Open 124 (2:10 Bugs Bunny -- GAME OVER) before 761

[Cephrir]

Vote: Empking

I just made a protown decision.

[Cephrir]

Yeah it is, could call Zackrulez and picking up on stuff like that is very townish

1. No, it's not.
2. It's not really a good idea to point out who you think is protown, IMO.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

Empking - 4 - roflcopter, dejkha, Giuseppe, Cephrir
Grimmy - 3 - Grimmy, Empking, millar13
millar13 - 1 - Zachrulez

zwetschenwasser - 0
Pablo Molinero - 0
Giuseppe - 0
dejkha - 0
Zachrulez - 0
Cephrir - 0
roflcopter - 0
AndyTony - 0
madeofphail - 0

Not Voting: zwetschenwasser, Pablo Molinero, AndyTony, madeofphail

With 12 players, it takes 7 to Lynch.

[Cephrir]

you are wrong. and in this setup, its especially a good idea to say who you think is pro town. if enough townspeople agree on the same person being town, it almost forces the mafia's nightkill, because there is zero chance of that person being mislynched. and hey, look what the only power role we have is?

Fine, fair enough. I was thinking in general.

I have the worst feeling that if he is town, he's probably doc.

You say it like he's guaranteed to be lynched today. Which... as I go down a few posts is starting to seem reasonable.

Ordinarily I might write off millar's actions as noobish, except for that little "Mafia Scum" tag. He should really know better. (prepost edit: this on page 3, from what I've seen since then it's a massive understatement)

I can confirm that I am town...and If I am not...I will leave Mafiascum.net

I hate you.

Roflcopter just plays this game to well, like a poker player bluffing with a Two and Four. Bluffing like a bitch

New meta, lynch all good players. Oh wait, that's retarded.

Vote: millar13

Wow, way to completely implode within five pages. That might be a record (except I'm pretty sure it's not). I think we've discovered a worse player than Empking.

Unvote, Vote millar13

because honestly I have no problem with him being on L-1.

[Cephrir]

Addendum: It occurs to me that my last post comes off like I just think millar is awful and useless, but I do also think he's scum. That's not just LAL talking either.

[Cephrir]

Now, I recommend explaining why you tried so hard to draw attention off Empking by drawing it directly onto yourself. That's what it amounts to, at least. If you didn't think it was right, you could have argued against it, like I was.

Keep in mind, I'm not sure you'll save yourself. But make sure you get your opinions on the game out into the open before you're lynched. Reread the game, and put out some words, as if they were the last you'd have.

Hi coaching.

i should learn to keep stumn and lurk like an elf

What?

[Cephrir]

Coaching- telling others how to play- mild scumtell IMO. And obviously it also suggests a link, but I generally don't bother speculating on scumpairs until there's a dead scum.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir for DOC

I am scum, hammer me please.

[Cephrir]

Millar's doomed himself. Can we please just hammer and be done with it?

Belated distancing?

I don't know that we necessarily have to end the day yet now that I think about it. We're gaining a wealth of info from letting millar sit at L-1. Should be useful when we hunt for his scumbuddy tomorrow. The more I think about millar's actions the more certain I become that he's claiming scum with his last post.

I think it's pretty funny how much Empking has been discussed even though his only post is a random vote XD

[Cephrir]

Let's keep Millar sweating at L-1 in hopes that if he is indeed scum, he will lead us to a partner

Well you're not supposed to point out that part DX

[Cephrir]

The Doc suspect is the only reason I wanted to keep Millar around - in case he's scum sending a line out to his partner.

After re-reading - I feel like Dejkha had it spot on in an earlier post regarding Millar being a pissed off towny who wanted a power role.

Killing Millar will hurt the town.

I'm wondering if you just know he'll turn up town, which seems like a pretty outlandish theory to me at this point. He's claimed scum.

I find it suspicious that you would want to hang him so quickly

Are you kidding me? How could anyone possibly be suspicious of a desire to lynch millar? He's like the scummies thing that has ever happened.

- - sorry for not answering the question - - I wanted to keep him around because he's without a doubt a poor player - which means if he's scum, he can lead us to other scum

Aren't you basically just saying that lynching scum is a bad idea? WTF?

@Pablo: I'm pretty sure rofl's attitude is as far away from "apathetic" as it's possible to get. And I think he's right on, millar really needs to die and it'd be stupid if he was allowed to slip through this day. He's pretty clearly demonstrated that he has no plans to help the town ever, seeing as he refused to do much of anything even when he was basically a dead man walking. If he is town by some ridiculous happenstance, we'll still gain a lot of info and be able to move on to analyzing what went down today. Otherwise we can't really use the wagon to do anything.

FoS: Andy, Pablo

I just don't get why people are going after anyone but millar and I feel like in a setup with only two scum, scum are more likely to go out of their way trying to derail a wagon on their buddy, especially this early on. Pablo is backing off millar now pretty suspiciously IMO, once it became apparent that it was possible to save him.

I feel like Zach is on the right track with his most recent post but didn't quite say it right.

[Cephrir]

I identified outing a pro-town power role as a scumtell, yet he still performed this detrimental act to the town, further identifying himself as scum.

Yeah, but IMO he was blatantly outing himself as scum intentionally and has since changed his mind.

but lets have him say somethign relevent and hopefully squeeze some info out of him.

Like I said, I think it's apparent that this won't happen.

And I'm saying we should KEEP hiim around if he's scum, because the only thing we do know is that he's a weak player, and his weakness will either prove a poor towny, or a shitty scum that will lead us to his partner

But he won't, because he's decided not to say anything relevant. Also, telling him your plan makes it ineffective.

his weakness will either prove a poor towny

Poor townies don't help us win. It's not like there is any possibility at all that millar will make it far in the game, and he obviously knows it.

I'm not ready to mislynch so early, it would hurt us

Every time you talk about lynching millar you sound like you know beyond any doubt that he is town. Getting more suspicious by the moment.

Scum should be lynched while you have the chance. The less scum there are, the quicker it is to winning. Leaving any known scum alive is anti-town because given our one lynch a day limit, it gives the scum an extra day. Furthermore, if there's only one scum, it pressures that person.

DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING winner!

You made me pissed off

Yeah, lynching you for being scummy is pretty damn offensive.

[Cephrir]

Shouldn't you have your own opinions, and your own suspicions?

Should you not have waited to drop the hammer if you were unsure of Millar?

Your actions seem to be in conflict with your statements.

Vote: AndyTony

I want a better explanation of your mindset yesterday.

I support this product and/or service.

I should have time to do something a bit more thorough tomorrow. Constantly posting analyses of players seems like a good thing to do in this setup. ANyway, it will probably be difficult to draw a ton of conclusions from the millar lynch but I'm sure there will be a few things to pursue.

Empking, please stop talking. Like, forever. If you never say anything I won't have a rising urge to policy-lynch you.

[Cephrir]

Emp [...] you've got yourself a good case.

Does not compute. Logical conclusion: zwet is wrong or lying.

[Cephrir]

Empking, you do realize that as the definition of active lurking, you're not allowed to accuse anyone of the same. And I wasn't/haven't been. Unrelatedly, every post doesn't have to "help the town" ya know.

[Cephrir]

Instead of basing everything on the last two pages, how about you read the thread.

[Cephrir]

I was also finding Giuseppe a bit odd yesterday, I'll look over what's been said later.

RL is eating me again =/

[Cephrir]

Apologies in advance if any of this is redundant (it probably will be). I decided to do a little analysis without fully reading others' analysis of the same players. I think I'll be able to see things other people haven't better if I don't know what they said. It makes sense to me, 'kay? All post numbers are based on what shows up in the 'view all posts by X' function.

Giuseppe

A quick lynch is a stupid lynch, even if it is Empking. Hell, especially if it's Emp. I mean, come on. He's scummy. We know that. But quick-lynching him for stuff we know is stupid.

Sounds like he's trying too hard to sound protown. Also, see the quote from rofl below.

if emp is scum, either giuseppe or zwets is his partner

Any real reason you're setting me and Zwet up to be lynched? I hardly say that stopping a quick lynch of Empking qualifies as defending him overtly. Let him actually have a chance to be scummy before you lynch him, at the very least.

Massive overreaction. And lynching Emp before he posts totally has merit =P. (No really, now that he's posting I almost wish we'd gone through with it. Even when I've seen him in other games he hasn't been so abrasive, hypocritical and blatantly useless.)

Well, then that means that Empking can't very well come up scum, can he? At least that's how it looks from my perspective, using your argument.

Stupid logic.

That said, you did meta on Zwet, do meta on me. It's a tendency of mine, good or bad, to back out of lynches or unvote if I have any apprehensions about a lynch happening.

Asking to be meta'd is scummy.

Don't claim scum if you don't mean it. Lynch all scum, lynch all liars.

Sounds like he knows millar will be town, although to be fair there were several people who did that.

I'm noticing that he's being attacked fairly heavily by roflcopter... I think his death kinda points to the possibility of the Giuseppe-Emp pairing that he was mentioning since that's the only huge reason I can see that anyone would choose to kill him. I don't usually like speculating on nightkill motives but, meh. Not like it really makes much difference that I'm pointing this out since I think the Emp-Giuseppe links are obvious enough that either would come under pressure if the other ever flipped scum.

Keep in mind, I'm not sure you'll save yourself. But make sure you get your opinions on the game out into the open before you're lynched. Reread the game, and put out some words, as if they were the last you'd have.

I pointed this out yesterday, this is obv coaching of millar. Scum tactic used to sound townie? I don't see why he'd be giving honest advice to someone he appears to believe is scum.

Post 29 sounds fake/forced.

1. My treatment of Millar was in the hopes of drawing useful information out of an erratic player who was heading towards a lynch. If he claimed a scum buddy, got lynched, flipped scum, that would have been good, no?

Could you show me how you were doing this? I don't see it.

PS: This sounds like I'm convinced Giuseppe is scum; I'm not. Actually a reread makes me feel better about him since most of what I saw was little things. Obviously if Empking ever flips scum he'll merit a second glance but I'm not particularly inclined to put my vote here. If we want to investigate the Emp-Giuseppe thing, Emp is a vastly better lynch because he's useless and obnoxious. But I don't think lynching based on a pairing that's alive in its entirety is bad play. It's entirely possible that his defense of Empking was an attempt to sound to sound protown that has nothing to do with Empking's alignment too. Hasn't been causing too many waves which isn't great but I'm guilty of the same, so meh.

tl;dr: Roughly neutral.

PPE:

Dejkha's been conveniently leaving out the fact that at that time, I had no read on Emp's alignment.

And your point is?

That was initiative of my own, and it's not like it was some petty, little thing to try. Defending Empking, Lord knows, isn't a popular decision.

Way to exaggerate your merits

Did you really just try and use the NK as a piece of evidence against me? Isn't that WIFOM out the wazoo?

To a point, but there can still be something gained by thinking about who wants to kill X.

That sits really ill with me that you'd try to devise the motives of the scum out of the night action.

"It sits really ill with me that you'd try to figure out what the scum are trying to do based on the one thing we know they did." Huh?

And of course you picked Empking when pressured for a suspect. If you're hypothetically scum together you pretty much have to right? I read this as possible distancing. And if it's not then you've basically just picked who you find most likely to be scum based on what they're

not

doing. Yes Empking is unhelpful and likely to stay that way. But as a top suspect? Not that you're the only one who seems to take this viewpoint, so this is more directed at all those suspicious of Empking. Empking by definition can't really be far below neutral because he hasn't done anything overtly scummy. The people attacking Emp IMO are saying everyone else seems protown. Which isn't to say I won't fall into the same camp if I don't find anything compelling looking back, but an Empwagon strikes me as lazy scumhunting.

[Cephrir]

zwet, you're wrong. Can we move on now?

[Cephrir]

millar13 - 6 - Zachrulez, madeofphail, Giuseppe, roflcopter, Cephrir, Empking, AT

These are who we should be looking at

That's too narrow-minded. Keep in mind that the scum knew millar would be town, so it's also possible that they stayed off the wagon for that reason. Honestly I'm at least as suspicious of those who didn't vote millar yesterday as those who did; I suppose I may be partial for obvious reasons.

[Cephrir]

In case no one figured it out, my Giuseppe thing last page will probably be the first in a series of analyses of the most active players to help me figure out a position since I've fallen a bit behind. This game has quite a few lurkers and I'm ashamed to be part of that group =/

[Cephrir]

1). He's hard to read.

this makes him a valuable player to the mafia. Because a). if he's town, he will mislead the town. b). If he's scum, its harder to identify him.
So, he's a tool for the scum either way, the only problem with lynching him is if he is the doctor. (out of twelve players, two are dead and two are scum, so one in eight chance (12.5%) if we were to make it randomized).


2). He pisses people off, and is generally a bad player.

I do not like to do personal attacks, because I do not know them in real life, so I do not believe that it is really fair to insult someone unless you really know them. There are enough angry people on the internet ready to insult people, we do not need them here.

As far as being a bad player goes, this makes him a liability for the town, as he does not help the town hunt scum.

So, because emp has yet to post anything of substance, it is hard to pin him as scum, except through association. I still believe that it would make alot of sense if zwet and him are scum buddies. But, emp himself is hard to pin.
If we had a cop, we wouldnt have this problem, but here we are with no cop, and a hard to read, and a less than helpful townie. something smells fishy about emp, and it would be greatly appreciated if he posts more.

Bleh, I'm starting to get convinced but I just don't want to lynch Emp based on past experience. This amounts to a policy lynch; based on what you say here Emp should be lynched in every game (which isn't necessarily untrue but it is painful). I've seen Emp get lynched for more legitimately scummy things than just his playstyle and a bad choice of wording, and still come up town every time. I think other than policy, those supporting his lynch are just trying to get information. Basically this situation is just stupid... because of Emp's playstyle there's basically no way he'll get through the game without being lynched unless we win really quickly. But he's just going to be town because he always is. The 'slip' IMO:
A) It's not really a slip because he's just being hypothetical and people are reading too much into it, and
B) Slips like that are almost never made by scum in my experience. It's probably pretty close to the scum:town ratio in any given game. Read: nulltell.

I'm almost afraid to lynch Emp first, because if he flips town, we may lose most of our leads, because they all involved Emp.

I'm aware that others have said this already, but that's just wrong. If we do, then that's actually a good thing because we can stop barking up the wrong tree with Emp. And plus, if we lynched him he'd stop posting! =P

But really, if this link was conclusive enough to lynch I'd go for Emp first I guess just because if both are town, I'd rather know Emp was town. But like I've said before I hate lynching just based on links between living players. I guess in a game with two scum we almost have to but it makes me sad =(

Although, looking back at a few of zwet's recent posts lynching him first is probably correct because he actually seems scummy.

[Cephrir]

dejkha: I feel like you're too confident in your own suspects which is making you not want to lynch Emp first.

Emp's Lynch first

He's town. All leads related to him are lost and we start anew

He's scum. Possible scum partners:

- Phail
- Giuseppe
- Zwet

So if Giuseppe is lynched first and he's scum, that's leaves 1 very likely scumpartner.

If Emp is lynched first and he's scum, that leaves 3 possible scumpartners.

If Giuseppe is town, We can still make likely connections to Emp.

One of the things I feel like you're not taking into consideration here is: what if Giuseppe is scum without Emp? You make it sound like a foregone conclusion but I really don't think it is.

If Emp is town, we start anew and that includes every one as possible scum and, I'm not an optimist, so between the useless people, lurkers, and the people that have been actively posting, I doubt we'll get both scum in time. We've only been taking in consideration the people that have been posting a good amount, but if Emp flips town, lurkers and useless posters are suspects also, so it's almost like starting from day one again.

Yes, but this is basically going to be true no matter what if Emp is town. This is my main problem with your plan. If Emp is town, we need to know that sooner rather than later so that the info we get going forward will actually be useful. If he's town we have a major problem but not finding out that we have said problem will only exacerbate the situation.

If today comes down to a choice between Emp and Giuseppe I will definitely be voting Emp. Even though I think there's a good chance they're both town and I'd prefer to explore every other option before falling back on the Emp lynch.

You're thinking too far ahead and basing too much on links between players as opposed to actual scumminess. If you were scum, especially if it were with Emp or any of your suspects, that would be a pretty good strategy and it's making me nervous.

[Cephrir]

Call this a little prophecy:

The game will not recover from an Empking lynch later than Day 2.

Unfortunately I think you're right. We're gonna have to do it today.

I'd prefer to explore every other option before falling back on the Emp lynch.

why don't you?

Fair enough. Still planning to semi-pbpa you, AT and phail (is there an active player I'm missing?) but lack of time, additional lame excuses, etc.

[Cephrir]

Where's your vote if it has to be today? Are you trying to play both sides of the argument to keep us happy and us off your back?

Why do we agree it would be unfair, and an irresponsible utility lynch, yet agree it's innevitable.

If you feel it's innevitable, vote for him and get it over with, otherwise, we should just drop it until we get better information.

Basically, my current vote would be Empking. I want to look things over before I vote because I feel like at least one of the superactive players have to be scum. ATM I'd support an Emp lynch because even though I don't really like it he's not leaving us any choice. I'm not voting yet because I want to have a chance to put some effort into this game before the day in case I somehow die or someone I had something to say about dies. I can't apologize enough for my inactivity, this isn't how I usually play. If I had been able to see how busy I'd be IRL now a month or so ago, I woulnd't have signed up for this game. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to try. I have a little time right now, maybe I'll see what I can do.

Also, @NLers: no lynch is basically always wrong. You can't say "it's better than a mislynch" because first of all, we don't know it's a mislynch, and secondly even if Emp was town lynching him would be better than not lynching just so we'd get info from his death. In before people say I'm supporting lynching townies, that's not what I said.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

Empking - 5 - Giuseppe, Zachrulez, dejkha, AndyTony, madeofphail

AndyTony - 1 - Empking

Giuseppe - 0
Grimmy - 0
dejkha - 0
zwetschenwasser - 0
Pablo Molinero - 0
Zachrulez - 0
Cephrir - 0
madeofphail - 0

Not Voting: zwetschenwasser, Cephrir, Pablo Molinero, Grimmy

With 10 players, it takes 6 to Lynch.

[Cephrir]

Super Awesome Analysis #2: AndyTony

What's the deal with Emp? It seems like we're all persecuting him for a bad history in games, but I haven't seen him do anything directly scummy just yet - - I think it would be irresponsible for us to lynch him no matter what based on popularity, it only hurts the town to have less townies (no matter how poor they articulate themselves or contribute)

Fourth post, already defending Empking. Not sure how significant this is, I'm not sure how often it crops up yet but I feel like I've seen him do this several times. It's an understandable viewpoint though I suppose especially this early on. Had you played with Emp before? (PPE: #45 answers my question)

You're making statements like this and are only hurting yourself - - you're being asked to defend yourself, take the opportunity!

I think I mentioned this before, it seems odd. Could definitely be a trying-to-look-town thing.

I'm saying we should NEVER lynch town no matter how stupid or whiny they are.

This does jibe with your recent assertion that NL > mislynches.

And I'm saying we should KEEP hiim around if he's scum, because the only thing we do know is that he's a weak player, and his weakness will either prove a poor towny, or a shitty scum that will lead us to his partner - - I don't want to lose any opportunities. If he's town, he doesn't die and town heeps higher numbers - if he's scum, we can milk him for all he's worth.

Bad logic especially since you're letting millar in on this plan. But since he wasn't scum this isn't especially relevant I guess.

My sentiment is that we try not to rush it is all...

millar is one vote away - I'm not ready to mislynch so early, it would hurt us

Okay. You've both argued your points well, and though I have my feelings toward lynching town, I suppose it is the only way to know.

gah.... I've been working on an essay and it's after midnight lol I thought I'd be coming to this board with some happy thing to read upon that didn't rack my brain more!!!

Okay. Vote: Millar13

So you say that ending a day prematurely can only be bad (which is true), then hammer millar four hours later? That's pretty odd. Makes me think you might have been overeager to move the game into night, because I thought that hammer was premature and I believe some others did too. And IMO doc is one of very few PRs for whom wanting to move to night is not a reliable tell since protecting someone isn't really that exciting. I've been a doc maybe 3 times, and choosing who to save generally just made my head hurt.

Throughout day 1, I feel like Andy might know millar is town. Just a feeling but some of his behavior I don't think can be completely be accounted for by a strong conviction that millar's town (which he later claims not to have completely had, incidentally)

I felt strongly that he was town, but enough was said in favor of him being voted that I felt the most progress would be through putting in that vote. Guiseppe and Phail had okay lines of thought.

I can't really get over the fact that you voted for someone you clearly didn't believe was scum. I suppose it was inevitable, and this jibes with your Empking vote today so I don't know if that means it's not oppurtunism, or that it is and you're just doing it again.

Notice, from the posts 14 to 23 here (pretty much the beginning of day 2) AT's viewpoint shifts slowly and his perception of millar before the lynch becomes worse and worse. The first post he makes D2, he "felt strongly that millar was town". By 19, he had 'accepted the notion that he was scum'. In post 21 he says he thought both about equally and was conflicted. In post 23 he says he was convinced by the other millar voters. Also in 23, he 'felt confident about his vote' even though he clearly said he was conflicted not long before. So in response to being pressured about his hammer he's sort of trying to change the past here. Natural reaction, or scum? I think it's suspicious.

I do NOT hammer people I think are town - PROVE that outlandish theory - I hammered MILLAR because I did not believe him to be INNOCENT.

You've probably even convinced

yourself

that you really thought millar was scum by now. I could see this slow shift being deliberate, but it's still only one real issue.

The flip from 45 to 46 from Emp to Giuseppe is awkard and, although I can't see the full thread right now, I suspect it may have been a result of gathering votes on Giuseppe and therefore oppurtunistic. This is the only reason given for the flip:

In addition to my feelings to Guiseppe - I think that it's narrow minded to kick up a fuss about basing suspicions on NK's - - They are actually VERY valuble to us. We're not supposed to ignore scum actions. If we understand why they do what they do, we can lynch them silly.

Vote: Guiseppe

He didn't clear himself up for me, and his latest post barely touched on why he was innocent, it seemed more like "why these people are more guilty" - - - the unfortunate thing about that is everyone he's saying is more guilty seem to be guilty for the exact things we brought up against him. In that most recent post, he tried to shift all the htins we have on him, onto Zach - -

Fine, but why didn't you say so earlier? Might have made this up after the fact, but an earlier post of AT's sets this up so well that I'll believe it wasn't. Also, I didn't notice that Giuseppe was doing this but you're right, and pointing out others more guilty of a crime I'm being accused of is something I've done as scum and town in two different recent games.

None of your outcomes involve the direct possibility of you being scum (unless you count us starting from square one after the possibilities die)

Well obviously no one thinks about the game including the possibility that they're scum unless they are.

I think that you have a strong desire for Emp to die, but you're keeping him on the backburner with the excuse of him being a lesser evil/possible town when that same consideration isn't being given to Guiseppe.

That's to say, you get Guiseppe killed, and have Emp to fall back on the next day for another town kill - - ultimately, that's four kills for a scum, all the while you maintain the most activity and try to make it subconscious knowledge that you're town.

I agree. dej has probably answered this already though.

We're focusing on "We have to lynch! We have to lynch"

And we're forgetting that our objective is "We have to find scum"
---------------------------------
No lynch at this very moment means we lose one towny instead of two.

I'm saying that FROM this very moment until deadline, I am STRONGLY hoping that we get evidence and a solid and responsible choice that means more to us than utility lynching.

No lynch gives the scum a free kill AND gives us NO INFO. Any lynch is better than no lynch unless they're cleared by a guaranteed sane cop.

think they (on the flipside of what you said) would be rather pleased with a mislynch and a free night kill - - two kills for them and they stay alive

Yeah but if we don't lynch, we're in the same boat tomorrow minus the opinion of one (probably obvtown) player, and potentially minus the doc. Mislynching at least removes a suspect.

AT asks lots of questions but he never does groundbreaking scumhunting. Not that I'm one to talk but I feel like he's riding on coattails a little while pulling a Giuseppe, but doing a better job of sounding like he's saying new things. And not to as great an extent. It's possible that I'm just reading things and thinking I've heard them before when it was AT who said them in the first place.

I am taking everything I find in isolated rereads with a grain of salt, because when one analyzes just one player at a time it's easy to overanalyze them and see scummy motives that aren't there because you're trying to dig up every scummy thing said player has ever done. Which is why I put Giuseppe at neutral barring a reveal of Emp's alignment, even though at the time I found him slightly scummy.

tl;dr: slightly scummy. One major issue but not really revolutionary. Definitely on my suspect list, but Emp is still the right lynch today.

BTW, I chose to do AT second because the task seemed the least daunting, XD. Not looking forward to dej (posts too much) and phail (walls of text), but I'll get to them eventually. And anyone relevant I'm missing.

PPE:

You seem troubled, yet admit you are convinced his lynch is innevitable

In a nutshell, yes. I wish we didn't have to lynch him, but we do. Partially because the game can't move forward until we do, since we'll gain a lot of info from his alignment. It's guaranteed to happen eventually, and putting it off to even more critical days is stupid. And plus, I don't think we'll be able to talk about anything else until we do it.

[Cephrir]

Also, I would probably be voting for Emp right now if I hadn't noticed he was on L-1.

[Cephrir]

A lot of what you're bringing up is the rehashing of issues people had already (both valid and invalid) - - and I have already expressed my reasoning tirelessly.

I figured that would probably be the case.

He wasn't at L-1 when you made the statement and furthermore agreed that the only choice was to lynch him - - that he could NOT live past day 2. Why make a solid statement and hide in the shadows without responsibility for it? Are you scum and know he's innocent? Do you want him to be lynched, and be able to say "hey I didn't mislynch" to one half of us, and "Hey, I agreed with you guys" to the angry voters?

Blow things out of proportion much? I still wanted to look back and see if I could find anything better, hence the lack of vote. Not voting for someone doesn't make me 'without responsibility'. Everyone's partially responsible for a lynch unless they're outright defending the target, in a way. I'm not trying to please everyone, I just don't vote often. I may very well be the one who hammers, although I tend not to end up doing that because I don't like ending days before everyone has stated that they're ready to end the day.

What did you find odd about him?

Why would you NOT bring it up the day before? Why withold?

When I said this I couldn't remember exactly what had bugged me which is why I made a fairly large post about him a couple pages ago, which everyone ignored.

Also, you want a specific question? How about this since either I completely missed your explanation or you stopped reading my post after you decided it was all things that had already been brought up. Why is it that you've been constantly changing your story about what you thought of millar before you hammered him? At the beginning of the day you said you'd been pretty sure he was town, and you've been saying you were less and less sure when you were attacked over it. Which is it?

[Cephrir]

I've always answered my questions fully and don't have a problem with them because they always shed a little bit more light on innocence and guilt - that being said, is everybody honestly satisfied with the responses I've been given by Ceph?

He's been lurking, popping up and down from the radar, people pleasing, and now he's sitting on the fence trying not to have responsibility for the things he says.

...Really? I just got done explaining how I'm not doing this. Tell me how I'm wrong or shut up. I am not fence sitting in any way, I've made my position pretty damn clear by this point and I thought you were finally getting it. Maybe I'll be a little blunter and that will help, even though I thought I was speaking simply enough already. I SUPPORT LYNCHING EMPKING. IT TOOK ME A WHILE TO COME TO TERMS WITH THIS BUT I HAVE ACCEPTED IT. Is that clear enough for ya?

[Cephrir]

Mop - Why are you voting me?

This is not a claim. Try again.

[Cephrir]

@dej: Do you have any suspicions of me other than a gut feeling?

[Cephrir]

dej has been completely useless and unhelpful and nasty.

Vote: zwet

More of a placeholder than anything, but... really?

Relevant post later.

[Cephrir]

zwetschenwasser 7 (everyone else)
dejkha 1 (zwetschenwasser)

zwetschenwasser has been lynched. He was not helpful, mafia-aligned.

[Cephrir]

Clearly, no.

[Cephrir]

Cephir was still noticably absent from the emp lynch, and I think this was done purposely.

If you'd care to respond to what I've already said on that subject, feel free.

Zach seems to be flying onto the wagons of people he would know are townie, and so did phial. (see my above arguement about Dej, because this applies to them as well)

How are they more guilty of this than any random player who's been on a townie lynch?

Also, I have no idea how you can possibly agree that dej is useless. He's like the most active and useful player in the game.

Zwet still needs to die and should stop refusing to help himself.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir seems to be not really posting much, or at least not frequently. Besides the AndyTony analysis, he just kinda posts things like "Emp needs to die", "Zwet needs to die", ect.

Yeah, I've found that on the days when I don't have a ton of time to contribute (which is most of them lately, for some reason), that's the best and most useful thing I can really do.

[Cephrir]

This is now my only game, should be able to concentrate. Relevant post ASAP (for real this time).

[Cephrir]

I'm going on vacation tomorrow with limited access (until the Tuesday after next) so I feel obligated to say something relevant first.

Zach

Spends a large portion of Day 1 passively supporting millarwagon. Keeps his random vote (I assume) on millar as he gets run up. First truly relevant post:

It's just that reading those two quotes gave me the impression that he might know Millar is town, and is distancing himself from the lynch. (IMO, a millar lynch is inevitable. He's claimed scum, and pointed out his top doc suspect.)

I get weary of people who don't vote when they throw out bad town excuses, but pave the way for a "reluctant" vote later.

Right on target, I didn't bother quoting the AT quotes he's referring to but this is precisely one of the biggest problems I have with Andy.

15: Points out another instance of Andy's apparent certainty that millar is town. This one's an even better example, he's trying to make an argument for potentially keeping millarscum alive but continually implying he knows millar will flip town.

16: Votes Andy for contradictions and the fishy millar hammer. This is entirely consistant with what Zach has said previously.

27:

Did you actively avoid the bandwagon as scum so that you could name off everyone on Millar's bandwagon and say OMG scum is on the wagon?

This looks scummy to me. It's also the kind of argument you can use to blend yourself as town, cause you can go back and say, "The wagon was scum driven and Look, I wasn't on the wagon."

This is a response to Pablo's accusation of the entire millar wagon. Again, good logic, still not having a problem with Zach. He is a little light on content through this point but, y'know, I can't complain.

34: Votes Empking for an apparent slip. Suspicions of Andy appearing to drop off the face of the earth. But it comes back a couple posts later...

His interactions with Pablo imply to me that Pablo would not be a very good kill fromthe perspective of Zachscum. It just doesn't make any sense, Pablo would have made a great lategame target for Zach based on this.

48: Backpedaling a bit on supporting the Empwagon but it is backed up by previous posts somewhat. I get a town vibe from this post.

Not dropping it. I will explain my suspicions, do analysis, and help the town as best as I can. Like I said, I hate this game, and am getting quickly fed up with the one liner back and forths that are 10-20 posts long that don't motivate me to read the few content posts within the fighting that doesn't help anything at all. Everytime I make an effort to try to understand what is going on, there's a whole new barrage of posts to go through. It's very frustrating. (I do have other games that don't even come CLOSE to this pace.)

Extremely frustrated-townie-esque IMO.

51: Doesn't want to lynch zwet because of the precedent of the preceding two lynches (players who all but lynch themselves and turn up town). Within a couple posts he gets a bit PO'd at zwet and notices that his Emp hammer contradicts his constant suspicions of dej D2 and votes for him. Fair enough.

Yeah, I don't see any problems here. I doubt any connections to Andy, in particular. However, he has almost completely ignored most of the living players which hypothetically could make him a good scumbuddy for any of them. At the very least I doubt I'll be voting for Zach today, certainly not until a scum has died and even then it would take some convincing for me.

Phail

Ugh, I've been dreading this analysis for weeks. Here goes.

Contradiction: Millar13 states that self-voting is a scumtell, then says it is helpful.

Self-voting is never useful to your faction. Millar13 is encouraging self-voting to the common faction,which is town. In conclusion post 17 is encouraging anti-town acts, and is therefore anti-town.

First post and he's already acting super-logical. Obviously it's a playstyle thing but it's weird.

It seems to be a consensus that empking should be lynched through meta. I say Nyet. The guy hasnt said two words on the post. We have no evidence to prove that he is scum in this game. A townie, no matter how anti-town is still a mislynch. We shouldn't use his meta in this game.

Against lynching Emp based on meta. Lynching Emp wasn't a serious possibility yet IMO despite the large number of votes he got early, but this is more of that playstyle thing. And I'm not going to bother quoting further instances, but they're constant.

Alright, this post is getting way too long with the post, so im gunna cut it short here and summarize it as best I can. Rofl was pointing the gun at emp, then identified giiuseppe and zwet as scum buddies. Giuseppe gets nervous and starts counterattacking.

Rofl was on to something, I believe that this was the reason that the scum killed him. This, along with Dejkha's massive post, seems like a good enough reason to think that giuseppe is scum. Vote: Giuseppe

Extraordinarily WIFOMy, but based on the fact that he's a Goon and has 41 posts in this game this must be his first, so that's excusable. An argument could be made that this is intentional but I don't believe that. Even as scum he wouldn't know better so this isn't a tell.

It is my belief that the mafia will do a couple of things during the day.

Their main objectives will be:
1). Stop the Town from lynching them during the day.

They can accomplish this through a couple of ways (I'm only listing a few because I do not know all of them.)
1). Bandwagoning to make a quick lynch (although with the 2 votes when it takes 7 to lynch D1 makes it kinda hard for them to quick lynch).
2). Framing someone to make a mislynch.
3). Reducing suspicion on them to the point where the town will lynch anybody except them, which will cause a mislynch.

Possibly a bit too much insight into the scum mindset especially for a raw newbie (which btw shocks me), but AndyTony is a much worse offender in that category so I'm inclined to categorize this as slight.

So, because emp has yet to post anything of substance, it is hard to pin him as scum, except through association. I still believe that it would make alot of sense if zwet and him are scum buddies. But, emp himself is hard to pin.
If we had a cop, we wouldnt have this problem, but here we are with no cop, and a hard to read, and a less than helpful townie.

+1 town point.

Noteworthily, in 22 he thinks Emp/zwet is the most likely scumpair but two posts later has changed his mind and thinks Emp is town.

And, I can't even finish this. The one thing that really sticks out to me with what I've seen so far and the impression I've gotten from phail throughout the game is that he's very preoccupied with ensuring that all his statements can be backed up with almost perfect logic. Especially at the beginnning. Is this a specific, intentional defense mechanism for a new-ish scum who is afraid of getting caught in lies or craplogic? I don't know and I wish he had a meta I could use as a comparison. dej's suspicions of phail have some merit as well, I'm sure I didn't touch on all the points he's made. I'm flip-flopping on him at this point.

As for dejkha, since I haven't done him yet. He's almost beyond suspicion for me at this point, he just seems like glaringly obvious town. I'll look through his posts at some point to make certain I'm not just crazy, but throughout the game I've gotten the impression that he's been the most useful and active scumhunter. The only reason I have to question him is the simple question: why isn't he dead yet? Do the scum disagree with me, or am I completely wrong? I don't want to leave theoretical dejscum with a free pass here, but honestly at this point I think that if dej is scum, he pretty much wins and deserves it, so why bother thinking about it.

I've got to go back and see what dissuaded me from thinking Andy was likely scum yesterday, because I know I found some things that now I'm thinking are especially scummy by comparison to what I'm not finding on other players. At this point he's probably my top suspect. And honestly his Zach/phail theory doesn't make much sense to me either, and it completely disregards Pablo's death (and Pablo/Zach interactions are most of the case). It also has nothing to do with phail... is there an earlier suspicion there that I missed? Or are you just hopping on the general suspicion of phail that I think more than one player has expressed? Unfortunately there aren't a lot of connections between any living players that I can see and most of us haven't come under serious attack by other living players so I can't really come up with especially likely pairs. I think we'll likely end up looking more for what isn't there than what is.

Also, Grimmy. There's no way in hell to get scumtells on him, he never says anything no matter what his alignment is ever. But the fact that I'm not seeing obvious scum and don't even have more than one solid suspect makes me think he's a fairly likely scum.

I would consider making a vote but I don't want my vote hanging in one place for over a week in what's probably LyLo.

[Cephrir]

I guess you missed the many times where he unvotes because he's supposedly found many flaws in his posts and reasons...

Fair enough.

Zach 682: so posting is scummy? =P

I dont see much on dej in that post but what there is is probably wrong, no tiime to read it >.>

But Andy case is good I guess. Apologies for the lame comments, Im only skimming.

Also, posting too much is protown.

[Cephrir]

We have an even number and no investigative roles, and the doc has not claimed, so NL is correct. Normally I´d say it was a bad idea to say anything about suspects to avoid helping the scum pick someone to kill who´s unlikely to vote with them, but it´s a bit late for that now. So I´ll say tht I´m looking at Andy and Phail or Grimmy. Phail wasn´t a huge suspect until pretty recently when he started spouting this dej and lurker scumpair thing, which is silliness. Maybe I´m misreading that but I don´t have time to make sure. I´d prefer not to end the day until I get back in case I get killed.

Also, it may be more like 4-29 that I post because it´ll be extremely late when I get in.

[Cephrir]

I´m the doctor, and I have just witnessed a rather bad fakeclaim.

I´ve saved dejkha every night. On the first night I managed to WIFOM myself out of protecting roflcopter, I knew he´s a pretty good player but I thought he looked bad enough after the millar lynch that I didn´t have to protect him yet. Dej´s opposition to lynching millar sounded genuine and I figured someone off the wagon would probably be the target. Nights 2 and 3 I just figured he´s been obvtown, I´ve been frustrated that the scum apparently don´t agree but after N1 I´ve been afraid of WIFOMing myself out of the correct save again.

I find phail´s attack on dej even more hilarious now, maybe he thinks that everyone else will decide to believe him because scum wouldn´t do something that stupid.

Side note: Doc should never out himself in this game. He/she is the only pro-town power role in this game (or power role at all for that matter). If he/she reveals himself/herself that practically assures that person to be nightkilled.
We do not want the doctor to die. The doctor helps us. The scum want to kill the doctor. Thus, it could be said that attempts to root out the doctor are anti-town.

This was me protecting my ass D1. A vanilla townie stating this would be redundant.[/quote]
No, it would be a perfectly reasonable statement. I don´t see how stating the obvious would prove you´re the doc or why you´d think it would, but either way I see you´ve apparently changed your tune since then.

Granted, even if my no-lynch goes through,and the scum believe me, me getting nk'd wont matter in the slightest, but it will clear you guys of one suspect, so I have no regrets about this.
Furthermore, Even If for once I was smart and protected correctly, we'd be in the same situation today, so it wouldn't really help.

So as far as I'm concerned, being a doctor at this point doesnt mean diddly squat, other than innocence, and a very poor job of protecting.

Obviously it means plenty, you idiot. A doc save could give us an extra day and by outing me you´ve prevented that possibility which is exactly why you did it, and you know that perfectly well

I´m sure you probably think you were a likely lynch target for today, and certainly moreso than your partner. That makes me think you´re paired with Andy or dej, they seem the least likely lynches to me. If it was dej then you were doing an admirable job of distancing with crappy baseless attacks on him. Andy´s probably your partner though. IMO the more likely lynches just became clearly town as did Grimmy because if you were scum with him he´d be the one faking doc, probably.

I love how phail spends the majority of the claim post talking like he´s not the doctor. I guess he´s just no good at getting himself in the mindset he´s claiming to have =P

Your "logic" for giving up on no lynch sucks, you´re just impatient scum and you wanted to know who the doc is. I stated before that I supported nolynch, I just didn´t want to vote while on vacation in case something like this came up that would make me not want to end the day yet. And you cant use dej as an excuse because he clearly supported it. In fact until you did something stupid there obviously would have been no lynch today, you just realized that your chances were better if you tried claiming now because you´re afraid of getting docpwned and you don´t want the odd number to come up. And now you have to support your decision with stupid logic.

And of course, I think it should be abundantly clear to anyone with an inkling of sense that a doc wouldn´t voluntarily claim in this situation.

Die scum die.

Vote: Phail

Although there may still be reason to NL, I don´t feel like thinking about it ATM.

[Cephrir]

Wow, I can't believe how quick and effective that was. But it was a good opportunity and I knew it'd work so I took it. Phail, as newbies go I think you're actually very good. You've just made a few mistakes due to inexperience, don't worry about it. Some well established players are worse. I have to agree with your assessment that I was basically a total dick in this game, and much as I'd like to say I lurked on purpose, I didn't. I hate lurking as a strategy and I'm ashamed that it worked to my advantage here. I usually love scum roles, I don't know why I've been disinterested lately. Need a break or something. Also, we would have done way worse without the townies who lynched themselves, we hardly had to do anything. Good game, everyone.

[Cephrir]

Oh yeah, it was a bit disappointing that Andy and I didn't get to go after each other. But we were just so far ahead that it wasn't necessary.