Open 124 (2:10 Bugs Bunny -- GAME OVER) before 761

[dejkha]

Vote: Empking

[dejkha]

Vote: millar13

Reason:
Millar13 said in post 6:

Hate people that self vote.

Often a trait of either someone with a power-role or mafia.

Therefore.

Vote: Grimmy

Millar13 said in post 17:

However, voting for yourself is never a good stance in Day one. Can often be effective in the day 3 though.

Contradiction: Millar13 states that self-voting is a scumtell, then says it is helpful.

Self-voting is never useful to your faction. Millar13 is encouraging self-voting to the common faction,which is town. In conclusion post 17 is encouraging anti-town acts, and is therefore anti-town.

There is no contradiction. He gave different situations. But in any case, I am curious to hear how self voting can be helpful.

[dejkha]

Have you played with Emp before? If so, then it should be obvious. If not, I'm sure it'll only be a matter of time before you find out why.

[dejkha]

someone on a game I was briefly in, told me the best person to follow in day on is a guy called zwetchenwasser...and seeing as I am now in a game with hm

Unvote Vote: Empking

had to be done

That person lied. But it's never a bad idea to vote Emp, so I guess it's acceptable this time.

[dejkha]

Have you played with Emp before? If so, then it should be obvious. If not, I'm sure it'll only be a matter of time before you find out why.

Once in Open 120... but I was lynched so fast in that game, that I never really got a chance to interact with anyone much at all.

Well, I'd love to go into detail about the giant sack of uselessness that is Empking, but you probably wouldn't believe me, so I'll let him show you himself.

[dejkha]

Damn. Why do people unvote Emp? Do you all realize you're crushing my hopes and dreams?

[dejkha]

you are wrong. and in this setup, its especially a good idea to say who you think is pro town. if enough townspeople agree on the same person being town, it almost forces the mafia's nightkill, because there is zero chance of that person being mislynched. and hey, look what the only power role we have is?

Oh wow, that's a very good point. Didn't think of that

lets hurry up and lynch the guy

Agree'd

[dejkha]

grimmy and zachrules are town

Why do you say that?

[dejkha]

preview screen is your friend.

i'll make all the hard statements i want thank you very much.

Oh I see. It's an Emp impression. Got it.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

Empking - 3 - roflcopter, dejkha, Cephrir
millar13 - 3 - Zachrulez, madeofphail, Giuseppe

Grimmy - 2 - Grimmy, Empking

zwetschenwasser - 0
Pablo Molinero - 0
Giuseppe - 0
dejkha - 0
Zachrulez - 0
Cephrir - 0
roflcopter - 0
AndyTony - 0
madeofphail - 0

Not Voting: Pablo Molinero, AndyTony, zwetschenwasser, millar13

With 12 players, it takes 7 to Lynch.

[dejkha]

I really think Millar is lying. So I'm not totally ok with that lynch. Normally I'd assume pressure caused him to crack, but he wasn't in danger of being lynch, was he? I'm gonna assume he's just pissed that people are voting for him...

I have the worst feeling that if he is town, he's probably doc. Or maybe a townie that's upset that he didn't get a power role. In any case, I don't think he's telling the truth and lying about his alignment isn't something I'm gonna vote for (assuming I'm right, anyway).

[dejkha]

i'm sorry, are you actually going to try and prove anything, or are you just going to tell us a bedtime story?

Obviously, he doesn't care if he's lynch. That's why he claimed scum.

[dejkha]

You, sir, are an an absolutely abominable atrocity and the acme of assholery. Don't screw the town over with your ludicrous self-votes. If you're town, prove it. Otherwise, you deserve to die.

Can you prove that you're town? Or should we kill you also?

[dejkha]

Then dig yourself out. Why are you innocent? Who are the real scum?

God, those are silly questions. Yes, I said silly.

[dejkha]

Vote: dejkha

I'm digging the Heroes avatar!

Wow, that came out of nowhere. Care to explain?

[dejkha]

Like what? I don't see anything wrong with them...

[dejkha]

Millar's at L-1 right now.

[dejkha]

Andy, you didn't have a vote active. Just letting you know. Millar is still at L-1.

[dejkha]

- - sorry for not answering the question - - I wanted to keep him around because he's without a doubt a poor player - which means if he's scum, he can lead us to other scum - I wouldn't keep him around strictly for being scum lol

I could understand that, but Scum can talk and night. Kill off one and there's one scum that needs to make decisions on his own.

[dejkha]

EBWOP: at night* not "and night"

[dejkha]

I'm wondering if you just know he'll turn up town, which seems like a pretty outlandish theory to me at this point. He's claimed scum.

It seems like a pretty outlandish theory to think that's he's scum just because he claim this early for no reason, when he was obviously pissed from everyone getting on him.

Hypothetical situation: Millar is scum, he suspects a player of being the doc, and tries to tell him scum buddy his opinion of the best target before he gets lynched. [/hypothetical]

I identified outing a pro-town power role as a scumtell, yet he still performed this detrimental act to the town, further identifying himself as scum.

The hypothetical could happen, but the only problem is that there was no reason for him to suspect anyone of being Doc, let alone Ceph who didn't have very many posts at the time, and was the newest person on Millars wagon when the statement was made, which hints at an aggravated player.

Millar is scum, but his usefulness as a source has run itself out. My proof is his last couple of posts:

Well, aren't we glad to see we have one person that knows who is and isn't scum. But unfortunately, his last couple posts are not proof and your hypothetical doesn't help your case. In fact, it helps scum, because if Millar is scum you pretty much just helped him to make a decision regarding what they should do with Millar.

All I've seen from Millar are the obvious actions of a pissed off player.

I, for one, am almost certain Millar isn't scum and at this point there's not a lack of other info to go by during the events that have been leading up to his lynch. So if he's not lynched today, we could still use a lot of what has been posted regarding this issue (same for Day 2 if he is lynched).

[dejkha]

EBWOP: In fact, it helps scum, because if Millar is scum you pretty much just helped

his scum buddy

to make a decision regarding what they should do with Millar.

Sorry, that might've been hard to understand

[dejkha]

@dejkha: So, you expect me to believe that a player would randomly claim someone is a doc, highlighting this person to the mafia,(possibly trying to out the doc?) and be a townie?

Can you rephrase that? I cant make sense out of it starting at "highlighting".

Dochunting is what scum would do. Not town. This makes me almost 100% sure that he is scum.

No, I think you just want him to be lynched because he's an easy target. Either that or you're just not open to suggestion and don't care about other options. He wasn't dochunting and the obvious random doc claiming makes it obvious. There's no reason for most, if not all, of his actions.

If he flips scum, ok you were right and as such I shouldn't be giving him the BoDT, but if you're wrong I can/will see this as very opportunistic (especially since you claim to be 100% sure).

[dejkha]

I'll be rereading the thread and posting later.

Andy, I don't think you're scummy for hammer, but don't argue with Emp. It's a fight you can't win. But that's only because ignorance is

bliss

,

retarded

, Empking. So wait until someone else has an opinion on the matter.

Vote: Emp

unless I find someone scummier in my reread.

[dejkha]

The post that started millars wagon at first. The following is on Zach, but note that I don't find him particularly scummy. These points may be reaching a little, but that's because I'm exploring all possibilities I can see. Everyone else can make of it what they will.

The events in between the following two post take place between post 6 and post 11:

Hate people that self vote.

Often a trait of either someone with a power-role or mafia.

Therefore.

Vote: Grimmy

Zach votes millar because of this:

Your reasoning is unsound.

That's as far as Zach went with his reasoning. Even after Millar pointed out that it was just like saying "I vote for you, because", which I would agree with, he never elaborate in how it was "unsound" in the post where he said it was so. He later responded in post 29 by saying

Now... we only have 1 power role in this game, and it's a doctor. I see potential doc hunting with his pursuit of this vote.

Knowing what we know now, Millar was not doc hunting, but I'm curious as to how Zach didn't think Grimmy self voting was at all suspicious. I would think that a self vote would more likely be done by scum than anyone else, possibly to throw people off, so I don't see why he thought to go for millar right away rather than Grimmy, who he made no mention of. But seeing how Grimmy plays, it was probably was just a joke.

MadeofPhail

Vote: millar13

Reason:
Millar13 said in post 6:

Hate people that self vote.

Often a trait of either someone with a power-role or mafia.

Therefore.

Vote: Grimmy

Millar13 said in post 17:

However, voting for yourself is never a good stance in Day one. Can often be effective in the day 3 though.

Contradiction: Millar13 states that self-voting is a scumtell, then says it is helpful.

Self-voting is never useful to your faction. Millar13 is encouraging self-voting to the common faction,which is town. In conclusion post 17 is encouraging anti-town acts, and is therefore anti-town.

There's a couple things i don't like about this post:

1. The contradiction is nowhere to be found as he seemed to ignore the parts that made them non contradicting statements. Those parts being where he said how days where self voting is preformed can have different effects (ex: day 1 and day 3)

2. I think to say "Self-voting is never useful to your faction" is quite a bit false. And if it were to help anyone, I think it would be scum. Possibly to give they're scumbuddy a reason why he wasn't on the wagon if that person was lynched. In fact, I think the only way self-voting useless is if you're town. Town has nothing to hide; Scum do, so they'll use it to help their scumbuddies win.

3. Post 17 was encouraging an act that could be useful during later days. We're not their yet and I don't see why him giving an opinion on what's useful in 2 days makes him scummy.

Giuseppe

I think Giuseppe isn't really giving to much original input. He seems to be rephrasing what others have said and being very opportunistic.

On Millar's behavior: I too agree that self-voting doesn't indicate anything other than a comical or self-destructive attempt at discussion-sparking this early in the game. It's simply not good play, nothing else is really associated with it.

Here he pretty much rephrases, in short, what others have said.

Unvote

Vote Millar13

What were you thinking putting him on L-1?

Not saying much, but it looks like an easy way to get on the millar wagon early and with a decent reason. Even though, since Emp was at L-1, the next vote would've been a hammer and a quicklynch could've given use some nice stuff to work nice, especially whoever swung the hammer.

A quick lynch is a stupid lynch, even if it is Empking. Hell, especially if it's Emp. I mean, come on. He's scummy. We know that. But quick-lynching him for stuff we know is stupid.

Trying to seem pro-town by being against the quicklynch of Emp, which, if he's scum, could also help him by keeping a naturally scummy player alive. Scum are more than likely against an Emp lynch since he's more useful to them then he is to us and Giuseppe seem to be one of the only ones finding reasons to keep him from getting lynched. Or maybe he's just protecting a scumbuddy, since Emp is easy to defend without looking suspicious because all you have to do is say how "he's scummy, but he could be a townie".

if emp is scum, either giuseppe or zwets is his partner

Any real reason you're setting me and Zwet up to be lynched? I hardly say that stopping a quick lynch of Empking qualifies as defending him overtly. Let him actually have a chance to be scummy before you lynch him, at the very least.

Maybe the wording is throwing me off, but it sounds like he knows Emp is scum by saying "Any real reason you're setting me and Zwet up to be lynched". He says to let Emp have a chance to be scummy before you lynch him. Judging from previous posts, he knows how Emp plays and knows that it's near impossible to tell the difference when it comes to his alignment, almost urging people not to vote him for as long as possible. The problem is, the longer he's alive, the longer scum can use him.

wow I admit i am scum....vote for me

Unvote

Vote: Millar13

Don't claim scum if you don't mean it. Lynch all scum, lynch all liars.

I know a few people voted for millar for this reason, but given what I've seen from Giuseppe, this looks opportunistic. Then he says "Don't claim scum, if you don't mean it" almost as it he knows 100% that he's scum just because he said so. As if you're not even willing to see if there's another reason to say he was. And saying "Lynch all scum, lynch all liars" makes it seem like you're trying to be open minded, but saying that says you want him lynched whether he's scum or town and it'll give you a good reason to lynch a townie - because he was lying.

He later asks millar:

Millar, why did you say you were scum?

This also makes it seem like he's trying to be open minded, even though it shouldn't matter why Millar said he was scum since Giuseppe is going to want him lynched either way as seen before: "Lynch all scum, lynch all liars".

By your logic, if Empking comes up scum, I can't be town. Which couldn't be true, from my perspective, because I am a pro-town player. Thus, if I'm to agree with you, Empking must be town.

I'm actively trying to prevent the lynch of someone I don't believe to be scum, by first walking away from his lynch, and now arguing against it.

Is there anymore in me defending him on such little than you attacking him on such little? Better to err on the side of caution this early than to err on the side of rashness.

Here Giuseppe seems to try and make it look like Rofl is saying.. well, the entire first part of this his post. And in post 96, Rofl asked where he said that, which he didn't. Maybe trying to misrepresent Rofl.

Then dig yourself out. Why are you innocent? Who are the real scum?

That's not a very good reason to do such a risky move. Were you defending another scum partner?

What the hell kind of questions are those? Seriously. As you can see, even after Millar explains why he claimed scum, Giuseppe still assumes he's scum and actually asks if Millar was defending a scum partner. He asks that almost as if he really thought he would say "yes".

Well, I stand by the idea that he needs to defend himself, and a good start would be to explain his actions in taking the scum claim. I still think he's scum, but you know, there's no point in letting his opinions go to waste if he dies and flips town.

Out of curiosity, what opinions of his have their been that could help us now? Since he flipped town, he was obviously just pissed off, which I'm baffled at how many people failed to realize that before he was lynched.

Vote: Giuseppe

[dejkha]

Fair enough. I haven't seen a self vote in RVS in any of my games, so I wouldn't know. Maybe I'll do a meta on you just to make sure

[dejkha]

Oh you have and I remember, but I'm referring to self votes in the RVS. When I saw you self hammer, you were at L-1.

[dejkha]

So dejkha, if i understand correctly your accusation of giuseppe is based on these things.
1). he does not really post any real material, he just kinda leeches off of other people's arguments.
2). he was opportunistic about voting millar

I would say so, yes.

On the matter of the mislynch on D1:

If I were an optimist (which I am not). I would say to look on the bright side and say that we would see the mislynch of millar as a utility lynch. This means that while we did not lynch scum, we lynched an anti-town (or similarly useless) player.

I voted for millar because I thought he was scum, you voted for emp because you thought he was a bad player dejkha argued that millar was town and was just being a bad player. So if we were to look at that way, millar and emp are in the same classification or players. Yet, dejkha defended millar, and condemned empking.

I don't understand why you would do something like that.

I voted for Emp as my first vote because he's naturally the scummiest player at the beginning of every game he's in, so I just vote him right then and there until I find someone scummier.

Day one pretty much revolved around Millars actions, so it was hard to find someone that was acting scummy, especially after he claimed scum, without knowing his role for sure.

To me, they aren't in the same classification of players as far as I can tell. I haven't played with Millar before, so all I can say for him is that he doesn't thrive well under pressure. Emp is incapable of helping town and is extremely close minded. I'm aware of how threatening to town Emp is, but seeing how quickly Millar was lynched, I can't see what kind of player he really is.

[dejkha]

Nicely done, Phail. I made a possible connection of Emp and Giuseppe, but I didn't look that deep, so that could be a huge find for this game. As of now, I'll be willing to bet Emp and Giuseppe are likely scumbuddies if the first one lynched flips scum.

[dejkha]

@Dejkha
Your concerns are valid and I agree with you, I just think it might have landed wrong. I feel Zwet is the one following herds and not necessarily contributing outside of people pleasing.
Day 1 - he followed the wagon on Emp
Day2 - he made the comment to fit in with the herd of voters about how "millar had to go"
Then he sided with Emp when he smelled a wagon - and the moment you and maybe two others raised an eyebrow to it - he shyed away from siding with Emp.

People pleasing strikes me as scummy. Thoughts?

I don't find the "millar had to go" comment particularly crowd pleasing. Don't know why, I just don't. All I've seen from Zwet toward Emp on Day 2 is him getting pissed at Emp for the annoyance that he is. Can you be specific on where he sided with Emp and where he backed off?

[dejkha]

All I 've seen is this:

Emp, cut out the active lurking crap and you've got yourself a good case.

Which was his response to Emp case that pretty much only consisted of you hammering. I hardly think that alone is a good case, but I don't think Zwet necessarily backed away as much as it hasn't been brought up since then.

Zwet, do you still agree with Emp's "case"?

[dejkha]

I disagree.

I know from playing with him in other games that he is a very good player.

I have also seen where the scum would target one townie in order to make another townie look guilty.

fos: Phail

I suspect that is what you are doing if you are really scum.
not convinced, but suspicious.

Grimmy

Phail was my initial suspect at the end of day one, but I've since seen more suspicious activity from Giuseppe. If Giuseppe flips towns, then I agree that Phail may have done what you described.

[dejkha]

Can you please explain why at this point in the game, you have such a signature still? It slightly contradicts the fair nature I appreciate from you, you understand.

It's my signature, so it shows up in every post I make in every game. It's not specific to this game.

Why, based on your sig, do you know Emp is 100% worthy of being lynched (not necessarily scum, which is worse)? What is that based on in this game? How is losing another towny best for the town, and if he is not town, then why?

Emp has to be lynched. When judging his own play, he's unreadable. Meaning, he could be scum and we wouldn't be able to tell because he's known for being scummy (and for his constant OMGUS and him being distracting and confusing to town). It would be irresponsible and dangerous to let him live the whole game. The earlier the better. He plays the same way every game, so I don't judge him specifically in each game unless, by some miracle, he does something different. His lynch isn't a matter of 'if', it's a matter of 'when'. I've said this in other games, so it's not specific to this one.

[dejkha]

Read post 270. That'll answer your question.

[dejkha]

@Dejkha
In regards to my earlier portions of the post, what are your thoughts about Grimmy in respect to your feelings on self voting. It might be irresponsible to just give him a clean "oh well" - I think it deserves attention (Grimmy, I'm not saying you're a threat or trying to grill you, I just don't want to cancel out any potential topics of value)
Also, if Emp is a matter of "when", why does your vote fall on Guiseppe more so than him? Guiseppe is a victim of what seems to be circumstance (for what you regard as just re-typing more or less what everyone else says).

I'm not giving a Grimmy a pass on it, I just don't have much more to say about it other than it seems like something scum is more likely to do.

Emp is a matter a 'when' and that when isn't now, it's later. Lynching Giuseppe could be a huge move for town. Emp can very well be connected to Phail or Giuseppe. If Giuseppe is scum, then Emp has a good chance at being scum. If Giuseppe is town, then Phail may have the connection to Emp because of my previous suspicions and what Grimmy. But if we lynch Emp first and he flips scums, then we still have two likely people who could be his scumbuddy.

Lynching Giuseppe gives us more answers, and a better chance at winning, than lynching Emp does. As of right now that is.

[dejkha]

1. My treatment of Millar was in the hopes of drawing useful information out of an erratic player who was heading towards a lynch. If he claimed a scum buddy, got lynched, flipped scum, that would have been good, no?

It's more of what Andy said yesterday. Millar was a threat to himself, not town, or whatever faction he was on. He didn't care if he was lynched and it's extremely rare that scum will claim and truthfully give up their scumbuddy. From the moment he self voted, it should've been clear that we weren't getting anymore out of him.

2. While I can't argue that lynching me would reveal more information about the game than lynching Empking, I'd argue that basing that decision strictly on my defense of him would be a poor choice to make. I'm no fan of Empking, but I don't like seeing him lynched on policy, and Millar was behaving worse than Emp was. Lynch the most anti-town player.

I wouldn't say it's entirely based on your defense on Emp alone, because you're not the first I've seen that's been against his lynch. You seem to repeat what people say, which may be due to the time in which you read the game and it's after everyone else has said everything there is to say, but your defense of Emp as a scumbuddy is supported by the NK. I'll be willing to bet that at least one scum is in the triangle made up of you, Phail and Emp.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

AndyTony - 2 - Empking, Zachrulez
Giuseppe - 2 - dejkha, madeofphail

Empking - 0
Grimmy - 0
dejkha - 0
zwetschenwasser - 0
Pablo Molinero - 0
Zachrulez - 0
Cephrir - 0
madeofphail - 0

Not Voting: zwetschenwasser, millar13, AndyTony, Giuseppe, roflcopter, Cephrir, Pablo Molinero, Grimmy

With 10 players, it takes 6 to Lynch.

[dejkha]

AT: Why are you trying to get Dejhka to move his vote?

What, specifically, made you think that's what he was doing?

[dejkha]

If you're not against Guiseppe, then why would you have a problem with me asking Dejkha for clarification?

No, I think it's just called "Emp stupidity" or maybe "scared scum". Who knows. Definitely one of the other.

[dejkha]

Andy, don't bother with him. He's like a brain dead horse if it could talk.

[dejkha]

Alright Andy, have a good one. Thanks for stopping the argument short. It's that much less Emp spam I'll have to reread later.

[dejkha]

Alright Andy, have a good one. Thanks for stopping the argument short.

Lie/Buddying

It's that much less Emp spam I'll have to reread later.

Just typical stupidf Dejhka.

^Just typical dumb shit Emp. You need to be taught a lessen in the form of your abusive parents.

[dejkha]

You said earlier

I mean, come on. He's scummy. We know that. But quick-lynching him for stuff we know is stupid.

The reasons I was voting for him was based on past game experience which came to the following and more that you didn't mention (which he has also done in this game):

his behavior at this point in the game has derailed proper discussion, been inflammatory to at least one of the parties involved

He does it every game and you seemed be aware of it by saying "He's scummy. We know that". What made you think he would change in this game rather than any other one he's ever played? Was it just me or were other people voting Emp at first based on past experience with him that included the reasons Giuseppe had given? I'd actually like to hear from people that voted Emp at the beginning.

Dejkha's been conveniently leaving out the fact that at that time, I had no read on Emp's alignment. I was defending him from a Quick Lynch, not from any lynch. I'm actually going to advocate for his lynch further down in the post, as I've seen his scumminess within this game.

You've played with Emp before, so since you said "he's scummy" at the beginning of the game, how is he scummy and how does it differ from the reasons you're voting for him and your experience with him from other games?

Did you really just try and use the NK as a piece of evidence against me? Isn't that WIFOM out the wazoo? That sits really ill with me that you'd try to devise the motives of the scum out of the night action. Not to mention that I was defending Empking against the quick lynch, not a real lynch.

I used the NK as support for the reasons Phail mentioned. But like I said, Phail was my initial suspect on Day one, so if you flip town then I'll bet Phail was describing his own actions to frame you.

When a person claims scum, is it not right to vote them? I had no suspects before, and then I had one. Opportunism, or simply a wanting to put forth original material on someone who I thought was scum?

In the end, a lot of Dej's argument against me lies in twisting my motive: I was defending Emp from a quick lynch, not a total lynch. I was not acting sheep-like in the case against Millar, as I started it.

I don't think I said you were just rephrasing everything that people were saying about Emp and Millar. And my problem with you voting for Millar wasn't that you followed the wagon, nor do I think I said so, but that you said it in a way that would persuade people to lynch him without question by saying "Lynch all scum, lynch all liars" which to me sounds like saying "Lynch him with no questions asked".

I'm not trying to use word play or something, but while you did say you were against a quick lynch, you never said anything to make clear that you'd be willing to lynch him and I assumed you didn't want to since Emp never changes his scummy play and you should know it.

Since you voted Emp, it'll only reinforce your connection to him if you flip scum because it would be seen as obvious distancing.

[dejkha]

Just out of curiosity, how old are you, Emp?

In other news, I don't want an Empking lynch to be solely a policy one. He hasn't make specific scummy statements, and therefore shouldn't be lynched yet.

Emp, make sure you're truthful about your age, because the older you say you are, the worse it'll look.

Zwet, we can't leave him until lylo. That would not be smart.

[dejkha]

There's tons of scumtells he's let out, but you can't tell because it's a nulltell for him and that's the problem. In lylo, you won't be able to read him and he can easily escape while being scum. That's why when judging Emp, you don't do it by looking at his play, but everyone elses.

[dejkha]

? So... if everyone else thinks Emp is scum he MUST be scum? What are you trying to say?

No, you see how other people reaction to him and his play.

[dejkha]

Since you voted Emp, it'll only reinforce your connection to him if you flip scum because it would be seen as obvious distancing.

I apologize, but I don't find anyone else scummy, at the moment. My V/LA made it difficult for me to have any say in the matter up until this point, and I can't exactly vote for someone I don't find scummy. Allow me to reread the game, and I'll produce another suspect, if Empking doesn't satisfy you all. It seems like distancing, yes. Is it distancing? No.

My vote to Empking is based around the severity of his Ad Hom this game. In my previous game, he was much, much more mild with his critiques. These seem defensive, angry, and scummier than he played before.

I, once I finish my homework, will reread the topic and find Empking's partner, and post my findings.

No need to apologize. I'm not using your vote as evidence against you. I'm only saying that, if you are scum, it won't help to distant you from him.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

Giuseppe - 1 - dejkha
AndyTony - 1 - Empking
Empking - 1 - Giuseppe

Grimmy - 0
dejkha - 0
zwetschenwasser - 0
Pablo Molinero - 0
Zachrulez - 0
Cephrir - 0
madeofphail - 0

Not Voting: zwetschenwasser, millar13, AndyTony, roflcopter, Cephrir, Pablo Molinero, Grimmy, Zachrulez, madeofphail

With 10 players, it takes 6 to Lynch.

[dejkha]

Why do you say that?

[dejkha]

1. I said "If you are scum"
2. Why is suspicious? I don't know who scum is. Why would I not us "if"?

[dejkha]

It's really not.

[dejkha]

Alright then, let's take a poll so I don't get stuck in another stupid conversation.

Who thinks that saying "If you are scum[...]" is a scumtell and who thinks it isn't?

[dejkha]

Stop trying to distract us away from your scumminess.

No no no. You be quiet. I asked for other peoples opinions. I'm giving people a chance to agree with your case and I'm bringing attention to what you consider a scumtell. I'm helping you with your case against me.

[dejkha]

He's saying post 353 is a scumtell with his reasoning in 356.

[dejkha]

makes me nervous in the way that it implies Emp getting lynched ‘has’ to come in the future no matter what. Ignore the fuck for now, I agree (AT!), but let’s wait for more data to come in.

I do ignore him unless he asks a question that isn't stupid. Guess what? Scum want you to ignore them and I don't care how much we do, but it's stupid to let him live until lylo.

Why say this? Wait til he responds to explain to lessen a chance of a lie. Slight, unnecessary coaching.

My post was not game related, so it has no effect as evidence. I said that because if Emp says he's 18 or something, then he would just look like an idiot 18 yr old. But if he says he's , then ok, at least it's understandable.

[dejkha]

Andy, I think you should make up your mind, because you certainly seem to be trying to get on certain wagons early in case they catch fire.

[dejkha]

Forgive me if I am misconstrueing the facts, but this seems to say that you have no problem with playing right into the scum's hands.

I'm not playing into anything. If Emps scum, he's getting lynched whether I ignore him or not (hopefully), so whats the problem?

I don't know why we are trying to gain meta info that has no real bearing on the game. A person's age will not determine if they are scum or not. And it seems to me that you have enough of a mind to get emp lynched based on meta, regardless of his age. Why bother getting this information?

Ask Zwet, he's the one that ask the question.

[dejkha]

Giuseppe, do you have anything to add from before when you said you'd read in more detail?

[dejkha]

If Millar was my scum buddy then it would have been in this case.

I'd like to see what Zwet has to say about that.

[dejkha]

So you do not have anything to say about it?

[dejkha]

Ok, that's a no. Also, I don't care what Emp was talking about because he was talking to you, so I'm not going to respond to it. Anyway, that makes me curious about something.

How is this a scumtell:

If you were scum...

but not this:

If Millar was my scum buddy

If anything I'd think that Emp's would be more of a scumtell since saying "If Millar was my scumbuddy" could be interpreted as Emp saying he has a scum buddy, but it wasn't Millar.

I don't think much of either statements, but I'm curious as to how you see things, since the way you see things seems questionable.

[dejkha]

If it is, why did you not call him on it?

[dejkha]

How was my dodge of it scummier when you didn't even mention his until I did? You're making no sense.

[dejkha]

So you're saying because I didn't respond to a comment that was directed to you, not only did you think that was scummy, but you didn't want to mention a scumtell from a another player? Doubtful.

FoS: Zwet

[dejkha]

You said you "would've said said something about it" if I didn't dodge it. No where does that imply you planned on ever saying it. It sounds like you weren't going to. Why would you wait to say it anyway? If you thought I dodge something, then ask me about it and mention the Emp slip. You're not limited to one find per post.

[dejkha]

Sorry, but your dodge was WAY scummier than Emp's scumtell.

Then what did I dodge?

[dejkha]

I think Zwet is scummy for not bringing up what he considers to be a scumtell when Emp says it, but he does bring it up when I say it. Then he tries to weasel his way out of it by saying I was dodging something that was between him and Emp and didn't even acknowledge what Emp said until I brought it up.

I could've said that after post 409, but I wanted to be sure he wouldn't mention it, because if he did, then it would show that he was treating everyone equally when it came to what he considered to be a scumtell. But now it's shown that he's selective on who he attacks for a scumtell. Maybe he's trying to protect Emp from his own standards...

[dejkha]

I'm almost afraid to lynch Emp first, because if he flips town, we may lose most of our leads, because they all involved Emp. And I'm not gonna vote Emp because of the wording he used. I've seen people phrase things badly and make mistakes like that, as have I in previous games, and they were town. So I'm sticking with Giuseppe for now. Hopefully he'll give more input soon.

[dejkha]

I'm saying I don't want to lynch Emp and have him turn up town. It would suck after the connections that were made. That's why I'm going with Giuseppe first. If he's scum, Emp is is likely partner. If he's town, then Zwet and Emp are the next likely pair, IMO, so Emp would be the suggested following lynch.

[dejkha]

I don't think its a scumtell. And I never said I did. In fact, I specifically said I didn't think it was. But you, who thinks it is a scumtell, didn't call him out on it either, so that means, according to your logic in the above post, that's a scumtell for you also.

I wanted you to respond to it, which you never did until I mentioned it. So it looks like you're choosing certain people to bring up scumtells about. If I didn't bring it up, you never would have, which means you would be keeping info from people, so you were being anti-town by doing all that.

[dejkha]

It doesn't matter what you would've done, because nothing was stopping you from doing it. You didn't call out Emp's scumtell until I did and that was after I gave you time. It doesn't matter if you think you found another scumtell. Don't be selective. You were selective and by your own logic, its a scumtell that you didn't call out Emp.

[dejkha]

Could've waited for what? I gave you time and asked if you noticed anything about his post. You didn't mention it, even though you took the liberty of mention my "slip" right away.

[dejkha]

It doesn't matter what you

would've

done. My post didn't stop you from mentioning a scumtell. You willing did not call him out on it. By your logic that is a scumtell. Sorry, there's no way around it. You screwed up big time.

[dejkha]

EBWOP: You

willingly

did not call him out on it.

[dejkha]

I'm saying I don't want to lynch Emp and have him turn up town. It would suck after the connections that were made. That's why I'm going with Giuseppe first. If he's scum, Emp is is likely partner. If he's town, then Zwet and Emp are the next likely pair, IMO, so Emp would be the suggested following lynch.

To add to this posts that says why I made that statement, I still think Giuseppe would be the best lynch.

Giuseppes Lynch first

He's town. We go after Emp next to see if the other pairings are possible.

If Gius it town, the I think the following pairs are likely:

- Emp and Zwet
- Emp and Phail

He's scum. This makes it extremely possible that Emp is his scumbuddy and leaving Emp by himself is great. Seeing how he plays, he'd be making bad decisions. If he flips scum it also reveals some people as town (won't say who or why, until he's lynched).

Emp's Lynch first

He's town. All leads related to him are lost and we start anew

He's scum. Possible scum partners:

- Phail
- Giuseppe
- Zwet

So if Giuseppe is lynched first and he's scum, that's leaves 1 very likely scumpartner.

If Emp is lynched first and he's scum, that leaves 3 possible scumpartners.

If Giuseppe is town, We can still make likely connections to Emp.

If Emp is town, we start anew and that includes every one as possible scum and, I'm not an optimist, so between the useless people, lurkers, and the people that have been actively posting, I doubt we'll get both scum in time. We've only been taking in consideration the people that have been posting a good amount, but if Emp flips town, lurkers and useless posters are suspects also, so it's almost like starting from day one again.

But I'm almost positive scum lies in the circle of Emp, Giuseppe, Zwet and Phail. So me not wanting to lynch Emp first is also related to me thinking a win won't be likely after that.

[dejkha]

One of the things I feel like you're not taking into consideration here is: what if Giuseppe is scum without Emp? You make it sound like a foregone conclusion but I really don't think it is.

I only went as far as to say what we do after whoever we lynch. I'm not explaining what I plan to do for the rest of the game.

Yes, but this is basically going to be true no matter what if Emp is town. This is my main problem with your plan. If Emp is town, we need to know that sooner rather than later so that the info we get going forward will actually be useful. If he's town we have a major problem but not finding out that we have said problem will only exacerbate the situation.

If today comes down to a choice between Emp and Giuseppe I will definitely be voting Emp. Even though I think there's a good chance they're both town and

I'd prefer to explore every other option before falling back on the Emp lynch

.

You're thinking too far ahead and basing too much on links between players as opposed to actual scumminess. If you were scum, especially if it were with Emp or any of your suspects, that would be a pretty good strategy and it's making me nervous.

I see where you're coming from, but Emp is one you can only judge based on how others react to him. And if we find out later that he's town, we can gather a lot based on how people acted toward each other and toward the Emp and Giuseppe situation.

For the bolded part: why don't you?

Giuseppe, I'll admit, you got me with that post ("got me" as in I understand). I'll vote Emp today because lynching you and Emp today both have their pros and cons and Emp has been uncharacteristically quiet today. That's enough to persuade me to vote him instead. And someone repeatedly saying they're town, kind of makes me believe it, but I know I shouldn't just because you say so, so if he flips scum, I'll want you lynched next.

Unvote Vote: Emp

[dejkha]

That's to say, you get Guiseppe killed, and have Emp to fall back on the next day for another town kill - - ultimately, that's four kills for a scum, all the while you maintain the most activity and try to make it subconscious knowledge that you're town.

If that were the case, why would it matter who I wanted lynched? If I were scum and they were both town, I don't see how it would matter to me.

[dejkha]

Oh wow, that totally went by me. Thanks.

[dejkha]

@Madeofphail- Sorry I forgot to include why I think you could be scum. At the end of Day 1 I had minor suspicions on you and that coupled with what Grimmy said about you possibly framing Giuseppe makes you a possible scum candidate IMO.

[dejkha]

Agreed. Considering the current situation, no lynch would more than likely lose us the game.

[dejkha]

No Lynch is always, always, always a horrible idea.

Scum killing in the night is innevitable - it's going to happen and we not only learn from the scum kill choice, but we eliminate suspects.

Killing a towny will only aid their body count before what will absolutely happen.

If we dont lynch, the NK will definitely be on a lurker and we will have gained nothing. How do you not see that, accompanied with the current situation we're in with a high amount of suspects and connections? A lynch will give us more answers than no lynch ever will and its worth the trade off of having less town than a no lynch would grant us.

FoS: Andy

[dejkha]

To me, the lurkers are Grimmy (7 posts), Pablo (10 posts), Ceph (22 posts) and Zach (34 posts). I don't think they're saying much. You have few posts as well, but they're full of content, unlike them. That's 4 lurkers with 2 scum.

I am 95% certain because the scum would have to be idiots not to see the predicament we're in and how the uncertainty toward certain players can potentially lose us the game. Killing someone that's contributing rather than a lurker greatly increases the chance of them being found out. I say all that hoping they would figure it out on there own (I say "hope" because if they didn't, I just told them).

[dejkha]

I'm saying that we have time until deadline - - if nothing develops by then, I'd go with a no lynch rather than a mislynch (as it stands) - that way we lose one instead of two.

Is that wrong?

I'm not saying we should stop scum hunting in the least bit if that's what you're worried about - we clear? lol

Yes, that is wrong. I think I've made clear why also.

[dejkha]

I'm saying at this very moment - I feel it's no lynch because everyone is bitching about "wah wah wah, I want to lynch this person, they are ABSOLUTELY gone before day two" but I'm not seeing the votes, and I'm not seeing the EVIDENCE - - I'm seeing speculation.

I thought it was Ceph that didn't vote...

We're focusing on "We have to lynch! We have to lynch"

And we're forgetting that our objective is "We have to find scum"

We have to lynch to validate our other connections. This lynch is scumhunting and this lynch is helping us find scum. I don't see how this is so hard for you to see.

No lynch at this very moment means we lose one towny instead of two.

No lynch would be the equivalent of losing a townie right now. It would be as if the day never ended and scum would have gotten a free kill and we'd have nothing more than we left off with (assuming the doc protects the wrong target, which is likely).

[dejkha]

To say that Emp being lynched is scumhunting sounds weak to me because there's more evidence to you thinking people CONNECTED to him are scum rather than HIM being scum.

Connections based on relationships, reactions and the NK are all we have. And that's what we need to work with.

Seeing how Emp hasn't posted for a long while (which is extremely unlike him), I'm guessing we're on the right path.

[dejkha]

He's at L-3 I think.

[dejkha]

Cephrir's lurking and activity like the above makes me nervous...

Same here. I also noticed how Pablo and Zach popped in once I mention their lurking.

[dejkha]

Cephir, hammer. He's not going to claim. I've seen him do it before; he was at L-1 and he didn't claim no matter how much people asked. He had his chance to counter with his own argument or to claim, but he didn't.

[dejkha]

Ceph, please note that I don't plan to use the hammer against you if he flips town. Emp had his chance and he didn't take it.

[dejkha]

He never says anything you should looks up. He's like a new born baby. Consider whatever he says as dribble.

[dejkha]

Can someone hammer? I don't see what we're waiting for.

[dejkha]

Wow. That doesn't give us much to work with. Can't say it wasn't unexpected though.

Vote: MadeofPhail

I've got a bad feeling about him and Cephir. I've stated on multiple occasions why I find think MoP is a possibly scum and the post he made against Giuseppe regarding why he would've killed Rofl was very observant. At the time I chalked it up to good scumhunting, but now I believe Giuseppe is innocent and that MoP was looking rather deep in that analysis. I'm pretty sure the things he mentioned for why Giuseppe would kill Rofl wouldn't have been found by anyone else, because I think they were things that could've been easy to overlook.

That's how I feel about it. That coupled with a gut feeling on MoP and Cephir made them my top two suspects.

[dejkha]

If you weren't dead, this would be a scumtell.

Vote: dejkha

Do you realize that not explaining a vote is scummy or is it code for saying "lynch me today"? And if you say what Phail said, then that may be enough for me to switch my vote to you, because there was no reason not to say so in the first place.

@dej: Do you have any suspicions of me other than a gut feeling?

You were lurking, which allowed you to repeat what people said, but not all the time. When you said we were gonna have to lynch Emp yesterday, but you never voted (he wasn't at all L1 the whole time, so it's not excuse) and didn't hammer when you had the chance. Naturally this can't make you and Emp scumbuddies because he wasn't scum, but it can mean you wanted him alive longer for reasons that scum would. That's not much, so my gut feeling outweighs it, that's why I'm not voting you.

Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand, you think the fact that I posted what I thought was substantial evidence makes me scum?

You believe that what I did was too specific for evidence? You believe that I looked too in-depth to make an argument?

If this is so, it sounds like the "too townie argument"?

Yeah, pretty much. It seems so deep that no one else would've noticed it, IMO. I just looked back at it and realized that I don't think most of it was about Giuseppe either. It pretty much concentrated on Rofl and Emp and

some

Giuseppe at the end. Or at least, thats what I think, because for some reason you didn't label who you're quoting. So at this point it's also hard to see why that seemed like a lot of evidence. One things I'm almost positive about is if you or Giuseppe is scum, the other isn't. You pushed hard on him, so I'd excluded you both as scumbuddies.

Due to the specificness of that post, I think Grimmy's statement about it is true in that you would try to frame him like that. Which may explain why you were on and off with you vote on Giuseppe. If he flipped town, you didn't want to be on the wagon for that reason.

But that's just what I think. I'm not forcing anyone else to you that reasoning (I'm sure they wouldn't anyway). I'd also like to hear from Grimmy. I hate when there are douche bags that do what he's doing- join a game and never play.

[dejkha]

I was already suspicious of MoP for possibly framing Giuseppe, but I find that this backs it up a bit.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

madeofphail - 1 - dejkha
dejkha - 1 - zwetchenwasser

Cephrir - 0
AndyTony - 0
Giuseppe - 0
Grimmy - 0
zwetschenwasser - 0
Zachrulez - 0

Not Voting: Cephrir, Grimmy, Giuseppe, Zachrulez, AndyTony, madeofphail

With 8 players, it takes 5 to Lynch.

[dejkha]

I disagree.

I know from playing with him in other games that he is a very good player.

I have also seen where the scum would target one townie in order to make another townie look guilty.

fos: Phail

I suspect that is what you are doing if you are really scum.
not convinced, but suspicious.

Grimmy

Phail was my initial suspect at the end of day one, but I've since seen more suspicious activity from Giuseppe. If Giuseppe flips towns, then I agree that Phail may have done what you described.

Now, I know Giuseppe hasn't flipped town, but I feel confident that he is.

[dejkha]

That's a giant load. The first two anyway. I understand if you wanna get rid of the nasty man.

[dejkha]

[hypothetical] I am scum. I am trying to frame giuseppe, but not be on the wagon.[/hypothetical]

Now tell me, Why would I be on or off? If I didnt want to be on the wagon, why get on it at any time if I was sure a wagon was going to form? I made my votes based on times when his guilt seemed to wax or wane. Why would a townie not follow this action? If a person is pretty much clear of suspicion, why want them dead? If a person is scummy, we want them dead.

Furthermore, please forgive me for showing emotion here:
I should slap you upside the head for using the "too townie" argument to find scum. That claim suggests that by being helpful, and trying to scumhunt, that person is scum. Now, tell me which part of that argument makes sense. If I was trying to lead the town, that would be somehting completely different

Obviously if you're gonna try and frame him, you'll get on his wagon. You don't bring up a case that can appear to be a big one and then not ever vote. That alone makes you look bad. That's why I think it looked weird that you were on and off his wagon. You voted him, unvoted, voted him again and unvoted. Not everything is as simple as "who's scumhunting and who's not". I'm taking the liberty of looking deeper than that.

This isn't the "too townie" argument. This is the "clever scum" argument.

Careful with the Zwet wagon everyone. I want to make sure Grimmy says something before the day is over.

[dejkha]

I did vote when I brought up the case, please do not try to bring false evidence to light against me. That accusation that I brought up a case and then did not vote has no base in reality.

It was a response to your hypothetical. I didn't bring in any false information without you allowing me to do so.

As for the rest. I just think the on/off voting patterns like that are scummy (and I haven't turned a blind eye to Andy Tony's either) and I can't give a motivation for why scum you would do that, because I'm not you. My vote on you is mostly riding on a possible framing and I'm fine with my vote for that reason.

[dejkha]

Remember he's saying we

both

pulled off after that big defense post - - and I don't believe there was ever a change in vote pattern without me specifically saying why - I think the reason is chief, Dej - what you're saying would make sense, but I think it applies to someone who's following the wagons like stock markets rather than explaining their actions.

When it comes to you, I'm not talking about the defense specifically. You must've voted and unvoted about 15 times in this game. Many times when a wagon started picking up the pace.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

zwetschenwasser - 2 - Cephrir, AndyTony

madeofphail - 1 - dejkha
dejkha - 1 - zwetchenwasser

Cephrir - 0
AndyTony - 0
Giuseppe - 0
Grimmy - 0
Zachrulez - 0

Not Voting: Grimmy, Giuseppe, Zachrulez, madeofphail

With 8 players, it takes 5 to Lynch.

[dejkha]

And would you say it's a fair satement that our cases constantly wavered? That there was a lot of reasonable doubt and loose suspicion?

I suppose so.

[dejkha]

I understand your case, but the most I'll give him is an FoS for now.

[dejkha]

Zwet have you just stopped trying or what? Because you're almost definitely gonna get lynched if you keep this up.

[dejkha]

*sniff sniff* I smell hypocrisy...

WTF? If you see scumminess in a post you don't have to relegate responding to it to someone else. What the heck?!

[dejkha]

The only thing I can get out of Zwets test is that he's voting me for being nasty, which is a horrible reason to vote someone anyway.

[dejkha]

I understand your case, but the most I'll give him is an FoS for now.

Here's some more blatant dej scumminess.

Are you ever going to say why or are you just going to repeatedly quote what I said and say it's scummy? I wouldn't be surprised if Zwet flipped scum. I'm probably the biggest threat to him because I've, on many occasions, supported his and Emps utility lynch and I'm pretty sure every game I've found something scummy about him, so if he were scum it would make sense that he would want me out of the picture. I assume he would've done it better though.

[dejkha]

I'd also like to hear from Grimmy.

I hate when there are douche bags that do what he's doing-

join a game and never play.

The day started after I went home. I am away from computers during the weekends. Today is monday, so Im checking in.

and for the bold part.

Grow the **** up junior.

Grimmy

I don't give a damn when the day started. Every game I've been in with you (which only amounts to about 2), you almost never post and when you do it almost never helps. It's every game day, not just today. Of the top of my head, I can only think of one good post you made this entire game and it was when you said MoP could be framing Giuseppe.

[dejkha]

I think you forgot the parts in bold also. So don't enter a game you wont play Mr. 10 posts.

[dejkha]

Zwet - are you going to waste our time and ask us to find scumminess FOR you so you can keep your baseless, scummy vote on Dej?

Exactly. Zwet you are showing an incredible amount of hypocrisy and voted me for the same things you're doing.

[dejkha]

There hasn't been a single game I've been in with Emp where I haven't pushed for his lynch. Normally I push the hardest. Feel free to check the meta.

[dejkha]

Give him a sec. He has to think of something.

[dejkha]

No, you can add votes also. When you say "Emp needs to die" and "Zwet needs to die", I don't see why you don't vote with those statements.

[dejkha]

I haven't had an internet connection since Friday, so that's why I haven't posted (after that point anyway), and I just got it back. I'll try to make a post ASAP.

[dejkha]

Post for prod. I'll get to work on a real post.

[dejkha]

Andy, I'm liking your case against Phail and Zach. Here's something else I noticed when reading through it.

Do we absolutely HAVE to lynch Emp today?

I think a decent case can be made to lynching AndyTony instead

. I am feeling more and more weary about him the more he posts.

He made this statement

with a vote on Emp

- contradicting himself and in the process, throwing a baseless statement against my life in the game without giving evidence. He has twice mentioned having suspicions he doesn't voice when he has them - - and he hasn't to this point cleared up why he said that to me.

As well as what you said about not explaining, the way he says the bolded statement is disturbing. It's like he's trying to drive people away from an Emp lynch (which scum would do for obvious reasons) and thinks a case can be made on you. It's almost like saying "Even though it doesn't look like it, we can probably dig deep to make an otherwise mostly town player look scummy". I say "mostly town player" because I haven't seen much suspicion on you.

What you posted would be the main case I would use against him since it's the most solid when compared to past cases against him. We can always take his lurking into account as well.

And you part of the case on Phail combined with my own previously stated suspicions makes him the most likely candidate for scum in my eyes. If one of them flips town though, I'll be after Cephir next, because even though I don't really have anything solid on him, he's been a massive lurker for this whole game (he made a decent sized post today though) along with Grimmy.

Contradiction: Millar13 states that self-voting is a scumtell, then says it is helpful.

Self-voting is never useful to your faction. Millar13 is encouraging self-voting to the common faction,which is town. In conclusion post 17 is encouraging anti-town acts, and is therefore anti-town.

First post and he's already acting super-logical. Obviously it's a playstyle thing but it's weird.

The first part has been discussed and explained why there was no contradiction in the first place. The second half is just a given. I'll also note how you seem to be letting Phail off the hook in most cases.

The one thing that really sticks out to me with what I've seen so far and the impression I've gotten from phail throughout the game is that he's very preoccupied with ensuring that all his statements can be backed up with almost perfect logic.

I guess you missed the many times where he unvotes because he's supposedly found many flaws in his posts and reasons...

The only reason I have to question him is the simple question: why isn't he dead yet?

I actually didn't question it before you brought it up, but I would guess if anything, they're either NKing who they think is the doc or my suspicions are incorrect, so they would want me alive because of that.

With all that, MoP is my top suspect.

Vote: MadeofPhail

[dejkha]

Vote: MadeofPhail

So are we going to sit here and listen to you and Dejkha on yet another lynch while you go around and blame others for them flipping town?

Oh, and you realize if Phail ain't scum, scum can pretty much quick hammer, which is a town loss in lylo?

Just thought I'd mention that.

1. If he quicklynched a previous day it would've meant a large amount of suspicion.
2. If he's scums, obviously he can't quick lynch now.

And following that up, this is the way I'm seeing things right now.

madeofphail

dejkha

Cephrir

AndyTony

Grimmy
Zachrulez

Cool, now if you could only just start why doing something other than throwing out accusations, that would be great because that's pretty much all we're getting from you recently. You seem to continually be trying to stop certain lynches from happening (for reasons scum would want) without explanation.

[dejkha]

How are you and AndyTony not obvscum?

You're the one making the case, so how about you tell us why we are?

[dejkha]

Zach, let me share your voting patterns:

Your first post is a vote on Millar that you never change

Your ISO Post 16 is voting Andy based on one post. Your last post before that was 4 days earlier.

Your ISO Post 34 shows your weak reasoning (if that's what you want to call it) to vote Emp, only making one small post within the 3 days previously to that.

And your Zwet vote seems fine to me.

As far as I can tell, those were your only votes throughout the game.

... Yeah, what do you have to say for yourself now. In light of all this work I've just done, this comment seems a bit ridiculous now doesn't it?

You mean the comment that makes complete sense given how you gave no evidence before the time it was posted? Oh sure. Are you ready to be lynched or what?

Not only does it seem like your case includes how he was also on every wagon, but you fail to explain why his reasons are scummy. You say you've "done all this work", but it's not that much at all.

To wit Dejkha has posted something around 113 times.

Even Dejkha has posted almost twice as often as Zwet, who posts nothing but one liners usually as it is, and is usually a pretty easy read. This seems quite unusual to me.

I think it's worth noting (and I did some math on this.) That your posts combined comprise of 35% of the game posts. (And probably even more of the game space when we consider the size of your posts.

Yes, I want everyone to take note of my high post count, but not only that, but I want you all to look at my post count in other games so you can see how similar it is.

Zach, posting our post count and trying to make it look like we're "overposting" seriously looks like a desperate attempt to turn attention to someone else. Sorry, but when your posting pattern includes you posting one day every few days, sometimes with only one useless post, that's lurking. At least Phail had content in his post, unlike you. You and Cehpir were lurking and Phail seems to have stopped posting. Me and Andy have both included content in our post, so don't blame your bad reading skills on us trying to make the thread "harder to read".

[dejkha]

So your point is that I'm trying to prevent Phail's lynch?

I haven't actively defended or attacked Phail in anyway. (Though I do recall that one of both you and AndyTony may have said some things that could be seen as a lead in to lining up his lynch for today on day 3. I will have to look into it.)

So what's your point? If I thought Phail was scum that would be one thing. I think what has become painfully obvious is that all of the lynches have in reality been controlled by you and AT.

And I haven't really seen anything that makes me think Phail is scum, but apparently you guys have, and have decided not to act on it until today or all days. (After lynching all of the weaker players.)

I've brought up evidence on Phail since Day 1 and my vote was on him yesterday. The problem is that you're dismissing it without any counter or reason. I never said you were defending it, but you've tried to prevent a lynch on more than one occasion only to end up on the wagon anyway. If you don't want a lynch to be controlled by anyone, then participate and make cases like we have.

Don't blame it on us just because you're lurking. Believe it or not, staying quite doesn't help with the problems you have. In fact, a lot of the problems you have with me and Andy are you own fault for not posting more and not posting more posts with content.

[dejkha]

Also Dejkha, are you honestly saying you don't find my case against AT interesting in the least?

I mean, even if you disagree with any points I made against you... I would have to find it strange if you didn't.

Most of the points you made aren't evidence. And the ones that are can be applied to yourself.

[dejkha]

Nice job, Zach, but this time I think it would be better not to pick a Large Normal Game, which is coincidentally the game I've been catching up with today since I haven't had time to post for the last 2 week and a half. How about you find a 2 games game with a similar amount of players then you're point will be of concern.

[dejkha]

And make sure its not ongoing also, since it wouldn't do much if you don't know if I was scum in the game.

[dejkha]

And another game that's been going on longer than this one.

23 posts.

Scrolled down a little more for that one.

I've been forgetting about that game (read through my posts to see) and it's an ongoing game in which my role is unknown.

You're still not making any headway, Zach. The closest thing you can get to a low post count on a finished game with me as scum in my newbie game, in which I was only learning.

[dejkha]

The problem is that those are ongoing. You have no support if you don't know my role in those games, thus making your argument full of flaws.

[dejkha]

The problem is that those are ongoing. You have no support if you don't know my role in those games, thus making your argument full of flaws.

Actually, I don't even know why I'm arguing that. All he needs is to looks at completed games where I was town and my post count was high. If he finds those two things, his argument is null.

[dejkha]

In games, I'm active in, it's consistent. The games you choose, there were times that I didn't post for days into weeks. In the large game, it's a legitimate lack of posting due to my internet troubles that I told everyone about and it naturally takes longer to catch up. Think what you want about the other.

But if the point is that it's not consistent with the other 2 games of the many I've played then fine, but good luck making a case out of it, since that point is irrelevant.

[dejkha]

And accusing me of OMGUS is bullshit when YOU'RE the one casting a vote for me in response to my vote of you.

Wow, that's a giant load. I'd be voting you right now if it weren't for Phail not being here. In fact, seeing how scum could've quicklynched Phail when me and Andy were voting for him, I think the best bet is that Phail, Me, or Andy is scum. And since I have a good feeling about Andy, I think Phail's almost certainly scum.

I DID see it eventually though... but I guess you're goal is to constantly keep me distracted and replying to current events rather than actually be able to go back and read through the game.

There you go again blaming others for what you're not doing. If you need to read the thread, then go back and read it. We're not on a time limit.

I meant it exactly the way I said it.

Way to misrepresent scumbag.

I didn't know what you meant when I read it either, so it wasn't very clear.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 26&start=0

42 game posts

Completed game.

TOWN

Not only did that have a fairly quick first day, but I was NK'd the first night, smart one. Do your research correctly next time.

Good god, I feel almost positive that Zach is scum, but the probabilty of Phail being scum is higher.

[dejkha]

You ignored the part where I explained that I had suspected AndyTony long before he started attacking me. In fact his attacks on me started once my suspicions of him started again.

His prime suspects were lynched. He's got to start somewhere and I seem to recall him calling you out on lurking. If fact, I think after someone were to call you out on lurking, you'd pop your head in almost immediately afterward.

Apparently we are, because I have been faulted for not reading it, even though I had read your posts below it without even realizing it was there at first, and that ignoring of the post seems to be one of the factors that contributed to him voting for me... so don't play that game with me.

Yes, you've been faulted for not reading, not

rereading

like you apparently think. The case on Phail has been presented on a couple of occasions and you apparently have seen it. I call that not reading.

That day lasted a month, and you were actually called out for lurking.

You spent a decent amount of time defending yourself from lurking accusations.

Sound familiar? It's one of your main points against me along with AndyTony.

I don't remember being called out for lurking. Get me a link to that page, please. Also, you can't call it lurking when you're comparing the ratio. In those other games, other people posted which means their was more discussion between

everyone

, which tends to have longer days along with everyone having a similar post count. You and about 3 others hardly posted, especially in Day 1 where you were all so fixed on a millar lynch that the game day ended in 4 days. In any event, my other games that are completed or ongoing where I'm dead share similar posting in that most people participated which made for an even post count. Which makes more to respond to which makes long posts with combined responses, thus a shorter post count. So it's because so many people were lurking that my post count is so high.

Hell, check my games that I'm alive in and check the count there. I can't be scum in all of them.

In fact, here's a quote from someone in an ongoing game

I think that dejkha is generally an outspoken player, I think he likes to voice his opinion as often as he can, and the fact that he hasn't posted in what seems to be eight days and about five pages ago, disturbs me.

You should be weary if I'm not posting.

Screw it

Vote: Zachrulez

Either scum can hammer now or scum's on the wagon (or it's Zach and Phail)

[dejkha]

Unvote Vote: Zachrulez

I always forget =P

[dejkha]

Damn it! lol

Unvote Vote: Zachrulez

[dejkha]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 26&start=0

Starts at post 20 with you in Iso.

Voluntarily letting people know you're there with nothing to say isn't being "called out on lurking". I had nothing to say, so I didn't post. There's plenty to say in this game, so no one can use that same excuse.

[dejkha]

Voluntarily letting people know you're there with nothing to say isn't being "called out on lurking". I had nothing to say, so I didn't post. There's plenty to say in this game, so no one can use that same excuse.

I'll let the town be the jury on that.[/quote]

Just so you know, my first sentence is fact, not opinion. But sure, let's hear what the town has to say, since they don't seem to have much to say at all.

[dejkha]

I don't want anyone to hammer until Cephir gets back. He said he'll be V/LA until the 28th and he may not have access.

[dejkha]

745 took me an hour to write which happens to be the length of my lunch break at work.

Without going into detail about the events of my life, I simply lack the time to post until sometime after 9pm central tonight.

Think what you want to about that AT.

That's a great point, Zach. Unlike you, I have a lot more time to post and that's why my post count is so high.

[dejkha]

And to further my point - my cases on you took less than twenty minutes because I knew what the case was, and read enough of the thread to put it together on you.

That's what I was getting at before in his quote where he said something like "I'm pretty sure a case could be made on Andy". It sounded like he saw no case on you, but wanted to make one for whatever reason and this is his bad attempt at it.

[dejkha]

But, if we look back, do we see buddying betwixt these two?

In my opinion (as town or scum), buddying isn't really a scumtell anymore. If anything, I'd find distancing a lot more of a scumtell, but buddying to a scum tactic to lead town away from their partners if they're lynched, if anything. Some people just share the same views. But in that case, I don't remember seeing you disagreeing much with me or Andy.

While dej has been quite beneficial, this does not prove him entirely innocent.

While I'm flattered so many people seem to think so, let's be honest, we've had three mislynches and we're in lylo. I was part of two of those mislynches, so obviously I haven't been benefiting town as much as I would be if I was finding scum.

We can still do this guys. I have faith in you. although, i was hoping to be mislynched at one point, b/c i have a really good bah post that i want to use........oh wells, ill save it for if we win. or if i get mislynched.

While I have a weakness for people that claim to be town (for some reason I always want to believe it), I'm not gonna believe it this time. My point early about scum being either me, Andy or you still holds true.

[dejkha]

That's as good as saying Guiseppe and Ceph are in the clear.

Are you suggesting that we let them slide?

I'll assume you mean Grimmy (Giuseppe is dead). Not necessarily, but I'm almost positive scum is one of us or Phail is scum. I want to wait for Cephir comes back before anyone is at L-3 to see what he has to say. And I'm waiting for Grimmy's post that he said he would make this week.

[dejkha]

As far as the grimmy and cephrir point goes. they don't post enough. I dont have much dirt on them to make a case, so why point accusations with no basis, its confusing, causes clutter, and I'm not a fan of either. If you can find substantial evidence against them by all means, go ahead.

Their massive lurking is a big enough case on it's own for that exact reason: you can't get dirt on them because of it. Don't let them slide just because you can't find anything when it's obvious that's because they're lurking.

[dejkha]

And our position on Zach?

what makes him in the clear exactly? He hopped out of the lurking pot with Grimmy and Ceph, and has in my opinion dug himself a hole.

I feel like we're dropping it pretty easily..

It's hard to tell. Phail and Zach seem like the most likely pair, but my theory about scum hammering doesn't hold up with him as, if Cephirs scum, it can't happen because he's not here.

[dejkha]

I have something to say regarding Zach, but I won't until Cephir and Grimmy return. But for now:

Unvote

Phail, I hate to say it, but your plan is very flawed. All except the part of no lynching, which I support to some degree. Your theory relies on one thing and one thing only: that Me and Cephir/Grimmy are scum due to the fact that you find it unlikely. As far as I can tell, you have nearly no evidence on any of use (except for how Grimmy and Cephir are lurking), which makes that horrible reasoning.

2). in order to make the town devoid of nightkill evidence, the scum have been targeting lurkers. the only major lurker I see left is cephrir, and he has a good meta record as a good player. Why wouldn't he be a target much earlier in the game? If he was scum, his existance up to this point would make alot of sense.

Probably because if he's town, he hasn't been saying very much at all, so that's probably why. And if he's scum, obviously that's why.

3). In light of points two and three, dejkha and cephrir are pretty much the perfect scumpair. Dejkha is so agressively pro-town, that no one would suspect him, and cephrir is never suspected because he lurks.

No, if anything, we'd be the perfect scumpair because no one has suspected us much at all. The problem with your reasoning is that I don't look pro-town because i post lot (that shouldn't be it anyway), I look pro-town because I've been posting a lot

and

I haven't done much of anything suspicious. The more I post, the easier it becomes to find something scummy and it's the fact that you haven't that's why no one suspects me. Cephir is suspected because he lurks, but we don't have anything specific on him.

2). Someone else is nightkilled (besides cephrir or dejkha)
Result: That pretty much confirms my theory then. It also doesnt change our lylo situation, but it did just give us the scum.

No it doesn't. Let's say we no lynch and Grimmy's killed. There's still 5 people left and you would think the scum would be the two people with the least amount of suspicion on them for that fact alone.

Not to mention how your theory is even more screwed up given how Grimmy almost never posts anything good. Your theory is so flawed with such horrible reasoning, it may be enough to switch my vote back to you if we're (me and you) both alive tomorrow.

[dejkha]

I don't like the idea of no lynch because...

1. The town loses a vote

2. There's a lower chance of a successful doc protect at night.

3. The scum will kill the person who's death is least likely to help town.

I actually did think very similarly along the lines of what you are thinking and decided against it for the above reasons.

Consequently, if we happen to finally get a successful doc protect, we get another lynch. This is true regardless of whether we lynch or not... and this event happening greatly increases our chances of winning the game.

We're in lylo right now. No lynch can only help us, given how unsure we are right now, since we'll still be in lylo tomorrow.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

Zachrulez - 1 - AndyTony
AndyTony - 1 - Zachrulez
No Lynch - 1 - madeofphail

madeofphail - 0
dejkha - 0
Cephrir - 0
Grimmy - 0

Not Voting: Grimmy, Cephrir, dejkha

With 6 players, it takes 4 to Lynch.

[dejkha]

And why is it that you never clutched onto this idea until right now when Phail proposed it?

I never thought about it. Besides, I was pretty certain I had found scum, but now I'm not so much for reasons I'll give later whether they be good or bad.

[dejkha]

Let me break it down why not lynching is more beneficial:

1. The town loses a vote

If we vote wrong now, it won't matter because we'll have lost. The only way lynching now would help is if we lynch correct and there's a 1/3rd possibility of that happening and the odds aren't in our favor.

2. There's a lower chance of a successful doc protect at night.

If we no lynch, we don't want the doc to protect right because it would be as if nothing changed. It would be as if the day never ended. That's why a night kill would help. It narrows down the possibilities without losing us the game.

3. The scum will kill the person who's death is least likely to help town.

That would leave Grimmy or Cephir. That's fine with me because they may be scum and we can't know because they hardly ever post.

[dejkha]

First paragraph is my position on No lynch thus far... I'm not a fan. In short, we risk being in the same situation with less town on our side in the event of one of the two main lurkers dying.

If the one of the lurkers are killed, that's one less to suspect and it doesn't matter if there's less of us since they hardly ever post.

[dejkha]

hardly ever posting doesn't make them hardly less town, though, and we need the numbers - - is my logic off here?

The point is that they haven't really been helping, especially Grimmy, so it wouldn't be like we're losing anyone that's particularly helpful.

[dejkha]

The ratio doesn't matter at this point it's lylo either way. The only difference is that we'll need to be even more careful with our votes (meaning, don't vote until it's agreed) if we no lynch, but that's a given.

[dejkha]

2/5 isn't that much better.

Not much, but it's better none the less. We have nothing to lose. We can only gain.

If we lynch scum today, and there's a successful doc protect at night. The doc can claim and clear a townie, and the remaining scum can't counterclaim. Our odds of winning dramatically increase.

I will concede that there are a lot of ifs to this scenario.

Yes, there are many ifs. Our odds of winning dramatically increase, but the odds of all that happening are incredibly low.

I'm not big on suspecting lurkers as a policy, so I wouldn't personally consider it much of a help.

I suspect them because they've hardly done anything. They could both be scum and we wouldn't know because of it. We have nothing to lose by them being the NK. That only narrows down the possibility of a lurker being scum.

[dejkha]

2). Dejkha is pretty much agreed to be one of the most pro-town players we have so far. no one really has a beef with him, so he would be damn hard to accomplish as a mislynch. The scum should get rid of him a.s.a.p, otherwise his play would root them out. As he has survived to lylo, this makes me suspicious.

The problem with this is, when it comes to scum, it doesn't matter what the town thinks of me. It matters what scum think of me. I only seem town because I haven't done anything scummy, but scum probably don't find me to be a threat because I haven't found scum. That's may be why lynching lurkers would be a better option for them.

To correct the misconception, it is not because these two have not been accused that I am accusing them, but the fact that they are going to be hard to lynch, and are good for the town, therefore a threat to the scum, and are still alive.

We're not particularly good for the town. I'm not bad for the town, but Cephir can be due to his massive lurking. Either way, none of us have helped town because none of us have found scum. The only thing that I contributed in to help town was getting rid of people that were harder to judge.

I think your theory relies to much on how town views us, which you seem to think is that town thinks I've been helping. Scum obviously believe that I haven't, and it's not hard to see why. You're unnecessarily giving me too much credit so that your theory will work. The reason no one has a beef with me is because I've done close to nothing scummy or suspicious, so there's no reason to have a beef with me. Like I said earlier, due to my high post count, it would be easier to find something scummy.

Grimmy, I have no idea where you pulled that reasoning from, but I've already explained. We're in lylo right now! No lynch can only help us. Scum NKing an active player is just as useful as scum NKing a lurker. Either way, it narrows down the choices without losing us the game.

FoS: Grimmy

Note to Phail: Please stop saying things like "if [this person] get's NKed, it will lead me to suspect [this person]." That's only helping scum.

Why not use our time to be certain about who is scum and have more town numbers

Because it's a lot easier to be certain when there's less people. Lynching wrong from now on, losses us the game no matter what. That's why we need to do it with less people to choose from.

If tomorrow and today is Lylo - - you're asking us to vote on being in the SAME position we're in now, with one less towny to aid us.

Exactly. At this stage, a dead townie can tell us more than an unsure townie ever could. I don't see how you're not getting this...

[dejkha]

Mod: BTW Cephir posted in the V/LA Thread saying:

"Gone until 4/28, no idea whether I'll have any access. "

Oh. Okay, thanks.

[dejkha]

When I say "unsure" I mean everyone in the sense that we're not sure who scum is. Killing someone, anyone, off without losing the game makes it easier. Numbers do not matter. One more unsure mind doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who get's NKed, it'll have it's advantages.

It doesn't matter if we're on the clock on not. It doesn't matter to me to when we do it, as long as we do. The bottom line is that we'll be more certain with less people to choose from.

[dejkha]

Another pro would be, if we no lynch, if the doc lives until tomorrow, he can claim and narrow it down even more.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

Zachrulez - 1 - AndyTony
AndyTony - 1 - Zachrulez
No Lynch - 1 - madeofphail
dejkha - 1 - Grimmy

madeofphail - 0
Cephrir - 0
Grimmy - 0

Not Voting: Cephrir, dejkha

With 6 players, it takes 4 to Lynch.

[dejkha]

This very discussion is scumhunting. Just because I want something to happen, doesn't mean I want it to happen immediately. Actually, after I hear from Cephir, I think that would be a good time. Even still, obviously people still need to think about it, but as I've said before, we can only gain from a no lynch.

[dejkha]

I understand both sides of the logic, but I can't get past feeling like we're throwing away a tool, something we use, something important.

We're not throwing it away. We get one chance to do this right. We're delaying the use of a tool until we know we can use it best.

Think about it. We no lynch today and someone gets NK'd. That 5 people left, two of which are scum (2/5). The doc claims because he has to as it's the final lylo and that's 4 people with one cleared person with two scum left (2/4). The combination of the info we'll gain from the NK and a doc claim is quite large and may help back up cases about each of our individual suspects.

[dejkha]

I think it would be more accurate to say:

6 people total.

2 Unknown Scum and 4 Unknown Innocents.

1 Nk.

2 Unknown Scum and 3 Unknown Innocents.

1 Doc Claim.

2 Unknown Scum, 2 Unknown Innocents and 1 Confirmed Innocent.

Why would you rather guess scum from 5 other people rather than 3 other people?

[dejkha]

If the Doc is NK'ed or does not make a succesful protect, then the claim is still useless, and we lost an extra chance to lynch scum.

Im still shaking my head on this no lynch idea.

The Doc being killed isn't a flaw. I took the most likely situation. Whether the doc get's NK'd or not, no lynch is still better. We can't lose an extra chance to lynch scum

because we only get one more chance from here on out no matter what!

. If we fail, there's no "extra" chance. There's only lynch right or lose and no lynch for today is the best way to accomplish that. Sorry to say, but whether you agree or not, that's a fact.

[dejkha]

Again: I promise that I am not scum in this mafia game.

Promises mean nothing in this game. So please stop making them because every time you do, it makes me suspect you more.

[dejkha]

It wasn't very smart to claim at all, Phail. If you didn't claim and we no lynched, 3 things could've happened. Either you get NK'd, you live with a successful protect and claim so we can gain from that knowledge or you live with an unsuccessful protect and you claim narrowing down the scum choices for us.

Unfortunately your bad logic put us at less of an advantage if we no lynch. The point isn't that "there's no reason not to claim", but rather "there's no reason to claim". With you claiming, you made us lose some of the advantages we had. Because of that claim, we gain nothing, we only lose.

[dejkha]

Also, if he's fakeclaiming, I ask the real doc to claim now.

[dejkha]

No lynching is still more beneficial, just not as much because of his pointless claim.

[dejkha]

2).I'm abandoning hope, and making the best of our situation, because it isn't going to get much better than this.

No. If you were, then you wouldn't have claimed.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

No Lynch - 2 - madeofphail, AndyTony

AndyTony - 1 - Zachrulez
dejkha - 1 - Grimmy

Zachrulez - 0
madeofphail - 0
Cephrir - 0
Grimmy - 0

Not Voting: Cephrir, dejkha

With 6 players, it takes 4 to Lynch.

[dejkha]

Wow, that was unexpected. But I'm inclined to believe Cephirs counter-claim. Not only was Phails claim unreasoned and unnecessary, but he did so at the time a no lynch looked possible (contrary to what Andy believes, I'm pretty sure the majority thought a no lynch would be best).

Seems like a scum tactic to me: propose a town benefiting solution to our difficult position by suggesting a no lynch and then find a way out when it looks like it would actually happen. Like I said earlier in the day when Phail was at L-2, scum could've hammer for the win or they were one of the three involved with the wagon.

Vote:MadeofPhail

[dejkha]

Dej, if I get killed tonight - know my vote would have gone to Zach

Lol, ok but I can't say the same for me yet. Earlier in the day I said I wanted to say something regarding Zach, but I wanted to wait until Ceph was back. Since he's back, I don't think Zach's as scummy as he originally appeared. His cases on you, though weak, were still large and attempted. He seemed to have read and used most of the thread to make his case. I don't think scum would've gone through as much trouble as he did. Granted, he's still scummy in his own right, but it gives me a weird feeling.

[dejkha]

Only a complete fool would think millar was right just because he said it. It was impossible for him to know and he wasn't a good player so he clearly didn't know what he was talking about.

[dejkha]

The doc claim really made no sense.

This x10.

Fun game though. I hope to play with you all (except Grimmy lol) in the future.

[dejkha]

Put what in my sig? What I said or what you said?:

"Grimmy
wouldnt feel right not playing in a game with Dej"

[dejkha]

I kind of had a feeling that Ceph might've fake claimed since if scum did fake claim then people would probably believe it and that would be that. I really wish Phail didn't claim though.

[dejkha]

You are wrong. It is my fault that the scum won this match. I have been an idiot this entire game. Using the analogy before with ther army officer. My blunder has caused the defeat of all my comrades. This is made worse by the fact that we began as outnumbering them 6:1. I am to blame if anyone is, and everyone ripping on me is totally in the right.

While I agree with this...

As such I am to be stipped of rank, and dishonorably discharged. This is to say, after I finish the current game I am playing, I will no longer be participating in games on mafiascum.net as I will undoubtably screw over whichever faction I am aligned with.

... I don't agree with this. That's being to harsh on yourself. You made mistake that can easily be corrected the next time you play. According to Zach, in your newbie game you claimed doc or cop when you were a vanilla townie (or something like that) which you obviously know to never do again. And now you know not to claim out of the blue with no reason. It's a learning experience. You shouldn't penalize yourself like that by stop playing on this site. This isn't the military, it's just a game.

The fact that this was my second game is no excuse, and My first game was a horrible event in which I bled all over the game, and screwed over the town. I have brought great dishonor to myself, and after seeing how much meta can play a part in games, I realize that the meta building against me dictates correctly that I am a horrible player, and a Liability to boot.

Lol dishonor? Again, it's just a game. You're not a horrible player. Empking and Zwet are horrible players. You're active and make good logical posts. That's all you need to play without being a liability.

I should always be lynched Day one, as I am worse than empking, who at least wasnt trying to back up his incorrect claims with evidence that would mislead the town.

No. Emp, Zwet, Millar, and Grimmy should always be lynched Day 1. But unfortunately that would lose us the game a lot of times.

... "Worse than Empking"... *DOES NOT COMPUTE*

Have you notice that Empking thinks he's always right? He can say Humans are at the bottom of the food chain and will never understand why he's wrong.

I'd play with you over Emp, Zwet, Millar and Grimmy any chance I got. I know that's not saying much, but I don't have a problem with playing with you again.

[dejkha]

...Who are you?