Mini 771 - Mafia in Ludd: Game Over

[Yosarian2]

Hi, everyone. Cool, the game started.

In other news, meh on the GC-camm thing; camm looks like she was just trying to get reactions, which is fine on page 1-2, and GC looks like he's trying to get something non-random going, which is also good for page 1-2. Camm's OMGUS GC vote bugs me a little, but IMHO there was nothing wrong with the initial charter vote.

Meh on the "Incognito didn't confirm as soon as he could have" thing, too.

In conclusion,

vote Xdaamno

.

[Yosarian2]

I don't like Yos' wishy-washy post 39. He's "meh" on both semi-serious points of discussion, and votes randomly, apparently.

Randomally? Of course not, what gave you that idea?

[Yosarian2]

Also, I'm curious as to what you think I was being wishy washy about; saying "meh" does not make me wishy washy when I pretty specifically state that I'm not suspicious of either Camm or GC based on their exchange; I thought I made my opinions pretty clear.

=======================

Page 3 Votecount

camn (2/7): Korts, Green Crayons
charter (0/7):
DizzyIzzyB13 (1/7): Ether,
Ether (0/7):
Green Crayons (2/7): Xdaamno, camn
Incognito (0/7):
Korts (0/7):
OhGodMyLife (0/7):
Patrick (1/7): Incognito
skitzer (1/7): charter
Xdaamno (1/7): Yosarian2
Yosarian2 (0/7):

Not voting (4/12):

OhGodMyLife, skitzer, DizzyIzzyB13, Patrick

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Countdown To Deadline
============================

[Yosarian2]

I don't like Yos' wishy-washy post 39. He's "meh" on both semi-serious points of discussion, and votes randomly, apparently.

Randomally? Of course not, what gave you that idea?

Your vote having seemingly no relvence to the rest of your post indicates randomness. If it;'s not random, explain, please!

Ok; the reason I thought it would be clear is that I generally wouldn't make a completly random vote with other stuff going on.

Which isn't to say I had an especally strong reason to vote; just that I wasn't interested in voting GC or Camm, I wasn't interested in voting Ether or Incognito; I was tempted to vote someone who hadn't posted yet, as per my standard vote at that stage, but everyone had posted; I wanted to vote patrick, but he already is managing to give me pro-town vibes with his magical "I always give Yosarian protown vibes" machine, damn his eyes; after reading everyone's posts, the person who seemed the least pro-town to me, by some tiny percentage, was Xyl, since this was his only post to date:

Vote: Green Crayons

wagon '09 wooooo

[Yosarian2]

I apologize: wishy washy wasn't the term I was looking for. On the fence, I meant.

Not really on the fence either; if two people are fighting, and I say that I don't really think either one of them looks scummy, that's not being on the fense, is it?

[Yosarian2]

I don't like Yos' wishy-washy post 39. He's "meh" on both semi-serious points of discussion, and votes randomly, apparently.

Randomally? Of course not, what gave you that idea?

You gave no reason, and it was your first post, so it's a natural assumption that the vote was arbitrarily placed.

Yeah; fair enough.

[Yosarian2]

Plus, I challenge anyone to show me a game where charter doesn't act super-scummy.

Actually, last time I played with charter, I really thought he was town, and he was actually a mafia spy. Of course, that was a marathon game and I had like 2 pages of info to go on, but still.

[Yosarian2]

39- Yos, where do you get camn was trying to get reactions? of who?

Eh; her "I'm going to vote charter becuase he always looks scummy" thing looked to me like basically a random vote, but one modified to be more likely to get reactions, especally a reaction from you (even if no one else had commented on it, I'd expect you to respond to it in some way, which is more of a reaction then most random votes get.)

50- Yos, your second "meh" in your post didn't make anything clear.

Fair enough. By the "meh on the incongito thing" I was saying I didn't think much of Ether's inital attack on Incognito based on the possibly-not-confirming-right-away thing.

[Yosarian2]

Looks like to me she's being pouty ...

You write that like it's a bad thing.....

Camm...you know, it would help if you actually responded to the legitimate arguments he was making against you, instead of just making jokes...

[Yosarian2]

I was tempted to vote someone who hadn't posted yet, as per my standard vote at that stage, but everyone had posted

Your attention to detail is lacking. This is my first post.

Yeah, i noticed that later.

I wanted to vote patrick, but he already is managing to give me pro-town vibes with his magical "I always give Yosarian protown vibes" machine, damn his eyes

I'd love for you to elucidate on this. As of post 45, the only vibe I'm getting from Patrick is that he's been unusually non-interactive.

Don't mind me...like I was saying, I always seem to read Patrick as town, something about his tone. Probably dosn't mean anything.

I am wondering, though, why you think Patrick is scum.

[Yosarian2]

My reactions to the GC/X fight:

GC looks really town in post 102 and post 111. Also, just as GC started to look really, really town to me, Camn said:

Unvote : Green Crayons

You rule.

Which makes me feel better about her; when someone else seems to react the same way I do at the same time, it makes me think we might be looking at the game from the same perspetive..

I like this point and question of Ether's:

I could flip to Xdaamno or Korts. I'm all for Xdaamno accepting Patrick's defense--except that he's still voting him. Which is it? )

While I think both are leaning town, I think Dizzy is more firmly in the town camp than Ether at this point. So stick that in your pipe. (<3)

wut

Also a good question, actually; I have no real read on Izzy at the moment, and I'm curious why GC thinks she's town.

Perhaps the vote is obsolete. I haven't done the mental legwork to decide if I think it is or not. Therefore, the 'expected value' of pressure from this vote is still above 0 (and would be even if we all believed otherwise, because we could all potentially be wrong.) If there is no negative to keeping my vote here, I'm drawing a net positive and so it's not worth removing.

...

He's doing a lot of bobbing and weaving here. Which makes me feel like Ether landed a solid hit. Also, while he can't give a good reason for specifically keeping his vote on Patrick, I notice he still dosn't move it in this post.

You're blatantly ignoring what I have said. I showed why the vote could have some kind of purpose, and said I wanted you to either show me the benifet of removing it, or show why it cannot possibly have any value. You have failed to do either. Yes, the vote is probably useless. However, that small chance of being useful (by some strange mechanic) in and of itself makes the vote useful. Read this paragraph until you understand what I am saying.

The point is, we have enough information at this point so you should be able to have some kind of better-then-random vote on someone. Do you think your vote on Patrick is more likely to be on scum then a random vote would be? Because it really didn't sound like it based on your earlier posts.

[Yosarian2]

In my experience. . scum don't drop atom bombs on people day 1.

Oh, speaking of which, I'm a miller.

[Yosarian2]

Well that makes things easy.

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian2

I may or may not fully explain myself in regards to Patrick today, but in all likelihood I'll still be gunning for him tomorrow so it can probably wait. Yosarian2 just claimed scum.

No, I'm not a scum, I'm a miller.

I had to claim miller day 1 because the odds of me getting investigated are too high to risk not claiming. Note I did the same thing last time I was a miller.

Why, do you really think claiming miller day 1 is a bad move for a miller, especally one who gets investigated a lot?

[Yosarian2]

I think claiming miller day one

in your very first post

is the right move to make as miller. If you don't, you're better off just being pro town and hoping you don't get investigated.

That's dumb, though. It dosn't make any difference if you claim "in your first post" or if you claim a little later in the day at all, so long as you claim before the first night.

I was going to wait until the game stalled, or I had a chance to get a good reaction, or something, but screw it; I can never resists a good streight line like that. Still, dosn't matter; there is absolutly no difference between claiming miller "in the first post" or doing it some other time before the end of the day. And "hoping I don't get investigated" would be a stupid move for me.

[Yosarian2]

So, OGML; is this some sort of policy vote, or do you actually think, based on everything you know about me and on everything I've posted in thread so far this game, that I am scum?

[Yosarian2]

LOL!

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian

I have to see how you get out of this.

Oh, I probably don't; if I don't get lynched today, I expect to get vig killed. Which, of course, is why I would never be stupid enough to claim miller as scum, but you're going to cry WIFOM and lynch me anyway.

Why would we want a claimed miller of your caliber alive in endgame?

Because I'm town.

[Yosarian2]

I'mma

unvote; vote: Yosarian2

. Filtering his posts, there's just not a lot there. And I hate the claim. (I don't think Incognito is scum. The Patrick/Yosarian connection is too blatant for my tastes as well.)

Hmm. Surprising, Ether was the one person I didn't think would vote for me on a knee jerk reaction just because I'm a miller.

I guess Incog is right; she's probably scum; town Ether generally knows better then this.

Vote:Ether

[Yosarian2]

Really, though, if people actually think I'm scum and this isn't just a "der lynch the miller der" policy vote, I'd really like someone to explain why they thing I would do something this godawefully stupid on day 1 as scum, or find one example in all the hundreds of games I've played of me EVER doing a hugely risky gambit on day 1 for no reason, or to give SOME kind of logical reason why I would want to to do this as scum.

Do people think I'm a VI now or soemthing? Because I'd have to be to claim miller if I wasn't one.

[Yosarian2]

So, OGML; is this some sort of policy vote, or do you actually think, based on everything you know about me and on everything I've posted in thread so far this game, that I am scum?

This is no policy vote.

This is a lie by the way. OMGL voted right after he claimed, giving virtually no hint of moving his vote onto Yos before the claim.

(nods) No one did. I was clearly in absolutly no danger at all before my claim. And he also has yet to explain how claiming on page 8 when I'm in absolutly no danger is any worse then claiming on page 1, unless with his little play there he's seriously trying to suggest that I'm trying to get myself lynched in order to protect my scumbuddy, and that's just

[Yosarian2]

I disagree with Yos that the placement of his claim within the day has absolutely no impact on our perception of his claim. The very fact that it has impacted my perception proves that this is false.

Oh, sure it has an impact; i was just saying that OGML's rule ("miller MUST claim start of day 1, or NEVER CLAIM AT ALL!!!11!") is foolish, since as far as preventing a wasted cop investigaton goes, it dosn't matter when during day 1 the miller claims.

That said, I think the reasons for Yos revealing miller status are lame and short-sighted (and a bit self-centered).

(shrug) I've come to the conclusion that claiming miller day 1 is generally a good idea, since a miller claim really dosn't do much harm to the town, while an unclaimed miller is a huge threat to the town; if a cop outs himself on day 2 in order to get a townie lynched, the odds of the town winning go way down.

[Yosarian2]

Where did I ever say that Ether was scum? I've pretty clearly stated that I think Ether's town. Also why did you ignore my 186?

Ah, I missed that; I just made a couple of quick posts 5:30 this morning in the few minutes I have before work.

ANyway, that game I was talking about in that thread happened a long time ago.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) The one time I was a miller, I didn't claim miller

...either Yosarian2 has been Miller once again in the past two (2) months, or he's lying somewhere.

Oh, yeah, it was a marathon day game; I played the miller role pretty much the exact same way I've played here, and it helped the town win. Here, let me find it:

viewtopic.php?t=11047&postdays=0&postor ... &&start=25

[Yosarian2]

Scum list:

Ether:60% likely to be scum. Incog, sorry if I misrepresneted you there; but in any case, I've played a lot of games with town-Ether, and Ether's most recent post does NOT look like town-Ether. Incognito, I'd be interested to hear your opinion about that, since I know you have had a lot of experence with her meta as well. Just take a look at this post again:

Patrick, I worried about you very early on in i10, too, before moving on, even if I didn't say it out loud. There it was more anxiousness for you to post; here your posts on Page 1 actually bugged me a bit. I twitched at your apathetic acknowledgement of my Incogvote, and again at that vagueness with Skitzer in your 20. Yeah, I dismissed it, but it was there.

I'mma

unvote; vote: Yosarian2

. Filtering his posts, there's just not a lot there. And I hate the claim. (I don't think Incognito is scum. The Patrick/Yosarian connection is too blatant for my tastes as well.)

Having said that, I would

still

like Izzy's and Xdaamno's top threes, and I am

still

eagerly awaiting Korts's catchup post.

Bandwagony. Note she dosn't vote me specifically for the miller claim, she dosn't even mention it; she comes up with another, quite weak IMHO, reason to vote me. When Ether's town, she can usually spot town-Yos a mile away; this kind of weak bandwagony stuff really does not feel to me like Ether's normal town play. What do you think, Incog?

OGML: 50%. I could see him acting like this as town, but I could more easily see him as scum acting like this; as scum, OGML tends to be very direct in going directly for what he wants, in bandwagoning agressivly, and such; my scum meta on him is he's the kind of guy who, when he's a godfather in a vengeful, he ALWAYS hammers.

Xdaamno: 35-40% or so. A little more likely then random to be scum, based on some early game vibes; nothing solid.

=======================

Page 10 Votecount

camn (0/7):
charter (0/7):
DizzyIzzyB13 (1/7): Incognito,
Ether (1/7): Yosarian2
Green Crayons (0/7):
Incognito (0/7):
Korts (0/7):
OhGodMyLife (0/7):
Patrick (1/7): Xdaamno
skitzer (0/7):
Xdaamno (2/7): Green Crayons, Patrick
Yosarian2 (4/7): OhGodMyLife, camn, charter, Ether

Not voting (3/12):

skitzer, DizzyIzzyB13, Korts

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Countdown To Deadline
============================

[Yosarian2]

Yos: In the marathon game you linked to, you claimed miller because you were in a very specific situation: on the following day, the town could be in a LYLO situation. That was the driving force behind your reversal of your February miller strategy, the unique and "dire" situation you found yourself.

How did that single, highly selective/unique scenario change your mind on your general miller strategy? Because it worked once in a marathon game?

It worked in the marathon game, plus I believe the meta has shifted, to a point where a miller claiming miller is a much more viable option then it would have been in the 2006 meta, in the game I was talking about in that thread.

Plus, I didn't have this horrible little "best manipulater" paranoia-inducing tag attached to my name back then, so I wasn't anywhere near as likely to draw random cop investigations as I am now.

[Yosarian2]

Yos - are you basing your entire scum meta of me on our games at Beach Bam?

Um...mostly, I suppose; play 50 or so games with someone and you start to know how they tick, I think. Why, do you think your forum scum meta is significantly different then in face to face games? How so?

[Yosarian2]

I do not like this miller claim one bit. Yos is a skilled enough player to be able to avoid suspicion if he wants to, without needing to claim at this point. It makes no sense to me.

There is absolutly no way to avoid random paranoia, izzy. If you don't believe me, look and see how many times I've gotten mislynched or vigged as town recently...

Yeah, I agree with GC. I don't think Yos truly believes there is "absolutely no difference" between claiming now and claiming earlier, or even claiming later today. Your insistence that this would be a stupid scum move also seems a little off, because of the WIFOM.

Do you disagree with me that the odds of me being lynched now are WAY higher then they would have been if I hadn't claimed miller?

WIFOM it back and fourth as much as you want, it would be an idiotic move.

Plus, Yosarian thinking "I have played 100s of games, yawn.... I wonder if I can pull this off? If I can, then I win, and = legend."

And...no. I take mafia way too seriously for that. Every game I play, I play to win.

[Yosarian2]

I think we all developed very specific metas after playing 50 or so games with the same five people. Especially playing 50 games of a very specific format which is wholly unlike most forum games. And yes, I think the way I play in person is a lot more fast and loose than the way I play on the forum, so basing your read of me in this game on a meta developed off the forum is not a good method of scumhunting.

(shrug) Well, we're only 10 pages into day 1, and as I said, I'm still kind of 50/50 on you so far. Still, the tone of your posts, the agressivness, the...well, the taking advantage of a sudden oppertunity, I suppose, are about what I would normally expect from you as scum. From most people, I would take leading a bandwagon to generally be a town tell, but not from you; I'd expect you to do that as often as scum as when you're town. Am I wrong to think that?

Plus, I didn't have this horrible little "best manipulater" paranoia-inducing tag attached to my name back then, so I wasn't anywhere near as likely to draw random cop investigations as I am now.

I can see this argument being made in a game full of inexperienced players, but nobody in this game is a newbie. Did you really think it was likely that you would draw a "random" investigation in this game?

Reasonably likely, sure.

Anyway, you realize you are contradicting yourself here, right? Your case against me was:

Yosarian2 as scum - *gets paranoid about how often he draws investigations on a regular basis, combined with what even he could probably tell was sub par play, and a higher than average player caliber surrounding him, decides claiming miller and banking on the WIFOM-o-licious why would Yosarian2 scum claim miller reaction to get him out of a lynch.*

Your whole case against me is your theory that I, as scum, was worried about "how often I draw investigations." So now you're trying to claim that I, as town, wouldn't be worried that I might have a higher then average chance of drawing an investigation? Which one is it; do you think I'm more likely to draw a cop investigation then a random person, or not?

[Yosarian2]

Hi-ho straw man. See the line "combined with what he could probably tell was sub par play, and a higher than average player caliber surrounding him" for reasons why I'm not contradicting myself.

You still are, though, since I'm surrounded by the same high caliber of players in both cases, and you're talking about this game both times. Either I'm "paranoid" that I'm especally likely to get investigated in this game, with these players, or I'm not. You can't have it both ways.

I don't like how you're backing me into this weird corner where I have to provide a self-meta either. The question regarding whether I lead wagons or not when I'm scum is very much loaded to make me look bad no matter what I say.

Hey, you backed yourself into the corner.

I, as part of my scumhunting, stated my opinion on you, which is largely based on my meta on you. You seemed to dispute my meta on you in a fuzzy kind of way, so I'm asking you streight out if you think my meta on you is accurate or not.

If it is, that dosn't necessarally mean you're scum, since I'm sure you lead bad wagons as town as well as when you're scum. And if it's not, I'd be interested to know that. Either way, it's certanly not an unreasonable question.

I haven't been scum very often in forum games, but you and others are perfectly capable of reading the games where I was scum and deciding for yourself.

So, you're simply not going to answer the question? Interesting.

[Yosarian2]

And to answer your final question, at the point when you claimed, you were more likely than a random person to draw a cop investigation

based on your play up to that point

.

Pshaw. There was nothing wrong with my play up to that point, and you know it.

You also very clearly demonstrate that

you

believe, even apart from your play in the game, that given a random investigation you are a likely target. So a pre-emptive miller claim makes plenty of sense as scum.

If I believe that given a random investigation I am a likely target, then a pre-emptive miller claim makes pleanty of sense when I actually am a pro-town miller, does it not?

[Yosarian2]

:eyebrow: You mean you actually meant that silly play seriously? Do I really have to go through and list in detail how every single thing you said was a completly absurd misrepresentation of my posts? Ok, fine.

Yos: Meh, I say. Meh! Also, vote X

Translation to reality: Yos analyzes the two main issues going on in thread at the point, decides neither argument is convincing and explains that pretty clearly, so Yos scumhunts elsewhere.

Yos: Random? Why of course not.

Well, yeah. I still don't really get how anyone would assume I would make a whole big post with analysis and stuff and then end it with a random vote...

Yos: While I'm at it, let me defend my use of the word meh. It was not wishy washy. It just means I am not making any definitive statements about the alignments of any players involved in any debates so far.

Oh, thats what wishy washy is? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Funny, but completly and totally inaccurate.

Yos: Ummm... everyone had posted already, so my standard random vote would not apply. *Cough* Let me just reiterate that I still haven't found anything to comment on in the ongoing debates between other players. But X's only post so far was like totally not townly. Srsly.

Come on, man, if you're trying to be funny actually quote the silly post I made; it was a lot funnier then that, and not nearly so serious.

Anyway, reading the first 2 pages of the game, Xdaamno's single post *was* scummier then the net contrabutions of any other single player. Do you disagree?

Yos: Also, I will now give a reason for why my reads on Patrick can't be trusted and therefore I probably will never meaningfully comment on Patrick's alignment.

Right, right, jokes are scummy, I forgot.

In the joking post you misquoted just above, I made a joke about how I was going to vote for Patrick except I couldn't because he ozzed pro-town-ness. I then had to actually explain that, yes, this was a joke, based on the fact Patrick always looks pro-town to me. Now you're attacking me for having to explain my joke? Sheesh.

By the way, "my gut usually gives me a pro-town read on Patrick" does NOT mean "I won't be able to figure out Patrick's alignment or get a real read on him", by ANY streach of the imagination.

Let me just stop again here; did you really mean this as a serious attack on me, OGML?

Yos: Not on the fence. But while I'm at it, let me also make excuses for why my reads on charter are probably not going to ever be valid either.

ANd here I have absolutly no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Others: More questions about meh.
Yos: Defend, defend, defend about my mehs.

Blah, blah.

Yos: I'll just fan the argument flames from the sidelines.

Complete and total lie, since I actually said that they both looked town, which is the exact opposite of what you're claiming I did. We've moved waaayy beyond simple misrepresentation here...

Yos: I'll just rehash statements about not reading Patrick. And question why anyone would think he is scum
Yos: Ah, the perfect moment to finally make some comment about something going on around me. I'll begin by joining the growing chorus of people who find Green Crayons to be strikingly town. And devilishly handsome. I'll follow that up with a quick buddy up to camn, because you can never have too many friends. Finally I'll throw in some unsolicited support for Ether v. Xdaamno with a boxing metaphor just to make sure that keeps going while I sit over here comfortably on the sidelines. To finish, let me just tell Xdaamno that we most certainly have enough information now to better-than-random vote someone (so you should probably get off Patrick already). Don't mind that my vote hasn't moved since my barely better than random initial vote for you.

Lol. Mock me if you want, but if you have an actual problem with my post, you're going to have to say what part of it you disagree with.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian in Post 225: Your percentage on OGML is 50%, which I think is kind of that icky fence-sitting/kissy-kissy to the person who started this case on you.

Are you kidding me? You think "50% scum" is "fense sitting" or "kissy face"??

Dude, if you get as high as a 50% chance someone is scum 10 pages into day 1, it usually means "LYNCH THAT PERSON INSTANTLY", since town generally does FAR worse then be right 50% of the time on day 1. Only reason I'm not voting him is Ether is even scummier.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm...I think we were interpretting differently here.

I was speaking much more on an individual basis, where 50/50 is like uncertainty. You, on the other hand, seem to speaking more towards a group perspective (although your percentages wouldn't add up correctly), so if you feel that strongly, then I understand.

Well, you don't have to worry about them adding up; those are independent, since there are going to be more then one scum anyway.

But, yeah; sorry if I wasn't clear, but when I said "60% chance Ether is scum, 50% chance OGML is scum, 35-40% chance Xdaamno is scum" that is what I meant; if we lynch Ether, I think we're 60% likely to hit scum. Keep in mind that a random lynch is usually about 25% likely to hit scum in an average game.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian2, as GC implied, I think the scenario for where you claimed Miller in the Marathon Day game that you linked to was certainly much more warranted than the scenario that we have here. If you really are town here, I think your claim is extremely sloppy and very poorly thought out, and I strongly suggest you shape up your play in a major way otherwise you almost certainly will get mislynched.

How is it "sloppy" or "poorly thought out"? I did think it out, and decided before the game started that I would claim miller at some point during day 1.

You are certanly right that the marathon game is a different scenerio; I only quoted it here because you suspected me of lying when I was telling the truth. However, in general, I think this principle applies:

If a miller claims day 1, he is not much less useful to the town then a claimed townie. Of course he can't be investigated, but most of the people in a game can't be investigated anyway, just because the cop usually only has a chance to investigate 3 or so people out of 12.

On the other hand, an unclaimed miller can be a huge liability to the town; day 2 or day 3 or whatever, cop claims with a guilty on me, I claim miller in response to the claim, I get lynched, cop is outed, cop probably gets nightkilled. Result: Almost guarenteed mislynch, wasted cop investigation, cop outed. If I claim day 1, either I get lynched on my own or I don't, there's no other cost to the town.

I don't personally think my claim is "poorly thought out" at all, Incog; it was something that I now think had to be done day 1, as much as I didn't want to. (And yes, my mafia theory on the subject has changed over time.)

It worked in the marathon game, plus I believe the meta has shifted, to a point where a miller claiming miller is a much more viable option then it would have been in the 2006 meta, in the game I was talking about in that thread.

In what way do you believe the meta has shifted specifically? If you're telling the truth about being a miller, I personally think the more appropriate action would have been the one you suggested within the MD thread, so I'm curious as to why you feel otherwise.

See above for why I feel otherwise.

As for your Ether-read:

Actually, she

did

comment on your Miller claim:

I'mma

unvote; vote: Yosarian2

. Filtering his posts, there's just not a lot there.

And I hate the claim.

(I don't think Incognito is scum. The Patrick/Yosarian connection is too blatant for my tastes as well.)

In fact, in the post where you actually went ahead and placed your vote on her, you acknowledged this and used it as

reason

to switch your vote to her:

Hmm. Surprising,

Ether was the one person I didn't think would vote for me on a knee jerk reaction just because I'm a miller.

I guess Incog is right; she's probably scum; town Ether generally knows better then this.

Vote:Ether

And now in your most recent post, you use the fact that

she didn't comment on your claim

as one of the reasons to give her a 60% scum read? Which is it exactly: because she used your claim as part of her reason to vote you or because she didn't comment on it? Those two reasons are on completely opposite ends of the spectrum.

I'll go into this more later; going to have to end this post now, have to go to work in a minute or two. Let me just say that I don't think there's a contradiction there; she joined my wagon, she didn't really talk about the miller claim (other then a vauge "I hate the claim" thing you pointed out) and made some other vauge excuse for joining the wagon. On the other hand, while she didn't really talk about it, of COURSE she joined the wagon on me because of the miller claim; that was the whole point of the wagon on me, that was the event that caused me to be wagoned.

The post really dosn't feel like town-Ether to me. It also looks oppertunistic in a scummy way.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: I don't think your 249 explained your view on how the meta shifted. You simply explained a shift in your opinion of what a miller should do. Please clarify how the meta itself has changed.

Ok, sure.

In 2006, when the earlier game had taken place, my opinion of the meta at the time was that a claimed miller would basically have a 100% chance of being lynched. Now, based on some games I have observed and on that MD thread and other MD threads, I'm pretty sure that claiming miller as miller is a more acceptable stratagy, and that the odds of a miller being lynched on the spot are down to about, say, 60% or something, just to pull a number out of thin air. Still very high, and even if not lynched a claimed miller still alwyas gets a lot of negitive attention and lingering suspicon usually for the entire rest of the game; but the fact that it's not always suicide anymore made the risks of me not claiming seem higher to the town seem higher to me then the risks of claiming.

I don't like these two Yos quotes put together, my emphasis:

"Note [Ether]

dosn't vote me specifically for the miller claim, she dosn't even mention it

; she comes up with another, quite weak IMHO, reason to vote me." (225)
"Let me just say that I don't think there's a contradiction there; she joined my wagon,

she didn't really talk about the miller claim

(other then a vauge "I hate the claim" thing you pointed out) and made some other vauge excuse for joining the wagon. On the other hand,

while she didn't really talk about it, of COURSE she joined the wagon on me because of the miller claim

; that was the whole point of the wagon on me, that was the event that caused me to be wagoned." (249)

There's a difference between 1. not even mentioning something and 2. giving a passing reference to something. Yos is using the two interchangably which makes him look like he's trying to cover up a mistake instead of just owning up to it. I don't particularily like it.

She "never even mentioned" that I was a openly claimed miller, that statement was true. She made a passing, almost offhand reference to "my claim", but didn't even mention what that claim was or why she thought it was "bad". I think it was deliberate; the whole post looks like pretty much a textbook example of "how to join a easy wagon as scum without going into any specifics you'll have to defend later."

[Yosarian2]

Incog makes a good point abou Izzy. I'm really not getting a good vibe off of her posts.

Perhaps I was a bit presumptuous when I said "if Yosarian2 was town I think he'd know better than this" since, now that I think about it and now that we've gotten answers from him, I do agree that claiming Miller as scum in the manner he did would probably be worse play for him as scum than as town, but I do hold by the belief that if he's telling the truth, his choice and the manner in which he claimed is terrible.

Why?

I think I had to claim miller today. I don't think doing it in the very first post of the game is a good idea, because that seemed like it would prevent or cut off other interesting dicussion from happening and make the whole day a big discussion about me being a lurker; I thought it would be better to wait until some other stuff was happening first before I dropped my bomb, it just seemed like that would work better as far as the town getting information goes first.

[Yosarian2]

I find it really unlikely that there's actually a miller in this game.

Considering how many games i have (and you have) seen lately with a miller, I'm not sure why you would say that, OGML...

[Yosarian2]

I will have a real post later, but seriously, Yosarian2 and Patrick are scum, and there is no miller.

Pfffffft. (hand guesture)

Anyway, (aside from your total lack of a case on me, other then your weak mafia-theory "millers shouldn't do what Yos just did even though I apparently can't explain why not" stuff) I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that Patrick is scum here. His posts look pretty town to me.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, now that the game's over, I can ask this question:

OGML, why is your reaction to a miller claim in this game so different then it was in Mafia 88 viewtopic.php?t=9775&start=1825? You were a pro-town vig in the game; Der Hammer claimed miller day 1, and you never attacked him, never voted him, never questioned him at all, and never used your vig kill on him all game. So why do you have this bizzare "MUST LYNCH ALL CLAIMED MILLERS" and "THERE ARE NO MILLERS" attitude in this game?

[Yosarian2]

I do not like this miller claim one bit. Yos is a skilled enough player to be able to avoid suspicion if he wants to, without needing to claim at this point. It makes no sense to me.

Hmmm, let me test the water and defend Yos and more blending in!
FOS.

Why would you quote a line where Izzy is quite clearly attacking me, and then pretend that she's defending me in that line? Why are you inventing stuff to try to tie me to Izzy, charter?

Usually when I see someone do a misrepresentation of that nature, they're scum with the other person; trying to create ties between their scumbuddy and a townie in the minds of the town, both to hurt the townie if their buddy goes down and to help their buddy if the townie goes down . So, you scum with Izzy?

Not really. Yos claimed scum, still needs to be lynched.

Do you understand that miller is a pro-town role, right?

[Yosarian2]

and I don't get what's holding Ether up either.

Probably because Ether hates being scum and thus tends to be much more quiet/lurker-ish when she's scum.

[Yosarian2]

That wasn't a real attack. She clearly doesn't think it's suspicious because that's all she said on the subject, no following up on it, no vote, nothing. You either believe someone is actually a miller, or you think they're scum lying about it, there's really no middle ground. I saw Dizzy saying he doesn't need to claim miller if he's scum, hence she's saying he's town, aka defending him.

I read that as "He wouldn't claim miller as town, because he would just avoid suspicion and getting cop investigated instead, so he's probably lying."

Either way, it was a weak attack, basically looked to me like she was trying to push my wagon without being on it.

[Yosarian2]

Xdaamno: Patrick had a good point; I still have no idea who you find suspicious.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, sure it has an impact; i was just saying that OGML's rule ("miller MUST claim start of day 1, or NEVER CLAIM AT ALL!!!11!") is foolish, since as far as preventing a wasted cop investigaton goes, it dosn't matter when during day 1 the miller claims.

But in terms of believability, it does matter.

You keep saying that, but you keep not being able to explain why there's anything wrong with me, as a miller, not claiming right at the start of the day.

And in terms of not disrupting all the other ongoing discussion, it matters quite a bit.

...unless you're trying to claim I claimed miller in order to "disrupt other ongoing discussion"? Is that seriously the theory you're going with here, OGML?

Incog, sorry if I misrepresneted you there

Lets translate: "Incog, sorry I mistakenly thought you had taken up a position I could exploit."

Incognito, I'd be interested to hear your opinion about that, since I know you have had a lot of experence with her meta as well.

Lets translate: "Incog, now that we're on the subject, if you would go ahead and take up this position I can exploit, it will bolster my standing quite a bit."

Let's translate. OGML: "Hey, I bet I can be emotionally manipulative and get more people to vote Yos here even though my arguments have no validity."

If I suspect Ether of being scum, then I certanly want to know what other people think about her, because that's a huge source of information for later. And that's especally true of someone like Incognito, because he knows Ether quite well and thus I would expect him to have a tighter read on her.

Note she dosn't vote me specifically for the miller claim,

she dosn't even mention it

You really aren't paying very close attention to what you're doing. Seems like concocting a tractable case against Ether to counter the wagon on you was more important than a little detail like veracity.

...so, now you're going to just repeat things other people have already said?

She did not mention my miller claim. She did not, at any point, say anything like "Because Yos claimed miller..." or anything like that. She made a vauge reference to "Yos's claim being bad", but she never actually mentioned what my claim was or why. THIS IS SCUMMY; it implies, to me, that she dosn't want to make a huge deal about the details of my claim, because she wants to lynch me but knows I'm telling the truth.

When Ether's town, she can usually spot town-Yos a mile away

So, to distill your whole argument here, Ether doesn't think you are town, and therefore she is not town... hey, I'm pretty sure thats a textbook definition of Oh My God You Suck (for voting me).

Hey, I'm pretty sure you're completly wrong.

If Ether, as town, has correctly and confidently read me, as town, in the last several games we've played together when we were both town, the fact that she isn't doing so now is unusual, and perhaps a red flag.

What do you think, Incog?

Third time in one post you're appealing to Incog's authority on the matter of Ether. I'm gonna need to keep reading to see if he took the bait on this one, or if he realized that Yos was trying to play him.

Again, I've got good reason for asking Incog about Ether here, and I'm rather confused why you don't understand that.

Xdaamno: 35-40% or so. A little more likely then random to be scum, based on some early game vibes; nothing solid.

Suppose you are a not a miller. How would Xdaamno claiming miller at this point affect your opinion of his likelihood of being scum? Might you, perhaps, "hate the claim?" Because your description of why you are suspicious of X is remarkably similar to what Ether wrote about you, plus the "I hate the claim" which you blatantly ignored in writing up a case against her.

Oh, a milller claim never HELPS, nor would I expect it to. Which is clearly not the same as what Ether did.

Why are you trying so hard to defend Ether here, OGML?

(shrug) Well, we're only 10 pages into day 1

Somebody needs to make a name for the scumtell of "Appealing to Page Number"

...

Someone needs to make a scumtell out of "quoting shit completly out of context."

Oh wait, that already IS a scumtell. Right.

Still, the tone of your posts, the agressivness, the...well, the taking advantage of a sudden oppertunity, I suppose, are about what I would normally expect from you as scum.

You mean the sudden opportunity of your random ass miller claim in the midst of other discussions well into day one? Why is my aggressive reaction to it more telling than camn or charter, who don't even seem to be making a blip on your scumdar? Why are all of your arguments so far against both me and Ether based 99% on meta, and your argument against X is purely gut?

Because it is. My suspicions of you and Ether are based on meta, my suspicions of Xdaamno are based partly on gut and partly on the way he's avoided making any negitive comments on anyone all game, and my suspicions of Dizzy are based mostly on the tone of her posts and on some minor scumtells. I don't expect to be right about all of those suspicions, that's not how it works, but I've got good reasons for all of them.

Yos: Did you get a chance to explore any of the games I linked where I'm scum on the forum? Did they give you any new impression of how I play as scum?

Yeah, I read through them. Nothing really conclusive; you generally weren't bandwagon leaders in them, for the most part, but nothing like this kind of situation really came up.

OGML in Post 177: Am I correct in saying that you thought of this because camn's post pertained to scum dropping the atom bomb-thingies? I can agree here.

No, that had very little to do with it. Though it was certainly a brazen thing for Yos to quote while claiming miller.

Well, yeah. What the hell, right?

Translation to reality: Yos analyzes the two main issues going on in thread at the point, decides neither argument is convincing and explains that pretty clearly, so Yos scumhunts elsewhere.

Voting X based on a gut read of one single post is a far cry from scumhunting.

...are you for real? On page 2 of the game, you expect me to have a stronger case then that? Most of the people in the game had only made one post so far, and of those who had been more active, none of them really looked especally scummy to me at the time, as I explained in that post.

Well, yeah. I still don't really get how anyone would assume I would make a whole big post with analysis and stuff and then end it with a random vote...

Perhaps it was assumed to be random because you gave no real indication it was otherwise?

(shrug) Whatever.

Anyway, reading the first 2 pages of the game, Xdaamno's single post *was* scummier then the net contrabutions of any other single player. Do you disagree?

Yes.

Why?

Right, right, jokes are scummy, I forgot.

In the joking post you misquoted just above, I made a joke about how I was going to vote for Patrick except I couldn't because he ozzed pro-town-ness. I then had to actually explain that, yes, this was a joke, based on the fact Patrick always looks pro-town to me. Now you're attacking me for having to explain my joke? Sheesh.

By the way, "my gut usually gives me a pro-town read on Patrick" does NOT mean "I won't be able to figure out Patrick's alignment or get a real read on him", by ANY streach of the imagination.

But the joke WAS made in lieu of making any statement one way or the other about Patrick's alignment at that time, so it did serve the function of letting you continue to ignore him.

Most people hadn't posted anything about Patrick at all. I mentioned that his posts seemed generally pro-town, and jokingly mentioned that Patrick usually does look pro-town. How can you say that *I* was ignoring Patrick?

Besides, Patrick *is* looking pro-town in his posts so far; any case against me where you attack me by trying to link me to him is bupkis unless you can actually make a case against him.

Complete and total lie, since I actually said that they both looked town, which is the exact opposite of what you're claiming I did. We've moved waaayy beyond simple misrepresentation here...

You said they were both pro-town but at the same time asked pointed questions that seemed to deepen the argument going on while you sat back and observed.

Soooo...asking "pointed questions" is a scum tell now?

Lol. Mock me if you want, but if you have an actual problem with my post, you're going to have to say what part of it you disagree with.

OK. Why was it that up that point, your vote had not moved from Xdaamno?

Because, up until the point when you and Ether voted me, Xdaamno seemed the scummiest person in the game. He's still on the list, mind you.

Anyway, (aside from your total lack of a case on me, other then your weak mafia-theory "millers shouldn't do what Yos just did even though I apparently can't explain why not" stuff) I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that Patrick is scum here. His posts look pretty town to me.

Again, I'm finding that ever since it was brought up and Ether said it was too obvious, Yos2 and Patrick have become even more blatant.

Dude, this is perhaps the dumbest argumet you have. "Yos thinks patrick is probably town, so they MUST be scum together!"

I find it really unlikely that there's actually a miller in this game.

Considering how many games i have (and you have) seen lately with a miller, I'm not sure why you would say that, OGML...

Anyway, now that the game's over, I can ask this question:

OGML, why is your reaction to a miller claim in this game so different then it was in Mafia 88 viewtopic.php?t=9775&start=1825? You were a pro-town vig in the game; Der Hammer claimed miller day 1, and you never attacked him, never voted him, never questioned him at all, and never used your vig kill on him all game. So why do you have this bizzare "MUST LYNCH ALL CLAIMED MILLERS" and "THERE ARE NO MILLERS" attitude in this game?

You are hiding behind the existence of a miller in another game now, and an apparent swing in the sitewide meta towards putting more millers in games. I believed the miller claim precisely because I

was

the vig. I think the presence of a vig made the claim more likely to be true. He also claimed under duress, and I don't think a day one miller claim under duress is a likely scum move. Much more likely would be say, claiming doctor, because then you either get cced and out the doctor, or coast on a doctor claim. Your claim is NOTHING like the claim in 88, and trying to equate the two is disingenuous.

I'm not trying to "hide" behind anything. I'm asking you a question. Millers are bloody everywhere in the forum now. The right play for a miller seems to be to claim day 1; it was true in mafia 88, and it is true here. And your comment about "duress" is backwards; the best time for a miller to claim miller is when he is *NOT* under suspicion, because that's far more likely to be a desperate scum gambit.

So, why are you so focused on lynching me for acting in what clearly seems to be a pro-town way? And why are you so convinced that there can't be a miller in this game, when, well when there is, and when miller is a role that seems incredibly common these days anyway? Hell, I wouldn't claim miller as scum just because I'd probably get counterclaimed by a real miller, they're in so many games these days.

Your actions this game do not make any sense, OGML, at alll; I can't imagine why a pro-town OGML would act the way you have, and in fact I have seen a pro-town OGML act in a very different way then you have.

Let's see...he has a whole bunch of random quotes where he tries to lynch all kinds of players together because they're either attacking each other, or not attacking each other, or talking about each other, or because I responded to something Patrick says, or whatever...more paranoid BS. He basically just quotes any post made by anyone on his "suspect list" that either responds to, or references, or attacks, or defends, or mentions, or thinks about anyone else on his "suspect list", and tries to claim that it's all proof that everyone on that list is connected. Such BS...

[Yosarian2]

A look at Ether's posting history and her absense from scum chat, plus the fact that her last post in this thread was this:

I've slipped behind, and I've only skimmed the last few pages. I'm a bit preoccupied right now--don't expect a proper post until Friday evening at the earliest.

... would incdicate that Yos's meta-analysis is flawed anyway. Ether appears to be MIA at the moment.

When Ether wants to lurk in one game, she tends to lurk everywhere on the site in order to facilitate that.

[Yosarian2]

I've already mentioned that I don't think a miller is likely to exist in this game.

You keep SAYING that, but you sure as hell haven't given any reason for it.

Let me put it this way, since you are acting like you're so sure for no apparent reason when you're 100% wrong; if there IS a miller in the game, does that mean town should lynch you tommorow?

I've also given reasons for disbelieving Yos' claim in particular.

No, no you really haven't. Not at all. Not even a little bit.

[Yosarian2]

Before I get into anything else, does anyone here other than Yosarian or Patrick want to venture a guess as to why the two of them continuing to hammer at wanting a reason for me not believing a miller IN THIS SETUP is terribly scummy?

Well, if you're claiming you have some kind of role info that implies there is not a miller, either you're trying and failing at outguessing the mod, or you're lying scum.

I don't think we need you to claim today, since the first case is very possible and you may just be falling victim to some kind of mod-WIFOM, but when you do claim you'd better have a damn good explanation for this.

Also,

Let me put it this way, ... if there IS a miller in the game, does that mean town should lynch you tommorow?

Interesting you didn't answer this question.

[Yosarian2]

In my experience. . scum don't drop atom bombs on people day 1.

Oh, speaking of which, I'm a miller.

It sounds like TownYos was either waiting for an opportunity, or forgot to say this earlier. Which is it, Yos, if the question is fair?

I was planning to claim miller at some point during day 1, like I said. I didn't really want to do it right at the start of day 1, because I had wanted to let some other conversations start up first, but I didn't want to wait too long either, wanted to make sure the town had enough time to dicuss my claim and act in a rational way about it. (shrug) Seems like the timing worked out pretty well; town had time to talk and think about my claim, got lots of interesting reactions, and it didn't stifle other lines of discussion.

So, Xdaamno, here's the key question for you to answer. If you had to pick someone to lynch, right now, who would it be? The way you haven't really attacked or voted anyone all day is really the main reason I'm suspecting you at this point.

[Yosarian2]

Edit: Well, you're voting Patrick, but apparently you don't think he's scummy. So who do you think IS?

[Yosarian2]

Hmm, looks like you're trying to divert my attention. That's a non-sequitur (although I will answer it.)

No; I've been making clear for a while that the fact you haven't attacked anyone at all yet, the fact that while you've been posting and making comments, you haven't done any real scumhunting yet, is part of the reason I find you suspicious.

Patrick or OGML. Both seem to be trying to appear town, and OGML has been completely serious all game IGMEOYT.

How are they "trying to appear town"? Can you be a little more specific?

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, Ether's last post is giving me a better vibe; the whole thing feels honest to me.

Ether: Are you scum?

[Yosarian2]

Let's translate. OGML: "Hey, I bet I can be emotionally manipulative and get more people to vote Yos here even though my arguments have no validity."

How was OGML being emotionally manipulative?

Because it wasn't a logical argument he was making, it was one just designed to get an emotional reaction out of the people reading. There was nothing wrong with me asking incog what he thought about Ether, there is certanly no reason I wouldn't make those posts as town, and he didn't give a reason; he just tried to discribe my post in such a way as to make people paranoid about my motives.

Or maybe you're scum and that's why she can't get a town read?

Look, when I'm trying to figure out if someone is scum or not, I'm going to use all the facts avalable to me, including my own knowlege of my own role. That's clearly not an argument that's going to convince people who suspect me, nor should it; it was a part of my thought process, though.

What do you think of her 387 re: this point of yours?

Well, like I already said:

Anyway, Ether's last post is giving me a better vibe; the whole thing feels honest to me.

Especally the part when she admitted she lurked in order to avoid dealing with the attack on her; I was pretty sure that was what she was doing, and the fact she admitted it actually makes me feel a little better about her.

[Yosarian2]

Appeal to Authority is, in fact, a scum tell and a logical point in my argument.

A. It's not, if there is reason to think athority actually is a reliable source

and, more importantly

B. I never did anything even remotly RESEMBLING an appeal to athority. You are again just completly making stuff up here. I *ASKED* Incognito about Ether, because I wanted to see his reaction, because I thought Ether was scum. If you think someone is scum, you want to get as many other people to talk about them as possible, to say what they think about that person, so if you are right, then when they do flip scum, you have more information about who their scum partner is.

Dude, every single one of your posts has just been trying to find some new excuse to attack me. Most of them don't even make sense, like this one dosn't. Now, if I had said "Drr, Incog is going after Ether, I'm going to follow him blindly" then that might make sense, but I *NEVER* said *ANYTHING* that you anyone could even imagine looked like that. And I also can't imagine how me demanding multiple times to know what he thinks about Ether could be considered "buddying up"; that comment that "he can read Ether" wasn't an "appeal to athority", it was an obvious but unavoidable trap that would put him in a very tricky position if he was scum with Ether. And I'm sure you know that's what I was doing; it certanly wasn't subtle.

[Yosarian2]

Now, assuming you think that this is legitimate, it appears that you were making this case (something along the lines of"Ether should know I'm town because we have a long history of us being town and her pointing out that I'm town when we're both town") off of a large number of games. Ether only points to a single game from where you would have gotten this idea. Don't you think that's a bit incongruous?

First of all, that's not what she said

Yosarian's claim still bugs me. I don't think OGML's insinuations are necessarily valid, but I won't get into that. What I

like

about his play is self-defense and Caffhate, and I do not have the confident meta on him he attributed to me. (Recently, I said I did, but I had a good taste in my mouth from catching a specific townish slip in 728. See 720 for details.) I'll

unvote

, which is shorthand for meh I'll put this off.

In other words, she specifically stated that she SAID she had a confident meta about me when I'm town; she didn't say that in 728, GC, she said that outside of a mafia game. It may have been because of that game, I don't know.

Also, I'm certanly not just basing this on one game; I'm basing this off my experence in several games with Ether.

In any case, I'm not sure why you're making such a big deal about this; it was never a major part of my case against her, nor one I really expected anyone to take too seriously, just one reason amoung many why her play here felt different to me then her play in the several games I've seen her as pro-town recently.

[Yosarian2]

Not a major part of your case? Bullshit.

You're just playing it down now because I pointed out what a ridiculous position it was to suspect someone because they don't think you're obvtown.

Dude, I don't really care what you think is a "ridiculous position" or whatever, especally considering your ridiculous case on me. If I see someone act in a certain way over and over again when they are town, and then I see them act in a radically different way in one game, it's going to make me suspicious. Getting a real meta on Ether isn't easy since she hasn't actually been scum in ages, but that bandawgony vote for me did not look anything like what I would normally expect from town Ether, for a number of reasons.

[Yosarian2]

(sigh) I hate to be in the position where I'm forced to defend my case on someone just at the point when I've started to lose confidence in it.

Anyway:

GC: I suppose I should try to be clear here; I've been playing a bit fast and loose this game ever since my miller claim, and so I probably haven't been as careful about my words as I should. The fact she "can usually read me better then this" was one of the things that made her post on me seem so off, that made me personally suspicious of her, and I did mention that a couple of times. That being said, I didn't really expect that to convince many other people (or at least not until after I was dead and showed up as town; at the point when I attacked Ether, I was kind of expecting to be lynched at any minute, considering I had like 4 votes on me appear almost instantly after I claimed), for the reason you gave; even if someone accepts my reasoning, they don't know my alignment either. So I really do think that it was a legitimate reason for me personally to suspect her; however, at the same time, it wasn't really an argument I'd expect other people to take too seriously, and I would have been surprised if anyone quoted that specific part of my argument, agreed with it, and voted Ether because of it.

[Yosarian2]

Can you reiterate the other points in your case on her?

No, I'd rather not. If you have any questions about why I suspected her, I'll answer them, but I'm not going to repeat an entire case I am no longer confident in.

In fact,

unvote:Ether

[Yosarian2]

I meant what were you trying to infer from the answers you would be given, or what was your goal in asking the question, if anything.

I would assume that the goal of it was to try to get more people interested in lynching me, which has basically been the goal of every single one of his posts since my miller claim.

And, actually, now that he's implied he's drawn some kind of role based conclusion that made him (incorrectly) think that there probably isn't a miller in this game, I'm a lot less suspicious of him. The stuff that's really seemed scummy to me earlier, the extremely aggressive behavior towards me, the way he wasmisrepresnting everything I say , the tunnel vision on me, the weak arguments he keeps inventing against me, the difference from how he played last time he saw a miller, and the complete and undivided attention on trying to lynch me while ignoring everything else; I was thinking that those were scum tells, but they also make perfect sense if he's town who thinks he has some reason to not believe me. All of his behavior does, really.

So, let's let this go for now. I can think of any number of possible reasons he may have come to that false conclusion, depending on how far he was willing to go to try and outguess the mod based on limited information, and I don't think we need him to roleclaim today (nor do we need to speculate about what those reasons might be, please). We'll sort this out later, when we have more information about the setup; for now, I don't see any reason for people to keep badgering him for role info.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, I can certanly get behind an Xdaamno wagon.

(checks votecount) Um...I think there are 3 votes on him now, Camn, GC, and Korts.

Vote:Xdaamnno

[Yosarian2]

Yos' slimy addition to the bandwagon here is especially concerning.

So...me joining a wagon on someone who's been high on my suspect list all day, who I've been strongly suspicious of basically since the very beginning of the game, and who has still constantly refused to do any actual scumhunting, is "slimy"?

Right, right; OGML dosn't actually care about logic this game, he's just trying to get me lynched in every single post of his no matter what I do or don't do or what else happens in the game, I keep forgetting that.

Xdaamno: your self vote is not going to help you here; in fact, the odds of me unvoting you while you are still voting for yourself are pretty much nil. You getting angry at GC isn't really going to help you either. Now, that full analysis post you are promising, with a discription of who you are suspicious of and why, and who you think is town and why, would be a big help. Or, if you can, a calm, rational defense against the case GC made agaisnt you would probably help as well; preferably by actually explaining why the points against you are wrong, instead of just quoting everything he said and blandly claiming that they're all lies.

But first we need to see that analysis, or that scumhunting you promised earlier; need to hear more about what you think about other people in the game.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah. Your so-called suspicions of Xdaamno have never been anything more than gut

That is a completly false statement. But thanks for playing.

[Yosarian2]

508- Ha, if you'd said, well, Xdaamo is a better lynch than me (arguable because I doubt Xdaamo can claim a role worse than miller) I'd have bought it, but this just makes me more suspicious of Yos.

...what?

This argument didn't make any sense when OGML made it, and it makes a hell of a lot less sense now that you're echoing it. I've been attacking Xdaamno all game, for good reason, and people are acting all surprised that I was willing to join a wagon on him? Are people really still under the illusion that there's something wrong with wagoning with good reason on day 1?

You know, I'm starting to see why everyone thinks Charter is scum. He's being incredibly oppertunistic here, as he has been for much of the game.

I do have to laugh at camn saying "charter looks less scummy then usual, so he's probably scum."

[Yosarian2]

Having said that, I should note that I probably wouldn't be completely averse to his lynch if the consensus believes he should be today's lynch. Right now, Korts is looking much scummier to me though.

FOS. Seems like you're trying to encourage Xdaamos lynch without getting your hands dirty.

Errrr... my intention there should be clear: I believe a Korts-lynch is more likely to hit scum than an Xdaamno-lynch, but I

believed

that Xdaamno had been behaving in such a way that I could have easily seen myself lending my vote to his wagon if people preferred his lynch instead. Given the new information that I received from Xdaamno's self-vote though, I've obviously revised this position and wouldn't support his lynch today at all, but I can't see how you could interpret that as me lending support to his lynch without getting my hands dirty -- I'd have placed my vote on his wagon, and I've been busy questioning him about a lot of his actions all day, which means that if he were lynched and did happen to flip town, I'd be at blame just like anyone else who might have ended up on his wagon.

Further, the only way I could possibly get "my hands dirty" is if Xdaamno is indeed town. Do you

know

him to be town here?

This is bullshit. "Getting your hands dirty" means actually taking part in the lynch. It has no bearing on Xdaamo's alignment, because regardless of his alignment, you as scum, would not want to be a part of his lynch if you can avoid it.

Bad argument; trying to "get Xdaamno lynched without getting his hands dirty" only makes sense if you think (or know) that Xdaamno is town. If Xdaamno was scum with Incognito, like you're suggesting here, then Incog would want to either protect him or be very visably seen to be on his lynch, which is the exact opposite of what you were accusing him of.

Now, if your defense had been something like "Yes; your post makes me suspect that you are scum attacking town, and i thought xdaamno was town anyway" or whatever, I would have been fine with it, but this response just feels dishonest to me.

"When" Xdaamno flips town? Don't you mean "if"? You're making it seem like it was just the self-vote that made me think he was more likely to be town. I had also already mentioned that I thought his play was similar to one of the past town games I looked into.

No, I meant exactly what I said, the theory only works with you scum profiting from an Xdaamo town lynch.

Wait...didn't you just say that "Incog wouldn't want to get his hands dirty" no matter if Xdaamno is town or scum?

Also, did you even look at those previous self-voting games I've linked to? I've taken this exact same position in multiple games where I've been town and have found it to be a fairly successful town-tell. I don't think his frustration looks manufactured, I do think his frustration looks genuine and townish, and so I don't want to lynch him today. Do you think my reasoning for thinking him town looks contrived?

No, I'm not going to read a bunch of games that have no bearing on this one (especially when you can pick and choose them to prove whatever point you wish). I think you were hedging your bets that he'd get lynched and tried to earn some town points from it.

I don't believe that you actually think that was what Incog was trying to do here.

Your sudden suspicion of Incognito seems very contrived; even a cursory look at the links he gave would show that he's given people town cred for self-voting in the past. I could understand disagreement, but the fos seems very forced.

Why on earth would I pick now to all of a sudden be suspicious of someone unless I actually thought they did something suspicious? Why would I pick Incog who's so "obvtown" to all you sheep?

Because he's attacking you, and you want to undermine him, obviously. It's called OMGUS.

Also, Incog is clearly obvtown, and you are clearly scum.

Unvote:xdaamno

,

Vote:Charter

Only thing that bothers me about changing my vote here is that my pressure vote on Xdaamno still hasn't accomplished his purpose; he STILL hasn't done any real scumhunting. I am going to be very, very unhappy with Xdaamno if the day ends and he still hasn't done anything at all yet. (And no, a self vote does not count. :angry face:)

[Yosarian2]

unvote

Huh.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, it's a completly confirmable role, and it's one i've never seen a scum have before.

[Yosarian2]

I mean really... what kind of nutso setup are we looking at if both those claims are true?

Is it likely?
Is it possible?
Does it make sense?
Are these even "pro-town" roles, in that they help us?
Maybe we should lynch them all?

(these are honest questions.. some of you have seen a lot of setups..wtf?)

Eh. It's quite possible. The whole "mason recruiter" thing charter is claiming isn't that unusual of a role.

Now, if he can't confirm it tommorow, then we'll want to re-consider, but I think lynching him today is not necessary. Also, if he wanted to just make up a claim in order to not get lynched, this is not one I would have expected.

As for your forth question...huh? The role Charter claimed role isn't a very powerful role, but it's stronger then a townie, in that it can at least confirm itself. Whereas a claimed miller is weaker then a townie, but not that much so; a cop can't investigate everyone in the game anyway, if we're lucky a cop might investigate 3 or so people out of 11.

[Yosarian2]

charter resorts to ad hom and straw man because he's out of options.

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU WERE IN A MINI WITH A CULT?

Bolded for farsighted folks.

Um...not to talk about ongoing games, but I'm in one right now, charter. Bad argument.

[Yosarian2]

That being said, I don't really think it's that likely charter is cult.

[Yosarian2]

Masons are on the same team. It is what makes them masons. I've never heard of it as otherwise unless if "unconfirmed masons" is some hip role that I'm out of the loop about.

Neighbors just talk to one another. No alignment shift. No confirmation. The fact that charter is a "mason" whose role is actually a neighbor sounds like baloney.

The whole idea that "masons are confirmed, so we'll come up with "neighbors"" to mean "unconfirmed masons" is a newfangled idea that most mods don't follow. Hint: Look up "scum mason" in the mafia wiki. Alternatly, look up the many MD topics dicussing this. "Mason" does not mean "100% confirmed town" in the minds of many mods, probably in the mind of most mods.

[Yosarian2]

In fact, charter not announcing who exactly he's targeting would be stellar, so his new mason buddy doesn't just get a bullseye drawn on their forehead.

Huh? Why would the scum be especally worried about killing someone just because they get a "can night talk with charter" ability that otherwise changes nothing? We already know that Charter's mason recruit isn't nightkillable.

[Yosarian2]

We already know that Charter's mason recruit isn't nightkillable.

What?

Lol...that's what I get trying to get off a quick post at 5:30 AM before I have to go to work.

That should have read "Isn't confirmed"

[Yosarian2]

I'd like to hear Yos' opinion on OGML's proposal, ftr.

Yos, you missed this a page back.

Well, I kind of though I answered it. His proposal that we speedlynch the guy who just claimed an easily confirmable role on day 1? I'm against it, obviously. Or were you talking about something else?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah...deadline is in...(looks), uh, 2 days? Oh, wow, it's on my birthday, hah.

Vote:dizzyizzy

Let's try to start moving towards some kind of logical lynch.

[Yosarian2]

I really want to know why you think Incog is scum, charter. He looks pretty town to me.

[Yosarian2]

We shouldn't lynch Korts. There's an easy way to tell if he's telling the truth. Still want dizzy or Yos or Incog lynch.

How exactly do we confirm Korts?

Well, not "confirm" quite, but if a cop claims at some point in the future, we just tell Korts "you protect the cop from now on; if the cop dies and you're still alive, we lynch you." Then either A. the scum avoid killing the cop, or B. Korts dies protecting the cop, or C. The cop dies but we find out Korts was lying scum.

Again, we can't actually "confirm" him, but bodyguard is a very useful role, and one that it's unlikely a scum will fake. Also, I tend to buy it from a setup balance standpont; we know there's probably a cop because I'm a miller, and while cop+doc is overpowered, cop+bodyguard is kind of ok.

[Yosarian2]

What would you say if we have a miller + tracker? How much sense would that make?

Well, there's always the chance the mod was just screwing with me and there's not actually a cop, like how some mods like putting a nurse into a setup without a doc, and if that's the which case then I'm a giant red herring.

To answer your question, though, I tend to doubt there are two info roles and a bodyguard. Also, my role specifically said I look guilty to cop investigations, not to tracker roles or any other info role.

[Yosarian2]

Thunderstorms in my area keep cutting off my 'net, so I can't really say much at this time.

I, too, would like to know how we can easily see if Korts is telling the truth like charter mentioned.

Yosarian2, why would a scum be unlikely to fake the role of Bodyguard?

Well, for the reasons I just gave; if a cop claims (and cops eventually do tend to claim), then the scum is in a bad position; if they kill the cop, and the claimed bodyguard is still alive, then the claimed bodyguard probably gets lynched (since a real bodyguard should always protect the cop); on the other hand, if the scum just let the claimed cop live, then that generally leads to an easy town win.

[Yosarian2]

I'd rather lynch Korts, but charter's a viable second choice. I am uncomfortable with the notion that they should suddenly be let off because of unconfirmable power role claims, especially since I seem to suddenly be the default lynch and I'm just a vanilla townie.

How is charter unconfirmable?

Also, I may have missed it before....are you just claiming vanilla now, or did you claim vanilla before? Either way, why did you claim if you are vanilla?

[Yosarian2]

Also, I'd still rather lynch Izzy then xdaamno. I think she's more likely scum at this point.

[Yosarian2]

Vote Yosarian2

Claimed scum yesterday. A gunsmith and a tracker? Looks like he hedged his bets wrong.

As I said yesterday, after it became obvious what OGML was hinting at, I am probably a red herring designed to mess with the town, just like when a mod puts a nurse into a setup without a doctor.

So, what; your theory is that I claimed miller without knowing if there was a cop, in a game with a creative mod who's not especally likely to put a generic cop into every single game?

Anyway, charter continues to attack me, not surprising. I'm a little disturbed by Xdaamno jumping on the wagon just based on mod-WIFOM, though, when I wasn't getting the vibe at all yesterday that he suspected me or had any problem with my claim. Reads more like "convinent scum excuse" then anything else to me.

Vote: Xdaammno

[Yosarian2]

Hmmkay. Thanks for the links, Incog. Scanning the OP of Vollville and this post of AA (no passive roles even; Godmother was NK- and inv-immune though) I don't see any precedence of vollkan using red herrings.

vote: Yosarian2

So...you see two games by a mod, and expect to be able to predict what roles he will and won't use just by looking at those to games? And you would then rather use that incredibly limited amount of information to try and outguess the mod rather then actually, like, do any real scumhunting?

[Yosarian2]

I'm not so sure about an Ether/Yos2 connection; if Ether is scum, her vote on Yos2 seems like it could be pretty equally opportunism or a nervous attempt to bus him. Having said that, I'm not wild about Yosarian's first post today which ignores the meta-style case made against Ether (when he's previously said that Incognito is a good authority on Ether), ignores Incognito's attack on his charter vote yesterday, and places a vote on Xdaamno for jumping on an easy wagon. There's nothing illogical about what he said, but I just feel like he's capable of better at this point. Yos2, what's your view on the case against Ether?

If it wasn't clear, Patrick I just had time to make a quick post in all my games when I got home late last night, I certanly didn't have time to make a detailed response to anything other then a quick response to the attack against me.

Anyway, I tend to agree with Incognito that Ether has not been acting like town-Ether this game; I had the vibe for much of day 1, and while her one post when she came back looked pro-town to me, her play so far today has not. She is verry likely scum. I'm not sure why he changed his mind, though; Incog, could you explain why yesterday you thought Ether's play looked pro-town?

As for Xdaamno; I'm not sure what you mean by "he's capable of better at this point"; I'm pretty sure Xdaamno is scum here, and there's nothing "better" then that. He was attacked yesterday for not voting, and it looks like he was told by his scumbuddies last night "Hey, make sure you vote someone today", and so he did. His vote for me today seems complety inconsitant with his attitude towards me yesterday, and it just really feels like a scum move.

With all the scum still alive and two dead town investigative roles, I certanly would expect the scum to be going for the easy lynch today, since if town mislynches today then town would be at 4 town vs. 3 scum tommorow with very little power left, at which point town is pretty close to screwed. And that easy lynch would clearly be me here, since I got set up by the mod with an improbable role.

Yos2's claim looks worse than it did yesterday; maybe he is a red herring miller, but they must be pretty rare. I don't think I've ever even seen one.

Meh. Well, now you have. Anyway, roles like that in general (roles with an ability that never will get used to throw people off) aren't that uncommon; godfathers who are told they are kill immune but they're the only scumgroup and there's no vig, ect.

You're right that "red herring millers" specifially aren't common, though; if it had occured to me that I might be a miller with no cop in the game, I might not have claimed. I still think that a miller claiming miller on day 1 is generally the right move, but obviously not if there's not a cop in the game.

[Yosarian2]

Yos2:

Can you respond to this also:

I particularly didn't like

the post

where he placed his vote on charter: to me it looked like he was defending

me

from charter's attack and case and using his defense of me as reason to place his vote down on him where he even concluded that I'm "obvtown and charter is obvscum". I just can't think of a time where I've built a case against someone and placed a vote down on him or her by largely basing my vote on a defense of someone whose alignment I wasn't 100% sure of as town. I have, however, done this as scum.

Do you think the point I've made there is valid? Do you often find yourself voting for another player in defense of another player as town?
A sort of "chainsaw defense" except where in this case the person you were defending is town?

Well, it wasn't a "chainsaw defense", because my main goal wasn't to defend you, it was to find scum. If I see person A making a bad, scummy looking attack on person B, then I often will vote for person A based on that. The fact that I was pretty sure you were town made me more confident about it, but my attack against him had more to do with the craplogic he was using, and with the fact that the words he used made it sound to me like he had more knowlege about Xdaamno's alignment then a townie would.

Of course, we now know I was almost certanly wrong about that since Charter is now basically confirmed, but I still think his "Incognito was trying to lynch Xdaamno without getting his hands dirty" argument did not really make any sense.

[Yosarian2]

By the way, I think this was a major trip up: "I can't passionately defend myself against the middle two points--

I never really took to this game

." I know that she was looking forward to this game to some extent. And I don't think that she's lying about her lack of interest in this game. But the number one reason why she would become disinterested would be because she is scum. After all, she finds scum to be absolutely no fun (middle of post). And she most certainly does not invest much effort while scum (top of post).

(nods) Yeah, I think it's very likely Ether and Xdaamno are 2 of the 3 scum at this point.

I'm still super-happy with a X lynch in the days to come.
I'm warming up to the notion of a Yos lynch.

Eh? Why? Just because I have an improbable role?

[Yosarian2]

You have claimed a role that is convenient for scum to claim, and based on the dead roles and vollkan's previous games it is very unlikely at this point that there would be such a role at all in this game.

The interesting thing about this sentance is, it actually applies more to your roleclaim then to mine.

I'm not as confident about that as I am about Xdaamno and Ether, but think about what we know about the setup. Out of 9 town, we've got
-Gunsmith (who, btw, can confrirm other people as not mafia)
-Tracker
-Mason recruiter (who can confirm himself as town easily)
-claimed bodyguard

And if there's a gunsmith, I strongly suspect there is another pro-town role with a gun; while it's possible, I've never seen a gunsmith in a game when only the scum have guns, that would kind of defeat the purpose of the role. So, assume one more pro-town role, this one with a gun, with a vig being most likely IMHO.

You've now got 4 out of 9 people with town roles; 5 if you're telling the truth. Plus, the gunsmith can confirm other people as town, and the vig can pick off the unconfirmed. Together, it seems that looking at the setup on paper a mass claim day 2 or 3 or whatever would be a very, very powerful tactic for the town, with a very high chance of the town just "solving" the whole game based on role information.

This implies 2 things to me:
1. Some kind of mod mechanic to reduce the effectivness of a mass claim makes perfect sense; so there is every reason to think the mod would include an improbable role in it, something to confuse the town in the event of a mass claim, something to make that a less dominat tactic.

2. A bodyguard, on the other hand, is more difficult to believe. If there's a mass claim, and the bodyguard can keep the gunsmith alive for just one more day and let him confirm one more person as town, it's likely the scum have no chance.

So, if anything, you are the one claiming a role that is convinent for scum to claim (miller is NOT a role that is "convienent" for scum to claim, considering the high odds of any claimed miller being lynched or vigged; bodyguard, on the other hand), and you are the one who has a role that seems unlikely to be in the game based on mod infromation and based on the dead roles. My role, on the other hand, makes perfect sense.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, apart from the fact that I have been voting more could possibly agree with the theory that I am scum (but is not a scumtell in itself), are there any extra reasons why I am more scummy today than yesterday? I'm saying this to make sure people don't trust you solely as an authority figure.

Well, you were pretty scummy yesterday as well, IMHO.

Today, I really think the way you just jumped on my bandwagon based on nothing more you following a confirmed town charter seemed very scummy and oppertunistic. If you are scum, your only priority today would be to secure a mislynch by whatever means necessary; if town mislynches today, town is in deep trouble. Plus, your sudden vote on me seems completly inconsistant with your behavior from yesterday, when you didn't really show any signs of suspecting me at all. You hardly commented on me at all, and when you did, this was the last thing you said about me:

This last paragraph in and of itself just struck me as town. I suppose you were trying to get me to notice it and not forget it? Going down that thought process is something scum do not need to do, and so I think you are town.

So, yesterday you seemed to be ignoring me completly when it looked like I was going to get lynched, trying to get on my good side when it looked like I wasn't and was attacking you; and as soon as it looks like I might be lynchable today, you vote for me with nothing more then an agreement with another player who's confrimed town. It really feels like scum play to me at this point.

[Yosarian2]

Out of 9 town

I like the very direct statement, no ifs or buts, that it is a fact that there are 9 town players. It's not as bad as assuming a certain number of scum, but it's the same kind of slip.

Meh. If there is a vig, then with 2 kills last night implies there's most likely just one scum group, and the setup really only can be balanced like that with a 3 man scumgroup. I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption at all; do you disagree?

I can see your point about the bodyguard from the perspective of a massclaim; that is probably why I'm not a doctor and die with a successful protection. Also, if you assume a role that is a false guilty for the gunsmith, why fail to recognize the equal possibility of a false innocent?

Well, that's possible I guess; I can't think of a game when I've seen a "gunsmith immune mafia member" (although I have often seen SK's that don't have guns), but that dosn't mean it's not possible for this game. I'm not sure how much difference that makes, though; if you're telling the truth, that's still 5 pro-town players with strong claims.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not compeltly convinced you're scum here, and I'm not going to read too much into trying to outguess the mod especally considering my own role. But you need to keep charter, the confirmed innocent, alive tonight; if charter dies and you're still alive, you should be lynched tommorow, no question.

(miller is NOT a role that is "convienent" for scum to claim, considering the high odds of any claimed miller being lynched or vigged; bodyguard, on the other hand)

In addition to the fact that you haven't quite made a single point about why my claim would be convenient for scum, this statement has an inherent flaw; millers are lynched or vigged precisely because they are such a convenient claim.

Well, your claim would be convenient for scum in that it's not actually confirmable, it's not likely to be counterclaimed if you're lying because bodyguards aren't very common, and it's not a role claim the town was likely to lynch on day 1.

As for the miller claim; feh, in a different meta, perhaps. In the current meta, I'm pretty sure the risks of a scum claiming miller are higher then the risks of getting cop investigated, even if there was a cop.

[Yosarian2]

I don't think there's a vig. I think it's a SK because a vig would have shot Yos. However, normally, SK's don't use guns, so it does make the gunsmith role more of a question.

Eh...the whole point of a gunsmith roles is that the mafia has guns, but so do some pro-town people (generally cops, vigs, perhaps PGO's although that dosn't really matter, perhaps some others), so a "gun" result is significantly less useful then a guilty, and may actually out a pro-town power role if the gunsmith isn't careful. I've never seen a gunsmith in a game without a pro-town gun, never. This could be the first, of course.

[Yosarian2]

This seems like the opposite of what you said on day 1 about scum claiming bodyguard. Am I missing something?

Yeah, I know. Claiming bodyguard has advantages and disadvantages. I suppose I'm just less trusting of the claim now that I have a better idea of the setup; plus, I'm a little bothered that he didn't protect OGML, who I thought was pretty obviously a pro-town information role, although his claimed protection of Charter makes sense.

In any case, I don't really want to lynch Korts today; he's about my #3 suspect right now.

On a side note, it might be wise if people who aren't already claimed would stop chiming in now with comments about if they think a vig or a SK is more likely, since that may just help the scum find the vig if there is one.

[Yosarian2]

I'm not really getting much out of the past few posts probably because they've been about set-up spec.

Well, your claim would be convenient for scum in that it's not actually confirmable, it's not likely to be counterclaimed if you're lying because bodyguards aren't very common, and it's not a role claim the town was likely to lynch on day 1.

This was exactly my line of thinking yesterday when I maintained my vote on Korts so it strongly surprised me when you seemed to feel otherwise. I see Patrick touched on this also. Looking back, I see you were mainly thinking of things from a Cop/Miller perspective, but I just find it weird that if you're telling the truth about your role, a player of your caliber wouldn't have considered that perhaps we may be dealing with a screwy type of set-up that simply has no Cop even with the presence of a Miller. Your insistence on there being one yesterday just strikes me as off.

(nods) Yeah, I was thinking in terms of there being a cop since my role specifically made a point of saying I would look guilty to cop investigations. I suppose I should have realized there might not be one, but honestly, it never occured to me.

[Yosarian2]

Yos's scum list:

Xdaamno:
-avoided doing any kind of scumhunting for most of day 1
-I disliked the way he kept his vote on Patrick for so long while never really attacking him
-That whole scummy "I don't like top 3's, if you want to know who I suspect look at my posts" thing, when in his posts he had not suspected anyone at all
-Only changed as a result of pressure
-Started out day 2 with a vote on me that seemed to contradict what he was saying yesterday, with no explination other then a quote from charter

Ether
-Is not following her town meta
-claims to have "lost interest" in the game; Ether scum tell
-Combination of admitted stratagic lurking and general reluctance to scumhunt
-Has done almost nothing today

Xdaamno: What do you think about Ether? I notice you've almost never responded to her or commented on anything she's said all game, you've basically ignored her completly, except when you did your summery of everyone in the whole game, when you said this:

Ether:

Sometimes, I don't like myself very much. I woke up much less enthusiastic about my Yosvote than I was when I placed it, finding myself under suspicion that I...didn't really disagree with, and put off addressing it. (On Thursday, I

was

doing a programming cram, but that's Thursday.) This is a recovery mode post; I won't really feel comfortable until I'm interacting again.

Weak town vibes from the self-deprecation.

What do you think about Ether in general, Xdaamno? Do you still get "town vibes" from her?

[Yosarian2]

Actually

unvote

to prevent a self-hammer. She should still claim though.

Really? Have you ever seen her do that?

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, I would also like to see an Ether claim, and am also willing to join that wagon.

Xdaamno: I would like to see that analysis soon; if you don't give one before Ether gets lynched, and she flips scum, you will look quite bad in my eyes.

[Yosarian2]

Not sure what the second part has to do with first. You're saying he looks more suspicious because he wasn't nightkilled or something?

Yes. That makes sense, doesn't it? If there are two nightkills, I think at least one of them would have been on Yosarian2.

What? That dosn't make any sense at all. The scum would not kill me, because they would have thought they could get me lynched. Neither would a SK. A vig might, if he or she thought I was likely scum, or they might not. How does any of that reflect on my alignment?

[Yosarian2]

If Ether dosn't say something change my mind in the near future, I expect to hammer her. We can take care of her obvious scum budddy Xdaamno tommorow.

[Yosarian2]

If Ether dosn't say something change my mind in the near future, I expect to hammer her. We can take care of her obvious scum budddy Xdaamno tommorow.

Tunnel vision - yes, my play is consistent with scum. That's obvious. But it's also consistent with town. You're interpreting my behaviour as how you'd like to see it, rather than objectively.

I am interpreting your behavior objectivly, Xdaamno. Objectivly, I think your weak scumhunting day 1 was scummy. I think your general contrabutions to this game are not as pro-town as I would expect. I think the whole thing with your vote on Patrick, and how you seemed to go back and fourth on it, were more likely to come from a scum then from a town. I think your sudden vote on me today, despite your thinking I was pro-town yesterday, was scummy, and the way you've just kept your vote on me without explaining it, or defending it, or discussing why you think I'm scum is also more likely to come from a scum then a town. Plus some aspects of your behavior makes me wonder about a possible link with Ether, my other main suspect.

Your defense here looks like you're saying "Oh, but a townie could play the way I'm playing just like a scum could". And that's true; it is possible a pro-town person could play the way you are playing, that is always a possibility. However, it would not be good play for a pro-town person to play that way, and I don't think it's all that likely, either.

In any case, if Ether keep lurking, I'll probably hammer her soon. Don't think that takes you off the hook, though.

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Page 33 Votecount

charter (0/5):
Ether (3/5): Green Crayons, Patrick, Korts
Green Crayons(0/5):
Incognito (0/5):
Korts (0/5):
Patrick (0/5):
skitzer (0/5):
Xdaamno (1/5): Yosarian2
Yosarian2 (2/5): charter, Xdaamno,

Not voting (3/9):

Ether, skitzer, Incognito

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.
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Countdown To Day 2 Deadline

[Yosarian2]

Well, I know Ether has a physcis final tommorow morning she (should be) spending all her time studying for right now, so I'll give her until tommorow night to post. If she hasn't made a defense post, or a claim, or whatever by then, I'll hammer her.

[Yosarian2]

(sigh) I hate to do this without a claim, but we've waited long enough.

Unvote:xdaamno

Vote:Ether

[Yosarian2]

Good game, everyone. I guess this was the wrong game to test the "millers should always claim" theory.

[Yosarian2]

I think the average town would have totally lynched Yos2 for claiming Miller the way he did

Well, I still think that in general, if you're a miller, claiming miller before the end of day 1 is probably a good idea most of the time. Obviously not if there's not a cop though, heh.

I do feel bad that my miller claim ended up outing OGML. I also wish I had gotten a better read on Patrick, although I did warn you guys that I can't read him and he always looks pro-town to me.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, the timing of your claim was really sloppy. I get the feeling you just did it on a whim there. I stand by my statement during the game of (something along the lines of) claim miller in your first post or don't claim at all.

Why? I still don't see how doing it at the start of day 1 is more pro-town then doing it partway through day 1, other then some vauge "because that's how it's done" convention.

If you're going to claim miller you should do so before the END of day 1, certanly, so you don't get cop investigated. And you don't want to do it in response to pressure.

I don't think the START of day 1 is the best time to do it either, though; if you do it right on the start of day 1, then of course you are going to be voted for it, because town has nothing else to go on other then your miller claim. Seems like it's better to do it partway through the day, otherwise the entire day is likely to be wasted on a "what do we do with the miller" conversation.