Mini 771 - Mafia in Ludd: Game Over

[OhGodMyLife]

I know someone in scumchat was complaining about skitzer not confirming holding up the start of a game last night. Perhaps he is the shenanigan starter?

unvote, vote skitzer

I'm assuming vollkan wouldn't have said something like that in scumchat, and I don't see why anyone else would either. If skitzer held off confirming with some ulterior motive, I don't think he'd go round telling people about it. I guess we should hear from him though.

Point A: I don't see why lateness of confirming should have any bearing on in-game alignment when we have no way whatsoever of knowing the reason for someone being late in confirming.
Point B: I was present in scumchat for the discussion of skitzer being a late-confirmer in another game that was starting simultaneously. If anything, I'd take this to mean that there should be absolutely no correlation between his not confirming in

this game

and his alignment in this game, and not the other way around as Izzy seems to be spinning it.

Also, (general question to anyone) how common is it for scum to be able to talk pregame?

In any game where I've ever been scum, been the mod or bothered to read role PMs after the game ended, scum have been able to communicate pre-game. It is certainly the norm.

Incog's post 34 is defending camn almost too blatantly. Must chew this over. But more disconcerting than actually trying to combat Green Crayons' argument is this snippet from the end of the post:

There's something about Korts's 23 that I really dislike. I can't quite put my finger around it otherwise I'd elaborate further, but I'll try and do so if it comes to me.

It seems to me that Incog is trying to undermine a valid point made by Korts in 23 with nothing more than bad vibes.

Meh on Yos' post 39. There's more meat to these first two pages than he's giving the game credit for.

Note that I haven't checked all of your games by far, but going back 9 games, you only voted for the player at the bottom of the list once. Your claim of "at end of list" being a common reason for random votes doesn't seem to be particularly credible so far.

This seems like a horribly concocted way to attack Green Crayons. Also, hey, thats

my

ongoing game you just referenced, and there's a reason why ongoing games should be kept out of the discussion.

Yet you have a stated tendency to always use the same reason for a first vote. Don't you think those two things are contradictory?

Again with the cockamamie semi-attack. I do not see what possible use you could find for this line of questioning.

I was tempted to vote someone who hadn't posted yet, as per my standard vote at that stage, but everyone had posted

Your attention to detail is lacking. This is my first post.

I wanted to vote patrick, but he already is managing to give me pro-town vibes with his magical "I always give Yosarian protown vibes" machine, damn his eyes

I'd love for you to elucidate on this. As of post 45, the only vibe I'm getting from Patrick is that he's been unusually non-interactive.

charter's post 67 is a pretty list, but he doesn't draw any conclusions from it. And post 70 is self-defense meta. It feels like he's skating.

I'm already pretty sure Ether and Green Crayons are town.

@skitzer: Pre-emptive warning, if you serial lurk I will lynch you.

Vote: Patrick

=======================

Page 4 Votecount

camn (2/7): Korts, Green Crayons
charter (0/7):
DizzyIzzyB13 (1/7): Ether,
Ether (0/7):
Green Crayons (2/7): Xdaamno, camn
Incognito (0/7):
Korts (0/7):
OhGodMyLife (0/7):
Patrick (1/7): Incognito
skitzer (0/7):
Xdaamno (1/7): Yosarian2
Yosarian2 (0/7):

Not voting (5/12):

OhGodMyLife, skitzer, DizzyIzzyB13, Patrick, charter

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Countdown To Deadline
============================

[OhGodMyLife]

Re: Korts' post 78 - this explanation is fair, but I think you're spending too much time on your meta fishing trip with GC and I worry that you might be trying to hide behind it.

OGML: For having such a self-described "detailed" first post, why the lack of any (direct) reason given for the Patrick vote?

I thought a reason could be inferred from my post. And I wasn't self-describing my post as detailed, I was pointing out that Yos isn't paying much attention to the game. He claims that he would have voted any player who hadn't yet posted at that point, but that there were not any for him to vote for. I had not yet posted.

This surprises me; last time we played together I remember you using just vibes semi-often to express suspicion of people. Do you feel vibes aren't legitimate (especially this early)? For the record, I can see where he's coming from there; Kort's interpretation didn't seem the most natural to me either and something about the immediate vote seems marginally off.

I do use vibes to make judgments on

players

, as I already have with Ether and GC, and to an extent with you. What I find wrong with what Incognito did is that he's targeting a specific

post

and saying "this gave me the heebie-jeebies," which just feels like a way to lessen the impact said post would have with other players as they read along.

Not sure I get this, as of post 45 I haven't posted at all because I went to bed and now I'm at work. Why did you prefer to vote me over others who've been less "interactive" then me? Reading on I see Ether agreed with this. Strange.

I think that voting you will be more fruitful. Also, you seem to be misrepresenting Ether's position. She said:

I get OGML's Patvote

, but plan to give him some leeway early on--he's worried that he's lost his bearings.

Which is the opposite of agreeing with you, though she does give her own opinion of what the cause may be.

Hi, Brian.

Incog's post 34 is defending camn almost too blatantly.

No.

She defended herself prior to that post. I was giving my interpretation of the events; ya know, sharing my thoughts. It's good to do that sometimes.

Hi, Rex.

Your interpretation of the events had a very strong slant towards camn. And just because she had already defended herself does not mean a post you make in support of her is not also defending her. And now I'm sharing my thoughts. I agree, its good to do.

First, I don't think the point made there by Korts was valid at all -- it seemed pretty obvious to me that camn's first post was a joke so to me the vote lacked a lot of luster. Second, why do you assume that those "bad vibes" only related to what he said about camn? Basically, it's hard for me to articulate in a meaningful way what it is I found wrong about Korts's opening post. The stuff he wrote about Ether just gave me a (deep breath) "I'm poss-scum who doesn't quite know what to say yet so I'll ask a silly question that I probably already know the answer to in an effort to make myself seem active" vibe. That's a mouthful and is largely speculative so I'd rather wait to see more from Korts before acting on it or elaborating on it

Well why didn't you just say so in the first place? As for agreeing with Patrick re: my stance on "vibes," see above.

This is a valid question. For a moment there, I thought the post was gonna conclude with a Korts-vote or even a charter-vote so I was a bit surprised to see a Pat-vote instead.

Sometimes you've got to throw a curveball.

I try not to post unless I have something useful to be doing, because it's actually an effort for me to not look scummy. I get lynched all the time.

Scumhunting would be useful. I know you've got it in you.

Oh, look, charter is hypocritically voting Izzy for something along the lines of active-lurking/not scumhunting. Did you miss my concerns about your last two posts in your rush to jump on that bandwagon?

Unvote, Vote: charter

[OhGodMyLife]

camn, how do you feel about charter now?

[OhGodMyLife]

I'm interested in the fact that while camn claimed to have a predisposition to see anything coming from charter as scummy no matter what, now that he's actually doing something scummy she claims not to see anything wrong with it.

I'm not really interested in the debate going on between Green Crayons and Xdaamno. They both seem town, and this kind of town-town debate threatens to totally muffle anything else for the rest of the day, leaving us with a lot of nothing to work with, and providing a big fat shield for the real scum to hide behind.

[OhGodMyLife]

camn: So, you set up your random vote on the premise that you frequently find charter scummy regardless of circumstances, but now that we've moved on to real play you change this position to one of "I can't read charter ever so don't mind me I'll just ignore him." ...OK. Well that just makes me want to lynch charter even more.

[OhGodMyLife]

I've recently found that focusing on whats going on around my quarry is a more effective way of scumhunting than focusing directly on my quarry.

I'm reading your description of charter's Izzy vote as "charter-esque" to mean matching some kind of

town

meta for charter, especially in light of the fact that you say you can see charter's point. Is this the case? And if so, why the seeming willingness to submit to my call to lynch charter?

With your last post you've given me enough of a reason to re-examine my own opinion of charter though.

[OhGodMyLife]

Oh right. My charter suspicion stemmed primarily from this post, which I brought up with this comment:

charter's post 67 is a pretty list, but he doesn't draw any conclusions from it. And post 70 is self-defense meta. It feels like he's skating.

At that point he was on my radar. He sealed the deal with the timing of his Izzy vote and the flippant brushoff I got here:

Did you miss my concerns about your last two posts in your rush to jump on that bandwagon?

Yes.

The Izzy vote seems like going after an easy target, and he seems to be using his offensive against Izzy as a way to ignore whats going on in the rest of the game, and specifically to dodge the point I raised to begin with. It is also hypocritical, something I brought up when I voted charter in the first place.

So that is why I'm voting charter.

[OhGodMyLife]

What were you expecting me to say in response to that? "Ok"? That's about all I can think to respond with.

I was hoping you'd go back to that nice list you made and actually draw some conclusions based on it. You've still got a big "Information Instead of Analysis" sign hanging around your neck.

From what I gather, the whole reason you're voting me is because I voted for dizzy.

Hey look, charter is setting up a straw man just to knock it down.

What kind of response were you expecting? Me to unvote dizzy just because you vote me? Seems like you're trying to make this seem way more important than it is.

And he thinks he's knocked it down.

[OhGodMyLife]

Unvote, Vote: Patrick

[OhGodMyLife]

*Goes off on a rant about hypocritical bandwagon votes*

You seem to be implying once again that I was only ever voting you for bandwagoning, which is still a strawman.

[OhGodMyLife]

Well that makes things easy.

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian2

I may or may not fully explain myself in regards to Patrick today, but in all likelihood I'll still be gunning for him tomorrow so it can probably wait. Yosarian2 just claimed scum.

[OhGodMyLife]

I think claiming miller day one

in your very first post

is the right move to make as miller. If you don't, you're better off just being pro town and hoping you don't get investigated. You haven't been the latter, and you didn't do the former. You're scum. There's no miller.

[OhGodMyLife]

So, OGML; is this some sort of policy vote, or do you actually think, based on everything you know about me and on everything I've posted in thread so far this game, that I am scum?

This is no policy vote.

[OhGodMyLife]

charter, the hypocritical part of your vote was not that it was a bandwagon vote, it was that your stated reasons were active lurking/not scumhunting, which up to that point described you just as well as they described Izzy.

Also, re: Incog's post 186, I thought I remembered some kind of MD comment from Yos on miller claims, I'm glad someone took the time to dig it out.

Incog, given your particularly juicy piece of information pertaining to Yos2, why do you abstain from actually taking some kind of stance on him?

[OhGodMyLife]

Yosarian2 in Ludd: A One-Act by OhGodMyLife

Yos: Meh, I say. Meh! Also, vote X
Others: Why so Meh? Was your X vote random?
Yos: Random? Why of course not.
Yos: While I'm at it, let me defend my use of the word meh. It was not wishy washy. It just means I am not making any definitive statements about the alignments of any players involved in any debates so far.

Oh, thats what wishy washy is? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Others: So then, what nonrandom reason do you have for voting X?
Yos: Ummm... everyone had posted already, so my standard random vote would not apply. *Cough* Let me just reiterate that I still haven't found anything to comment on in the ongoing debates between other players. But X's only post so far was like totally not townly. Srsly.
Yos: Also, I will now give a reason for why my reads on Patrick can't be trusted and therefore I probably will never meaningfully comment on Patrick's alignment.
Others: Wishy washy. Like, on the fence.
Yos: Not on the fence. But while I'm at it, let me also make excuses for why my reads on charter are probably not going to ever be valid either.
Others: More questions about meh.
Yos: Defend, defend, defend about my mehs.
GC and camn: Have an argument with each other.
Yos: I'll just fan the argument flames from the sidelines.
OGML: Bring up Patrick re: Yos' nonread on him
Yos: I'll just rehash statements about not reading Patrick. And question why anyone would think he is scum
Yos: Ah, the perfect moment to finally make some comment about something going on around me. I'll begin by joining the growing chorus of people who find Green Crayons to be strikingly town. And devilishly handsome. I'll follow that up with a quick buddy up to camn, because you can never have too many friends. Finally I'll throw in some unsolicited support for Ether v. Xdaamno with a boxing metaphor just to make sure that keeps going while I sit over here comfortably on the sidelines. To finish, let me just tell Xdaamno that we most certainly have enough information now to better-than-random vote someone (so you should probably get off Patrick already). Don't mind that my vote hasn't moved since my barely better than random initial vote for you.
...
Yos: I'm a miller!

Thank you, thank you. I'm holding auditions for the part of Yosarian2 starting at the end of the upcoming night phase. I think that Patrick and possibly Incognito have the requisite experience of "being Yos' scumpartner" that I'm looking for in a leading man.

[OhGodMyLife]

Yosarian2 in Ludd: A One-Act by OhGodMyLife

Yos: Meh, I say. Meh! Also, vote X
Others: Why so Meh? Was your X vote random?
Yos: Random? Why of course not.
Yos: While I'm at it, let me defend my use of the word meh. It was not wishy washy. It just means I am not making any definitive statements about the alignments of any players involved in any debates so far.

Oh, thats what wishy washy is? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Others: So then, what nonrandom reason do you have for voting X?
Yos: Ummm... everyone had posted already, so my standard random vote would not apply. *Cough* Let me just reiterate that I still haven't found anything to comment on in the ongoing debates between other players. But X's only post so far was like totally not townly. Srsly.
Yos: Also, I will now give a reason for why my reads on Patrick can't be trusted and therefore I probably will never meaningfully comment on Patrick's alignment.
Others: Wishy washy. Like, on the fence.
Yos: Not on the fence. But while I'm at it, let me also make excuses for why my reads on charter are probably not going to ever be valid either.
Others: More questions about meh.
Yos: Defend, defend, defend about my mehs.
GC and camn: Have an argument with each other.
Yos: I'll just fan the argument flames from the sidelines.
OGML: Bring up Patrick re: Yos' nonread on him
Yos: I'll just rehash statements about not reading Patrick. And question why anyone would think he is scum
Yos: Ah, the perfect moment to finally make some comment about something going on around me. I'll begin by joining the growing chorus of people who find Green Crayons to be strikingly town. And devilishly handsome. I'll follow that up with a quick buddy up to camn, because you can never have too many friends. Finally I'll throw in some unsolicited support for Ether v. Xdaamno with a boxing metaphor just to make sure that keeps going while I sit over here comfortably on the sidelines. To finish, let me just tell Xdaamno that we most certainly have enough information now to better-than-random vote someone (so you should probably get off Patrick already). Don't mind that my vote hasn't moved since my barely better than random initial vote for you.
...
Yos: I'm a miller!

Thank you, thank you. I'm holding auditions for the part of Yosarian2 starting at the end of the upcoming night phase. I think that Patrick and possibly Incognito have the requisite experience of "being Yos' scumpartner" that I'm looking for in a leading man.

[OhGodMyLife]

I see that the site was so moved by my penmanship it found it necessary to hiccup and make it a doublepost.

[OhGodMyLife]

Did anybody read my play? Its actually a PBPA of Yos up to the miller claim, dressed up in AWESOME.

[OhGodMyLife]

OGML's conclusion in 189/190 seems pretty counter-intuitive if he's suggesting what I think he is.

What, you mean suggesting that you're scum with Yosarian?

What exactly doesn't sit well with you about Incognito's stated suspicions. His seem the most well founded out of anything, since he brought in a quote from MD which would seem to indicate that this is, in fact, NOT how Yosarian would play town miller. The only thing that doesn't sit well about Incog for me is the fact that he still hasn't voted Yos.

[OhGodMyLife]

GC (and others), you're WIFOMing yourself by saying that this isn't a move scum-yos would make because of the heat it inevitably draws.

Lets go through possible thought processes for Yosarian2 here for a second.

Yosarian2 as town miller - *follows the MD prescribed Town Miller strategy, approved by Yosarian2, conveniently researched and presented by Incogntio here in the thread*

Yosarian2 as scum - *gets paranoid about how often he draws investigations on a regular basis, combined with what even he could probably tell was sub par play, and a higher than average player caliber surrounding him, decides claiming miller and banking on the WIFOM-o-licious

why would Yosarian2 scum claim miller

reaction to get him out of a lynch.*

Also, I really don't see why everyone is assuming the presence of a vig in the setup, or at the least assuming the vig can't be one of the people who are apparently snookered by the seemingly illogical scum move of claiming miller here.

[OhGodMyLife]

Finally, re: charter's ultra strange defending-Yosarian-by-way-of-attacking-my-vote-but-still-voting-Yos move, see Green Crayons' response for an explanation of why my vote is not in fact a policy vote.

[OhGodMyLife]

Given the obvious disparity between Yos' stated position in MD and his course of action here, Incog seems to have brought forward by far the strongest basis for a vote out of anyone here, and yet he's the one who refrains. I guess I need a refresher course on the old Incognito Meta, but this seems overcautious.

[OhGodMyLife]

@OGML:

Incog-meta 101

- Your game Mini 594 - Satin Doll Showdown. Erg0 claimed Miller when it was blazingly obvious that obvcop scotmany12 had investigated him. Note that I didn't vote Erg0 until we prolonged the day and gained more information from it.

The day's still young here, we're only a week in, and deadlines are set for three weeks. I think we can get plenty more out of this, and I'd like to keep my vote off Yos2 at this point to use for other purposes and to keep the discussion going. If you want to use this as a scum-tell against me, I really don't care.

I'm of the opinion that once a scum is caught, as the case would seem to be with Yosarian2, further discussion on the day will only be fraught with WIFOM. Its everything that happens

before

it becomes clear one of the scum is going down in flames that really matters. I'm also not one to drag out a day just because "there's X days left til deadline, we still have time for more discussion."

But thanks for clearing things up, it helps to know that you're town.

[OhGodMyLife]

Yos - are you basing your entire scum meta of me on our games at Beach Bam?

[OhGodMyLife]

I think we all developed very specific metas after playing 50 or so games with the same five people. Especially playing 50 games of a very specific format which is wholly unlike most forum games. And yes, I think the way I play in person is a lot more fast and loose than the way I play on the forum, so basing your read of me in this game on a meta developed off the forum is not a good method of scumhunting.

Plus, I didn't have this horrible little "best manipulater" paranoia-inducing tag attached to my name back then, so I wasn't anywhere near as likely to draw random cop investigations as I am now.

I can see this argument being made in a game full of inexperienced players, but nobody in this game is a newbie. Did you really think it was likely that you would draw a "random" investigation in this game?

Personally I give all the players here more credit than that.

[OhGodMyLife]

Hi-ho straw man. See the line "combined with what he could probably tell was sub par play, and a higher than average player caliber surrounding him" for reasons why I'm not contradicting myself.

I don't like how you're backing me into this weird corner where I have to provide a self-meta either. The question regarding whether I lead wagons or not when I'm scum is very much loaded to make me look bad no matter what I say.

I haven't been scum very often in forum games, but you and others are perfectly capable of reading the games where I was scum and deciding for yourself.

[OhGodMyLife]

And to answer your final question, at the point when you claimed, you were more likely than a random person to draw a cop investigation

based on your play up to that point

. You also very clearly demonstrate that

you

believe, even apart from your play in the game, that given a random investigation you are a likely target. So a pre-emptive miller claim makes plenty of sense as scum.

[OhGodMyLife]

Oh please, I already demonstrated how your play before your miller claim was scummy in a charming and satirical manner.

I didn't imply your meta was fuzzy, I implied it was invalid. Therefore, if you want a meta based on forum play, you can go find it yourself, rather than asking me to verify whether or not I lead wagons as scum, as I'm leading a wagon against you.

[OhGodMyLife]

Here I'll make it easy for you and any other interested parties. Every completed game where I've been scum.

Newbie 507
Mini 549
Open 76
Mini 633
Open 87

[OhGodMyLife]

I find it really unlikely that there's actually a miller in this game.

[OhGodMyLife]

I will have a real post later, but seriously, Yosarian2 and Patrick are scum, and there is no miller.

[OhGodMyLife]

Family is doing the Passover Seder today, but I'm hoping to be able to sneak away later and post. I have a lot to say.

[OhGodMyLife]

Yosarian2 - Patrick - charter

Wow, could it be I've already caught the whole scum team?

[OhGodMyLife]

Yosarian2 - Patrick - charter

Wow, could it be I've already caught the whole scum team?

EVERYONE, JUST QUIT, PACK IT IN. MOD LOCK THIS GAME. ITS OVER.

The only scum you caught is Yosarian and you didn't do any catching.

Careful, I can smell your fear.

[OhGodMyLife]

That said, if Yos does die at some point and turns town, camn and Ether will have some extra suspicion marks beneath their name.
If Yos does die at some point and turns scum, charter will be accompanied with some new suspicion marks.

This is all well and good, but bear in mind there is now virtually no way that Yos will die unless we lynch him, barring a vig who agrees with me. So your "if Yos dies town" ideas are not going to be useful basically ever, and "if Yos dies scum" is only useful in the reverse, that is if charter dies scum it further implicates Yos.

OGML's conclusion in 189/190 seems pretty counter-intuitive if he's suggesting what I think he is.

What exactly did you think I was suggesting. I already ventured a guess as to what it was, but got no response one way or the other to that.

Oh, sure it has an impact; i was just saying that OGML's rule ("miller MUST claim start of day 1, or NEVER CLAIM AT ALL!!!11!") is foolish, since as far as preventing a wasted cop investigaton goes, it dosn't matter when during day 1 the miller claims.

But in terms of believability, it does matter. And in terms of not disrupting all the other ongoing discussion, it matters quite a bit.

Incog, sorry if I misrepresneted you there

Lets translate: "Incog, sorry I mistakenly thought you had taken up a position I could exploit."

Incognito, I'd be interested to hear your opinion about that, since I know you have had a lot of experence with her meta as well.

Lets translate: "Incog, now that we're on the subject, if you would go ahead and take up this position I can exploit, it will bolster my standing quite a bit."

Note she dosn't vote me specifically for the miller claim,

she dosn't even mention it

You really aren't paying very close attention to what you're doing. Seems like concocting a tractable case against Ether to counter the wagon on you was more important than a little detail like veracity.

When Ether's town, she can usually spot town-Yos a mile away

So, to distill your whole argument here, Ether doesn't think you are town, and therefore she is not town... hey, I'm pretty sure thats a textbook definition of Oh My God You Suck (for voting me).

What do you think, Incog?

Third time in one post you're appealing to Incog's authority on the matter of Ether. I'm gonna need to keep reading to see if he took the bait on this one, or if he realized that Yos was trying to play him.

Xdaamno: 35-40% or so. A little more likely then random to be scum, based on some early game vibes; nothing solid.

Suppose you are a not a miller. How would Xdaamno claiming miller at this point affect your opinion of his likelihood of being scum? Might you, perhaps, "hate the claim?" Because your description of why you are suspicious of X is remarkably similar to what Ether wrote about you, plus the "I hate the claim" which you blatantly ignored in writing up a case against her.

(shrug) Well, we're only 10 pages into day 1

Somebody needs to make a name for the scumtell of "Appealing to Page Number"

Still, the tone of your posts, the agressivness, the...well, the taking advantage of a sudden oppertunity, I suppose, are about what I would normally expect from you as scum.

You mean the sudden opportunity of your random ass miller claim in the midst of other discussions well into day one? Why is my aggressive reaction to it more telling than camn or charter, who don't even seem to be making a blip on your scumdar? Why are all of your arguments so far against both me and Ether based 99% on meta, and your argument against X is purely gut?

Yos: Did you get a chance to explore any of the games I linked where I'm scum on the forum? Did they give you any new impression of how I play as scum?

OGML in Post 177: Am I correct in saying that you thought of this because camn's post pertained to scum dropping the atom bomb-thingies? I can agree here.

No, that had very little to do with it. Though it was certainly a brazen thing for Yos to quote while claiming miller.

Translation to reality: Yos analyzes the two main issues going on in thread at the point, decides neither argument is convincing and explains that pretty clearly, so Yos scumhunts elsewhere.

Voting X based on a gut read of one single post is a far cry from scumhunting.

Well, yeah. I still don't really get how anyone would assume I would make a whole big post with analysis and stuff and then end it with a random vote...

Perhaps it was assumed to be random because you gave no real indication it was otherwise?

Anyway, reading the first 2 pages of the game, Xdaamno's single post *was* scummier then the net contrabutions of any other single player. Do you disagree?

Yes.

Right, right, jokes are scummy, I forgot.

In the joking post you misquoted just above, I made a joke about how I was going to vote for Patrick except I couldn't because he ozzed pro-town-ness. I then had to actually explain that, yes, this was a joke, based on the fact Patrick always looks pro-town to me. Now you're attacking me for having to explain my joke? Sheesh.

By the way, "my gut usually gives me a pro-town read on Patrick" does NOT mean "I won't be able to figure out Patrick's alignment or get a real read on him", by ANY streach of the imagination.

But the joke WAS made in lieu of making any statement one way or the other about Patrick's alignment at that time, so it did serve the function of letting you continue to ignore him.

Let me just stop again here; did you really mean this as a serious attack on me, OGML?

Yes.

Complete and total lie, since I actually said that they both looked town, which is the exact opposite of what you're claiming I did. We've moved waaayy beyond simple misrepresentation here...

You said they were both pro-town but at the same time asked pointed questions that seemed to deepen the argument going on while you sat back and observed.

Lol. Mock me if you want, but if you have an actual problem with my post, you're going to have to say what part of it you disagree with.

OK. Why was it that up that point, your vote had not moved from Xdaamno?

My linking to one town game where I handled a miller claim in a similar manner to here was enough for you to automatically write me off as town? Why?

Not just the link, the way you explained your thought process, and further meditation on the subject. And Yos' unabashed appealing to your authority. You are certainly not scum with him. And he is certainly scum.

Harking back to OGML's 211: I don't think I'm WIFOMing myself. I'm trying to look at the action, determine what I think of it in and of itself (townish), and then look at who is using it (Yos, who had some leaning scum activity prior to the action per 190) and that player's history regarding the action (a 180 spin in the past two months because of "a shift in meta").

You are though. You made a decision that scum-Yos would not take this risk, and now you're going to great lengths to make excuses for everything Yos has done since, like calling the claim "sloppy," instead of "scummy," probably because you've got a confirmation bias based on your opinion that this just isn't a move scum-Yos would make.

On the other hand, I keep coming back to why he'd be doing this as scum: that seems more like horrible play to me. If he did this as scum in the hope that he'd actually come out looking better or at least not worse from it, he'd have to be showing pretty appalling judgement, I think. Anyone can make a bad play, but it doesn't seem likely to me.

Ever since I brought up a Patrick-Yos scumpair and Ether mentioned that she thinks that is too obvious, they have been really really blatant in supporting each other. Coincidence? I think not.

Don't like camn's sudden abandonment of the Yos wagon, nor her immediate switch to pushing the case against Ether. After that move, camn could just has easily have been distancing from Yos are charter. But on of these two (charter, camn) is almost certainly the third member of the scumteam.

I agree with all of Patrick's 260.

Again, you are blinded by your convictions regarding whether or not scum-Yos would pull a move like this, and you are practically ignoring everything thats come from him since. You even made an extremely valid point regarding Yos covering his tracks after screwing up the first round of his Ether offensive, but it hasn't changed your opinion in the slightest.

I also felt like if Yos-scum gets away with this, he could ride it all the way to the end.

Correction - if he gets away with it, he WILL ride it all the way to the end. Which is why he is getting lynched today.

Top three rocks.

Mine =
Ether
skitzer
Xdaamno

You made a very quick turnaround from being willing to lynch Yos to practically parroting his scumlist.

Anyway, (aside from your total lack of a case on me, other then your weak mafia-theory "millers shouldn't do what Yos just did even though I apparently can't explain why not" stuff) I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that Patrick is scum here. His posts look pretty town to me.

Again, I'm finding that ever since it was brought up and Ether said it was too obvious, Yos2 and Patrick have become even more blatant.

I find it really unlikely that there's actually a miller in this game.

Considering how many games i have (and you have) seen lately with a miller, I'm not sure why you would say that, OGML...

Anyway, now that the game's over, I can ask this question:

OGML, why is your reaction to a miller claim in this game so different then it was in Mafia 88 viewtopic.php?t=9775&start=1825? You were a pro-town vig in the game; Der Hammer claimed miller day 1, and you never attacked him, never voted him, never questioned him at all, and never used your vig kill on him all game. So why do you have this bizzare "MUST LYNCH ALL CLAIMED MILLERS" and "THERE ARE NO MILLERS" attitude in this game?

You are hiding behind the existence of a miller in another game now, and an apparent swing in the sitewide meta towards putting more millers in games. I believed the miller claim precisely because I

was

the vig. I think the presence of a vig made the claim more likely to be true. He also claimed under duress, and I don't think a day one miller claim under duress is a likely scum move. Much more likely would be say, claiming doctor, because then you either get cced and out the doctor, or coast on a doctor claim. Your claim is NOTHING like the claim in 88, and trying to equate the two is disingenuous.

I'm also not crazy about the fact that he's once again ignored my question about why he checked me off as town so quickly after I linked to only one previous game where I was town.

If it wasn't clear from the tone and length of my last few posts, I didn't have much time for thread reading and question responding.

Hmmm, let me test the water and defend Yos and more blending in!
FOS.

Gee, thats funny. You blatantly defended Yos shortly after his roleclaim by questioning my motives for voting him, yet at the same time you were voting him. If thats not the recipe for scum distancing, I just don't know what is.

Not really. Yos claimed scum, still needs to be lynched. I still like Dizzy for scum too. I can easily see them as buddies.

I could lynch either Dizzy or Yos. Both look like scum to me.

This post is obvious bet hedging. If DizzyIzzy gets lynched today, fantastic for charter he just scored a mislynch. If Yos2 gets lynched today, sucks that he lost a partner, but at least he's making some inroads on getting Izzy lynched tomorrow for his trouble.

Why would you quote a line where Izzy is quite clearly attacking me, and then pretend that she's defending me in that line? Why are you inventing stuff to try to tie me to Izzy, charter?

Usually when I see someone do a misrepresentation of that nature, they're scum with the other person; trying to create ties between their scumbuddy and a townie in the minds of the town, both to hurt the townie if their buddy goes down and to help their buddy if the townie goes down . So, you scum with Izzy?

Oh my, Yos saw how blatant charter was being in trying to set Izzy up for the mislynch in case he goes down first and worries others will too. Its very clever of him to try and make it go both ways, so no matter who dies first out of the trifecta of charter, Izzy and Yos, they'll still have their Izzy mislynch in the end.

and I don't get what's holding Ether up either.

Probably because Ether hates being scum and thus tends to be much more quiet/lurker-ish when she's scum.

Nice tag team, guys! Further evidence for the hypothesis that town lurking is hugely beneficial to the scum.

Yeah, I call bullshit. You can't be 13 pages in and still not suspect anyone and actually be looking for scum.

I think I will actually

unvote, vote Dizzy

again.

Here is where charter quietly slips off the Yos2 wagon now that it looks like he might be safe for the day. And on top of that, he pulls the same "Appeal to Page Number" crap. (That tell really needs a better name.)

and I don't get what's holding Ether up either.

Probably because Ether hates being scum and thus tends to be much more quiet/lurker-ish when she's scum.

Vote : Ether

a) I would like to see you get in the game more.. as if I am one to talk
b) I saw you trying to buddy up to me first post
c) I figured out your opening gambit. See my previous
d) if Yos is town, he is on to you, if Yos is scum, he is bussing you.

camn, you and charter need stop being equally good candidates for being the third member of the scum team.
a)admitting you are guilty of the same does not excuse you for being guilty of the same
d)setting up an Ether lynch

regardless

of Yos' alignment, thats awesomely scummy. But I especially like the part where you're making contingencies for the possible death of Yos-scum, just like charter.

---

Incog, how do you feel about being the authority Yos is appealing to for his meta-based Ether case? Do you agree that that is what he's doing? Does it change your opinions on anything going on?

[OhGodMyLife]

Now its my turn to get an idea for who's actually reading my posts.

[OhGodMyLife]

Incog, if you feel marathon games are too dissimilar from normal games for good cross analysis, why did you never comment on Yos using a meta of me based on games played at Beach Bam? (If you did comment, kindly point me to where, because I missed it.)

[OhGodMyLife]

I've already mentioned that I don't think a miller is likely to exist in this game. I've also given reasons for disbelieving Yos' claim in particular.

[OhGodMyLife]

I know this is going to be an insane question...........but I ask as a student of the game, sir.

If you are so sure Yos2 is scum... why go after him now, on such a thin slice of a case?

If you wait, he will only present you with more evidence/information.... right?
Are you hoping he will accidentally show his hand during this meta-debate?

Why now, you ask? When you're sure you have a scum in your sights, I can't think of any situation where you would leave him for later. That only gives him more time to influence the unconvinced and engineer the mislynches scum so desperately need. Presenting more information or evidence is no longer necessary, there is enough evidence right now to hang him.

As for this "meta-debate," thats not what it is. Yos is the one using meta as a defense, I'm the one trying to get him lynched for being scum. And as for what I'm hoping will be revealed, I'm not angling for anything in particular to be revealed, if I had my way the guy would have been hanged days ago, but what is being revealed is a boatload of information about everyone else's alignment based on the way they're reacting to and interacting with me, Yos, the bandwagon on Yos and the bandwagon on Ether.

[OhGodMyLife]

Izzy, I humbly request that you distill your thoughts down to a top suspect and place a vote.

[OhGodMyLife]

Before I get into anything else, does anyone here other than Yosarian or Patrick want to venture a guess as to why the two of them continuing to hammer at wanting a reason for me not believing a miller IN THIS SETUP is terribly scummy?

[OhGodMyLife]

Why am I not surprised that when I specifically ask for the opinions of people not named Yosarian2 and Patrick they're among the first three to respond?

[OhGodMyLife]

Because it wasn't a logical argument he was making, it was one just designed to get an emotional reaction out of the people reading. There was nothing wrong with me asking incog what he thought about Ether, there is certanly no reason I wouldn't make those posts as town, and he didn't give a reason; he just tried to discribe my post in such a way as to make people paranoid about my motives.

Sorry, try again.

Appeal to Authority is, in fact, a scum tell and a logical point in my argument. Town has no reason to appeal to authority to strengthen their arguments. Additionally, casting Incognito as the authority which you are appealing to is a form of buddying up to him.

[OhGodMyLife]

The only person aside from Yosarian2 that I see myself being willing to lynch today is charter.

[OhGodMyLife]

In any case, I'm not sure why you're making such a big deal about this; it was never a major part of my case against her, nor one I really expected anyone to take too seriously, just one reason amoung many why her play here felt different to me then her play in the several games I've seen her as pro-town recently.

Not a major part of your case? Bullshit.

You're just playing it down now because I pointed out what a ridiculous position it was to suspect someone because they don't think you're obvtown.

[OhGodMyLife]

Just popping in to reiterate that the only person other that Yos who I would even consider lynching is charter.

[OhGodMyLife]

Oh, I see, he didn't reply.

Before I get into anything else, does anyone here other than Yosarian or Patrick want to venture a guess as to why the two of them continuing to hammer at wanting a reason for me not believing a miller IN THIS SETUP is terribly scummy?

What was the point of this question, OGML? It seemed like you had a reason for it.

OGML?

What was unclear about the question? Seems simple enough to me.

[OhGodMyLife]

skitzer, 461 is nothing like 437.

Izzy, Xd, I've gotten what I could out of my question, pressing me further on it will get you nowhere.

[OhGodMyLife]

I'm suddenly seeing Xdaamno burying himself in semantics arguments.

[OhGodMyLife]

skitzer, 461 is nothing like 437.

Izzy, Xd, I've gotten what I could out of my question, pressing me further on it will get you nowhere.

You don't want to tell us what you got out of your question?

At least one person already understood the basis for and what I got out of the question. Thats enough for me.

[OhGodMyLife]

skitzer, 461 is nothing like 437.

Izzy, Xd, I've gotten what I could out of my question, pressing me further on it will get you nowhere.

You don't want to tell us what you got out of your question?

At least one person already understood the basis for and what I got out of the question. Thats enough for me.

So you think there is a disadvantage to telling the rest of us?

Apparently so. Gonna stop pressing this yet?

[OhGodMyLife]

I echo Incognito's sentiments regarding this wagon. If we're not lynching Yos, we should be lynching charter. Yos' slimy addition to the bandwagon here is especially concerning.

[OhGodMyLife]

So...me joining a wagon on someone who's been high on my suspect list all day, who I've been strongly suspicious of basically since the very beginning of the game, and who has still constantly refused to do any actual scumhunting, is "slimy"?

Right, right; OGML dosn't actually care about logic this game, he's just trying to get me lynched in every single post of his no matter what I do or don't do or what else happens in the game, I keep forgetting that.

Yeah. Your so-called suspicions of Xdaamno have never been anything more than gut, and you've mentioned them nigh constantly without ever actually doing anything about it until suddenly there was a serious wagon to join. Joy of joys! Throwing down a "35-40% chance" of him being scum based on bad feelings does not constitute a case.

[OhGodMyLife]

I have yet to see an example of scum self-voting given that wasn't an obv-gambit in retrospect (Korts example of his own self-vote, charter's example of occam's self-vote), rather than someone appearing frustrated with the gamestate. All of the frustration self-vote examples have been from town.

[OhGodMyLife]

Unvote, Vote: charter

[OhGodMyLife]

This is the part where charter tries to fake frustration because being frustrated saved Xdaamno.

[OhGodMyLife]

Let's speedlynch him?

=======================

Page 25 Votecount

camn (0/7):
charter (4/7): OhGodMyLife, Patrick, Korts, Ether
DizzyIzzyB13 (2/7): charter, Xdaamno
Ether (0/7):
Green Crayons (0/7):
Incognito (0/7):
Korts (2/7): DizzyIzzyB13, Incognito
OhGodMyLife (0/7):
Patrick (0/7):
skitzer (0/7):
Xdaamno (1/7): Green Crayons,
Yosarian2 (0/7):

Not voting (3/12):

skitzer, Yosarian2, camn,

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Countdown To Deadline
============================

[OhGodMyLife]

Cult unlikely. Mafia recruiter - meh, maybe. Odds that recruiting mason is just a role that is very likely to go uncounterclaimed and charter is a mafia power role? Very high. "Try to draw out the cop or doc" is something that a mafia goon does when run up the flagpole. Try to survive for as long as possible is something a mafia PR does. Also, now charter has a lovely excuse for why he might get tracked to whoever dies tonight - he was just trying to be friends with them!

Let's speedlynch him.

[OhGodMyLife]

I'm all for not forcing an unnecessary claim out of anyone else today. My vote stays on whichever of charter and Yosarian2 is closer to a lynch at any given moment up to deadline.

[OhGodMyLife]

charter resorts to ad hom and straw man because he's out of options.

[OhGodMyLife]

charter resorts to ad hom and straw man because he's out of options.

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU WERE IN A MINI WITH A CULT?

Bolded for farsighted folks.

WHEN DID YOUR LYNCH SUDDENLY BECOME BECAUSE EVERYONE VOTING YOU THINKS YOU ARE CULT? THIS == STRAWMAN

Please see this post and get a better argument than THERE IS NO CULT SO YOU CAN'T LYNCH ME.

That all said, if you day mason recruit me right now I will go back to lynching Yosarian2. That would be both awesome and convincing.

[OhGodMyLife]

DC, mason vs. neighbor is a semantics issue. Some mods use mason to mean strictly confirmed town night talkers, some do not. A hypothetical mason recruiter is an obvious case of the not confirmed variety.

[OhGodMyLife]

I don't think charter targeting whoever we end up lynching is wise. Targeting me would be cool. Less cool but still safe choices are Green Crayons and Incognito.

In fact, charter not announcing who exactly he's targeting would be stellar, so his new mason buddy doesn't just get a bullseye drawn on their forehead. He should make the choice privately out of the people who the majority seem to have concluded are town (Green Crayons, Incognito), or myself, since I'm obviously town.

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian2

[OhGodMyLife]

We shouldn't lynch Korts. There's an easy way to tell if he's telling the truth. Still want dizzy or Yos or Incog lynch.

Izzy and Incog are both town. Help me with the Yoslynch.

[OhGodMyLife]

Korts does not get lynched today.

Yos' details about his role pm being specific to cop investigations is giving me food for thought. I could, just maybe, see him as a town and a red herring.

[OhGodMyLife]

I don't particularly like the prospects of either an Izzy lynch or an X lynch, but a no lynch would be disastrous so I'll put my vote on whichever one is closer to being lynched in a few hours.

[OhGodMyLife]

Damn. I was right about Patrick. *sigh*

[OhGodMyLife]

Also, Ether, stop being such a whiner.

[OhGodMyLife]

I'm not surprised at all that OMGL checked me. This even looks like a breadcrumb of sorts.

It was.

[OhGodMyLife]

Yos, the timing of your claim was really sloppy. I get the feeling you just did it on a whim there. I stand by my statement during the game of (something along the lines of) claim miller in your first post or don't claim at all.

I probably shouldn't have pushed the issue so hard but I really got hoodwinked by the setup. Even in my darkest, most bastardly dreams I never imagined a setup with three non-cop investigative roles and a miller. Genius.