. Troll just thought that DrippingGoofball was looking worse.

I

No one had responded to Troll's initial reasons for voting DrippingGoofball so Troll took to asking people one at a time. Troll no was asking people to vote for DrippingGoofball, just making sure that them were paying attention to her. If Troll's question to Vi was a request that Vi vote DrippingGoofball why was that not true of others?

L

Lord Gurgi had been indicating that he thought the springlullaby lynch might be worth it. At the time Troll's preferred lynch was DrippingGoofball but Adel was a better choice than springlullaby. Troll explained that when Troll went over Troll's reasons for the hammer. If BridgesAndBaloons has a problem with Troll no wanting springlullaby to have been lynched at that stage in the game then Troll doubts anything Troll says will make a difference to BridgesAndBaloons.

M

Adel flipping scum didn't change the reasons that Troll had found DrippingGoofball so Troll had every reason to vote for DrippingGoofball again. Troll was wrong about DrippingGoofball but Troll found her easily the scummiest at the end of day two and start of day three (and for the rest of day three for that matter.)

N

Adel no posted anything between being at L-2 and being lynched. Him no had a chance to complain about being quick lynched at L-1. Troll had the information Troll wanted when Elmo cast his vote.

What Troll be struggling with at this time regarding BridgesAndBaloons be a desire not to be reacting to accusations and the investigation result from Porkens versus the play from springlullaby, the fact that BridgesAndBaloons seems to be trying to find reasons to suspect Troll in particular and the way the end of day three went down.

As Troll said a couple posts ago we had three weeks to get through the day yesterday. BridgesAndBaloons certainly deserved to take some time getting caught up but there really be no excuse to take the first half of the day just reading through what has happened before and then the second half not getting around to making the case on Troll that him clearly had figured out at the end of the day until the last possible hours.

Troll no minds if others find Troll suspicious. That be part of the game. Troll did however do Troll's best to answer the questions that BridgesAndBaloons asked during his read through. Troll has reason to think that these answers weren't particularly paid attention to as Troll's answers were never referenced and we had this pair of exchanges:

Troll, please answer this question immediately:

What do you think of me right now as far as likely hood of scum?

BridgesAndBaloons might be a God Father or Porkens might have been a naive or insane cop but those both seem unlikely to Troll. springlullaby's posts towards the end of her time in the game lead Troll to believe that she was playing poorly rather than her being scum. Troll finds it pretty likely that BridgesAndBaloons be town at this time.

Lord Gurgi, for BridgesAndBaloons to be part of any scum team him would have to be a godfather or Porkens would have to be naive or insane. Any of those be possible but just because BridgesAndBaloons thinks that DrippingGoofball be town no be a reason to assume them be the case.

DrippingGoofball, Ectomancer already be voting for Troll as of post 1571.
Lord Gurgi, for BridgesAndBaloons to be part of any scum team him would have to be a godfather or Porkens would have to be naive or insane. Any of those be possible but just because BridgesAndBaloons thinks that DrippingGoofball be town no be a reason to assume them be the case.

I'm biased.

Someone else look at this

: is this troll's pro-town attempt to get someone he thinks is town off of voting me, or is this troll's manipulation of trying to get me to think that he's town. The later might be working.

If BridgesAndBaloons had been reading Troll's answers to the questions him was asking then the repetition by Troll of exactly the same reasons Troll had expressed recently to think that BridgesAndBaloons likely be town no would have warranted that comment.

If BridgesAndBaloons felt as strongly as him did that Troll was the better lynch than DrippingGoofball him should have put his vote on Troll and kept it there and made the case that him alluded to three days before deadline. The strong push at the very end puts Troll in a much worse light coming into day four than Troll thinks Troll would have been otherwise which scum have every reason to want to do if a day is coming down to a lynch between two townies. It feels like an attempt to make accusations against Troll that Troll no had the chance to respond to at the time in the hopes that a townie would vote for Troll early day four. Either Ectomancer has done this and the scum no have been able to coordinate a hammer or Ectomancer be scum.

Troll's imagination be somewhat active. It be pretty easy to envision a situation now where BridgesAndBaloons does be a God Father with someone and be cashing in on that investigation result by Porkens to push a case on Troll in which Troll no wants to push back. It actually be pretty easy to square Adel being on the springlullaby wagon at the end of day two with that as it would give Adel a pretty legitimate reason not to have protected Porkens should his innocent investigation end up being a God Father.

Troll would prefer not to succumb to what feels to Troll like that much of conspiracy theory just yet though. Troll would like to see what everyone else does. Right now Troll has more reason to suspect Ectomancer with his early vote in any case. Should him choose to leave it Troll will probably reciprocate if Troll no does get quick hammered before too long as that would be as much proof as Troll could have that him be scum.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll no thinks that there was any particular play on day one by springlullaby that would have invited an investigation. Troll knows she would have been high on Troll's list of investigations if only to not have to worry about her in the future but that was just overall play. If BridgesAndBaloons do be a God Father then Troll thinks it be largely scum being lucky with the cop investigation and playing it correctly rather than a deliberate investigation draw. Troll also no be saying that BridgesAndBaloons be likely to be scum, just that Troll be exploring the play Troll sees with the new knowledge that DrippingGoofball was in fact town.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

BridgesAndBaloons, Troll has tried playing how you ask in the past. Troll answered all the questions that you asked during day three as briefly and clearly as Troll could and you still focused almost exclusively on Troll as the primary suspect without seeming to take anything Troll had said into account. If you be town then Troll no thinks that anything Troll can say will be of help here and the town be lost anyhow. Given that, Troll made the initial arguments that Troll felt were important to make at this time as Troll would normally make them. Troll encourages you to read what Troll has written and try to make an objective choice but trying to appease you even when Troll has been saying you should be town no has done any good and Troll no be willing to continue with an approach which no be working.

Playing better under pressure be fine but it no be an reasonable excuse for waiting as long as you did to try to make a convincing case yesterday.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Playing better under pressure be fine but it no be an reasonable excuse for waiting as long as you did to try to make a convincing case yesterday.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

My case was convincing?

It be pretty clear to Troll that you tried to make a convincing case. Troll no thinks that it was and has given the reasons why your points no should be. Troll no knows if it was convincing to others or not.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Gurgi unvoted IIRC to collect his thoughts about the matter, but I thought he was still inclined to hammer. Elmo took that opportunity to grab the L-1 spot, probably expecting as I did that Gurgi would hammer, however Zorblag then decided to join the popular wagon by hammering, and that wagon was actually larger than just the amount to hammer because Gurgi appeared to be supporting it as well. I dont think it farfetched at all for both scum to jump on the 6 player strong voting bloc on someone they would know was going to turn up scum.

So here be what Lord Gurgi had said leading up to Troll's hammer of Adel that made Troll think that this no was the case and that in fact Lord Gurgi was considering voting for springlullaby rather than Adel:

Spring, I'm not going to point out what I see as obvious, and if you're not aware of it, there's no point anyway. Just know that it sure seems to everyone else like you are insulting.

Suspicion on Porkens and Spring for having Spring find the breadcrumb. Porkens, if you had a breadcrumb, why not point it out?

So Spring, if the entire scumteam stayed off the wagon, it is safe to say we are not in lylo, or mylo for that matter and that we have at least one free lynch. Correct?

See, if we have an extra lynch, which we do if you're right about the scum, and two scum kill is silly and 4 scum still has the same problem as before (why didn't they hammer if it would have won them the game) so, we can lynch you to prove Porken's claim with no significant consequences.

Spring you're flaming and refusing to clarify on multiple points, that is the definition of not helpful. I'm not going to bother making a case against you because you don't care what I say, won't read it anyway, and are going to pick on semantics and treat it as defeated as you have with all cases against you before.

When it is possible, cop claims should be tested. Why don't you just be honest and admit the only problem you have with the plan is that you are the one we need to lynch. If it was lynching me or anyone else you'd be first onto the bandwagon.

I'm unsure why you're acting like OMGUS is going to improve my opinion of you.

Towards the end of day two Lord Gurgi was saying much that led Troll to believe that him was giving serious consideration to a springlullaby lynch. As Troll has already said, Troll felt that this would be a worse choice than the Adel lynch. That Ectomancer be saying that Troll should have assumed that Lord Gurgi was probably going to vote for Adel no jives with what Troll saw in what Lord Gurgi had been saying.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Ectomancer 1739: A quick look at Master Gurgington's last posts of D2 reveals...
<edit: Troll already quoted these>
I will grant that he was "ticked at Adel" for a while, but for several pages before the end of the Day he shifted his attention to springlullaby, specifically testing Porkens' Cop claim.
So I don't buy that it was just expected that Lord Gurgi would hop on Adel; quite the opposite.

You know what, I'm starting to think about this. You make a good point. Perhaps Troll was being pro-town to vote for adel. What I don't understand is why in merlin's name didn't troll explain that

when

he lynched? Why didn't he announce his plans ahead of time? It still seems so sudden to me. 6ish (forgot the number) posts after adel gets to L-1, he hammers?

I'm still seeing an abruptness which I don't understand. Was it really going to switch to a SL vote any time soon?

Troll did explain that this was the issue when Troll lynched Adel in Post 1369.

DrippingGoofball still be the better choice but it seems that no will happen and Adel be a much better lynch than springlullaby. At this point springlullaby be much more likely to be scum bait than scum in Troll's assessment and the risk/reward of potentially wasting what probably be our last mislynch today to get an inconclusive verification on Porkens as opposed to lynching Adel who has looked worse and worse as the day has gone on just no be worth it.

...

At this point Troll thinks that it do be time to end things before the wagon on springlullaby can gain enough steam to be truly viable (Troll be worried about how Lord Gurgi has been reacting towards it since this morning.)

The springlullaby wagon towards the end of day two sprang up very quickly and got to three votes with the potential of Lord Gurgi adding on during a stretch when Troll wasn't about for a day. Troll no knows if there would have been danger of a fourth vote for springlullaby after that but it was momentum in a dangerous direction and Troll thought it was safer to end the possibility then rather than let DrippingGoofball and Adel try to talk others into voting for springlullaby.

I No one had responded to Troll's initial reasons for voting DrippingGoofball so Troll took to asking people one at a time. Troll no was asking people to vote for DrippingGoofball, just making sure that them were paying attention to her. If Troll's question to Vi was a request that Vi vote DrippingGoofball why was that not true of others?

I'm not sure what you're saying in the last question.

As to the first part of this quote, did any one respond to your reasons for voting SL (besides SL?)

Troll had been asking many people individually to give reactions to Troll's case on DrippingGoofball. Troll no requested that anyone vote for DrippingGoofball as that no be Troll's style most of the time. Troll no understands why questioning Vi in particular should stand out as asking Vi to vote for DrippingGoofball when you no think that Troll would have been doing the same to others.

L

Lord Gurgi had been indicating that he thought the springlullaby lynch might be worth it. At the time Troll's preferred lynch was DrippingGoofball but Adel was a better choice than springlullaby. Troll explained that when Troll went over Troll's reasons for the hammer.

If BridgesAndBaloons has a problem with Troll no wanting springlullaby to have been lynched at that stage in the game then Troll doubts anything Troll says will make a difference to BridgesAndBaloons

.

Lol there's

some

sort of persuasion technique here. Pathos? You're trying to spin my attack on you for jumping on a wagon to my attack on you for jumping away from a different wagon.

JUST because I thought it was anti-town for you to vote Adel how you did, does not mean I thought it was pro-town for you to vote SL.

That actually be more an expression of frustration than an attempt to persuade. So far as Troll can tell BridgesAndBaloons thinks that Troll was scummy (among other reasons) for suspecting springlullaby for good portions of the first two days of the game. BridgesAndBaloons also seems to think that Troll be scummy for lynching Adel over srpinglullaby at the end of day two after new information had come up. If Troll was scum Troll would have had very little reason not to continue to support a mislynch of a town springlullaby. As BridgesAndBaloons knows what springlullaby's alignment was Troll's general feeling be that finding it scummy that Troll moved from a position where Troll would have been fine with lynching springlullaby to one where Troll actively voted to prevent it by lynching Adel makes it unlikely that BridgesAndBaloons will find anything Troll does non-scummy. This was compounded by the lack of recognition of other things that Troll had said.

M

Adel flipping scum didn't change the reasons that Troll had found DrippingGoofball so Troll had every reason to vote for DrippingGoofball again. Troll was wrong about DrippingGoofball but Troll found her easily the scummiest at the end of day two and start of day three (and for the rest of day three for that matter.)

Do you often have your beliefs unshaken by scum flips? I'm surprised by this. It seems very illogical for someone who apears as logical as you do.

I know that I recheck my beliefs after

every

flip. Regardless of whether scum or town died.

When someone you expect to flip scum flips scum does that shake your beliefs? Troll no understands how this should be an issue.

Adel flipping scum fit well with Troll's suspicion of DrippingGoofball at the end of day two. It was the result that Troll thought was more likely than not to occur when Troll cast the vote. Certainly, Troll took a look to make sure that none of Troll's previous assumptions were invalidated but them weren't. Adel flipping scum was more consistent with DrippingGoofball being scum than Adel flipping town (if Adel had flipped town then DrippingGoofball would have had to have planted the bussing thing in the hopes that someone would pick it up and use it against Adel.)

Troll has reason to think that these answers weren't particularly paid attention to as Troll's answers were never referenced and we had this pair of exchanges

Often times (see my question to Vi) I ask questions expecting a certain anti-town response. When I don't get that response, the answers become null-tells and I find them irrelevant. For example, for the first question, I didn't realized there was an investigation on me; anyway, I wanted to see if you were going with the flow with ideas about my alignment (possibly scummy behavior).

Thinking that something be a null tell and not remembering that it was something Troll had said a short while later be two different things. If Troll's answer to your first question was where you learned that you were the one Porkens investigated Troll would expect you to have a reasonable chance to remember Troll's reaction to it as well. Troll wonders what sort of answer Troll could have given that you would have been able to remember.

If BridgesAndBaloons felt as strongly as him did that Troll was the better lynch than DrippingGoofball him should have put his vote on Troll and kept it there and made the case that him alluded to three days before deadline.

Here's the thing. I have to admit something. As much as I thought DGB was town... I was far less sure that you were scum. And if came down to a mislynch between you and a mislynch of DGB, I'd much rather prefer DGB. Not because of players (no offense troll, but I love DGB), but because of the overall town attitude.

Everyone thought DGB was scum, so keeping her around would be stupid.

Does that make sense? I didn't want to vote you unless I was very sure you were scum. If I wasn't sure, then I probably would have been fine with DGB, who wouldn't survive unlynched all game anyway.

But then, after my readthrough, I was pretty confident you were scum. Now there's been two flips (LG and DGB), and as always, I recheck my thoughts.

Troll has no trouble accepting all of that up until the last paragraph. What Troll has much more trouble with be that you became confident that Troll was scum at the very last hours of the day to the point where you made a serious effort to get a last minute vote change from Elmo despite the fact that people were as suspicious as they were of DrippingGoofball. If the arguments you made at the end had been made sooner there would have been time to reply to them. Troll might not have changed your opinion but everyone else would have had time to take them in and make informed rather than rushed decisions. We had three weeks to do analysis. Last minute epiphanies in a close situation like that when there be no new information that be used to make them make Troll suspicious.

Okay, so to be clear, your top suspect is Ecto? THat makes things interesting.

Ectomancer do be my top suspect at this time, yes. Troll would be interested to hear what you think Elmo has done that makes him particularly likely to be town but for Troll him be a gray area. Vi be playing with stronger convictions than Troll expects from scum. Ectomancer has been playing in the background and has been on the sides of most wagons that Troll disagrees with. Troll has said why Troll thinks his current reasons for being sure enough to vote for Troll now no be compelling. Troll also agrees with what others have said about his reasons for not keeping his vote on Troll if him be sure Troll be scum. Either him be town and unsure and unvoted for that reason (which no matches what him has said) or him be scum and knows that if him kept his vote on long enough Troll would eventually be sure that him was scum as the other scum would have hammered.

Troll has problems with how both springlullaby and BridgesAndBaloons have played but them no be in the lead for suspicions from Troll at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Hmm, we no seem to be doing all that much. The deadline be next Tuesday, July 28th so we should be having what discussion we want to now so that it no be rushed and all can participate.

Troll has a couple questions:

BridgesAndBaloons, Troll asked a few posts ago but it might get lost in the middle. Why is it that you be so sure that Elmo be town at this time?

Ectomancer, what do you think of Troll's responses to your stated reasons for suspecting Troll? If your opinion be unchanged and strong enough for you to be sure that Troll be the one you will vote for what be the point in not voting for Troll now? Troll supposes that Troll can see thinking someone might reveal more when under the pressure of a vote but Troll no sees why you think unvoting will make Troll talk more.

Elmo, it feels like you have been saying that you need to re-read/get caught up since at least the middle of day three. Does there be a reason that this no has happened beyond simple procrastination? Do you think that helps the town's chances of winning?

Vi, you also said you had a re-read to do over the weekend to look at a few things. Did anything come of that?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

And what Troll said about your reasons for suspecting Troll did little to convince you Troll takes it?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Ectomancer, could you give your current reasons for thinking that Troll be the most likely scum given your alter perceptions after what Troll said about your case? Troll would like to see why you be confident enough to be voting Troll at this time.

BridgesAndBaloons, Troll would like it if you could look at Elmo's play after day one and find the things that Elmo has done or said that makes him look town to you. Troll feels that him has played a fairly background game without contributing much since at least day two. Troll likes some of what Elmo did early but no has any good reasons to agree that Elmo be most likely to be town based on his recent play. Days three and four in particular feel like a clinic in stalling rather than giving input in the game. At one point Elmo posited that Troll was playing a gray man scum game. This description feels to Troll like it could be easily applied to Elmo at this time.

As for the reasons Troll suspects Ectomancer more than others, here be the major points. Troll be happy to expand on any if people like but Troll will keep this brief for now.

Ectomancer's vote on day two for springlullaby seems to have been a poor move to Troll. Ectomancer said that him suspected that Porkens and springlullaby were a scum team and never seemed to back off on that. Troll thinks that the choice of springlullaby for the lynch over Adel after Porkens's cop reveal was one that furthered a scum agenda rather than a town agenda.

Ectomancer stayed largely in the background during day three. Him gave his bussing idea and little else in terms of contribution towards finding scum. Him said that him was willing to vote for any other than BridgesAndBaloons or Lord Gurgi. Him had no hesitation at all when it came to voting for Troll when BridgesAndBaloons did so towards the end of the day. Troll never saw any reason why Troll would have been a better vote than Elmo on day three.

Ectomancer's vote for Troll at the start of day four with no initial comment and subsequent withdrawal when Troll no got other votes be an issue for Troll. Troll would expect town to be more concerned with being right about their vote in the LyLo situation that we almost certainly be in.

Ectomancer no has wavered at all this day in his suspicion of Troll. Troll be biased here as Troll knows that Troll be town but Ectomancer's desire to see more analysis for Troll feels a bit false given how little we have seen from Elmo who, so far as Troll can tell, meets the same criteria for scumminess that Ectomancer be using as his case at this time. Further, Troll finds it somewhat telling that Ectomancer be complaining about the lack of contribution from Troll when him has done so little to help find scum himself.

For Troll personally there also be the fact that Troll no has been lynched yet. Troll knows that Troll be town. If Ectomancer also be town then all the scum need to do to win be to cast the other two votes to win the game. Troll realizes that others no will find this compelling as them no know that Troll no be scum.

Basically Ectomancer has stayed in mostly the background since day one and be going for an easy mislynch now that we be in LyLo for reasons that Troll no thinks should be compelling. BridgesAndBaloons's reaction to Troll's play in this game makes Troll most likely the easiest mislynch as Troll was wrong about DrippingGoofball. Ectomancer seems to be trying to take advantage of that without contributing to the game otherwise.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

BridgesAndBaloons's reaction to Troll's play in this game makes Troll most likely the easiest mislynch as Troll was wrong about DrippingGoofball.

It looks like you're boiling down my case on you into a simple voting you for mislynching. This misrepresentation makes me angry. My case doesn't even mention the fact that DGB was a mislynch as a point against you. The only thing that came close to that is suspecting you for your very quick hammer. Not for the

who

of the hammer.

Troll no had the particulars of BridgesAndBaloons's case in mind at all when Troll made that statement. Troll be a bit curious to see what it be in brief at this point but Troll was referring to the way that BridgesAndBaloons seemed to start thinking that Troll was scum with various degrees of strength almost as soon as him entered the game. If Troll had been right about DrippingGoofball and she had flipped scum then this no would be nearly as much of an issue now. As DrippingGoofball flipped town it makes Troll's position vulnerable. If BridgesAndBaloons be town then Troll most likely be the easiest mislynch for scum to arrange given those two things together.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Ectomancer, Troll no was asking you to post once more the reasons that you be voting for Troll just to see them. Troll wanted to know if you were interested in giving any revisions to them based on however your perceptions might have been altered based on what you said. Apparently that no be the case. Troll gave the reasons that Troll's hammer of Adel on day two no should have been motivated by a scum fear of Adel's staying alive would hurt the scum team but your main case still seems to hinge on that.

You no will be able to convince Troll that Troll be scum, that be true. Troll knows that Troll be town. You no need to convince the scum that Troll be scum either as them know it be false but have every reason to want to lynch Troll at this time. Troll thought that you might want to try to convince the town that you still had reasons you thought were compelling for being as sure of your vote as you be and Troll was interested in trying to address them but that no seems to be the case.

If Ectomancer be town at this point then the only reason scum no have won is that them no have managed to coordinate their votes to lynch Troll. Troll thinks that be unlikely. In any case, as Ectomancer seems to be set with his vote and Troll knows that him be wrong about Troll being scum there no longer be a reason for Troll to hold back with:

Vote: Ectomancer

Troll still be working out who the most likely partner be. Right now Troll's guess be Elmo based on lack of apparent interest in figuring things out (or generally participating) in the game but Troll will how everyone reacts to this for now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Ectomancer, Troll never said that your case came out of nowhere. Troll no be sure how you be getting that. Troll does think that the case no be compelling but that be something else entirely. Your play day three did lead up to the vote for Troll based largely on the last minute panicked bussing at the end of day two idea but having that lead up no made it a sound theory.

BridgesAndBaloons, Troll be having trouble with your certainty that Elmo be town but Troll no will push it now. Troll will again ask that you make sure you look through the reasons you have for thinking it at some point rather than simply assuming you have it right but Troll agrees that today it be almost certain that Ectomancer or Troll will be lynched and Troll would rather have you focusing on the two of us now and making the most informed decision that you can.

Mod: Can you prod Elmo?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll at this time has ruled out the scum teams that include two of BridgesAndBaloons, Elmo and Vi. If any two of them be scum them should have won already. If it turns out that them simply no be coordinating well then Troll will be irritated but there be nothing Troll can do to prevent it given Ectomancer's stance.

Elmo, you seem to have the same suspects now that you have for a while. Has anything that has happened today swayed you at all? Could you give us a brief run-down of your reasons for suspecting Ectomancer and Troll?

It's pretty much granted that Elmo and Troll (henceforth referred to as Trollmo, or Elmoll) are not both scum. That leaves the following pairings, for visual convenience.

*Ectomancer and Trollmo (one of the two)
*B&B and Trollmo
*Ectomancer and B&B

I'm not going to worry about Trollmo, and instead focus on the other two. Both of them

scream

scum to me, investigation or no. So reading the last three pages ( Very Happy ), these are the questions I have.

Oh yeah VI, you say two of them scream scum to you: which of the two are you talking about "Me, Ecto, and/or Elmo?"

Troll has trouble understanding how BridgesAndBaloons could need to ask that question given what Vi had said the post before.

The thing that worries Troll most at this stage in the game be that everyone (and this includes Troll) be dangerously complacent for a LyLo situation. Troll respects the play of everyone still in this game. Troll thinks that all want to win. The scum benefit if we do nothing and simply make a last minute choice. Why is it then that we're having this much trouble with inertia now?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

No, it would be more than that even if Troll was scum. The scum do have a motivation to keep things slow as Troll said but the town should be trying to make sure that we avoid a mislynch today and going over what we know and having some discussion. This seems to stretch back to day three actually. There it was easier to identify. People were waiting for BridgesAndBaloons to finish catching up and the lack of activity no gave BridgesAndBaloons good motivation to catch up. What Troll no be sure about be why it be extending into day four.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

BridgesAndBaloons, your list be fine but Troll assumes that everyone has made one by now. For your list in particular you can remove the Elmo, Vi scum team as them should already have won. Troll does hope that you will find time soon to look at the other players in depth.

Elmo, Troll will again request that you take this time to get involved in the game again. If you be town then we benefit greatly from you making an effort to find scum at this point.

Vi, Troll thinks that it might be helpful if you answer BridgesAndBaloons's last question. Troll no be worried about it as Troll knows that Troll be town but explaining your certainty would be handy. Troll will also note that the bulk of your arguments this day do rest on the assumption that you be town which the rest of us no have a strong reason to believe intrinsically.

Troll no be sure what Troll can do to help the town at this point. Troll could restate the things Troll has said already but that no seems as though it would add anything if people be reading the game. Troll knows that Ectomancer must be scum or we would have already lost. Past that Troll plans to use the information we get from the votes today and who gets killed this night assuming that it be Ectomancer we lynch today to figure out who be his likely partner.

Troll be happy to answer any questions that people have and make whatever case be desired but Troll's position be pretty much fixed other than that. Troll has said what Troll would like to see (cases from all other than Ectomancer (who it no be worth asking for cases from) and reasons why others think that players no should be scum) but other than asking for those Troll no sees much Troll should be doing. If any would like anything else do let Troll know and Troll will try to provide it.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh.

[Zorblag]

As far as my reasoning relying on me being Town, I wouldn't count myself as anything else in my own analysis. If you have a reason to dispute my Towniness, I'd like to hear it.

Of all the players left other than Troll, Troll finds Vi to be most likely to be town but Troll no be making the assumption that it be the case. The sort of thing that Troll be a bit leery of here be that Vi seems to be assuming that others will take it for granted that Vi be town when them make their decisions. For example, looking at what Vi would expect Ectomancer to be deciding between:

Ectomancer: You said in 1723 that s-lully was unlikely to be the Godfather. But realize that based on the vote count and the premise that both scum are not in Trollmo that

either you or B&B must be scum

. The notion that Lord Gurgi was trying to decide which mole to hammer has been shown to be basically unfounded. If B&B is not a Godfather, this means that you are scum by PoE. Any significant objections?

Troll actually expected Ectomancer to object to that for a couple reasons. First off, so far as Troll can tell based on what him has said him no has accepted the reasons that you be giving that Elmo and Troll no be scum together. Second, Ectomancer no should share your certainty that you be town. Him didn't so Troll be bringing it up now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

2: If SL really was innocent (and scum would know), they would avoid that wagon like the plaque, and no, I don't see them "hoping" for a QL with one of them tossing on a vote and seeing if the other got there in time. Your idea that both Troll and Elmo avoiding a toxic wagon together negates them from being scum together is a load of crap logic. Psychology says the opposite in fact. Fire is hot, don't touch it without a good reason. They didn't even have time to talk about the possibility, so you think one of them would have had the balls to jump alone in good faith?

Well, with Adel on the springlullaby wagon that no can be completely true just based on how things went. Further, Troll has already said that the argument there be flawed. The scum would benefit much more from having an innocent investigated by a cop killed and then killing the cop that night then they would from killing scum and then killing the cop during the night. Adel had already set up a reason to claim him protected Lord Gurgi but even if that failed when the dust settled it those that were gone would be the cop, his confirmed innocent and one scum rather than what we ended up with, the cop, one scum and DrippingGoofball who would likely have been a potential mislynch in LyLo.

It no be a matter of being ballsy, it be a matter of making the desicion that be likely to benefit the scum more in the long run. In the situation we were in at the end of day two that would have been to lynch springlullaby rather than Adel if it were an option. Troll saying it be WIFOM but if Troll were scum, given all the suspicion Troll had shown for springlullaby for most of days one and two there be very little chance Troll would choose to lynch a partner over her especially once it became known that she had drawn a cop investigation. It just be a much worse play.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Murphy's law: I am now hella ill. That aside, I have yet to hear a good argument against my process of elimination, really. EcTroll, from my point of view, who is EcTroll's scumbuddy?

Troll do be sorry that you no be feeling well. It do be an unfortunate time for that to happen in this game and it just be no fun to be sick in general. Troll no be entirely sure what your process of elimination be here. Troll accepts that you think that both Ectomancer and Troll be likely candidates for scum but Troll would really like it if you could look over what has happened recently and see if one of us seems a better candidate than the other. Troll thinks that it be Ectomancer and Ectomancer would clearly disagree. What matters will be what Elmo (and BridgesAndBaloons and Vi) think.

Assuming Elmo be town then Troll assumes that him would find Vi the most likely partner for Troll at this time. Troll no be sure which of BridgesAndBaloons would be the chose as Ectomancer's partner but given what Elmo has said about thinking that BridgesAndBaloons's play Troll might guess Vi again. Troll thinks that both BridgesAndBaloons and Elmo would benefit a fair amount from looking at each other's play and seeing if them still hold these beliefs but, as Troll has said before, that no be the top priority just now.

Can I trust you guys not to NL if I have to randomly disappear? Otherwise I'll put a vote out tonight..ish.

If Elmo be town then the only way that scum gets lynched today if Elmo no votes is if one scum votes to lynch the other. Were Troll in Elmo's position as town there be no way Troll would willingly let it come down to that.

If you be town, please try to make your best choice even if it has to be today; leaving the decision to others this day (especially if it be known that you might not be around for the end of the day) heavily favors the scum given our situation.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Assuming Elmo be town then Troll assumes that him would find Vi the most likely partner for Troll at this time. Troll no be sure which of BridgesAndBaloons would be the chose as Ectomancer's partner but given what Elmo has said about thinking that BridgesAndBaloons's play Troll might guess Vi again.

It occurs to Troll that Troll should probably spell the first of those out. Troll assumes that Elmo would pick Vi over BridgesAndBaloons as a partner for Troll as with Vi's vote for Ectomancer the Troll and BridgesAndBaloons scum team would essentially already have the win.

Troll also with a little more thought of what Elmo might be working with realizes that Elmo might think that Troll and Ectomancer be the scum team together. Given Elmo's stated suspicions that might actually be the most likely case.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Ectomancer, shouldn't you now be sure that Elmo be town as you no were hammered with his last post? Does your last post be anything other than an attempt to make us look more likely to be partners if we lynch you today?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Elmo, Post 1761 gives a brief (for Troll) case on why Troll finds Ectomancer likely to be scum. Post 1787 gives the reason why Ectomancer's main point against Troll (that Troll lynched Adel rather than trying to lynch springlullaby on day two because it was the better move for scum to make) no makes sense.

As for Ectomancer's partner, Troll still be trying to figure that out. Troll's suspicions would go Elmo, BridgesAndBaloons and then Vi, in that order but the votes today and the kill tonight will be pretty important for swaying Troll's opinions.

Elmo tops the list because him has not seemed to take an interest in the game in these past couple days when we be in the most important stretch of the game to make the right decisions. BridgesAndBaloons be second because Troll feels that his play (and in particular how him has interacted with Troll) be fairly scummy. The thing that keeps him off of being Troll's first choice after Ectomancer be the investigation result from Porkens. Vi be last not because Troll thinks him be super likely to be town but because Troll sees him trying to put the effort in and him be coming to conclusions that Troll agrees with more often than not. It could be him playing well as scum but it feels like him be the worst choice of the three at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll be looking at the same situation as Elmo so far as BridgesAndBaloons go. Troll has reasons to think that neither of them should be scum. Troll also knows that Troll be town and that Ectomancer has a partner if we be in a three scum setup (and two scum would be underpowered so Troll thinks that we can make that assumption.)

Troll can only make of Elmo's play what Troll sees of it. Right now Troll sees someone who no has been trying to figure out what be going on based on recent activity. If it do be laziness because you think you know the setup then so be it but Troll knows that if you have concluded that the remaining scum be Ectomancer and Troll that you be wrong. Troll would like to think that Elmo no would stop looking at what be said at the end of the game when him makes his choices.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

EPWOP:

Troll be looking at the same situation as Elmo so far as BridgesAndBaloons

and Vi

go.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

BridgesAndBaloons, had you given an Ectomancer, Troll scum team any serious consideration previously (Troll no sees any evidence that you had)? Given your suspicions it seems as though it would have been somewhat natural. Does there be a reason that you be bringing it up now as opposed to earlier?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

So let's see if Troll has this right. BridgesAndBaloons now knows that at least one of Ectomancer and Troll be scum. Troll agrees with that as there no has been a hammer of either of the two of us. From that the two cases BridgesAndBaloons breaks the game into be the case where Ectomancer be Scum and the case where Ectomancer be town. As it be possible that Ectomancer be scum with Troll (and this be temporarily? the most likely case) the conclusion that be that it makes sense to immediately vote for Troll since Troll be scum in both scenarios.

Here be Troll's counter proposal which suffers exactly the same problems and no should be taken any more seriously than what BridgesAndBaloons be saying.

BridgesAndBaloons should break the game into the cases where Troll be town and Troll be scum.

If Troll be town then Ectomancer must be scum. If Troll be scum then Ectomancer could still be scum with Troll (and that pairing be temporarily the most likely.) Therefore it can only make sense to immediately vote for Ectomancer as Ectomacer be scum in both scenarios.

Troll will get to more later but BridgesAndBaloons "reasoning" in that last post deserved comment as soon as possible.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

I don't always know what I'm looking for when I do things like unvote so Zorblag can talk, but its crazy how it can work out. I truly had no idea who Zorblag's partner was (and seriously my attention out in here in RL is to the point I didn't really plan on looking either). Makes this a wrap for me. Lynch Zorblag today, Vi tomorrow and we win, yay I win my last game lets go home woohoo *sigh*

But Troll's talking had nothing to do with your certainty. That you can claim certainty simply comes from the votes from Troll and Vi for you and that others didn't hammer. Your unvote, if anything delayed that as Troll took longer to be certain that you must be scum as Troll no was quick hammered.

Really I don't have the drive to convince you except I think my posts have plainly led up to the opinions I have and the motivations behind what I've done. In fact, if anything meta ever applied anywhere at anyfrickin time, I would say that the path of going after Zorblag would certainly not be my path of least resistance as a scumbag with a partner around for me to be a slackass on.

Troll attributes it more to the fact that you don't have a decent case against Troll and that all you have left is repeating the reasons that you have had without change since you started building up to a reason to vote for either Troll or Elmo at the start of day three. Going after Troll became the path of least resistance when BridgesAndBaloons finally got around to voting for Troll and you could be somewhat certain that DrippingGoofball would follow suit. If you were doing something other than following that path of least resistance and you had become convinced that it was Troll who was scum you could have used your ability to try to convince others and vote much sooner.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

BridgesAndBaloons last post be one more in a pattern of play where him be looking for reasons to find Troll suspicious or vote for Troll. That him continues to assume that Elmo be town despite what I think of as neutral play at best from Elmo of late shows a lack of interest in actually reasoning who scum be based on the evidence that we be accruing. Now him be assuming Vi should be town because Vi be willing to reject the certainty of the investigation. Except that if Ectomancer be town then him be willing to accept that Vi must be scum with Troll. If BridgesAndBaloons really thinks that be a possibiilty then Troll would think that him would entertain the possibility of an Ectomancer Vi partnership as well. Somehow this got no play at all.

The only two things that Troll be sure of at this time be that Troll be town and Ectomancer be scum. If we lynch Troll today none of the rest of this matters. If we lynch Ectomancer today then Troll be more and more certain that him will come up goon.

The reason that BridgesAndBaloons has been given such leeway be that Porkens got an innocent investigation on springlullaby. There no was any particular play from springlullaby that looked like it was an attempt to draw an investigation (Troll thought her play was poor throughout day one but Troll was in a bit of a minority there) so the assumption be that it would just be really bad luck on the towns part if the cop managed to investigate a godfather springlullaby night one. If that was what happened Troll thinks that it was just bad luck for the town.

On the other hand, we be in a game with a roleblocker, a cop and a one shot vig. Troll thinks that there do be a decent chance that there would be an investigation immune godfather in that setup. It no be guaranteed but it certainly be a reasonable town setup to use a two goon, godfather scum team with.

springlullaby's play was terrible for the most part. There were marked changes in her suspicions for reasons that she never explained between day one and day two. She voted Vi at the start of day two and then later gave as her reason she thought Vi was suspicious something she said she noticed after she had cast her vote. The scum teams that she listed towards the end of day two bordered on nonsense. Troll dropped springlullaby as Troll's vote in day one when DrippingGoofball started acting more suspicious and then we got Porkens's investigation which Troll believed.

BridgesAndBaloons has come in and thrown everything him can a Troll; misrepresnting what Troll has said, missing Troll's responses to his questions and making whatever assumptinos seem most convenient to have a reason to vote for Troll. Him has now stalled in giving the analysis him wanted to give in both days him has been about until the very end of the day. We be down to under 24 hours till deadline (Troll thinks, though Troll has to look) and we still be waiting for him to get his thoughts together. If him be town he has every reason to approach the game objectively and try to get his cases in before the last minute so that we can talk about them. Both today and yesterday him has said that him be worried him be tunneling on Troll; no change in play has come of this at all.

That be scummy play from two different players and it makes up a pattern. If springlullaby was a godfather and Porkens got a false innocent then a scum team of Adel, Ectomancer and springlullaby makes perfect sense. As soon as the investigation was announced Ectomancer was calling for springlullaby to be lynched to check it. If that lynch had gone through then Adel would have had every reason not to "protect" the cop with her 1-shot doc. With the roleblocker already dead and no doc counter claims it was most likely that all protection roles for the town would be gone so Porkens could be killed that night. Trading an investigation immune godfather for what was likely the only town investigation role would be a respectable trade. On the other hand, Adel didn't go for springlullaby right away. He played the room some trying to find some other lynch that would work; anything that wouldn't be a scum lynch. None of those got traction so eventually he switched over to the springlullaby wagon and resigned himself to bussing a partner. It would have been better to get someone other than scum lynched day two but a choice between Adel and springlullaby still no was a bad one; the scum had plenty to work with in either case.

If Ectomancer turns up godfather then all of that be out the window and Troll just really dislikes BridgesAndBaloons's play but right now that be the scenario that Troll finds most likely to fit where we are in the game.

tl;dr: If Ectomancer flips goon BridgesAndBaloons probably do be a godfather.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

By Troll's calculation we now be at just under 20 hours till deadline.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Certainly none from Troll though Troll would like to see why you be making that choice.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

'cuz one of Vi & Ecto is scum. Am I repetitive, yet?

Well, not with that statement, but replace Vi with Troll and you would be. Troll was actually trying to see if you had a reason for picking Ectomancer over Troll to lynch at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Especially since troll claimed i was misrepresenting him and missing his responses, when he gives no proof of purposeful misrepresentation and I said earlier that I often don't respond to responses if I have nothing to say about them. I read them. I don't need to comment on them.

Troll's post was long enough without including that but since you bring it up, here be three of Troll's responses to misrepresentations right off the top of Troll's head:

Troll's scum tell on DrippingGoofball. Troll had been very consistent with what Troll was saying regarding that and it be noteworthy as BridgesAndBaloons accuses Troll of a misrepresentation: Post 1518

Troll's statement that BridgesAndBaloons had clearly tried to make a compelling case on Troll at the end of day one got this response from BridgesAndBaloons and then reaction from Troll: Post 1738

That Troll no had mentioned concern that Lord Gurgi was considering a springlullaby lynch when Troll hammered Adel: Post 1747

BridgesAndBaloons responded to none of those at the time. If him would like to do so now him be welcome to.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

If you disagree with the first two then we will disagree. The second be a misrepresentation of Troll's intentions through your question and the first no should have been an issue if you were reading what Troll had said.

The third one simply be you not telling the truth which Troll pointed out in post 1747.

At this point Troll thinks that it do be time to end things before the wagon on springlullaby can gain enough steam to be truly viable (

Troll be worried about how Lord Gurgi has been reacting towards it since this morning.

) By day two springlullaby should be replaced with a new player with fresh insight which will be good to hear.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Yes, Troll thinks that be most likely at this time given your play. You have been continuing to exhibit the same things that Troll has been citing as issues since today started and it has reached the point where it be enough to be more likely to be the case in Troll's evaluation that you be a godfather than town trying to win this objectively if it turns out that Ectomancer is not a special role for the mafia.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The last thing that Troll heard from BridgesAndBaloons about his intention for a vote today was as follows:

I'm thinking (temporarily) that Ecto's likeliest partner is troll. If that is correct, it makes sense to immediately vote Troll, since he's scum in both scenarios.

Troll already explained why the reasons him was giving there no were any better than an equivalent argument that would indicate that it would make sense for him to immediately vote Ectomancer but Troll no has any reason at this time to believe that BridgesAndBaloons be unlike to vote for Troll soon.

As Troll no sees that Elmo has given any reasons to prefer an Ectomancer lynch over a Troll lynch if both were viable options Troll no sees it as academic until this day be over.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Post 1805 was the final straw for Troll.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Why is a Vi, Ectomancer partnership impossible?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

No, that no be a plea for you to think about things differently. It be the evidence that your reasoning was incorrect. You be making the assumption that leads you to a vote for Troll just like you have been all game long.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

OK, why is a Troll, Vi partnership impossible then.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

We're at just over 13 hours till deadline at this time by Troll's count. At least one of BridgesAndBaloons and Elmo must be town. Troll is going to be really irritated if town doesn't make sure that we lynch before deadline and that causes our loss. The deadline should not be the issue that it has been these past two days.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

We get another day.

Elmo, if you're around tomorrow please, please take a look at the arguments that people have made. Troll thinks that you still be working with what you had gathered as of day two.

BridgesAndBaloons, you need to stop assuming that Troll be scum in your analysis. Right now you look really bad to Troll. Troll thinks that you be Ectomancer's partner but Troll no be sure of anything. If you be town please try to convince Troll otherwise and stop simply making moves that give you reasons to vote for Troll.

Vi, the idea that Adel started that we be a scum team should now be dead as it be impossible. Troll thinks that you be the most likely to be town by a fair amount. If you have the chance please share any thoughts you have in twilight.

This game be exhausting. Troll be done with it till tomorrow. It be good that we have one more day to work with but Troll no really be looking forward to it based on what Troll saw today.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

This be an interesting situation. Before doing anything else Troll would very much like to hear what Elmo has made of Troll and Vi's play the past two game days. With details.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

OK, Troll knows that you have both been about since the game opened. Troll's question to Elmo stays the same. Troll's question to Vi be similar; who of Elmo and Troll do you suspect at this time and why.

Look over both other players in isolation Troll hates Elmo's play the past couple days but the night kill be the one that favors Elmo the least of those that be left and that gives Troll pause. If either of you have questions for Troll please ask them but Troll wants to know what you both be thinking at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

The easiest end-game for Elmo-scum would have been BridgesAndBaloons, Elmo and Troll Troll thinks. The second easiest would likely have been BridgesAndBalonns, Elmo and Vi. Troll's guess be that Elmo would have killed Vi and then just had to convince BridgesAndBaloons to go with his apparent natural instinct and kill Troll. Were Elmo to kill Troll Troll sees it as something of a tossup who BridgesAndBaloons would support between the other two. This end game be the one that be the hardest for Elmo to live through from all Troll can see.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Could Vi please state the issues Vi has with Elmo? Troll has read through Vi's posts just now and has some idea what to expect so for now Troll just wants a summary.

-Zorblag

[Zorblag]

Yeah, Troll was expecting Elmo to have enough desire to win to pay attention to details during the last two or three days of the game.

Not thinking that the Vi or Ectomancer statement on his part was a slip when it clearly was given the context of the game also be most curious.

Vote: Elmo

There no really be a reason to hold off on the vote now Troll supposes.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Troll be town. Unless Vi be in an unnecessarily deceptive mood with that hammer town should just have won the game.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

It seems that Vi was in an unnecessarily deceptive move when making that hammer. Ah well, it just gave Troll 24 hours or so of false hope and that no be the worst thing ever.

Troll apologizes to the town there. This loss was clearly as much on Troll's shoulders as anyone's. Troll's play at the start was poor enough that it no ended up being recoverable from.

Troll still enjoyed the game; thanks all for playing. Troll be sorry that so many were as put off by various things as them were. Troll also hopes that Elmo will feel better soon.

To answer some questions that came up during the thread:

Elmo, Troll's poor play early in the game was for a couple reasons. Troll learned this game that Troll needs to have either a game mechanic or particularly poor play to latch onto to get past Troll's initial voting scheme which is just supposed to be a temporary holding pattern while Troll gets a feel for the game. Additionally, the more players in a game the more trouble Troll will have in getting a grip on poor play. In this game there wasn't enough stand out horrible play and there no was anything with the game mechanic Troll had to use as an outlet. It resulted in Troll's strongest case the first day just being that populartajo wasn't engaged. Troll realized that Troll was screwed by this about 2/3 of the way through day one. At that point Troll took a look at Troll's previous games and realized that the play Troll was exhibiting was most similar to what Troll had done as a godfather in Futurama Mafia and a tracker in Immunity Mafia. Troll tried then to push the similarities but Troll probably pushed too hard; in any case, looking at the scum quick topic that no came into consideration at all.

Troll also knew that it was a terrible thing as soon as Mirth posted Troll's nomination for a scummy for individual scum play. Nothing be worse for Troll's play than having a reputation of playing scum well. It no even be a case where Troll should have gotten the nomination. Troll replaced into a perfect situation for scum and no screwed it up too badly. Troll asked Mirth to change it to a nomination for best replacement or maybe best new player as neither of those would have this exact effect but Mirth declined. As a side note, if any reading this end up judging the scummies, do remember that Troll's nomination be particularly weak and the award should go to someone else.

Vi: Troll teaches math at the community college level. Troll understands what you be saying about the early voting pattern in the QT notes but this game was a bit of an abberation. Normally Troll gets past that more quickly and it be most unusual for it to end up being the distraction that it was this game. Troll just played it poorly. As Troll said to Elmo it's supposed to be a way to get past the very start of the game before Troll finds something worth working with but Troll failed to do that this time through.

Adel: Troll no be the alt of anyone. Troll knows neither Xylthixlm or Shaft.ed in real life though Troll should see if Shaft.ed be interested in meeting before him leaves the Seattle area for his new job. Troll no knows how serious that comment you made was but Troll thought Troll would clear it up.

Troll had been hoping for a longer final day. Like Troll said, the kill of BridgesAndBaloons made no sense at all for Elmo to make but when Elmo voted Troll it became a matter of letting Vi not hammer if him was town and confirming Troll's suspicions or voting for Elmo and letting town Vi make his own choice or give scum Vi a way to win without lynching Troll. The choices were essentially equivalent from the perspective of winning the game and Troll had spent so much of the game in danger of getting lynched that Troll was simply used to trying to avoid that with Troll's actions at by the end.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Ah, and Vi, Troll no had you nailed there at all with the observations about the night 4 kill. It was a reason for Troll to be suspicious of Vi and Troll was throwing it out there so that Elmo would have a reason to think that Troll would be considering a Vi scum option despite what Troll had said earlier but in fact that night kill was the only reasonable one for Troll to have made. Troll expected Vi and Elmo both to use that against Troll. Vi could also have killed Elmo during the night and Elmo could have killed Vi (or either could have killed Troll) but Troll's night kill would largely have been forced given BridgesAndBaloons's play.

If Vi had voted pre-emptively for Elmo it would have looked fairly bad to Troll. Troll needed to see Elmo start engaging in the game not to vote for him. Troll did like most of his play in day two a fair amount (him agreed with Troll about many things for very believable reasons through that stretch) and when Troll read through both Elmo and Vi in isolation Troll might have liked what Elmo said a bit more but the apathy towards the game from was a huge issue for Troll. It could be that Elmo was sick, it could be that him just disliked Troll's early play to make up his mind early, it could be that him wasn't swayed but anything happening later in the game but for whatever reason Elmo struck Troll as disengaged. Troll sees that more often in scum and Vi was participating.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Ah, and also also, gratz to the scum team! Well done!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Er, yeah, sorry. That came off as more of a complaint than Troll meant it to be. Troll does recognize that mods put some time into writing the ends of games. Troll no will attempt to deceive with Troll's hammer to end a game and Troll will reveal what Troll knows about how the game ended but Troll no really minds if others make different choices. It gets cleared up by the mod before too long and their story still be as compelling to most that will end up reading it anyhow.

As for the TA thing, Troll very much enjoyed Troll's time as a TA in the math department at the University of Wisconsin, Madison. There were plenty of characters of all sorts there so Troll no would worry about ruining anything nor count on making everything that wasn't perfect before sublime. Troll's advice would be to get to know the other TAs well. Hang out with them. Watch political debates with them (whether or not you agree about politics.) Take road trips with them. Do your research with them. There be great sources of good people to be found in math TAs, many of whom no be social by nature. And when you be done, write a screenplay about the experience embellishing all the unimportant details and share it with everyone.

Troll hopes you will enjoy the whole thing as much as Troll did. It was one of the better times in Troll's life.

[Zorblag]

Maybe I'm being dumb, but B&B is a mandatory kill because Porkens claimed an innocent on him and we just lynched Ecto as GF. I'm missing something?

Scum never have to lynch confirmed innocents. If a confirmed innocent will vote for another townie in endgame then them be gold for scum. BridgesAndBaloons was much more likely to vote for Troll than either Elmo or Vi so him would have been great to keep around in endgame even though Troll no could have voted for him. Scum only need to get one townie voting the wrong way in LyLo.

Another thought about this game be that a number of players no will be playing in other games anytime soon.

Adel, Troll hopes that your time away from the internet be productive. Troll seems to be less offended by your play than many and would enjoy playing in games with you when you get back. Troll thanks you for your part in making this game happen.

DrippingGoofball, Troll be most thankful that you invited Troll to join this game as Troll did enjoy it. Hopefully you still be about and will get a chance to read this. Even though Troll did incorrectly think you were scum Troll really was most pleased to have you in the game. You be one that Troll does like playing with for your personality, not one that Troll would avoid. Troll hopes that you enjoy whatever you be pursuing now that you be gone from here and if you choose to return Troll for one will be happy.

Ectomancer, Troll be pleased to have gotten a chance to play with you. It sounds like you be on top of your situation and, barring flare ups, know what you be doing. You did play well and although Troll was suspicious of you Troll no was sure you were scum until day four when you put all your eggs in the Troll-scum basket. It seems that your plan was to let Troll know anyhow and play for the final day. Thank you for your part in setting the whole game up.

And, of course, thanks to caf19. Troll no thinks that you be leaving but thanks much for the modding! It was fine work and Troll would happily play in another game of yours in the future.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh