Mini 737 - Hack Poetry Mafia (Game Over)

[Jebus]

Hai, sorry for delay in my post.

I'm going to read the game in a couple of hours after I finish my paper, so for now if you've got anything you want me to look at specifically, make note of it so I see it when I read up. Thanks

[Jebus]

Hai, I'm here now.
Though my poetry can be fail.
And despite the length
Here's my game scale:

I'ma hold off on the poetry for the important parts, anyway. I've found it somewhat more time consuming to follow, when time is of the essence, or something like that

Anyway, right off I'm getting scum-vibes from fhqwhgads, though I'm not quite sure why. Just the feeling of his posts, I guess.

Post 30 - Ice9. I like this guy's style, though taking something in the RVS as serious is not quite something I'm fond of. I thought what he was referring to wasn't anything to look at, in particular :/

Post 32 - Budja jumps on wolfwagon. I like this move.

Post 35 - RedCoyote. About halfway through he declares the RVS over, something I've learned is a bad move. Other than that, good kickoff post.

Post 44 - Ice9 said: "I do find it interesting that Red Coyote is trying to cover for him." Though I disagree, I'd like to look into this somewhat further.

prose?
i suppose...
now,noone knows
how far we could take it?
best mafia game ever,
had we chosen to make it.

I believe the word would be 'epic'.

Post 52 - Another statement I'd like to look into further.

Post 53+54 - Budja defends by doing something previously noted as a could-be scum technique. Dependent tell, imo.

Post 55 - RC with a little bit of his position on Budja (though virtually meh~)

Post 58 - Something about this, though I can't put a finger on it, just screams "OMG I'M SCUM" to me. Kinda like the "I'm here, but I'm also off to the side where you can't see me." Very dependent tell.

Post 60 - Scratch what I said for 52, Budja's admittance of playing badly takes away that suspicion. I'd have expected someone to walk around it rather than backing off completely. Good move, either way.

Post 67 - fhqwhgads: "I am however, willing to accept Budja's retraction. I just get this funny feeling that he's being the scapegoat here..."
The mention of this is very noteworthy to me.

Post 69 - Sort of helps solidify the scumvibes I have towards fhqwhgads. (This one was by Goatrevolt)

Post 73 - Spoliom with a generally overreacted (imo) post against Ice, saying he jumps to conclusions. Only one or two of the 7~ quotes you have actually support that idea, imo.

Post 77 - BAD, springlullaby. Lurking when you've got time to post is anti-town.

Post 83 - Ice adequate responce to Spoliom 73.

Post 87 - Springlullaby: "I have an opinion alright, but nothing I feel strongly about, so I'm not wasting my breath. For the time being, I'm happy to watch. What you makes of it doesn't concerns me."
Post it anyway, it could give us a moderate idea or two.

Post 88:

Thought you weren't an active lurker? Well now you are. It's such a convenient excuse that you're happy to watch. The next end game I'm in I'll have to be sure to use it.

lolumwot? (aka, what are you saying?)

Post 96 - Spoliom: "Preview Edit: I see Ice9 has managed to call OMGUS on me, refuse to address new arguments against him and demand better answers from those who answered his questions, all at the same time. Quelle surprise."
Valid, though goes two ways - butting heads, as he said, gets us nowhere fast (and gives us mountains of text to read). Going around it and freshening the hunt helps about as much, but has greater growing potential. And better he announce it than flatout ignore your points. Still pro-town thinking, though.

Post 98 - RC: "Opportunistic or not, spring's comment was unacceptable."
So why've you not voted Spring over Budja yet?

Post 105 -

I have to say I don't really like the fhq case.
Fhq said that he considered me a scapegoat after I had stated my actions.
I think he was just trying to stop the town becoming too tunnel-visioned, not that that was a problem in this case. A few people have also at least partly accepted my explanation (e.g Spolium,Lynx). I don't see why fhq should be singled out here

What singled out fhqwhgads for me was how he said it - he thought you were being used as a scapegoat. The general connotation of the post was just off.

Post 131 - Strong recovery, fhqwhgads.


Current list of scum/town:

Azhrei - ~?
Budja - ~town
don_johnson - ~town
fhqwhgads - ~town
Goatrevolt - ~town
Ice9 - ~town
Lynx - ~town
Plonky - ~hello who are you
RedCoyote - ~scum
Spolium - ~scum
springlullaby - ~anti-town town

My scum'd be, then, RedCoyote and Spolium. This is to be looked into later, since at the moment I've not got enough solid case to put up that'd withstand general activity/etc.


Overall, the quote-wars and walls of text are excruciatingly painful to read. I'm aware of the hippocracy, but if we could avoid making every post something that makes China's Great Wall look tiny...

On the Spolium/Ice front, it seems to me from my skimming that it seems to be a bit circular, and getting not too far not too fast.

Any questions for me now?

[Jebus]

EP: Oh, and

Vote: Springlullaby

The reasoning should be obvious.

[Jebus]

Post 32 - Budja jumps on wolfwagon. I like this move.

Can you be more specific? Why do you like it, exactly?

I'm a fan of random wagons being taken somewhere.

Post 35 - RedCoyote. About halfway through he declares the RVS over, something I've learned is a bad move.

Same goes for this - why would you consider such a declaration to be a "bad move"?

It's just a general pattern I've noticed. Again, it was part of the RVS so it doesn't mean much, but I find people who declare the RVS over to turn up scum more oft than not.

Post 67 - fhqwhgads: "I am however, willing to accept Budja's retraction. I just get this funny feeling that he's being the scapegoat here..."
The mention of this is very noteworthy to me.

Noteworthy in what sense?

Noteworthy in the sense of wording and how it was written. It just seemed a little too informed.

I have to say I don't really like the fhq case.
Fhq said that he considered me a scapegoat after I had stated my actions.
I think he was just trying to stop the town becoming too tunnel-visioned, not that that was a problem in this case. A few people have also at least partly accepted my explanation (e.g Spolium,Lynx). I don't see why fhq should be singled out here

What singled out fhqwhgads for me was how he said it - he thought you were being used as a scapegoat. The general connotation of the post was just off.

Can you elaborate on what you consider to be "

the general connotation of the post

"?

The general connotation of the post is how the wording makes it sound. Words are powerful, you know.

Aka, this is the same thing as the vibe you get from a post.

Additionally, perhaps you could explain why you've labeled me as likely scum? You pointed out that I overreacted, and that despite the lack of progress in butting heads with Ice my thinking was nonetheless "pro-town". What is it exactly that makes you think I'm scum?

It's not a 'likely' scum, it's a 'possibly scum'. It's just that I've felt that compared to Ice's arguements, yours have been lacking in the validity that I'd hope for. Of course, I only had time to skim over the more recent anthology-sized posts you two have had, but either way. I'll get some examples, maybe, when I get time.

The Spring vote discrepency has already been highlighted by others, but I'll third the request for an explanation as it is such a significant oversight.

As I said, it should be obvious. How do you get an active lurker back? Pressure them.

I marked spring as anti-town town because in all of the one-two games I've been in with spring, spring has lurked for the most part, and was town both times. I don't at all disregard the possibility of scum, but for now it seems consistent.

[Jebus]

I agree with Lynx in that Jebus's vote was probably a pressure vote.
However saying, "the reasoning should be obvious", leaves this open to interpretation which I really don't like. Could you clarify this Jebus.

The idea was to leave it open to interpretation, it's more potent pressure-wise that way.

Yes, though, it was a pressure-the-lurker vote.

[Jebus]

Jebus, how did FHQ greatly recover in his last post. I feel like a few of your points are fairly vague. Others have asked for clarification on the Spring vote. I think it's just a pressure vote though that isn't that obvious. Who's more suspicious to you Coyote or Spolium?

He posted something that seemed a considerably pro-town explanation for something not-so pro-town, without much fluff or bull in it. It cleared up my suspicions and hanging, unanswered questions, so it was good enough for me.

I'd say Coyote's more suspicious. I'll have to look specifically at him again, but you get it.

And as for the ambiguity - there wasn't really much to work from, I'm just trying to exaggerate things I think should be explored into so that they get noticed.

[Jebus]

"I am however, willing to accept Budja's retraction. I just get this funny feeling that he's being the scapegoat here..."

The above is fhq's post.

Seemingly undecided opinion leaning with benefit of the doubt, coupled with the use of "funny feeling that he's being the scapegoat here..." is what does it. It just seems... off.

Mind you, I've never played with fhqwhgads before.

[Jebus]

RedCoyote. About halfway through he declares the RVS over, something I've learned is a bad move. Other than that, good kickoff post.

I was going to ask you about this, you didn't consider Ice9's vote on Wolf to be a serious vote?

How do you get an active lurker back? Pressure them.

Do you think this will get her to talk when she's already aware that the town is upset with her activity levels?

I did not consider Ice's vote on Wolf to be serious, I would have noted it otherwise.

Having people upset with you is one thing. Being at L-1 is quite another. If she doesn't talk then, she deserves to be lynched or replaced.

[Jebus]

Very good, spring. A wall of text I don't have time to read at the moment, though >.<

unvote

, reading up...

[Jebus]

Whoops, I forgot to

declare my support for Spring's extension request.

+1

And will post my comments to Great Wall of China on the weekend.

[Jebus]

Nice, a deadline. I'll call my shots before that.

Why'd you have to wait till a deadline came up to be useful?

When you deliberately chose to be quiet it was suspicious to me.

QFT, but either way, spring's posted some good stuff.

To Spring: Why'd you wait so long to be useful?

Don post 200 - I disagree with almost all of this, but leave it null at best.

Jebus you unvoted Spring. Now are you back to looking at Coyote and Spolium? Or has anyone else caught your eye?

I've been looking at most everyone, 'cause as I said before, I really didn't have too much, I just accentuated what I had.

Coyote hasn't pinged my scumdar thus far, same for Spolium. Other than that, Don's been placed in my eye by SL, and one of them (if not both) is throwing bull around, I just can't tell who.

A policy lynch should not even be considered at this point. I think we definitely have enough info to pick out a proper lynch candidate.

QFT

i feel that at this point in the game, anyone pushing for a policy lynch is aiming to avoid accountability.

Do you think post 184 is me "pushing" for a policy lynch in order to "avoid accountability" on this game?

Don says something about RC pushing for a policy lynch in the quote (though RC cut that out)

@Don: Did I miss something here?

Post 231 Fhq - Noted vote on spring with little backup that I saw. Dependent tell (?)

Reading back the responses about the amount of mistakes she made, it seems to me these 'notes' weren't made during the game, but rather after the fact.

How so?

SPRING
- lurking for seven and a half pages highly anti-town
- wallpost ambiguous enough to explain away "misinterpretations" if necessary
- "I'm happy to vote players x, y and z" with no vote

The first one is the only major thing I hold against Spring at the moment. The second is possibly a dependent tell, and the third is bizarre enough, imo, to not really be taken anywhere (I mean the lack of vote, not your point).

I'm asking for an extension because I do not want to be lynched by a deadline vote rush. Which given the fact that there are 2 dead votes from lurkers hanging on me is likely to happen.

Dependent tell, maybe (?)

Post 241 Spring - I'm unsatisfied with this explanation for not putting a vote out there originally.

I'm sorry, I am here, I just was writing a huge post but then my computer crashed and I lost everything. I am, suffice to say, a bit upset about this. Will post later.

Null but noted. Very dependent on the promised post, with large chance of not being anything.

Spring and don Discourse as Reenacted by RedCoyote

spring: here are my notes, don seems scummy here because he meant spolium was longwinded
don: no way you are scum for getting that meaning, I really meant this
spring: you mean that you said you meant that? I thought you meant this
don: no I meant this how could you think I meant this? do you mean you think I meant this???
spring: no I think you mean you mean you mean you mean
don: you mean you mean you mean you mean

Almost perfect scale model of a giant wall, though there's a bit more to it than that. Though imo just a lot of dirt back and forth.

seems uneccessary. how is questioning a player on a questionable post "pushing an issue needlessly"? i would think determining whether ort not SL's post was genuine would be an extremely important issue as opposed to needless. also note, he states that don, goat, and lynx are doing the pushing, yet he quotes fhq. i don't think any one of the three players he mentions are piggybacking at all on what fhq wrote. in fact, it seems as though those three players all have separate and solid issues they are trying to settle regarding SL's post. so, for now,

vote: RedCoyote your play has been puzzling to say the least.

Possible distancing?

Don: Support the 'puzzling play' thing?

RedCoyote - Spolium pointed out very recently that he has been over-supportive of Spring and I agree with this. This does seem a bit suspect to me. I don't have anything to add to this and his play earlier showed nothing to give me suspicion. I am interesting in seeing his responce.

In what weight do you hold this?

Thoughts on Spring and Don (maybe~) seem okay



My general scumlist revised:

Azhrei - ~replacement guy talk plz D:
Budja - ~scum
don_johnson - ~scum
fhqwhgads - ~town, though slightly scumming
Goatrevolt - ~town
Ice9 - ~town - come back plox? D:
Lynx - ~town
Plonky - ~hello who are you
RedCoyote - ~scum - look into
Spolium - ~town?
springlullaby - ~town?

Imo, our scum is Budja, don johnson, and RC. Again, to be put away till later.

Overall, the quote-wars and walls of text are excruciatingly painful to read. I'm aware of the hippocracy, but if we could avoid making every post something that makes China's Great Wall look tiny...

So ordering it up:

Budja

- pretty much what everyone's said, plus dependent tells made independent/null based on how he flips (aka info to be gained)

don johnson

- I think he's the bull side of the spring/don arguement.

Spring

- lurking through the beginning of the game, keeping notes private till page 9. Also the spring/don arguement, though that bit weighted lightly.

RedCoyote

- still just a feeling and a bunch of dependent scum tell (mostly on how others flip). I really want to look into this.

fhq

- Was scummy, made a strong recovery in 131, and is starting to scum up (general vibes).

As a semi-opportunistic vote (possible info gained from wagon),

Vote: RC

Other: We've gotten our extension, so we don't really need to worry about the deadline for a bit.

Especially for Octopus, who do you guys have as your top three scum at this moment?

[Jebus]

just to clarify... is this list ordered from who you find most suspicious to whom you find least suspicious? i.e. is budja #1, dj #2, and so on?

Yes, though note that it's all relative, eg on a graph of scumminess, it would be far from linear.

[Jebus]

New on the scene, cards to my chest
Am i towny or do i wear a bullet proof vest
Just through the door, so myself remains unknown
So give me you hand, so I will not be thrown.

Nu to this game...but hey, I wont going pointing my finger just yet. Or Will I?

For a second I took the bullet proof vest bit and almost thought it was a claim xD

Welcome. In your recap post, do me a favor and say who your top three scum are (and more if you've got it ;D)

[Jebus]

Especially for Octopus, who do you guys have as your top three scum at this moment?

In your recap post, do me a favor and say who your top three scum are (and more if you've got it ;D)

Jebus, why are you so eager to obtain a list of those considered most scummy by everyone?

Why do you make it sound like a bad thing? Comparing notes has never hurt.


Also, willing to hammer budja closer to the deadline.

[Jebus]

Why do you make it sound like a bad thing? Comparing notes has never hurt.

Did I make it sound like a bad thing? I'm just asking why you want everyone's top three.

I thought you did, but I can see how you weren't just as easily

I wanted everyone's top three for the sake of comparing notes, so I know that some of my suspicions aren't ridiculous, and so that I've got something to look back on after future lynches/kills.

[Jebus]

I'm very prepared to hammer, I just wasn't voting budja before because we still had a week or so of deadline to go after someone who wasn't already obvscum.

[Jebus]

I'm very prepared to hammer, I just wasn't voting budja before because we still had a week or so of deadline to go after someone who wasn't already obvscum.

If he was so obvscum you should have had your vote on him earlier. This post comes off pretty scummy to me.

Obvscum after believing he was hammered and wishing his scumbuddies luck, which was pretty recent. I didn't hammer before because we still had half a week to look into other people ahead of time, so I thought I'd try that.

I don't expect to be able to post again within the 1 day deadline (which wow, that was faster than I thought), so

unvote, vote: Budja

[Jebus]

I didn't say RC and Spolium hadn't pinged my scumdar at all, I said that they hadn't pinged my scumdar much since my first re-read.

I voted for RC because even though he hadn't done anything noticeably scummy since my first re-read, I still wanted to look into it more.

Who did [spring] protect, and why?

The billion dollar question.

Fixed.


As for the Spring as scum, making a No Kill - I can see how this would work, but I'm content leaving Spring around for now, I think what we've got on Spring is very inconclusive.

[Jebus]

C'mon guys let's just do it.

Slow down there.

[Jebus]

My view on the Spring as the doc: it could be many things.

1> Spring is the doc, and scum did a no-kill to make it look suspicious. I think this is probably not the way this would have gone. Scum forfeit one kill to make one person who is a town role that is slightly scummier than normal have the chance of possibly being mislynched.

2> Spring is scum, and scum did a no-kill to help strengthen Spring's claim. Again, I don't see why this would be a good idea, they forfeit a kill to possibly save the scumbuddy from a lynch. Again, possible is not good odds for them, and wasting the kill only to have a scumbuddy (possibly) lynched, or at least have heavy suspicion, doesn't make too much sense.

3> Spring is the doc, and successfully protected the kill. This makes sense because Spring is still ripe for a mislynch, possibly, and scum would have still gotten a kill, in addition to the possible mislynch.

4> Spring is neither the doc or scum, and was protected by the real doc. I find this one unlikely, but it could also explain it. Why wouldn't scum get rid of a doctor if they had the chance?

5> Spring is neither the doc or scum, and scum no-killed. Same as option 1, pretty much.

6> Spring is neither the doc or scum, and the real doc made a successful kill. Odd enough

I'm thinking it's number three, though I can see how one and four would work out.

I didn't say RC and Spolium hadn't pinged my scumdar at all, I said that they hadn't pinged my scumdar much since my first re-read

This is the quote:

Coyote hasn't pinged my scumdar

thus far

, same for Spolium.

Does "thus far" not mean what I think it does?

Actually, that was just my English acting up. I meant "recently" instead of "thus far", you get it. And really, that still holds true.

[Jebus]

Meh, quote tags screwing me up. That was goat who said that, not spring.

[Jebus]

Be back to post meaningfully tomorrow/tuesday, I haven't disappeared on you guys D:

[Jebus]

Who did [spring] protect, and why?

The million dollar question.

QFT

- Budja's "good luck scumbuddy" post stands out for it's "at least I got you the Doc" comment. In fact, the brief exchange between him and Spring has the faintest hint of a last-minute distancing attempt.

I disagree, I honestly think Spring is more town for that, just based off of Budja's late D1 play. Either way, we really should keep Spring around for a while, and come back to this later if necessary.

I say we just bump off Spring and get some confirmation one way or the other.

Are you serious?

QFT

So who do you think is scum, then?

DO is definitely looking scummish, for the push to lynch Spring.
RC is still in my eye, though my suspicion for him is slowly petering off.
The same can be said about Spolium.
Don Jonson is looking scummy as well, more later.

Also, somehow the thought of a Lynx + Fhq scumteam popped into my head. Nothing to back that up, really, but it makes me wonder.

Jebus- Wasn't a fan of his last few posts at the end of Day 1. The obvscum remarks came off fairly scummy to me. I agree that Goat caught him changing the time frame of his remarks. My gut sees him as town though.

Scumdar pinged here, why would you see me as town if you'd thought I'd done something scummy?

Minor at best, though.

but DO is off the charts with starting an uncounterclaimed-doc-who-may-have-prevented-a-nightkill bandwagon.

The "who may have prevented a nightkill" bit sounds very, very off to me. Not sure why, just does.

DO- Out of all the people on the wagon of Budja, i feel like DO is the most likely to have bussed Budja. He layed down the L-1 vote with little to coment on besides the fact that Budja was pretty obviously scummy. I think, At this point, it was pretty apparent that Budja was gonna be the lynch candidate of the day after my vote. So DO had no trouble dropping the deadweight that Budja had become. His proposal today to lynch the uncountered doctor is pretty scummy. I think it could have just been a poor townie proposal as well though.

Any reasons I posted for voting Budja would have been redundant. Of course there's a good amount of WIFOM in what I'm going to say but, if I was scum would I drop a heavy vote like that without giving at least a paragraph or two of bullshit to prop it up? I could have at least taken the time to quote a few of the others on the bandwagon and then reiterated them. But I did not. The case against Budja was so self-apparent, and I really shouldn't even have to defend it since, hey guess what he was scum. I think if anything, what you claimed was scummy in my vote was the least scummy aspect of it.

Point is weak at best. It's still a good thing to put a little of your own reasoning with a heavy vote, 'cause sure scum'd put down that vote without much reasoning.

Considering that most of the town has shown disapproval for your plan to lynch the claimed doctor, are you still supportive of it? Is there any alternate suspects you have?

I still think it would be interesting. It obviously isn't going to happen, so no use floundering in the mud.

unvote

The general lack of other suspects, coupled with the continued "I still think we should wagon the uncountered+claimed doc" makes me wtf.

nothing yet

This bothers me. Is this really what you think, or are you just lazy?

Jebus here feels very broken, very scatterbrained. I don't know if I would go so far as to call him hypocritical, just very peculiar I guess. I think Jebus is the kind of player who changes his mind easily.

Not really, it's just that I typed that as I went through the readthrough, and my opinions changed as more info came in. Sort of like averaging numbers where the first few happen to be outliers. Also, one zero can bring a group of 100's way down.

Also note that this post was done in the same way.

let me put a stop to this silliness.

role claim: town watcher
night 1 target: Red Coyote
results: confusing

i misinterpreted my ability. i thought its properties were more akin to the role "tracker" and have been back and forth with the mod as to my results. My first return PM stated that RC was home alone all night. when asked to clarify i got the response that as watcher i only see who targets my target and am given no information as to alignment. however, based on my continuing conversation i am leaning towards RC being town despite his entirely crap argument. has anyone here been watcher before? mods answers were puzzling to me and i have been wrestling with the results.

I've been a watcher before. When you watch someone, you see who targeted that person.

This opposed to tracking, where you see who the person you targeted targeted.

I'ma wait for your results before I say what I think.

I am very much confused....due to the fact I forgot I was in this game...Opps

lolumwot?

============

Results heard, I actually almost completely believe the claim. The one little detail that really throws me off is that "watcher" or "tracker" is a relatively safe claim, it could easily be switched to the other if a counter shows up because they are so similar and often confused.

Overall, though, I'll take it.



Currently, the only one I really want to pressure is DO. So

Vote: DO

RC, as I said, has started to look town to me, so I see no reason to go in that direction.
On a whim, I'd like to look at Lynx.
I also really think Spring is town in general, though the anti-town is starting to move back, in the form of inactivity.
Don Jonson is certainly scummy, though in lieu of the claim, I'm very much willing to hold off.


Also, a few questions:

-Spring, Who did you protect? Why would you withhold this info in the first place?
-Hohum, anything you'd like to say about Ice's play?
-Sekinj, what do you think of Fhq?

[Jebus]

No comment to sekinj's response, it was exactly what I expected.

Spring, Who did you protect? Why would you withhold this info in the first place?

Again I ask. There's no reason not to say, unless you're not actually a doc.

[Jebus]

Spring, Who did you protect? Why would you withhold this info in the first place?

Again I ask. There's no reason not to say, unless you're not actually a doc.

personally, i disagree. though it

may

help to know who spring protected, spring may have good reasons for not saying. obviously, as the game progresses, town will most likely want this knowledge, but to say "there's no reason" for her not to say is incorrect. i mentioned before that she "may have" prevented an nk. unless there is other reason to not trust her i will accept her judgement at this time.

i will post more when i am through my reread.

So, what'd be a good reason for not sharing this? I can't think of any, and I'm honestly starting to have second thoughts about the claim.

Spring, why would you withhold this, and what would you say if I went at you saying your claim is bull?

Also, sekinj/spring argument starting to heat up, I think we should get the fire department over here D:

[Jebus]

I'm also quite intrigued why you cannot think of a reason I am withholding the information.

Do enlighten me.

[Jebus]

I'm also quite intrigued why you cannot think of a reason I am withholding the information.

Do enlighten me.

No seriously, I can't think of any reason why a claimed doctor wouldn't share their results.

[Jebus]

I'm also quite intrigued why you cannot think of a reason I am withholding the information.

Do enlighten me.

No seriously, I can't think of any reason why a claimed doctor wouldn't share their results.

Again, why wouldn't the doc share their target? I honestly can't think why, and this is getting aggrivatingly confusing >.<

[Jebus]

That I would be very interested in knowing why you think my claim is bull.

I could reply 'do enlighten me first' here, but I fear the time for flippancy is past. The deadline has ruined all my fun.

And it seems to be time for action anyway.

I however demand an answer to the above, as it strikes me as very peculiar that you couldn't think of a reason.

I'm still debating whether or not I actually think your claim is bull, so that part will have to wait, if it comes at all. I understand now the meaning of withholding the info, though I think the 'clogged with speculation debate' was unavoidable either way, we still ended up with some, and in that respect your first reason seems illogical.

The second, however, makes a lot of sense now, and sorry to have pushed you for this info.


What bothers me, though, is why sekinj/don johnson hadn't at least made a theoretical as to why. Don especially, since it was he whom I first aimed the question at.

[Jebus]

Also, 529 came directly after Spring's 528 (a matter of seconds), so ignore that please.

[Jebus]

Jebus, you are not answering my question.

I asked you to justify why you think my claim is bull. What are you "debating".

Whether or not I actually think it is. At the time I wrote it, and at the moment, it's just hypothetical.

And you would have speculated because I'd asked, and if it has to do with watching mindset, that doesn't make a difference at this time, being so close to deadline.

[Jebus]

]

Jebus

, Are you still questioning Spring's claim?

Yes, now I'm at 7:3 in false:true ratio, in thought.

Debating aside, here's why I think it's probably a load of garbage.

Spring

Post 77 is her first post, which says "Look at me, I'm lurking."
For the rest of Page 4, she continues to point out this fact.
Basically, continues this behavior until Page 8, post 185. From there, Spring's activity booms, and Spring starts to look very pro town. Then we get to page 14. I suggest you read this a few times, I know I have.

And well I guess I'll claim then..

I am the Doctor.

That was on the end of page 13.

The claim itself doesn't really ping anything, it's something said directly afterwards.

Good luck to my

scumbuddy

. At least I got you the Doc .

Bye now.

Significant or not?

The fact that Spring points this post out is a real ping in my head. It speaks to me, saying "Hey, spring really wants you to look at this!"

Pretty much every post Spring made on that page comes off as scummy to me.


Now, I've got a few things to say further.

Firstly, I want to point out DO. He wanted to test the doc claim by lynching/wagoning the doc. The entire thought on DO is based on This Post.. Just the general idea that he seems to know that Spring's not the doctor. I really wish DO was here to comment.

Second,

1> Spring is the doc, and scum did a no-kill to make it look suspicious. I think this is probably not the way this would have gone. Scum forfeit one kill to make one person who is a town role that is slightly scummier than normal have the chance of possibly being mislynched.

2> Spring is scum, and scum did a no-kill to help strengthen Spring's claim. Again, I don't see why this would be a good idea, they forfeit a kill to possibly save the scumbuddy from a lynch. Again, possible is not good odds for them, and wasting the kill only to have a scumbuddy (possibly) lynched, or at least have heavy suspicion, doesn't make too much sense.

3> Spring is the doc, and successfully protected the kill. This makes sense because Spring is still ripe for a mislynch, possibly, and scum would have still gotten a kill, in addition to the possible mislynch.

4> Spring is neither the doc or scum, and was protected by the real doc. I find this one unlikely, but it could also explain it. Why wouldn't scum get rid of a doctor if they had the chance?

5> Spring is neither the doc or scum, and scum no-killed. Same as option 1, pretty much.

6> Spring is neither the doc or scum, and the real doc made a successful kill. Odd enough

Based off of DO's posting, I'd air to say that either 2 or 4 is the right one. The rest seem much more unlikely now.


What's held me up from saying it is garbage, though, is the general behavior of spring. Generally anti-town, though not scummy enough to be in the spotlight is a moderately good behavior for power roles, it keeps them from being the lynch target. So basically, well Spring has acted relatively pro-town, she lurked quite a bit to dirty her record in this game to avoid being a spotlight-pro-town player.



Also, even though DO is not here right now, I think the right thing to do here would be to go after DO/replacement.

And assuming he is replaced, we could probably get a deadline extension.

[Jebus]

FOS: Jebus

for pushing the doc results though. Playing ignorant doesn't fool me, the reasons for withholding has been discussed earlier in this thread (although not at length).

It's hard to play ignorant when in fact you

are

ignorant. I don't remember seeing anyone discuss reasons for withholding the doc results before, please point this out somewhere?

[Jebus]

And you would have speculated because I'd asked, and if it has to do with watching mindset, that doesn't make a difference at this time, being so close to deadline.

I don't understand what you are saying. Please re explain.

Sekinj would have made speculations about why you were withholding your protection because watching for reactions on it doesn't make much difference, being so far away from that and so close to deadline.

Really, you guys have been beating around the bush as to why for a while, with me on the outside, getting more and more confused >.<

[Jebus]

Seriously, you two, cool it. This is becoming like the Ice/Spolium bout earlier on.

unvote, Vote: Spring

Major ping here, you were so damn intent on argueing with sekinj that you didn't even make a single comment on why I thought your claim was bull. After all, you'd been so eagerly asking it.

[Jebus]

Seriously, you two, cool it. This is becoming like the Ice/Spolium bout earlier on.

unvote, Vote: Spring

Major ping here, you were so damn intent on argueing with sekinj that you didn't even make a single comment on why I thought your claim was bull. After all, you'd been so eagerly asking it.

Jebus, what is the purpose of your vote?

Are you voting me to signify that you think I'm scum?


What is scummy in my focusing my gaze on sekinj at the moment?

And to answer, I have read your reply. I find the whole post to be nonsensical.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 15#1550015

1. You offer very little explanation as to why you think my claim is bull. From what I can gather:
a. Explain why my pointing out budja's post is scummy? what 'look at me' is supposed to mean?
b. Then you go on to say that 'pretty everything on that page' is scummy from me without explaining why.

2. The rest of your post I don't even understand. You base an entire read on DO who presumably "seems to know" that I'm not doc. What does that even mean?

I wanted to avoid this, but I really couldn't come up with any good reason to refute your claim. So fine, I'll come out and say the real reason. I'm the doc. You are not. At first I didn't want to have three doc claims in the air, so I held off. I thought Spring was pretty scummy then, but we already had Budja. I realize that in retrospect I probably should have claimed then, but meh, it worked out how I wanted. I protected Spring, on the off chance that she was town. I thought at first that I'd stopped the kill and that Spring was town, but now I'm having second thoughts.


tl;dr - I'm the doc, Spring is not.

[Jebus]

And yeah, my post trying to say your claim was bull was bull in itself. Good for teh lulz.

[Jebus]

Lol what?

Ok. Let's do this slowly. I can actually see if you are doc, why you would have voted Budja instead of counter-claiming me since he claimed scum.

But if you are doc, what made you change your mind about you stopping the kill?

I'm not sure I understand this at all. Re-phrase?

nice

And what does that mean?

I could take a guess

[Jebus]

"nice" as in "nice, you've just screwed youself over"

Though I'm not sure who it's referring to :/

[Jebus]

You say that you are doc and thought me town because you protected me. What in meantime made you change your mind?

A whim, actually. This, and the fact that I'd screwed up as a townie pretty badly, I thought :/

Also, your tone is telling me that you're publicly showing you're not the doctor. Is this accurate?

[Jebus]

No comment to sekinj's response, it was exactly what I expected.

What did you mean by this? I am asking now, because before I just thought you were scum, but now I am considering your claim.

I had no comment to what you thought of fhq because it's what I expected you (or anyone else) to say about it.

Jebus: You thought Spring was a townie falseclaiming??

I gave it a 20% chance, and thought it a decent move because of the possibility of a scum no-kill.

And for now, I just feel like we need to go somewhere now, and I'd already messed up, so I claimed. I do think DO knew ahead of time that Spring was not a doc, he was the one who suggested that scum did that gambit.

I also highly doubt the idea of two doctors, I've never seen it done, and the terribleness for mafia as the amount of doctors rises also rises exponentially.

[Jebus]

Rhyme scheme for my PM is AABB. The first couplet matches with what you said, the second couple ends on words rhyming with "tie" or "fly". Specifically, the second line of the second couple is another word for 'the end of a persons life'.

I couldn't tell you the meter, though, my English poetry was never very strong :/

Does this match up?


Also, I support lynching DO or Don Jonson. Why massclaim so early?

[Jebus]

I wasn't really involved in Bus Stop, and as a mod I'd never put in more than one doctor. I actually hate the role myself, almost more than the vanilla townie. Though that's all subjective.

I'm going to guess that it's number two. And either way, I believe you for now, so

unvote, Vote: DO

[Jebus]

The first rhyme you gave matched out perfectly with my PM, and you say mine checks out with yours.

I'm not really sure why I'd go against it. I've found you generally pro-town till now :/

[Jebus]

What really sticks out to me is how easily Jebus accepts spring's claim as Doctor while thinking she is still townie... and vice versa really. All because their poem PMs are similar? I would imagine everyone got a poetic role PM.

Yeah, but having the same rhyme scheme, and have the rhyming words match up, just seems a little too similar to be different.

Jebus, when spring cc'd Budja's claim, what was the first thing you thought? Did you really think that she was a townie trying to protect the "real" doctor? If you thought she was scum, you didn't think so for very long on account of the protection, so sometime between when she claimed and when the day ended you considered her to be town. Just, walk me through your way of thinking, explain to me as best you can why you decided to save spring.

First, when I saw Spring's counterclaim of Budja, I thought that was a townie trying to get the lynch in quickly. Then I thought about it, and it made sense that Spring was either the scum's prime target, or Spring was scum. So I targeted Spring on the off chance that she was town, and looks like it worked. However, I do not think that this clears Spring by any means, and still have that little voice in the back of my head saying she's scum. Again, though, I'm willing to wait till later to see if that comes to anything.

[Jebus]

Mod, could you fix the quote tag there D:

Thanks.

[Jebus]

My thoughts in a very small nutshell

DO - Scummy, via saying to lynch the claimed doc in the form of Spring
don_johnson - I don't really buy the claim, though we'll see. I've got an idea, anyway.
fhqwhgads - Leaning town, haven't seen anything noticeably scummy.
Goatrevolt - Very townie, though somewhat inactive.
hohum - Ice was very townie, I thought, but I've not seen any of hohum to know.
Lynx The Antithesis - I'm wary of this one, though I see no harm in keeping him around.
RedCoyote - Seemed scummy at first, but is growing increasingly townie since.
sekinj - My gut says town, but I'm wary. Minimal read.
Spolium - Scummy at first, and is currently nuetral.
springlullaby - I'm very wary of this one. Though the role PM's seem to match up, I'm not quite sure I'm completely willing to trust Spring. Aside from that, Spring seems pro-town.


I'm waiting to see what Rhinox says, but I think DO/Rhinox is the right way to go.

[Jebus]

Sorry, was at World Baseball Classic :3

Will get in a good post later...

[Jebus]

Unvote

I'm not sure who to vote anymore. DO definitely would have been my lynch choice, but Rhinox has greatly recovered from that.

Sekinj no lynch seems a tad scummy to me, though I can sort of see the position in that sense.

Fhq hasn't done anything notably scummy recently, either.

So yeah, clueless.

[Jebus]

I'm extremely reluctant to hammer Fhq in this case, as I've said he's not been very scummy at all.

I also am noting that Tony said he wouldn't end day till the replacement came in anyway, so we may have a bit of time...

[Jebus]

So I'm dead
Pumped full of lead
It was fun
But I'm going to bed.

Or without the flavour, bawwwwwwww

[Jebus]

'Twas fun, though bah that mafia won.

Never really expected Goatrevolt to be part of the mafia, though