Mini 773- Welcome to Lynchville! Perfection! (Over)

[RedCoyote]

*howls*

[RedCoyote]

Vote: Light-kun

for confusing the former 7-Up mascot Spot with a California Raisin.

[RedCoyote]

Vote ppp973

for trying to vote early to confuse things and then not voting anyone.

Going to chalk this up to a language barrier, but I thought it was weird how alex said ppp was suspicious for "voting early".

Additionally, I'm not going to touch the ppp thing. I have no problem with his vote, I actually thought it was kind of clever (although I'm sure it's been done countless times).

---

Since PieIsPopcorn is starting the questioning in the opening 2 pages where people are still going to pop in with their random vote, all he accomplishes is sewing confusion and chaos into the opening procedures.

Better to let everyone show up, say their hellos, make their jokes, etc.., and then leap in with pointed questions. I just don't see the benefit in breaking with convention.

I don't care for this post. You'll usually get the player who will say, "Ok RVS is over" or something like that, but there's no, like, set amount of posts or pages that stuff is supposed to go on for.

I can't even give you credit for the confusion idea. PiP isn't stopping anyone from "saying their hellos" or "making their jokes", he saw something that he thought might be discussion worthy, and he brought it up. If someone is confused about a post and or what the author means, they should just ask.

Not sure the motivation here, maybe, as Brian suggested, to subtly pile on the PiP attacks?

Well, it gives me a reason to

unvote

and now

vote: Kublai Khan

.

---

And I find this opportunistic, vote stays.

Could you explain this a little more?

[RedCoyote]

I agree. Confirm vote: Kublai Kahn. XD

Just kidding, just kidding. I do agree with a lot of what PiP has to say, especially with his jab at Light-kun...

Looks like opportunistic wagoning for a weak reason, like a tack on bill. Reads scummy. See post I quote from Kublai.

But, if you mean Brian, how is he wagoning? As PiP noted, he was the first person to vote KK. What did Brian do wrong in his post? If you find KK scummy,

I also think Pie is possible scum, but this is not contrary to Kublai's scumminess.

then why is Brian scum for "wagoning" him on weak reasoning? If Brian's reasoning is weak, what is your reasoning for calling KK scummy? Or PiP?

[RedCoyote]

@ Light-kun: I don't quite get you. From what I understand, you read my first "real" vote as opportunistic, and you voted me because of that. I get that, that's fine. But then you say that PieIsPopcorn and Kublai Khan are both scummy, I'm "low percentage" (meaning less likely to be scum), and from what I read from your post 70, you find Pie's argument against Kublai to be a convincing one.

Is all the above accurate? I'm just trying to get a hold on what you've been posting, but you've been doing it in a confusing manner (IMO, maybe it's just me).

...and he still hasn't unvoted/changed his vote.

Maybe I can give him some tips?

First you say

unvote

, then you say

vote: Light-kun

.

If anyone asks why you're voting for Light-kun, you say it's because he's talking in circles, not responding to the questions he's presented with, and has blantantly contradictory positions.

I feel like I commented on most of the game in #63-64. Is there anything in particular you want me to talk about?

I believe cater is referring to ppp973.

[RedCoyote]

V/LA until 4/14

.

[RedCoyote]

(One more post!)

Just to be clear, in post 76 I was jokingly referring to Light-kun's vote of Brian, not Brian's vote of Kublai Kahn.

[RedCoyote]

Based on post 80, going to go ahead and

unvote

. Now that Light-kun kind of cleared things up, I understand where he's coming from much better.

---

I was a doctor is a mafia round and I was going to get lynched, but the bus driver saved me. However, the bust driver was working with the mafia.

What does this have to do with anything?

---

I'm just trying to warn you against that problem so we can avoid getting confused by a townie fight.

Do you think this is happening now, in this game?

---

Can we move off the novice discussion and move more on the KK versus Pie discussion?

Does this mean you are getting townie vibes off of ppp and/or alex?

vote: Cream147

[RedCoyote]

Would you care to explain your vote for Cream? It seems strange based on your post. Didn't even mention him.

As Brian speculated, I was just giving him a lurker vote. I tend to find that sort of vote works more effectively if it isn't labeled as a pressure vote but just left to see how the lurker reacts.

---

How was it clever?

Traditionally we vote for people we suspect of being the mafia, but ppp took the opportunity to say he just wanted to vote "the mafia", lol.

Very clever but I don't think it'll work this time.

Your reasons on Kublai are less than Brian's.

Depends on how much stock you put into the idea that people can push bandwagons without being on them.

[RedCoyote]

Cream, you need to post.

Favoring Brian over KK right now, KK's aggression leaves a rotten taste in my mouth although I do agree with his last point that Brian mischaracterized him as hostile "towards other players" when he's really only spoken to PiP and Brian.

[RedCoyote]

Anyone want to discuss the idea of a ppp policy lynch (a p-p-p-policy lynch if you will, lol)?

I'm being serious.

---

For example... read cateration in isolation. He just doesn't scumhunt, No vote (not even Random). He mildly defends a couple of people and state that he is a bit suspicious of Light-kun but nothing else.

Good point, and I like how you reinforced your suspicions with the vote.

I skimmed over cater's post originally, but I do notice the hypocrisy now that you've pointed it out. It's arguable that by sarcastically calling ppp's post useful he was making a point against him, but I wouldn't buy that.

---

Sounds a little forced to me :/

Maybe, but I like his post in general.

---

Red Coyote reminds me of Rorchach. I like him though, so it's awesome.

Now I'm tempted to go search for him, lol. Thanks though.

[RedCoyote]

The rest of you three (RedCoyote, LesterGroans, ppp973) are either not paying attention (anti-town) or letting it slide purposely (anti-town, suggesting scum team).

The questions don't seem particularly harsh, nor does Light-kun's ignorance of them seem particularly scummy. I'm not interested in Light-kun's "percentage" system, because I don't see how it effectively works any different than saying so-and-so is more/less scummy than so-and-so. I do a scale with town on one side and mafia on the other, and I'm sure you do something similar as well to track players.

---

Rorschach* (Correction to my misspelling) is a character from Watchmen, so he isn't a player. However, Red, you remind me of him.

Oh! The one with the mask. I want to check the movie out but I'm scared if I don't read the graphic novel first I'll get lost, hehe.

---

ppp, what does post 137 mean?

---

I think he's annoying, yes, but that's no reason to lynch him. In my experience, the annoying players are very often town, who are trying to contribute but don't know how.

Hah, you maybe right. ppp actually seems somewhat harmless compared to others I've run across.

In any case, am I supportive of lynching ppp?

I see the danger of it, but I think it's irresponsible to lynch [ppp], especially if [KK agrees] with me that he is most likely town.

Hm, interesting comment, cater. I'm noticing you have a knack for assuming things about players.

---

...What? Arbitrary number maybe.

Since the discussion is going... why not 50%?

People not voting Kublai Kahn: Do you think he's scummy, yes or no? Why are we letting ppp distract us so much that Kublai's accusations are no longer being pursued?

1) Yes
2) PiP is gone, lol. Seriously though, I only had some initial suspicions based on the way he discussed the RVS. I'm still trying to get everyone in the game talking.

---

I agree that moving off of bickering over experience is a good idea, but narrowing it down to two choices that early? It just seemed like you were trying to get people on either side instead of exploring more options.

Not only that, but he's been quick to run out talking about ppp, and his perecentage system...

Why are we letting ppp distract us so much that Kublai's accusations are no longer being pursued?

we should move back to previous discussion.

I agree with Lester, Light-kun is definitely focused on KK here. So much in fact, he may be putting his foot in his mouth with all these times he's posted.

[RedCoyote]

1) I wasn't interested until he said 33%, which strikes me as a strange number to start with.

2) Yes, I am asking you. I've noticed you may have assumed the answer already.

3) You assumed that KK thought that ppp was town, and I was noting how a pattern maybe forming.

[RedCoyote]

Does this mean you think he is town or that you think he won't be anti-town for the sake of it like, say Zwets...

No, I mean that I've seen worse examples of supposedly "anti-town town" players.

How's this consistent with your lack of interest for the percentage system?

Well, I made certain assumputions about it before. Light-kun is now saying that he picks "arbitrary numbers" for everyone which struck me as a little odd. Moreover, he's been hesistant to talk about it, but he was the one who brought it up, which I think may mean something.

---

If you were interested, then why did you say this

Because his answer struck me as odd, I was expecting him to say 50%, and I was curious why he didn't (and no one had brought that up yet).

I’m sorry if I incorrectly assumed that you were for it. I thought that’s what this post meant. Are you for it? If so, why? Especially in light of the points I’ve brought against it. If not, why would you bother discussing it?

Well, I don't come from the school of thought that says that a townie can't bring up discussion topics without supporting them, but no, I don't think I particularly support a ppp lynch. I wanted to discuss it because I wanted to gauge ppp's reaction to it.

I think it may also have told me more about Light-kun, but we'll see where that goes.

[RedCoyote]

unvote

Mod

, can I ask you to consider prodding/replacing Cream? I'm thinking he may just be a little too busy right now to play.

Welcome to Archon.

[RedCoyote]

ppp, again, please explain post 137.

---

I'll give us one more thing to talk about with my

vote: Light-kun

.

1)

Archaist brought up that he was concerned about you ignoring him.

Or, you could repost your question... if it was in a block of text, I've become lazy lately and don't read them that closely.

I said earlier that I didn't find this particularly scummy, but as I'm rereading I may be flip-flopping on that. The fact of the matter is, you were the one to bring up your "percentage" system. I'm not criticizing it, but I will criticize the fact that you're getting defensive about addressing inquiries over it. Maybe you did miss his questions, maybe not, but you were having a small discussion with him at that moment, which leads me to believe you wouldn't have forgotten about him so easily.

2)

You've been having some trouble keeping track of names and identities.

Hm, it appears I miscued. At post 84, after rereading 81, I should have proceeded to attack Pie, who was very defensive when I doubly attacked Pie and KK. Also, KK shows superior logic and makes sense.

I understand this could happen once, but now I can come up with two serious occasions of this happening, post 169 and post 80. Post 169, above, I

think

you're saying that, since post 81, you've been meaning to attack Pie. Pie is, by your own admission, the polar opposite of KK in an argument, and you've been railing against KK in numerous posts (see my next point). Post 80, below, happened earlier when you went on for several posts with a vote on Brian, calling him scummy, when you actually meant to have been calling KK the scummy one.

Wow, honestly, I thought I did this already.

Unvote; Vote Kublai Kahn

When I said opportunistic [post 62], I thought I had switched votes to Kublai Kahn for some reason. I suppose that, maybe, I read someone else's unvote/vote KK as my own. Oh well, that's solved.

This could potentially mean that you aren't too concerned with who it is you are voting or suspecting, or it could mean an easy excuse to keep you looking good to everyone. Either way, I don't like it.

3)

The constant pushing of KK.

My point is that [pushing KK] is at least significantly better than the policy lynch discussion. [...] I just think we shouldn't waste time with a stupid policy lynch discussion.

Cateraction: Where do you think KK adress Pie's accusations?

You've gotten on KK pretty hard and pretty fast, which can be acceptable if you have an aggressive playstyle, but what concerns me is how you seem very overly occupied with KK despite the fact other things are going on around you.

Why are we letting ppp distract us so much that Kublai's accusations are no longer being pursued?

Everything needs to be dismissed for favor of KK to you.

Can we move off the novice discussion and move more on the KK versus Pie discussion?

Well, maybe you see something really bad in KK, I guess my question then would be what that really bad thing was.

we should move back to previous discussion [of KK].

I agree that I've seen a couple of KK posts that I didn't care for, but I also agree with Brian that he's done a pretty good job addressing his issues. Right now I may be a little concerned with KK's offense, or lack thereof, but that's just because I can't think of anything off the top of my head he's done that's not "I'm innocent, dammit".


I know I remind you of a superhero, but right now you remind me of a supervillain. XD

[RedCoyote]

Point 2: Invalid. You cite where, as Cat points out, KK has defend himself. I'm like: OH, well, that was stupid of me. Unvote. Now, I would be more interested in Pie, who has disappeared, which allowed Archon to come in, so I have yet to decide on my next move.
Point 3: Recounted, see point 2.
Point 1: This is not a scum tell.

That's my point, but I may not have drawn the line clear enough. Forgetting names/identites isn't scummy in and of itself, the motivation behind it is what I'm getting at. I can see a motivation behind saying, over several posts, "Lynch A!", and then, when someone askes why A, you say, "Oh I meant B, always meant B!" That motivation could be to to try and create noise against both players, or it could be because you honestly don't care who is lynched. You have a bad habit of jumping on every popular vote-getter this game has reached so far. What's more, as I mentioned in the 3rd point, you get fiesty about pushing for whoever it is you're voting.

Again, being aggressive is fine and it isn't scummy, but when you are saying you want to ignore all discussion except for discussing why A is scummy, and then you flip to say you mean B... You're flying by the seat of your pants here. What do you call someone who doesn't care who they're lynching?

Your percentage system, that's not what I'm saying is scummy. I'm saying it's scummy for you to bring this system up, out of the blue, and then get defensive when people start asking you about it. Archaist askes you about it multiple times, but you opt to ignore him and push for lynching KK instead.

---

I get the read that he's unfocused or scatterbrained. That kind of behavior doesn't seem like something a mafioso would intentionally do to throw off the town. But then again, I'm not sure what to make of it at all.

I think you could write it off as town, sure, but I think you could write Archaist off as prideful town too. More on this below.

---

ppp

, for the third time, explain post 137. Additionally, you need to use your vote, you haven't changed it since the RVS as far as I'm concerned.

Waiting for the Cream replacement.

---

This doesn't feel right, Archaist, to me, feels as though he's just a townie digging himself into a hole about the whole policy lynch comment. Anyone else feel this might be the case?

I'm not the type who considers putting someone at L-1 scummy. I think, with a wild card like ppp in the game, it maybe best to keep someone at L-2, but I'm not going to fault Lester for that specifically. That said, I don't necessarily agree with him. Moreover, I don't think that Lester gave us a good enough reason for abandoning what I thought to be good suspicions on Light-kun in favor of jumping on this wagon.

Lester, what has Light-kun/Archaist done to make you switch your vote?

The entire case on Archaist, so far as I can tell, is that he refuses to concede the obvious fact that KK was joking around with Archon. I'm not going to say this bandwagon is scum-driven, but I am going to say that the only people who I think are earnestly on the wagon are alex and possibly Brian. alex, to his credit, put together a better case against Archaist, and he's also the first people to jump from it the second he smells something's off. What that tells me is that alex is genuinely concerned about whether or not Archaist is scum (as opposed to just wanting to lynch whoever). I'm so-so about giving Brian credit because his post 209 just seems like a lot of words that amount to saying, "Archaist is scum for jumping on KK disingenuously".

This is more than I can say for the rest of the wagon however.

[RedCoyote]

Go back and re-read my posts, alexhans' posts, and BrianMcQueso's posts.

Did you miss where I conceded that alex's vote seemed sincere and well thoughtout? I also addressed Brian. The problem with the points both you and Brian bring up are pride. I can see a townArchaist mistakenly putting up that your policy vote suggestion was scummy without really paying attention, and now that he's being called out for it, afraid to say that he, in retrospect, sees it was obviously a joke.

That's where all this, "How am I

factually

wrong?" and "You can't assume KK was joking" crap comes from. That doesn't make for much of a scumtell to me.

The majority of suspicion is based on Archaist's pattern of behavior, his false dichotomy, and (as a topper) pushing a false case against me.

2 & 3 are the same thing, because, and correct me if I'm wrong,

If you're serious then you're scummy for wanting to lynch a player before they even really post anything. Of course, you could always hide behind your statement by saying you were just joking. Either way, it's not pro-town.

Unvote
Vote: Kubli Khan

his case against you

is

the false dichotomy you speak of.

By pattern of behavior, I'm going to assume you mean his wagon-hopping, which is a better point.

In any event, I can much easier explain Archaist's moves as those of a townie unwilling to admit he made a mistake than I am willing to write Light-kun's actions off. Light-kun has been swapping names and pushing lynches on people who he thinks are innocent. Light-kun strikes me as a player who is either trying to get on everyone's good side or just genuinely indifferent as to who does get lynched.

Not every townie is going to post a huge post of brand new information and unique analysis every time they change their vote. It's not scummy to agree with what's been presented if you think it's a good case.

I realize that, but then explain to me why Lester jumped on the wagon. He cites because of "baseless attacks" even though he concedes that he felt the same way that Archaist did about your infamous post!

Or these,

Archon came into the game realizing it was a joke. Therefore, you should know it is a joke or meant to be one. Given that the target admits something, it is scummy to continue to defend the target (or attack that aggressor, as the case maybe.)

You found him irrefutably scummy based on what has been explained as a joke (or at least a personal vendetta rather than a real game goal).

So now, having seen that it was just a joke, explain to me how you still think it's scummy?

Nah, not going with it, not good enough for me. Like I said before, it's much easier for me to write that off as a stubborn townie refusing to say uncle. Being too harsh on you for joking is not what I consider a huge scumtell.

But it sounds like you're dismissing a lot of researched and cited evidence out of hand while trying to cast false suspicion on people simply for agreeing with it.

I'm not going to say this bandwagon is scum-driven

, but I am going to say that the only people who I think are earnestly on the wagon are alex and possibly Brian.

(emphasis added).

[RedCoyote]

Post 236 is a good response Lester, I think you summed up the points well. Maybe I can just understand your rhetoric better than I can everyone else, because I know alex/KK brought these things up, but they seem more powerful when you write about them.

I think 237 is a stretch, however.

---

So, you admit to voting me when nothing I've done is scummy?

You misread my post.

Unvote; Vote RedCoyote

I'm more scummy to you than Archaist now? Explain, please.

---

Lester's post 236 gets a hearty endorsement from me. Good logic and well phrased.

I agree.

I can't in good conscience say Archaist would be a bad lynch. I guess a big point I'm trying to get across to y'all is that Archaist is less of a threat to me because I sense frustration and attempts to scumhunt are clouding his senses. I can point this directly to the whole "policy lynch joke", but I'll admit it's harder for me to defend his wagon-hopping.

---

For Archaist to continue to push a "How do you know he's joking?" reeks of desperation.

I get what you're saying, Archaist is making lame points on scumtells that don't exist and, further, not backing down from them. I'm just not convinced on this point. I just told Brian the reason this doesn't convince me.

We can only lynch one person a day. I concur that Light_kun is suspicious, but he's not at the top of my list right now.

Fair enough. Perhaps I came on to strong initially, I'm not trying to say that Archaist is my favorite townie either, I'm just trying to explain to everyone that whereas I can come up with a reasonable excuse for Archaist's actions, I have a much more difficult time explaining how Light-kun can say, "Lynch Brian! Very scummy! ...oh wait I meant Brian was very townie. Lynch KK! Extremely scummy! ...oh wait I meant KK was extremely townie. Lynch Archaist! Very scummy! ...oh wait I mean ignore Archaist. Lynch RC! Very scummy!".

If a townie is so stubborn that he can't give up a case in the face of contravening evidence, then he's still anti-town.

Hmm, so then I may be able to convince you yet? This is exactly what I think. Archaist is being stubborn, and, consequently, anti-town, but scummy... still not sure.

The problem I have with your quote is that just after the emphasis, there is the word "but". That word usually means that the second half of the sentence will completely contradict the first half and be more telling.

Well, rest assured that my comment was not meant to be taken that way. Now I

know

Light-kun wasn't earnestly on the wagon and we still haven't heard from cater yet.

Lester, to his credit, clarified his stance to my satisfaction.

---

Welcome qwints!

1) We're approaching deadline and I want to get my thoughts out there as fast as possible.
2) After replacing in for an inactive player, I want to establish a baseline of thinking for people rather than have a relatively small sample size determine how people judge me.

I understand you want to get your thoughts in, but it looks almost as if you read KK in isolation. It actually looks like you literally quoted every one of his posts, I can't see anyone else's posts in your summary. I don't know if I care for this type of replacing, as it seems rather like tunnelling on KK, but I will give you that it's better than not reading anything at all.

1) Saying he didn't attack Brian when he did and 2) saying he wasn't pushing a policy lynch when he was (I refer to ppp, not archon.)

I'll tell you right now that I don't agree with the first point. I remember that post specifically and I remember thinking that Brian was padding his vote at that point. Although in general I've been very receptive of Brian's commentary, I remembered that specifically because I didn't agree with it.

You're second point could have some merit, but even if I agreed with it, it wouldn't be enough for me to change my vote.

I'd like to see what Archaist says about your posts though.

---

Mod

, please consider looking for a replacement for ppp. If you don't think you'll get anyone by deadline, that's okay with me, but I just don't think he's going to be a hearty player in the game (regardless as to whether he's scum/town/third party).

[RedCoyote]

After my initial read, I was fairly sure he was scum so I analyzed him more closely. There's not enough time for me to do the same for everyone. I plan to do it for Archaist tomorrow.

You're more than welcome to analyze as many posts as you like, I was just hoping that you'd give us a general feel for the lineup of the game. Who are your townie/scum bets at the moment? Any posts you thought were specifically really bad or really insightful? I mean, personally I'd rather hear your opinion on every player than I would an extensive read on just one you find the most scummy.

To show I'm not asking you to do something I wouldn't do, I'll put up my own pulse for the game so far:

[

Town

]---Brian-alex---Lester---Archon----Chief-qwints[

∙

]-KK-ppp-------Archaist-cater---Lightkun--[

Scum

]

---

If and when you'll keep up your PBPA, I'll have a full record of how I've not said a single townie thing all game, yet still was town. Neat.

To be fair to qwints, not quite everything he had to say about you is bad. Although he originally labels your response to Archaist as OMGUS, he thinks you've created a "viable case" with "solid" evidence.

Yet you've chosen to tunnel-vision on one player rather than give a broad analysis of everyone, thus depriving everyone of being able to know your positions after my mislynch. Bra-vo!

I agree with this point but not the exaggeration behind it. I'd really prefer qwints soak in what he can and give us an overview of what he thinks rather than attempt to comment on every post a single player makes (or, God forbid, every post so far in the game).

Doesn't have very much merit at all.

I think your position on policy lynches in general has been flimsy enough to bite on this one. Like I said, this is not even close to convincing me of anything, but it could be a foundation point for a case built on a lack of principled positions in order to get a lynch through.

---

I apologize deeply for my absence, and am back to announce an official V/LA due to my mother's new job which will heavily limit my internet access. But I will try to get on at school as often as I can.

Although reading through some of your analysis is helpful (as I'm sure it's helpful for you to look over posts again with new information that we have), I'd much prefer it if you could focus on the last few posts, or looking through the thread and going over posts where people have voted, and deciding where you think your vote should head. Unless you think you'll finish before the deadline, it's really time to start getting everything in order.

---

So that was enough for your L-1 vote?

This made me do a double-take at first too. I think this comment kind of contradicts the rest of his post, but I don't think there was any deceit behind it. I don't want to speak for Lester, but I think he probably would've changed the phrasing for that sentence by the time he got to the end of writing his post.

??? Serious man!

No joke. I really don't see how he can talk his way out of that vote, which I'm prepared to argue is a clear-cut example of OMGUS unless he can give me an explanation. I'm really glad you picked up on it too.

check the first post by the mod... The asterisks are there... I don't know why.

Now I'm curious.

Mod

, could you explain what the asterisks are there for?

---

It seems to me qwintz, that you picked up early on KK's tone, read it as scummy, and went through the game looking for times when that tone came up.

This worries me as well. This is why I'd like him to talk about more than one person.

[RedCoyote]

It's unfortunate that Archaist had to claim, and obviously we're going to be taking it with a grain of salt, but I think the claim alone should be enough to draw our attention elsewhere. Incidentally, I've seen no reason to change my vote.

In addition to my three points in post 195, Light-kun hasn't explained his erratic voting behavior adequately. I'd specifically point out his jump from Archaist to me and back again. I don't think he had a reason he could stand behind, he had made reference to the theory that I voted him without considering him scummy, but that's not backed up by anything I've said. When I asked Light-kun how, why, or when I had appeared more scummy than Archaist, he dodged the question and revoted Archaist.

So if my fourth point (

4

) against Light-kun is based on his voting of me without reason, then my fifth point (

5

) would be his position on Pie/Archon.

Hm, it appears I miscued. At post 84, after rereading 81,

I should have proceeded to attack Pie

, who was very defensive when I doubly attacked Pie and KK. Also, KK shows superior logic and makes sense.

Now,

I would be more interested in Pie

, who has disappeared, which allowed Archon to come in, so I have yet to decide on my next move.

(empahsis added to both)

If Pie was worse than KK, if he thought he should have proceeded to attack Pie, if he was more interested in Pie... then why hasn't he been drilling Archon at all? I've held off on bringing this up, waiting for him to ask Archon anything or press him on anything. I can only find one instance of Light-kun even speaking to him, and it's not even a question.

If Pie was the person Light-kun was "more interested" in and more convinced was scummy than KK,

Scum: KK, Archaist (not together)

???: Everyone else.

why is he not listed under scum in this post instead of, or in addition to, KK? Why did Light-kun end up voting KK? No more "Pie was replaced" excuses anymore, Archon's had the role for over a week now.

---

I am reporting a V/LA for Friday-Sunday.

Alright, I gotta run and see my school's production of Godspell (wootwoot). I'll (hopefully!) check in later and keep going.

Ok, I understand real life, traveling, etc, etc. I don't mind that he's going on V/LA, but I mind that he didn't make more of an effort to throw down a vote. If he makes another post before the deadline with some solid suspicions then I'll withdraw this, but I want to make him aware that saying so-and-so is scummy is one thing but voting is another. Chief only voted once this game, during the RVS. That concerns me, and I think it should concern everyone.

The same thing goes for ppp, but less so. The reason ppp gets more of a pass is because of his style and also the length of his absence leads me more toward the idea that he just took off rather than he's holding out until D2 to come back.

[RedCoyote]

check the first post by the mod... The asterisks are there... I don't know why.

Now I'm curious.

Mod

, could you explain what the asterisks are there for?

Mod?

Additionally, if it's not too much trouble, could you make a note of any changes you make to vote counts or any prods you make either as an edit to the post with the request or, as you were doing, a completely new post? I just ask because when I was rereading Archaist asked you about his unvote and I wasn't sure if you ever addressed that or not just by skimming through.

---

I'm buying Archaist's claim. I just wanted to make sure we have all the details so we're clear, and things don't go changing later.

I like this hohum guy. But I don't think you've got the right idea about qwintz. Yes, he laid out a long elaborate case against KK, and then switched to Archaist, but (forgive me for putting words into your mouth, qwintz) I think he suspects both of them.

I'm liking Light-kun less. "Spastic" does seem to be a good word to describe his voting behavior. The latest vote on qwints, which seems to be little more than an OMGUS vote, is concerning at this point in the game.

Good post, I find myself agreeing with everything in this quote here.

---

Archon, cater, alex, Chief, KK, Archaist, and Brian should get serious about their votes.

Archon, are you comfortable with your vote in light of all the changes since you voted? Same question for cater.

Hohum: Did you totally miss the fact that Archaist claimed? That's why everyone has been unvoting him. Do you suspect him to be lying?

Do you? You're the only one who hasn't unvoted him yet. It looks like you've now made two posts since Archaist claimed, and even scolded someone about his claim, so why are you still voting him?

---

In games like these guys like LK have a tendency to be lightning rods.

Welcome hohum!

I think this quote about sums up your position on Light-kun, right?

I'll give you a three letter rebuttal to this theory: ppp.

A player like ppp is someone I could buy a "lightning rod" type defense of, that their playstyle is so unorthodox that it is like a lightning rod of suspicion.

I'm less concerned with the fact that Light-kun is vote hopping and more concerned about the people he's selecting and the reasons (or lack of reasons) he's giving us.

Incidentally, qwints made it pretty clear that he was warm to the case against Archaist when he joined the game. I'm willing to show quotes to back this up, but I'm wondering if you dispute this at all.

[RedCoyote]

unvote

I don't feel comfortable voting for LK, because I can't convince myself that his play has been scummy. It's so frantic and confusing that I don't know what to think of him.

Did you just dodge our (Me + KK at least, maybe someone else asked) question? Why didn't you unvote Archaist earlier, after he claimed? I'm not asking you why you didn't unvote him as a way of getting your vote somewhere else if that's what you think. I actually want the answer to the question.

---

And just because I was not voting for anyone, you shouldn't say that I need to be serious about my vote. I have believed in every vote I have made (except the first random one, of course).

I'm assuming this is directed at me. I didn't mean to imply that you weren't taking your vote seriously, but rather that I have a vested interest in, one, getting a lynch to go through, and two, getting everyone to place down a vote today in order to see who they are siding with/against.

---

Do you really think there wasn't a doubt in his mind? Do you think just because he voted LK it means that he abandons KK's case altogether?

Did I say that? I think you may have mixed my name up with someone else.

I don't have to follow your timing. I choose when I think it's wise to put my vote and especially since I'm intending to vote the player with more votes. I don't want to let others I find scummy off the leash just because I vote for another person.

You too, alex?

Look, I'm not suggesting anyone has been unserious with their votes (except Light-kun, but that's a different case). That wasn't the underlying intent of that comment. KK picked up the meaning I was driving at. I could've just as easily wrote "Archon, cater, alex, Chief, KK, Archaist, and Brian shouldn't forget the deadline", or "I want Archon, cater, alex, Chief, KK, Archaist, and Brian to make it clear where they stand before this day ends so the town can use that information later in the game".

---

I will not go along with an LK lynch. Not today.

This is a bit too far for Day 1.

an LK lynch is better than a no lynch

Make up your mind.

---

@everyone: Deadline May 6th at 2:30 P.M. (don't know exactly wich GMT...)

I believe Mod uses EST, meaning that 2:30 PM for him would be 6:30 PM (18:30) would be the deadline under GMT.

---

Red Canyon

XD

---

Why...why was [Pie] replaced by Archon?

See, I got the opposite impression. It seemed to me like you Pie was your most scummy through the first half of the game.

Once Archon replaced I figured you liked Archon much more, but I couldn't ever find you talking about him again.

Pie wishes for me to answer questions from Red and himself.

Red votes LK. LK doesn't know what Pie is talking about and answeres Red.


KK makes a counter attack on Pie.

I tried very hard to follow you Light-kun, honestly I did.

I can't make sense of this. Pie was gone by the time I had voted you. KK certainly wasn't still attacking Pie at that time.

I thought that maybe you meant Archon here, but Archon, so far as I can tell, never asked you to answer any questions about me. I'm completely lost at this point.

ppp votes nolynch. ? (Blunder)

Ok, you've got to be going back and forth. Surely this summary isn't in any sort of chronological order.

I assume your claim will be coming tomorrow as well? I'll be disappointed if it's anything but a 'nilla townie.

---

I'd still really like to hear from Archon and Chief before the day ends.

[RedCoyote]

It's irresponsible for a power role to claim so late, forcing the town into a pressure lynch situation like this. KK is, in my opinion, right to be very suspicious of the claim.

I don't like the prospect of keeping Light-kun alive after giving us a claim ~7 hours out, but I've also been thinking long and hard about the sheer effort Light-kun has put into the last few posts he's made... thinking about how likely scumLight-kun would have bothered to do that.

Unlike alex, I cannot fault KK (or anyone) for wanting to lynch Light-kun despite his claim given the deadline, certainly any scum on this wagon will be more than happy to lurk until tomorrow, but I do hope no one labels me opportunistic for using this chance to get someone else lynched.

I absolutely support a cater lynch, and will go ahead and

unvote

now so that I can

vote: cateraction

. Seeing as how I both believe that alex is town and believe cater is scum, I'm willing to make this radical vote change. I am conscious of this decision and willingly accept being held accountable for the

consequences

of a cater lynch, but, again, I hope no one faults my

decision

to switch my vote at this point in time.

---

Edit: I just saw the abrupt, awkward switch to KK. This switch seems artificial, and I don't like Archaist or alex's support of it. This town should be weary of anyone trying to take advantage of,

This is my last post today.

I will try to come back and check on the thread soon, but I think KK's position is valid (even if I don't agree with him) and I

do not

see it as scummy.

---

Edit (again):

so, it comes doan to Light and KK. Who will die? find out in tommorow's epic adventure!

A pretty brazen comment from someone who hasn't made a meaningful post in a week and a half.

In other words, I'd probably be okay with an Archon lynch too.

[RedCoyote]

Look red... I presented my options:
1) Cater (scummiest person next to LK)
2) KK (Not very fun to lynch him but it might give us good info, plus, totally ignoring the claim sucked. Saying he was leaving for good sucked, his aggressivenes has had some inconsistencies)
3) qwints. (due to the current votecount mostly, I dont like a qwints lynch)

I will go with one, and while I do think a KK lynch is better than a Light-kun lynch at this point, that's a position I'm taking out of circumstance.

qwints would be acceptable, probably more acceptable than KK for me at this point.

---

I was trying to prevent my need to claim so the tracker, if he so is, could be protected for a longer period of time.

I understand your excuse, Light-kun. As of right now I don't accept it. I've done my best with the time I had to skim over your posts trying to find some form of subtle hinting at a doctor role, but I've seen none.

If I was pressed, yeah, I'd probably be more inclined to believe your claim, which should be apparent when I unvoted you. I appreciate the explanation, but I just don't accept it.

While I don't inherently disagree with the Cater case, I am not endorsing it with a vote because I think the case on KK is better.

You're hardly one to talk about choosing which way this town should go. Ignoring whether holding off the claim was right, even if I were to concede to you that it was the right move (which I don't), you should still take responsibility for the situation the town is in now.

Also, Red seems pretty confident in it... I don't see the why, but I did concentrate highly on KK and possibly missed it?

If you read me in isolation, specifically the last 4 or 5 posts I made, I mentioned one specific thing about cater. cater was hassling someone for not cutting Archaist slack for his claim while he was still voting Archaist. When I confronted cater about his vote on Archaist he changed his vote and never explained why it was he kept his vote on Archaist for several days after Archaist claimed.

This

may

have been a simple oversight, but he never told me what the reason was, he just ignored my question and changed his vote, which came back scummy to me (and I think alex, too).

That was the most recent problem I had with cater, but there were a couple more if you want to go a little further back. His inactivity has concerned me and others. Lester or Chief called him out for complaining about other people posting fluff when he hadn't posted anything worthwhile himself.

---

I get the general feeling that this is a broken setup and that the entire town has got power roles, in which case I think we should just massclaim. This is going to get WIOFMy quickly.

Uh,

what

?

A) Borderline outguessing the mod
B) IMO, you let it slip that you are a power role (seriously, a doc and a tracker claim = entire town has power roles?)
C) Why are you even concerned about the setup when qwints has the lowest amount of votes with only a couple hours until the deadline?

---

I'm extremely frustrated; I do not think a KK lynch is a good idea. As WIFOM as it sounds, and as defensive as I may seem for KK, I have to say that I do not think that KK would, as scum, tell the town that he won't be posting any more before the deadline. That's too bold of a gambit for D1.

If anything I think he's a townie just baiting the town to jump on him if only to leave egg on the faces of qwints and Light-kun for riding him so hard. I don't like the circumstances anymore than anyone else, but I really do not think KK is scum.

If my hand is forced, I will vote KK.

[RedCoyote]

hohum, you're absolutely against a cater lynch then I take it?

[RedCoyote]

I don't think we have the support to push qwints, my heart isn't really in a qwints lynch either anyways. The people I would be comfortable lynching would be cater, Archon, or Chief. Everyone else would be forced.

Whatever the case may be, I think y'all have the support for a KK lynch despite my objections.

[RedCoyote]

Okay, I've made my decision. I won't be changing my vote.

I think the town has the support to lynch KK if that's their choice, but I don't need to be a part of it if a majority will push the lynch through. If I had a fundamental reason for my sudden defense of KK it would be that fact that he decided to leave today. That would be a serious scum gambit for D1, knowing he would be ruffling a lot of feathers by leaving his vote on a Doctor claim.

If y'all decide to go with cater, great, but if not, then I'll hopefully see y'all in D2.

confirm vote: cateraction

One last point against cater: his unvote without stating who he plans on voting before the deadline, if he plans of voting before the deadline, or revoting anyone whatsoever.

[RedCoyote]

cater flipping scum after the craziness of that final day is the best thing that could've happened for us. I think it seriously changes this game.

Here is an order of events that happened in the last ~8 hours of D1. This is mostly just the votes in chronological order.

Vote Map: End of D1

1. Light-kun claims Doctor
2. KK stays on Light-kun and leaves
3. alex changes his vote to cater (1/5)

3a. Archaist changes his vote to KK (3/5)

4. alex unvotes cater (0/5) and votes KK (4/5)
5. Archon doesn't change his KK vote
6. RC votes cater (1/5)
7. alex unvotes KK (3/5) and votes cater (2/5)

7a. Archaist unvotes KK (2/5) and votes cater (3/5)

8. qwints changes his vote to KK (3/5)
9. hohum unvotes qwints (1/5) and votes KK (4/5)

9a. cater unvotes

10. RC confirms cater vote
11. Lester changes his vote to cater (4/5)

11a. cater votes KK (5/5)

12. hohum unvotes KK (4/5) and votes cater (5/5)
13. Brian changes his vote to KK (5/5)

Just based on votes here without any context, it would be pretty damn hard to call anyone on the cater vote scum. This was basically a scum hammer on KK situation if anyone on the cater wagon was scum. Archaist can be taken off because he's dead, so that leaves four. Out of those four, I think great cases can be made especially for me and hohum. In my case, I was critical of cater since fairly early in the game, but I officially documented that he was my second most scummy (behind Light-kun at the time) in post 265. In hohum's case, his vote effectively served as the hammer given the way the tie breaking system works. Additionally, hohum was posting after Brian had voted, so he had ample opportunity to switch to KK at any time.

Lester, I would say, could not be given as many town points as me or hohum because he came to change his vote and didn't really engage in the discussion at all. Lastly, alex's vote would probably be the least town creditable. He left before the rest of the cater wagon (sans Archaist), and, although he got on cater early, he switched to KK and back again.

This should be read in the relative sense that it is written, I am surely not saying alex or Lester are scummy for their vote. I'm saying it would truly be hard to argue alex or Lester as scum, but it would be near impossible to argue for me or hohum as scum.

Additionally, notice above how undecided the votes on cater were. hohum, alex, and Archaist all went back and forth, deliberating their vote with most every post.

No one on the cater wagon ever voted or seriously considered voting cater

, and that's not a coincidence.

Throw out cater as the person who was lynched, you have six players left.

There is the small, improbable possibility that

both

KK and cater are scum. I want to get this option out of the way because, one, that would be a statistical improbability, two, that would mean that the scum wouldn't have really pushed any other target for lynch yesterday (you could argue qwints to a degree but, come on, zero votes left on qwints?), and three, that they preferred to lynch their Godfather over whatever role KK was? So, no, I'm throwing this out altogether. I'm not only throwing this out but I'm ready to call KK town because of how unlikely this scenario would be.

Light-kun has claimed Doctor; he remains the Doctor, without a cc, in a game with at least one Tracker and one Godfather (and, therefore, likely a Cop). Given that the Tracker died today, I'm going to say here and now that I would be suspicious of any Doctor cc at this point. I think Light-kun was likely roleblocked last night, leaving Archaist unprotected. I like Light-kun's odds of being town at this point.

Now we have four players left. It's of my opinion that the cater's partner or partners is among these four: Brian, Archon, qwints, and ABR. I believe these are the people the power roles should be investigating, and I believe this is the pool we should be lynching from.

Archon

:

so, it comes doan to Light and KK. Who will die? find out in tommorow's epic adventure!

This is his post at the deadline after being effectively gone for a week and a half. No concern over Light-kun's claim, no concern with hunting, no concern with his vote, no concern with cater... story of Archon's game so far. No concern about the outcome of the lynch. Wasn't Archon's vote on KK a joke to being with? Some sort of inside joke they had about a game they were playing in?

The real joke is letting Archon continue to live with this kind of activity.

Archon replaced Pie, who I'm only bringing up because of how close Brian was to him. They both pushed KK early on an exaggerated case. Granted, I tended to agree with them, but as the Day wore on KK slowly, steadily increased up my town scale while Pie/Archon sank. In any event, this push of Archon would encompass all of Pie/Archon's activity, and a substantial amount of Brian's activity as well.

Brian

:

I get the impression that [KK's] nervous to even have any pressure on him whatsoever. I have noticed that Kublai Khan has also been somewhat hostile towards other players who have vocalized any sort of suspicion towards him

This was an exaggeration, which Brian ended up recanting. The case that he and Pie pushed early on revolved mostly around KK's attitude and his sketchy position on the RVS. While I found a little merit in the latter reason (post 119), I was still liking Brian over KK. As I said, KK's stance would slowly improve over time, but not since an early vote was I really all that warm to the case against KK.

Here's the answer to your question: you seeing KK's post as scummy is a matter of

opinion

, not fact. There is a difference. The fact that you so vehemently defend your overreaction is bad form.

vote: Archaist

Knowing Archaist's role, we have to take a closer look at those who supported lynching him. Brian's vote wouldn't be bad at all (both KK and alex voted and pushed Archaist as well), except for the fact that he follows KK's case with the vote. Brian would, as we know, later get back on the KK wagon after Archaist and Light-kun claimed. This is significant, I think, because if Brian thought KK was scum (which he did at the beginning and end of the day), he jumped on this wagon fairly quickly.

But I don't think you've got the right idea about qwintz. Yes, he laid out a long elaborate case against KK, and then switched to Archaist, but (forgive me for putting words into your mouth, qwintz) I think he suspects both of them.

Hmm, kind of like how you suspected Archaist and KK?

In qwints' defense, you'll notice a similar trend with my play so far in this game. [KK] started off looking really scummy to me, and over time, I've agreed with [KK] more and more.

Yeah, until the deadline comes along. Words without anything to back them up. You tend not to push to lynch those who you "agree with more and more" over those who have had no impression on the game and who you've never said you found particularly townie (refering to cater).

MOD

: Can we have an extension? Please? I know you've given us a boatload of extra time already, but I'm just asking for another... 24 hours. So much has developed recently.

I could easily see this as a thinly veiled request to extend the time in order to get people off of his partner.

I'm really not buying the case against cateraction. Everyone has the instinct for self-preservation, regardless of alignment. And unvoting the doctor without re-voting is not scummy play.

As far as I know, this is the only time Brian's so much as mentioned cater. I'd have to go back and check on this though.

I'm curious if Brian still feels that cater's unvote without revoting with some 2 hours to the deadline isn't scummy. In retrospect it's obvious cater was just wanting to get on the KK wagon without making it too apparent, but I wanted to hear Brian's defense of cater, if he can, putting that part aside. I called cater's action out as scummy there because that's what it looked like to me, that he was preparing to switch his vote to KK out of self-preservation ("I don't want to vote KK but I want to save my ass!"). Why wasn't that scummy at the time, Brian?

While Kublai Khan has gotten a lot more pro-town as the game has progressed, his early play is deciding my vote. I'd rather see him lynched than cateraction, at this point.

Why? What comes across as so townie about cater's play to you at this post? Like I said, I don't think you've ever addressed him.

This is news to me, Brian is on record a couple of times backing away from the KK lynch because he sees him as more townie, but then he up and joins his wagon again at the deadline in order to protect the non-factor cater? Huh?

Are you really a power role? Or were you just being sarcastic. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if we have a stacked down with either a large scum group or a scum group with power.

This is coaching, without a doubt. Brian here is begging cater to claim a PR. I think Brian senses how flimsy the cater wagon is (e.g. hohum and alex together).

qwints

:

Cream had virtually nothing to look at, but as soon as qwints joins the game, rather than give an opinion on the players in the game and on the current Archaist wagon, he, quite oddly, comments on every single KK post in the game. This amounts to a few large walls that would become the basis of qwints' KK vote upon replacing and at the end of the day.

1) Saying he didn't attack Brian when he did and 2) saying he wasn't pushing a policy lynch when he was (I refer to ppp, not archon.)

His case boils down to this, the first point being invalid and the second point being a reach at best. He concedes the first point is bad (post 256) but says his attitude is still too defensive.

I just don't see what all the fuss is about at this point. I don't know if it's a coincidence that qwints, Archon, and Brian were all major KK attackers throughout the day.

Scummy: Archaist. Kublai Kahn, lightkun and cateraction
Towny: alexhans, ChiefSky, BMQ, RedCoyote
Don't know: Lester, ppp973, archon

cater was in qwints' scummy section here, but apparently not scummy enough to consider jumping over KK.

Qwints on the other hand, fits a scum role very well from what I've seen of him.

[...]

I think you're opportunistic scum pushing an easy wagon.

Vote: qwints

cater votes qwints, which was his first (and only) vote for anyone who didn't end up on his wagon. This could be distancing.

KK started out as my number one suspect and the complete dismissal of a PR on a flawed premise bothers me. Cateraction has been lurky and passive. No lynch is not really an option.

vote: Kublai Kahn

I will switch my vote if that's what it takes to avoid a tie

What I want to point about this is that qwints always had cater on his scummy side during D1, but what is particularly odd here is how qwints says he'll switch "to avoid a tie", but he never ends up doing this. Granted, he probably wasn't aware of the lynch going through despite a tie (as I wasn't either), but it still makes me a little uneasy.

ABR

:

Due to Chief's leaving the game at the deadline, there is no real deadline information from her. Chief's play, to me, was leaning scummy, but it was mostly based on her lurking.

ABR is replacing into the slot I see as least likely to be scum of these four. Chief never seriously voted during D1, which is the biggest point against ABR right now.

---

I don't know where you get a "75% chance of 5" figure from. Seems quite contrived. I think you're role fishing.

I agree. Even if qwints has a forumla for it (I have no way of verifying it if it's true; I'm a liberal arts major), seems like a weird statement.

That being said, I want to

vote: BrianMcQueso

with my first vote today. When I hear from him, I'll consider changing it.

I am definitely not opposed to qwints getting some pressure though, and I have no problem putting my vote on him either.

[

Town

]--Lightkun-hohum-alex--KK-Lester--------[

∙

]--ABR------Archon----qwints--Brian-[

Scum

]

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: Under Archon, the final sentence should be, "In any event, this push of

KK

would encompass all of Pie/Archon's activity, and a substantial amount of Brian's activity as well. "

[RedCoyote]

Dammit, wow, the one sentence I bold and I have to make a typo. I was typing so many names and going back and forth trying to get all the information in that I ended up confusing myself. I'm surprised alex didn't notice this, since the rest of the context of the sentence doesn't make sense.

EBWOP:

No one on the

KK

wagon ever voted or seriously considered voting cater

This is obviously what I meant to say.

---

@RedCoyote: Nice wall of text.

You should get used to it. This is how I usually post once the game starts giving me something to work with.

A) Nobody hammered. The time-limit expired and it was a tie vote between cateraction and KK.

I can definitely tell you are tired, lol.

You were the effective hammer because you could've switched to KK (you posted after Brian) but you decided not to. No one else on the cater wagon posted after Brian did.

By the way hohum, this is a good thing. To me, this makes you look very townie, because why would you lynch your Godfather if you had the opportunity to lynch someone else?

B) You say that conclusions can't be drawn from the KK wagon but you proceed to build cases against people based on the fact that they were present on the cateraction lynch.

You'll have to quote me saying that.

It's a common scum tactic when a mis-lynch occurs to cycle through a wagon and lay blame on thick. You seem to be imploring a similar tactic with cateraction's accidental lynch.

1) Are you calling me scummy?
2) Why would you call cater's lynch accidental? I know, at the very least, alex and me both had stated reasons for voting cater. He was my documented second most scummy since page 11... I didn't just draw cater's name out of a hat, hohum. Why would you suggest I voted him by accident?

I don't like where you're going with this right now but I'm not coherent enough to explain why.

I have no idea why, other than you're probably tired like you say. I'm calling you very townie and calling qwints very scummy. Why wouldn't you like where that's going?

If LK were lying about his doc claim and the other doc were present would you want him or her to counter-claim?

Yes, I would.

Then I could ask them why they didn't do their job and defend the Tracker.

Why are you looking scum INSIDE the cater waggon?

Why would you think this when I said, "it would be pretty damn hard to call anyone on the cater vote scum"?

Did you happen to notice the second half of my post? Or my vote...?

Unless KK was scum too. Unless Chief was scum too.

I address the possibility that both KK and cater could be scum... I really don't think you've read my entire post yet.

And Chief never picked up her prod alex, that's why she was replaced.

HOnestly, I thought I was gonna be congratulated or something for this great scum hunt. I'm totally annoyed.

...is this supposed to be sarcasm? Did you read the

very next sentence I wrote

?

This should be read in the

relative sense

that it is written, I am

surely not

saying alex or Lester are scummy

for their vote. I'm saying it would

truly be hard to argue alex or Lester as scum

, but it would be near impossible to argue for me or hohum as scum.

You can take as much credit for the lynch as you want, I'm just saying you going back and forth makes your position seem

relatively

less honest. I'm not saying you are scum in anyway, I specifically said you weren't. I've been saying for some time now that I think you are town, alex. When did you get the impression that I've started thinking you were scum?

alex, I have to assume you, like hohum, just got up a little early and didn't quite read as close as usual.

Why small? Why improbable? What are the statistics? 2) KK tried to lynch LK even though he claimed doc. Cater tried to appeal to emotion and play it cool, softclaiming a PR 3) The godfather reasoning seems good. But What if KK has a role that is useful for scum... say, Roleblocker? I would choose that before Godfather.
I'm not ready to call KK town. At all.

How improbable is it that ten people were voting for scum at the end of D1? Well, assuming there are the traditional 3 scum, each person has a 3/11 chance of voting scum, right? You take out the 3 scum, KK, and Chief, that leaves 7 of us, and that's assuming that neither KK or Chief are scum (which would make the outcome even more unlikely).

Just statistically, if 7 of us are voting scum, I calculate 3/77 or a ~4% chance of that happening.

Moreover, no other target was pushed

at the end of the day

yesterday. If both KK and cater are scum, I'm pretty sure the scum wouldn't be content without trying to get someone else as an alternative lynch.

Three, yeah, that's a personal preference I guess. A Godfather is pretty powerful, but they probably have a Roleblocker and that would be an important role to have if you know the town has a Doctor/Tracker.

In any case, it's good enough to put KK in very good standing for me.

So you're making a possible doc hide? Because you're suspicious of him. Remember, doc is one of the roles that is hard to cc because you get killed for it. Anyway, I believe LK.

If there is a Doctor cc, they are welcome to come out, but they'll have to work hard to convince me why the Tracker died last night.

But I would add there Hohum and KK (the latter not so much, but I'm gonna keep an eye on him). There's some interactions between Cater and ppp that I didn't like. It could be buddying but still...

hohum is hohum, he is a unique character. It would be a pretty ballsy move to effectively hammer your Godfather though.

I don't know, I'm willing to concede that he could be an SK or part of another scum party, but those are both exceptions to the standard for me, and having those discussions without multiple kills at night can be counter-productive.

Stop calling my case on Cater flimsy dude.

I wasn't clear enough about that. I wasn't saying your case was flimsy, I was saying the wagon was flimsy compared to the KK wagon. I pointed specifically to the relationship you had to hohum.

[RedCoyote]

You name us who were on the cater waggon and after, you apparently Imply that everyone but you wasn't serious about voting cater. That's what I understood.

That's not what I meant. The word deliberating generally has a positive connotation associated with it. Contrast this deliberation with those who were on the KK wagon, who never really considered any sort of alternative in cater or anyone else (Light-kun being the exception).

alex, you are making way too much of this, did you see the scale I made at the end of my post? I'm trying to say everyone who was on the cater wagon is townie-looking. We were all deliberating our vote because we were concerned about who was lynched, compare this to the KK wagon where everyone just kind of threw their votes on KK with the excuse of "past actions". In other words, without KK there to defend himself, he was an easy target.

It's good for a player to consider and deliberate who they vote, I don't mean to say that is a bad thing or "isn't being serious".

In the phrase you mixed up, you say that we didn't have serious reasons to vote Cater. Then, you call my case flimsy?

Well I hope you understand now that I never meant we "didn't have serious reasons" to vote cater, seeing as how I was a pretty strong advocate for lynching cater yesterday...

And there is a big difference between calling someone's case flimsy and calling the strength of a wagon flimsy. I never said anything about your case in any posts today.

What I mean is... You said that you more or less ruled some people out because no one moved to save Cater. Right?

That's correct, mostly hohum benefits from this.

Well, KK couldn't move to save Cater if he wanted to stay alive.

Assuming KK was lying about leaving and assuming the scum were already planning to bus KK from the start.

In a situation where KK were scum, why would the scum concentrate all their efforts on bussing KK from the beginning of D1? And then come back to him at the end of the day? Why wouldn't they just pick on someone like Chief or Archon?

To call KK scum is to underestimate the abilities of the mafia, imo. It would definitely be a first for me to see two scum members being wagoned on D1 and the mafia not doing anything about it.

Scum RB wouldn't sacrifice himself for a Godfather. Not now.

I wouldn't say that with absolution. A Roleblocker is nice and all, but a Godfather is a very strong power role too... If a Godfather has even one other teammate then he's untouchable.

Chief was absent so she couldn't have helped Cater even if they were on the same team.

Where did I say I wrote off Chief as a possible scum?

I don't know why is that supposed to be less honest.

You do know what relative means, right?

Let me quote something again for you, in case you forgot,

[

Town

]--Lightkun-hohum-alex--KK-Lester--------[

∙

]--ABR------Archon----qwints--Brian-[

Scum

]

Please keep that scale in mind before you start exaggerating about my position on you. I'm not saying you aren't honest, I'm saying in comparison to me or hohum. I just get the feeling like you're missing the big picture here.

Regarding the odds... there are games with a scumteam of 2 too. I'm not saying he is scum. I'm saying that we shouldn't leave him off the hook just because we think it's improbable.

Of course. Anyone can be scum, never trust in the obvious, it could be anybody... blah, blah, blah. I know that. Do you think I am saying he is untouchable?

Who else do you want to push a case on in so little time?

Chief or Archon could've easily collected votes in the same way cater did.

Archaist would watch LK.
LK would be killed.
we would find scum.

Archaist was a Tracker, not a Watcher.

---

Excuse me, but I have one question. Why aren't we lynching qwints?

You haven't given me a reason to change my vote from someone who I think is the better candidate.

---

But compared to Cateraction, [KK] was the scummier of the two wagons.

Why?

In fact, I was one of the few that actually took the time to make a case against him instead of bandwagon-hopping.

It's your position that it's just a coincidence that you and KK both saw Archaist as scummy?

I wanted something definitive. I hate vague claims, or breadcrumbs of claims.

Hmm, that's a tough standard to hold to. What about hohum's so-called soft claim?

All in all, RC, you seemed to like me a lot more yesterday than you do today. You've completely changed gears... what about me changed? That I was wrong about Cateraction? Forgive me for not knowing who the scum are.

For one, I never know you considered cater to be the most townie player in the game. Yesterday was D1, I don't so much as remember you ever addressing cater during the entire day, I remember you saying

multiple

times that you were liking KK more and more, yet despite all this, you still were adament about lynching KK over cater. I'd go as far as to say I sensed desparation in you trying to keep cater from being lynched.

Why? What comes across as so townie about cater's play to you at this post? Like I said, I don't think you've ever addressed him.

This is news to me, Brian is on record a couple of times backing away from the KK lynch because he sees him as more townie, but then he up and joins his wagon again at the deadline in order to protect the non-factor cater? Huh?

Would you answer this, please? This is the 800 lb. gorilla in the room, Brian. I don't get, especially as cater started to panic, how someone could've seen him as especially townie. Even if I grant you that cater's deadline actions ("I want to save my ass!", "I'm claiming a power role! No, I'm not. I'm claiming vanilla! No, I'm not.") weren't scummy, why was it so important to keep the lynch tied on D1? I simply have to think you had some sort of interest in keeping cater from being lynched.

If LK is lying, I wouldn't mind revealing the true doctor if it led to a second scum lynch.

This is both false and misleading.

Why would you automatically assume Light-kun is lying if someone cc'd him?

---

Oh, you make me feel warm and fuzzy inside!

You can join us anytime you'd like now, Archon. We're playing forum mafia.

---

I've got some sort of strange hybrid doc-jailkeeper role. "Paranoid Doctor" as the mod called it. This was the reason I didn't protect the tracker last night. If I protect someone, they stay alive but they also lose their ability to use their powers.

The whole game or just for that night? If it's just for one night then it seems like it's the same thing as a Jailkeeper.

In any case, this doesn't change all that much for me. I have faith that if hohum were a real Doctor he would've known to protect Archaist. I have no problem with a setup that has a Doctor/Jailkeeper (or Paranoid Doctor), I just got out of a game with both those roles in the town.

We need to verify who Light-kun saved of course, but other than that I still think we need to lynch either Brian, qwints, or Archon today.

I leave that decision up to the rest of you.

Well, I wouldn't want you to just resign here, hohum. I don't think you've done anything wrong. If this role strips someone of their powers, it was a tough call. It would've been nice to stop the mafia's NK, but you live and learn. Did you end up saving anyone else?

---

Given hohum's claim and archaist's flip, I don't buy LK's vanilla doctor claim. It seems to me we have a bunch of weak power roles and a normal doctor doesn't fit. I, also, have a weak power role.

I think a mass claim is a poor decision to make at this stage of the game. hohum's case was exceptional, I don't know why you claimed qwints.

Regardless whether or not the town is full of power roles, playing guessing games with the setup just distracts people from hunting.

Moreover, I'm noticing how quick qwints/Brian got on the offensive about Light-kun's claim.

Lest you people forget, we just had a Tracker die. Not a "weak power role" by any stretch of imagination.

I dislike qwints' soft claim and suggest no one else claim unless they have mafia revealing information.

[RedCoyote]

I have said this already, but I can keep saying it as many times as you'd like me to. I suspected KK because his early play was highly questionable. You even agreed with me that KK was acting scummily.

First of all, I never denied that I suspected KK. I had my vote on him early D1, and, as I said, it was a gradual process to get me to warm up to him as town. That's never been in question, so bringing this up shouldn't get you and sort of big "Aha!" points. This is a total red herring.

Secondly, I wasn't asking why you thought KK was scummy. You're dodging the real issue. The real issue is why KK was so much more scummy than cater was.

I did not address cateraction because he didn't have any play that was scummy. Before we were under deadline pressure, nobody accused cateraction of anything.

This is a lie.

Post 123.
Post 143.
Post 158.
Post 160.

Post 265.

[

Town

]---Brian-alex---Lester---Archon----Chief-qwints[

∙

]-KK-ppp-------Archaist-cater---Lightkun--[

Scum

]

Post 340.
Post 349.

Post 390.

Did [cater] just dodge our (Me + KK at least, maybe someone else asked) question? Why didn't [cater] unvote Archaist earlier, after he claimed?

I could go all day, baby. There are more posts than this, these are just specific posts that show me and alex calling out cater throughout Day 1.

It should've come as no surprise that at least alex and I were not happy with cater's play. For you to say "nobody accused cateraction of anything" is a flat out lie. With Light-kun claiming Doctor, and especially with Archaist claiming Tracker, cater was the next in line to be lynched with me from as far back as post 265.

Why do you single me out on this?

Because, bottom line, you were the one who pushed the hardest to keep us from lynching cater.

If you were being bandwagoned out of nowhere with less than 24 hours left in the day, you probably would have panicked too. I did not see the panic as a scum tell.

Even if I were to concede you this point, it doesn't explain why you had an interest in stonewalling the cater wagon on D1 after you were on the record saying that KK had looked more and more townie to you.

Heck, I even found you criticizing cater's activity.

Speaking of which, how's it going, cateraction? Glad you decided to show up, but I'd like to hear your opinion on a lot of the stuff that's been going down.

It doesn't make sense why you were so adament in stopping the cater lynch. The only conclusion I come up with is that you didn't want the Godfather lynched.

If they do, and LK is lynched and flips doctor, then the doctor-claimed scum just got themselves lynched on the next day.

So either hohum or Light-kun

must

be scum according to you, Brian?

You too thought KK's early behavior was scummy.

This is a red herring.

I never denied this, and I'm not attacking you for finding KK scummy.

You did not mention cateraction's name ONCE until you voted for him (go check your filtered posts, it's true).

This is, again, a lie, refer to posts 158, 160, 340, 390...

I implore anyone to look over these posts, the links are above. Brian is

lying

here, and I think we should all be concerned as to why he's attempting to smear my character with lies rather than addressing the fundamental question, why did he protect cater?

In that post you voted him, you also stated you would be OK with an Archon lynch, and implied that you'd be fine with lynching L-K.

I'm

still

okay with an Archon lynch, and I don't think I have to defend myself for feeling that way based on his play.

And I didn't imply that I was fine with a Light-kun lynch.

In your very next post, you said "If my hand is forced, I will vote KK", even though you kept saying over and over you felt he was town.

Yeah, if my hand is forced

means

if my hand is forced. I would've voted KK to stop a no lynch.

---

Sorry about the delay to answering, and thanks to Red's unbelievably logical breakdown of the wagons.

I've seen this situation too many times. There was no reason for you not to protect Archaist, so my thinking is already that you were roleblocked. A Roleblocker makes a lot of sense with a town loaded with possible Jailkeeper, Doctor, Tracker, and Cop roles.

Thanks though, I hope you read this post and realize how much of a sham Brian's post 555 is. It's completely loaded with lies about the town, and his essential answer to the question of why he refused to vote cater was that "he didn't know he was scum". Well, of course, but he didn't know KK was scum either, so that doesn't really answer the question. Given the situation he was in, there was no reason to defend cater by pushing for an extension, refusing to break the tie, accepting cater's doublespeak about his claim, or accepting cater's self-interested motivations.

---

I have a tendency to believe qwints at this point.

Which one? Why the sudden change of heart on qwints?

[RedCoyote]

Which one what? You asked a question out of context deliberately so that I can't give you an answer.

I like how you automatically assume I'm trying to frame you. XD

hohum, you've got to understand that right now you are probably my number one pick as town-sided. That's not going to be changing any time soon.

But I misread your quote. I asked "Which one?" because I thought you said "I have a tendency to believe qwints' point".

In any case, I really think you should be giving Brian a harder look. His way of defending himself for his deadline behavior yesterday is by making up lies about me, alex, and anyone else who suspected cater yesterday. He's trying to say cater was some sort of random pick that no one talked about, but look at the posts I provided. On multiple occasions cater was being asked tough questions, and I don't think he ever answered them satisfactorily. I didn't just get "lucky" in choosing cater, and Brian didn't just get "unlucky" in defending cater. There has to be a logical reason why Brian voted to lynch someone who he said was looking more and more town over someone who he had no identifiable opinion on yesterday. I contend that reason is because he had a vested interest in keeping the Godfather alive, what do you think it was?

[RedCoyote]

But it seems that [qwints is] looking to avoid suspicion by softclaiming.

I've got to agree with this. The Tracker's body isn't even cold yet and qwints is saying that he thinks all the roles are weak roles? I don't know what to make of it.

Granted, however, that I come from the mafia school of thought that says that mass claims are almost never good for the town; I'm always very resistant to them.

After yesterday's events. You're the most town-read I've got. Plus, by making you develop your points we analyze better the situation until we can be pretty certain that we're right.

Yeah, I'm feeling pretty good about you as town as well. I'm just trying to make perfectly sure that we're on the same page, I know I crammed a lot of information into my first post of today... basically I wanted to to say that I think the deadline snafu revealed that those on the cater wagon get some major townie points (especially hohum), and those on the KK wagon need to be scrutinized.

Investigation Inmune? Be pro town and that's solved.

XD

mmm... I don't know... maybe... But no one pushed the cases... We took the initiative.

Right, exactly. No one pushed the cases. It seems so odd to me that mafia would get themselves in a situation where it was two scum that had tied wagons on them. It seems like there would've been more of an effort to get someone else up there, you know, throughout the course of the game.

I'm feeling akward about this but I wouldn't deny [Archon's] lynch if [Archon] doesn't start posting soon.

I get what you are saying. I think I may have to (sigh) read his meta. I get the feeling Archon is just an anti-town player.

KK

, can I ask you, since you've played (or are playing) with him, what do you think about Archon's play?

---

I was gambling on the fact that [alex was] going to submit the kill. Apparently you didn't.

If what you say about your role is true, then this should still lower your suspicions somewhat.

The level of your arrogance and opportunism is blinding. [alex] picked me because you think I'm a weak target. [alex has] much as admitted that already.

I honestly don't get where you see alex is attacking you, hohum. You really need to take a couple of breaths before you fire off a response. You mentioned something about being emotional when you play, maybe you need to try having a drink or finding a way to relax yourself before you make a post. No one is insulting you, but many of your posts are unfairly vitriolic and accusative.

---

the three people whose role we learned yesterday were not vanilla. We also have two other players who aren't vanilla.

This

could

be a scumslip. I "learned" of two roles yesterday (cater/Archaist). Who is the third?

Archon's claim also alleviates my doubts about LK's claim somewhat. Either way, LK is not the lynch for today. I think we're much better off lynching the others on the KK wagon.

I think we should ask Archon to clarify what he meant before we proceed any further with this train of thought. He said he was a "townie" if I remember the quote correctly, but he could've meant that he was just town-sided, since he didn't specifically use the word vanilla.

Especially if you are planning on voting him qwints, I'd like to hear his response to that before I make any rash moves.

Seriously, our choice today has to be between Brian, Archon and me with Albert as distant fourth possibility.

It just strikes me as so odd that qwints has, like, come to terms with the fact that he is a valid lynch. Does anyone else know what to make of this?

Everything that qwints says, I just get this picture in my head that he is some guy who is dressed just like a mafia henchman, has a gun in his pocket, blood on his shoes... and he's holding up a sign that says "Lynch that guy -->".

qwints going after Archon makes me want to give Archon town points. XD

---

Fack. I filtered RC, searched for "cateraction", and jumped to conclusions without looking for "cat" or "cater". That was just plain dumb beyond belief.

I've got to believe this is a lie.

You definitely don't strike me as the type of player who would assume, literally the point of argument, that a player hadn't been seriously brought up over the course of ~15 pages of gameplay.

I think you're overstating my 'forgiveness' of KK. I highly suspected him, and then he improved from that. I did not call him guaranteed town.

I don't recall you ever calling cater guaranteed town either.

I feel like I keep being asked to defend cateraction even after he's been lynched and confirmed scum. This isn't something I'm comfortable with. I did not suspect him Day 1, and I am going to leave it at that.

Let's be honest, the town doesn't expect to lynch scum on D1. The first lynch of the game is always based on good intentions, but rarely does it amount to more than minor tells and the wanting the information the town derives from where everyone's vote was at the end of the day.

In other words, the first lynch is, in my opinion, more or less about just getting someone who isn't a power role lynched. You staying on KK and not ever considering (I know you never considered our points against cater because you just tried to argue that no one mentioned cater during D1) the things we had to say about cater (not

just

his deadline behavior but the other things people brought up) shows me that you were absolutely against a cater lynch

rather than

just more supportive of a KK lynch, as you claim.

Brian, I think you've painted yourself in a corner. The more you talk to me the worse you look.

[RedCoyote]

He reads like his real goal is build himself a meta where he's very unhelpful and anti-town so that he can get away with being scum. And he doesn't care how many games he loses in the process.

Scary. I've got to admit though, it makes me real nervous about supporting his lynch today.

---

LK. Vanilla townies don't fake claim power roles.

Like Light-kun, I retract this as well. I misunderstood your original comment.

---

Um, yeah. That's because I didn't. What's your point?

My point being that, yeah, you didn't call KK guaranteed town, but at least you can point back and say, "Here I called KK scummy, and here I called KK as getting more townie".

I can't do this with cater. I can't find posts you made where you said you liked what cater was saying, or you don't like the suspicions against him, etc. It's not as simple as saying that X is more scummy than Y.

I'll do an analogy. Let's say John is lactose intolerant, but he also hates apple juice. His buddy, Jeff, knows that John hates apple juice, but doesn't know he's lactose intolerant. When he tries to hand John a glass of milk and John insists that he will drink apple juice, Jeff is obviously going to be confused.

In other words, no, you didn't say cater was town, you didn't say

anything

about cater, and yet we are to assume he was good enough to you despite the problems laid out against cater, despite the gambit defense I assigned to KK, and despite you saying, on multiple occasions, that you were liking KK more and more.

Glad to see I'm not the only one not paying attention to every single detail in this game.

As hard as I'm pushing you, know that I am almost just as happy with a qwints lynch today as well.

I was against a cater lynch because I was more supportive of a KK lynch. They are tied together. I picked a side.

But I don't know you're lactose intolerant, Brian. Why would you choose the apple juice?

Like you said, maybe we're at an impasse. You say you decided your vote purely based on KK's early play, right? I can't accept that. I can't accept that you, as townie, were

that

uninterested in understanding why cater was the alternative lynch. It's not like you were alone, Light-kun was in your same position. Light-kun asked why cater was chosen, and I tried to give him quick summary of why. I have to think you ignored that, not because you made a "dumb mistake" or whatever reason you gave us, but because you had a reason to

not

look over cater's activity. So you revoted KK, asked the mod to extend the game, and crossed your fingers hoping that hohum would switch back over, Chief would show up and side with you, or something else would end up stalling the lynch.

[RC] accuses me of many things he himself is guilty of.

My accusations are based in your analysis, or lackthereof, of cater yesterday. I don't know how you can argue that I wasn't suspicious of cater yesterday.

[RedCoyote]

Cateraction is mango juice. Do I like mango juice or not? I never said anything about mango juice. I didn't say if I did or didn't like it.

I think you get the jist of the analogy; I guess you just don't see your offense as, well, an offense.

I think it is scummy for a player to not have an opinion on someone, not consider why it is others have a negative opinion on them, and use your vote on another player who you've said to be leaning more town on. The combination of all that, Brian, really sticks out to me, more than anything else I've seen this game.

---

I feel somewhat demeaned by [being called the apple juice]. :/

XD

All right guys put down the fruit drinks and let's catch some scum.

ROFL

---

As I've said. Brian suspecting KK along the game and after voting for me is consistent. It would've been suspicious if he voted Cater and cater flipped town. Anyway, in this case, being wrong throws suspicion on you because you NEVER interacted with cater and that could be you avoiding links with your partner.

If by consistent you mean consistently vauge:

And as much as it pains me to say it, Kublai Khan is feeling better to me with time. Though I still think your early game play was suspect, your response to a lot of the accusations against you has been reasonable. Posts 147, 149, 153 and 155 are good posts.

To me, it's not even really about him avoiding interaction with cater, I don't think that's great but that's not what gets him my vote. It's the fact that he

admits

he wasn't interested in the cater case, didn't make an effort to see why cater was the alternative lynch, asked the Mod to extend the game's deadline because cater was being lynched, and accepted cater's end of day behavior as townie behavior. Adding all of that up doesn't sit right with me.

As far as your push on Albert goes, I get the feeling you're just trying to pressure him some. I may be a little bias because the last game I played with Albert he played kind of the same way and I was just like you, I really wanted him lynched. It turned out he flipped as an important power role that won the game for the town.

---

So according to page one's first count, Qwints has two votes.
Let's discuss this!

Welcome to the game! You'll want to ask Albert and hohum directly the reasoning behind their votes, but if you want my own opinion on him, I'll give you a quick quote,

qwints

:

Cream had virtually nothing to look at, but as soon as qwints joins the game, rather than give an opinion on the players in the game and on the current Archaist wagon, he, quite oddly, comments on every single KK post in the game. This amounts to a few large walls that would become the basis of qwints' KK vote upon replacing and at the end of the day.

1) Saying he didn't attack Brian when he did and 2) saying he wasn't pushing a policy lynch when he was (I refer to ppp, not archon.)

His case boils down to this, the first point being invalid and the second point being a reach at best. He concedes the first point is bad (post 256) but says his attitude is still too defensive.

I just don't see what all the fuss is about at this point. I don't know if it's a coincidence that qwints, Archon, and Brian were all major KK attackers throughout the day.

Scummy: Archaist. Kublai Kahn, lightkun and cateraction
Towny: alexhans, ChiefSky, BMQ, RedCoyote
Don't know: Lester, ppp973, archon

cater was in qwints' scummy section here, but apparently not scummy enough to consider jumping over KK.

Qwints on the other hand, fits a scum role very well from what I've seen of him.

[...]

I think you're opportunistic scum pushing an easy wagon.

Vote: qwints

cater votes qwints, which was his first (and only) vote for anyone who didn't end up on his wagon. This could be distancing.

KK started out as my number one suspect and the complete dismissal of a PR on a flawed premise bothers me. Cateraction has been lurky and passive. No lynch is not really an option.

vote: Kublai Kahn

I will switch my vote if that's what it takes to avoid a tie

What I want to point about this is that qwints always had cater on his scummy side during D1, but what is particularly odd here is how qwints says he'll switch "to avoid a tie", but he never ends up doing this. Granted, he probably wasn't aware of the lynch going through despite a tie (as I wasn't either), but it still makes me a little uneasy.

Main issues with qwints:

∙ I see his original case on KK to be poor, and I see his intentional focus on KK as soon as he replaced to be a little short-sighted.
∙ cater is on qwints' list of four scummy people (along with Archaist, KK, and Light-kun), yet he never, in my opinion, truly considers his lynch. Although post 266 leads you to believe qwints would be happy with a cater

or

KK lynch, he keeps the votes tied and holds out for KK.
∙ The only person cater voted who ended up on the KK wagon at the end of the day was qwints, which could amount to distancing.

Moreover, I just wanted to say that you're in relatively good standing with me now, Skruffs. Lester put you in a pretty good spot, you've definitely got room to swing your weight and start some accusations.

---

BrianMcQueso's "oops" just doesn't feel sincere.

Agreed. I get the feeling he was trying to sweep his accusations under the rug by calling cater a random choice, but it ended up backfiring.

I will grant Brian that he may not have realized the

extent

with which cater was talked about, but he surely knew that cater's name was brought up.

---

Hm... I see your point on the ctrl+F "cateraction " thing, but I guess from my perspective a mafia player, having just lost their godfather, would do everything to not make a mistake like that.

Perhaps.

But, Light-kun, are you not concerned with why this didn't bother Brian in the first place? If he was so sure that KK was scum, not even willing to consider the alternative... then he must've either thought highly of cater, or lowly of KK, or both. If he thought highly of cater, show me the quotes where he says as much. If he thought lowly of KK, why is he on record saying that KK is "feeling better" with him?

Hell, why don't we ask Brian why he isn't voting KK right now?

Lester groans/skruff (abandoned because of GF lynch?)

Seems very unlikely. Why did Lester vote cater then?

---

I was not interested in a Cateraction lynch. Light-kun claimed doctor with literally less than 24 hours until deadline.

The deadline, I think, is your only saving grace, but if that's the case, if you weren't interested in pressuring cater at all, why did you push him for his claim?

If you'll notice, that's also a list of our least active people. When people don't talk a lot, I don't talk about them.

Be that as it may, you should still keep some minor tabs on what other conversations are going on. You mentioned at some point that you don't get a scum vibe off me, and I appreciate that, but who are you interested in pushing? As much as I'm asking you to defend yourself, I'd like to know who your suspects are as well.

---

Brian hasn't been quiet. If scum would be quiet, in my opinion, Brian doesn't fit that definition. Maybe Brian's just stupid scum? I mean, he's made a careless error and he's been very vocal, but this seems like something town aligned players are more likely to do.

I think my accusations of Brian as above and beyond any and all other cases (there are other cases?) that have been made today.

Aside from the recent pressuring of Albert for not rereading the thread, I've yet to see anything since my post 517 where I called out Brian, qwints, and Archon.

---

I can post pix if you need me to.

"Hey, uh, sis, can I get some pictures of you for MafiaScum.net? I need proof to show the mod that I had an excused V/LA!"

XD

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I'll go with either Albert or Archon. Anyway, I'd like to hear from Archon's replacement first.

I agree with the second part, but not the first.

Our lynch should definitely be Brian or qwints. I think Archon is too "shot-in-the-dark" at the moment, and I may just say the same thing about Albert. If anything Albert may need to be replaced as well. Archon's meta is conflicting, but Albert is playing to his town meta unless someone can prove otherwise. Right now that's about all I've got to go off either of them.

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I'm finding myself agreeing with Light-Kun on the issue of scum keeping quiet on Day 2. The way that the deadline lynch happened at the end of Day 1 is a smorgasbord of leads for Day 2 and anyone that is avoiding commenting on it is scummy as hell.

This is a pretty good point, I think you phrased it better than Light-kun did.

Still, I'm not convinced Brian or qwints have played much like town, and I'm conflicted on both Albert and Archon. Let's wait for the replacement, I have a feeling we can't get three bad replacements in a row. XD

[RedCoyote]

I guess we're just butting heads.

If y'all are really deadset on Brian as town, then we'll just wait for the Archon replacement. Like I said, I technically can't oppose an Archon lynch for his behavior, but reading some of his meta, and with KK's own input, I'm less supportive of it than I was before.

I will not lynch him before a replacement comes though.

[RedCoyote]

Who besides LK is "dead set" on Brian being town?

KK unvoted him, alex has said that he is opposed to lynching him at the moment,

[Brian and qwints] I can't entirely see as scum although they have they're share of scummy things.

Albert is tunnelled, hohum has shown no interest...

I don't know, just don't seem like anyone is interested in anyone but you, Archon, and Albert.

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Yes, yes I was. Congratulations on figuring that one out.

You're implying that you made a choice, when you've already admitted to us that you didn't choose. Defending cater is one thing, ignoring his Day 1 wagon, based on the lack of interaction you had with him, is another.

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@everyone: What do YOU think about that?

Well, given what qwints has already done, I guess him claiming won't make much of a difference anymore.

I was hoping to get Brian to claim because he was at L-1, not because we requested him to.

From my point of view, a claim could only help their chances of survival, depending on what it is.

Normally I'm opposed to claiming under most circumstances not lynch related, but I think I can support this.

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I'm not deadset on Brian is town, I think the evidence is insufficient. You're trying to paint the town red (hey, bad pun) by making false claims.

I'm sorry, but I'm frustrated, Light-kun.

I'm frustrated because Albert doesn't post, Archon's still missing, Skruffs was DOA, hohum, as someone who I am very confident is town, is not posting either.

All this, and it's like, I feel as though all the traction is still going to the Albert wagon because of his playstyle.

qwints and Light-kun, why did y'all not answer alex's question?

[RedCoyote]

@LK: You've spent a lot of time defending me for a bizarre switch like that. And "Crossing your fingers for scum blood"? You're acting like I've already been lynched! That's pretty bold for a second vote.

Does this deserve your vote?

Pardon me? I was capable of voting for either cateraction or KK (or, well anyone else). I voted for KK. How, in any way, is that not a choice?

When you never considered one of the possibilities, how are you really choosing anything?

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[Brian's] just sat down and expected us to vote qwints or someone else other than [him]... Why not try to scumhunt a little? Or [he] don't need to scumhunt to win?

Yes, yes, yes.

I don't care if Albert plays to his meta or not...

He posts with content or he is replaced...

I can't tell you how to use your vote. Albert, technically, is a reasonable lynch today. I don't support the lynch, I think my experience with him leads me to a townread, but I can't argue that it's a

bad

lynch per se.

DUDE!!! he SOFT-claimed!!! One of the five more scummy things to do...

No, I agree with you. qwints has not been the most town player here.

What's the difference? That you have an excuse? People won't suspect you for "trying to out a PR" or something?

There's a big difference. If people started claiming whenever they felt like, not because they were about to be lynched, then the town could theoretically lose almost all of its power.

From my point of view, a claim could only help their chances of survival, depending on what it is.

How?

Let's just say we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. A vanilla claim probably won't help Brian, but a power role may; I can't say for sure.

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If you're asking what I think about having Brian and I claim - all I am willing to say is that I have a limited ability.

alex thinks this is reasonable, I think it's a little silly. qwints, I don't get why you bothered soft claiming when you did if you are afraid to go all out now.

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Confirm vote Albert

Are you serious? He explained why he voted qwints. Perhaps not to your satisfaction, but he replied directly to you when he said that he found qwints scummy in a skim of the thread.

I saw nothing those showed me that Albert wasn't eventually going to give the thread a solid read.

Anyone has a problem with that? tell me why.

I think you are moving too fast.

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hohum, I really think you need to take a step back and take another look at the game, especially Brian's last pot on Day 1 and LK's reversal on Brian. These deserve more consideration than you're giving them. Alex (and you, for that matter) are simply not on the table for today's lynch. You both were instrumental in lynching the mafia godfather at the last minute. Furthermore, YOU BLOCKED alex last night. That means he can't be a mafia roleblocker (which LK's claim imply exist) in addition to requiring that he not send in the kill.

This is a very good post and an important reminder for the town in general as they try to assess the field for scum.

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Second: Red's case on Brian has made sense and continues to be one of the best cases with the exception of "mafia members would try to just float through the day" logic I presented. However, Qwints, I THINK, stated that Brian said too much at the end of yesterday to NOT speak today. (In other words, Brian is being forced, regardless of alignment, to speak today.)

With that point defeated, the best move I can make is support that lynch sense my one reservation is defeated. As said earlier in this post: Gut feelings don't trump strong cases, and that is the end of subject as to the "WTF" factor of my vote.

This makes sense to me as a reasoned, thought-out switch of suspicions. Like alex and qwints, I had some reservations with Light-kun's sudden switch, but given what he's said here, and the fact that we've all patiently waited for someone else to present the town with another serious case, but nothing so far as really bubbled to the surface.

Face it, out of the four people I think most of us can reasonably agree to lynch (the KK vote minus Light-kun), Archon's replacement hasn't got a chance to get started, and qwints is looking more town helpful than he did in the past.

What's left, Albert and Brian, are now the two people I think should be chosen from today.

RC, I want your opinion with the new influx of people back in the game.

Well, I guess you would be most interested in my opinion on Albert. I've told alex before and I will tell you now, Albert appears to be playing to his town-meta. I can send you a link to the specific game I'm talking about, but that's about it. I've only played with Albert once before, and he was doing some of the same things that game that he is doing now.

Like alex, my immediate explanation for Albert's, uh, reactionary playstyle, was that it was scummy. I mean, literally, I did the same thing that alex did in post 669 here, I quoted virtually everything Albert said in an attempt to show how he's active lurking. It turned out that he was an instrumental town power role that game. I'm not so opposed to an Albert lynch that I will start throwing things across the room, but I've seen nothing to dissuade my suspicions of Brian either. I won't be content with leaving Brian alive.

Rest assured that if hohum didn't vote when he did yesterday, I'd want him gone. hohum has zero excuse, in my opinion, to be pushing alex the way he has this entire game. He doesn't like alex personally, and it definitely shows.

Unlike hohum, Albert has been willing to at least speak about Brian.

qwints gets a couple of town points for post 681.

[

Town

]---hohum--alex--KK-----Lightkun--Skruffs-[

∙

]-Albert---qwints-Archon--------Brian--[

Scum

]

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, but his town-meta is easy to duplicate when he is scum. That's why he should be pressured. So far he's making his short posts with strong opinions and little details, then when someone questions him on it, he complains that questioning him is unfair because he's really busy with school. He's been repeating that pattern for 3 weeks now! And now he's stated that he won't be done with finals until after the deadline.

Look, I don't want to come across as an Albert defender here. I want him to post more too, I want a lot of people to post more, frankly.

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LK+Brian+Cater?

Very possible. You know, the quote you pulled out from post 344 makes me think that either Light-kun or qwints is cater's partner.

No reasoning but vote qwints?? what did [Albert] expect? a confession?

Far be it from me to speak for him, but perhaps he was gauging the town's reaction?

I saw nothing those showed me that Albert wasn't eventually going to give the thread a solid read.

has he?

I don't know, you'd have to ask him.

I think some people are moving too slow, or too scummy.

What do you mean by "too scummy"?

dude... You have one metaread on Albert and that makes you think he is town?

He's playing like town, but I don't know what he is. I don't think he's the worst threat to this town at the moment.

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Red: I don't understand... if hohum has been unwilling to speak about Brian, why is he most town?

Because of yesterday's vote.

[RedCoyote]

Furthermore, brian

did

express suspicion of cat.
(Iso 12/ 167]

I thought I had caught everything, but this quote must've slipped by me. Good find, qwints.

Brian put his neck out there for cater, his Godfather, with the hopes that one of the town members, likely hohum, would switch back to KK yesterday. This explanation makes so much more sense than Brian saying that he never considered cater at all, especially when you have the post that qwints just quoted.

[RedCoyote]

I think KK is willing to lynch him, hopefully we can convince alex that this is the best solution as well.

Albert, Skruffs, and Archon are gone, hohum is... hohum, and we can't expect Brian to vote himself.

Maybe if we're lucky the last mafia will be Brian and Archon or something like that.

[RedCoyote]

@RC: hope you'll be ready to spoon-feed my opinion to me tomorrow because I'll need some guidance.

No, hohum, it's not like that. I think qwints is another reasonable lynch, but I think he's done a lot to redeem himself lately.

Additionally, I think you've really carried on this feud with alex too long, and you should try to make peace, or at least, if you have to carry a grudge, grin and bear it for the rest of this game and just ignore him in any future games.

[RedCoyote]

We may need 2 replacements if Skruffs didn't answer his prod, Mod.

[RedCoyote]

lol... I had the same wish. But we can not gamble with that. We SHOULD get replacements.

You're right, I'm just frustrated. I don't understand why people don't want to replace. I guess I should be more proactive and replace as an exchange thing, but 3 games is kind of my personal limit.

So we have ourselves a smart coyote XD

I actually didn't notice I had typed it that way until I submitted the post. The pun wasn't intended, hehe.

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What has [qwints] done to redeem himself?

Posts 690 and 691 are good for me. I think qwints made a sincere vote switch. qwints, as far as I can tell, has always been open to Brianscum, he's just been more interested in Archon most of today.

He found a quote that seems to have swayed him, and I can't turn around and say that qwints is just saying something I already said because I overlooked that quote when I was arguing with Brian. The idea is the same, that Brian's interaction with cater was suspicious, but it may never have been found if not for qwints bringing it up here.

I think 681 is another good post,

hohum, I really think you need to take a step back and take another look at the game, especially Brian's last pot on Day 1 and LK's reversal on Brian. These deserve more consideration than you're giving them. Alex (and you, for that matter) are simply not on the table for today's lynch. You both were instrumental in lynching the mafia godfather at the last minute. Furthermore, YOU BLOCKED alex last night. That means he can't be a mafia roleblocker (which LK's claim imply exist) in addition to requiring that he not send in the kill.

This is a precise reminder of what happened this game, an aggressive stance on taking control of the lynch, and it doesn't come across as something that's been said again and again. This is an all-around solid post that should not only apply to hohum, but to everyone trying to figure the game out.

Granted, I don't like qwints' soft claim and I don't care for his D1 deadline behavior too much, but I would much prefer Brian at this point.

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If Brian and someone else abandons, I might quit too.

I'd say, even without his claim, we could let this lynch go through.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love his claim, but I think if Brian had an important claim he wouldn't have let this game get away from him.

[RedCoyote]

I appreciate your willingness to try and get Skruffs to give some feedback, unfortunately I think we've got a dud with Skruffs. Hopefully he'll show us a better side tomorrow.

[RedCoyote]

Awesome! Especially alex and qwints, you guys rocked!

Thanks to the Mod for a good game. Despite replacement problems, the town managed to stick this one out.

No wonder the poor mafia was all shaken up, both Light-kun and cater were pushed pretty hard on D1. Brian, sorry to hear about you losing your job! Tough luck all around for sure.

A shame Johnny Rotten did all that reading basically just to vote once and then game over, lol, but thanks very much for replacing anyways.

I'd like to think I would've had it down between Albert and Light-kun on D3, but who knows. Now I know why Light-kun was so weary of voting Brian yesterday. Brian, I had to think you were just stuck between a rock and a hard place on the end of D1, right? Deciding whether or not to bus or take the risk with the hopes that someone like hohum would switch back to KK or the deadline would be extended? That was definitely a tough call.

Good game everyone!

[RedCoyote]

Game MVP goes to RedCoyote!

Thank you... I dedicate this award to the (good) people of Lynchville!!

1)Did i prod too often/ often enough?
2)Was the flavor overkill?
3)What do you think of the setup?
4)Did i post votecounts often enough?
5)Did you ever use the votecount in the first post?
6)What could i have done differently to make the game better?

1) Prods were fine from my end.
2) No, I don't think so. The descriptions were all fine. I especially like how the town Tracker owned a Geo Tracker.
3) I liked the setup. I think, like you said, there's plenty of opportunity for WIFOM in night actions.
4) I generally like to see one vote count every page.
5) Oh, no, I usually check the first post for replacement people and to check if I included everyone in a scale or something. I didn't check it for vote counts.
6) Like I said, I prefer a vote count every page. Other than that I thought you did fine.

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I think that they should've resigned LK when they could... Even though he was a strong PR... not doing so lost them the game because his whishy washiness on D1 had been extremely opportunistic.

Wasn't there a point earlier in D2 when were arguing that either Light-kun or Brian should be lynched? XD

But I forgot you had called the scum team in post 686, that was good foresight.

You were the town's unofficial cop. You did what you had to do and posted great points.

<3

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And the MVP does go deservedly to RedCoyote. As much as it hurt my ego, you were right in your observation that if I were scum I wouldn't have the balls to vote a claimed power role then leave at deadline.

Thanks, KK. I'm glad we were all able to hold Brian to the noose on D2. I was getting so worried that he was being pressed too hard, too fast, and that people would get tired of hearing about him by the end of the day. It helps when the town is full of good, logical scumhunters like KK

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I obviously thought LK was quite scummy, but this was the post that made me pull the trigger. Hohum was so obviously town after D1 that the attempt to save LK felt forced. So, when Brian flipped town I was willing to pull the trigger. Especially considering that I was likely the lynch on D3.

It's hard for me to say the shot was ballsy after we lynched two scum in a row, lol, but I'm so glad you ended up using your power. I'm glad you had the patience to read Brian closely before you shot too.

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Well, turns out I didn't have too much impact......thanks for having me though! It was fun while it lasted!!

I will say that if the game had gone into D3 I'm glad for the input you did have. I almost immediately felt relief from you coming in and taking the time to read the thread, it seemed very pro-town.