Mini 773- Welcome to Lynchville! Perfection! (Over)

[Kublai Khan]

*insert generic /confirm message here*

[Kublai Khan]

I have experience playing with ppp973. Voting for him is the best Day 1 action for town.

[Kublai Khan]

I have experience playing with ppp973. Voting for him is the best Day 1 action for town.

Looking at ppp's past game, I see your point. However, if you're for an early ppp bandwagon, why aren't you voting him?

Because I'm not really sold on the utility of policy lynches. Plus I'm sure he's bound to dig himself into a hole sooner than later.

BTW - What's with the over-aggressive questioning during the random vote phase?

[Kublai Khan]

BTW - What's with the over-aggressive questioning during the random vote phase?

I don't think there's a problem with it, it's really the only way we're going to get out of random stage.

Yeah, but random stage is going to happen. Mind as well let people get it out of their system. Since PieIsPopcorn is starting the questioning in the opening 2 pages where people are still going to pop in with their random vote, all he accomplishes is sewing confusion and chaos into the opening procedures.

Better to let everyone show up, say their hellos, make their jokes, etc.., and then leap in with pointed questions. I just don't see the benefit in breaking with convention.

[Kublai Khan]

@ Kublai: PieisPopcorn has a point. I get the feeling you were trying to push that bandwagon without being on it. It's pretty minor as far as scumtells go, but combined with how snappy and defensive you're acting towards Pie in response, I think it's worth a vote switch.

Snappy? Defensive? Holy leaping to conclusions, Batman! Don't you have to know me first before making that call? All I said was that I disagreed with PieIsPopcorn's early game tactics.

And as far as "pushing a (ppp973) wagon without being on it" goes. Did you notice I put a smiley? It was a rib at ppp973, and I think he got it. (Or he may not of, I don't know, I still can't read him very well).

This is what "pushing a wagon without being on it" looks like:

I'll have a detailed post on the criticisms against me tomorrow after school, however I would like to say that I support the Kublai wagon.

Hell, he even unvoted within the post without voting for me.

[Kublai Khan]

Sorry ahead of time for the long post

I don't really see how this game has been a break in convention. Aggressive questioning during the random stage is generally how I've found games go from being random to serious. And that needs to happen at some point, doesn't it.

Yes, the random phase must turn into the serious phase at some point. But serious questions right at the beginning of the RVS will get joking replies, which is why it's pointless to rush the issue. People making cases based on RVS replies and "defensiveness" are trying to set people up.

As far as I'm aware, one more vote would have not lynched him, or even put him at L-1, or L-2. 4 votes would have put him at L-3, not a huge threat as far as a policy lynch is concerned. And if he is "bound to dig himself into a hole", I fail to see the negatives of putting pressure on him early. That way, we could have examined how that reaction potentially compares to his meta.

Pressure for what? I already said I know his playstyle. It's a non-sequitor playing style. Thus, no reason to vote for him.

Perhaps you and I just have a different definition of "over-aggresive"? I just am questioning details that I'm finding interesting. As far as I'm aware, that's how one scumhunts. Exactly what is wrong with aggressiveness during the early stage of the game?

It's the tone of the whole thing. You're not only questioning details, you're concluding things (others are guilty of this too). To me this doesn't feel like scum-hunting, it feels like framing.

Stuff like this:

I like this post. This was my point completely, and I find it interesting that Kublai didn't really had defensive and snappish connotations the moment I put pressure on him. There were slight hints with that "over-aggression" piece, but it wasn't particularly clear.

It was after Lester asked an (IMO) pretty innocous question that suddenly Kublai gets defensive and starts attacking my method of ending the RVS. It feels like if it were genuine, it would have been more immediate.

Yeah, you see this, this is both snappy and defensive.

Isn't a valid case against a scum. It's a case against the brashness of my playstyle.

I don't know if you're new to mafiascum, but tone means shit when it comes to finding scum. When someone received a role PM that says that they are scum, they don't automatically become rude and crude. Conversely, if someone gets a townie PM, then they don't become civil.

I'm not going to be nice to you, or pleasent, during the course of this game. Until the mod says something to convince me that you're town, you're my enemy. Now, I don't mind being described as "snappy". But yeah, I will be defensive if I'm being accused of things I'm not doing.

And you've never really explain why coherently. You state that my vote is over-aggessive, but you don't explain why this is anti-town. You state that suspecting players too early will simply lead to confusion and chaos, yet you don't explain why this is so.

It leads to confusion and chaos because nobody expects seriousness during the RVS. To be excessively serious during the RVS then judging the "towniness" of responses is a very dubious strategy. In fact, it's perfect for scum to make false cases.

At this point, the action itself isn't as important to me as how you reacted to being called on it. Instead of just waving it off, as you do here, you come up with wanting to avoid a "policy lynch", and qickly attack me for my methods of trying to inject some method into the RVS. If this was your genuine thought when stating such, why wasn't this your initial reaction?

I know I'm getting redundant which is why I hate these wall-o-text quoting style, but it's because I didn't take you seriously. And I never attacked you, I asked a simple question because I was starting to realizing that you were super cereal about your accusation that I was trying to steer a ppp973 lynch.

You are correct that I should have voted you, but I dislike voting for players until I have established why I find them scummy. I didn't have any time, and I wanted to explain both my suspicions, and that I had a new post coming. I could have done it in a much clearer way, and I apologize.

*cough*hypocrite*cough*

vote: PieIsPopcorn

[Kublai Khan]

You made scummy actions, but you also had a point against Kublai that I agreed with, therefore, I voted Kublai, more scummy, while you were also a high percentage.

Less commas and more sense, please.

[Kublai Khan]

Just did a re-read, everyone (of consequence) in isolation

Nice blinders.

-Kublai Khan's

Since PieIsPopcorn is starting the questioning in the opening 2 pages where people are still going to pop in with their random vote, all he accomplishes is sewing confusion and chaos into the opening procedures.
Better to let everyone show up, say their hellos, make their jokes, etc.., and then leap in with pointed questions. I just don't see the benefit in breaking with convention.

is a little more than, well, not good. This rings as very scummy to me, and even if I agreed with the principle of it (which I don't), the explanation is ridiculous.

What, exactly, is scummy about my opinion? If you disagree with me, that's fine, but since I've posted a more detailed explanation, you're going to have to use more than vague dislike to make a case against me (even if it's only an FOS).

@ppp973 (Re: No Lynch): Next time try playing a newbie game from the beginning. This subject is always covered. Braindead No Lynching gives town no info.

[Kublai Khan]

Pie asked a legitimate question in "why do you support this bandwagon but you're not on it?" Kublai Khan essentially ignores the question, then accuses Pie of sewing confusion as well as attacking people with pointed questions. I saw this as an overreaction.

I ignored it because it was a ridiculous question.

Because I placed my single, solitary vote on him, Kublai turns around and accuses me of jumping to conclusions and implies that I shouldn't make judgments because I don't "know him". I get the impression that he's nervous to even have any pressure on him whatsoever.

I'm sorry, but where did I say you couldn't make judgements about me?

I accused you of jumping to conclusions because, well, you jumped to conclusions. My reaction was neither snappy nor defensive.

I have noticed that Kublai Khan has also been somewhat hostile towards other players who have vocalized any sort of suspicion towards him

Portraying my asking Light-kun to make more sense as "hostile" is a serious mischaracterization. Did you miss where Light-kun agreed that his post made no sense?

Why are you trying so hard to bend facts to make me look bad?

[Kublai Khan]

I am under the impression that you are scum (you might have noticed). When I find something you do that supports that theory, I am going to draw attention to it. Yes, it's coming from a skewed and biased viewpoint. But I'm not one to stand around and act neutrally towards everyone. I have an opinion, which is more than I can say for half the people in this town. Not a fan of all these lurkers.

Alright, fine. I can see how you'd read the judgement thing out of that. But trying to portray me as being "hostile" against Light_kun was misrepresentation.

Honestly, I really don't think that ppp is scummy. I think he's annoying, yes, but that's no reason to lynch him. In my experience, the annoying players are very often town, who are trying to contribute but don't know how. Too often, scum can push for the lynch of these players by going for a policy lynch or painting their eagerness as scumminess.

I don't think that it's scummy to push for a policy lynch, as long as it's not a quick lynch. In my expecience scum will never NK a village idiot, infact they'll do their best to keep them in the game (assuming that the village idiot never "evolves" into a useful player). Do you see the inherent detriment of having someone like ppp973 around at a LYLO situation?

[Kublai Khan]

I see the danger of it, but I think it's irresponsible to lynch him, especially if you agree with me that he is most likely town. There's far more to be lost by lynching a townie than by possibly having a sticky lylo situation. We don't know if we'll go to lylo and all lylo's are complicated. So to make a decision based on that is just dumb imo.

I didn't agree with you. I've seen nothing to imply that ppp973 is town. I think he's a village idiot, which, by definition, makes him unreadable. Since Day 1 can tend to be a crapshoot, lynching ppp973 is a strongly viable option if we can generate no other leads.

[Kublai Khan]

People not voting Kublai Kahn: Do you think he's scummy, yes or no? Why are we letting ppp distract us so much that Kublai's accusations are no longer being pursued?

Uh, don't you need to actually present a case against me first? All you've said is "Kublai is scummy" a bunch of times.

[Kublai Khan]

@Kublai: Nervous? I never said I made a case and I don't need to make one to ask people's opinions.

No, not nervous... More confused. All I can do is twiddle my thumbs while you solicit opinions.

I guess I'll use the opportunity to re-read the game.

[Kublai Khan]

Hey Peeps. Looks like I;m going to be filling in PieisPopcorn's position.

*Reads and awaits PM*

Archon officially replaces PieIsPopcorn. Everyone give him a warm welcome...

....

Forget ppp973. Archon makes a much, much better policy lynch.

[Kublai Khan]

Cool. Interesting range of reactions.

For the record, I'm currently playing in an ongoing game with Archon. One in which neither of our roles are currently revealed, so obviously neither of us can really comment. So the comment is a meta-joke (one obviously that Archon got (post 188)) because in that game the idea of policy lynching got brought up as well. But if he plays this game like he's playing the other game, my comment will be prophetic.

Now for the record, I've already laid out my opinion on policy lynches in posts 147 & 149. I am carrying over some suspicion (and my vote) of PieIsPopcorn over to Archon, so I would strongly argue that I am not currently pursuing a policy lynch. That said...

I don't like this statement. If you're serious then you're scummy for wanting to lynch a player before they even really post anything. Of course, you could always hide behind your statement by saying you were just joking. Either way, it's not pro-town.

Unvote
Vote: Kubli Khan

What the hell is this post about? It's like a recipe for how to make scum pie.

You start with a hefty cut of hypothetical ("If you're serious..."), mix it with equal parts WIFOM logic ("...you could always hide..."). Flavor it with a dose of false dichtomy ("Either way..."). Bake it at a temperature that ignores any of my previous posts or positions on policy lynches (shows he doesn't read the game). And serve quickly with a pre-emptive vote within the same post (shows he's close-minded).

Great job, chef Archaist.

[Kublai Khan]

Flavor it with a dose of false dichtomy ("Either way...").

There are only two options: (1) you were serious, (2) you were joking (unless you can think of any more). Your comment is scummy in either context. No false dichotomy here.

That's not the two options you presented. You said that I was either (1) serious or (2) pretending to be joking. Then you voted saying that either way I was anti-town.

Bake it at a temperature that ignores any of my previous posts or positions on policy lynches (shows he doesn't read the game).

It doesn't matter what you said before, a scummy comment is a scummy comment. Going by your method if a player started out without any scummy posts he should be safe for the entire game because people attacking him would be ignoring his previous posts.

Ignoring your appeal to ridicule, what's wrong with that. True scum-hunting involves detecting long-term anti-town planning within an individual's play. Fake scum-hunting involves playing "gotcha!".

And serve quickly with a pre-emptive vote within the same post (shows he's close-minded).

Pre-emptive? Do I need your permission to vote or something? The only thing it shows is that I think you're scummy. If I was closed minded I wouldn't have unvoted Light-kun.

No, you don't need my permission, but you didn't wait or even ask me to explain my comment. You saw ppp973 and LesterGroans make "WTF? This sounds scummy" comments, so you lept in with a vote hoping to start a bandwagon.

This seems to be kinda a pattern with you. You put up a case & vote against alexhans, then abandoned it without any follow-up because you couldn't get anyone to join you. You put up a case & vote against Light_kun, but then abandoned it without a follow-up because nobody was joining you. Now you put up a case & vote against me.

unvote
vote: Archaist

[Kublai Khan]

Of course, you could always hide behind your statement by saying you were just joking.

That's not the two options you presented. You said that I was either (1) serious or (2) pretending to be joking.

Please tell me where I said "pretended." I said you

could

hide behind it, not that you

were

.

How does that make a difference? Your post 186 that (1) I'm either serious or (2) I could say I was joking (implying that I am not joking). Your "either way" statement limits my potential intentions to two scummy actions. It's a false dichotomy because it ignores possibility (3): I actually was joking. By ignoring this third possibility and only pushing forward the first two, you are attempting to frame me.

That's your opinion. Either method could work in the right situation. First of all I never said "gotcha!" if that's what you're implying. Even if I did say that, if it got a suitable reaction from someone it would be ok. Not every scum is going to plan out long term anti-town procedures.

No, I didn't mean that you literally said "Gotcha!". And no, I guess not every scum makes multi-day plans. Sometimes they spend the day building random cases, then abandoning them when nobody joins them. Thankfully this helps them stick out as townies are very unlikely to pursue this course of action.

You saw ppp973 and LesterGroans make "WTF? This sounds scummy" comments, so you lept in with a vote hoping to start a bandwagon.

Nice assumption. Care to prove what I was hoping?

Sure. In the following quoted paragraph you say you want to lynch people. Or are you saying that you voted me with no hope of starting a bandwagon?

Obviously. My goal is to lynch the people I find scummy. It's kinda hard to do that when I'm the only one that sees something wrong with what they post. All three of you are suspicious to me, so I would gladly lynch any.

So, are you saying that Light_kun superseded alexhans is scumminess? Then I superseded Light_kun? Is your scum order list currently 1) Kublai Khan, 2) Light_kun, 3) alexhans?

I ask because you've posted nothing that suggests that either alexhans or Light_kun have satisfactorily answered your questions. In fact you only abandon your votes after expressing frustration that nobody is going along with you.

Examples:

The Alexhans' case is over rated.

Over rated? There were a whole two posts about it when you said this, and you only commented on it after ChiefSkye4 did, not in your post right after I voted.

Light-kun ignored my questions again. And three people posted after him and no one else called him out on that? Come on guys, when a someone blatantly ignores clear questions and a vote, something is up. The rest of you three (RedCoyote, LesterGroans, ppp973) are either not paying attention (anti-town) or letting it slide purposely (anti-town, suggesting scum team).

It just sounds like you're less upset that alexhans or Light_kun aren't addressing your case, and more upset with the town for failing to jump on your bandwagon du jour. You're trying to direct traffic.

Oh, and nice OMGUS vote.

{sarcasm}Yeah, my vote is pure retaliation and I haven't provided any solid evidence to back it up.{/sarcasm}

[Kublai Khan]

See, you're assuming that I was implying something. I meant what I said (you could), nothing more. By stating your assumed interpretations of my words as fact, you are the one who is attempting to frame me.

You realize that your fourth sentence in post 186 was: "Either way, it's not pro-town." How in the world are you arguing that you weren't implying something?

You assume Kublai Khan was telling the truth. How it is proven that it was just a joke? There is no proof, so you assuming that there is is misleading.

Archon's post 188 proves that we have a history. It proves that I didn't just try to policy lynch any random Joe that walked into the room. Which is the basis for your vote against me, is it not?

[Kublai Khan]

The entire case on Archaist, so far as I can tell, is that he refuses to concede the obvious fact that KK was joking around with Archon. I'm not going to say this bandwagon is scum-driven, but I am going to say that the only people who I think are earnestly on the wagon are alex and possibly Brian. alex, to his credit, put together a better case against Archaist, and he's also the first people to jump from it the second he smells something's off. What that tells me is that alex is genuinely concerned about whether or not Archaist is scum (as opposed to just wanting to lynch whoever). I'm so-so about giving Brian credit because his post 209 just seems like a lot of words that amount to saying, "Archaist is scum for jumping on KK disingenuously".

This is more than I can say for the rest of the wagon however.

First, you are severely underrepresenting the case against Archaist. Go back and

re-

read my posts, alexhans' posts, and BrianMcQueso's posts. The majority of suspicion is based on Archaist's pattern of behavior, his false dichotomy, and (as a topper) pushing a false case against me.

Second, are you really attacking the majority of the bandwagon (minus alexhans & BrianMcQueso) before the lynch is complete and Archaist's alignment is known? Are you a mind-crime cop? Not every townie is going to post a huge post of brand new information and unique analysis every time they change their vote. It's not scummy to agree with what's been presented if you think it's a good case.

If you disagree with the lynch, that's fine. Your position is on record. But it sounds like you're dismissing a lot of researched and cited evidence out of hand while trying to cast false suspicion on people simply for agreeing with it.

[Kublai Khan]

The majority of suspicion is based on Archaist's pattern of behavior, his false dichotomy, and (as a topper) pushing a false case against me.

2 & 3 are the same thing, because, and correct me if I'm wrong,
[...]
his case against you

is

the false dichotomy you speak of.

That's correct for #2, but #3 (false case) is more referring to stuff like this:

You assume Kublai Khan was telling the truth. How it is proven that it was just a joke? There is no proof, so you assuming that there is is misleading.

Archon pretty much admitted that he got the meta-joke and joked back himself. For Archaist to continue to push a "How do you

know

he's joking?" reeks of desperation.

In any event, I can much easier explain Archaist's moves as those of a townie unwilling to admit he made a mistake than I am willing to write Light-kun's actions off. Light-kun has been swapping names and pushing lynches on people who he thinks are innocent. Light-kun strikes me as a player who is either trying to get on everyone's good side or just genuinely indifferent as to who does get lynched.

*shrug* We can only lynch one person a day. I concur that Light_kun is suspicious, but he's not at the top of my list right now.

I realize that, but then explain to me why Lester jumped on the wagon. He cites because of "baseless attacks" even though he concedes that he felt the same way that Archaist did about your infamous post!

My post was deliberately vague and provacative to anyone but Archon (who would know what I was talking about). It's my experience that most townies will approach such a post with caution. A sort of "WTF is that about?" attitude. LesterGroans and ppp973 both gave a typical townie reaction. Archaist didn't. He chose to use it to go on the offense. Then Archon posts and shows that he understood, that it was a meta-joke, both Archaist stayed the course with determination. If a townie is so stubborn that he can't give up a case in the face of contravening evidence, then he's still anti-town.

Add to that the pattern that's developed over this short game and it becomes apparent that his targets are picked at random and aren't followed with much conviction.

But it sounds like you're dismissing a lot of researched and cited evidence out of hand while trying to cast false suspicion on people simply for agreeing with it.

I'm not going to say this bandwagon is scum-driven

, but I am going to say that the only people who I think are earnestly on the wagon are alex and possibly Brian.

(emphasis added).

The problem I have with your quote is that just after the emphasis, there is the word "but". That word usually means that the second half of the sentence will completely contradict the first half and be more telling.

Examples:
"I'm not sexist, but women are inferior to men."
"I'm not trying to insult you, but you're ugly as hell."
"I'm not saying that the bandwagon is scum-driven, but everyone on the wagon (except alexhans and possibly BrianMcQueso) are dishonest and probable scum."

[Kublai Khan]

[To be continued]

Oh god, stop. Have a salient point. Then post examples that back up your point.

Why are you wasting everyone's time with bits like this:

You made scummy actions, but you also had a point against Kublai that I agreed with, therefore, I voted Kublai, more scummy, while you were also a high percentage.

Less commas and more sense, please.

Another useless response from KK.

Do I really have to spend my time re-explaining everyone of my posts? Do I really have to explain in detail about how Light_kun's post didn't make much sense? Again?? After he already agreed it didn't make sense?

If you think I'm scummy, then fine. But present a consice case, not sprawling bullshit.

[Kublai Khan]

You've consistently attacked everyone who's engaged in good faith scum hunting and found you've suspicious.

Because that's what I do. I solicit reactions, then I gauge them for scumminess. Now that you've laid out your thesis, do you care to back it up? Is everyone I attacked engaging in good faith scum hunting? Am I really attacking *EVERYONE* who has found me suspicious? Or are you using hyperbole to villainize me?

And you've again attacked not with content but with a dismissive and derisive response.When the PBPA is finished, I will put a tl;dr summary, but for now, as a replacement, you're getting what I would have posted if I'd been in the game at the appropriate time.

You're choosing to interpret my request for you to summarize yourself as "dismissive and derisive"? Wow, you don't think that's a stretch? I guess that's on par with you choosing to spin everything I've said the whole game as scummy. If and when you'll keep up your PBPA, I'll have a full record of how I've not said a single townie thing all game, yet still was town. Neat.

2) After replacing in for an inactive player, I want to establish a baseline of thinking for people rather than have a relatively small sample size determine how people judge me.

Yet you've chosen to tunnel-vision on one player rather than give a broad analysis of everyone, thus depriving everyone of being able to know your positions after my mislynch. Bra-vo!

1) Saying he didn't attack Brian when he did and 2) saying he wasn't pushing a policy lynch when he was (I refer to ppp, not archon.)

You're second point could have some merit, but even if I agreed with it, it wouldn't be enough for me to change my vote.

Doesn't have very much merit at all. I never pushed for a policy lynch on ppp973. I said:

I didn't agree with [cateraction's saying ppp is most likely town]. I've seen nothing to imply that ppp973 is town. I think he's a village idiot, which, by definition, makes him unreadable. Since Day 1 can tend to be a crapshoot, lynching ppp973 is a strongly viable option

if we can generate no other leads.

Note the emphasis. If it's two days to deadline and we're still on square one, then lynching a village idiot (over a no lynch) is a better strategy. I don't understand how anyone can honestly misinterpret that as "pushing a policy lynch".

As for my first point about the misrepresentation, I realize I made a mistake. I conflated KK's early attack on Brian ("Holy Jumping to Conclusions") Batman with his question to PiP ("What's with the over-aggressive questions".) My opinion about his general defensive and derisive attitude remains, but I was wrong to say he misrepresented his response to PiP's early move against him.

Heh. No shit. Re-reading the game through a "KK is SCUM!" filter generates the view that all my words are scummy. Weird, huh?

And to repeat: attitude and sass ≠ scumminess.

[Kublai Khan]

I will claim, because the deadline is approaching and my lynch will not help the town; I am a tracker.

Hmm..

unvote

Sorry, no new thoughts right now. Had dental surgery this morning and am on pain meds. Probably post something intelligent tomorrow.

Sorry. Thought I'd be less zonked then currently am.

[Kublai Khan]

...okay. Looks like KK hasn't answered enough today.

Answered what? You (again) haven't asked me any questions.

This is a crap shoot for me. I know I'll look pretty good if KK is scum. But...I am gonna look suckish is KK is town.

Still, I can see the scum...and qwints, more or less, reaffirms that earlier thought.

What does the bolded part mean?

[Kublai Khan]

Well, howdy Hohum.

I might have a tendency to agree with qwint's take on KK because KK definitely is NOT playing to his town Meta right now. He's overly defensive, somewhat combative and keeps asking for more and more out of qwints to support his case.

Geez.. You replaced in in 3 minutes and already you've had time to research my meta? Astounding.

He's played outside of the newbie queue as well.

Like Open 96?

Voting someone just because they hopped on a wagon is a bad idea whether you think they're scummy or not.

Isn't that exactly what you just did to qwints?

[Kublai Khan]

I've also noticed that since I replaced in and started questioning qwint's motives the two of you have reverted to this weird mode where you're defending each other now.

What? Defending? All I did was point out your hypocrisy!

I said earlier that you've answered enough today (to qwints). However, since someone just completely shot down my thoughts on Looker, I moved my attack back to you.

What attack? All you do is vote for me and repeat that you think I'm scummy (when you're not mistaking me for someone else). And who is "Looker"?

Qwints' case does bring up enough questions that I am reminded of earlier, you might be scum, thoughts I had. So, I am okay going back to voting you.

Oh, right. The same thoughts you never articulated, then recinded under the guise of 'mistaken identity'.

My position is either KK, or qwintz for D1 at this point. I don't like where the LK wagon is heading currently, though I can't completely discount the case against him.

What's your argument against me again? That I'm not playing to my "meta" and that qwintz is "over-bussing his scum partner"? I'm not sure what to make of your accusation-by-proxy technique.

Furthermore, anyone who attacks or defends someone else for reasons of meta is automatically slightly scummy.

[Kublai Khan]

I'm not BloodCovenent.

mod: Could you prod Archon & cateraction please

[Kublai Khan]

Archon, cater, alex, Chief, KK, Archaist, and Brian should get serious about their votes.

Yeah, yeah.. I've been zonked on Percocet for the past few days, so I've been taking it easy. But you're right. Deadline's coming. People need to take a stand.

I'm throwing my

vote on Light-kun

.

Light-kun, sorry, but you're just pinging scum like crazy. You can't keep your arguments straight on which players that you suspect, you're not even keeping track of who is in the game. You're insisting that my alignment is inverse to yours, which is hilarious from my POV. You're vote-hopping near deadline like crazy. You're defending yourself with meta. None of these reason you're adequately explained. So that's why I'm voting you.

And FOS's thrown out to the following

Archon isn't a lightning rod so much as he is a Sanjaya. He's coasting by and adding nothing to the discussion. So many people have attacked the idea of policy lynches that he's not worried at all abotu contributing. All he has to do is not screw up too horribly and he can skate to the LYLO Main Event.

ChiefSkye4 is also treading water by posting reactions on stuff that happened 4-5 pages ago. This is probably the second most blatant active lurking happening right now (after Archon).

Hohum, I'm really, really glad you replaced ppp973. But you rely too much on meta. By complaining that I'm not playing to my "town meta", you're trying to stifle me into a 1-dimensional easily readable player. I don't want to be easily readable, so I'm changing my playstyle to one that's more aggressive. This will probably change again in the future according to my mood, the weather, and the GNP of Venezuela.

Also, your post #300 doesn't sit right with me. It's not just incorrect, it's

suggestively

incorrect. It implies that any attack on you is a defense of qwints, and furthermore, that I've already done so. Plus how did you go from this:

It seems to have come down to a choice between {Kublai Khan} and LK, which is a tough call because both of you have some BS thrown on your cases and have had some legitimate points brought up against you as well.

to this:

My position is either KK, or qwintz for D1 at this point. I don't like where the LK wagon is heading currently, though I can't completely discount the case against him.

I know you switched out qwintz for Light-kun because of qwintz's vote change, but why did you ever list Light-kun as a top suspect if you consider him to be a "lightning rod" who has played according to his meta?

qwints, Hohum has a strong point. What happened to your case against me? You started out quoting everything I said and twisting it as scummy, then by the end (and after I pointed it out), you're reduced to agreeing that my case against Archaist had merit and that he was one of your top suspects. Anyone who stands up and says that they find the subject of a bandwagon and the person who started the bandwagon to be equally scummy is a fence-sitter, just waiting to see which side to join.

cateraction: why haven't you unvoted Archaist? Do you disbelieve his claim?

Everyone else I didn't mention: you're either looking town to me or you're a dirty lurker-scum who I am perched to attack. If you're unsure as to which you might be, then post more.

[Kublai Khan]

1) You completely misrepresent my feelings on the Archaist case. I always saw it as valid (see my initial PBPA). I just thought that you had only brought it up because he attacked you and that you emphasized the wrong reasons in your case on archaist.

2) You STILL have not done any active scum hunting. You're just voting for someone who attacked you.

3) I PICKED a side, but a deadline was approaching. I saw that the case against archaist was approaching and I realized that we needed A lynch at deadline even if it wasn't the best lynch.

1) I don't mean to misrepresent your feelings towards the Archaist bandwagon, but I am suspicions of the motivations behind your actions. You are a player in a mafia game. I'm not taking your word at face value.

Your opening tirade against me went from twisting everything I said into scummy malfeasance to agreeing that my case against Archaist was prefectly valid and well-reasoned. In the midst of that transition I called you out on your misrepresentation of my every word. I retain the possibility that you adjusted your "case" accordingly and pursued the case with a little less luster before ultimately abandoning it in favor of Light-kun. It's a possibility, albeit not a very strong one at this juncture.

2) I'm tired of this accusation. Your way of "active scum-hunting" is not the only way of scum-hunting and it can be predicatable to scum. I'm using another way where I make inflamatory ("baiting") remarks and then judge (and/or follow-up on) responses I think are scummy.

I made a case on Archaist not because he attacked me, but because of the specific way that he attacked me. I have to back off him because of the power-role claim, but time will tell.

3) So you think that I'm total scum, yet you're totally comfortable with the lynch that kk-scum was pushing? I interpret this as a total lack of conviction in your case against me.

Why don't you try posing your questions to me in an intelligible way instead of expecting me to pick out every single minute detail in your ridiculous walls of text. You're being purposefully vague in order to paint me in a negative light.

Didn't you read and interpret my meta in 45 minutes? How is it you have time to multi-post nonsense, but not have time to read a single post?

I'm really getting sick of you calling my case against LK "weak" when you admitted:

1) LK's play was wishy-washy and anti-town (318)
2) That you didn't like his voting behavior (311)
3) That you couldn't "competely discount the case against" LK (308)
4) That his spastic voting was "a tell" (302)
5) That there were "legitimate points" on LK (299)

You have hedged these admissions by the claim that anti-town isn't necessarily scummy and through references to LK's meta, BUT even LK has admitted that he usually has more justification for his votes (336).
You seem to be determined to keep a player around who you've acknowledged is anti-town and who has admitted that his play doesn't entirely match the meta.

God-damn this is right on the money. Hohum's play the past few pages has been really scummy.

*Notes will be finished asap tomorrow. The rest will be a skim read since I was mostly more clear at this point on. Covers page 1-6

Uh, "large analysis post" should not equal "director's commentary". Couldn't you just do a player-by-player analysis summaries?

[Kublai Khan]

-Case on Kublai Kahn-

Dammit, it's like I was promised an all new show, but all I got was a repeat.

I really don't mean to be "derisive and dismissive" again, no wait.. sorry, your version has me "brazen and defensive". Your case is like a cheap Bollywood knock-off of qwints case against with a little bit of Hohum's arguments to jazz it up for the kids.

Deadline is coming up. Why the hell are you launching into a major case against me with under 20 hours to go? Most of your "evidence" is days/weeks old. Hell most of it deals with my interactions with PieIsPopcorn and ppp973 and both of them have since been replaced.

In the newer stuff you accuse my case against Archaist of "lacking a scum motive". Which is really weird since you agreed with my case against him to vote for Archaist. Twice.

You've been asked to defend your actions and your spastic votes. Mafia isn't football, the best defense is not a good offense. Especially when your offense isn't that good.

[Kublai Khan]

well, drop it now because scum just found out that they musn't take the bait...

Yeah, I kinda meant to as of post 393. But then I had a relapse in post 407. My bad.

Why're you apologizing? If I'm guilty, you would vote me anyway, right?

This IS a bit weird about KK, considering he is usually much more aggressive. It's almost as if he was having second thoughts or trying to excuse himself in case of a mislynch.

Of course I have second thoughts. It's day 1! Light-Kun was my best educated guess for scum. But after his last few posts, I feel more certain. At this point he's either a liar (self-admitted 80% liar) or scum. It's a great lynch for Day 1.

mmmm... Maybe you have a point that it's kinda hypocryte of KK to say that the best defense is not a good attack when he is usually so aggressive. I'll look into that.

Hey now. I'm not a hypocrite. I've never defended myself from an attack by Person A by saying "Hey! Look how scummy Person B is!"

[Kublai Khan]

EBWOP: Heh. Didn't see Light-Kun's claim. Doesn't matter. I don't believe it. No PR would wait until that close to deadline to claim.

This is my last post today.

[Kublai Khan]

@Light-kun: Why didn't you protect Archaist like you implied you would?

@Archon: Are you scum?

@hohum: mass claim is bad idea.

@BrianMcQueso: You're looking pretty scummy for being the last voter and trying to push the lynch back away from cateraction. Do you want to take a moment to explain why unvoting without re-voting at deadline isn't a scummy play?

[Kublai Khan]

I'm still in favor of a mass claim. ESPECIALLY if KK flips a PR.

ABR: What was your night action and why?

Holy misattribution batman! Who the fuck is still pushing for a mass claim?

Since the day began I haven't mentioned anything about a mass claim. Instead of asking me whether or not I still supported a mass claim you're merely shoving words into my mouth.

The flip actually caused me a moment of pause, and I did say at some point yesterday during the long, drawn out and distracting argument that occurred at the end of the day that I would only be in favor of a mass claim if SOMEONE ELSE (and my choice was KK) flipped a PR -- and obviously that didn't happen.

You're overreacting. One Day 1 you said that you were ESPECIALLY (not only) in favor of a mass claim if I flipped PR, then you ask Albert B. Rampage for his night action at the beginning of Day 2.

It's a reasonable assumption that you may still be in favor of a mass claim given your Day 1 words and Day 2 actions.

This is his post at the deadline after being effectively gone for a week and a half. No concern over Light-kun's claim, no concern with hunting, no concern with his vote, no concern with cater... story of Archon's game so far. No concern about the outcome of the lynch. Wasn't Archon's vote on KK a joke to being with? Some sort of inside joke they had about a game they were playing in?

Archon never actually made a vote. His vote on me was actually PieIsPopcorn's vote carried over. But posting at deadline without changing his vote, makes it his vote.

This [BrianMcQueso's 476] is coaching, without a doubt. Brian here is begging cater to claim a PR. I think Brian senses how flimsy the cater wagon is (e.g. hohum and alex together).

I got the exact same impression.

Why small? Why improbable? What are the statistics? 2) KK tried to lynch LK even though he claimed doc. Cater tried to appeal to emotion and play it cool, softclaiming a PR 3) The godfather reasoning seems good. But What if KK has a role that is useful for scum... say, Roleblocker? I would choose that before Godfather.
I'm not ready to call KK town. At all.

(Note sure why your numbers start at 2, but...)
2) Light-kun stated that he retracted 80% of his Day 1 comments. I really don't trust anything he says.
3) I'm not sure I agree with this, but I'm not in a position to comment.

And I'm not ready to call you town either but you're right in that you were the one trying to call attention to cateraction, so it's very unlikely that you're scum. What's your opinion on BrianMcQueso?

[Kublai Khan]

I was joking around with ABR because Mafia is NOT SRS BSNS, and only drama queens should treat it as if it is. Did you see me pursue ABR when he didn't answer? No. Did you see me throw a FoS, or a pressure vote on him? No. That's the indicator. That's why you should have realized I was joking.

That's a pretty weak defence. You never explicitly stated that you changed your mind on the mass claim idea. All my original comment back on 509 was to voice my opinion on your mass claim idea since I wasn't around to give my opinion.

And how would a FOS or vote be an indicator of seriousness? You went from the idea that all pro-town players had a PR to asking Albert B. Rampage what his night action was. And you're angry at us for asking "What the fuck?"?

I'm not accusing you of anything. Hell, I don't really think your scum at this juncture. So roll a fatty, chill the fuck out, and quit making jokes.

Post 522, then the very top of your post, 523. This *JUST* happened. Quit being lazy and do your own homework.

Scooped you both on my 509, natch.

@alexhans: Did you miss my question at the bottom of 524 or are you just not answering it?

[Kublai Khan]

Where's KK too? He disappeared since a few pages ago, right? (This is the side note!)

Uh, it's only been one page but yeah, I'm still here.

If people don't like a mass claim, I'd suggest we have one vanilla townie claim. It's quite possible we don't have any and learning we're all power roles would give us quite a bit of information.

I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him down an infinitely long escalator, but Archon claimed townie. I'd list to reiterate my insistance that a town mass claim is a bad idea.

I like BrianMcQueso's reasoning here. Very profound. Very well thought out.

Is that sarcasm?

And, since I'm already addressing you.. If we lynched qwints and he turned up town, would your lynch the following day a good town move?

@BrianMcQueso: RedCoyote never address/mentioned cateraction? That is a blatant lie. Moreover, it's an easily disproven lie. WTF?

[Kublai Khan]

@Hohum: Holding grudges over multiple games isn't helping. Also, multi-posting is annoying. Finish your thoughts and lay out your case before hitting 'submit'.

@BrianMcQueso

Fack. I filtered RC, searched for "cateraction", and jumped to conclusions without looking for "cat" or "cater". That was just plain dumb beyond belief.

It's more than that. You flat out attacked RedCoyote and called him a hypocrite. But you never even read him in isolation? In fact, this shows that you never paid much attention to the game until the deadline.

@Light-Kun

Qwints: I agree with Qwints 591. I understand his Archon case. I still think he is one of the more scummy people today, and right now, I think he knows he can't get kk lynched, so he's attacking lurkers instead of really thinking throught. His reasons in 591 make a lot more sense, but I'm posting this to explain how he went from: That's kind of scummy -> hmm...might makes sense from town aligned viewpoint.

I agree with you on this assessment. {Man, there's been a lot of agreement and civility on Day 2.}

I'd be more than happy with a lynch of either BrianMcQueso or Archon. It's very possible that Albert B. Rampage could strongly convince me to vote for qwints.

Until that happens,

vote: BrianMcQueso

.

[Kublai Khan]

KK

, can I ask you, since you've played (or are playing) with him, what do you think about Archon's play?

Played. Newbie 751 ended. He's doing a lot of the same stuff in this game as the newbie game (filler posts about why he hasn't posted, inappropriate jokes, doesn't read large posts, ignores direct questions). The only difference is that in the newbie game at least he tried to implement a scum-hunting strategy (OMGUS voting, I shit you not). Here, he hasn't.

He ended up being vanilla townie in Newbie 751 against every single one of my instincts. He's the sort of townie that will make this post near the beginning of the game, this post near the middle, then ends LYLO with this post.

He reads like his real goal is build himself a meta where he's very unhelpful and anti-town so that he can get away with being scum. And he doesn't care how many games he loses in the process.

[Kublai Khan]

Obviously, KK is the apple juice in this metaphor.

I feel somewhat demeaned by this.

Skruffs replaces LesterGroans, everyone give him a warm welcome.

Welcome Skruffs! Please give your opinions.

[Kublai Khan]

Apparently he didn't. He just used Ctrl-F to search the word "cateraction" in RC's and mine's isos (or mayb e in the printing version in general...) and found nothing until the vote.
It's a possible mistake but the lack of investigation before the accusation concerns me. Anyone who read the game should remember the common used nicknames (and how they may change over time, I only started calling Light-Kun LK have through the game)

It's an OMGUS accusation. A pro-town player would verify that his case holds some water before making it so that he doesn't come across as making an OMGUS case. BrianMcQueso's "oops" just doesn't feel sincere.

How? With his 1-liners pushing for a lynch?

I may kick myself for this later, but yes. Albert B. Rampage isn't a bad mafiascum player. Posting 1-liners pushing for a lynch can have a pro-town implication. But I'm not following him based on that implication alone.

Howdy Howdy I'm replacing someone.
So according to page one's first count, Qwints has two votes.
Let's discuss this!

Oi. Just because you replaced Archon, it doesn't mean you have to post like Archon.

Are you inferring (by telling me to read myself) that you have no opinion on the votes on Quints?

Actually, alexhans has been pretty clear on his opinion about qwints (and the votes on him). Maybe you should read the game.

[Kublai Khan]

Howdy Howdy I'm replacing someone.
So according to page one's first count, Qwints has two votes.
Let's discuss this!

Oi. Just because you replaced Archon, it doesn't mean you have to post like Archon.

Wait, sorry. You're replacing LesterGroans, not Archon. My bad.

[Kublai Khan]

Hm... who's been quiet today?

Kubali Kahn

KK hasn't been quiet IMO...

I think he's had 4 posts today, but I made that list from memory, so could be wrong.

Not this again. This is what got you in trouble on Day 1. Compile evidence/accusations properly, then present it. None of this "I think... wait, I take it back" stuff. It's scummy.

I've posted my fair share today. As far as I'm concerned, we're waiting on Skruffs, Archon's replacement, and Albert B. Rampage to finally weight in on this game.

If I didn't replace you would still have been in a night phase. I skimmed the thread and I found qwints suspicious without knowing the reason why yet. I'll post content on the newer posts but I don't have lotsa time to do the full re-read of doom.

You replaced in a week ago and you still haven't done more than skimmed? If you knew you had exams coming up, why'd you sign up for a new game that you'd have to read several pages worth?

Mod Edit: I Fixed your broken quote tags. If i flipped the names around or something PM me and ill fix it, but i think i did it right.

[Kublai Khan]

I guess we can always pressure the slackers.

unvote

vote: Albert B. Rampage

[Kublai Khan]

I'm finding myself agreeing with Light-Kun on the issue of scum keeping quiet on Day 2. The way that the deadline lynch happened at the end of Day 1 is a smorgasbord of leads for Day 2 and anyone that is avoiding commenting on it is scummy as hell.

The fact that Albert B. Rampage has only skimmed really irks me and Skruffs' attempt to get us to discuss something that's already been discussed was lame. Hopefully Skruffs will finally read the game on Thursday and participate.

[Kublai Khan]

Who besides LK is "dead set" on Brian being town?

KK unvoted him, alex has said that he is opposed to lynching him at the moment,

I'm still in own of lynching BrianMcQueso today. I was hoping that a little pressure from town might get Albert B. Rampage to post more. (hint, hint)

[Kublai Khan]

Well my vote went from a pressure vote to a serious vote.

[Kublai Khan]

Well, I guess you would be most interested in my opinion on Albert. I've told alex before and I will tell you now, Albert appears to be playing to his town-meta. I can send you a link to the specific game I'm talking about, but that's about it. I've only played with Albert once before, and he was doing some of the same things that game that he is doing now.

Yeah, but his town-meta is easy to duplicate when he is scum. That's why he should be pressured. So far he's making his short posts with strong opinions and little details, then when someone questions him on it, he complains that questioning him is unfair because he's really busy with school. He's been repeating that pattern for 3 weeks now! And now he's stated that he won't be done with finals until after the deadline.

I'm fine with either a BrianMcQueso or an Albert B. Rampage lynch today.

[Kublai Khan]

Should I hammer now, or wait to see if Albert B. Rampage or Skruffs need to be replaced before night?

[Kublai Khan]

Hey! Skruffs is back! Archon is replaced! Albert B. Rampage is posting! We've got a full game!

BrianMcQueso is at L-1. I'm willing to hammer, but I would much rather hear Skruffs and Johnny Rotten have to say about who they think is scum or town and why.

[Kublai Khan]

Dangit, I"m not meeaning to lurk, it's been site wide, just been having a crisis or two at work. Tonight is the night.

Damn, Skruffs. You replaced in 2 weeks ago and all you've done is make 4 posts and almost all of them are apologies for not posting and/or promises to read and post later.

unvote

Vote: Skruffs

I want to hammer BrianMcQueso and all it takes for me to do it is for you to post some analysis of the game (preferably a PBPA). I can't think of any good reason for a person to replace into a game and go for 2 weeks without even reading the game much less making a content post. It feels like you're trying to get away with not posting until Night 2.

Also @Albert B. Rampage: quit being a Zwet-wannabe and post an analysis of the game.

[Kublai Khan]

I just checked Skruffs' posting record and it looks like he posting the same "Tonight is the night" post in every game he's in. So

unvote

.

I guess today is pretty much done. Brian's not going to say anything, and nobody has anything left to say, so whatever. Hopefully tomorrow will be totally different.

vote: BrianMcQueso

[Kublai Khan]

Shit, that was awesome. Tough game for scum, but great game for town. Especially RedCoyote and alexhans. The timely push of cateraction as an alternate lynch at deadline was the key to the whole game. It allowed the best townies to pretty much clear each other, then band together with patient, thorough scum-hunting. Which is cool because lately a lot of mods are making setups to discourage "follow-the-cop" playmentality on this site. We didn't have one cop/tracker result and we didn't need it. Vanilla Townies totally owned this game.

Of course big props to Qwints for his accurate 1-shot vigging. With the never-revealed gunsmith result on him and most of the town thinking he might be scum, he toughed it out and gave very a pro-town analysis of the game and ultimately did some great (literal) scum-hunting. Kudos to him.

And the MVP does go deservedly to RedCoyote. As much as it hurt my ego, you were right in your observation that if I were scum I wouldn't have the balls to vote a claimed power role then leave at deadline. (I should probably work on that ). I dread the day that I have to play against you.

I really didn't mean to be such an aggressive ass on Day 1 and it's really not my style, but ironically it was BrianMcQueso's scummy "snappy and defensive" comment that made me pursue it as a strategy. I figured that as a townie I had nothing to lose by trying to draw out scummy cases against me. Mixed results I guess. The Archaist case was bad and outed our tracker. And I think it drew unfair suspicion to qwints and hohum. But I like to think that it helped create some dynamics that exposed cateraction and Light-kun as scum. (Note to Light-kun: Never state that your retracting 80% of your comments. For me that was like you sprinting up the gallow steps.) BrianMcQueso got tripped up on the deadline lynch with him looking for a PR claim and a time extension. cateraction probably should have took him up on him and claimed something. But it was a tough call at deadline with neck and neck lynches on whether or not to bus.

Good luck with your job-hunting Brian. Just use your excellent mafia skills to convince potential employers to hire you. I think that if you had had more time to play, you probably would have gotten town to mislynch at least once.

Speaking of which, hopefully Skruffs posts and lets us know what the story was. Strangest replacement ever.

Also, I hate to be mean, but the dropping out of unreadable players like ppp973 and Archon really helped out the town a great deal, despite sending afatchic on a constant search for replacements. Albert B. Rampage's initial vote for qwints and his push for a wagon made me think that maybe he had a guilty result on him, but once he changed his vote I would have gladly lynched him. The zwet-style is just not useful or helpful.

If everyone could answer these questions it would be very helpful to me in the future..
1)Did i prod too often/ often enough?
2)Was the flavor overkill?
3)What do you think of the setup?
4)Did i post votecounts often enough?
5)Did you ever use the votecount in the first post?
6)What could i have done differently to make the game better?

1) Did fine work here
2) Naw, I like good flavor. Always makes a game fun.
3) Seems like it might have been tilted a little towards scum.
4&5) Actually, I think we could have used a couple more frequent votecounts. Even when I made my final vote I wasn't sure if it was the final vote, I had to use the first post votecount and count from that post.
6) Nothing really. The lack of players willing to replace was the biggest pain but that's out of your control.

And thank you very much for setting up and modding this game. Excellently done.

[Kublai Khan]

Huh.. I find it pretty funny that LK thought I might be SK. The panic after Day 1 was great. I feel bad for the scum team.

Hey, where's our scummie nom, afatchic?!

[Kublai Khan]

Where can i nominate it at? I don't know where to do it.

In the Mafia Discussion forum. There's a Scummies 2009 thread that's stickied.

Oh, and your sig is a little out of date.