Mini 747 Over.

[Hoopla]

I'm here.

[Hoopla]

I'm worried about the smiley abuse this early in the game.

vote: ZEEnon

[Hoopla]

BUMP BUMP BUMP..

Alright, hmm, what will get the town talking, I'm Day Cop: I investigated Khelvaster. He's scum.

Unvote: Vote:Khelvaster

For real? What made you choose Khelvaster, and why did you use this power so early?

[Hoopla]

Unvote, vote: Theinin

[Hoopla]

Unvote, vote: Theinin

Care to actually give a reason on that one? Because just randomly voting doesn't help us.

Shadow Knight answered for me, and you should answer his question - but I have one for him;

Why are you uncomfortable with what are essentially random votes, even if there are four of them? I think we're sensible enough not to mislynch randomly.

[Hoopla]

I can't say that I'm comfortable with 4 votes on one person on page 2. Anyone want to back off of him for now?

@ xofelf- I don't think we're out of the random voting stage just yet, at least I haven't seen enough to build a real case on anyone yet. Have you?

I haven't seen anything to do that yet, you are correct. But, i can't help but see that we're delaying actually GETTING there by all this playing around.

It isn't really a process that can be fast-tracked, unless someone does something outrageously fishy, or makes a (serious) early role-claim. You can't build cases with air.

[Hoopla]

eh good point. I just get frustrated when a game seems to be going longer than it needs to. *shrugs* but that's just me.

You should just fess up now then.

[Hoopla]

Why am I not comfortable with someone being more than halfway to lynch without a case being made against them? Just personal feelings I guess. If someone gets that high in the vote count, I want to be able to see reasons for voting. Maybe its because a bandwagon is the opposite of random voting. (I.E. once a pattern emerges, its no longer random.) I keep feeling like you're stating the obvious (bandwagons keep the game from stalling). I never said I'm against bandwagons, I said I'm against random bandwagons. Please don't misrepresent what I'm saying in the future.

I don't want to deviate too far into a theory debate about 'is there such a thing as random voting', but I think early bandwagons are healthy. After the first few pages the game can often fracture into different paths with a variety of cases emerging - when this happens it's rare you'll get everyone's opinion on everything presented. Bandwagons are often something that will attract the focus of the majority of the town, which serves for greater comparison.

As I mentioned before, once the game breaks away, to compare and determine suspicion, you often have to do it based on what X thinks of Y, compared to how Z defended N. When more variables come into play, it's far easier for scum to be evasive and focus on areas that hold weaker comparison purposes. The 'random' voting really holds a lot more information than some think - and bandwagons are an excellent source.

[Hoopla]

I'm reading now. Already caught one scum on page two... (lucky for Panzer it isn't him)
Finding the others now.

That's a little optimistic, can't question the endeavor though. Welcome btw.

*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*

I have a general theory question I'd like to pose to anyone who wants to answer;

What makes an important D1 lynch for you? I know there are a wealth of circumstances to select from - but do you think it is always as simple as lynching the most suspicious player?

[Hoopla]

I have a general theory question I'd like to pose to anyone who wants to answer;

What makes an important D1 lynch for you? I know there are a wealth of circumstances to select from - but do you think it is always as simple as lynching the most suspicious player?

But to answer your question...I don't think it's as simple as that. It's not lynching the most suspicious player that I think you should shoot for, than the one who isn't helping anybody or doesn't look like they will in the future. I think the best lynch you can have is one that helps as many people as possible at the same time. Though it is very difficult...which is part of the fun of the game I find.

I think this is a real nothing answer that does little to address the question. I've derived that as you'd rather policy-lynch a lurker/idiot than eliminate an active scummy player, right? If so, in what situations would you deviate from this to lynch a very active player to derive information from?

I believe that it shouldn't always come down to lynching the most suspicious one, but the one that will give the town the most information. In my opinion Day 1 is about pressuring the players that you find most suspicious, and then when you have a great deal of information avalible, choose the one that the town feels will prepare the town best for Day 2. If that player is extremely scummy? That's just icing.

Information is a premium in this game - I presume the alignments you'd generally like to know are those who are interacting and linking themselves with many players. I think assessing the town's capacity for critical thinking and activity early is important to determine what sort of approach is best. From what I've seen so far, this town is quite active and players are making decent posts from limited information.

In light of this, I'm currently for lynching someone less active, or with a lower capacity to evaluate logically later in the game, where it becomes more important. This means when we do make a lynch in the future for information, we have extra days data to work with.

I remember recently, someone did a small study from newbie games suggesting that lynching scum D1 doesn't actually increase the town's chances of winning because you're limiting possible buddying links you may have been able to find if you had an extra day's information with them both alive. Therefore, lynching someone who isn't useless is a perfectly viable D1 play, if you the town think they can afford it.

I generally have a more mathematical approach to mafia, and I'm still trying to derive what optimal D1 play is for town - but unless scum slips up drastically, I'm leaning toward lynching a player who is going to be less uselful toward the end of the game. Because the percentages between how confident you can be about someone being scum on D1 is so minimal, it makes sense logically to make up for this in a different area. Potential usefulness isn't exactly a commodity that can be quantified, but I deem it as a very important factor, particularly in D1 lynches.

Unvote, vote: xofelf

[Hoopla]

So you think by lynching me you'll lose a "less useful" player? Thanks ever so much for that compliment.
I may not be a very EXPERIENCED player, that is true, but I'm not useless. And if you think I'm being useless in THIS game, you should have seen some of the past games I've been in, which the mod could attest to if he wasn't the mod right now.

No i was not saying that i'd rather lynch lurkers/idiots. Not if there are blatantly scummy people present. If that's all you're getting from people, then yes go for it. But if you have better options, go with that instead.

I know others in this game won't determine their optimum D1 lynch the same way as I. If anything, it's more a motivation to get others to provide worthwhile posts early in the game.

The main point I was trying to express is that if D1 lynches are based on the least information in the game, they are more than likely to be closer to random end of the spectrum. So, this is the most ideal time to make any policy-lynches or lynches based on benefitting the town. To me, improving stock in those other areas is a more viable choice if suspicion is not overly conclusive. I'm more than prepared to shift my vote around to encourage constructive activity, or to lynch someone that is appearing more suspicious in proportion to a town-benefitting lynch.

[Hoopla]

That is incredibly scummy. I think lynching on info is terrible, because a town lynch provides very little info regardless of ties..A scum lynch provide vast ammounts of info, almost regardless of ties. Every townie should be tryng to lynch the scummiest player. Mathematics is futile in determing lynchs. You lynch the scummiest player unless a claim is made. A Good claim.

By lynching scum D1, you're minimising the amount of ties - I'm not saying lynching scum D1 is a bad thing, but it isn't the worst thing in the world if it does happen because I believe it doesn't lower the town's chances of winning. There is an argument that suggests having three scum in a game would alter this logic, as there still is an element of linking by having two alive, but I'm still unsure and consider lurking, laziness or general unhelpfulness viable factors in choosing a lynch.

The main point of my argument is that unless scum slip up signifigantly, the percentage between the scummiest and second scummiest player is so miniscule, it's quite close to random. So I'd rather keep the most helpful, active players alive who are capable of spotting scum-links when we do hit one.

[Hoopla]

Hoopla, if you can link me to that study that showed lynching scum d1 doesn't help town too much, that would be wonderful.

Sure, I'll work on that now.

[Hoopla]

Hoopla, if you can link me to that study that showed lynching scum d1 doesn't help town too much, that would be wonderful.

Sure, I'll work on that now.

Okay, I only had about 20 minutes of searching before I had to duck off to work. All I could find relating to the topic was a post by Fenchurch in an ongoing game, and then a post by Mr. Flay that merely references the topic. Sorry!

No i don't have extra info. I just happen to know KMD very well....why would he tell me his set up and then let me play? I was just pointing out that you shouldn't assume that this will be like other Minis....It MAY be..But doesn't HAVE to be.

It still is a Mini Normal and would have been reviewed, I don't think you should be expecting any huge twists in a Mini

Normal

.

[Hoopla]

Hoopla - your post 115.
firstly, this seems a meta discussion and possibly not suitable for the middle of a game. i ended up doing this in a recent game and it got me in so much trouble.

moving on to actually responding to your post though, all i can see is that if you are a townie, you have to self vote and get yourself lynched. seriously, that is the lesson i got. as the only garuneteed townie, have to kill yourself.
but i ain't advocating that at all, please don't think that is what i think

why the vote or Elf though, i didn't see any explanation.

post 121 - oh, you lynching elf cause you think they aren't scum??
i don't think i'll be able to read you the rest of the day now, i can't follow your logic

I understand it probably isn't the ideal time for meta-discussion, but I felt like I should put it out there as I probably have different views when determining a lynch D1 to others. I think you're misinterpretting my main point, which suggests the percentage margin between suspicion on D1 is very slim unless scum slip up. So it makes sense to get any policy lynches out the game if players have forth-right views of particular style of play - I think meta discussion is just as important as scumhunting, so you know where everyone stands.

As for my vote for xofelf, she hasn't offered anything I would consider substancial. Isolation posts 11 and 12, strike me as odd, and flicking through the rest I think she scrapes the surface of topics then backs down before probing. To me, I think this is possibly a scum manoever, appearing active and offering their opinion, but making sure not to bring too much attention to themself. If she isn't scum, I think it's still wishy-washy play that isn't a trait I need in a town.

[Hoopla]

I'm pretty ticked off with ZEEnon - don't play if you aren't having fun. It's the players that make the game worth playing, that includes you! Regardless of this, I can't help but read that outburst in a town-light. I wouldn't put it past him being a mere vanilla townie, with no exciting night action to use.

Hey Khelv, why only the FoS on xofelf? How solid are you with your charter vote?

[Hoopla]

Unvote, Vote: nicoliosgotpolio

[Hoopla]

Unvote, Vote: nicoliosgotpolio

yeah, too out of the blue for that to stand up with no questioing. you just jumping on the wagon???

Sure, it seems like a pretty good wagon to jump on. Why aren't you voting her?

[Hoopla]

seriously hoopla, you think you can get away with that?
i ain't voting for her, i tend to be quiet slow changing votes around, but i was clearly wanting pressure on her
but you just to so blatantly just on a wagon, well, lets just say it doesn't inspire much confidence in your towniness...

I do realise i am just strating to get annoyed and upset with what seems like everyone else in the game now though...you, nico, panzer & erratus

Why do you think joining a bandwagon is a scumtell? I think it's perfectly healthy D1, particularly considering her lack of input.

[Hoopla]

Unvote, vote: geraintm

[Hoopla]

really? you are voting me? what for exactly, my not liking your jumping on the nico bandwagon with no explanation?

I think you're scum trying to feign town involvement, opportunisticly jumping on lurkers/less-involved players. In 138 you condemn my meta-discussion in 115 where I suggest policy-lycnhes are optimum on D1, then you seem to solely be targetting these players. Why is that?

I think it's a simple way for scum to slide through D1, without committing to any incriminating opinions early. Can you link me to your most recent games as scum - I've skimmed through a few of your town games.

[Hoopla]

So Hoopla, why did you vote Xofelf of the 'inactive' players?

For rubbish posting, nicoliosgotpolio is also guilty of that. I chose to go after xofelf because she didn't publicly express any V/LA issues, and because I thought she seemed a little voletile, or possibly more readable than some others. I think I'm developing a habit of targetting what I deem weaker players early.

[Hoopla]

unvote: Vote:Hoopla

for all the BS she has spewed this last page. Seriously, You OMGUSed and have been going after lurkers and admittedly going after easy targets.

I switched my vote because Hoopla has a better chance to be scummy then Nicolios cause Nicolios' could be in newbie mistake territory and it is quite clear that Hoopla was intentionally trying to pick on weak players and is now OMGUSing Geraintm.

I think I'm still searching and trying to adapt my own playstyle to fit with others, but my comments and tactics have merit. Picking on weaker players early seems perfectly valid, as the only time you really ever find scum on D1 is when they slip. Or conversely, developing town reads early can narrow the scum-pool.

[Hoopla]

Limited access for the next two days, sorry.

[Hoopla]

I gotta agree. Taking on the weakest players and lurkers is definitely a scum tactic. I know I've managed to get a few people lynched as scum, simply from hunting lurkers. For that reason, more than any other,

unvote, vote Hoopla

I disagree completely. It's in the town's interests to pressure weaker players, and persuade lurkers to contribute more. The more data we have to work with this first day, the better. Putting players out of their comfort zones has a far better chance of creating an adverse reaction, than 'standard' scum-hunting.

From your post it almost sounds as if you have a model of play you expect scum to adhere to each game. I think what's more interesting is that you're using your own scum-play to incriminate others, but I think moreso it's a cleverly disguised defense post too. It's almost a 'this is what I do as scum, I'm not doing this now' type post, which subliminally justifies your game so far.

As far as geraintm goes, I'm satisfied with his recent posts.

Unvote

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla- its not that I have a standard list of "things scum do". Its more that I don't have a lot to go on here. Normally,

I look for things that strike me as odd (for whatever reason), at that point, I do an in depth read focused on that player and how they interact with others.

I'm not clearing myself with an anti-lurkerhunting statement and I know that. I am merely using my previous experience as a tool for finding scum. My logic is that if I've pulled it off as scum, then other scum can pull it off.

The bolded section is the main point I want to address here - I think it's a dangerous mindset to get stuck in.

When playing as town, you're searching for a minority group. It's quite easy for the human mind to naturally associate or assume suspicion of players that stand out, as they are the easiest to apply to this group. Odd play is important to note, but determining whether it is more likely to be motivated by scum or town play is even more important. In saying that though, it isn't overly difficult to evade heavy scrutiny as scum or town throughout the game (and particularly D1), so pressuring those lurking to submit their opinions is important to create links.

--

Deviating slightly, I'm of the firm belief the more active the town is, the more pressure it puts scum under to continue to lie. I think it's important to address the issue of lurking early to identify whether it is a problem, and whether policy lynches are warranted. If so, getting them done as early in the game as possible is ideal. If the town promotes a slow, lazy, low-information game, scum can quite happily lurk, rather falling into those 'standing out' slots which could be dangerous.

As much as it denies information the next day, I still think the chances of finding scum during the day with a productive, interactive town is higher than finding buddying links, with a lazier town still alive.

Tags Fix'd

[Hoopla]

Khelv he's only a goon meaning he has under 100 game post. It could have been 1 long game. He is reasonable noobish.

I think he's probably someone's alt, or at least had game experience elsewhere.

[Hoopla]

I am an old player but haven't played in a year or two.

I am not saying that we shouldn't push lurkers to contribute, but more that we shouldn't just immediately vote them and fling an accusation at them. Personally, I like to ask questions of lurkers and at least give them a chance to speak before defending themselves. The reason I'm not a fan of attacking weaker players is a simple matter of probability. A weaker player has a higher probability of panicking when pressed whether they are town or not. Since most games start out with 60-70% of us being town, we're more likely to lynch a newbie as town than as scum.

I'm not asking you guys to agree with my logic, but its how I feel and how I play. In short, if you want a body count, go the Dirty Harry route of investigation; if you want to catch scum, go the Colombo route.

Again, in the context of my post, you should read "taking on" as "attempting to lynch". I have no issues whatsoever with trying to get them involved or asking them to explain themselves. Now, once they've been given enough rope, weaker players generally hang themselves if scum because they eventually slip. This tactic works for lurking scum as well because generally, there is a reason they are lurking, be it because they play scum badly or because the more they say now, the more likely they are to be caught in a lie later.

That seems fair enough - I think this is just a difference in playstyle. My logic is this - who are you more likelier to catch as scum? A newbie, or a seasoned player? Of course, newer players are likelier to panic when pressured, and this should be taken into account. But like you say, they will slip up.

With such low information on D1, doesn't it make sense to target players who are likelier to give stronger clues to their alignment? Or at least target players that will be of less value later in the game?

--

SensFan (when you get in), what do you make of your predecessor's play so far?

[Hoopla]

Through page 7:

nico still needs to be lynched.
ZEEnon needs to be slapped.
gerain is looking scummy.
Shadow hasn't said much of late.

Can you elaborate on any of these Sens, rather than just throwing out random assessments?

[Hoopla]

I didn't really notice how quickly the deadline is approaching - we should really start considering making a lynch now. At the moment I don't consider Shadow that scummy, can the people voting for him or that are suspicious of him, give me some adequate reasons why? I'd much rather a nicolio lynch, which is where I'm putting my vote for now.

Vote: nicoliosgotpolio

[Hoopla]

We still have 4 days, There is plenty of time for discussion. Also I'm still of the thought that you are the best lynch Hoopla.

Is this still mainly due to your reasoning in

187

, or do you have any more to add? Is your vote strong enough not to switch to a second choice in the event you can't get me lynched?

[Hoopla]

Oh, I almost forgot about xofelf since she was replaced.

Anyway. I think the nicolio wagon is too easy and I find its supporters mildly scummy. I don't remember the specifics of the case against her, but looking through her posts the only overtly scummy/off thing I find is the post in the early game that drew all this attention to her. It seems to me like one of those dumb things that leads to a poor D1 lynch because everyone latches onto it. It's not even that scummy, just bizarre.

Anyway, a few others rubbed me the wrong way a bit in my skimming of players' isolated posts but for now I'm going to stick with my previous suspicions as well as my general dislike of the nicoliowagon.

Vote: ZazieR

Sometimes finding scum is easy - you obviously must have some reason to think she is town-aligned or you wouldn't consider the wagon on her scummy.

I hope your player findings aren't solely the result of isolation reads too - context means a lot. Can you give me a more thorough report on what you think of nicolio?

[Hoopla]

Erratus Apathos, while not voting for Nicolios, still suspected her while letting Hoopla off the hook. He decided to target the other noob, SK.

Shadow isn't a noob - he seems more competant than the majority of players here.


@ ZEEnon - you don't have a vote cast currently, do you have any thoughts before we get too close to the deadline?

I still think we should be trying to get a majority lynch - having the town's kill decided by 3 or 4 players doesn't seem like a good idea at all. As much as there is still 3 days until deadline, I don't want to end up in a situation where our last-minute chosen lynch claims a power-role and we have to scramble to reselect. And if you consider how weak discussion is currently, waiting for the sake of using all our possible time is just plain stupid.

[Hoopla]

Nicol is a weak player. SK is a scummy one, as is hoopla, for reasons I have previously stated. That's the difference, and that is also why I didn't call you out.

Cephrir, you are definitely on to something. It seems Zazier and EA both thought Hoopla was fine while Nicolios was scummy, despite the relative similarities of their slipups. Zazier was much more blatant about defending Hoopla, whereas EA didn't mention him once, so I'll

Vote: Zazier

Teaming up on noobs is a classic scumtell.

Hey Khelv, can you help me answer something;

You think I'm scummy. Instead of voting for me, you elect to vote for someone who defends me. Surely the crime I have committed (in your mind) would outweigh someone with opposing views to what I have done.

Also, why do you think nicolio is innocent?

[Hoopla]

@EA: I'm finding Hoopla scummy because he simply wants to lynch weak players, not necessarily scummy ones. He is saying this under the false pretenses of day 1 lynching the person with the biggest slip and he wants to induce this by attacking new players and bad players. This is inherently scummy because only scum would want to look at reactions from a specific player instead of trying to get reactions from the entire game.

I don't necessarily want to lynch weaker players - I'm saying when there is no information in the game, it's sensible in my eyes to focus on players who I deem more likely to give deeper clues to their alignment. I find it inherently scummy when a player tries to address everyone in the game (on D1) - particularly when they aren't overly active. I see it as a simple way for scum to feign interaction and fly undetected.

[Hoopla]

Way to rephrase what I said. You want to attack weak players in order to learn their alignment. Two ways to do that, make them claim or lynch them. What normal happens when A vanilla townie claims Vanilla? They get lynched. If they claim a Power Role then we've outted a Power Role. Neither are good.

I think you are misrepresenting my cause, although you seem determined to skew my words. I don't understand the relevance of your final point though - when anyone is at L-1, they're expected to claim - this isn't a unique concept held for weak players. What is your point here?

[Hoopla]

EBWOP: Also, by attacking weak players they are more likely to act scummy under pressure for bad reasons, so you're not getting "hints to there alignments" you getting them to look scummy.

Also I believe you were the one argueing that lynching a bad player was better then lynching a mafiate earlier in the day.

Who are you more likely to catch slipping up as scum, a weak player, or someone well established in the game? There is an element of 'panicked townie' that I've already talked about, and that should be taken into consideration.

You're again misrepresenting my words - I was suggesting on D1, without major slips from a player, the percentage difference between someone being scum or town over the second choice lynch is so minimal, it makes sense to base a lynch not solely on suspicion. Activity, and potential helpfulness

should

weigh into a lynch decision on D1, when these lynches are closest to random.

[Hoopla]

Hey charter - you haven't made a post more than a sentence long in almost two weeks, what are you playing at?

[Hoopla]

This is going to be an ugly, almost random lynch if we don't actually come to some sort of consensus on who the best choice is. We need to decide now - I'm sorry if anyone wants to procrastinate for another few hours, but I don't want someone claiming something useful with 6 hours to spare. Come on guys!

I'll get this started - I've expressed nicolio is my optimum lynch choice today, but I could be persuaded to SensFan or Zazie. WAKE UP EVERYONE!

[Hoopla]

This is going to be an ugly, almost random lynch if we don't actually come to some sort of consensus on who the best choice is. We need to decide now - I'm sorry if anyone wants to procrastinate for another few hours, but I don't want someone claiming something useful with 6 hours to spare. Come on guys!

I'll get this started - I've expressed nicolio is my optimum lynch choice today, but I could be persuaded to SensFan or Zazie. WAKE UP EVERYONE!

Ummm...mindless wagonning much? Care to explain WHY you 'could be persuaded' to vote me?

Speak for yourself - have you actually read any of your own posts? Spoiler: They're mindless assertions that tack on the back of pre-existing suspicion. You use being a replacement as your excuse to offer agree/bandwagonning posts without providing any unique analysis or thoughts to the game, see this quote;

I'm very confidant. You forget that I replaced in on page 10. Pretty much all there was to say about why she was very scummy had been said several times. That's what people do when they replace, they look back at what happened previously, and share whether or not they agree.

I know you have meta of being a shit/lazy player, but I don't think you deserve to get off that lightly. See, these sort of posts frustrate me;

Through page 7:

nico still needs to be lynched.
ZEEnon needs to be slapped.
gerain is looking scummy.
Shadow hasn't said much of late.

Actually, I just haven't had much to say. Is there something in particular you'd like me to address?

Everything that's happened...

nico still needs to be lynched.

Probab;y pretty self-explanitory, I would think.

ZEEnon needs to be slapped.

Thinks that we are all puppets, playing this game for his amusement.

gerain is looking scummy.

Looked really bad when jumping on Hoopla, iirc. I know it was around that spot, I can go back and look later, if need be.

Shadow hasn't said much of late.

He went from being very scummy to quiet. Not good.

[Hoopla]

I know you have meta of being a shit/lazy player, but I don't think you deserve to get off that lightly.

Back that up right now. Or I

will

vote you, and

will not

move said vote today.

Do you mean 'back up' as in you're offended - or do you mean, justify why I think this of you?

*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*

To Zazie - my opinion is perhaps skewed due to you coming in and replacing xofelf, but reading through your posts I get a vibe that is hard for me to quantify, hence why I said 'I could be persuaded', moreso than anything too cutting.

[Hoopla]

I am incredibly offended, but I would like to see you even

attempt

to justify it, given how it has no truth whatsoever.

Easy tiger, it's just a game. The main reason I think this is from an ongoing game we are now both dead in, and from reading through some of the newbie games you've IC'ed in. I encourage you to prove me wrong and show me your worth throughout this game. Maybe I have unreasonable expectations of people, but I have nothing to appologise for.

[Hoopla]

Are you really voting me just because I think you're a bad player?

[Hoopla]

Are you really voting me just because I think you're a bad player?

Because you called me a bad player without being able to back it up at all, and because you are also scummy, irrelevant of that.

But humour me. Are you really saying its unacceptable for me to not have any completely new world-shattering views after replacing in to a 10+ page game?

I'm not saying you need 'new world-shattering views', I'm stating it's simple to make a bunch of random assertions (see these types of posts;

this

,

this

,

this

etc) on the basis of other people's analysis. This is the luxury replacements have in games, picking and choosing what they want to respond to (it's essentially a lurk-pass) - and I'm not impressed with what you've chosen to submit when you joined, and since. Outside an OMGUS-based attack on EA, you haven't backed up

anything

, which is hilarious when your mantra when debating seems to revolve around definitive proof.

Why do you think I'm scummy?

[Hoopla]

It's frustrating isn't it? Seeing statements being made with justification your peers just can't follow. I can imagine the way you feel now is similar to how I feel when I see you try and justify your claims (or dodge them).

I will give you credit though, for a crafty play of sneaking a vote on me, without ever mentioning suspicion of me prior to me 'insulting' you - and then leaving it there (presumably until deadline) without providing any reasons at all. Lets just cut to the chase - you're voting me because you're upset I don't think you're good at mafia, and you're now scrambling to find suspicion on me (or dodge it completely).

Anyway, this is becoming an unnecessary tangent considering you aren't even my lynch choice for today. Since you're pressed for time - don't reply to this and spend it finding a reason for your vote on me.

[Hoopla]

Mod, how long until deadline?

FOS Hoopla. The only reason I can think that you could possibly get this worked up over one vote on herself, regardless of the reason, is being scum.

What do you think about Sens' and to a lesser extent Theinin's play so far?

[Hoopla]

How am I trying to generate a wagon on you, when I'm not voting you? The reason this became so drawn out is due to your enquiry as to why I could be persuaded to vote for you. The point being I have higher priorities, but am open to other player's takes on your behaviour.

The third point - I'd love to lynch scum, but I'm more stating it can be a lottery sometimes without major slips, which makes other lynch factors come into play more.

[Hoopla]

Khelv's vote on Hoopla makes me waiver on whether Hoopla is scum. Gonna stay on Khelv.

I'm unsure on Khelv - I think it looks like a 'well, it's her or me!' type vote. I don't think that is necessarily scummy though, I've seen town do this before.

[Hoopla]

Khelv's vote on Hoopla makes me waiver on whether Hoopla is scum. Gonna stay on Khelv.

I'm unsure on Khelv - I think it looks like a 'well, it's her or me!' type vote. I don't think that is necessarily scummy though, I've seen town do this before.

I don't even begin to understand why you are trying to justify his vote for you. However, you are wrong in this matter, he gave serious reasons that weren't "well it's a better lynch than me".

The post he referenced showed more suspicion, or showed preference to Zazie's lynch though. This is why I think this.

[Hoopla]

Then I guess Khelv was sane. That's a pretty strange kill, makes me wonder if we're all completely off.

It's gonna be hard to find scum in the Khelv wagon for me, it really seemed like the best one. But I'll have to check eventually.

It just seemed like they were going for a low-profile kill, although I don't see why. If they'd targetted someone with obvious ties to another player, I'd bet everyone would call WIFOM, and ignore any possible alignment information. Maybe it's an indication of how sloppily we've been playing as town - nobody really stands out as obv-townie which seems to generally happen after a while.

As for my vote, I'm unsure and have no desire to commit to anything yet. I'm going to do a proper read up of D1 to see where to take my line of questioning though.

[Hoopla]

Alright..

FoS:Cephrir and Hoopla

both seem like scum trying to tell us the kill was strange so that people don't analyze it. I especially dislike how cephrir calls it arbitrary. Has very strong tones of trying to get people to overlook it.

WIFOM here, but what what if scum did it because all the people in the limelight are town? Wouldn't it be wise to kill someone that was seemingly arbitrary so that we DO overlook it and lynch Nicolios, Sens, Shadow Knight, ect.?

If anything, a strange NK probably warrants more discussion as there aren't really any obvious answers. I think your analysis, albeit it WIFOM is plausible. I don't usually cling too heavily to many D1 suspicions, but I think everyone else should reassess also.

[Hoopla]

might have been a cop trying to lie low?

This is wrong or he wouldn't have been telling us how he hates this game is lowest priority. Also he was paranoid. If this was known to him he wouldn't care cause everyone is Scum.

you never get told you are paranoid do you??

Of course not - it's a useless role if you know.

Hey Cephrir, why are you making excuses already about being a bad player? This seems like you're just using this as an answer to anything someone could possibly incriminate you for - or an explaination for failing to do anything.

[Hoopla]

Woo scum fight! Is it just me or does the whole Panzer/charter thing look a little contrived? Carry on, gentlemen.

[Hoopla]

Woo scum fight! Is it just me or does the whole Panzer/charter thing look a little contrived? Carry on, gentlemen.

What looks contrived about it to you?

From what I've seen, charter seems to be a very aggressive player regardless of alignment, and although Panzer has acted oddly under pressure, I just get the feeling the argument looks a little staged and unnecessarily drawn out.

I'm curious to know why SensFan voted charter over Panzer though? Sens?

I also hated that comment

Course you would!

[Hoopla]

I'm curious to know why SensFan voted charter over Panzer though? Sens?

And why would I vote Panzer?

Tell me why you voted charter first.

[Hoopla]

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[Hoopla]

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[Hoopla]

Hoopla, that text is anti-Town, please stop it.

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[Hoopla]

Hoopla, that text is anti-Town, please stop it.

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Actually, yes. It blatantly hurts Town.

Unvote, vote: Hoopla

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[Hoopla]

Hoopla, that text is anti-Town, please stop it.

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Actually, yes. It blatantly hurts Town.

Unvote, vote: Hoopla

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And I don't want to have to highlight every post you make, to be able to read it. Not only is it annoying, but it vastly slows down any analysis or reread.

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[Hoopla]

Alright, I'm sorry, I won't write in rainbow any more. Just for you though, okay.

[Hoopla]

this game has gone downhill

Are you happy with that?

Mod says Happy Birthday Hoopla!

[Hoopla]

@Shanba- what are your thoughts regarding Cephrir in light of his recent posts? (Aside from the post above.)

The fact that he managed to find the urge to contribute only after being called out for non-contributing?

Yeah. That doesn't make me sit any easier.

What if he didn't contribute after he was called out for non-contributing? Would that be worse? Surely you'd jump on him again there - was there any way for him to remove suspicion after being called out? Because I don't think he is the only guilty of this crime.

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla- Let the accused defend themselves, unless you *know* his alignment...

This statement is presented in a way that makes it seem like you can only attack people, rather than defend them. I don't necessarily think Cephrir is town, but I think the way he was courted for his non-contribution was very trap-like.

[Hoopla]

@Shanba- what are your thoughts regarding Cephrir in light of his recent posts? (Aside from the post above.)

The fact that he managed to find the urge to contribute only after being called out for non-contributing?

Yeah. That doesn't make me sit any easier.

What if he didn't contribute after he was called out for non-contributing? Would that be worse? Surely you'd jump on him again there - was there any way for him to remove suspicion after being called out? Because I don't think he is the only guilty of this crime.

After you've been called out for non-contributing, it's already too late. I know it sounds like a catch-22, but it's not really. The scummy action has already been performed (the non-contributing).

When you consider how lacklustre the game has been toward the end of D1 and on D2, I think activity/contribution level is a weak area to attack, considering how many of us zoned out at different times. Although I do endorse a more active game.

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla- Let the accused defend themselves, unless you *know* his alignment...

This statement is presented in a way that makes it seem like you can only attack people, rather than defend them. I don't necessarily think Cephrir is town, but I think the way he was courted for his non-contribution was very trap-like.

And if it were me that felt that way, I would give him a chance to defend himself and should I think it was scummy, I would make it a part of a case built against Shanba. After all, the game is about lynching scum, not protecting townies. Its a thin line to be sure, but its an important one.

In a game where townspeople are the majority, it is far easier to identify someone as town, than scum. I think many games have a very high priority on scum-hunting when establishing town players is just as important. If anything it can be an effective scum-hunting tool as it narrows down your pool.

[Hoopla]

Hoopla: I was not here at those times. I know that sometimes a game can feel slow but it doesn't feel slow to a replacement, reading the game. All my judgements are relative, because I don't have the feel of the speed of the game at that time.

Who has contributed less that Cephrir?

Nicoliosgotpolio, Zazie as of the last month, and even myself and Shadow at times have been quite inactive. I think the point I was trying to make is, the active lurking and lack of contribution isn't nearly as damning as what it would be in a livelier game.

[Hoopla]

Woah, deadline is this soon? We've all been so lazy; out of the current candidates I elect geraintm for most scummiest so far. I think his posts seem forced, and almost has an air of carefulness about them. To be fair I don't really know his town-meta, so it's more of a general scumtell I am working with.

If necessary I'm also prepared to lynch Cephrir.

Happy birthday Hoopla! You have the same birthday as Zazie.

[Hoopla]

Is that a bad day to have a deadline? I live in the U.S, so wouldn't know.

I don't care.

[Hoopla]

I'm going to make my vote count;

vote: Cephrir

[Hoopla]

It's curious how little attention a deadline has got - I know it's a holiday and all, but still. Is this scum sitting on their laurels, quietly knowing a mislynch will happen if not much is done?

[Hoopla]

I'm sick of being accused of being scum for not voting. It's been happening in my other game too. I DON'T VOTE MUCH, I AM NOT TRYING TO AVOID RESPONSIBILITY FOR LYNCHES. Also, how can you possibly suspect me for "dragging someone else into the spotlight? Am I supposed to just sit here and get lynched?

Anyway,

Vote: Zazie

. I was suspicious of her before, and really, nicolio again? That's just sad.

Since I'm going to die today and I absolutely deserve it, I'll just say I get a bad feeling about Shadow and charter as well for no particular reason. I'll switch to Panzer if nothing has changed by the deadline because he's somewhat scummy and is certainly a lot more likely scum than I am.

I kind of like/agree with this post, the last half anyway. If you die and flip town I'm going to pursue cases on Shadow/charter tomorrow.

[Hoopla]

Ooh scum fight, nice bus Zazie.

[Hoopla]

Ooh scum fight, nice bus Zazie.

Anything to add to the discussion itself?

I'm happy spectating the last minute mudslinging.

[Hoopla]

So you just say something without backing things up?

Keep saying bad things about Cephrir, I like it.

[Hoopla]

Massclaim?

I don't know, I think we're almost certainly in lylo, having two cops and a roleblocker on our side seems almost balanced for 3 scum.

What do you think the second kill was from though, does a vig or SK seem more likely?

[Hoopla]

Okay, what should the order be for massclaim?

[Hoopla]

I think that means I'm next - I'm a townie.

[Hoopla]

I think geraintm needs prodding.

From behind.

I'd rather not do that. Sorry.

[Hoopla]

Not sure if I like that claim.but it's fair. Do you plan on giving us the investigation before night hits?

Why? Unless Shadow claims a killing role, I'm probably going to believe it. Why would scum get a second kill, and if nobody else is claiming (the kill) it makes it more believable than vanilla.

[Hoopla]

Not sure if I like that claim.but it's fair. Do you plan on giving us the investigation before night hits?

What don't you like about it?

Not sure if I'm going to reveal who I targeted today or not.

Presumably you'll be NK'ed though, so not clearing anyone for the next day seems silly.

[Hoopla]

FoS Panzer

for his claim

I'll look at Charter, because I'm not a huge fan of deja vu's.

I kind of agree, considering that vanilla or vanila wasn't mentioned in the PM at all - well mine at least.

[Hoopla]

Oh, my pm doesn't say anything my sanity, but I would assume I'm sane, but I suppose there is also the chance I investigated some form of investigation immune role. So we will have to consider that if we decide on this person.

I still think Panzer is scum. His doubting my claim looks like a way of throwing general suspicion on whoever he can. I don't know how else he can explain that other kill unless I did it.

Why'd you vig SensFan?

[Hoopla]

FoS Panzer

for his claim

I'll look at Charter, because I'm not a huge fan of deja vu's.

Seriously.. vanilla TOWNIE. It's obvious you knew what I meant. It doesn't matter what the role PM said.

FoS: Zazier

This will probably turn into a vote.

Hahaha, I so don't buy it.

[Hoopla]

Don't buy what? That zazie is argueing semantics to get a case started on me when this could very weel be Lylo?

Did you not look at your role PM before you claimed?

[Hoopla]

I think I'd like the wise Shanba to chime in with his thoughts, but I'm pretty confident Panzer is scum - geraintm for a likely buddy. Who's down for a Panzer lynch today?

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla
I'd like to see more discussion first as Panzer is right about one thing, it's probably Lylo. And he could explain his claim a bit more.


Also, a general question: Does anybody know if it'normal for a JoaT being able to protect himself?

That's valid, I can wait - as far as your Joat question goes, I think it's about as normal as a doctor self-protecting. Actually it may be more likely considering it's only one protection.

[Hoopla]

I think I'd like the wise Shanba to chime in with his thoughts, but I'm pretty confident Panzer is scum - geraintm for a likely buddy. Who's down for a Panzer lynch today?

Hoopla-Zazie scum team.

They are both very very eager for a lynch when it is most likely LYLO.

That's a huge reason I'm suspicious of Zazier. Semantics is not something you should use to try to push a lynch while we are in lylo.

Also Hoopla, please give me reasons as to why I'm scum.

At the moment it's by process of elimination. I believe charter's claim due to nobody else claiming the kill - and I believe Zazie is town based on this;

FoS Panzer

for his claim

I'll look at Charter, because I'm not a huge fan of deja vu's.

FoS Panzer

for his claim

I'll look at Charter, because I'm not a huge fan of deja vu's.

I kind of agree, considering that vanilla or vanila wasn't mentioned in the PM at all - well mine at least.

Exactly my point. It's not mentioned at all. The role PM says townie.

As I know exactly what the town PM says, it would be a ridiculously stupid gambit for scum to essentially guess what the townie PM says. They get it slightly wrong, they're going to expose themself. So that leads me to believe there is far more town motivation in both of these posts by Zazie.

Connect that with Panzer's vanilla claim makes him stand out a lot to me. It's interesting watching Shadow's half-assed attempts to deviate the attention elsewhere though.

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla- I didn't think there was really any debate about charter's claim. I currently consider him the most confirmed of all of us.

Shadow, I wasn't talking about your thoughts on charter's claim, I was more talking about you deflecting attention from Panzer, and pretending to be suspicious of him. The below post offers a half defense on Panzer, then strangely you're suspicious of him too. To me, it looks like you're in two minds whether to bus your buddy now and try and get some town cred, or fight to keep him alive. It looks like a post to keep your options open - and almost something you could reference the next day for both sides.

I don't like the idea of using semantics for a wagon on panzer. Especially when I nearly said vanilla myself as I've been thinking of myself as vanilla townie all game. Between that and the exchange Cephrir and Zazie yesterday, and her general behavior all game, I'm more inclined to think that Zazie is the right lynch for today. I was on the fence between Panzer and Zazie, but I have to go with my gut on this and I'll probably vote Zazie.

Here's another example of playing down the vanilla slip;

EBWODP- Oh. Well yeah, I suppose that isn't good, but I had to actually check my PM again before claiming otherwise I might have written vanilla too.

It's funny how you're suspicious enough to have him in your top 2, but you're still trying to find excuses for him.

Shadow: what do you think about my previous post talking about a town Zazie. Does that seem logical to you?

[Hoopla]

Vanilla was not a slip. The vanilla bit is unimportant. I spelled vanilla wrong too. Would you like to persecute me for that as well? It's not like I've looked at my role PM lately. I'm a vanilla townie aka plain old lynch scum townie.

Vote:Hoopla

for really trying to capitalize on this "vanilla" thing

The thing is though, you seem like an experienced enough player - I'm sure you've been in massclaim before. And I'm sure you've probably been in scenarios where a little flavor, or order of claiming can help clear/indicate alignment. It seems awfully wreckless for a town player to not check his role before claiming.

I think what it does though, is make Zazie look quite town. When I have myself, and charter as town it really does leave a small scum-pool. Yourself and Shadow are looking very very likely to me.

[Hoopla]

But if it means that much to you:
Panzer, what's the one thing jumping out the most when looking at your role PM?

Charter, I'm pretty sure I want to lynch Panzer now - but ^this is a good question by Zazie, so lets wait for his answer first which will hopefully kill off any last minute doubts I'm having.

As far as two roleblockers in one game - the last Mini I was in (691), had a roleblocker on each side. I'm not going to try and persuade you though - I trust you'll make an accurate decision either way.

[Hoopla]

4.Quoting- Do NOT post anything with exact quotes to anything given to you privately by either myself or another player (if your role allows this). You may paraphrase VERY LOOSELY, but no quoting. Don't quote anything from PMs, AIM, e-mail, or any other way you may be communicating with me or your scum buddies outside of the topic.

The answer to Zazie's question isn't breaking this rule. I'm ready to lynch Panzer now, but want to set up tomorrow's too;

Shadow, can you answer Zazie's question?

[Hoopla]

Also, we can stop this stupid discussion already. The mod has confirmed that Panzer is scum:

I've added samples of possible role PMs for vanillas to the bottom of my rules due to questions I have been asked via PM about people possibly breaking my rule about quoting role PMs. No rules have been broken as of now, but I feel that adding the PMs to the bottom of my rules makes things more fair. I should have put it there at the beginning of the game. But it's there now, and I'll say this. I will not guarantee that everyone got the exact same PM.

Also, regarding this quote, who wants to step forward that they contacted the mod about quoting PM's?

I PM'ed KMD asking about the legallity of the question you asked Panzer, which I then proxied to Shadow. It didn't break any rules - I'm ready to kill off Panzer and his buddy Shadow tomorrow though.

Vote: Panzer

[Hoopla]

Wow, that was really quick - a little too quick. Was Shanba even online during this period, I've been here on and off and didn't see his name pop up anywhere (his account settings are public).

Surely the next lynch should be Shadow, the way he tried to defend Panzer yesterday and deflect attention was just too obvious. I'm issuing no town credit for the last ditch vote-hop.

Due to the way claiming unfolded, I definitely think Zazie is town and highly value her opinion today. Today needs more Shanba though - what are your thoughts?

[Hoopla]

Let me clarify- I think that charter investigated Hoopla and got an innocent, and if Shanba is scum then he deserves the win because I've gotten nothing but townie vibes from him.

I thought he investigated me too - in fact I was almost certain of it, which is why I was a little more forthright yesterday. There were multiple times charter expressed suspicion for me on D1, here is a quote from that time-frame;

Ok, enough time to change to Hoopla. I'll vote Hoopla if others will too. Either Khelv or Hoopla is a great lynch today (also very possible scumbuddies as well if you go look at Hoopla's questioning of Panzers daycop claim).

Then after Khelv was lynched, at the start of D2 charter posted this;

I need to reread. Everything I've been thinking about this game is wrong apparantly.

From that point onward expressed no suspicion of me at all - and I almost speculate that some of his reasoning for vigging Sens was based on the tangle between me and him. With charter knowing my alignment, it perhaps painted Sens in a more negative light.

--

At the moment though, I'm very certain Shadow is scum and needs to die. The last scum could be geraintm or Shanba, but my money would be on geraintm.

[Hoopla]

All right, before anyone votes me, I'm going to come clean. I was hoping to wait till we had one more scum caught, but here it is. I lied about my ability. I'm the town doc.

I don't believe this for a second.

1) You lied about your role in massclaim - we could have had a cross protection going to keep our JOAT alive. You shouldn't have lied.
2) I think the town's powerroles are balanced as it is for 3 scum. Adding a possible cop+doc into the game would be very town biased, when you consider we already had a JOAT and an RB.
3) There is no 3.
4) The way you fought for Panzer yesterday about role flavour seems even more scummy now that we

know

you're definitely not a townie. Here's a quote;

EBWODP- Oh. Well yeah, I suppose that isn't good, but I had to actually check my PM again before claiming otherwise I might have written vanilla too.

This is a stupid, bad, stupid lie - if you were the doc, you wouldn't jump into the conversation to protect Panzer about flavor you don't know. Therefore your only motivation to do this was if you're scum partners.

[Hoopla]

OMG. Are you serious?? My thinking was simple. There had been only 1 kill per night 2 nights and charter was claiming the 2nd night kill the other night. That made me confident he was telling the truth, meaning he could protect himself just as he said he would. I said what I said about the claim because I really did almost claim vanilla instead of townie. It would have been a lie either way, but the point was still valid and I really didn't think he was scum at first.

My night choices were as follows:
Night 1- SensFan
Night 2- Shanba
Night 3- Hoopla

And are you forgetting we also had a town paranoid cop? Charter's death proves the scum have a roleblocker. I didn't want to claim today hoping I could protect you tonight and we could lynch the last scum tomorrow. My only hope is that whoever we lynch today is the roleblocker.

Charter's death doesn't prove the scum have a roleblocker - from what I know charter isn't adverse to gambits. I think it's also possible he was bluffing about the self-protect to try and WIFOM scum into killing elsewhere, thus giving him a decent chance of blocking the kill.

As you said, considering you were a plausible lynch target almost every day, wouldn't it make more sense not to lie? Because you must have been able to envisage a scenario the next day when you would have come under the microscope - you can't be that blind to miss the messy ties you left with Panzer? You say you wanted to make it through the night to try and save a kill, but the truth is, you didn't even try - nobody except me said they were going to vote for you.

If you really are a doctor, you've put the town in a really shitty position due to lack of foresight. The timing of the claim just makes so much more sense as scum than town. Sorry.

[Hoopla]

Shanba, Zazie, where are you guys? We need your input for today.

[Hoopla]

Are you for real..?

I was scum, well played town - I think if this kept going you would have seen through my claim.

Tell me why I'd ever say that in an ongoing game.

[Hoopla]

I definitely meant to make that post in that game. Come on townie buddy, I thought you were sharper than this.

[Hoopla]

Ok, that's what I wanted to know.
Time to look at Panzer relationships now.

Why not look for scum instead?

[Hoopla]

Uhm, Panzer flipped scum... I'm looking for connections between the living players and Panzer.

My humour is wasted on you Zazie.

[Hoopla]

Hi, I'm afraid I've been a bit lazy recently with regards to mafia - things have started to pile up elsewhere, and I've been a bit bored with the whole thing anyway. But I'm back now.

First off, I really hate SK's vote on Panzer yesterday. His explanation is that he doesn't think Hoopla or charter are scum and it is therefore safe to vote for him doesn't hold a whole lot of water to my mind - the three votes had been on for some time before he put his vote down, and in that time SK was defending panzer.

Furthermore, the claim is just urgh. I've got to be honest, I don't think he should have claimed doc at all if he is town. Too much damage to his reputation by modifying his claim, and it's not likely to get him off the hook anyway. It looks like a desperate attempt to get away with the game.

However, playing the odds is a geraintm lynch. geraintm is scummier than Sk by quite a long way, and furthermore, if SK

is

telling the truth, then his very existence disrupts scum strategising. A doc to deal with would make things hard for scum. If they're both scum, then it doesn't matter which order we lynch them - especially as if they're both scum then we don't have any power roles left so the probable existence of a scum roleblocker is immaterial!

No, that's really stupid. If Shadow isn't scum it means that myself, geraintm you or Zazie are the last scums. I see Zazie as confirmed in my eyes. The way she actively sought out information based on the townie role isn't something scum could risk. And I am town - you even think I'm town. That leaves just you two.

Geraintm may be scum, but Shadow is the high percentage play today. I'm hoping Zazie sees this as she is the one person I think is town. And to be honest, I've had clouds of doubt over your head too Shanba. Initially, it was more a 'why isn't he dead yet?' type feeling, but I really am starting to see it as possible that you're Shadow's partner.

Your recent post to keep him alive and force a mislynch is clever enough to throw a handful of suspicion on Shadow, but then fabricate a lie that geraintm is the best choice. One mislynch costs us the game, and I think geraintm is possibly town now due to your actions.

Vote: Shadow Knight

- my reasons have been stated in posts on the previous page. Geraintm is

not

the right lynch.

[Hoopla]

If geraintm isn't the right lynch then zazie is.

unvote, vote ZazieR

I don't care where you put your vote, put it on me if you want. You're going to be today's lynch whether you like it or not.

Town, stop letting scum peddle around this craplogic, Shadow is unbelievably scummy. Another reason (in case you're still unsure) is him casting his vote in lylo, and then changing it two posts later. Town should not, and would not vote in lylo unless they are sure. Shadow is not sure, he is just trying to manufacture one more mislynch.

[Hoopla]

Wow, I was actually kind of expecting to die last night. I guess this is where the wifom games start to happen. I don't remember Zazie outwardly expressing any suspicion of Shanba yesterday, so if he were scum it would be in his interest to keep her alive.

On the other hand, I have the lingering feeling Shanba could be stringing me along. I definitely need a reread though with the knowledge shadow is scum. I hope it goes without saying, no voting yet in lylo please!

[Hoopla]

ok, i wasn't expecting that.
i dunno now. am going to have to go and give this a big reread before i am anywhere near a vote, but the result is unlikely to happen till monday.

Who were you expecting to be alive today then?

[Hoopla]

This is hilarious, this is the second mini in a row where I've been in charge of winning (or losing) the game for town. I'm 0/1 for those interested!

[Hoopla]

geraintm, are you going to give me anything to work with?

[Hoopla]

I've done my reading and have elected my kill choice. I don't think my mind will change that much regardless of how much questioning I do now, but I'm 70% sure Shanba is scum to wrap up a neat town comeback.

If I can be bothered I'll post some detailed reasons why I came to this decision in the postgame.

Vote: Shanba

[Hoopla]

Cheer up Sens, it's just a game! Well done scumbags, sorry Shanba! I'll have some more thoughts to follow.

[Hoopla]

As far as balance goes, I think it was slightly scum-favoured. I think there was too much reliance on the Joat in this set-up, but it was certainly still playable.

Well done especially to geraintm who played me like a fiddle. After I posted my Shanba vote, I went and had a shower, then had unremitting feelings that I'd screwed up and wanted to change my mind. Oh well.

I think I played really horribly early in the game, and probably deserved to be lynched, but I still had fun.

[Hoopla]

I like getting beaten up.