Mini 773- Welcome to Lynchville! Perfection! (Over)

[hohum]

doing a cursory read now

[hohum]

Unvote

No-Lynch is a bad idea.

More to follow.

[hohum]

Some of the conclusions I'm beginning to draw:

I might have a tendency to agree with qwint's take on KK because KK definitely is NOT playing to his town Meta right now. He's overly defensive, somewhat combative and keeps asking for more and more out of qwints to support his case.

However, qwints seemed to be trying REALLY hard to get KK lynched, then quite suddenly abandoned his case completely in favor of a Light-Kun lynch?

It's fine to change your mind, or go after different/better lynch targets but the way qwints was posting it sounded like there wasn't a doubt in his mind. In that context abandonment this close to a deadline is a decidedly scummy move.

The move reeks of an attempt to introduce confusion in the town.

Vote: Quints

For now, though admittedly I'm not done with my read yet.

[hohum]

Can't spell. Qwints

sorry.

[hohum]

Or a scummy player hopping on the bandwagon against KK made me re-evaluate my case.

Voting someone just because they hopped on a wagon is a bad idea whether you think they're scummy or not. Pack mentality is key for a successful town victory. Hindsight is the only way to judge a wagon properly.

If you think Light-Kun is scummy PLEASE go into more detail as to why.

Hohum, I also looked at KK's meta and I think you have to disregard the newbie games as being a different environment. Furthermore, there's only one scum game to go on. Thanks for replacing in!

He's played outside of the newbie queue as well.

[hohum]

And do it quickly because we're running out of time.

[hohum]

Weak sauce. Your case on LK is based around early observations that he was making which never resulted in a serious vote. His initial vote on Brian was completely random, which is why I can buy the "I forgot to vote KK" statement at face value.

Re post 52:

What you refer to as nonsensical may very well be nonsensical. Some people think out loud. He went on later to say that he was getting more of a town read on brian. Further more you took it out of context. I actually had to go and LOOK at what LK was referring to.

If you want my initial feelings about the game so far:

Scummy: Archaist. Kublai Kahn, lightkun and cateraction

Can you explain why you went after KK with such ferocity if Archaist was your top suspect? You've hardly touched on Archaist.

[hohum]

So to summarize the second part of your diatribe:

in ISO 18 you give him some town points, you don't know what to make of him alluding to the fact that he sometimes lies as town, you correctly called him out for making stupid assumptions and you seem to be fixated on the discussion about policy-lynches which is mostly meta at this point.

Again, weak sauce. I'd like to see the answer to the question I posed in 293

[hohum]

never mind re 293, you posted before I did

[hohum]

Well, howdy Hohum.

I might have a tendency to agree with qwint's take on KK because KK definitely is NOT playing to his town Meta right now. He's overly defensive, somewhat combative and keeps asking for more and more out of qwints to support his case.

Geez.. You replaced in in 3 minutes and already you've had time to research my meta? Astounding.

I responded to the replacement request in the replacement queue inside of 3 minutes. My first post in the game was just after 2:30 EST. My first relevant post (my analysis of your meta) didn't come until almost 45 minutes later, so I had plenty of time to research your meta.

Voting someone just because they hopped on a wagon is a bad idea whether you think they're scummy or not.

Isn't that exactly what you just did to qwints?

I knew someone was going to make this comment, so let me be clear about this:

I'm supportive of a qwints lynch and my vote and subsequent questioning was designed to make that fact clear to the town as well as why; but I don't realistically expect it to happen in 5 days.

It seems to have come down to a choice between you and LK, which is a tough call because both of you have some BS thrown on your cases and have had some legitimate points brought up against you as well.

If I went with my gut right now I'd change my vote to you instead of LK, and it's partly because of what qwints is doing. I've seen (all too often) games where people have replaced in and over-bussed their scum partners. I believe this to be one such case considering that he jumped from you onto the next most convenient wagon with some ULTRA WEAK reasoning behind the vote.

Either way I wouldn't mind losing one of the two of you in order to confirm my suspicion, though before I make my final final decision with my vote I want to hear what other people have to say.

[hohum]

I've also noticed that since I replaced in and started questioning qwint's motives the two of you have reverted to this weird mode where you're defending each other now.

[hohum]

Hohum, you don't find LK's most recent vote hopping suspicious at all?

He votes spastically in lots of his games, so while yes it is a tell based on Meta I would have to see a supplemental reason to vote him.

[hohum]

we were in open 111 together before it was mod-abandoned. I also spent some time reading some of your other games.

[hohum]

unvote

I like this hohum guy. But I don't think you've got the right idea about qwintz. Yes, he laid out a long elaborate case against KK, and then switched to Archaist, but (forgive me for putting words into your mouth, qwintz) I think he suspects both of them.

But he didn't jump ship for archaist. He jumped for LK and proceeded to post some weak justification.

This is in spite of the fact that he made a post highlighting Archaist as his number one target.

There is stark contrast between how he treats Archaist and LK, even though he says he suspects them both.

He won't reiterate the case against archaist sighting the rest of the town's input as his vote justification even though archaist is qwintz' #1 suspect, but he's happy to flood the topic with a weak LK case.

My position is either KK, or qwintz for D1 at this point. I don't like where the LK wagon is heading currently, though I can't completely discount the case against him.

[hohum]

1. ARCHAIST CLAIMED TRACKER. YOU DON'T LYNCH CLAIMED PR'S ON DAY 1 WITHOUT A GREAT REASON.

Correct. But you didn't SAY this when I asked, did you?

2. Repeatedly saying I have a weak case is not an argument. My case against LK is that he has twice been significantly inconsistent and that his vote changes have been unjustified and erratic.

Pot, meet Kettle.

3. LK, who I've always thought to be somewhat scummy, joined the KK wagon right after Archaist claimed. This made me nervous about my case against KK (although it might be consistent with scum bussing a partner.)

I don't follow your logic. Please explain how you reached this conclusion.

4. LK's reaction to me voting him was an OMGUS vote. 2 posts and 2 days before he voted me, LK posted

I feel that KK has been answered enough today, though I admit to generally agreeing with Qwints post.

The next post was a vote against KK and the one after that one against me. Admittedly, he did say he thought KK was scum but there was not one hint in his posts of suspecting me until I attacked him. This reaction is scummy.

I've already given my opinion of his voting habits. I don't like them either, but I think there are better lnych targets.

[hohum]

I didn't miss the fact that he claimed. In games like these guys like LK have a tendency to be lightning rods.

[hohum]

I feel that LK has established enough of a pattern as a shifty voter that it can't really be considered a slipup. He has nothing to gain.

You would expect a scum player to be hopping on the cases that have numbers in them. Like KK's for example. But LK abandoned this case for qwints, who really hasn't gotten too high in anyone's scum ratings yet. What would he have to gain from this if scum? It seems to me he is really trying to scum hunt and doesn't quite understand how the zeitgeist uses votes.

Hohum: Did you totally miss the fact that Archaist claimed? That's why everyone has been unvoting him. Do you suspect him to be lying?

Wait. Why am I answering your questions. Are you even part of this game?

[hohum]

Alex,

The notion that 5 days is enough time to COMPLETELY refocus the entire town on a different lynch target is laughable at best. Lots of people with lots of different motives to take into consideration.

Wishy-Washy is definitely what LK is, but that's more anti-town behavior than scummy behavior. Remember that scummy =/= anti-town.

[hohum]

also, since when is farside in this game?

[hohum]

Alex/Qwintz

I never personally listed LK as a suspect and never even remotely went out on a limb to call him a "top suspect". In fact just the opposite. I've been sitting here saying the entire time that I DON'T like the direction in which his wagon is going. You're both putting words into my mouth.

[hohum]

more qwintz votes, please.

[hohum]

Incidentally, qwints made it pretty clear that he was warm to the case against Archaist when he joined the game. I'm willing to show quotes to back this up, but I'm wondering if you dispute this at all.

Fine. I can accept that. He still needs to be lynched.

[hohum]

Re: Post 350: I'll lump KK in there too because he's the one that actually said I had listed LK as my top suspect.

[hohum]

I will not go along with an LK lynch. Not today.

[hohum]

Alex/Qwintz

I never personally listed LK as a suspect and never even remotely went out on a limb to call him a "top suspect". In fact just the opposite. I've been sitting here saying the entire time that I DON'T like the direction in which his wagon is going. You're both putting words into my mouth.

?? I never said that... Did you even read my post?

Wait, you did say that:

I know you switched out qwintz for Light-kun because of qwintz's vote change, but why did you ever list Light-kun as a top suspect if you consider him to be a "lightning rod" who has played according to his meta?

I too. Want to know this please.
[/quote]

more qwintz votes, please.

... This is good play in your opinion? Why instead of posting 4 null posts you try and answer what I've asked you?

Why don't you try posing your questions to me in an intelligible way instead of expecting me to pick out every single minute detail in your ridiculous walls of text. You're being purposefully vague in order to paint me in a negative light.

[hohum]

EBWOP: Quote tags fixed for clarity

Alex/Qwintz

I never personally listed LK as a suspect and never even remotely went out on a limb to call him a "top suspect". In fact just the opposite. I've been sitting here saying the entire time that I DON'T like the direction in which his wagon is going. You're both putting words into my mouth.

?? I never said that... Did you even read my post?

Wait, you did say that:

I know you switched out qwintz for Light-kun because of qwintz's vote change, but why did you ever list Light-kun as a top suspect if you consider him to be a "lightning rod" who has played according to his meta?

I too. Want to know this please.

more qwintz votes, please.

... This is good play in your opinion? Why instead of posting 4 null posts you try and answer what I've asked you?

Why don't you try posing your questions to me in an intelligible way instead of expecting me to pick out every single minute detail in your ridiculous walls of text. You're being purposefully vague in order to paint me in a negative light.

[hohum]

@Alex:

You accuse me of being lazy and not reading yet you're doing the same thing. I picked this out your diatribe:

Can you explain why you went after KK with such ferocity if Archaist was your top suspect? You've hardly touched on Archaist

He never said Archaist was his top suspect.

Point in fact, he did. And I even quoted where he said that. Go back and make sure YOU have YOUR facts straight before you call someone else out.

[hohum]

So far you had only mentioned 3 players you think were fit for a vote... So yeah, he might be seen as one of your top suspects... anyway, if you were answering KK too why did you only say Qwint/Alex?

It seems to have come down to a choice between you and LK, which is a tough call because both of you have some BS thrown on your cases and have had some

legitimate points

brought up against you as well.

Why don't you try posing your questions to me in an intelligible way instead of expecting me to pick out every single minute detail in your ridiculous walls of text. You're being purposefully vague in order to paint me in a negative light.

riiiiight...purposefully vague? paint you in a negative light? So? What's the follow up?

Straightforward question guide for dummies (you could comment on other stuff if you had a little bit of will)

If you don't stop with the ad-hom attacks I'm going to begin ignoring you and pushing for YOUR lynch.

Look them in my post to see what quote they're referring too:
1) Do you really think there wasn't a doubt in his mind? Do you think just because he voted LK it means that he abandons KK's case altogether?

You COMPLETELY missed the point. It's not THAT he did it. It's the context! The weak case on LK, the confidence with which he had in his KK case, and the fact that he abandoned ship so damned close to deadline.

2)"The move reeks of an attempt to introduce confusion in the town." How?

See above.

3) So did he acted based on a bad idea or is he scummy? (anti-town or scum? What are you accusing him of?)

Scummy. See above. Quit rephrasing the same question over and over again while you're at it.

4) It would've useful that you pointed here which are good and wich bad in your opinion.

What does this even mean?

5) So you would vote a person because you think that another who you think is scum may be bussying?

It's called a hunch. The only way to confirm a suspicion is to pester someone for clues.

6)What would you confirm with wich result?
A) KK scum
b) KK town
c) LK scum
d) LK town

Again, it's called a hunch. I've paired KK and qwiintz as a probable pair based on my hunch. There's no way to confirm anything until the game is over.

7)"There is stark contrast between how he treats Archaist and LK, even though he says he suspects them both." You know Archaist claimed right?
8) "I didn't miss the fact that he claimed. In games like these guys like LK have a tendency to be lightning rods." What about ppp? Archon?

What about them? I replaced ppp but your question is phrased as if you weren't aware of that fact and Archon is a subject I'm not willing to touch on personally so close to deadline. I already conceded that qwintz thought he had a legitimate case, and made a point to say so when he replaced in. What more do you want from me?

No... he assembled a list of various names when called for by Cater... But you say he was THE top suspect. Don't try to dismiss my questions like if I were uninformed. You just get annoyed when people question you. You gotta learn to try to respond everything until things are clear.... Not attack whoever questions you.

He assembled a list with Archaist as the first entry. I interpreted that to mean that he was saying Archaist was his top suspect. Further more, he failed to correct me when I made that assumption.

You ARE misinformed, annoying and a hypocrite for saying that I'm attacking you when your posts are full of ad-hom attacks.

[hohum]

@Mod: Will LK be lynched at deadline if nobody hammers or will we end up in No-Lynch?

I'm really unsupportive of an LK lynch and I've been vocal about that so far but an LK lynch is better than a no lynch, so this is a fairly important question.

[hohum]

Your case against LK is weak, but so is everyone else's.

The fact that you corrected me is so noted.

[hohum]

obviously it's falling on deaf ears so why don't you just let him claim instead of continuing to throw more shit at me?

[hohum]

I stated my intentions clearly from the beginning: I don't like the LK wagon. Anything I've been doing since has been secondary to that.

I began to post my dislikes of what qwintz was doing and it snowballed into this over-emotional discussion. I never abandoned my position.

And I wouldn't be grudge voting you. You seem to want to pick a fight with me -- in THIS game. You don't seem to care how many pages it spans or how distracting it becomes.

Calling your actions pro-town doesn't automatically make it so.

[hohum]

The way YOU abandoned the KK wagon is scummy. That's why you got attacked by me.

[hohum]

that's why RC and Lester haven't

[hohum]

qwints: You seem to be treating my attack on you and my dislike of the LK wagon as the same thing. It's two separate issues, though you posting weak justification for your LK vote certainly was one of driving factors of my questioning you.

LK: A claim would have been helpful.

[hohum]

Sure, because you know enough about my state of mind to know what my intentions are.

[hohum]

You're nit picking. I've been doing BOTH all along, I lead with my questions to you. How does that minimize my position on the LK wagon or vice versa?

[hohum]

I won't concede anything because it simply isn't true. You're grasping at straws. You're trying to twist and distort my position because you know I'm right.

[hohum]

Because you NEVER addressed the cases put forth by Red Canyon or Luther who were on the wagon before me.

Because THEY didn't hop onto the LK wagon from a pretty strong position on the KK wagon sighting some of the weakest justification I've ever seen out of a supposedly experienced player.

[hohum]

My position on your actions are clear. Obviously we disagree. This back-and-fourth isn't adding anything at all to the discussion. I shall begin to ignore you now.

[hohum]

Less than an hour until deadline.

[hohum]

maybe two.

[hohum]

Good call, thanks

[hohum]

He needs to claim, I think many of us have said that at one point or another. All he's really doing is stalling the game at this point.

[hohum]

I get the general feeling that this is a broken setup and that the entire town has got power roles, in which case I think we should just massclaim. This is going to get WIOFMy quickly.

[hohum]

I know what normal means. You and I were in a mini normal together that was set up similarly. Nobody in the town was vanilla, remember?

If this setup is broken then as town we should be able to figure out a way to break it based on claims, night actions, etc.

[hohum]

Alex: You're obvscum and I'm tired of your condescending attitude.

[hohum]

well, I don't want LK lynched, so I guess I *HAVE* to vote, don't I?

Unvote, Vote: KK

Though it's likely at this point that neither are scum.

[hohum]

Cyote: Wanted to get this out there before deadline, then I'll answer your questions:

I would rather see qwints lynched over KK, but it has to be coordinated fast.

[hohum]

Not absolutely, no. But there's better lynch targets.

[hohum]

I get the general feeling that this is a broken setup and that the entire town has got power roles, in which case I think we should just massclaim. This is going to get WIOFMy quickly.

Uh,

what

?

A) Borderline outguessing the mod
B) IMO, you let it slip that you are a power role (seriously, a doc and a tracker claim = entire town has power roles?)
C) Why are you even concerned about the setup when qwints has the lowest amount of votes with only a couple hours until the deadline?

I realize that it's bad practice in general but sometimes gaming the mod works. Really: step back a minute and take a look at the bigger picture. You're right, I did just soft claim a PR because we had 2 PR claims on D1. The odds of that happening in a balanced game are astronomical and if the game is unbalanced then it's breakable. We should be thinking about a breaking strategy.

That's why I'm concerned about the setup. We should claim tomorrow -- first thing.

[hohum]

The conclusion came out of Alex and his recent play. I'm allowed to change my mind. It's still pretty early in the game. I think the scum pair is likely you and alex, and I'm supportive of a KK lynch to help further that notion.

[hohum]

I'm calling Qwints/Alex now.

[hohum]

Which way would KK have to flip to further the notion of me and alex being a scum pair?

If KK flips scum then I'd be less likely to lump YOU into the scum group. In hindsight my bussing notion was probably wrong.

[hohum]

I doubt he will flip scum though. I'm sure he'll flip PR, then we need to sit down as a town and come up with a BREAKING STRATEGY.

[hohum]

because that would be 2 PR claims, 1 soft claim, and 1 confirmed PR. See the pattern here?

[hohum]

How the hell is that a point against me?

I don't want to die, but if I have to vote KK to keep from it, I will. I would still lynch qwintz but no one is going that way, and again...I don't want to die.

If you were really town, why should it matter to you whether or not you are lynched? Why would a town-aligned player posses an instinct for self-preservation?

[hohum]

...or someone's lying.

Please show me a game where everyone claims PR when that is not the case. Claiming a PR when you don't have one is usually a dangerous gambit.

[hohum]

I'm still in favor of a mass claim. ESPECIALLY if KK flips a PR.

[hohum]

@hohum, scum fake PR-claims to prevent a lynch aren't exactly rare. Either LK or Archaist could be scum, we just shouldn't lynch them today.

So your notion is the town was lucky enough to hit on TWO scum, both fake claiming PR to avoid lynch? Do you have any idea what the odds of that are?

I don't buy it. And that's a pretty scummy statement out of you.

[hohum]

I'm still in favor of a mass claim. ESPECIALLY if KK flips a PR.

Hohum, do I have this right? You're pressing for a KK lynch BECAUSE he's likely a PR?

I'm still in favor of a mass claim. ESPECIALLY if KK flips a PR.

Hohum, do I have this right? You're pressing for a KK lynch BECAUSE he's likely a PR?

No, stop twisting my words! I'm pushing my KK lynch to confirm my original notion of possible pairings. Since I don't have enough support to lynch either you or alex right now the alternative (at least on my score card) is a random lynch. I'd rather have a PRODUCTIVE lynch than a RANDOM lynch.

I'm saying that KK is likely to flip town because I no longer think it is probable that he is in the scum group with you and alex.

KK's flipping PR would confirm that the setup is horribly broken. Also very likely.

[hohum]

Yeah, wtf is with that? Are you that sure that it's a PR game and not just a lying scum? Because really, that's ridiculous.

You just don't get it, do you?

The odds are stacked against the notion that 2 scum hit, D1, fake claimed to stay alive, I have a power role, KK will flip PR, and the setup is balanced. That does NOT make a balanced setup.

Use your fucking head for a minute.

[hohum]

Lester: fix your tags.

[hohum]

What happens in the event of a tie?

You know what?

Unvote, Vote cateraction

Go play in some newbie games.

[hohum]

@hohum: No mass claim. Not Day 1. Regardless of how many PRs we flip. Just, no. We don't hand the Mafia a blueprint to the town for them to pick optimal nightkills.

Go back and reread. I'm pushing for a D2 mass claim.

The chance for the town to break the game is better than the chance for scum to kill optimally. It will be much easier to catch scum if we know what we're dealing with here.

[hohum]

an informed majority has a better chance than an uninformed majority. This isn't a balanced game! That means it's breakable.

[hohum]

I think 4 scum in a 12 person game is unlikely. It's still also very unlikely that we've found 3 PRs by accident on D1. 2 seems a tad more likely, though still quite improbable. If we have 2 PRs then I *might* be able to buy the fact that one of them is lying.

I might back off my push for a mass claim on D2 if our lynch target flips vanilla.

[hohum]

qwints: cateractoin was the first to 5 votes, so he's going to be lynched over KK right now.

[hohum]

JESUS

@MOD how about at least a reveal on that flip please!? The suspense is killing me!

[hohum]

Word.

I'm definitely lucky instead of smart. That was a surprising but beneficial result. If I had it to do over again I probably would have let KK get lynched.

ABR: What was your night action and why?

[hohum]

why the vote for qwints?

[hohum]

Okay my yute! I can tell this is going to be a somewhat more entertaining of a game with you in it.

[hohum]

oh, and thanks for the congrats. Mind sharing your thoughts though?

[hohum]

Holy misattribution batman! Who the fuck is still pushing for a mass claim?

Since the day began I haven't mentioned anything about a mass claim. Instead of asking me whether or not I still supported a mass claim you're merely shoving words into my mouth.

The flip actually caused me a moment of pause, and I did say at some point yesterday during the long, drawn out and distracting argument that occurred at the end of the day that I would only be in favor of a mass claim if SOMEONE ELSE (and my choice was KK) flipped a PR -- and obviously that didn't happen.

[hohum]

@kk @qwints: nice to see you're working together as a team though.

[hohum]

As someone else pointed out yesterday (I forgot who) there's still a chance that LK lied about his alignment and I claimed for nothing.

[hohum]

I'm not sure if a mass claim is the best idea, but there is now about a 75% chance we have at least 5 power roles. Also, the mod has said that he devised a game with all power roles a couple times. I am completely willing to believe we're in a game with an abnormally large number of town PRs and am willing to discuss a mass claim.

I don't know how you came up with this figure. In my head we only have 2 confirmed PRs at this point (including me). From someone else's perspective we only have one: because I might be lying and LK might be lying.

I don't know where you get a "75% chance of 5" figure from. Seems quite contrived. I think you're role fishing.

Vote: qwints

[hohum]

so it was you!

I believe your math is off though. I don't feel like crunching the numbers myself right this second but I think you're assuming too much.

[hohum]

@RedCoyote: Nice wall of text.

I perused it, but it's early and I'm tired but I do have a couple of initial comments.

A) Nobody hammered. The time-limit expired and it was a tie vote between cateraction and KK.

B) You say that conclusions can't be drawn from the KK wagon but you proceed to build cases against people based on the fact that they were present on the cateraction lynch.

It's a common scum tactic when a mis-lynch occurs to cycle through a wagon and lay blame on thick. You seem to be imploring a similar tactic with cateraction's accidental lynch.

I don't like where you're going with this right now but I'm not coherent enough to explain why.

[hohum]

Light-kun has claimed Doctor; he remains the Doctor, without a cc

If LK were lying about his doc claim and the other doc were present would you want him or her to counter-claim?

[hohum]

oh and LK: Who did you protect last night and why?

[hohum]

What planet are both of you from that me jokingly asking ABR to reveal his night action == hohum supports a massclaim still or hohum is rolefishing?

I didn't honestly expect him to answer that question.

The two of you are stretching, hard.

[hohum]

@alex I also like how you asked the EXACT SAME QUESTION to LK that I asked one post later.

[hohum]

And you were joking because? We should've guessed you were joking exactly how?

I was joking around with ABR because Mafia is NOT SRS BSNS, and only drama queens should treat it as if it is. Did you see me pursue ABR when he didn't answer? No. Did you see me throw a FoS, or a pressure vote on him? No. That's the indicator. That's why you should have realized I was joking.

??? Explain please.

Are you fucking kidding me!?!? You're not even paying attention to the thread! You're just skimming through it, tunneling in on people who you think you can throw shit at.

Quote tags fixed by mod.

[hohum]

Post 522, then the very top of your post, 523. This *JUST* happened. Quit being lazy and do your own homework.

[hohum]

If LK were lying about his doc claim and the other doc were present would you want him or her to counter-claim?

Yes, I would.

Then I could ask them why they didn't do their job and defend the Tracker.

I suspect others will feel the same way as you. If a doc CC comes along do you think that will prove or disprove LK's claim? What do you think is the likelihood of two docs being present in the game?

[hohum]

I've been accused a couple of times of being angry. I realize that I may take a harsh tone in some of my writings but I'm never angry. The problem with forum-based communication is true emotional state rarely if ever bleeds through and it's super easy to misinterpret someone's signals.

@Alex: you and I must find a way to stop bickering and work with each other.

As for the rest of the group, I'd like to do a quick straw poll. Same question I asked RC, please:

If a doctor exists in this game, would you want him or her to counter-claim LK? If so, what do you think the odds of having two docs in this game realistically are.

Secondly, would a doc counter-claim be viewed as generally helpful, if either LK or the counter claimer were lynched to confirm scum?

[hohum]

Hohum: This is *basic* Mafia principles, here. If there is another doctor, they should definitely come forward. The odds of having two legitimate doctors in a game of this size is

0%

.

That's what I figure. I had to reread the thread today and do some soul searching and this is what I came up with:

The crux of the situation here is that I really screwed up my D1 play quite badly. Alex is spot on when he says I tunneled far too much on qwints. I still think qwints is scum but I no longer trust my own judgement. I don't know if I'm screwing up further by doing a full claim now, but here it goes.

I've got some sort of strange hybrid doc-jailkeeper role. "Paranoid Doctor" as the mod called it. This was the reason I didn't protect the tracker last night. If I protect someone, they stay alive but they also lose their ability to use their powers. What good is a confirmed tracker if he's going to show up dead the following day anyways? In retrospect I should have protected him anyways and sacrificed myself so that he could have posted at least *1* result.

Unvote

I don't care who goes next. Me, LK or qwints.

I leave that decision up to the rest of you.

[hohum]

we got lucky with the D1 lynch, so I'm hopeful that my play here didn't do too much in the way of negative impact.

[hohum]

Given hohum's claim and archaist's flip, I don't buy LK's vanilla doctor claim. It seems to me we have a bunch of weak power roles and a normal doctor doesn't fit. I, also, have a weak power role.

If people don't like a mass claim, I'd suggest we have one vanilla townie claim. It's quite possible we don't have any and learning we're all power roles would give us quite a bit of information.

I'm liking this qwints guy more and more.

[hohum]

favoring an LK/ABR pairing.

[hohum]

Whether or not it's a normal game is pretty irrelevant considering the fact that in the either of the mini queues the mods pretty much have carte blanche with their setups. The list mods don't really bother to check.

[hohum]

@Mod: how about prodding LK, please

[hohum]

also please note that normal setups =/= vanilla setups

[hohum]

Yes, yes, hindsight is a bitch, isn't it?

[hohum]

Hohum: I protected Archaist, obvious

Note to self: never give LK the BoTD again.

Unvote, Vote: LK

Let's get this lynch done.

@LK: Is there a third or fourth scum? If so, please out your partner(s) now!

KTHNXBYE!

[hohum]

On second thought, that post was very reactionary.

Unvote

I need to sleep on it, because I could buy the presence of a mafia role blocker.

[hohum]

more WIFOM, \o/

huzzah

[hohum]

I don't like LK's use of the term "obvious" though.

[hohum]

Then again, the complete second half of your post is WIFOM as well

I guess I could be naive doctor.

I have a tendency to believe qwints at this point.

anyways, I'm done multiposting.

[hohum]

Which one what? You asked a question out of context deliberately so that I can't give you an answer.

I'm waffling on qwints because I think I tunneled on him too much D1.

After considerable thought I'm inclined to believe LK. Mostly because of what you said coupled with the fact that there was a mafia godfather in the game. The existence of a godfather goes a long way towards backing up the notion of the existence of a role blocker.

I also came out of N1 predisposed to not believing LK, which is why I counter-claimed.

Basically I've got nothing at this point. Any permutations I explore lead to WIFOM. About the best I course of action I can personally come up with is to revert back to my original suspicions.

That would be (less likely)qwints/kk or a (more likely)qwints/alex pairing.

ABR replaced in he's been less than helpful, so I could see ABR paired with any of the three of them.

The only other viable option on the table is to lynch the one who was the most vocal about lynching LK.

You have hedged these admissions by the claim that anti-town isn't necessarily scummy and through references to LK's meta, BUT even LK has admitted that he usually has more justification for his votes (336).
You seem to be determined to keep a player around who you've acknowledged is anti-town and who has admitted that his play doesn't entirely match the meta.

And out of everything that happened yesterday, this single statement stuck out in my mind, because he's basically saying in no uncertain terms: "LK needs to be lynched, hohum doesn't know what he's talking about"

So I guess I'll go back to:

Vote: qwints

[hohum]

Alex: My suspicions of you never subsided. I went into the night thinking the very thing I was so vocal about yesterday: Everyone's got a power role of some sort. I didn't want to protect anyone and block their night action (though in hindsight that was a piss poor decision), so I put myself into the mindset of "how do I stop the mafia's NK?" so I chose someone from my list of suspects with the intention of having them jailkept.

My night choice was you, alex.

[hohum]

I was gambling on the fact that you were going to submit the kill. Apparently you didn't.

[hohum]

More qwints lynching, please.

[hohum]

Also, most of your arguments against my qwints case yesterday were craplogic, and it reeks of you, KK and qwints all tag-teaming me. The only thing you're trying to do with your last post is draw me into a long and distracting debate about my game play. Having to resort to meta to support your position is scummy.

[hohum]

I also want to point out something else. The level of your arrogance and opportunism is blinding. You picked me because you think I'm a weak target. You've as much as admitted that already. The opportunism comes in because I don't see you defending qwints against anyone else who has brought up some legitimate points against him.

[hohum]

If you seriously think you were instrumental in the cateraction lynch then you are arrogant. You're trying to take credit for what amounted to an accident. Tecnically I have more of a right to take credit for that lynch than you do because it was my vote that put him at 5 before KK, but I'm not going to seriously sit here and attempt to take credit for a poorly orchestrated lynch.

Why are you trying so hard to earn town points?

[hohum]

Go back and reread day 1. The reason I voted cateraction is right there in black and white.

[hohum]

Where are you going with this? I hope to god you have a point and you're not just trying to be a distracting little shit.

What exactly are you accusing me of that isn't blatantly obvious? Bussing?

It's pretty clear that the vote was entirely reactionary.

[hohum]

Again, someone who has to continually resort to meta to support their position is fucking scummy.

You're the only person here who consistently attacks my positions on EVERYTHING.

I'm getting really fucking tired of arguing with you. You're condescending attitude isn't helping anyone. You're just pissed off because I refuse to sit here and stroke your ego.

Piss off.

[hohum]

You say you're using my meta to DEFEND me but you're continually beating me over the head with in. That's in exceedingly poor taste.

First you say I'm anti-town, then you say I'm scummy. Which is it? It can't be both, and it certainly can't be one over the other when it suits you.

[hohum]

My opinion on lynching archon is that we need to be lynching you.

[hohum]

Seriously? Did you miss the 80 dozen or so reasons I gave yesterday?

[hohum]

Please note the sig. I will catch up on monday.

[hohum]

I'm back. I will catch up today.

[hohum]

People shouldn't call fellow players

bitch

....

anyway....

Are you gonna keep playing like this or there's hope that you can improve your content?

If so... when?

Your attitude really sucks.

[hohum]

here are my thoughts after a reread.

I really want either qwints or alexhans lynched. I think those are the only two overtly scummy people in the game right now. I've been outlining reasons why all day today and part of the day yesterday, but I will recap for clarity's sake.

Alexhans has been beating me over the head with my meta most of the game, and he is starting to take a really piss poor attitude with other people than me in the lasts few posts. He has consistently torn my arguments apart to discredit me yet he maintains the stance that he's defending me. He's admitted as much as he admits that he thinks my play is week. He's continually trying to say things I'm saying and doing are scummy so that he can go "look, I told you so" no matter which way I flip.

At minimum his condescending and combative "holier than thou" attitude is NOT HELPFUL.

Qwints seemed a bit over defensive at first and so I kept prodding. The more I prodded the more comfortable I felt about my vote. I especially didn't like the abandonment of the KK wagon, and his stances on LK at all, and I'm inclined to believe LK's claims.

Not sure a bmq lynch is as likely to be productive right now.

[hohum]

also the fact that alex is STILL using meta, this late in the game, really is scummy. Meta can be useful for helping make lynch decisions during D1 but by D2 there should be enough information in THIS game to draw a real case on.

If you can't support your positions on various people based on what's in THIS game by now as long as the thread is (28 pages now) without continually resorting to meta, then it's because your opinions are only convenient to you and not because you have convictions about them.

[hohum]

I'm pondering qwints' comments on alex. he may have a point.

more qwints votes please.

[hohum]

hohum is... hohum, and we can't expect Brian to vote himself.

Silly old bear.

I really have been useless this game

It's okay.

I mostly trust RC's judgement so I'm going to hammer. If I'm wrong you can lynch me tomorrow.

Unvote, Vote: Brian

Quote tags fixed by me!

[hohum]

@RC: hope you'll be ready to spoon-feed my opinion to me tomorrow because I'll need some guidance.

[hohum]

OH I CAN'T EVEN GET THE HAMMER RIGHT
I suck.

[hohum]

I can let a grudge go. I understand what he's doing. He's playing poke the bear.

[hohum]

Fail.

Sorry for falling off like that.