Open 143: Jungle Republic (Game Over!) before 787

[AA23]

/confirm

Where's a good place to get avatar's that fit with this sites standards>

[AA23]

got it.

[AA23]

There are players that prefer to dive right into talking about the set up and what it means to townies, how town should conduct themselves in certain situations, etc - -

On the other hand, in the random voting stage, you can learn about other people based on their patterns (example, someone random voting another player and putting them at a suspicious L- stage)

It really rests with player preferences, I suppose. If you don't want to random vote, don't - and if you want to rather, say something productive or worth while, there's no need for permission.

To answer your question.

[AA23]

I think I made my position pretty clear in my post where I answered and chose not to put a vote down, guys lol - she's staying that way. Kind of glad someone brought it up actually, I recently played with others who had the same style and wanted to try it.

@Gorckat - - If you re-read my response, can you please explain how me answering a question exactly how it was asked is buddying up? I was asked about what my opinion on the matter was - my answer gave an opinion on both sides, and my choice was in the post itself (no vote).

@Dust - - That being said, why so quick to turn on someone that answered a question for you? Should we expect this lose/lose sentiment with everything you present to us? lol

@Everyone - - Why is meta being brought up so soon on Zwet and Emp? It's only fair to let each game be it's own, and they'll dig their own holes all by themselves (besides, as I understand it, Zwet has been trying to spruce up his gameplay, and successfully at that)

[AA23]

oooo - and Dust - - in your opening questions - - why start off with "is this scummy?" and hop right into asking us about interesting meta on other players? I was sitting there thinking Dejkha started it, twas you sir - - why the meta discussion so soon, are you trying to point us in a different direction off the bat?

[AA23]

I'm sorry? Am I missing something?

[AA23]

That said, I think that Empking definitely has some problems with his play style, but nothing to warrant persecution on the level that Dej has suggested.

Percy, what are your thoughts on the game? Acemarksman, if you could answer as well, it'd be appreciated.

@Dust - Emp suggested you were buddying up to Dej and you immediately in post 52 distanced yourself - I'm having trouble seeing it as a natural choice over a tactic

Second part of the above quote. This isn't a get well seminar, and while I can understand wanting everyone to participate, this is day one and less than five pages - - people don't need to be coaxed. Why not just share your own opinion? It seems like you're trying to establish yourself as some sort of town leader in this sense by forcing a directorial approach to your scum hunting. It's too early for that.

If it's your style and your'e just getting excited, it's all good, I would jsut say you're diggin and should ease up - - otherwise, I reagard your seemingly manufactured distancing of Dej, and your attempt to direct the town as scummy.

For instance - in addition to uneccessarily coaxing people to post (still kind of pushy, man...) - - you stated your reasons for starting a discussion of meta.....

Can we get some other relevant, non-biased information on this game? I can't see this going anywhere...

Meta, good or bad, is biased - - is it not now hypocritical for you to have tried to lead the town into conversations you now "grr" to?

FoS - Dust

-----------------------------------------------------------------

[AA23]

EBWOP - - I don't write slang like "diggin" - - it's the keyboard....and there's a few typos.

[AA23]

Prompting or pushing - - both are too early

You say you need help and nobody is stepping up to the plate - - I'm saying it's too early, and you've attempted to make said plate on your own - - there's a distinct difference. People fall into leadership roles at times, it's never attempted, the way you're suggesting.

Though, you admit you're stepping up to the plate as you say - - which is trying to be the town leader - - hence I find it a bit scummy. As scum, one might try to do what you're doing in an attempt to build your own immunity.
--------------
on the point of Dej - you suggest a poor informed decision on him because you hadn't read into the meta's yet - - both your "buddying" (so to speak) and distancing were based on generic meta, and his signature, niether of which have anything to do with what you're saying inspired your distancing.
--------------
How did you not see a brick wall? Meta discussion brings nothing but. If the meta is negative, you get this situation you "grr" to - - if the meta is positive, you can call them out on buddying or favortism - - yet another attempt to cover bases.

How do I know you could play both sides of the fence? You did so with your emp position, your dej position, you position on discussing meta, and your response to me answering your question on RVS - -

You're trying to manufacture leadership, but fall into becoming a follower - - that's scummy.

You ask a question - I answer it - someone votes me for my answer - you join in and express suspicion toward me

You form an opinion on Emp and follow Dej - - Emp points it out - - you back away

You make a meta conversation - - and now you hypocritically back away from it for the very reasons you should have known better for.

You're a follower stepping up to (as you put it) a leadership plate. That plate is for leaders, and you're seeming like scum.

Vote:Dust

[AA23]

And I agree with Dej - - -

Zwet, conversation was not killed

[AA23]

so you state that you don't like leading, but had admitted you stepped up to the plate to do so, and in post 70 say you'll step down from trying to be a leader when things are rolling - - I don't think there is misrep there - - can you at least clarify further?
--------------------
You've once again wavered on a position and have played both sides of the fence. Talking meta, will innevitably bring out favortism, or bias of any sort - - you state you have an issue with this - thus, you contradict yoruself and your whole reason for bringing it up!!! -

Then you state that it wasn't meant to be a scum hunting/lynching convo - - if that's the case, and it's meant to be a crapshoot conversation, why be against the RVS? Are you not also contradicting yourself there, too?
----------------------
And you make the statement that you want to start conversation independently, but that's not the case when you seem to hold off on contributing in exchange for presenting conflicting and hypocritical ideals on your part, and ask otehr people to participate - - that's the exact opposit of being independent so yes, pushing and prompting is early and unecessary, especially if you're trying to be independent.
--------------------

You say you don't want to be a leader and don't intend to / / / yet admit you're trying to take the role and will "Fall back to a less leaderly role" as you put it

You don't like RVS for the very reasons you seem to not like meta talk - - why exchange the two and turn your back on it when it goes south?

---------
To clarify - don't worry about stepping down from a "leaderly role" - - you're not there.

Please make a STATEMENT - - I am more than happy to take my vote off of you if you clarify and explain, I assure you that.

To calrify and explain - - do you mind actually making a decision on something? You seem to be hypocritically flip flopping in leadership roles, positions on meta talk etc.

[AA23]

Dej - I'm not calling him out on buddying at all - - - It was his attempt to distance himself at a whim simply upon SUSPICION of buddying up.

I'm primarily picky about him being hypocritical, and a people pleaser.

Emp calls him out on possibly buddying, he proactivly distances

He starts meta talk to avoid pointless RVS - - yet turns his back on the very conversation he starts

He asks a straight forward question, I answer it, and he only finds suspicion in me when someone votes me? Pretty thin.

And his idea of leadership roles and flip flopping on whether or not he has one is very sketchy - - saying he isn't, admitting he is, saying he doesn't intend to, admitting he intends to step down when the time is right - - - all the while, he isn't even up successfully

I find it tres sketchy

[AA23]

Zwet - He might have already mentioned it, but I think he doesn't have any completed games at this time.

Gorckat - The phrase telling Dust that he could be "Digging his hole" was when I was expressing to him that I found several of his actions scummy and wanted him to explain.

If it turned out that it was bad luck at him trying a certain gameplay and not being scum, it would indeed be digging a hole, no? - - I'm still open to hear good reasons for the hypocrisy, flip flopping, people pleasing, and immunity hunting

[AA23]

@Dust

It sounds like we're all after clarification from you.

My case is:

1.Hypocrisy
2. Flip Floppery (that's hard to be mad at - it sounds funny when spoken)
3.Trying to manufacture immunity
4. People pleasing (through distancing and the flip floppery...still a great phrase)
5. Misdirection (we're now not only caught up with meta, but meta in the direction of sites we cannot access)
-----------------------------------
Now there's 5 votes on you so I'm not sure if everyone agrees with my case, or has something to say on their own - - this means

You need to clear up the above - and if the above is cleared, you need to determine if scum is on the wagon via lurking and following without presenting an actual case.

So everyone with a vote on Dust - What are your thoughts on this wagon?

Dust - please clarify - I myself have always appreciated a chance to explain, so I'll extend you the same courtesy

[AA23]

With the statements of "I don't see the dust case" which I've seen twice, I would like for some elaboration as there are 4 other people that seem to disagree.

So that I can refine my case, or (if it need be) withdraw it, I'll need more than fence sitting statements considering the two people that made them were inactive/tied up in negative meta talk.

[AA23]

The case points are in post 89 - - the details of each are in the previous posting assuming you hae taken the time to read them - - please let me know what needs clarification, or what is able to be swiped within reason

[AA23]

hey now...

hey now
don't dream its over
Hey now, hey now
When the world comes in
They come, they come
To build a wall between us
We know they wont win...

Vote Count

Dust 5 - AshMC1984, Empking, AceMarksman, zwetschenwasser, AA23
zwetschenwasser 2 - Khamisa, dejkha
AA23 1 - Gorckat
Hewitt 1 - Percy
Ash 1 - Mixologist

Note: with 12 alive it is 7 to lynch,
therefore Dust is -2

[AA23]

Alright,

no random voting stage.

It's stupid, pointless, and stifles proper discussion.

Instead, I'll direct a few questions towards the Town at large? Only Mafia need not answer. ; P

Do you think it's scummy to say that an RVS shouldn't be conducted? What would you prefer as an alternative? Do any of you have interesting meta on other players?

The above is his statement on how he feels about RVS, followed by an attempt to conduct the town and organize etc by prompting us - - this is the very first post of day 1 - -
(and is his comment about mafia need not answer a little threat to call us scum for not seeing his way?)

RVS and meta, in my experience, are two things most players can bring an opinion on to the table, and thus, we open up more opportunities.

Grr...

Can we get some other

relevant, non-biased information on this game? I can't see this going anywhere...

Meta is biased and he is now hating on the very thing he exchanged for RVS - which he said was the same thing - - irrelevent and something he couldn't see going anywhere

Hypocrite

because biases from previous games are overwhelming the actual validity of the meta arguments they offer. The metas they had against each other were perfectly relevant to start, but then they began using them as their own little personal argument, which wasn't even rooted in this game

More hypocrisy. How can meta not be biased in either positive or negative ways? How can the meta be applied to this game when it's the first thing you brought up? The first post on is where he kicked this off...

He also coaxed other players in less than 5 pages to start posting - - more attempts to conduct the town an in turn

'Pushing' wasn't so much the verb behind that action as 'Prompting'.

Further admits to trying to conduct the town and build an immunity as a seemingly protown leader (self proclaimed no less) - - these things happen naturally and with time, not off the bat from post one. Scummy.

leading the town is not something I normally enjoy doing. If other people stepped up to the plate and started striving towards discussion, I wouldn't butt heads with them because they were doing so.

Admits to trying for the leadership role - - denis it - - admits he'll step down from what he thinks is his leadership - - doesn't see it as leadership - -

Manufacture Immunity

----------------------------------

I answered Dust's question. I then chose not to vote or go with the RVS.

Gorckat voted me, and Dust opportunistically turned on me with no rational thoughts of his own

@AA23- I agree with Gorckat. Take a position on the issue.

FoS: AA and Mixo

Was I truly suspicious? Read my post, the one I got a vote and Dust's FoS for - - it's mental

Had someone random voted at the end of the post I made, you all would have taken that as an answer to whether they would participate in RVS - - I chose not to - that's not complicated...or suspicious - - if anything, the most you could get is a question out of it, no?

I think he was:

People Pleasing

to blend in more. He does so furhter.

You're highly buddying up to Dej because there's no way in hell that was a compelling argument.

Emp tells Dust he's buddying to Dej - - Dust

immediately

distances. Now I don't think he was buddying, but I do indeed think he distanced.

It's like being a speed trap cop and seeing someone go too slow (and speeding is buddying) - - I'm suspicious of the too slow driver - Dust.

On the other hand, other than Dej's almost unhealthy obsession with lynching you..[...]

[...]That said, I think that Empking definitely has some problems with his play style, but nothing to warrant persecution on the level that Dej has suggested.

He immediately sings a different tune about Dej, and then makes nice with Emp, the guy shaking a fist at him - - to once again please and make nice --

I'd like to see if he flops again if Emp is on the stand...Probably change his opinions as easily in that post as he did this one.

Meta, as you say, breeds meta discussion. It shouldn't be bringing about lynch discussion.

Discussing meta comparatively suggests to us whether someone is town or scum - how is it distant from lynching process/scum hunting? - - and if you WANTED it to be different from lynch talk/scum hunting, isn't that just as off topic and useless as RVS? Hypocrisy...

And why is it too early for prompting? I mean, really, what harm does it do the town?

What does harm for the town is scum gaining immunity by feining such love and pro-town statements out of nowhere - - when have I or anyone told you a statement or idea is hurting the town specifically? It seems like you're throwing in "I love town" statements all on your own so they can be read and we can subliminally think "aw, he can't be scum"
------------

His flip flops on issues, people pleasing, hypocrisy, and scummy manufacturing of pro town leadership that he admits to and denies having is scummy to me.
-------------------------------

To clarify as asked. I find his whole game play to bee far too loose and fake. - - he started the game with hypocrisy and trying to get opinions from other people, and he hasn't truly brought forth his OWN opinions unless they were inspired by other people challenging him or buddying (Gorckat voting me, Emp accusing Dust of buddying) - - he's brought nothing to the table except his hatred for RVS (which he considers as useless as meta talk...kind of redundant) - - Why trust a guy that advocates conversation and debates, but doesn't partake in them? Only sits on the sidelines and tries to seem like the town leader/conductor?

Scum.

[AA23]

Okay - -


Dej and others - -

I agree 100% that the case is minor - - don't get me wrong, I feel they are all valid points, and they could indeed luck out to a villan, but minor is right. Dust is a victim of trying to be the strongest poster and we at present have the least info on everyone else.

My vote stays - - He was at L-1 which means scum is very much part of the wagon, otherwise we could have had a quickhammer (in the form of someone praising the case like percy did and dropping a vote)

Percy, don't flip, but I think scum is on the chopping block, and the L-1 vote (that no longer exists) - - It's a thought I have percy, I'm sure it won't last, so don't get ansy lol

So that I understand this game correctly, both scum and werewolves would want to quickhammer and nightkill, and with a wagon at 6, we had 3 hop off immediately when Dust called seer and three backed off.

Possibility

Person# - Doing - Whom

1 - Dust - the voted - seer

2 - Zwet - Voting - Scum/Werewolf

3 - Percy - Voting - Scum/Werewolf

4 - Emp - Voting - Scum/Werewolf

If the claim is true on Dust's part, I have started a wagone that villans jumped on, and all jumped off together - why?

Counterclaim. Try to inspire the opposing villan (scum/werewolf) to do so - - that way, out of the claimer and counterclaimer, he and his partner get a mislynch, and no who to kill in the night

This could support that Dust is the seer
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now there are two people other than myself on said wagon, they could be the villan counterparts, or maybe townies for the alternative below

Possibility

Person# - Doing - Whom

1 - Dust - Scum/Werewolf

2 -

3 -

4 -

Same as above - a wagon with a very good chance of a pair of villans on board (seeing as tehre was no quick lynch, I would reckon Dust could still be villan). They also all pull off for the same reason - that juicy claim which can guaruntee them a valuable nightkill, and more than potential mislynch if a counterclaim comes up.

Because a counterclaim is so important, and the game has 4 villans, I'm going to keep my vote on Dust because there was no quicklynch and he could still be villan - - but I consider

ZWET to be an excellent alternative and will hop ship to him if it proves stronger ebfore I refine anything with Dust - - they are two primaries for me

Those are my thoughts. This wagon has helped lure more potential villans than kill off one that could be innocent. The case is thin - - it's good enough to be a case, but thin. I think the actions of other people with this case is equally valuable.

Thoughts?

[AA23]

Wow I read cluttery... that was confusing

Summary -

4 villans, 3 people jumped ship when a claim came - - I think the 4th villan is Dust - - but whether he is innocent or not, they hopped so there would be time for a counterclaim

So that they can have a valuable kill AND a mislynch.

Yea - that should be more clear

[AA23]

I'm saying 4 because it's how the number would work in my head for those two scenarios - - two pairs

If we're consider that there was a no lynch because ALL the scum were on the board, we could then assume the three people that pulled off are the three scum, waiting to lynch Dust the seer (and try to mislynch the counterclaim) - - or they are three scum waiting to lynch the werewolf Dust but want to wait to know who the true seer is if there's a counter claim.

So no - clearly not a slip, it's a game of numbers - - if anything, you've suggested a third possibility - It's as thin as the others, but at least we're all thinking.

Out of the three people, we had Percy, who was impressed and praised the case on Dust, maintains the points are valid, and pulls off (to keep him from L-1? But why? Two already pulled off...)

The two to pull off were Zwet and Emp.

Zwet, who pulled off and asked for a counterclaim - - this is 100% a villan tool, and only benefits them. No doubt about it.

**Emp defended why his vote was there and furhtermore withdrew it and insisted a counterclaim shouldn't happen - - I'm confused on that one and could use more input from other people.

--------------------
Which of the now three possibilities is sound? If there are more, I could use the food for thought as I've hit a wall

[AA23]

Wow I read cluttery... that was confusing

Summary -

4 villans, 3 people jumped ship when a claim came - - I think the 4th villan is Dust - - but whether he is innocent or not, they hopped so there would be time for a counterclaim

So that they can have a valuable kill AND a mislynch.

Yea - that should be more clear

So you're saying that we said that he shouldn't be counterclaimed, why?

In order to get a counterclaim?

No, I'm saying that villans could have pulled off the wagon to buy time. A claim is out - - they now have a potentially solid night kill. If they coax a counterclaim, they can score a decent mislynch in addition to that - - I'm saying villans are trying to up their number of casualties right now instead of rushing.

[AA23]

Oh wow - - No, Emp, I see what you mean - I rushed through my reading and hadn't seen Percy go against the counter.

I suppose that would suggest

Zwet
Me
the two other ppl who voted and haven't pulled off

are prime suspects.

Zwet is pushing for a counter which is a villan tool at this time

The two other voters haven't clarified why they are voting

And the best I can do is hope my expression of the case and why I voted/am keeping it there are good enough to keep my head out of a rope!

[AA23]

I'm expressing that it's unhelpful to town and extremely hepful in villans securig a mislynch and a igificant nightkill

-- I don't mean this rhetoriclly, but how would it help us?

[AA23]

Villains it is.

Can you explain how the counterclaim would have helped the town?

[AA23]

my keyboard fucks up my g's, i's, and s's

[AA23]

In counterclaiming, we're giving the enemy 100% knowledge of who they should nightkill, in not doing so, we are still taking our chances with the lynch on the suspect who claims (and the reactions of villains in the heat of a trial).

I'd rather call a bluff than show the enemy our cards

[AA23]

It's okay - - In the event of a counterclaim, there is always the question of countering.

I think I'd like to hear from Ace and Ash.

They're the only ones on the wagon with me and they haven't presented a case, explained their vote, or contributed in a bit.

FoS: Ace & Ash

[AA23]

EBWOP* In the event of a CLAIM

[AA23]

No fun for me wihout the risk

I think I trust the reasons at this point for the first few vote withdrawls -

I think Ace and Ash could use some attention - I'd still like them to answer for their actions.

There was no quickhammer, villains were on that wagon whether the one being voted for is one or not - -

[AA23]

Ace, no need to get frustrated or worked up - - I'm in no rush - - Good luck on your exams -

For when you get back - just want you and Ash to explain your actions in voting, keeping votes, (pulling off), and your opinion on the circumstances.

I've exhausted my own and am chilling till you two and others get back

[AA23]

I agree that "tricky" is a way to put it.

The case I made on Dust was enough to vote him, but not condemn him - - it was agreeably risky, but good enough to see the responses of people placing him at L-1 and then reacting to the claim.

A main reason he remains safe is the absence of a counter claim, and it's an absence we prefer which makes it all the more harder to trust his initial claim - -

A way to find out the truth would be gambling and lynching him, but that would be wildly redundant if the claim holds true, so I almost feel like that's out.

Unvote: Dust

---------------------
Which directs my attention in the direction to the wagon. Dust was at L-1 and remained alive.

L-1 status, in a game with 5 villains and 7 to lynch with no hammer/quicklynch makes me curious as to who was on that wagon.

We had 6 counting myself.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. If Dust is indeed seer, was it 3 mafia, to werewolves and a towny?

2. If Dust were mafia, could the wagon have been all towny and both wolves (hence no quickhammer as mafia would not kill their own?

3. Why would Dust specifically claim seer? In a scenario where there is one power role, would it not be more responsible to claim towny/not scum? That way, you're not really lying, nor are you setting yourself up for a nightkill anyhow and thus defeating the purpose - - I'm actually asking, I'm not familiar with the ethics behind claiming

[AA23]

Khamisa-

What would I be covering up? I stated how many villains I felt were part of two scenarios that involved 5 people including myself - - Mixologist thought I was stating there were 4 villains in the whole town, and misunderstood I was referring to the scenario's I posted.

Are you only saying four because you yourself are a scum AA? Slip?

Clearly there are five villains in this game as per post, oh I don't know, 1.

The scenario was about 5 voters - - I said 4 were villans - - technically the slip would be me suggesting I'm town.

I think you should be more careful in your re read.

You not only misunderstood what you tried to pin on me - - you misunderstood what you tried to pin on Zwet.

He said he felt special because of what was posted just before - - The Mod had accidetally put him in the vote count twice.

------------
Now do you mind conducting a proper re-read and coming back with something we can use?

Vote Count

zwetschenwasser 4 - Khamisa, dejkha, Percy, AshMC1984
AA23 1 - Gorckat
Ash 1 - Mixologist

[AA23]

and not to poke at you too much, but the post Im referring to, where you seemed to miss in the re-read why Zwet felt special and later twisted into him feeling special for something scummy?

It was your post....

Mod: There are two zwetschenwassers in the vote count.

I'm all over it

yeah...

[AA23]

No worries - -

Let's just keep broad thinking - - Lets have some more theories at least - sound ones, everyone!

[AA23]

2. If Dust were mafia, could the wagon have been all towny and both wolves (hence no quickhammer as mafia would not kill their own?

Dust isn't mafia. Why would he purposefully out himself as the towns only power role knowing that he would be NK'ed that night.

A way to find out the truth would be gambling and lynching him, but that would be wildly redundant if the claim holds true, so I almost feel like that's out.

Why mention it then? Dust is

not

an option to lynch

1. My thought on the Dust being mafia, both wolves on the wagon, and no mafia quicklynching their own is still valid - - the reason he would (as mafia) out himself as seer isn't to set himself up for a nightkill - - it's actually a genius move to allow a mislynch AND double your chances of NKing the real seer - - think about it - - why go down as scum on a day 1 lynch when you can claim "seer" and have the real one CC (NK in the bag) and convince us to go and mislynch someone from the wagon (mafia then get two excellent deaths on their hands)

It's actually a very sound theory.

2. The reason I mentioned the redundant statement was so that it would be understood why I was taking my vote off. Right after the part you quoted. Easily seen. If read further ahead. Carefully. So not to misunderstand quotes. Again. And again.

------------------

I think my theory is sound and worth investigating.

Dust being scum - - calling seer to coax the real one out (juicy NK) and throw a lynch from him to a mislynch on a towny from the wagon.

He lived because both werewolves were on the wagon and no scum wanted to lynch their own - hence no quicklynch hammer.

Sounds pretty tight to me so far.

[AA23]

Mixologist, I'm not saying there's a counterclaim on the way - I'm paraphrasing a possible thought process that the scum would have under pressure and leading up to why they WOULD claim seer, what they would hope for**

Mix/Dej - - I know what seer means to us, but when you're asked to claim, you're at L-1, and you're a villain - are you honestly going to tell me there's a better thing to claim to stay alive?

You said it yourself, claiming town, vanilla, not scum - it's not enough. Why is it so crazy Mafia would choose to claim seer in a time of need?

And furthermore, it wouldn't matter - - the theory is still sound - - whether the intention is there or not, Dust could be mafia and both wolves on the wagon - which would explain why no mafia has quicklynched their own and the hammer didn't drop.

The above - please comment.

The theory is still sound for those two points. And for a third point - Seer is still a mafia target whether early in the game or late - just another number to kill off.

[AA23]

Discussing it is how I put it to work - otherwise we risk hunting lynches instead of scum which happens too often on this site.

A responsible course of action is to hear everyone else out and know where they stand.

There will be two kinds of people -

The first group will have an idea or thought to bring to the table on what to do and why (who to lynch, evidence, questions) - their mini objectives like those will inform us of their superobjectives and help us make a calculated decision.

The second group will be tagging along, asking other people to pipe up

without

giving their own opinions, thoughts, and answers - - they will also inform us.

But to keep solid decision making up to three or four larger/more frequent posters is rushy and risks a mislynch.

In three days people will be more relaxed from exams and have time to get back to us. I've shared my thoughts, am open minded to many other possibilities, and await other input

[AA23]

So you're of the second group then?

I'm going to be patient with you because I've had my own slip ups when developing skill in this game - - but for the last time, read carefully - - I even took the time to put italics on a word in the very category you're trying to put me under.

I've got no eggs in the basket on this one, if I've had a thought, I've proposed it - - After I made a choice to unvote, gave reasons, and exhausted several speculations, you seem to think that I haven't shared ideas?

Mixer - I'm expressing that we need to hear from everyone else and that they will either offer something new, take action and back it up, or be followers - - all of which will inform us.

[AA23]

@Dej - Given the connecting of pairs I can understand where you see Dust as wolf

[AA23]

I am not harping on your about not sharing ideas. Where did I say that? In post 168 I asked you:

Who on the wagon do you think is Wolves and to that extent who off the wagon do you think is Mafia?

which you still haven't answered. That is what I am harping on you about. After Dust claimed seer you FOS'ed Ash and Ace for not contributing enough and poked at zwet a little. Please answer.

Re-read what I felt the standards were for the second section, and you'll note that no, I wouldn't belong in that category.

And I can't say who I think is who because it would be hunting lynches and not scum - - and it would be that way because I don't know where they stand on anything - - and I don't know where they stand on anything because they haven't posted yet.

See what I mean?

Love the condescending tone there. Why do you assume that I am new to this game?

Actually I'm annoyed with you seeing as you've made yourself look like a fool on at least three accounts of not properly reading - - I can assure you I'm genuine in the post you're thinking is condescending and want to indeed be patient with you - - don't get proud and push it - - there's a fine line between an inexperienced player who can't read posts well enough before posting multiple times and a scum that's trying to put a case together out of anything they can get their hands on - - I assure you I'm being fair to you on this.

So for the last time - just read the posts carefully, and I indeed want to be patient and kind with you - it's not sarcasm.

Again, it's been all "If" and theory. While that is good to talk about, we also need to talk about the actual people on the bandwagon.

Mixer - I'm expressing that we need to hear from everyone else and that they will either offer something new, take action and back it up, or be followers - - all of which will inform us.

There is no harm in discussing it with people who are active though.

You're suggesting power and immunity should be given to those that are most active.

I'm being fair and calculated. We can't build cases around people we're not talking to. We need the cases to develop through interrogation and discussion with them.

Patience.

[AA23]

That's in the event of someone claiming - you're right emp.

However, you coaxed the person in question to claim, and THEN gave the "don't cc" note.

How do we know Dust would have claimed had you not said it? It would have been more scummy otherwise, but now he can say he did it as per request of the town.

So what could have been:

Scum on trial claims on their own - - we're in a bad situation with the calim and warn the real perosn not to cc

has become (from you):

a seeming viallain buddy tells their partner to claim (to keep them alive) and then in the same post, after putting us in the bad position of a claim in the air, telling the real person not to CC (if they exist)

It becomes less of a town tactic to protect ourselves (saying no cc) and in your case, becomes seemingly "a villain setting the stage"

[AA23]

Clarify your statement -

I'm telling you letting scum claim on their own is more valuable than having their hand held by a scumbuddy (hypothetically).

You seemingly instructed Dust, and then covered his ass with the no cc request - - all in one post - -

requesting no cc is a way to get out of the mud (someone claiming - they do it, we decide then)

You put us in the mud in the very same post.

If you can't justify that action, I will absolutely vote you and see you hang, Emp. It is a genuinely scummy act that cannot be mistaken for a towny move.

Unless you can enlighten me.

Enlighten me.

[AA23]

Telling someone to claim is putting us in the mud, it wasn't necessary

A request for a no cc is a way out of said mud.

At different times, both of these things, under the right circumstances are pro town.

In a single post, you put us in the mud and then made a no cc request - - that's redundant for the town and only benefitial to the person on trial. Why set it up if you were going to knock it down in the same sentence?

You're badically saying "Dust, get some immunity - - and anyone that can question it should let him have it"
------------------

In ANY circumstance when it's pro town to ask someone to claim, we are 100% to have a CC - - if not, then what we're doing is throwing the suspected scum a lifeline. Do you understand?

It looks like you threw him a lifeline.

Last chance to explain it

[AA23]

I apologize for that statement Emp - it was thoughtless of me and I mean that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification:

Asking someone to claim is pro-town when we do so in a willingness to have someone CC. - - The person claims, no CC, he/she must be who they say they are.

Requesting no CC is what we do in a circumstance when someone claims on their own, and we worry they're trying to lure the true identity out, or mislynch the CC.

You put these two things together in the same damn message - - they cancel eachother out and niether are helpful to town in our circumstance.

They then become only useful to scum.

Vote: Emp

FoS: Dust

**Let it be noted that Dust also, early in the game made buddy like statements to Emp to the effect of securing him safety from his Emp meta.

Perhaps that's even WHY Dust brought it up to begin with? You find out your partner has a target sign on their back because of their meta and try to clear it early...

[AA23]

Your mistake was in post 106.

[AA23]

Dust, for me, you've written much once again and said less.

The case on Emp isn't a matter of whether asking someone to claim is scummy,

it isn't a question of requesting a CC to not come forth as being scummy.

It's saying that putting them in the same sentence is 100% redundant and completely villan serving.

You say you were to claim anyhow, and you're defending a case against Emp - - but all of this means nothing to people who understand the logic of the case and therein see you as the scumbuddy defending him.

And you misunderstood Dej's comment, Dust - - He was trying to put a stop to an Emphole - there's no beef with Mix.

--------------------------------
Simply put. Again.

To call for a claim - - Is when we want the person being lynched to claim their identity and see if it is challenged (calling for a claim

only works if we expect a CC

) - - if the CC comes, we work from there, if not, the person is telling the truth and lives.

Why call for a claim and in the same message ask not to have it countered? The very statement is "Dust, protect yourself - Everyone else, let him!"

Requesting no counter claim - is when we do NOT ask for a claim, and we suspect the scum is trying to lure out a target for a NK.

Emp took two pro town actions, and put them together in one sentence thus cancelling them out and turning it not into a towny tactic, but a scum communication.

This isn't complicated.
-----------------------------------------------

And I haven't questioned anyone else because opinions on the matter of counter claiming are variables with everyone else after the fact. - - the real matter at hand is about the responsibility of the person that called for it, that initiated it - Emp
---------------------------------------------

Dej - what are your own thoughts on the case and how do you then feel about the Zwet vote?

[AA23]

Has he done anything else irregular or scummy?

Do we have some sort of a "three strike, you're out rule" - or can we go off of an actual scumtell based case?

[AA23]

**to start - - my apologies to Mix - - he and Khamisa both misread me in posting close together and I tied them into one when I made the patience comment**
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Dust - - My honst opinion is that telling the truth or not, you're dead by tomorrow and no longer a powerful role to the town.

If we don't lynch you, we have to risk lynch hunting which is irresponsible, often accidental, and a risk to the town - - we could lose three innocents by tomorrow morning.

If we do lynch you - - we can base our cases on the other players off of that. Knowing if you were innoent all along or one of the bad guys helps us better understand the interactions everyone was having with you.
---------------------------------
The risk in both....

If we don't lynch you, no matter who we do lynch today, we lose two people in the night, and one of them might not be you. Suppose a villain decides not to kill you in the night, thus hurting your credibility and putting doubt into who you really are thus leading us to an innevitable mislynch.

Lynching you is clearing you - thus clearing anyone that has been attached to you.

You had what looked like scum communication from Emp

You were at L-1 and nobody quicklynched (villains from your team choosing not to off their own?)

I confess that I'm very torn.

If we don't lynch you - - I'm looking at Emp right now, it seems fitting (making you scum)

If we do lynch you - we lose three townies by tomorrow morning if you're innocent, and no matter your innocence or guilt, we get an idea of who could be who based on their position on you the previous day

If we no lynch - we lose two in the night, you being likely one of them - - that's the lowest body counts, and we clear your name/reveal your identity thus giving us a better kick start to who is who (based, once again, on how everyone has responded to you)

Those are my feelings, and unfortunately they're worth nothing until I hear from every single person.

I'm sticking to my vote - the case holds water.

[AA23]

this is the very first game I've played with enemies that aren't just scum - -

since we have scum and werewolves, do we not lose two a night?

[AA23]

Do you have reason to believe that a town with 5 villains not taking advantage of a 7 to lynch wagon isn't suspicious?

I'm fixated on the fact that villains had to have already been on it and there wasn't enough to throw the hammer.


**side note - - isn't it illogical to have mafia that can't nk? What threat are they with a common enemy to town? Did someone just make this type of game up?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

@Dej - My Emp case reflects heavily on the very point you made when you connected Dust and Emp in your previous post

@Mix - who are we all waiting on at this point? I think significant lurking has been taking place by now

[AA23]

@Emp - then you pick one - - you warn the seer not to CC in the event of a claim - - your logic would make sense had you not called for the claim yourself

otherwise, why would you be afraid the seer would out themselves before dust claims?

[AA23]

Alright -

Unvote

I'm going to write today off as what I hate - - lynch hunting. I'm observing until all the lurkers have posted and our to V/LA's are back.

FoS: Dust & Emp

[AA23]

Glad you think I'm cool, Gorkcat, maybe stick to scumhunting, though.

Oh, forgot Ash should be added to that list.

hewitt, khamisa, zwet, Ace, Ash

Not happy with that list - - And it's fair to say, Gorckat, that someone who periodically pokes in to post but doesn't contribute to the cause is actively lurking, no?

**I skimmed through the game details same way anyone else would - - got my pm, glanced at the mod list of pm's, and only read into seer and werewolves - I was familiar with the other ones and had always associated Nk's with scum**

- - So aside from personal attacks on me based on "I think you're trying to look cool and rational" do you mind contributing?

[AA23]

Active lurker.

And understandably. We have indeed posted a lot recently. Just try to be a little more sensitive to the process here, I've tried to exhaust any theories that came to mind and while they may not all be worth persuing, every dead end is one we don't have to worry about and thus tightens a scope on the right trail - - we're all trying here.

I can be equally sensitive to any time constraints - - let us know what you come up with, there's of course time since we have to wait on the people who aren't posting at all...

[AA23]

wow.

[AA23]

At the time I believe he was number 1 in my mind for two reasons. The first is that he stuck out the most prominently

in my mind as someone I disagreed with pretty much just based on quantity of posting which is not a good reason to suspect someone but he was the one I most remembered.

You admittedly suspected me for a bullshit reason and have the right to judge my case on Dust?

My case on dust was me supporting a vote on him, not a lynch - - Part of what was happening was seeing who flocked to the wagon and how things cooked up - - the game was developing, there was nothing malicious and my reasoning was sound for all my actions.

Aside from your admittedly scummy mind set for regarding other players - - do you have anything to contribute to the scumhunt? Thoughts and questions? Ideas?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll acknowledge what Ace says. On a past account, there was a game where I was scum. However, I didn't stifle the RVS at all. In fact, as I recall, I was one of the random voters. My philosophy on the game has changed a bit since then, but the example Ace is citing isn't relevant.

If it means proving Ace to be lying, I will out myself.

What exactly do you have to hide?

[AA23]

Okay, I can respect that

[AA23]

Re: Empking:

The very statement is "Dust, protect yourself - Everyone else, let him!"

This only works if they're scumbuddies. Yes, putting it together in a sentence means this is a possible interpretation, but I just don't see it yet. Emp asked for a claim. He didn't want anyone to CC a Seer claim, which was ensuring the best result for the town. We went over this when zwet

asked directly

for a CC, and we addressed just how bad a CC would be.

To be sure that no points are being missed, I really do want everyone to give an answer on this one:

Do we understand that asking for a claim is only useful if we intend to see how it stands to a counterclaim/with the town? I'm not being sarcastic, I just strongly feel you've all lost something in the texthere.

Instructing a man to claim, and in the same sentence instructing everyone not to challenge it - - is communicating an immunity play to a scum buddy.

It is not scummy to not want a CC - - it is not scummy to ask for a claim - - it is scummy to instruct a player to gain the immunity of a claim whilst instructing the town not to challenge it.

You have all said it yourself - - if a claim was on the way no matter what - - based on common sense and the need for survival.....why ask for it? Remember, you've all said it yourself, it's just SO expected and obvious - - why instruct both motions that cancel eachother out?

One can't say "Oh he asked because it was coming anyhow" - because in the same sentence was the "Don't CC" - One would have to say "Guys, if/when he claims, don't CC" - - so it's not that Emp saw it coming,

It was "Dust - claim. It's immunity" "Town, don't challenge it, or it will make confusion/risk lynching him"

A claim, 99% of the time works hand in hand with a counter (when we ASK for the claim)

The request of no CC is us covering our asses.
---------------------

I really am asking - - do we see the distinction? He didn't say "If/When" and the request for no CC was in the same sentence-- it was scum communication.

And since it was two instructing statements, and there was no if/when, one can assume that it was a nervous scum communicating with a buddy. He jumped the gun (as logic holds it, since we agree the claim was innevitable and expected) - - jumped the gun as a nervous scum buddy, and reinforced that his pal should claim, whilst telling us not to challenge it.

These weren't seperate statements, these weren't what if's or "Hey, when he does it, don't claim" - - it was "Dust - Claim - it's immunity - - Town, let him" - - and THAT is scummy!!

I'm trying Bill Nye stuff with the repetition but do you all see the point now? PLEASE tell me this doesn't at least provoke thought because I find it rather interesting.

[AA23]

Please acknowledge 258 - I need to know I'm not crazy here and the thought is at least

understood

, I'm not asking for vote on him, just READ it-
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Ace:

Reasons why I voted: See my explanation and my Dust meta (a few pages ago)

Ace lies about a meta to put a vote down and gets caught/suspected of it later - - this could make him a villain and the reasons for lying suggest Dust being a villain of the opposite variety to him.

Reasons why I stayed: My LA
Reasons for pulling off:

He claimed an un-countered seer. That's good enough for me.

opinions: This is tricky.

While Dust has done some scummy actions

(and

I don't like the circumstances of his claim ("Don't kill me, I'm the seer"))

, the

lack of a counterclaim makes me think he is town (if you are seer and dust is not, please don't CC

. We need our only PR to not be outed kthxbai).

This post is riddled with the very redundencies I said was initiated by what Emp did.

Ace, a potential partner of the same villain variety, is now playing both sides of the fence and has moved up to

actively

lurking with this post.

In the above post:

1.Why list the reason for voting him being meta, and later say he's done scummy things? were they not worth mentioning, or non existent?
2.He says he doesn't like the circumstances of the claim - Please, all, refer to 258
3. He hates that the lack of a counterclaim is stoppijng him from knowing....."God, if only there was a CC, you know? I'd be able to lynch scum because I love town so much! OH the cross I bare!!!!!!!!!.......ps - nobody CC"

[AA23]

If he lied in order to get a vote down, that's working for it, that's wanting a lynch, making me think he too could be a villain - - As I feel Dust is also a villain, I suppose they are of different allignments each.

I am suspicious of Dust, Emp, and Ace - - I think Ace may be different allignment of villain than Dust, and I think Emp is Dust's partner and he communicated to him.

I look forward to the 258 responses (sincerely)

[AA23]

EBWOP - in case the first sentence reads poor - - lying is what makes Ace potentially villain, working for the lynch makes Dust one of a dif. variety as one wouldn't attack their own

[AA23]

We'll discuss Ace vs Emp once you respond to my post

[AA23]

it's hardly a case so much as a LEAD that I would like to follow - - and my points on Emp are significantly more substantial than a semantics game played on Ace - - who's to say it wasn't stream of thought hyperbole when he was trying to convey that he had played with the guy as scum before?

And passing off what I'm showing you guys as scumtalking for "Emp if being Emp" - threatens to be immunity based on meta -

We can't just ignore things because we think he's insane.

I feel like less consideration/weight fall on what I tell you guys when you think it's a case so

Unvote

I want you to understand this is following a lead, not persecuting, and right now, I feel my points on Emp are strong.

Actually answer some of the questions I ask in the post:

If the claim was inevitable, why ask for it whilst saying not to claim? Why pair them together?

The above is the important question that shows you it's scumtalking. If he wanted us not to CC, he could have told town "Hey, if/when he claims, dont CC" - but he didn't - I'm asking you all why.

So answer, please

[AA23]

EBWOP "Emp is being Emp" meta immunity for being crazy instead of actually considering the idea I present

[AA23]

It's not a defense, it's the absence of attacking him. You havbeen fishing for Ace votes from me and once again are not reading the posts well - you or Dej.

GUYS - Everything you're saying applies to the two statements alone (of requesting a claim, and requesting no CC).

Did you guys even re-read Emp's post?

Dust, I think you should claim. (REmember if he false claims Seer don't counter claim)

This is not:

"Guys, don't CC, it won't be safe"
"Dust, please claim" - - because he follows it with saying not to counter (in which case - - why would we need the claim at all if we won't challenge it? - immunity)

(REmember if he false claims Seer don't counter claim)

How would we know if he false claims? Why make that statement?

The entire sentence does NOT BENEFIT the town.

The point of a claim is to see how it stands with the town (against evidence and counters)

The point of a Request for no CC is to protect us when the person on trial claims

You CANNOT have it both ways - - They CANCEL each other out - - hence it was not a town move, it was scum communication to me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I based the first part of what you quoted me on from you and Dej saying he lied - - in between that and me realizing it was semantics, I read back to his statement - - it's purely hyperbole hat can be exploited as a scumtell - I'm not lynching someone for that.

And you've been itching for more votes on him and trying to sell it to me - if you want to FoS me for not apeasing you, by all means, mix, but you seem pretty hasty to want more votes on the wagon yet you haven't heard from all the lurkers yet, have you?

Think about it - - The true hypocrite is you. You and anyone else who said it was best to wait to hear from the whole town and not just the most active ones.

See I'm not building on a wagon - I've illustrated such with taking my vote off - I'm following suspicions.

I haven't taken scum attention off of dust or tried to defend him, and I'm investigating a player that has no votes on him - how could that be scummy of me?

I think the reason you want more votes is because you've finally fallen into the trap of huntin a lynch over hunting scum. Think about it - I'm the one thinking Dust is dirty (no pun intended) and am investigating Emp who has no votes on him (I'm not even chasing a wagon) - I'm not distracting, I'm not chasing building wagons for an easy quick lynch.

Wait for the rest of the town to participate more - they teach us more than you think just by being active, friend.

Vote Count

zwetschenwasser 3 - Khamisa, dejkha, AshMC1984
AceMarksman 3 - Percy, Mixologist, Dust
AA23 1 - Gorckat

[AA23]

And "ooh this is fun" - Dej took the time to read my post and acknowledges it doesn't make sense and counts as scummy - stop hasseling me for preferring my suspicions over yours - - maybe you would see what he saw if you took the time to read through it again.

[AA23]

"Oh this is fun"

You're not reading the posts again, Mix.....

AA23 wrote:

I based the first part of what you quoted me on from you and Dej saying he lied - - in between that and me realizing it was semantics, I read back to his statement - - it's purely hyperbole hat can be exploited as a scumtell - I'm not lynching someone for that.


I already answered that.
-------------------------------------------------
And your second point? Not misdirection.

We currently have Zwet most close to a Lynch, and Dust who just claimed and has death at the end of his road no matter what.

Dust is someone I've connected to all my recent theories as still being dirty - - meaning no matter who I investigate, I hold on to Dust (like a monkey not letting go of the back branch while grabbing the front)

Misdirection would have been turning full attention away from him and putting it on another player - - so, sorry mix.

And as for the second player, Zwet? He hasn't claimed and only has votes on him - - I've looked away from Zwet with Emp no more than you have with Ace.

Are you anxious for this to get moving? (understandable) - Or desperate?

[AA23]

Mix I appreciate you taking the time to read it and get back to me - I mean that.

You have your Ace hunch, and I have my Emp one, either way, I would say agreeing to disagree is best because our eggs aren't in one basket.

On the point of semantics - - the only way I can see it not as hyperbole is if he only had ONE game with him - - otherwise, the sentence where he exaggerated was "In the game where he was scum" instead of "In all the games he was scum in" (which as one, is misleading).
--------

@Dust - If you're innocent, I would have to agree with Mix's position on Ace - - It would suggest the hyperbole was selective and intentional to suit him best - - exaggerate when he wanted the vote on - - and say "it was only one game" when he wanted it off.

You innocence/guilt will determine for me if I go for Emp/Ace.

[AA23]

I really want the whole town to kick up the activity at this time before I consider something like that, Dust - - Too much lurking.

It's hard to think so many people have so little to say at this point in time - Khamisa, Ace, Percy...

Zwet, Gorckat...

[AA23]

The situation I'm in is that I didn't wat a claim to begin with - I am not a fan of such a thing happening on Day1 - This is actually the first game it's happened this early (that I've played)

[AA23]

Is there a point to all this? (not sarcastic)

We all have different positions on claiming, it's not like I didn't tell you all how I felt about the situation - none of us liked it - Emp, what exactly are you leading to?

I'm getting tired of hearing how obvious and inevitable the claim was - - it makes it all the more scummier that Emp told Dust to do it and then said nobody should counter.

If anything, I would have suggested telling Dust NOT to claim.

A claim isn't the be all end all action of someone facing a lynch - - the alternative, is defending yourself against the case, and discovering potential scum in the process - am I wrong?

Emp left us without that choice.

[AA23]

Dust - you're saying it would have been bad and you wanted to take scum down - Are you aware that in being lynched, and having a NK - we would have had more to go off the next day, rather than risk a mislynch today - - you're under the impression you're of any use to us now - - your death is inevitable and that's the only thin that will provide us with information.

However - I will withdraw my suspicions on Emp.

***I feel like a Counter Claim isn't restricted to someone typing the contrary to your claim. It can be in the form of a voting process.

For instance - - if someone else were the real seer - they would know you are a villain. They would not be claiming right now, but they would be insane to not want you lynched (thus, they would vote or FoS you, and try to hang you by other means)

There are no votes or cases on you at this time - I believe your claim.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Assuming everyone follows - We have a doomed seer, and suspicions on Ace for what, again?

Mix, you seem most familiar with the Ace case (that rhymes...) - Can you spell it out for me and help me understand it better? - I understand he played a word game to put a vote on Dust, and played it safe with semantics to distance himself, but I don't understand anything past that.

[AA23]

Hewitt - You're coming across as a bit of a nodding head since the bottom of pg 12. - - can you give more reasoning behind anything you're agreeing with? (ie. Ace telling us we can CC tomorrow when Dust is dead no matter what anyhow - - Dej pointing this out - -and then you agreeing with it regardless?)

Mix - - are you talking about "why isn't your vote on him"? - -

FoS:Ace
For using hyperbole to strengthen a vote against Dust and opportunistically distancing yourself to take it off.

I want more before I vote. We have time - - and I'm not satisfied with Hewitt, he indeed types more than he says, and I take his jumping back from lurking with agreeable manner to be suspicious.

Hewitt- - you answered mix's questio, but acknowledged the first two before he clarified Dust's - - Can you not give an opinion on the other wagons?

[AA23]

@AA-

Who on the wagon do you think is Wolves and to that extent who off the wagon do you think is Mafia?

I'll live with a top three for now.

Please stop sidestepping.

...?

This is directed to me and aparently said by you - can you clarify?

[AA23]

Oh, I see what you did there -

Yeah, I can't answer that question, not enough evidence and speculation would be filler

[AA23]

How am side stepping? I think you're lashing out at people that don't dance to your tune, friend - I will not rush any investigation, or speculate the allignment of multiple people with no evidence - are we clear?

The moment a finger is pointed at someone, cases become manufactured around them in an attempt to fill said suspicion.

I want scumtells to lead me to people - not an eager player that wants the day to end telling me to draw names from a hat.

I'm having hard enough time determining the allingment of one and don't want to risk a mislynch so exuse me if I'm not interested in saying "These guys!!" **points**

[AA23]

I laughed on the inside when the sentence lead to "dane to your tune"... lol

[AA23]

Isn't he saying that he would lynch Dust if the scum didn't NK him? Which would suggest Dust is scum and make perfect sense?

And you said you didn't understand the first paragraph - reread post 300-302

You're still not coming across very town like to me - you're unclear and inaccurate

[AA23]

Hence I feel Hewitt is failing to say anything relevent - - he's voting you for making a statement that all of us are more or less on the same page with (the idea that Dust not being NK'd as very suspicious)

Yet between posts 300-302, he agreed with Ace that if Dust were alive tomorrow, he would want a CC.

Kind of a hypocrisy, not very sensible, and I feel like Hewitt is talking out of his hat so he can get out of the lurker stage.

Which he has yet to do for me.

Ace & Hewitt, not looking too hot.

[AA23]

Dust it occured to me that leaving you alive would be a tacic, however, you would have results from an investigation, no?

If you were alive tomorrow, and told us wo your investigation turned up scum/town - - I believe that after lynching you, it would not only prove the true identity of who you had a night read on, but we can link their allies and other villains based on the info

(to specify - - Day 2, Dust says "X" is town/scum - - Dust is lynched and flips either way thus informing us of the likely role of "X" - - we kill off "X" and see who interacted with him and how.

It's too risky for the villans to keep you alive, and I'm afraid to big a leap for us not to lynch you if you're alive tomorrow.

Circumstances are always unique though, so we will see how things unfold.

[AA23]

Yeah, but if Dust DOES survive tonight, a lynch would be greatly considered.

We would run the risk of having a mislynch today - a towny killed tonights - and then us lynching someone Dust points to tomorrow? What if it's another towny and after NK2 we're left with 4 innocents dead?

Hence I don't think it's reason enough to L-1 him

And Mix - why jump ship so willy nilly? Because majority said so and this is quicker than trying to get Ace lynched? Post 338 is really disheartening, it seems like you're following the lynch and not the scum - I haven't seen you put any energy into the Zwet case (which is still pretty thin)

[AA23]

Mix - you want to lynch Zwet so you don't need to put up with one liners, and you still maintain Ace is scum? - Why would you move from the scum you're more sure of to a suspected one you're annoyed of?

And Hewitt- - you're still not coming across very clear - - you've got numerous posts and I can't truly say what you stand for or think on any matter - - only that you want to defend a scm move like keeping Dust alive as a "brilliant" move - - are you trying to talk yourself up so it works?

It sounds like an emotional scum trying to toot his own horn - -

If Dust were not the real seer, a CC isn't necessary - you're telling me the real seer is amongst us and has chosen to show NO interest in questioning him or persuing his lynch by other means?

[AA23]

That's not at all what I'm doing AA.

You and zwets have been setting this all up so that if Dust were not nightkilled tonight and Dust really is the seer then that's an easy lynch for you tomorrow. That's all assuming you're scum that is, and I'm going to assume that he's the seer.

This is an outlandish statement to make before you simply agree with the very thing I was saying: I felt Dust was seer - if he were alive day 2, a lynch would be heavily considered - all circumstances are different

How is it you can be so lurkish for the majority of D1, so useless at the end of it, and still have contributed to a mislynch without anyone but me raising an eyebrow?

There's hell to pay on this one. I'm not impressed at ALL.

Zwet isn't going to contribute anything more than non-sensical one liners. Rolefishing for a counter-claim is about as good a D1 scumtell as we're going to get. I intend to see Ace lynched tomorrow. He is scum. However, now we won't have to shift through crap one-liners in the process. This was a good lynch. If you feel different, please feel free to express why. Otherwise, I have nothing else to say on the matter.

Mix - - you hammered, as this post suggests, based on UTILITY and the idea that NO CASE would be better than "Zwet fishing for a CC" - - why did this not occur to you when you were kicking and screaming about Ace?? Why would you only toss it out the window so QUICKLY and EASILY just because Zwet's picked up the most fast.

And on TOP of being a utility lynching hypocrite, on top of being OPPORTUNISTIC, you had the balls to suggest who our D2 lynch should be!

That reads NOTHING but scum to me.

I'm seriously concerned about YOU, and Dej - - I've played with him before, and he does NOT miss POOR and TERRIBLE logic such as what lead to this lynch unless it were DELIBERATE.

Mix, Dej, and Ace are what I regard as villains, however Ace is seperate from the other two, opposite, they want him dead.

Vote: Mixologist

[AA23]

No matter how you spin it, I wasn't responsible for any deaths last night

And I wasn't responsible for Dust claiming, I was responsible for having the ball rolling on this game - The idea was to see how other people reacted to a case, and it worked just fine. It's rather pushing it on your part to magically stir shit up with me over that THIS late - seems like you're reaching

How is it you have nothing to say on Mix's behavior? The guy jumped ship like nobody's business at the sign of a faster lynch, it's mental! What are your thoughts? He hopped on the dirtiest wagon I've ever seen! All the lurkers, Emp, and HEWITT - who he hadn't fully trusted yet!

And I have played with you enough to know that you don't ignore poor logic - unless deliberate - that was my statement - you're only furthering that in your post - - I can absolutely believe you when you say you would deliberately exercise poor logic for a utility lynch (or in this case, someone you don't like/need to kill as a villain)

My vote stays. Unless somebody magically confesses or is called out 100% during the events to come on this day - It's not changing. I'm sitting put.


***AND TO CLARIFY***
The next time you villains try to say a case is so wonderfully solid, and more so than someone lying like Ace - - Can you please tell me how Zwet was fishing?

FIRST POST

Zwet says we should CC

SECOND POST
He ONLY mentions it to CLARIFY to Emp who questions it

"Yes, we should CC"

THIRD POST
He says he thought it WOULD have been helpful

Even I said in my many posts that such a thing would strike one as helpful! What's that point of not countering a claim - you lynch scum as a result, it's a more than understandable position

He was NOT fishing, he was NOT pushing, he JUSTIFIED why he mentioned it - and you guys are the ones who drilled it and wouldn't shut up about it.

[AA23]

Firstly - Terrible reason to vote ANYONE

Second - You're seperate from lurkers with Hewitt in that sentence. Note the comma. I'm not calling you a lurker. You're

[AA23]

And your last sentence reads poor -

[AA23]

You've pointed out the poor logic for me -

Zwet clearly wasn't kicking and screaming for a CC - he mentioned it once and brought it up twice in response to someone asking him about it

It was a weak case, and there was a better lead on Ace -

And poor logic? If Mix jumped ships because that wagon built so fast, and you stayed on a wagon with Hewitt and Emp who you don't trust - - how is that logical?

Hewitt hops on a wagon and you don't think anything of it? You don't turn an eye to him?

Mix was chasing a lynch. Anyone who doesn't see how dirty that hammer was is only aiding me, I'll know who his partners are.

And our meta together only shows that you're potentially just as poor a towny as you are scum - I'm going to beat you, and you're not going to burn this town on my watch.


And what's that crap you're saying about turning to Emp when you run out of leads?

You profess utility lynching tendencies that hurt town, and admit you're just going to swing to him when your pockets are empty? You're keeping him around for a decent mislynch -

[AA23]

You've pointed out the poor logic for me -

Zwet clearly wasn't kicking and screaming for a CC - he mentioned it once and brought it up twice in response to someone asking him about it

It was a weak case, and there was a better lead on Ace -

Yeah, but Ace's case mostly relied on what Dust flip (if he died).

That would then dictate voting for Dust to prove said theory - - The Zwet case was incredibly weak and non-existent

And poor logic? If Mix jumped ships because that wagon built so fast, and you stayed on a wagon with Hewitt and Emp who you don't trust - - how is that logical?

Hewitt hops on a wagon and you don't think anything of it? You don't turn an eye to him?

Ok, maybe it wasn't logical

, but I've seen Zwet do it, so some people are just noobs at the game. I don't think anything of it. If you do, then good for you, keep at it and prove me wrong.

Dej - I like you because of what I've seen from your playstyle, so believe me when I say it's hard for me to believe you would only acknowledge such poor logic this late!! You know what a mislynch does to a town and you ALWAYS weigh the options and possibilities out first (not to MadeofPhail's extent, but still) - -

If there truly was a case worth while on Zwet, that suspicious people WEREN'T on? Yeah, maybe I'd believe you - but there are too many things wrong with this equation

What would I say anything about hewitt that I haven't already said? The guy hardly posts...

Exactly my point! - - The Dej I've seen play would have turned an eye to him and found out what put him on the wagon - - you would have seen scum in hewitt for that - - not joined in on the fun and hop on the wagon!

And our meta together only shows that you're potentially just as poor a towny as you are scum - I'm going to beat you, and you're not going to burn this town on my watch.

Actually, that statement would imply that I was scum in the only game we've played, which I wasn't, so that doesn't make sense. Lol @ the last sentence.

Actually the statement is telling you that I acknowledge your play as town in the past where you lost, and I'm calling you scum in this game where you will lose - - both as a result of poor play against me as your opposition.

I've done it before, I'll do it again.

You've hurt the town, and you'll do it again - - I believe you. Utility lynching is dirty - - and saving Emp and Hewitt arouns for easy mislynches is cheap and I see right through it.

Mix was incredibly dirty for jumping on the Zwet wagon - the guy didn't do anything!

Counterclaims, anyone?

Unvote

He proposes the idea

I just said that people shouldn't counterclaim.

Unvote

Emp challenges it WITHOUT GIVING GOOD REASONS - THOSE COME LATER

Yes, they should counterclaim.

He repeats himself for Emp's case - we've all been there

------
Everyone kicks up a fuss

Why is a counterclaim bad? We kill guaranteed scum...

He asks a simple question - - even I did this, guys! We all ask around

And we're also guaranteed losing a Seer which is our only investigation role and can see if someone's a werewolf. Without him, we're blind.

Dej, unlike Emp - gives a decent answer - - however, the exact opposite could be argued (as in losing a definite seer, we can also lose a definite scum) - - catch 22 - - difference of opinions - -

He backs away and clarifies

I'm not pushing for a counter. It just seemed helpful.

And he wasn't pushing!! He suggested it, asked why it would be wrong, and settled for the safe rout we all agreed on - no CC

There's NO FRIGGIN CASE - - and yeah, I am more than confident Dej wouldn't give in to a case that poor, with a wagon that dirty, and not even question Mix for hopping onto it so willy nilly when he had something more substantial with Ace!

[AA23]

That's a pretty OMGUS FoS if you ask me.

I'm TRYING to say you're guilty? I AM saying you're guilty - you and Mix primarily.

And sue me, I'm telling you that from our LONG game together, I saw someone that was calculated and less hasty/illogical - I APOLOGIZE FOR THE MISTAKE.

Say what you want - - whether I live or die, I know who you and Mix are and am content -

We'll see what the town makes of you two - - I notice you haven't even commented on what I've pointed out from the "Zwet case"

It was non-existent, and in a game with 5 villains I can be damn sure almost all were on it.

[AA23]

You think I'm scum for discussing my thoughts and you can pass them off as WIFOM?

You think I'm scum because I pointed out that scum could have been on the Dust wagon - and I also said I myself should be considered? I'm scum for telling people myself and others from that wagon should be investigated? - Hm.

And you still have no Zwet comment - - hell, even my dust case was tangable - There was nothing on Zwet and one would be ridiculous to dispute - - the guy offered an expected idea, mentioned it twice, and dropped it - - you guys crucified him!!

And I think you and Mix are villains and I'm town - - those opposites

You're getting kind of aggressive and it makes me wonder if you're nervous with all the negativity, narrow mindedness, and nasty "get this through your head" attitudes.....

Should I let you get nervous in your scum boots, wait until you say something further unintelligent/useless, and put it in my signature? Should I start the lynch Dej movement? Is that what a logical player does lmao lol

You're my own Zwet/Emp character, you are.... lol

So you truly believed Zwet to be scum? based on asking everyone if we should CC, confirming to Emp that he proposed it, ASKED us what was wrong with it, and settled.

Very scummy.... lol

And Mix having nothing to do majorly with the "Zwet case" until it picked up and looked like an easy end to the day? That's not scummy?

Yeah right lol

Dej, I'm disappointed in you - - In these two games we've had, with two different roles - it's two different people - I think you're meaner as scum (which is an unfortunate give away)

[AA23]

Mix, you hammer is the least of my worries - - your impulsive wagon switch is what's scummy - it was unforseen and clearly a hunt for a lynch rather than truly scum - (as ultimately proven)

- Dej - you're digging a hole. You don't care about town 100% based on meta. Zwet and Emp are dispensible to you?

Are you forgetting that in the game you were town, you worked hard to put aside that prejudice in an effore to not let it hurt the whole town? - - are you aware I'm not basing my regard for you on just our game, but your entire meta that I took the care to read up on?.....I suppose that didn't occur to you.

And don't tell me what I know, presume, or think - - I'm saying I know what you and Mix are - And that is VILLAIN - - Once you/Mix flip, I'll have a better idea.

I'm perfectly content - - call for help all you want lol "Guys! hewitt! Lets get some dialogue!" lol - - need saving from the very people you duped into killing a towny?

And pray tell - - what was the case on Zwet if the "CC hunt" was bullshit? What was the case? Do take the care to simply state it, friend, and let me tell you - - it better be damn good and not based on interpretation.

Good scumhunting is based on quotes and evidence that are majority recognizable as scummy and not more so potentially town - - the best scum evidence is such that can't be confused as a towny move.

For instance, Mix - - you and Mix cared about making the right lynch. We needed to be careful. Careful is investigating and weighing options - - not hopping on a quicklynch out of the blue.

Confirm Vote: Mix

You've proven there's nothing in your pockets, friend - I think this is the part where you turn on Emp, Dej lmao

You said it yourself - - you don't give a shit if it's a player who's meta you don't approve of (Zwet, Emp) - - weird how you only try to be fair to that prejudice as towny....

[AA23]

Mix, you hammer is the least of my worries - - your impulsive wagon switch is what's scummy - it was unforseen and clearly a hunt for a lynch rather than truly scum - (as ultimately proven)

- Dej - you're digging a hole. You don't care about town 100% based on meta. Zwet and Emp are dispensible to you?

Are you forgetting that in the game you were town, you worked hard to put aside that prejudice in an effore to not let it hurt the whole town? - - are you aware I'm not basing my regard for you on just our game, but your entire meta that I took the care to read up on?.....I suppose that didn't occur to you.

And don't tell me what I know, presume, or think - - I'm saying I know what you and Mix are - And that is VILLAIN - - Once you/Mix flip, I'll have a better idea.

I'm perfectly content - - call for help all you want lol "Guys! hewitt! Lets get some dialogue!" lol - - need saving from the very people you duped into killing a towny?

And pray tell - - what was the case on Zwet if the "CC hunt" was bullshit? What was the case? Do take the care to simply state it, friend, and let me tell you - - it better be damn good and not based on interpretation.

Good scumhunting is based on quotes and evidence that are majority recognizable as scummy and not more so potentially town - - the best scum evidence is such that can't be confused as a towny move.

For instance, Mix - - you and Mix cared about making the right lynch. We needed to be careful. Careful is investigating and weighing options - - not hopping on a quicklynch out of the blue.

Confirm Vote: Mix

You've proven there's nothing in your pockets, friend - I think this is the part where you turn on Emp, Dej lmao

You said it yourself - - you don't give a shit if it's a player who's meta you don't approve of (Zwet, Emp) - - weird how you only try to be fair to that prejudice as towny....

[AA23]

So you want to stick to him asking about the CC even when I connected the only posts he mentioned on it? He wasn't forcing it! It wasn't scummy! He suggested it, and settled on not going for it because it was a general consensus that it was a bad idea - - so there goes that point lol

And wanting to kill Dust if he was alive today? THATS COMMON SENSE - - all circumstances are different, and unless there was outstanding evidence that who he would point to or someone else were scum, I myself would have voted him!

You can't keep someone like that alive and risk more townies dying in a mislynch/nightkill to come - - if someone claims seer and is alive the next day, they're either scum, or scum tool, and you can't trust their judgement till you know their allignment - - So there goes that point, genius lol - - common sense? You wanted him to burn for common sense?

And lastly - believing the meta? you're holding him responsible for having an opinion? You feel that was a good reason to lynch him over the person that LIED about the meta lol

I wish you could vote me twice, Dej, because you don't scare me at all lol - - your arguments have crumbled down to you pointing and "baha!"-ing at my statements on your meta (you're just being incredulous) and your actual case points and defense is WEAK.

You and Mix are going down - -

[AA23]

The rest of this board isn't stupid, Dej - - If they don't know why I think you and Mix are scum, I'll clarify it for THEM - -

You don't get to make requests, scum, you get to sit there and continue to feel helpless lol


**Everyone - I feel Dej killed a towny (Zwet) in an opportunistic, scummy way by voting a man without having a decent case and furhter trying to defend it with no/weak evidence - - I feel Mix was hunting a lynch and not scum, he kept trying to coax me on the Ace wagon so it would build, he didn't invest himself in the Zwet case at ALL until it came time to hammer, and he got excited in his scum boots and jumped ship so he could get to his night actions

Dej has tried for several posts now to form a defense and it's laughable how little he has to say to justify killing Zwet.

Dej - everyone else on the wagon could potential feel something similar to remorse for losing a towny - you don't seem phased - you've made it clear that you didn't NEED a case to vote Zwet (or Emp) - - you'll vote them for the hell of it - - - that ALSO makes you a HYPOCRITE - - why defend a non-existent case on Zwet and insist there was good reason to kill him when you constantly admit you don't WANT a reason to kill him.

Helpless... lol

[AA23]

I dun care. Also, I just noticed how you never spoke up against the reasons for voting him, until after he was lynched.

Perhaps you "dun care" to notice that I didn't have to speak up because I too was talking about my position on the relationship between a claim and a CC - - I felt they go hand in hand- did you miss it?....aw...lol

Keeping him alive or killing him, it doesn't matter, a townie/scum would've been NK'd because there's 2 werewolves, not one. Common sense isn't so common. Proof = you.

So you agree that Dust could have been left alive as a scum tactic, and that it wouldn't matter if he were lynched or kept alive.

Why kill Zwet for picking one of the two that don't matter?....that seems silly....like you lol

I stated my reason for lynching him over Ace.

So that we're clear - - out of the three weak responses you gave for lynching Zwet, the one you maintain is waterproof is the fact that he believed the meta Ace proposed?

You found someone believing the meta more scummy than someone lying about it?

Hm. Not so common, this "sense" business lol

]
If mine are weak, I can't imagine how horrible yours is. Your case must be pushing the limits of "suck".

So that we're clear - - in your desperation to defend your scummy self, you've ignored my observation that you would have lynched an innocent Zwet and hurt the town based on prejudice and don't need a case as you admit - - yet you're trying to form a case and are failing to - - and your defense has dwindled down to...."I know you are but what am I?" child like tactics? lol

It may be Wine in front of you, but I can't see the town being impressed by your hypocrisy and poor logic.

Failure, failure, failure.....lol

[AA23]

lol Yes! Call for a prod!! You need help Dej!!!!!! lol you're on the run, pal.

And your statement of wanting to kill Zwet and Emp and "there just happened to be a case" business? - - you're suggesting killing them is your primary prejudice and action, and the case (or lack there of) was just enough of a cherry on top to get away with it.

I can't wait till you turn on hewitt/Emp lol

Call for another prod, Dej - You're crashing and burning

(And I like how the only thing you found scummy about mix in your "re-read" was something another player JSUT pointed out lol)

think for yourself?

[AA23]

that wasn't a defensive prod lol I wanted input on the case I was making

I haven't had my back to the wall, you're mixing two different scenarios up lol

How desperate ARE you?? lol

You're like oragami....you fold under pressure.

You can't defend Zwet being a responsible lynch because you have irresponsible reasoning behind it. You admit that you will always lynch Zwet or Emp as soon as possible - you add that having a case is just a bonus - how can town trust that mentality?
And if you will lynch them no matter what, why are you desperate to insist there was a valid case? Why are all your points so easily put down?

The only point that can't be put down is the one that is purely a matter of opinion - - The fact that Zwet "believed Ace's meta call on Dust" - - however, that begs yet another question - - Why go for a guy that believed something, instead of the person who was caught in a LIE - - -

That being said, we can't trust that your judgement is in the best interest of the town - - how do we know whether you'll go after scum instead of your prejudice when you failed to do so on D1? You had the earliest vote on Zwet since page 3/4 - -

This is the very thing I warn about - - voting someone for weak reasons, and then building a case to fit the vote instead of building a case to then vote scum - - you had it in reverse from the get go.
------------------------------------------------------------------

And Mix was more than scummy with his bail out on the Ace wagon. He didn't majorly contribute to the Zwet case, and you'll notice the one major flaw....

Ace case - - Zwet case

Mix was on the Ace case and did not majorly care for the Zwet case.

The ONLY, I repeat

ONLY

change to the Zwet case was the number of votes.

Otherwise, why wouldn't Mix have hopped on sooner? There was no new evidence or points, and everything that WAS on him is easily argued off.

Mix is therefore 100% scum - - chased the lynch and not the scum, he wanted blood and he wanted to get night actions off the ground.

There was NO change in the Zwet case except the number of votes.

Boom. lol

[AA23]

I like how you go off of what I said BEFORE I announced that I re-read it and regarded it a lie lol

You and Dej are terrible at covering your scummy selves - and I love how that's all you had to say for yoruself.

Might as well put a bow on your heads... lol

[AA23]

[AA23]

For those catching up-

Case on Mix

He hopped on the Zwet wagon when the only thing to change was a number of votes - he chased a lynch to get his night actions started, he threw away his commitment to the Ace case and HYPOCRITICALLY and OPPORTUNISTICALLY

killed a towny

Rolefishing for a counter-claim is about as good a D1 scumtell as we're going to get. I intend to see Ace lynched tomorrow. He is scum.

The point of Zwet "role fishing" was old news and as I've shown - weak evidence - - - it existed long before his change of heart/vote - - so why give up on the Ace case? TO KILL - - -

And might I point out, that at least two of you voted for Zwet because he said Dust should be lynched if he were alive D2 - - you all said it was unfair and like planning a kill etc.

"I intend to see Ace lynched tomorrow. He is scum" - - HYPOCRITE! - - he's doing the exact same thing, and he killed a towny in exchange for a case on someone he believed to be scum?

Wonderful. Amazing lol

And yeah Ace, I am confident - - and kind of amused that you might take sides with the very two people who want you lynched. Though I can see why. In addition to the meta debocle, you have been active lurking sir.

heh. Lemme finish my read when I'm not about to fall asleep and I'll answer those.

Always promising....always reading...never helping lol lol

I know Scum when I see them

does anyone else not get the irony of this statement? See, seer, get it?

/bad pun.

Almost done with my read.

A wonderful joke...very helpful lol still reading?...adorable...

Starting to read what's been posted

since I last read (you guys talk way too much o.O) and I've got to say, I don't like the overly self-confidant tone of AA's posts.

Uh oh...I see a pattern lol

Or, you could just not even assume, and know that I'm telling the truth. ; D Hewitt is right. Fixation on me is not really helping. At all.

Anyway, Ace, answer my questions.

erm, may I have a link?

I'm trying to read through multiple games

en masse and I think I missed them.

Ah yes...we're not the only victims... lol
----------------------------------------------------------
Quite awesome. I love it when I'm right.

Mix, your number is up, man.

[AA23]

It's not like we should let evidence be ignored and let scum live just because I'm arrogant - world's full of us, it's the dangers of public - you'll meet us!

So assuming nobody is TERRIBLY distressed emotionally by my excitement at a solid scum trail, I'd like to keep things rolling

Khamisa - - there's a difference between wanting to get people active, and not being able to defend ones self - - All of the things I'm stirring up stand strong, and all Dej has to say about it is weak - -

He and mix have not cleared themselves, and I reckon the call for more activity was a scummy hope that maybe the people that were on the wagon with them, innocent or not, will come to their aid and call me off - -

not happening though - - I'm happy right here with my strong case and vote.

Tell me about your thoughts on the Mix case, then, in respect to the forementioned observations:

[AA23]

Before we go into this land of magic where Dej digs yet deeper... lets list a direct quote where he has his three main poins for lynching a towny that he is admittedly prejudice to.

- Asked for CC twice.
- Wanted to kill Dust if he remained alive, almost as if he was setting it up
- Oh and the real chunk of the case: believing Ace's meta on Dust without question or evidence of any kind.

I acknowledged these three. Let that be noted - he seems to have some chronological mix up with his quotes to manufacture back and forths.

You think I'm scum because I pointed out that scum could have been on the Dust wagon - and I also said I myself should be considered? I'm scum for telling people myself and others from that wagon should be investigated? - Hm.

I never said that.

I told you my opinion on how many scum were on said wagon - - you incredulously passed that off and told me "Just like you thought scum was on the Dust wagon including yourself"

I was illustrating that My point was no less valid, and I was hardly scum for saying there was a wagon full - including myself - - but nice try

Here he tries to make it look like I had one minor reason to lynch Zwet:

So you truly believed Zwet to be scum? based on asking everyone if we should CC, confirming to Emp that he proposed it, ASKED us what was wrong with it, and settled.

That wasn't all. I later gave the 3 reasons for my vote.

I DID acknowledge the three points. And all of them were terrible

Now, it's no surprise how the game is/was getting slow and only a few people were posting, but he now gets desperate enough to call requested prods a call for help. That's downright pathetic and clearly a scummy thing to say. Not to mention how he to has called for people to participate, which shows hypocrisy.

If you bothered to read - I stated the difference between prodding to get things moving, and prodding when you're all out of ideas on how to get out of a situation.

Niether you or Mix have cleared yourself of the suspicions. In fact, you're going so far as to mass post OPINIONATED nonesense against me. It's terribly weak.

why defend a non-existent case on Zwet and insist there was good reason to kill him when

you constantly admit you don't WANT a reason to kill him.

He claims that I constantly admit that I didn't want a reason to kill Zwet when I never said that either.

hypocrite playing both sides....

Have you or have you not made it clear that you will lynch Zwet and Emp no matter what, and did you not say that there "happened to be a vote on them as well"

What else are we supposed to take from your GARBAGE? Prejudice.... lol you're not holding up too well

So that we're clear - - out of the three weak responses you gave for lynching Zwet, the one you maintain is waterproof is the fact that he believed the meta Ace proposed?

To be fair, here he was asking if that's what I was saying. But I also never said or implied that, so I'm baffled as to how he came to that conclusion that I thought anything was proved.

Okay, so I'm going to post it again.

I smashed to pieces the first two poins of your Zwet case - they were weak and terrible - - the one you yourself said was dominant - the big reason (and if it wasn't waterproof, why vote, you scum...)

- Asked for CC twice.
- Wanted to kill Dust if he remained alive, almost as if he was setting it up
-

Oh and the real chunk of the case:

believing Ace's meta on Dust without question or evidence of any kind.

lol that was fun - - lets do that again

- Oh and the real chunk of the case: believing Ace's meta on Dust without question or evidence of any kind.

Caught in a lie, Dej - you did say it, and I did acknowledge your three lame points.

-------------------------------------
And my point on Hewitt is that you STAYED ON THE WAGON when he did and didn't suspect him - - not that you joined** - - I'm saing I have a problem that you trusted a wagon with untrustworthy people (lurker)
------------------------------------
And meta lying?

Are you telling me what I have and haven't read? Are you saying that you have NEVER in a game on this board, exercised logic and patience as a towny to be safe than sorry?

Keep scraping in those pockets, you're not gonna find anything

AA and his suspects and their roles:

Mix, Dej, and Ace are what I regard as villains, however Ace is seperate from the other two, opposite, they want him dead.

So according to that post he thinks Mix, Ace and I are scum. He also says that he thinks me and Mix are of the same scum faction and that Ace is in the opposite. Fair enough.

You seem to need me to repeat things on this - - for the last damn time - - I am town, opposite to you and mix who are VILLAINS - - and because I suspect that Ace may be dirty, it would suggest by you wanting him dead that maybe he's of different allingment - - it's logic - -

Mix is therefore 100% scum - - chased the lynch and not the scum, he wanted blood and he wanted to get night actions off the ground.

Here he claims the reasons for Mix's hop to the wagon was to get the night going for the night actions. This implies that he believes Mix is 100% Werewolve, since Mafia have no reason to want the night to come any sooner than town since they don't have the ability to NK. So as of now, his conclusions are Werewolves: Me and Mix and Mafia: Ace and two others.

Night progression for any villain is a good thing - - I can only say who is scummy, I won't go so far as to give titles -

that having been said - - what are you trying to prove with this quote? And where are your opinions?

Did nothing strike you as odd when I mentioned how Mix jumped on a wagon that only changed in one way - the numbers? No case changes of any sort - all old reasoning that could have had him on the wagon sooner - it's scummy, Dej - nothing but

So now he knows without a doubt that we're scum. But not only that, but he also claims that he doesn't know our specific roles, which the last presented quote would beg differ to. So AA, what do you presume we do with you if you're wrong about one of us?

Dej, "pal" - - my vote is on Mix right now because THAT evidence is concrete - - everything with you being a prejudice who was on a wagon of bad logic suggests you're dirty to me - but I don't lynch townies who are stupid, and right now, you're in the gray area-

However Mix? Not wrong about him. Not at all - - I want scum lynched so bad right now and there was EVERYTHING scummy about Mix hopping off that wagon and you know it - - NOTHING changed - no pull factors, no push factors - - he saw the numbers, and went for the kill! It's not like there was new evidence, anything he says to justify it is old news that should have made him give up on the Ace case earlier, no??

The next time you villains try to say a case is so wonderfully solid, and more so than someone lying like Ace

So now Ace is lying? But before you said "it's purely hyperbole that can be exploited as a scumtell..." So which is it?

The rest of this board isn't stupid, Dej - - If they don't know why I think you and Mix are scum, I'll clarify it for THEM - -

You don't get to make requests, scum, you get to sit there and continue to feel helpless lol

That can be interpreted in two ways. Either scum needing time to form a case or scum finding a way out of explaining a nonexistent case. [/quote]

hey! nutbar! If you read THE VERY NEXT LINE in THAT POST, I actually do it...lol poor Dej, wrong again

That's your problem. This is all opinionated until we get others in here to show who they agree with and why. For all you know, everyone will come in and say your case is shitty (even I don't think that will happen though).

It won't - - the mix case is strong - - if anything they'll come in and tell me (rightfully) I'm being a jackass, but that doesn't mean I'm WRONG - - Mix is scum, and you kicking up a fuss over YOUR MISTAKE is diverting attention.
--------------------------
I didn't defend Zwet or hop on that wagon because it wasn't threatening his life - - why don't you peek at who was voting him and see how often they were ACTIVE, Dej!!! I figured their votes were there for early poor reasons - - hence all the more reason I try to root out real scum with MY case - - just like Mix was doing with HIS case - - we were all doing our JOBS until a quicklynch sprung with lurkers, a prejudice, and mix the scum.

I'm not wrong!

[AA23]

- Asked for CC twice.
- Wanted to kill Dust if he remained alive, almost as if he was setting it up
- Oh and the real chunk of the case: believing Ace's meta on Dust without question or evidence of any kind.

-Asked about it, clarified, heard what the consensus was, threw the idea out the window
-Wanted to kill someone that claimed PR and doesn't get NK'd? Even I said that would be considered. - - - oh, and lets not forget even MIX said that "Ace is next" for D2 - - where do you draw the line for "planning" things, Dej? eh buddy?
-Oh, and the real chunk of the case: You persecuted him for believing someone you said lied. Why aren't you more concerned with the liar? You seem selective on the matter... **and either way...pretty weak...**


Nice case, Dej. - - understand why I don't trust someone that lynches over that?

[AA23]

I acknowledged these three. Let that be noted - he seems to have some chronological mix up with his quotes to manufacture back and forths.

You didn't acknowledge them until I posted that, is what I meant.

learn how to type what you mean then...

I DID acknowledge the three points. And all of them were terrible

If you bothered to read - I stated the difference between prodding to get things moving, and prodding when you're all out of ideas on how to get out of a situation.

If you bothered to read -

I stated

why you're scummy for saying that.

You stated I'm scummy for difference of opinions? Magic lol

Niether you or Mix have cleared yourself of the suspicions. In fact, you're going so far as to mass post OPINIONATED nonesense against me. It's terribly weak.

Why do you insist on speaking for everyone? We haven't cleared ourselves of

your

suspicions, not

the

suspicions. Are you speaking on behalf of your scumbuddies?

If that's your logic at work there, I feel sorry for you.

I said "the" - it's competely appropriate.

Have you or have you not made it clear that you will lynch Zwet and Emp no matter what, and did you not say that there "happened to be a vote on them as well"

X FUCKING D. I didn't say that.

Also, I doubt you've played with me enough to know that

I don't care if Zwet and/or Emp are lynched for poor reasons. They could be lynched for nothing for all I care, I'll lynch them both on policy.

I just

happened

to have a reason this time.

Post 351...

I want you to soak in that for a minute....mmmm.... lol

At least I can provide actual quotes to back myself up against your defenses....

This is an offense - try not to forget that you're the one being pointed at - I don't have blood on my hands, and you have a utility lynch on your hands as well as turning a blind eye to the Mix case - - what ARE your opinions on that? eh? lol

No, I'm telling you what you clearly haven't read. You said I "know what a mislynch does to a town and

ALWAYS weigh the options and possibilities out first". You said "always", and since I proved you wrong, it shows that you were lying about basing it off my "entire meta".

So let me get this straight - - you're telling me you do NOT weigh options out before voting on a life to be taken? You lynch without thinking? because youre telling me I'm wrong for saying you DO - you do realize that, yes? lol


---------

Why aren't you more concerned with the liar?

The liar hasn't been posting and I'm pretty sure both of you are scum, so I don't care who I investigate, as long as it's one of you.

So in addition to him being a liar, he's a lurker - - and yet you voted Zwet simply for "believing" him? lol rich

Plus, it'll give you the time to look for those quotes

found'em... in fact - I'll post it again for fun.

And in case you're wondering - - yes, it IS fun laughing at your expense with my friends lol
Post 351

Also, I doubt you've played with me enough to know that

I don't care if Zwet and/or Emp are lynched for poor reasons. They could be lynched for

nothing

for all I care, I'll lynch them both on policy.

I just

happened

to have a reason this time.

Vote Count

Mixologist 2 - AA23, AshMC1984
AA23 2 - Empking, dejkha

[AA23]

I'm not voting you because you could very well be emotional and foolish with pride - - the only concrete evidence I know is on Mix.

So finally - - WHAT are your thoughts on ALL of the points raised on Mix from me?

And do read in full.

[AA23]

@all-Sorry for the lack of contribution since D2 started. Real life issues have kept me very busy and I haven't had time to really properly re-read until now.

So this post will probably shock everyone. Yes, yes, I'm actually proving AA right as far as his debate with dejkha goes.

@dejkha:

FoS:Ace
For using hyperbole to strengthen a vote against Dust and opportunistically distancing yourself to take it off.

Don't know the exact post, but if you read him in isolation it's there. It was quite easy to find.

@AA- Yes, I jumped ship. I have no defense if you want to lay your whole case on my switching votes. If there is something else you find scummy about me to this point, please bring it up. My posts, votes, and thoughts in the future will be more laid out and not so random.

Anyways, I still think Ace should be eliminated today as he is clearly actively lurking and not even attempting to respond to any of the said accusations.

vote Ace

Mix, you have to understand my position.

Were you hungry to have the day end? Because the ONLY thing that changed on the Zwet wagon was the move to L-1 **** otherwise you would have been there sooner, no?

So explain that for me so I can better understand, because what you, me, and Dej DO have in common is a scum read on Ace

[AA23]

Distracting?

Percy - while I hope you did some reading in your lurking time, did you notice that the very first post of D2 - very first - I point my finger at Mix, Dej, and Ace, and vote Mix?

I've kept my vote, maintained suspicions on Dej, and haven't left Ace out of the equation, especially most recently.

**And your thoughts on the Mix situation - - you think risking the lives of townies are okay when you want the day to end and someone's sitting at L-1 with a weaker case than the one you're on? (Ace)

I mean honestly - you all say I'm defending Zwet like mad - - You're all guilty on the flipside saying NOTHING BUT SCUM about Ace!!!! Your tune hasn't changed lol why didn't YOU GUYS do anything about those feelings earlier lol

You all had this certainty that Ace was scum, but exchanged it for a quicklynch to end the day? Percy they lurker, Mix the opportunistic, Hewitt the follower who didn't bring anything new to the wagon, and Dej the prejudice? - - YEAH - I've got an issue with the wagon lol

AWESOME lol

[AA23]

On your third and final point - when you want them both dead, and you understand the risk of towny loss with any lynch (as you say) - would you not weigh both cases out appropriately?

Your histrionics comment is completely opinionated, you seem to have a problem with the "you're doing it too!" defense yet didn't mention it when Dej did it, and you haven't addressed Mix's switch over.

My vote stays, Percy - I don't need your opinion on how the wagons went - you did some of the most intense lurking I've ever seen - you were a ghost almost all D1.

and above the 405 quote , yout number 1 point is WIFOM and putting words in my mouth as well as jumping to conclusions - - if you guys like lynching and bitching about other people doing things, don't be hypocrites and do it yourself.

You're all so adorable - -

This game always has promise of being fun and intelligent, but I learn more and more it's a bunch of people looking for ways to lynch - - not scum.

That idea is proven with everyone not having a DAMN problem with Mix hammering someone because it would have ended the day - - nobody has an issue with utility lynching?

[AA23]

Khamisa - Just because there's beef with me doesn't mean there is any scum evidence on me - - everything people are saying is completely opinionated, you can't prove that I'm putting on a face of any sort - - so there's no clearing, there's innocent until proven guilty (hence my vote isn't on Dej, it's on Mix)

Percy - You're telling me what I should have done about Zwet Day1 - - I was doing the same thing Mix was doing - I was looking/working on a case I felt to be stronger in hopes that people woudl realize it as such, and move to the stronger wagon -- his L status wasn't one for much investment considering we didn't have a lot of posts from people on it - they were lurking for the most part, so I assumed that if I had a decent case for them to read when they got back to the boards, it would inspire new thoughts - - there's nothing wrong with that

Your entire thought on the matter is assuming that everyone on the wagon was constantly active and supporting -- that's not the case

Dej - I like how little you still have to say - - and don't give me beef on quotes - - I'm still laughing about shutting you up with 351 lol

Dej - do you still have no opinions on the Mix hopping over case?

Does nobody find it scummy that he went for the lynch and not scum? I mean, nobody is disputing that he went for it because = it was a lynch - - it's not like Ace was any less scum, at least three of you want Ace dead, and WANTED him dead FOR D2 ON D1 (the very line of thinking you all killed Zwet over).

He chased a lynch and it resulted in a dead towny.

[AA23]

Actually, I've proved you've been lying and trying to make people think others have said/done thing's that they haven't.

No, you pointed out what you FEEL are lies - they are your opinions

I'm not giving you beef on quotes, just saying how it's clear that I can provide them to point out your lies and you have failed to use them to back up your defense. I'm just pointing out the facts is all.

Opinions aren't facts

I posted 351, so you can't shut me up when I made the post.

lol I can shut you up when you tell me to provide you with proof that you said it - - it's actually MORE SAD that you typed it and FORGOT lol so thank you, I agree

Dej - do you still have no opinions on the Mix hopping over case?

The same opinion I had last time you asked: I don't find it very scummy.

Then we have no more business together - I'll keep to my wagon and you keep to yours.

[AA23]

Damnit Dej, it wasn't you, we grew apart and are different people now than when we started out....lol

[AA23]

Dust flipped Seer and it clears him of those suspicions - it would be unfair for me to insist it, and ignorant for me to try and reform the theory to fit someway else - the post is a null tell.

All of what you're saying on Zwet was established early enough for you to have been on the wagon earlier - yet you were still confident in Ace, just as you are confident now - - I feel as though you are flip flopping as to just HOW scummy he is to whichever way is most convenient to you (it's just how it's coming across) - - If what you say is indeed accurate - you switched over because of the numbers, yes? (if that's inaccurate, please correct me)

[AA23]

The last statement is what doesn't make sense.

You don't like being on a wagon early unless you're starting it, but you say you can't prove it because you haven't palyed enough (which begs the question how would you know what you like that much) - - You say that you didn't switch to that wagon because of numbers.

If it's not the numbers, all the reasons you're stating suggest that you would still have gone over earlier - - even for the L-2/L-1 - - but you were still working on the Ace case - why? Why work on another case if you feel the Zwet lynch would be best for D1? Isn't that a bit backward? Why would you not mention much of Zwet throughout your scumhunt - it didn't seem like he was a big deal on your radar, Ace was something you seemed really bent on.

There was no new evidence or case development on either wagon - - Zwet made it to L-1 and you switched to him - - you hadn't participated in his wagon or switched any earlier - - If you're telling me that you didn't switch because he was at L-1, why don't you have any reasons that make sense to do it so LATE?

It's just that, Zwet seemed to mean NOTHING to you compared to Ace until he was at L-1 - it seems fishy

[AA23]

All the reasons you gave could have put you on the Zwet wagon without being early or starting it (as you say) - - it doesn't make sense to push for ANOTHER wagon - at the very LEAST you could have discussed more of the Zwet case - it just seems like it came out of nowhere

[AA23]

If you asked somebody about a position on Ace, it DID come to you - - right now it just sounds like you noticed people were taking to him more and thought he must be scum (it's just how it comes across) - -

I feel like your interest in Zwet started at L-1 and finished with his lynched, that's the only problem I have.

And "your downfall" - is that poor wording? Because if you were town, it would be "our" not your - -

I hope you enjoy the wedding! (The sentence where you say you have to go to it is much funnier if I pretend you're the one getting married lol)

[AA23]

His reasoning suggests opportunistic BECAUSE it came so sudden and out of nowhere - -

The ONLY thing that instigated any change of heart or interest was the L-1. He had nothing leading to interest in Zwet before the vote, he was primarily interested in Ace.

[AA23]

Percy - if you read - Dej wanted to know where he had even suggested in the slightest that he didn't care about Zwet or Emp and that he would lynch them no matter what - - he told me to prove he said that - 351 does - - - clear? lol-----------------------------------------


After the claim from Dust - -

Zwet had three votes on him:

Dej
Khamisa
Ash

Oh, forgot Ash should be added to that list.

hewitt, khamisa, zwet, Ace, Ash

At this point in time Dej was the only person not lurking for the most part - - why would I consider the wagon a threat if they're not active? I took their inactivity as "I have time to find scum = weaker votes come off lame wagons and onto (whay I hoped would be) a strong one" - - -

Zwet ASKED us if we wanted to CC in 108 (and NEVER pushed it, Dej told him why it would be bad and he let it lie)

You'll all notice if you check back as I did - that Mix didn't post anything TO or ABOUT Zwet in ANY way about ANYTHING - -

in post 248 he finally pipes up to him and asks him who's scum.
---------------------------------
Mix said he doesn't like hopping on a wagon early or first. There were three people on the wagon and two were lurkers and the other was Dej - the wagon wasn't a threat to me.

Not the evidence never grew on Zwet after people regarded his inquiry as pressing a subject (extremely weak) - - I had done my best to express my own opinions on CC and claiming, and it did nothing for him as a result (In essence, I technically had the same views and questions on a CC, and nobody voted ME, they just kept theirs on Zwet.

I'd like to point out that in addition to Dej and his prejudice, there is Ash on the wagon who also has a tag that suggests policy lynching Zwet - - I'm not a fan of players who take pride in how quick they get players killed over how many scum they catch - - - mind you I'm only making these connections today because my mind is drawn to it as per the lynch - - - D1, my mind was on my own cases and wagons, simple as that.

Now, three votes on the wagon, no evidence change, and Mix hasn't said a word about Zwet and only speaks of his own case.

Could a man not inquire to Zwet? Investigate? Share his thoughts on how he feels about the wagon for Ace he's trying to build versus the wagon on Zwet he is seemingly oblivious to?

I don't believe him when he says he had thoughts, feelings, and judgement between the two cases. I believe he was full steam ahead on his Ace case and only moved to Zwet because he was at L-1. Only moving to a player for that reason is opportunistic. It is EVIDENCE to me that the reason is because of the L-1 because there is ZERO evidence that Mix had any thought toward the Zwet PRIOR to this. That is my case.

And in retrospect, the Ace case was stronger, or at least worth taking a risk on.

Lynched someone for bringing up CC? I brought up a CC (granted, with better articulation)
Lynched someone with prejudice? (two players on the wagon who lynch Zwet without care and cross their fingers that he's scum) - - not to mention the rest of the wagon were lurkers who I wouldn't have thought to be AROUND for my questions and case making - - they were WAY too quiet.

1.WHAT I'm saying is that Mix is scum for being opportunistic (as we've heard me chatter on over and over) - - he's opportunistic for letting nothing but an L-1 lure his vote (which means you're hungry for Night/Death - very anti town) - - and I feel it was ONLY the L-1 because he made NO post and NO comment of ANY sort and BARELY conversed with Zwet or in his direction until the L-1 came.

Also, since you are voting Empking instead of Ace, do you believe Empking to more likely be scum than Ace?

Are we to assume that he is SELECTIVE in cases he compares, or just says he compares them on D2 when called scum? I think he's back tracking.

His vote isn't dirty for soley being the hammer - it's dirty because it came out of NOWEHERE.

2.My hostility to Dej = = Looking back is important for us to better see ahead. If we can't look at a wagon and think "that wasn't good, now that I think of it", then we're not swallowing our pride and admitting a mistake. I feel only scum would not admit such a wagon was dirty (or at least take the time to consider)

zwetschenwasser 7 - Khamisa, dejkha, AshMC1984, Hewitt, Dust, Empking, Mixologist

Khamisa, Ash, Hewitt - lurkers - 3

Ash voted. Yet coming closer to the lynch, before lurkin again, said

1. Zwet. If someone's meta is null, then it should be thrown out and just focus on the current game. Statements like ''If this was anyone but Zwet I would be voting right now" don't make sense to me if it's generally agreed that his meta is null.

or,

2.

Ace. I can't write that off as just a wee exaggeration.

Okay...so we still have a vote on Zwet? And we all agree Ace is scum?
Hewitt

That was the perfect answer for scum. Scum can send in a nightkill on anybody else other than Dust and then support lynching Dust because he wasn't nightkilled (a.k.a. "proving" he's scum). You totally walked right into that one zwets and I think I've totally caught scum here.

Vote: zwets

So he's made Zwet was lining up a lynch for tomorrow in his eyes?....that was scummy and deserved a vote?

Why? Lining up a lynch for tomorrow, giving scum a surefire way to get me lynched

We're sure? Lining someone up is scummy?

Unvote

Vote: Zwet

Mainly about his "we should lynch Dust if he survives the night."

Alright, if we say so!!!

I intend to see Ace lynched tomorrow. He is scum.

This was written whilst voting Zwet.

Ace lied, twice. Lynch all liars. It really is that simple.

Ace has my vote, but zwet is my solid #2. hewitt is at #3.

We had a number of people (percy being the only one off wagon in my quoting) that felt Ace was more likely scum

Even Dej said so, even Mix - - you all lynched someone for something you were doing?

And then

@Mod - Can we get prods on Ash and Khamisa?

With only 5 game relevant posts, I must say, Hewitt, you're unusually quiet.

there are agreeably lurkers on the wagon.

Mix says nothing about a wagon with lurkers. He says nothing about Zwet - and I do mean that PLEASE read, everyone - - look bad from page 5 until now- not a PEEP about Zwet!

Here is his post before the L-1 came

Scumtells are not going to fall into your lap. I'm asking for your top three more for information purposes. If one of your top three flips the opposite way, I would like to see how interaction/non-interaction occurred between the two of you.

Also before I forget:

@Mod- I will be V/LA the 23rd and 24th. Expect little to no content.

this was him still talking to me trying to get a list of three (which not even he supplied) and trying to sell the Ace wagon to me.

Then the votes came and suddenly

L-1? We all agree zwet is scummy? I'll do it.

unvote

vote zwet

Oops. Mix didn't tell us his thoughts, contribute in any way, or even ACKNOWLEDGE this wagon....shit...this is going to seem opportunistic...

The vote was at 7:47 am.......okay. Better take care of this...

At 12:23pm

Zwet isn't going to contribute anything more than non-sensical one liners. Rolefishing for a counter-claim is about as good a D1 scumtell as we're going to get. I intend to see Ace lynched tomorrow. He is scum. However, now we won't have to shift through crap one-liners in the process. This was a good lynch.

If you feel different, please feel free to express why. Otherwise, I have nothing else to say on the matter.

He mentions evidence that has existed from page 1-5. He spent page 5-14 pushing the Ace wagon and being oblivious to the Zwet case - not even ACKNOWLEDGING it. And now he says he hopped over for reasons that could have put him on the wagon way earlier? Where he wouldn't be first on or early on the wagon?

He says he doesn't like being first or early....he was second on the Ace wagon...

He gave evidence hours after the hammer as to why he hopped over with as I've pointed and proven NO signals but OPPORTUNITY - - and those reasons existed since page 5! He's contradicted himself - - it does NOT MAKE SENSE

Does anyone else see why I've been so aggressive? It blows my mind when people don't acknowledge things like this.

The evidence could have had him 4th on the wagon as of page 5 - - - he had NOTHING to do with it until he hammered on 14!!! He was pushing the Ace case, he said he doesn't like being early yet he was number 2 on it - - -the wagon was dirty with lurkers and prejudice and people voted Zwet for plannign a lynch yet everyone was planning the D2 lynch of ACE!

THAT is why I'm all built up.

I can swallow my pride and say I was involved with my own scumhunting to have tried and reached out to ignorant lurkers that were constantly in need of clarifying and re-reading - - I can swallow my pride and say that I didn't see the lynch coming so fast - - those last three votes were all on the same HALF of a page - - and I can swallow my pride and say that in the excitement of Mix's obvious scum move, I was shovingthe case down throats and regarded anyone against it as dirty.

Now can anyone else swallow the same pride and finally acknowledge our town mistake, and try to do what I'm trying to do - - which is LEARN from it - - I'm not focusing on it for no reason, these aren't things that I could have done D1.
------------------
THAT is my case - THAT is my reasoning.

And if you all re-read, I did indeed protest to the reasoning of the Zwet case - primarily after Hewitt's vote.

I will not have Percy, who has equally lurked, try to throw that in my face.

Now PLEASE read it over, I know it's a headache with much repetition in between, but I promise it should be nothing short of illuminating of nothing less than my REASONING.

Much appreciated.

[AA23]

So to put a short version (doesn't do it justice, but if you're in a rush)

I find the wagon dirty, looking back.

I protested to the reasoning of Zwet's wagon after Hewitt voted D1

I find Mix scum.

He opportunistically voted Zwet when he was at L-1.
He did not speak to Zwet, he did not acknowledge the wagon in a SINGLE POST from page 5 - - all the way to 14 where he hammered him out of nowhere.
D2 - Mix says he did this because he doesn't like being on wagons early - hypocrite, he was on the Ace wagon second.

there were three people on the Zwet wagon as of page 5 - - all the evidence mentioned by everyone including Mix existed on page 5 - - logic shows, Mix should have gone over - he would be on the wagon later than second, no?

He contradicted himself in his defense saying he doesn't like being on wagons early, yet being second on another. He only lynched to kill and go into night (one or the other depending on his allignment) and it was clearly opportunistic as the Zwet case was never mentioned in a single post by him until the kill.

[AA23]

Percy - you showed the quotes of Zwet and the CC issue -

It does NOT look like he pushed it at ALL - Emp's only defense against a CC was "I just said not to" - - Even

I

wouldn't accept that, it was still a valid idea to bring up, it's natural for a CC to be questions in the event of a counerclaim - - Zwet ASKS what makes it a bad idea, Dej gives him a better answer than "i told you so" - and he DROPS it

You're only proving how OTHER PEOPLE blew it out of scope - it wasn't scummy.

----------
And you're reaching on the Dej comment -

I am basically telling him that he is prejudice and would have lynched Zwet no matter what, and the quote I presented supports that - - that's final, anything else is simply semantics and reaching, you can't know my line of thought, and if you misinterpret what I've written, consider this to be a clear up, pal!

You'd have to be pretty ignorant to read that quote and not find him prejudice.

Also, I doubt you've played with me enough to know that

I don't care if Zwet and/or Emp are lynched for poor reasons. They could be lynched for

nothing

for all I care, I'll lynch them both on policy.

I just

happened

to have a reason this time.

Just happening to have a reason this time?
Doesn't care if they're lynched for poor reasons?
Lynched for NOTHING for all he cares?

You're the one with a pretty bloated case, Percy - - I think you're trying to compensate for the lurking, and you're doing it with empty hands.

And
1.I'd like the post numbers of your quotes where Mix apparently addresses the Zwet case beyond thos tidbits - -
2.I would like to read them in context
3.And I'd like to read what else was in the quotes.

4.Also - your opinion on the hypocrisy of him not moving to the wagon earlier.

Here's proof that you're logic is near sighted at this time:

You completely ignored the fact that Mix didn't jump over earlier -- that he preferred his Ace case -- that he felt evidence that existed on page 5 was only worth believing as "the best we'll get for D1" until page 14!! after he spent the entire time hunting for the Ace lynch

He says he felt Zwet was the best lynch for D1 based on early as shit evidence, but didn't want to hop on the wagon first and early WHILE he was SECOND on his own wagon thus contradicting himself? And it took pg5-14 for him to show actual interest and vote? And it was only sparked by an L-1

That's opportunity, Percy.

While I appreciate you taking interest in this game and not lurking - I'm not sure how I feel about you ignoring things I pull up to be considered/evidence in exchange for things you can try to twist into incriminating me. - (for the record that constitutes lynch hunting - why don't you be a good little boy and wait to see if I do something scummy, like lynch opportunistically, lurk, etc)

[AA23]

Ace - you are suspect one for a lot of people based on a suspicious act.

Mix is someone I'm voting based on a scummy act.

I don't find you a priority to Mix in light of his behavior.

[AA23]

dej: Mind you

I've only seen him in one game as scum

, but he started it the same way.

Contradiction anyone?

zwet might not be the brightest crayon in the box, but I doubt he would purposefully link himself to his scum buddy. I'm liking Ace more as Mafia and zwet as Wolf at this point.

unvote

vote AceMarksman

FOS hewitt

I checked the conent of both of those posts you gave me.

The second one is directed to suspicions toward Ace - and primarily at that.

And the first is a response the was general and not persued or further expressed.

Page 5-14, Percy - - find me the evidence where Mix had a single care for that wagon.

He listed why he hammered, and every reason and line of thought existed on pg.5 - - why not investigate? why not switch over early? - - answer: he wasn't at L-1

Mix spent 5-14 pushing the Ace wagon. Prove otherwise or stop reaching.

[AA23]

unfortunately, Mix -

you're preaching to the converted.

How do you have the nerve to tell me to pick a side on the issue when you yourself picked your side D1 (between Zwet and Ace, you picked Ace and went FULL STEAM AHEAD) - to switching on a whim?

I did NOT say Ace is not scum, I am expressing why YOU are a priority to him.

Ace is most certainly someone I'm interested to investigate - - remember there are

5

villains - - not one.

Howevery - - if Ace flips villain (which is a good chance) you will use that as a shield to defend yourself, which is why it's important that you flip villain before he does.

There are 5 people to investigate and lynch - - you're priority one for me because I find you most scummy- Ace is priority number two because I find him most suspicious -

You're splitting hairs over whether I go from thinking Ace is scummy to just suspicious -- any evidence or questionable things on him aren't even in the same league as your scummy act with Zwet, Mix - you're not going to change my vote.

[AA23]

Mix-

In addition to your weak rebuttle an hypocrisy about picking sides (you being mr. out of the blue "flip flopper")

Can you defend ANY of the points against you?

Lets start with a simple one.

All the evidence that put you on the Zwet wagon for the hammer existed on page 5.

You spent 5-14 trying to lynch Ace, and didn't investigate Zwet at ALL.

You said you didn't switch over because you don't like starting a wagon, or being early on one.

On page 5--- where all the evidence that "convinced" you already existed, there was 3 people on Zwet's wagon.

You were the second person on Ace's.

This is hypocrisy. Please explain.

[AA23]

I don't like being on a wagon early, unless I am the one starting it.

Liar - - you didn't start the Ace wagon, you followed Percy - - and he shared the same reason, the lie.
---------------

Appeal to emotion? I'm incredulous to you - - do you even know what appealing to emotion IS? lol

Now, without mixing yourself up mix....

You didn't start the Zwet wagon OR the Ace wagon.

You were on the Ace wagon second, and the Zwet wagon LAST

You could have (with the evidence present) been on Zwet on page 5

You chose to ignore Zwet and persue Ace from 5-14

You hammered Zwet out of the blue.

Why? Why so early? Why did you lie about only being on wagons if you start them and not liking to be on them early when you were on a wagon second and could have been on Zwet from page 5 as the 4th person (which isn't early, is it?)

Explain yourself...

----------------------------

Khamisa - there is no case on Dej from me - to clarify

[AA23]

Dej - I'm not saying Ace is innocent, but his flipping villain WILL be a card for Mix to play - - what makes this a bad thing is Mix being a villain himself

In the post above your last from me to him - - you see no scum characteristics from him?

Once again - I have no case on you, but your refusal to be open minded to things makes me uneasy - if I'm missing something, help me out, but this case is far from opinionated.

Mix has lied, been hypocritical, opportunistic, and is failing to justify his actions

What say you?

[AA23]

Lied

about when he votes

opportunistically

hammered Zwet out of the blue and with no sign of investigation or interest in the case (over Ace's at the very least)

hypocritically

states who he intends to see lynched in future days (Ace D2, me D3) yet has no problem letting that be a point on Zwet's wagon when he said Dust would be lynched if he survived as a claimed seer

He's failing to defend himself - I request you please read the case

[AA23]

lol You're backtracking on your statement now?

So you're saying that you don't HAVE to be the one to start/finish a wagon, you can be on at any time?

Then WHY didn't you get on the Zwet wagon on Page 5 instead of go to Page 14 chasing an Ace lynch? lol

Please enlighten me.
----------------------------------

And 440 doesn't have questions toward me - - you're also attempting to have me turn on other people for reasons you say I should - - I'm voting the person I think is scummy, and will not give in to your attempts to distract.

I've asked you a serious question, Mix - one that determines you as scum or town - - why would you choose to beat around the bush with it and distract me with your rants in 440 instead of just answer?.....scummy....

Just let us know why you had nothing to do with the Zwet wagon/Investigation until you hammered him.

You said it was because you don't like wagons you don't start/early on - - and that was proven to be a

lie

so you split hairs on the wording and kindly ask if "like" is concrete. - - so now that you've diffused your lying attempt to save your self...

WHY then, did you not get on the wagon on pg5 where all your reasons existed? WHY did you not investigate him at the very least? WHY did you practically ignore Zwet until he was a vote away from death?

Well, Mix?

[AA23]

Above is to mix*

[AA23]

Your first statement - - I've made it clear that I protested against the reasoning of Zwet's wagon after Hewitt's vote on D1 - - please read.

I also stated that my drive is LEARNING from YOUR mistake - - Would you prefer I pretend a towny didn't die, and ignore the wagon? Is that the alternative, or will you just let it be?

------------
Alright - you want to ignore the Mix case - - there are a number of people who care

[AA23]

I don't want a man on my wagon who will admittedly lynch someone for no reason.

My case on Mix has plenty of those, and will get votes.

[AA23]

Rolefishing for a counter-claim is about as good a D1 scumtell as we're going to get

. I intend to see Ace lynched tomorrow. He is scum.

He makes a statement that someone IS scum, yet gives an out of the blue vote to someone SUSPECTED of being scum (and not even by him for the last how many pages)

The above reaosning was on page 5 - - this is page 14
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why didn't you go on the wagon sooner, Mix? Why would you say practically NOTHING to Zwet, not investigate him or anything, and hammer him for something you could have done earlier?

So here was my thought process on switching my vote.

zwet's playstyle is null. Let me say that up front. However, if you read him over, can't mention specifics as some of the games are currently ongoing, there is a very distinct difference between scumzwet and townzwet.

Actually after re-reading both zwet and Ace in isolation I'm more interested in Ace.......

zwet might not be the brightest crayon in the box, but I doubt he would purposefully link himself to his scum buddy. I'm liking Ace more as Mafia and zwet as Wolf at this point.

unvote

vote AceMarksman

FOS hewitt

Doesn't sound so "Null" anymore...pretty interesting how you like to flip flop

That was also after page 5 - when he could have voted Zwet, but prefers Ace

I don't like being on a wagon early, unless I am the one starting it.

That's a lie, you didn't start the Ace wagon and you were second on it - - two contradictions.

Since when is -like- an absolute term?

Wow, splitting hairs....

Then WHY? You're either lying, or you don't have an answer lol

if I am lynched today, will be my downfall.

Not the town's downfall? Yours? Are you seperate from us?

------------------------------------------------------

To make it clear so you stop asking me - - - I am primarily interested in YOU. There are 4 other villains in this game, ANY scum can argue "wah wah, why are you after me and not THEM" - - dude, if you have a case on anyone, present it and lay it out - do what I'm doing.

WHY didn't you investigate Zwet? Why didn't you go on the wagon earlier? It's the million dollar question and you're dancing around it lol

[AA23]

The people you are accusing me of dirtly hoping behind,

Ash and hewitt, are now shamelessly hoping on behind you. What do you make of that?

Anyone can vote for any reason - - If there's a case on them, go ahead and persue it - I'm voting you for my case, good sir.

Also, re-reading you AA, it should said that speaking in absolutes like you are concerning me actually implicate you.

Saying that someone is 100% scum when you are not an investigative role implies that you have knowledge that the rest of us don't. Saying that implies that you are scum. Are you scum?

Ace is scum so bad it hurts.

I intend to see Ace lynched tomorrow. He is scum.

lol.....OUCH.....
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Now please - Answer the question. Or are you indeed guilty and can't think of a new answer? DO let this answer be "absolute" will you, friend?

[AA23]

Percy - you deminish your statements about my case, when you end your post with "Meh, Zwet was going to be lynched - why not hammer" - -

It's that very ignorance that calls for repetition.
----------------------
Ace getting lynched before Mix gives him a card to play - - the iron will no longer be hot, and just because Ace is worth investigating, doesn't mean Mix is innoccent - - your argument suggests I should stop trying to lynch suspected scum (like Mix) because there are 4 other people worth lynching as WELL.
-----------------------
Please read.

I protested the reasons for the Zwet wagon after Hewitt voted.
-----------------------

[AA23]

I'm not the only one voting Mix, Dej.

And what I'm saying is exactly that - - You two are pointing at the fact that there are 5 villains in total - - does that mean I should ignore the

1

I'm looking at now?

lol you guys are laughable - - "AA, don't go after Mix jsut because you think he's scum and he's poorly defending himself, go after some OTHER possible scum!"

------------------------------
And can you guys put up a quote where Mix answered why he hopped without warning or showing any care for the wagon? Because the only answer he gave turned out to be a lie, and post 461 doesn't make him look too hot....

He was online for 6 hours until almost midnight after post 461.....funny how he couldn't give an explanation - - Then again he could have been embarrassed (I would understand)

I definately built the case and wagon on this one, but I'm no leader of sorts - - I can firmly say my stance won't change - -

[AA23]

In all fairness, he suggested time was a factor when typing it.

@Thesp -
The hammer on Dust was not pressed for time, no.

I understand suspicion on me after the back and forth with Dej - - but I note to everyone that while a lot of evidence can support me being an over confident ass, it doesn't make me wrong or inaccurate in my case making - - I'd appreciate any scum accusations upon me to be based on scum acts (for instance, I didn't point a scum finger at Dej after the head a tete because though there was hostility, it is only a difference of opinion - - he wants Ace lynched because he believes him to be scum, and I want Mix lynched because I believe him to be scum. If we are fortunate, he and I are both correct in our persuits - however, Mix is a priority based on his bahavior end of D1 and poor defense D2 - he has yet to clarify his actions, and nobody seems to have a problem that his first attempt was a lie that he backtracked on)


Welcome to the party (Die Hard, anyone?)
--------------------------------

Vote Count

Mixologist 3 - AA23, AshMC1984, hewitt
AceMarksman 3 - Mixologist, Percy, dejkha
AA23 1 - Empking

[AA23]

Ace doesn't have enough attention?

You answered my question?

I don't like being on a wagon early, unless I am the one starting it.

This was your defense for why you weren't scummy. Time passed, and I realized he was

lying

on

two

counts - - he hadn't started the Ace wagon he was on, and he was as early as the second person on it!

his response to being caught in a lie:

Since when is -like- an absolute term?

Are we not defending ourselves fully, or something?

Can we finally get an absolute answer from you, Mix?

Answer the bold, man - - The harder you make it to justify the actions I call boldly scummy, the more scummy they look - -

Mix ran away from answering us after he was caught being wildly desperate and hypocritical again:

Also, re-reading you AA, it should said that speaking in absolutes like you are concerning me actually implicate you.

Saying that someone is 100% scum when you are not an investigative role implies that you have knowledge that the rest of us don't. Saying that implies that you are scum. Are you scum?

Ace is scum so bad it hurts.

I intend to see Ace lynched tomorrow. He is scum.

lol.....OUCH.....

-----------------------------------------------------------------

And as for more hypocrisy.

Mix - - why did you write this on the previous page?

Look back at the end of D1. Ace, again, was under -zero- pressure as everyone was focusing in on zwet. Percy and I, again, were the only ones voting him.

You left the Ace wagon for a juicy quick kill on Zwet!!!!!!!
And you can't explain it because your first attempt was a lie that you backtracked out of, then you got caught looking silly and hypocritical, avoided giving a simple answer in this game whilst still finding time to post on other games for hours and are now pointing to another player instead of casually clearing yourself.

Should we all give Ace the attention you did D1? - - should we all believe him to be 100% scum until we hammer a conviently wagoned player in the corner of our eyes?

Why are you playing both sides of the fence?

Why jump ship from the Ace wagon to Zwet with

NO

warning, no interest in his case, no investigation during his wagon, no questions while he was alive and suspected,

NOTHING

- - why flop over? to kill him? Because THAT is scummy - - and if it wasn't to kill him, Mix

WHY

- - This is the answer that should clear you, why are you taking so long?


There are two questions in bold - answer please

---------------------
And final note:

Look back at the end of D1. Ace, again, was under -zero- pressure as everyone was focusing in on zwet. Percy and I, again, were the only ones voting him.

then, while hopping off the Ace wagon and hammering a towny he never investigated

I intend to see Ace lynched tomorrow. He is scum.

Hey flip flopper - - you now have NO say in whether we try to lynch someone ELSE while thinking Ace is scum and worth putting off for another day. - you hypocrite......

I suspect you're scum - you're going to be lynched.

lol "percy and I were the only ones voting him at the end of D1" lol lol....actually, percy was, I believe you were voting someone you didn't care for the entire wagon until it was convenient to kill him

[AA23]

and hey, friend lol

I like how there is still -zero- pressure on someone who is flat out ignoring this game.

Is "like" a concrete term here, or do you really not mind about the whole pressure, deal? lol

[AA23]

He is referring to Ace.

[AA23]

Post 324 and on

Isn't he saying that he would lynch Dust if the scum didn't NK him? Which would suggest Dust is scum and make perfect sense?

........[F]or making a statement that all of us are more or less on the same page with (the idea that Dust not being NK'd as very suspicious)

Dust it occured to me that leaving you alive would be a tacic, however, you would have results from an investigation, no?

If you were alive tomorrow, and told us wo your investigation turned up scum/town - - I believe that after lynching you, it would not only prove the true identity of who you had a night read on, but we can link their allies and other villains based on the info

(to specify - - Day 2, Dust says "X" is town/scum - - Dust is lynched and flips either way thus informing us of the likely role of "X" - - we kill off "X" and see who interacted with him and how.

It's too risky for the villans to keep you alive, and I'm afraid to big a leap for us not to lynch you if you're alive tomorrow.

Circumstances are always unique though, so we will see how things unfold.

As you see, the final 4 votes on the wagon picked up and revolved around "Zwet planning a lynch" - because he said he would want Dust lynched D2 if he survived.

FIRST OF ALL - - Bloody hypocritical seeing as all of you were lynching Zwet and saying that "Ace is tomorrow" "Ace is scum".

SECOND OF ALL - - almost ALL of my posts, the MOMENT Hewitt voted, I was defending the illegitimacy of that point you all hopped on the wagon for.


Percy? - - Just because you say it's bullshit doesn't mean it is - - try reading - I wasn't lying. I most certainly did NOT agree with the wagon point of the "planning lynch" that the final four voters hopped on for
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're also trying to divert my case on Mix - - What I think on any other player is irrelevent because I feel the MOST sure about priority one, Mix - - he's MY priority - -

If my attention is drawn to another player, it will be for a strong scummy act, not you pointing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
You think the case is poorly presented?

This is why I keep repeating myself, his DEFENSE is poor.

"Mix! You just hammered someone who turned up town"

"Yeah, I hammered him, I thought he was scum"

"You didn't investigate him a SINGLE TIME - you didn't Question him about ANY of the points!"

"Yeah, I know - but several, several, hours after the hammer, I posted a paragraph with all my reasons for lynching him"

"All of those reasons existed on page 5....you spent page 5 to 14 strongly, very strongly, trying to lynch Ace - - you in fact lynched Zwet while SAYING Ace was scum....you in fact on D2, exclaimed how you and Percy were the only poor souls voting Ace at the end of D1...as though you didn't jump ship"

"Yeah, but Zwet turned out to be scummier"

"How? You literally lynched him while saying the ACE was scum!"

"I posted all my reasons."

"Ugh. YES, I KNOW - but those reasons existed on pg. 5 - why not switch then? Why switch after pages and pages, and efforts, and efforts against Ace later?...Because there were more votes on him?"

"I don't like getting on any wagons early unless I start them."

**Silence for a bit***

"Dude, I looked back for the hell of it, and Mix, you didn't start the Ace wagon you were on so passionately - in fact, you didn't start it, and you were second"

"So?"

"Well on page 5...many, many pages before your Ace rants and out of the blue hammer, all of the evidence that convinced you existed AND there was already three people on the wagon...so the evidence was there, and you wouldn't have been early on the wagon. So that answer you gave me, to prove you're not scum? It doesn't um...entirely work out, man."

**Silence**

"...Who said "like" was a concrete term?"

".....Seriously?"

"Heh..."

"You can't be serio-"

"Oh indeed I am."

"Well...then why would you say it? And furthermore - - What's the new reason that you opportunistically hammered a man you never investigated or suspected more than Ace"

Pay close attention to that last statement. He hammered Zwet and STILL made

1. A statement that Ace would be lynched D2 (hypocritically saying something to the effect that Zwet was being lynched for)
2. Made sure statements that he felt Ace was scum

A man hammered someone he didn't investigate, over the person he said was scum.

Also - -
Why hasn't he given another reason?
Why does he HAVE to - wouldn't you want to give the honest, "clearing up" answer FIRST? Who on earth gives a "not concrete" answer (I'm pointing out that he was caught in a lie and backtracked)
Why say you don't like being on wagons early - and not investigate? Surely you can still INVESTIGATE - which he didn't do.

These are all red flags that he hasn't cleared up - - he, and either ignorant/scumbuddy/people who truly can't or don't care - whichever they are, don't WANT a defense from Mix, they would rather a better offense on Ace.

There are too many red flags that you're all ignoring/don't care about - and it's pretty disappointing

[AA23]

Saying "you're trying to make me stop scumhunting Mix" doesn't make it true. If you actually read my posts, you'll notice that I say or suggest nothing of the sort.

My argument is that your case is bad, overblown, and potentially scummy. I also don't see how anyone could defend Ace, or come to any conclusion other than the one I hold - he is obvious, obvious scum.

It's a difference of opinion. And you ARE trying to pull me off the Mix case, man lol - - you're just doing it by ignoring and bashing mine instead of making yours stronger.

Try answering some of the questions I'm asking Mix - - they're answers that should exist for all those that hammer and vote -

WHY

I have looked at the Mix posts and have come to a contrary opinion to the one you hold, so I will remain unconvinced if your "proof" of his scumminess comes from his Day 1 play.....

I concede that Mix's lack of justification is poor, but it's not a smoking gun.

The man's justification points to "opportunity" which is scummy, Percy - - I know you're attached to your Ace case, I'm not saying the guy is in the clear, I'm saying that we have a tighter case on Mix.

FOR EXAMPLE

We all know exactly what kind of heat comes from a hammer (legitimate or not) that person, if a towny flips, is always asked for their motives (often enough, it checks out, or everyone is on board)

If he can't defend why he did it (give us any towny reasons) - - then the latter IS scum, Percy - - nobody does something as bold as a hammer for NO reason, you see?

The unfortunate problem you might be facing is you're thinking that reasoning is "Towny reason / no reason at all"

When in reality it's "Towny Reason / No reason at all / Scum"

With the kind of attention that a hammer brings, are you truly going to admit that the lack of defense makes Mix fall to a man who hammered for No reason? - - I tell you it's scum.

It's a difference of opinions Percy.

Convince me with a case, convince me with an investigation on your suspect, maybe he'll uncover himself as scummy the same way that Mix has for me and the other voters

In the end - - I don't appreciate the bashing of my case - - if you have evidence clearing him, show it or shut it - -

stick to yours, I'll stick to mine. (priorities)

[AA23]

EBWOP My post should end at "stick to yours, I'll stick to mine. (priorities)

It does...

[AA23]

And you're saying I can talk about Mix AND Ace.

Until I can lynch more than one person, I'm going to work with one person.

I'll worry about Ace when he worries me (as in when he does something scummy/scummier than mix - - you're all pointing)

QUESTION
I've proven that the reasoning Mix hammered (that he posted hours afterward) all existed on page 5 way before - meaning it is safe to say that those were not the reasons for the hammer because everything that would have convinced him, DIDN'T (proven by reading from Page 5-14 where he doesn't investigate Zwet and primarily works on the Ace case)
That being said - - Why did he hammer? (I say it was scummy and opportunistic)

For anyone not on the wagon - Why did he hammer if not opportunity? Do you not care?

Mix - Why did you hammer? All the reasons are out the window because you didn't care for them pages and pages before your Ace rants - - you said you don't like early wagons and backtracked a LIE - - so since that didn't work out

WHAT - IS - YOUR - ANSWER

DUDE - It's honest to God going to clear you of THOSE suspicions, I'll be off your back - - why are you reluctant?

Why did you not give the "

real

" answer first? If it wasn't a lie....why not "concrete" - - it's very scummy of you.

Mix - This is your time to answer, big guy - - nobody else seems to care if you hammered to be scummy and opportunistic

[AA23]

I am not ignoring your case. I am bashing your case, but that's because it deserves bashing.

Try scumhunting and stop bashing me for a case you admit EXISTS - - My case is based on the very points you ADMIT exist - that's a little hypocritical and narrowminded, no? I mean, hell, I'm not bashing your Ace case and I in no way have suggested he is innocent

I know his motivation was, essentially, opportunity

. As I said before, I can see town-Mix

taking advantage of that opportunity to get the day over

, get a scummy player out of the way, and clear up the Dust business and start afresh. I don't think an opportunistic lynch is necessarily a scummy one. Sorry, I just don't.

You're right to point out that

Mix needs to give his reasons

, but he's already answered the questions you've posed.[/b]

Does anyone in this town ALSO

finally

acknowledge that Mix lynched opportunistically? - And if so, are you all honestly going to bash my case and call me scum for preferring him to Ace?

You all have to remember that an opportunity lynch dressed up as a calculated one is scummy.

@Percy
Why would his opportunity lynch be towny if he fought so hard to say it wasn't?
What question did he answer? I asked for his reasons, and you admit he hasn't given me them - I REALL want them



@Dej
Not ONCE have I put Ace in the clear or suggested he hasn't been in need of investigating - - I find it

incredibly scummy

of you to try and attach me to his potential guilt by saying I'm his scumbuddy and am trying to avoid his lynch - It's cheap and sleazy

I found Ace's comment sarcastic and smug seeing as he's posted in other games during the time that he said he would read this one yet forgot about it completely - - However, that does NOT (now read slowly, Dej)

NOT

outway somebody lynching opportunistically and desperately trying to prove it wasn't - - going so far as to LIE about why it wasn't - - getting CAUGHT in the lie and backtracking before LURKING - - Where's Mix, now?

I feel he lynched opportunistically
Lied about his reasons
Got caught in the lie and backtracked
Is lurking (presently)

Enough has happened for him to respond to.

[AA23]

Lynching opportunistically

Why fight so hard to lie about why?

And Percy - - Mix has suggested not having many games under his belt at present. Exactly how is it that you feel confident in his meta?

[AA23]

Actually, you and Ace are the most likely pair we have.

What have I done that was scummy? I've been scumhunting and for good reason - I choose not to ignore opportunity lynches in a game with FIVE villains and two dead townies

Quote me on where i said it did.

Are you being a jerk, or are you being serious?

There is no quote where you say that Ace's case does NOT outway Mix's - but you are

aware

that your above statement is playing both sides, right? How can you agree my case holds more weight than Ace's, while at the same time condemn me for working with Mix's?

I'm fully prepared to investigate Ace after Mix is taken care of - - Mix is the one with the scummiest record in this game.

I feel he lynched opportunistically
Lied about his reasons
Got caught in the lie and backtracked
Is lurking (presently)

Enough has happened for him to respond to.

That sounds almost like the Ace case, only Ace's case consist nothing but him continually lying from the start. So that means Mix has some wiggle room to flip town... not really any Ace though.[/quote]

Actually, it's reverse.

@Dej -
Please give quotation for your statements. See, I went a long time on D1 (before looking back) believing that Zwet had fought and fished for the CC (until I realized he hadn't, and it was just you stating that he did)

Now I'm hearing that Ace didn't lie just about the Dust meta - - he has aparently lied MULTIPLE times, and from the beginning of the game -
Can you please elaborate on that?

Anyhow - -
If you agree they are the same, except "Ace has been lying from the start" - technically, Ace has more wiggle room to be town.

He hasn't been present, and none of his lies have hurt the town (as much as a scummy hammer) - - The act of lying is indeed something one can regard as scummy - but would you really regard it as more weight in a game with five villains and two dead townies where somebody opportunistically lynched?
------------------------

Ace - Lied, and lurked

Mix - Opportunistically lynched, lied about his reasons why, backtracked the lie, lurked

****I appreciate you and Percy finally acknowledging the opportunistic hammer - I don't mean that sarcastically - I thought I was going mental and you weren't seeing it****

[AA23]

Lynching opportunistically

Why fight so hard to lie about why?

Lying for a quick lynch

Why not lynch him for it right away?

He did lynch him right away - he hammered and then put the reasons up hours after.

Those reasons turned out to be false as he would have been convinced on page 5 when they were all brought up.

So he lied AGAIN and said he didn't like being on wagons early unless he started them

That turned out to be a lie and he backtracked - - he has since lurked and has not answered AGAIN (weird how a towny needs to manufacture multiple reasons on why he's innocent eh?)

Also - - before he lurked - he didn't look too hot as a hypocrite - - I proved that in an earlier post where he said I was scummy for sounding sure about scum and then I quoted him making passionate sure statements lol that one was funny

[AA23]

What have I done that was scummy?

There's two scum groups, so you can be scum and still be scumhunting. Check 396 for my reasons on why you're scum.

396 is you bitching about being misrepresented - - That's a very easy thing to do when you post like a nutbar - - like below

You made that STUPID comment of "Quote me where I said that" in regards to Mix/Ace case being stronger - - Why waste my time with shit like that when you KNOW you made your decision on what case you thought was stronger? TO CONFUSE

There is no quote where you say that Ace's case does NOT outway Mix's -

Then don't imply that I said it, silly.....

I'm not condemning you for working with Mix's case,

but I don;t see how Mix's case is bigger than Ace's

, so if you or Ace flips scum, I'll be sure the other is as well.

In the bold there - - try making a decision on something before you cry "misrep" or whine some more - - you either think my case is stronger, or you don't - - there's your decision and I DO hope you don't flip flop again.

Assuming you want quotes to support this, Percy explained it perfectly in 496 as to how he was continually lying and misleading town.

Actually, if you bothered reading - - he pointed out one lie, and a lot of lurking.

Besides - - in a reread, it's still THIN - we don't have access to the offsite meta - something that thin holds no candle to opportunistic lynching

Mix

hammered

,

then

lied

and only seems to be

lurking

at this moment.

Dej and Percy agree that the points of my case EXIST but do not want to be on it for their own reasons (that's their choice)

I just want it to be known that my agreed points of

The Dirty Hammer
The lies
The lurking
The hypocrisy (which I proved in an earlier post)

All exist - - -

Dej is saying I'm scum because I'm not on the Ace wagon - - aside form him being a pouting child about it, I have (ADMITTEDLY!!! BLOODY ADMITTEDLY!!!) a reason to be on the Mix case, yet he is branding me as SCUM for not being on it?

"Join my wagon or else you're scum with them!!" - - what is that crap?

I am SCUMHUNTING - - I am scumhunting someone on evidence everyone AGREES is there - - I have NOT said Ace is innocent, I've said Mix is guilty!

I think it's wildly childish and cheap to connect me to the guilt of another player while I'm doing my job

You all have SAID - - SAID the damn evidence exists, and you don't want to be on the wagon - - weird, but sure, free country

I won't tell you to be on it or else

Just STOP bashing my wagon - - - the evidence exists, you admit it, there is NO POINT to bash it!

Just work on your own case and stop harassing me - - do you guys honestly have nothing better to do with your case on Ace, or are you going to continue to yell and cry

"AA23!! HAHAH! You're so stupid to be on a wagon with all that evidence"

Like Jesus Murphy you guys are narrow minded -

Call me scum if I do something scummy
Call my wagon weak if it has no evidence
SCUMHUNT the person you all say is SCUM for crying out loud

But don't waste my time and admit my points are present while telling me to get off my wagon

[AA23]

Dej. I'm sorry for the name calling.

If anyone is going to challenge whether I have a forest, don't point at my trees.

It's unintelligent.

[AA23]

My hands are clean from this - - Dej, I welcome any votes you'd like to throw my way - your logic and poor game play will only prove me the victor (I wasn't wrong in saying I will always beat you at this game - you're never right about my allignment, are you? lol)
---------------------------------------
I have my case.

It is not made from nothing and is worth my time.

People are on the wagon as well and share this sentiment.

---------------------------------------

That's my final thought.

If anyone has a better case, lay it out. Otherwise, leave me and my case be

[AA23]

Great scumhunting, Dej lmfao.....


@Thesp - - thoughts on my presented case that people are voting in favor of given the evidence that exists AND people are NOT voting of....while still acknowledging the evidence that exists. Where does your vote lie, and if it doesn't lie on the two given cases, do you have one of your own.

@Khamisa - - Given what's presented, does the Mix wagon earn your vote? Does the case make sense and show Mix for scum?

[AA23]

Percy - he said that he believed Zwet would flip scum, and I'm saying that the reason it's scummy opportunity is that he DIDN'T believe he would flip scum - -

He listed his reasons for thinking him scum - - those existed on 5 and didn't convince him

He said he didn't like early.....(repetition)

I think you got accidentally criss crossed there - - you think he answered my major question of "Why did you lynch" when really he hasn't - - saying "I thought he was scum" isn't good enough, when he in fact proved from 5-14 he did NOT think he was scum for ANY of the listed reasons.
----------------------

And I'm not ignorant to other cases - if you please read even slower, I'm saying that I am PRIORITIZING Mix.

Mod - please prod Mix -

He seems to have scurried off without defending any of the valid points, or proving that he indeed hammered Zwet not out of scum opportunity, but because he truly felt he would flip scum (in which case, he would have to finally give the evidence and reasons for thinking he's scum, because all the existing ones were completely disregarded by him for many, many, many pages where he only cared about the Ace case)

**Khamisa and Thesp - - what are your thoughts please

[AA23]

@Dej - - No, notscumhunt other people as well, you guys have an attitude that suggest I should scumhunt someone else INSTEAD. - I'm happy with my wagon


** There's a lot a talk about investigating multiple people, talking to all, etc - - why am I the only person being spoken to? You guys aren't even trying to talk to the person on YOUR wagon let alone another (since we all aparently need to juggle multiple suspects on a day that only lets you lynch ONE)

I'm staying put on my vote - move along, boys

At the end of the day, it's a difference of opinion - I have no problem with you staying on your wagon, and you guys have acknowledged I have evidence.

Any further harrassment just seems wildly suspicious to me, I'm doing my job lol

[AA23]

Mod prod Khamisa

[AA23]

And just for everybody's reference, here is a summary of AA's shifting attitudes towards Ace, mainly plagiarised from Mix's 440:

These are in the exact order you presented them - it seems you need clarification:

Ace lies about a meta to put a vote down and gets caught/suspected of it later - - this could make him a villain and the reasons for lying suggest Dust being a villain of the opposite variety to him.

He interprets it as a lie, and says it

might

make him a villain.

Then:

I based the first part of what you quoted me on from you and Dej saying he lied - - in between that and me realizing it was semantics, I read back to his statement - - it's purely hyperbole hat can be exploited as a scumtell - I'm not lynching someone for that.

On his re-read, he rejects it as "purely hyperbole", and not worth a lynch.

What was wrong with that? I re-read it and found it not worth a LYNCH - also meaning not worth a VOTE - - it's not illogical in the least bit. I felt it wasn't a lie so much as hyperbole

And after more activity:

FoS:Ace
For using hyperbole to strengthen a vote against Dust and opportunistically distancing yourself to take it off.

I sent an FoS his way- - it seemed that the hyperbole could have been

intentional

- which is manipulative and suspicious.

Once again - for all those catching up - NOT worth a vote, NOT worth a lynch...as I consistently prove above with an FoS - - no flip flopping.

Later, Zwet gets lynched and somebody said a good reason is for lynching him was the he "believed Ace's lie" - -

this seemed illogical to me. If you believe someone has told a lie, why would you vote the person who believed it (Zwet)? Would it not make more sense to go for the person you think maliciously lied? So I asked:

Why go for a guy that believed something, instead of the person who was caught in a LIE...

And believe it or not - that question wasn't even answered (rather disappointing)

But I maintained

Ace is most certainly someone I'm interested to investigate
...
[Mix is] priority one for me because I find [him] most scummy- Ace is priority number two because I find him most suspicious -

staying true to what I said - when I put an FoS his way - I find him suspicious.

@AA: If Mix is lynched today, will you pursue Ace tomorrow? On what grounds? How do you feel about the case now?

D3 I will be investigating Ace - not putting a wagon his way, or a vote - investigating.

----------------------------

So Percy - the inflation seems to be your opinion on me - - you're making me feel like I'm scum for not being on your wagon.

You know why I'm voting - - It's for valid reasons - - there's nothing scummy about that.

If you're going to present me with something, let it be a little more forwarding, otherwise we'll all end up bickering.

[AA23]

I'm trying to lynch a person I think is scum - - to say I'm not giving ENOUGH attention to another suspicious person, or talking enough to other people is going to clutter the whole process - -

has it not occured to you that there are 4 other villains aside from the ones each of us are trying to lynch? The very reason you're trying to lynch Ace is because you're confident it is the right choice, but what of the other villains? Are you "buying them time"? Are you "taking the heat off of them"? - - no - you're trying to eliminate their numbers - - that's why I'm doing - working to lynch Mix, someone I believe is scum

Someone I have presented the case to, clearly, and asked a single simple question to that he lied in response to twice before lurking - - lurking, lurking, lurking.

I can't lynch all five today, so I need to work on the one - just leave me be unless it's bloody intelligent/substantial that can prove innocence/guilt of any player - - otherwise you're all just going to wind up harrassing me and we'll all bicker and get nowhere

[AA23]

You know why I'm voting - - It's for valid reasons - - there's nothing scummy about that.

By that logic, there wasn't anything scummy about my vote on Zwet, which you claimed it to be.

I feel that your bias, prejudice, and negative nature is bad for any lynch - -

Just as a homicide detective looks for how something can be homicide, and an arson detective: arson - I believe that when someone says they would lynch somebody for NOTHING - that ANY reason will suit them

That's all - - I just don't think you truly believed him to be scum, I think you found reasons that fit to lynch him.

[AA23]

I write in stream of consciousness.

[AA23]

He seems to be tunneling in on one person to the exclusion of others in a game with 5 scum

, which is not only unhelpful, but allows him to jump from target to target day to day without having to account much for previous days beyond saying "my bad" if he's wrong.

I will not expand on who the 'others' are at this time.

(I probably shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place.)

This is hypocritical to me - -

ONE person can be lynched today - and I'm most confident in ONE person - - There's nothing tangable for me to work with at this point. I have suspicions on Ace, but better scum reads on Mix

If I find them both not to be innocent, how am I trying to protect Ace? - It seems slightly unfair that I'm being tied to his potential guilt by people bitching about me not supporting them killing him - - The "Ace/AA23 combo" - - can I please get some evidence backing that?

In addition to that - you seemed to have missed post 536 where I addressed the inflated statements about my Ace position.

How do you go from saying I'm a guy on a decent case with a curse of poor play to suggesting I'm scum with a person you're not voting for?

How do you justify finding it negative that I focus on one person (in a gamer where we can only LYNCH

one

bloody person a day) to making a statement about not wanting to mention other people yourself?

There are two people in question with cases on them - Ace and Mix - - It is only natural with one lynch a day that we have to pick one, yes? - - I've done what everyone has - I've picked my one and continue to suspect the other - It seems like you're all taking advantage of me in a lose/lose situation

If I were voting someone for weak reasons, that's understandable (note Emp voting me when the only two tangable cases are Ace/Mix) but I'm not - I'm voting a justified case

I think it's unintelligent, ignorant, foolish, dirty, and childish to attach me to the potential guilt of someone just because I'm not walking in line with you (Ace wagoners)

[AA23]

To repeat - -

There are only two people with cases on them - - I have nothing to go on for anyone else, I'm not excluding anybody, I'm presented with "Ace, or Mix" - and I have made my choice and expressed interest in investigating the other for D3 - it's not excluding

2 people to work with - - anything else would be irresponsibly manufacturing a case on somebody - - nobody else has had any scumtells jump out at me - - hence TWO people to choose from - - I've made my SINGLE decision, the ONLY power I have is to pick ONE person to lynch a day, hence ONE person - it is not singling out.

[AA23]

They describe the act more so than the person.

I find Mix scum, Ace suspicious, I think Emp is actively lurking but his meta suggests nothing out of the norm, and am unsure about the rest (all the while uncomfortable with Dej's confrontational behavior) - - That's all.

And Thesp, I not only have a good case, but I also have Mix's poor defense.

You will notice the rate of activity he had up until his wagon - he would even notify when he was V/LA - -

He hammered - then he waited a few hours and gave his reasons - those proved to be a lie, so when I asked further, he said he didn't like being on wagons early wihtout starting them - that proved to be a lie as well (lie number 2) - he has yet to tell answer for the hammer.

He lied twice, was hypocritical, and now he is genuinely lurking. He has been prodded, he gave no V/LA or req. for replacement that we know of - he's uncharacteristically lurking - I feel it's because he's caught.

So Thesp, I am not only satisfied with the case, I am satisfied with his lack of a defense.
--------------------------------------------------------

On the Ace matter - - I prioritize Mix - - I feel that both Mix and Ace could get lynched, but faith will be lost in the Mix case is Ace is first (does that make sense?) -

I respect both the cases we have going right now, and I in no way am bashing the Ace case - I just want to see this one through before I contribute to it - - otherwise, would I not come across as hypocritical if I laid out reasons and thoughts on why Ace should be lynched all the while wanting Mix out?

I'm not being sarcastic - genuinely asking

[AA23]

Again you are misrepresenting my arguments.

"I can only lynch one person, so I've picked one person and made my decision. That's not singling anyone out".

The "Ace/AA23 combo" - - can I please get some evidence backing that?

Read my posts, ffs.

Just read that again, slowly. Perhaps your reason will catch up with your stream of consciousness and reveal to you how absurd this statement is.[

Remember all those posts where you were begging, screaming and yelling to be heard about the Mix case?

I've been asked to sharpen my gameplay to be less arrogant - - I'll ask that you don't go into a mean rant like that again - you were nothing short of nasty toward me in that post Percy.

And hypocritical.

You say I misrep. you and you seem to have confused misrepresenting with

misunderstanding

- - however, you only use the one word because it makes me seem scummier. - - you paraphrased me incorrectly - - are you misunderstanding or misrepresenting me?

You aren't looking at the rest of the game. You keep reminding us that there are other villains out there - so why concentrate on one potential villain?

I'm not - I'm VOTING for one and am cognizant of two - - nobody else has given any major scum reads - - this isn't complicated.

At the end of your post you listed your scum reads.

You seperated two from the rest. - why? I'd like to see if it's for the same reason I did and finally clear this idea you can't seem to grasp about me.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two people have demonstrated scum qualities - Ace and Mix - everyone else is neutral to me with nothing more than suspicions void of much evidence

2 people.

I've worked on one case - and have maintained the other person is suspicious and worth investigating.

I've done nothing more or less than any of you. We all have a vote, we all have people we would like to investigate D3 - - What exactly is it I'm being accused of?

It seems that in the desperation to get more votes on the Ace case - I am being tarred and feathered and called scum when all I'm doing is scum hunting - - it's cheap and lousy.

In regards to the Ace matter

I have done no flip flopping.

I read conversations where everyone said he had lied, I even discussed - but upon a re-read it struck me as hyperbole, and the idea of it being intentional was susicious and mailicious to me - - he earned and FoS from me.

Nothing has changed. Not a single thing. I have in no way said he was innocent. I have in no way gone back on my proclaimed suspicion and voted him further. He has remained what I said he was to me VERY early in this game.

That being said.

-Ace suggested he played multiple games with Dust where his scum meta matched the present game
-It was learned only one of these games was on MS and was inconsistent
-The off-site games hold the truth that we still don't know. Was it accidentally hyperbole and there was something off-site?
-Was he using the off-site to his advantage and maliciously lying?
-

It is a variable

- - a variable that is SUSPICIOUS, but until proven false, is not a SCUMTELL. Hence I found him suspicious
-His lurking and attitude in the gameplay doesn't fit his meta in the game I played with him where he was town - - however Dej has earlier suggested to me that one game is not enough to know somebody well enough, so that is a null tell.
- I felt that his "I forgot about this game" comment was a hannibal lecter style gloating, smug smirking poke in of "having fun?" - - we all play this game, and we all know that you don't post in other active games and forget about one that is far from a lull and rvs
- Very suspicious, but could be a bias mentality on me part because I've been suspicious of him.

Mix did something that logically only helps scum - My vote stays with him, my suspicion stays with Ace for investigation, and everyone else is a null read to me because there is no evidence of scum (however one is cautious as there is 5 total)










1.From what I've explained, how am I excluding people and not just working with what I have?

2.Do you understand that there was no flip floppery on Ace from me? That seemed to be twisted in an ugly way to make me seem like scum (very weak evidence at that) - Where is the evidence on me aside from the childish attitude of "He's not voting him, he must be friends!" - that is NOT justice - where is my freedom to vote who I feel a better scum lynch?

3. Ace and Mix are our two strongest cases. Nobody finds Emp's active lurking and vote on me an issue? As though he's keeping it there and lurking for D3 while we fight out today and lynch tonight?

Would you have been satisfied if I had simply said "Well, AA, I have my own case, you go do your thing"?

Start talking about the Ace case

.

Or else what? And how much further since he hasn't been here?

This is the kind of thing that makes me feel bullied and I lash out at - - YES - I do expect you guys to respect the choices I make the same I respect yours

I was passionate about making sure you all understood the case - I stand by that - I not once told you to get off yours, or demanded your votes -



***I've kept the arrogance down - I would appreciate no more personal jabs or negativity - this is a two way street and I'm more than willing to be civil***

[AA23]

When you state that we're saying things and claiming things that we aren't

, that's not misunderstanding.

Lying

is the proper term

He means.... "Would you rather kick a baby or punch a baby?" No matter what he answers, he'll look bad.

Not what I'm saying at all

There's nothing inflated about my points - here they are again:

1. He scum hammered
2. Lied about his first reason
3. Lied about his second reason
4. Painted himself a hypocrite
5. Lurked, lurked, lurked

Again, scum can still scumhunt and you're not scummy for not for being on the wagon, but for inflating your case against Mix when Ace has much greater offenses.

Difference of opinions, Dej - stop trying to be a bully about it

Nobody finds Emp's active lurking and vote on me an issue?

I noticed, but I don't think much of it even though he's normally very active.

So he's acting against the norm, you say...

The last thing I'm gonna try to do is understand why a

retard does what he does and the less he's posting, the less likely I'll get pissed off at the game.

Not to mention how there are already people here you can get a read on that come off as scummy, but regardless of that,

he should be lynched by the end of the game.

I think you're playing very nasty - are inappropriate, rude, and once again, you're trying to plan another lynch based on your admitted prejudice.

I'm more than happy to clean up my game play, but I'd apprecaite everyone not being hypocritical and letting hate/negativity like what Dej is displaying to be acceptable - -


Dej - Our case preferences are difference of opinions, that can't be helped

[AA23]

There's nothing inflated about my points

Difference of opinions, AA - stop trying to be a "bully" about it

This is my point - In this sentence, you're either being a bully and confrontational, or you're hypocritically agreeing that it is indeed difference of opinion

I think you're playing very nasty - are inappropriate, rude, and once again, you're trying to plan another lynch based on your admitted prejudice.

You're totally right. That's

an insult to retarded people

. Emp is in his own category.

There's no need for that

Personal attacks are very necessary

. But you're right, the critisms should be based on actual play.

Emps play is also retarded.

Please keep a handle on your prejudice and negativity

--------------------------------------------------------------

Emp & Ace

Your votes on either prodominant wagon will determine the forwarding of the game - if you're still with us, please give a vote with detailed reasoning

[AA23]

Mix is a main suspect not posting - - do you have any other reasons?

[AA23]

Mix hasn't cleared himself - the "answered questions" were two lies and he's yet to clear himself further.

However

- Ace has been active on the site and indeed, Mix hasn't posted since his last statement on this site

I'd like to know what the status is on those prods if the mod wouldn't mind poking in.

Mod - what's the status on the prods, here? Any replacing/responses?

Ace asked to be replaced and Mixologist didn't respond so I am looking for two replacements.

[AA23]

Thesp touched on this, but the same goes for Mix.

I'm concerned about a stalemate of sorts.

I feel like Mix through in the towel as a caught villain - - I needed to know

his

mind set for what happened, he was the only person capable of clearing everything up.

[AA23]

EBWOP

"Threw" - not through

[AA23]

Mod - - does Mix's vote stay on? Since he's being replaced, would it not be taken off, and then ther replacement makes their own vote?

as dejkha points out the vote stays

[AA23]

Still, I'd like to know what you mean by this:

- It is a variable - - a variable that is SUSPICIOUS, but until proven false, is not a SCUMTELL. Hence I found him suspicious

You're using wierd definitions here, and I'm confused.

What does it mean for his actions to be a 'variable'?
In what sense are you using the word 'scumtell'?
(as far as I'm concerned, a scumtell is not 100% definite proof that someone is scum, but rather, a particular phrase or position that is unlikely to be said or taken by a townie. I don't know what AA is looking for here, and why Mix's actions are a 'scumtell' and Ace's are not)

We don't have access to the other website to confirm or deny any of the statements Ace made - how he introduced them, and how everyone reacted to it was suspicious

I find Mix hammering someone, and failing to justify it twice (and both times, being caught lying) is a scumtell and more so concrete than us speculating what we cannot confirm (on the other site)

Your last statement is purely semantics - - I'm not going to get in a battle with you over the definition of a scumtell - - it's a difference of opinion.

When standing Ace next to Mix - I find Mix to be scum, and Ace to be more so suspicious - - Mix is a priority to me

I feel like Mix through in the towel as a caught villain

Oh, really? And I suppose Ace just went for a long stroll?!
The case of 'caught villain giving up' is far stronger in support of the Ace case.

u took this from with "The same goes for Mix" - I wanted it to be clear that the need for replacing did not suggest further/dominating evidence on either of them - -

If you vote for Ace, I'll hammer him.

If you vote for Mix, then it looks like either one of the Ace-wagoners will have to jump over to the Mix-wagon, or Mix will be lynched in a deadline lynch.

This is twisted in a way. Your more or less telling Thesp he can go the easy way by voting Ace, or going the hard way by having to persuade someone else. This situation is kind of leading.

Hmm, yes. Ash, are you happier with an Ace lynch than a Mix lynch?

He's on the Mix wagon right now, so the statement actually reads that he's happy with

a

lynch.

Are you in a rush, Ash?

[AA23]

I feel like Mix through in the towel as a caught villain

Oh, really? And I suppose Ace just went for a long stroll?!
The case of 'caught villain giving up' is far stronger in support of the Ace case.

had a quoting fumble up in the previous post, guys - apologies.

To start - no need for you to get worked up by the statement, Percy - It's once again a difference of opinion. I stated in the beginning of the post that "Same goes for Mix" - - they are both out of this game, and one of them is full on out of this site.

Can you explain your statement on how both suspects needing replacements makes Ace scummier?

Can you further explain why you're needing to ask Ash which wagon he prefers when his vote is clearly on Mix's? - - his suggestion of hopping makes it clear he's interested in a quicker lynch - did you miss that, or were you hoping that asking him which he preferred would speed up the process and feed the Ace wagon?

It just strikes me as a campaign - as though you guys need the votes or something lol - - makes me wonder if it's nervous anxiety to get votes off of Mix.

And that leads to all sorts of thoughts for me.

[AA23]

A very fair statement, Ash.

Thanks for clarifying your position being different from "wanting a lynch" and being flexible between Ace and Mix - I understand that sentiment

[AA23]

You were being an ass when you asked that - do you see that?

---------------------

Mix was always on top of his V/LA's - if ther was a life issue, his meta in this game tells us he would have made it known

--------------------

A person who gets bored with a game and ops out could be disappointed with their role or bored - - that's the other end of what you seem to think is obvious with Ace - - it's another variable

His lying: A suspicious variable - - we cannot get on the website to prove or disprove so one decides what to believe on (gut?)
His replacement: Bored towny? Caught scum throwing in the towel? Two equally possibilities, but one decides to believe the scummier reason on (gut?)
----------------------------------------------

If we're going to talk meta and precedent - - Mix's meta shows that his absence is irregular and less formal which leans in favor of me thinking it was emotional

Now, I can take some time to read up on Ace's meta and see which roles he gets bored/disinterested in with fast

That's scumhunting, Dej -- don't cuss at me. (Keep your agressive nature down, too - - I have a special needs member in my family and have been more than tempted to report you)

No cussing - and no prejudice to special needs
-----------------------------------------

I'll be back with what I turn up on Ace's meta - - see which roles he has a history with ditching. If it turns up in favor of scum, it earns my vote.

[AA23]

Balls.


I've only just glanced at his message history and already:

He has 4 other ongoing games, and last friday posted a V/LA - -

Busy in real life, and busy on this site - that can explain the lurking and the bail out.

HOWEVER

He has two completed games I looked at

Polygamist 145 and a newbie game.

In the one where he was scum, he came back after the game with comments like

"Well I

was

going to respond to my prod you guys...." and was very in and out.

In the one where he was town, he was not only active, but actually posted a thanks to the Mod saying
"Thanks for the mass prod, this game needs it!" because he felt the other players weren't keeping up as much.
----------------------------------------------------

Meta shows less interest in Scum roles than town.

While I regard

both

wagons, I would like to stress that no such leniancy should be given to whoever fills Mix's shoes. I feel strongly that Mix is scum.

The bail out is enough to earn my vote as it connects Ace to scum through meta on this site.

Unvote : Mix
Vote: Ace

I would like to express concerns that Mix/whoever replaces him runs the risk of gaining immunity through this which I do NOT like WHATSOEVER - -

[AA23]

AA23 just switched from the wagon he's been pushing all day to the one he's been against all day

I resent that -

I've maintained that I had no interest in bashing the Ace case, I simply

preferred

the Mix case.

I always maintained I was suspicious of Ace, I just felt the case was more concrete with Mix - however, the bailing on this game connected him to scum through meta and it felt logical.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Someone had to be lynched, otherwise the replacements would have(IMO) muddied up both wagons and set us back into a lull/crazy haze of confusion (which isn't appropriate seeing as they themselves can't defend the wagons because they do not know the mind state of the people they replaced)

- In a final investigation to determine whether my vote would stay or change, I let meta connected to this game determine that.

- The meta showed that it woudl be more sensible for me to vote Ace. I would otherwise have been a hypocrite on the matter of assuming why he left the game
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I made a logical and fair choice, they were two neck and neck wagons, I declared I would let meta be the tie breaker, and my investigation pointed to Ace.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would regret the loss of a towny, and intend to finish my business with Mix

Vote: Sotty

Sotty, the person you replaced hammered a person the flipped town.

He waited hours before giving a reason. - the reason proved dishonest, so he gave a second answer

That proved dishonest, and he made a comment proving him to be not only a liar, but a hypocrite.

I asked him to once again, say why he quickhammered a case he didn't investigate at ALL in ANY way - and after two failed attempts to come clean (which says enough) - he took the 5th and is no longer posting on this site.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[AA23]

This is why I left everything to that meta investigation - - what's happening to the Mix case could have happened to both.

Sotty has NO insight to the inner workings of Mix - it was Mix alone who could have cleared that wagon

The most that can happy is Sotty naturally tries to point scum at someone else - and then Bam! Immunity to the Mix case - -

Same would have gone for Ace - -
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[AA23]

happen* EBWOP

[AA23]

I feel like the best Sotty can do is play the innocence card and point at someone else.

We can legitimately do that to SEVERAL other people seeing as there are a number of other villans in the game still -

And seeing as it is top of the Day, and not much has happened - - we would have found the other case by now, no? (from the previous days)

If he doesn't have outstanding evidence that a fresh pair of eyes spots (and outstanding meaning better than the Mix case) I don't see any reason why the Mix wagon can't be given the attention it deserves.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And Dej
- Not to bash your scum-radar seeing as you've been early on two towny wagons, but don't you think all of your points on Hewitt exist in Emp, if not worse?

You're going to 100% ignore the Mix points even after Ace flipped town?

You thought Zwet was scum, he flipped town, you admitted a prejudice to him and Emp, You thought Ace was scum, you thought I was his scum partner - he flipped town and the hits keep coming on you, man -

And after admitting and standing by your hatred and prejudice to Zwet and Emp - - you ignore my wagon and vote Hewitt (for reasons that apply more so the Emp?) - there's a lot not making sense about you - - your scum reads are all wrong, and you are uncharacteristically giving Emp a pass in exchange for Hewitt?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The most Sotty can do is (as a pair of fresh eyes) point at scum in a direction we haven't looked - - - - unfortunately, nothing he points at can outweigh the Mix wagon seeing as Mix has scum ACTIONS painted on him, LIES, HYPOCRISY, and the bailing out of this game - - - - anyone else is at best guilty of seeming like they're actively lurking - - - I stress, if Sotty doesn't "wow" us with a case, I want my wagon to be completed, otherwise what are we doing here? Are we agreeing to give immunity of Mix's actions to Sotty and risk letting scum live?

It's the very thing I was concerned about at the end of the day - - we had two wagons, and I made my statement about what both people leaving meant - - I honest to god thought that the meta investigation I made would turn in my favor - that was the only reason I made the vote - I stick to my word, the meta pointed to Ace.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

My "Strike when the iron is hot" statements from yesterday, for those who didn't know what I was talking about in my damn ramblings, is THIS - - if we don't follow through on this, it's gone - I guaruntee it

[AA23]

What I did was logical - -

I hoped my meta investigation would prove in my favor, but it didn't
------------------------------------------------------
What is happening to my Mix case right now, is what could have happened to BOTH cases (two people replaced - they are both near death - they BOTH point other people out as scum - more confusion - more doubt - more questions - more time) - - I knew a lynch had to happen, I just wanted it to be the most appropriate one - -

As I wasn't against the Ace case, and simply more so FOR mine, I felt the dealbreaker would be finding that Ace's meta showed anything to support me - - I would have been a hypocrite to find his most recently completed games (one town, one scum) reflected almost the same in this very game - - it was that reason alone that I put my vote down.
----------------------------------------------------

There is nothing illogical about wanting the Mix situation resolved - -Do we all think Sotty is going to vote himself or something? There's no mystery here, he's going to point elsewhere, and the evidence is obviously going to fall short from the Mix evidence (otherwise we would have spotted it already) - - so really it's insulting our intelligence.

[AA23]

So Dej thought Zwet was scum, he flipped town - he thought Ace was scum with me, and Ace flipped town - - he voted Hewitt for reasons he could have voted Emp (and figured he'd save Emp for later...that doesn't sound suspiciously like saving someone for a utility lynch) - - and now he's changed his vote to me.

On the basis of? - I mean, Dej, you've been top notch scumhunting to this point lol wrong, wrong again, wrong some more, and now you're voting me based on what evidence?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thesp -
We'll hear what he has to say, but then what? When will you stop distancing yourself and acting like a mediator and actually contribute thought - - have you nothing to say at this time, or are you indeed hoping for Sotty to point at someone new so you can point, scratch your chin, and say "interesting...".

Are you not going to find something suspicious until someone else mentions it first, or would you like to offer something to this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[AA23]

@Thesp -

Alright...I won't get hot headed.

[AA23]

@ Sotty -

--No, I haven't played with Percy before - why do you ask?

--I read through posts VERY fast and am irresponsible when it comes to catching questions within bulks of text/sometimes in general. If I ever "ignore" a question, I probably didn't see it, or it wasn't illustrated as important/related to scumhunting (fair statement seeing as I have no concrete scum actions against me - - I've been an arrogant dick here and there, but nothing past that)

-Even you admit the hammer was scummy. - - Do you think in all of those pages, Mix could have investigated or shown interest? Do you think in all of the post lynch pages, Mix could have easily said why he wanted to hammer at the end? Why was it so complicated to know why he lynched Zwet? Why did he lie twice?

- I'm unsettled that you acknowledged the cringe reaction one would get to how scummy Mix's hammer was in the same paragraph that you claim town (it seems like you're brushing it under the carpet, and are passively trying to say you're town and not ahve it contested)

- The reason for the head spinning repetition I give is simple - - - everyone on this board (including you) acknowledge the hammer as scummy, witnessed the first two reasons behind it fall short from the truth, and still need convincing that Mix was dirty.

**Who do I think are allied? Scum? Town?

I never feel safe speculating just on vibes alone without something concrete - it causes anomosity and makes people more hard headed when I try to convince them of something.

But.

I think that Dej could be villain - -
When I played with him in a 20 page plus game, he was town and was VERY careful about his prejudice resulting in the mislynch of a towny - - - in this game, not only is he seemingly proud of the prejudice, he in fact "Doesn't want Emp alive past lylo" - - that sounds like scum planning a mislynch, making Emp his scumtool.
He's characteristically scummy (in light of the town game I played with him), he's been nothing but wrong in this game with his speculations, and he lashes at anyone for the slightest hint of suspecting him which strikes me as nervous scum (I would know, I have a habit of lashing out at people for

not understanding/agreeing with me

because I'm a narcissistic power-freak).

Thesp has a meta that wins me over. He has experience on the site and an appreciation for intellect - - he's a legal assistant and has an understanding on how to pick your battles and when to show your hand - - my aggressive and emotional behavior will be the death of my town play and good cases - - - a good thing can be a bad thing if you don't dress it/sell it right - - In short, I'd learn a lot from his tact (which unfortunately comes across as mediating and not contributing - though like I said, his meta suggests otherwise)
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Sotty - There was a more than decent case on Mix, and to not lynch you today would be giving immunity to that case/actions - - for me alone, I can't change that vote - - -

[AA23]

Dej - you're an ignorant person, I'd be wasting my time pointing at all of your negative attitudes toward people - - I've toned down my gameplay significantly, but you sir - you've been a negative, mean spirited jerk in almost all of your posts within the last 10 pages.

I don't have to defend my opinion of you - I'm not voting you or taking official action based off of it, so move on.
---------------------------------
Great to see Emp dropping by - - - The least sensible posting I've seen in a long time with intentionally the fewest words - - - At least Hewitt wrote details about why he did things

[AA23]

Again one game means nothing.

I wasn't even "careful" about my prejudice, I was careful about lynching another stupid townie I've never played with before.

Meta is meta - there is no official number of games someone has to play before they call it valid "meta".

And as for the bolded - ----

If you're going to tell someone they were wrong to say you were being careful - - don't say you were careful in the same sentence.

When your prejudice is to lynch two players you find stupid - - being careful not to lynch a stupid townie is being careful with your prejudice.

Sotty, I don't know if you remember from your first read through, but I showed how

AA claimed to do a meta on me (to support most of the statements in the quote above) and lied about it.

He tried to say I was careful in other games than the one we played together, which is a lie (and I proved it).

Don't throw words like "lie" around unless that's what they are.

You can say that you

DENY

those things, but as

I

have just shown in the above quote, you're clearly misrepresenting that event

Remember in our one game we played together when you were scum? You left me alive until lylo, when I was wrong every time and I was town. And that was when I was the most pro-town person in the game. So that's actually a good point you're bringing up. The situation in the game is similar to this, so that makes it's more likely that you're scum, especially since you're trying to use that against me.

So in this quote, I can't help but pull a Dej and "lol".

Hypocritically

, he seems to think one game IS enough for a legitimate meta!

I'm glad that's cleared up.

And the most protown person in that game was MadeofPhail.

And for the bolded: THATS YOU ALL OVER! I don't remember once lashing out at anyone suspecting me, but I could find a lot more of you lashing out. Again, more hypocrisy and probably lies.

So you've already demonstrated your hypocrisy.

And as for your lashing out? You're quite snotty and snappy. In a LOT of your posts - - you strike me as nervous.

my aggressive and emotional behavior will be the death of my town play and

good cases

I lol'd at the bolded.

I'm not ashamed to acknowledge my faults and better myself, Dej, I know how to swallow my pride - - I've made my efforts to clean up and I've done so - - you've just been digging and digging, Dej

[AA23]

@ Sotty -

You seem to be misunderstanding the issues with the Mix hammer, so clearly the repetition does nothing for you.

It was dirty because of his reasoning - it was opportunity.

He gave his reasons hours later - - and I called him out on them being BS - - they existed on page 5 meaning they clearly didn't convince him or inspire him to investigate.

The only thing Percy pointed out was that Mix threw an "oh yeah - fos Zwet" - - that was IT.

So when I called him out, he gave a new excuse and said that he didn't like being on wagons early unless he started them - that one fell through too.

They were lies, and no, Sotty, not like Ace - - Ace's lies couldn't be proven because we had no access to the off site references he made - - Mix's lies existed on this board.

My vote stays, man.

[AA23]

And as for the bolded - ----

If you're going to tell someone they were wrong to say you were being careful - - don't say you were careful in the same sentence.

If you're going to dare respond to my post, make sure you know what I was responding to.

You said: he was town and was

VERY careful about his prejudice

resulting in the mislynch of a towny
I said: I wasn't careful about my prejudice. I was careful about lynching another townie I've never played with before.

Holy semantics...

Don't throw words like "lie" around unless that's what they are.

You can say that you DENY those things, but as I have just shown in the above quote, you're clearly misrepresenting that event

Fine, maybe they're not lies

, but they're definitely the opposite of truths.

Now, I know as a master of the art of misrepresenting, you'd know your stuff, but I proved you wrong. (again lol)

thank you for demonstrating the attitude I was talking about.

You've been nothing but

wrong

in this game, admit that in your previous townie game with me (almost proudly) that you were constantly

wrong

- and now, just as you were fooled by me in the last game and

wrong

about my allignment, you are once again

wrong

Well done Dej.

And as for your lashing out? You're quite snotty and snappy. In a LOT of your posts - - you strike me as nervous.

Again, he proves to have lied about my meta.

I'm almost always snotty and snappy.

I'm not ashamed to acknowledge my faults and better myself, Dej,

You didn't acknowledge your not good case. More lies.

DEJ - IN THIS FINAL QUOTE YOU DEMONSTRATE HOW YOU DISAGREE WITH ME, AND CONFUSE DISAGREEING WITH LYING. LET THIS BE A NOTICE TO EVERYONE THAT THIS IS DEJ'S WARPED PERCEPTION ON LIES - ESPECIALLY IN HIS STATEMENTS ABOUT ME

[AA23]

@ Dej

Comments like "saving him for later" and not voting someone because you'd have "no help lynching" since nobody would hop on the wagon etc - - it seems scummy. You're flat out chasing lynches (and easy ones at that) instead of chasing villains.

And if Hewitt and Emp were on equal (or worse of with Emp) standing, and it was the beginning of the day, and you always vote Emp and have a bias to hiim, and want a lynch - - - why Hewitt? What made you think you would have more "help", it's not like he had a bunch of votes on him, you could have easily started the wagon on Emp.
-------------------------------
@ Percy

My repetition, though annoying, is something I do when people agree with me yet still challenge - - nobody HAS to be on a wagon I start, but I just hate when people agree my points exist and then smack the case.

Question:

1. Did you notice Sotty suggest you were possibly scummy for seemingly "buddying" up with Mix and defending him? - - Do you agree that such a thought/accusation would only be substantial if Mix(Sotty) were scum? - - otherwise, why care? If Sotty knows his role is town, why suggest you're Mix's scumbuddy? - - Doesn't make sense

-----------------------------------------------------------------
@ Hewitt
- I'm feeling on equal ground between Mix and Dej. In addition to his behavior, how unhelpful he's been (being wrong all the time), uncharacteristic game play, and his complete hatred and distancing from the Mix case - - it makes me think they're in league together.

I think Mix(Sotty) and Dej are partners.

[AA23]

@ Sotty -

You're playing EXTREMELY scummy in that post.

Note how many times you ask and suggest the summiness of at least three people in your attempts to take attention off yourself.

And I find it to be a weak attempt to manipulate Percy by connecting him to me so much. He's made it clear why he's on the Mix wagon.

You're trying to shoo him off of it by calling him either scum that's buddying up to me, or making him feel like he's "lost" some kind of battle and has given in to me.

The wagon is valid - that's reason enough for anyone to get on it, and now that Ace is cleared, there's another way to consider it (which is what he's done) - - I've yet to get the impression that he has any intention to buddy up with me, but I do see how you're trying desperately to play off his emotions toward me and coax him off of you - - - you smell like scared villain at this point.
------------------------------------------------
It makes sense for your play to be geared toward favoring Dej. He's acted like your partner from the gate (not even considering the case in any way, it feels like he's protecting you. And Emp) - - I can see why you wouldn't want to mention his mean game play, his poor logic (being wrong so often), his decision making between Hewitt/Emp

Why on earth would you exchange a large post that's 100% geared toward a manipulative psychological attack on Percy for Dej, who's technically your best friend right not? - - There are most certainly thins worth asking of him, no? Do you not see those things? Want to ask those things?

You got snotty with Thesp the moment he voted you - - the moment it didn't look like he'd be as useful to you as Dej
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
**Percy**

I assure you that I'm fully aware that you have never in this game approved of the way I presented my case and are not a fan of me - - - I understand you're on this wagon by your own accord.

I wouldn't let a cheap attempt of manipulation form Sotty ruin that
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

@ Sotty

Once again, the repetition is doing the trick....

You asked Percy what kind of answers Mix could have given us.

They are the same answers I want.

Mix hammered - - it was scummy and opportunistic.

Mix said it was NOT opportunistic.

Mix gave his reasons for hammering, yes?

Thos reasons were a LIE. He gave them on pg 14, and they existed on 5 (meaning they clearly did not convince him in any way, because he did not vote Zwet, not did he investigate him, ask him a question, or mention him in any way. the ONLY thing he did was include a "ps. fos zwet" - it was practically a formality and an aside)

So the first reason fell through, and he admits that he doesn't like being on wagons early unless he starts them.

This proves false as in this very game he was second on the Ace wagon (and early as hell at that) - - on page 5, Zwet had three people voting him - - didn't make sense.

Mix got ansy and played a word game of "Like isn't concrete"

QUESTIONS:
1. Why would Mix fail to give true, honest, towny reasoning multiple times? Is it hard for an innocent person to give reasons behind their innocent actions? Doesn't seem like his action was so innocent.

2. When his second response to why he hammered proved to be bullshit and "not concrete" (still boggling that someone wouldn't want to be concrete on that, eh? Maybe he was hoping nobody would call him on it) - - he made a statement to the effect of "people who are certain about who is scum are often scum - I think you're scum" - - he made that post instead of answering my question - - I quoted him on how he multiple times claimed certainty on scum, thus making him one embarrassed hypocrite.

So, as a hypocrite, and a liar (to false reasons), and a lurker (abandoned the game - - so perhaps if nor lurker, than frustrated villain throwing in the towel) he failed to clear himself

Now Sotty - - lets hope that repetition does something for you now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sotty - - why was Percy defending/seemingly buddying up to Mix a concern for you? - - were you trying to prove it was very town of him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Confirm Vote: Sotty

You're scrambling. You're posting is large and focused (coincidentally on the people you consider to be a threat to you). Percy flips to the Mix wagon, you devote a large post to him, Thesp voted you, you made a snappy "contribute something" remark to him, I haven't given up on my Mix wagon, and you've Fos'd me for reasons that are weak and only Dej (your new buddy) would believe (misrep).

Dej really does seem like your villain buddy now. The man has been negative, rude, prejudice, wrong in every one of his suspicions, admittedly wrong in other games, and suspiciously quiet toward Emp which if you check his wiki (well organized ) you'll see that whether he votes Emp, investigates, fos's, or ANYTHING - Dej never lets Emp sit too quiet or play the way he is now.

Makes sense you don't suspect Dej for ANY of the above reasons - why? Because he doesn't want to lynch you. And that's valuable to you - villain.

Vote Count

Sotty7 3 - AA23, Percy, Thesp
AA23 2 - dejkha, Empking
Percy 1 - Sotty7
dejkha 1 - Hewitt

Sotty7 is -2

[AA23]

Mod - - le double post!

Liar...

[AA23]

@Sotty

You're hypocritical.

You cringed at the scumminess of Mix's hammer, yet you think he answered the questions and had reasons to hammer?
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think you'll invest much time scumhunting Dej because he's your best friend as in "He's not voting you, and is hating on your main scumhunter".

When Thesp ignores questions and does serious actions with no explanations/scummy conduct - - you can go ahead and point a finger at him. Emp I can understand, but to say someone isn't being useful just because they know when to keep quiet is a stretch.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm keeping my vote

Percy's vote doesn't seem hypocritical or dirty at all. If anything, you turning the a scumhunting scope his way seems OMGUS and as though you're trying to fit his actions with scumminess rather than the other way around.

He made a vote. He said why he did it. - - interpretation is fair game, think what you want, but until he does something scummy that can't be logically explained, you're wasting your time more than my repetition (which we're starting to share!)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

1.Were you lying when you cringed at how scummy you thought Mix's hammer was?

2.His reasons existed on page 5 - - he ignore Zwet in every way until 14 when he quickhammered him. Why would he use old reasons like that? He was full steam ahead with PASSION toward Ace for all of those pages - - Do the reasons strike you as filler, and him following the crowd? Do you think he really believed those reasons?

3. If he did believe them, why would he ignore Zwet and focus 100% on Ace?

4.**For the record, when I called those reasons out as bullshit, he made the "I don't like being on wagons early unless I start them" comment - - why would he give an alternate hammer reason if the first one was valid?

5. Why would he make the early wagon statement when he knew he was on Ace 2nd?

6. When I asked him to re-state his reasons / give appropriate answers, why did he rant himself into an embarrassing hypocritical hole before abandoning this site entirely?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you understand why I can't just toss you immunity for his actions? I would never forgive myself if you flipped villain and I just passed Mix's actions off for some inexplicable anomaly - - I'd bang my head against the wall and feel duped.

The reasoning is logical, and it fits scum. You're wasting your time trying to talk me off the wagon (not that you fully are).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

** It's a game. If you flip town, I'll feel duped while assuming that Dej and Emp are werewolves and Percy and Thesp are Ash's mafia partners who now want blood for their fallen Ash and are exploiting my hot headedness on the wagon to get a quick Day's mislynch so they can win the game.

But that's too much of a headache to prove and it's only really my gut feeling.

So in the meantime, I'm going to stick to this case and see how everything plays out.

[AA23]

two options: you or someone I can get a read on, and since I doubt you'll reach a lynch today, I voted hewitt

That's chasing a lynch, Dej. Re-read it....very slowly....nice....yeah lol....mmm.

First off, the bolded: WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? WHEN WERE YOU RIGHT THIS ENTIRE GAME? NEVER! YOU WEREN'T PART OF A SINGLE FUCKING LYNCH THAT WAS RIGHT AND YOU ALMOST LYNCHED OUR SEER! AND THE CHANCES ARE, IF SOTTY'S LYNCH GOES THROUGH, THAT WILL STILL PROVE TO BE TRUE! SO SHUT THE FUCK UP AND START CATCHING UP ON "USING YOUR BRAIN FOR DUMMIES", BECAUSE SOMETHING TELLS ME YOU'RE WAY BEHIND!

**"Wah!! Waaahhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Waah!!!"***

There there Dej, here's a tissue....

Calm down, skipper. You're losing composure. And you're getting pretty aggressive.


And I was part of

One

lynch, and it was for a good reason - eliminate confusion between two growing wagons.

You sir, are worse off then me as far as track records with being wrong is concerned - starting with Zwet, and ending with thinking I'm a villain.

And I DO love your logic - I can really trust you to have the best interest of the town as shown below

I don't particularly care if he's scum

, because I assume town will be smart enough to lynch him. If he's scum

it doesn't matter when he's lynched as long as it happens

, so I'm not very concerned. If he's

not scum, then

oh well

, at least there's one less Empking.

You got snotty with Thesp the moment he voted you - - the moment it didn't look like he'd be as useful to you as Dej

Ok, now this implies that you think he's "favoring" me because I'm not voting him, not because we're scumbuddies.

Actually it looks like a combination of things - they don't have to be mutually exclusive. You could be going easy on him because he's your villain buddy, and he can be using that to his advantage.

Pretty simple stuff.

"Never" is such a delicate word, especially when you use it incorrectly. There has been

a

game where I payed almost no attention to him, fool.

Please link to that.

And then explain how out of your entire wiki, one instance overpowers a heavy meta of you doing precisely what I said you do.

And then let us know what your allignment was in that one game.

So what is it, AA? Do I really look like his scumbuddy? Because this post also implies that you think he's just using me rather than us buddying. You can't have it both ways.

Aw. Poor thing. Aparently it

wasn't

so simple.

You can be going easy on your scumbuddy

And he can be using that to his advantage.

Like a relationship.

Partners.

If anyone has been 100% manipulative psychological attacking AA, it's you.

^QFT, right there! Definitely.

This is both puzzling and hypocritical...

Can YOU have it both ways, Dej?

Can I be mindless, hot headed, and ranting, yet APPARENTLY be capable of manipulating and psychologically twisting this game? It seems highly unlikely since I've been the black sheep for the most part.

Also I laughed out loud about you complaining about my posts being huge. “Hi Mr Pot? Yeah it's Mrs Kettle calling... Ah huh... Oh good, and you? Great! Well just wanted to let you know... You're black!”

Wow -

Didn't say big posts were bad - I'm talking about the direction, scope, content, and motivation.

You know. Intelligent and substantial things.

You'll get it. Yep.

I don't think you'll invest much time scumhunting Dej because he's your best friend as in "He's not voting you, and is hating on your main scumhunter".

That settles it, you never thought we were scumbuddies, you just liked the way it sounded since it would be so easy to convict me with it.

Settles it? I repeat in the above quote you used that you aren't voting him. That's your half of the scumbuddy relationship. It's quite simpl--oh--nevermind.

To everyone else: "It's quite simple"

[AA23]

@ Sotty.

I'm conflicted. In your explanation, there are a number of "Maybe he did this" and "I don't know" that - - and I

don't blame you for it

- I understand you're doing the best you can to answer things only Mix could - - however, it still strikes me as a variable.

That being said: I'm happy to be open minded when something is presented to me and not challenged (I get chauvenistic and prickish when I slip into a defensive mode) - so bare with me, and answer something for me:

The scenario I stated as a "gut feeling that I couldn't have the energy to prove" in my post to you - at the bottom, where I indicate how I would feel and what I would think if you flipped town. What are your thoughts on it, and is it plausible.

While I'm too proud to

easily

get off the Mix wagon, comparing me to him won't do too much - - my switch to Ace was justified and clearly explained (and I stress again that I thought the meta would prove in my wagon's favor. Fair is fair, and meta suggested Ace was scum. Mix had nothing to do with Zwet in any way nor in the way I was cognizant of Ace.

**You asked about the hypocritical hole - - it's post #461**

[AA23]

** It's a game. If you flip town, I'll feel duped

while assuming that

Dej and Emp are werewolves

and

Percy and Thesp are Ash's mafia partners

who now want blood for their fallen Ash and are exploiting my hot headedness on the wagon to get a quick Day's mislynch so they can win the game.

But that's too much of a headache to prove and it's only really my gut feeling.

So in the meantime, I'm going to stick to this case and see how everything plays out.

@ Hewitt -

I just finished asking Sotty to respond to the above as well, and in light of you noticing the odd choice Dej made for you over Emp, I thought you might have an opinion on it as well.

It's something I didn't even want to bother bringing up because of the ridiculous headache it would be to follow through on. I mean, I don't like starting wagons on gut feelings - it's not fair to any player (scum or town)

But it could make sense.

When I made this alt account, I was interested in experimenting different gameplay than my normal routines. This is the first AA23 game I've had, and I went into it thinking I'd play that slayer's gambit I always suspected Ace/Zwet of doing
(For those who don't know what that is, it's when you bait yourself as an easy lynch and watch for which scum run for you/uses you - likely kills you but ultimately helps the town)
I didn't have the stomache or patience for it, so I brought up the Dust case. It was

valid

but

weak

(a perfect platform for villains). Nothing ultimately came of it, and I couldn't figure one way or the other who was who, so it was useless to me.

Then the Mix debacle. I abandoned my initial gameplay to persue what I felt was a scum attached to hypocrisy, and variables - - if you're gonna hammer, especially if you only LIKE to hammer - - you damn well better know how to defend it because nobody in Mafiascum believes in a perfectly clean hammer (people ALWAYS turn on the hammer of a mislynch, if even for two posts - but 9/10 the towny can defend why they did it, or at least built up to it by following the wagon - - Mix was out of the blue)

So we have that. You know why I did what I did with Dust, you know I was opposed to the Zwet wagon, you know why I suspected Mix and abandoned trying to lure villains out - - at this time, if Mix(Sotty) is indeed town and my

valid

points are unfortunate variables - - then I do indeed wonder about the scenario in my opening quote to this post.

It's not so crazy - - That Percy and Thesp are mafiascum, and when Ash went down, they figured a quicklynch today would eliminate a towny/enemy to even the score/move closer to a win.

And it would also make sense out of why Dej in uncharacteristic to Emp. Perhaps they are werewolves together.

The numbers make sense, the relationships make sense. It could indeed work.

However - - it's like pressing a drill to your temple and piercing right through to try and prove it. I don't know if I have the energy, but if there are any takers on that scenario,

Khamisa, Hewitt, and Sotty, what do you think?

If our votes went toward that theory and we are indeed the townies left over - - it would require other villains hopping on the wagon and risking their own exposure in an attempt to eliminate the opposition (wolf/mafia).

Thoughts?

[AA23]

Mod- if you spot where I formatted code wrong at the word "valid" can you help me out? - - the word alone should be bold, I didn't cap it off and I think it reads as "big"

You forgot to cap off the bold tags in the quote. For some reason it closes the bolding off with the end of the quote but not the coding. Which screws everything up.

Have no idea why it became large text though!?

[AA23]

@ Percy - On the same page with the preview thing, no need to be harsh about it, but yeah, I agree!

Also - I want to bang my head in a fucking wall when you say things like what I read at the end of your post.

After I just spent a day wagoning Mix 100% and not talking about ANYBODY else - you make a post suggesting you want people to be open minded to other possibilities, and tell me to start singling out again? If what your smoking is free - send it over and I'll kick back with some Placebo, Kanye West, and Luce while I trip out

Give me a break, man.
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@ Sotty

The scenario I stated makes sense, and I understand that it makes it hard to swallow Khamisa being innocent - however, I'm playing with Khamisa in another game and they are no more/less active than in this one at present.

Also - it would indeed make sense for the Mafiascum to be Percy, Thesp, and Ash.

Ash falls, and Thesp and Percy hop on board with my hot headed wagon to get a quicklynch (and the quiet townies/lurkers fall in line seeing as two stronger posters have hopped on) - - however, the moment suspicions rise, Percy hops off? Hm.

Then there's the Dej and Emp relationship - as werewolves - I think that can make sense as well.

Like I said, I'm not sure how to best approach any of the theories, I suppose the next steps are

Waiting for Khamisa to respond to the prod
Waiting for Thesp to post
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And did Percy honestly suggest that I'm buddying with someone I've risked my own credibility and life in this game trying to lynch for two days?

I'm not buddying to Mix (so to speak) - - I'm being open minded to Sotty and any suspicions I have.
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[AA23]

And Percy - -

You only just now have an issue with pairing people in suspicions?

Thanks for being fair to me when I was paired to two different people in this game and you didn't even peep.

[AA23]

It's seldom free lol

------------------------------------------------------
Listen, I'm not trying to kick up a storm or anything - it's a thought I'd like to humor - an ultimate goal if you will - and it's unfortunately contingient on Sotty flipping town (for now)
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[AA23]

AA23 has lifted from bad play to scum play

. He not only

switched very easily from a case he had been following all day to another

, but his vote was quickly followed by

Ash

, who we now know is

Mafia

. Kind of a

swift way to end the day

, if you ask me.

This is an observation, and not something you've "found", really. If you re-read the posts leading to the lynch:

Ash made it clear he would change his vote to whichever lynch seemed to come first since both players were in the running and both were suspected of being scum.

I pressed him to clarify - - I want to know if he was hunting a lynch, or if he was open to settle for a lynch between two suspects - a sentiment I shared (and voiced)

I wanted to have one of the wagons lynched before both replacements came in - - It's more than natural for both of them to claim innocence and confuse the process - - instead of having two wagons jeapordized and more confusion prolonging our process, I wanted the lynch to come.

I made the statement of letting meta on game abandonment and activity determining it for me - - I looked into it and Ace was the stroner choice - - someone had to go, meta showed it was Ace - - I looked at it was one wagon on the way out, and mine being left for the next day with less confusion. There was nothing scummy about it - I voiced everything going on every step of the way, did I not?

It's not like you didn't know where I was coming from or why I did what I did - it's not scummy, it's justified and something you don't agree with.

Dejhka: We were "Masslurking" because of the "giant distraction".

Scort: You and AA23

Vote: AA23

Um...interpret?

He seemed to have written "Scort" instead of "Scott" (also wrong, but an attempt to abbreviate Sotty - or what he thought was "Scotty")

And after that? A vote on me. Why? Empking.

OK, I'm pretty firm in this.

Vote: AA23

Is this you officially stating that not only is Mix (Sotty) not a suspect, but he is more so a suspect than me?

He has more substantial evidence against him - you seem to be primarily put off with a vote change which I can't see being a dealbreaker.

I think the difference between my lurking and Empking's lurking is taht when I post, I actualy say something, Empking's posts are usualy 1-line or unreadable.

When you say something - it's minimal.

Do you feel you've addressed all of the content that could be addressed at this time? (For instance)

Nothing to note on the Dej/Emp relationship?
My hypothesis of the endgame teams?
Dej's vote on Hewitt (which branches from above)?
Sotty's impression of Thesp?
Percy hopping on the Sotty wagon, getting called out as suspicious, and pulling off real quick to save face?

None of those merit your time?

Yes, you lurk less than Emp, but you're certainly not doing too hot.

I'm furthermore not impressed that you would hold me in regard as scum because I switched a vote for (logical) reasons - -

if you don't agree with those reasons, I respectfully agree to disagree with you - but I wasn't scum for doing it.
---------------------------------------------------

Listen, I'm not trying to kick up a storm or anything

Ha! This is will be sigged at the conclusion of the game. It's just so false it's good.

Doesn't this fall into the malicious "poking fun" and being kind of Dick-ish game play that you yourself frowned upon?

For example - - yeah, you laughed at it. Is laughing at that going to help us find scum? Is posting if in a sig after the game going to make me feel very good? Or is it rude and uneccessary?

Don't get me wrong, I've been a dick too - - I'm just saying...Welcome to the club, hypocrite.

[AA23]

So you want a replacement to come in and say "Hi! I'm so-and-so's replacement, but I'm scum, so you can just lynch me now! Thanks! No. That's not how it works.

Replacements should be given a chance.

That's the thing I've been saying - - there's no secrets or mysteries to why I switched my vote - - nobody would make that figuritive "hey! I'm scum" statement - - so the only option (in your opinion) is to "give them a chance" - -

and MY opinion, just where we simply differ: is that the only chance we would be affording them is the cance to claim innocence and point fingers like crazy - - two volitile variables rocketing confusion into the game - - it needed to be decreased by one, and I hoped strongly it would be Mix - it however, turned out to be Ace.
---------------------------------------------------------------

And if i weren't for you, I may not have been wrong about Zwet,

Try taking a little responsibility Dej - - unless you indeed think I'm holding your hand for your logic from now on.

Oh yeah - - you voted Zwet before the debacle about "CC fishing" on D1.

Please link to that.

And then explain how out of your entire wiki, one instance overpowers a heavy meta of you doing precisely what I said you do.

And then let us know what your allignment was in that one game.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10778

The conditions were the same as this game and that's why it overrides my meta.

1. One game does not over power the meta that suggests otherwise between you and Emp

2. The one game you've linked us to is "South Park Mafia" where you spent almost every page out of the RVS leading to your death arguing with Spolium and making statements about "Butt-sex" - - you later comment on it in your wiki as though the whole game itself were something you didn't take seriously.

3. You have more meta as a towny with Emp interactions that prove you are being uncharacteristic in this very game. Unless you have another link better than the butt sex chronicles of south park mafia.

And do trust I've read them.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can be going easy on your scumbuddy

And he can be using that to his advantage.

Like a relationship.

Partners.

Look at that, you narrowed it down to one word. The one word that could've been used instead, but you didn't. Stop with the excuses.

Wha-? You're just picking ignorant fights at this point - get to the scumhunting and stop bickering like a child.

I guess I could say, by default he should be the first to go, because his play is the scummiest. Like, if we had to lynch right off the bat, he should always be the first choice.

I can't think of another way to say it =/

Do try.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Percy - My endgame makes sense and is something I like more and more. However, it would be irrational for me to invest in it beyond speculation. Knowing Mix's identity alters it for me.

Either people in the endgame need to flip according to the villain identities I was speculating on, or (and this is the one I'm sticking to, note my vote) Mix(Sotty) would have to flip town.

Speculation feeds the endgame theory, but what I regard as evidence feeds my "Mix is villain" theory.

It's win/win. My evidence either finds me scum in Mix, or it points my to a trail on the endgame I speculated on.

[AA23]

AA, the conditions are the same in that game as they are in this game and my reaction to him is the same. You're just trying to bypass it because it would ruin your theory and you can't handle that because I just shot down your only support.

No, Dej, that's my point.

You've given me once intance, Dej. One instance (and a weak one at that - extremely weak).

I'm telling you that meta is STRONGER and more substantial in saying your behavior to Emp in this game is contrary to your normal gameplay with him.

One game doesn't overpower the rest of your meta[

, Dej, simple as that
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@Emp - I understand you have the need to quote large postings before you add your tiny touch to it (so they look like you put more work in it) - - but can you re-word your latest contribution?