Open 124 (2:10 Bugs Bunny -- GAME OVER) before 761

[madeofphail]

Vote: millar13

Reason:
Millar13 said in post 6:

Hate people that self vote.

Often a trait of either someone with a power-role or mafia.

Therefore.

Vote: Grimmy

Millar13 said in post 17:

However, voting for yourself is never a good stance in Day one. Can often be effective in the day 3 though.

Contradiction: Millar13 states that self-voting is a scumtell, then says it is helpful.

Self-voting is never useful to your faction. Millar13 is encouraging self-voting to the common faction,which is town. In conclusion post 17 is encouraging anti-town acts, and is therefore anti-town.

[madeofphail]

Oh, xoops, my bad. I was only counting town players in the player count. Please disregard my stupid mistake.

If we disregarded mistakes, we would be throwing away evidence

[madeofphail]

@Giuseppe: I was just making a side comment, I realise that a slight numerical error in this case does not make one scum.

@Zachrules: I am confused as to how self voting will help in hunting the doc.

Side note: Doc should never out himself in this game. He/she is the only pro-town power role in this game (or power role at all for that matter). If he/she reveals himself/herself that practically assures that person to be nightkilled.

We do not want the doctor to die. The doctor helps us. The scum want to kill the doctor. Thus, it could be said that attempts to root out the doctor are anti-town.

[madeofphail]

ok, we got WAAAAAAYYY off track here.
Millar said way back in post 68:

I like that you think I am mafia...as clearly I need to learn to play town better. Still never played a game as scum yet imo

and that is supposed to clear you of suspicion?

Millar13 said way back in post 73:

However, townies often piggy back each other.

Scum not so much.

this is just my opinion, but couldn't scum piggy back townies. therefore using this argument to prove that piggybackers are town doesnt seem legitimate to me.

Millar13 said way back in post 80:

wow I admit i am scum....vote for me
_________________
DAMN B*TCH! I ordered your ass

not a single, sensible reason to claim scum in this game. if you are telling the truth, we should lynch you. if you are lying we should lynch you for lying.

Millar13 said in post 86:

So roflcopter and Guiseppe both jumped the gun. Clearly I am not scum lol

But I am now convinced one of you two is

so....jumping on an obvious scumtell is scummy? If you can back your argument, you may just have dug yourself out of the hole using logic, and pro-town actions.

Millar13 said in post 124:

i self voted...coz i don't see how I am going to survive anyway. I call it assisted suicide

I call it bad sportsmanship, if you accept your death as an enevitability, try to make some good come out of it. I made the mistake of not trying to help and self voting in my first game.

Ok, as a summary, I think millar is scum because he has been acting rather irrationally.

It seems to be a consensus that empking should be lynched through meta. I say Nyet. The guy hasnt said two words on the post. We have no evidence to prove that he is scum in this game. A townie, no matter how anti-town is still a mislynch. We shouldn't use his meta in this game.

[madeofphail]

Cephrir said in post 186:

Are you kidding me? How could anyone possibly be suspicious of a desire to lynch millar? He's like the scummies thing that has ever happened.

I conceed that he is the scummiest thing that has ever happened, but it is still game D1, and rl Day two.

I believe that we should squeeze all the info we can out of suspected scum while we can, so that they still serve a purpose that is pro-town. Im not saying we let them live long term, I'm saying that we keep millar as our best-bet D1 lynch, but lets have him say somethign relevent and hopefully squeeze some info out of him. If he's scum, he knows something that we do not.

Millar13 said in post 146 (as we all know)

Cephrir for DOC

Hypothetical situation: Millar is scum, he suspects a player of being the doc, and tries to tell him scum buddy his opinion of the best target before he gets lynched. [/hypothetical]

This (a mon avis) has a few problems with it.
1). I said in post 31

Doc should never out himself in this game. He/she is the only pro-town power role in this game (or power role at all for that matter). If he/she reveals himself/herself that practically assures that person to be nightkilled.
We do not want the doctor to die. The doctor helps us. The scum want to kill the doctor. Thus, it could be said that attempts to root out the doctor are anti-town.

I identified outing a pro-town power role as a scumtell, yet he still performed this detrimental act to the town, further identifying himself as scum. Most animals use Risk vs. Reward to help in descision making (yes, I group humans with animals). Im pretty sure He wouldnt do such a scummy action without having a very strong basis for believing that Cephrir is doc. So, (at least from Millar13's point of view) Cephrir is acting different from what a townie would do. I wouldnt put it beyond Millar13 to make a mistake, but isn't it our duty to investigate the reason for people's actions?

[madeofphail]

AndyTony said in post 188:

but I'm not "pretty much saying we shouldn't lynch scum"

I'm saying we should NEVER lynch town no matter how stupid or whiny they are.

Its not just the whining, We are very sure that he is scum. The emotion is useless, but the other scumtells are not. It is nearly certain that he is scum.

AndyTony also said in that same post:

And I'm saying we should KEEP hiim around if he's scum, because the only thing we do know is that he's a weak player, and his weakness will either prove a poor towny, or a shitty scum that will lead us to his partner - - I don't want to lose any opportunities. If he's town, he doesn't die and town heeps higher numbers - if he's scum, we can milk him for all he's worth.

Scum should be lynched while you have the chance. The less scum there are, the quicker it is to winning. Leaving

any

known scum alive is anti-town because given our one lynch a day limit, it gives the scum an extra day. Furthermore, if there's only one scum, it pressures that person.

Millar is scum, but his usefulness as a source has run itself out. My proof is his last couple of posts:

Post 139:

I like this game its exciting...I now how witches felt during the Spanish inquisition

Post 141:

i should learn to keep stumn and lurk like an elf

Post 143:

Elves lurk don't you know anything....GAWD!

Post 146: (this is the only relevent lead that he's given us since he gave up trying to stay alive).

lol clearly im the only person here who had an ex-girl friend obsesed with elves, goblins and underworld creatures lol.

Cephrir for DOC

Post 162 (where he starts to shut himself in and not say anything of significance):

To Kill A Towny On Day On...Oh such fun

Post 175:

To kill a towny is too kill a mocking bird.

Post 189:

What if you don't squeeze any more out of the citrus fruit, only to find you killed a pear rather than an orange?

In conclusion, this "orange" as he puts it, is out of juice.I don't think we'll get anything else out of him, or at least out of his posts. The only possible thing i've noticed is kind of a stretch on what could be considered real evidence. His new signature.

Mafia Scum






Joined: 09 Feb 2009


Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 7:28 pm Post subject: 189

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What if you don't squeeze any more out of the citrus fruit, only to find you killed a pear rather than an orange?
_________________
I hate when the Mafia turn on you....you know who you are!

He is definately whining. But this might give us a link!

Hypothetical: His scum buddy is not under suspicion right now. And to avoid suspicion, the scum buddy realizes that he might just have to vote his own buddy to avoid suscpicion because he has become a liability at this point. As long as millar is alive, he

could

leak info about his buddy. the buddy doesnt want that, he has to silence his partner, before he outs his buddy. As soon as the buddy did this, millar felt betrayed, and changed his sig. None of us know at which point he changed his sig, but if it is after a certain person attacled him, then we might just have our scum buddy. Sadly, sigs do not leave a record of when they were last changed, so we don't know the exact time when he changed it. He seemed to have changed it today though, or at least later than page 6. [/hypothetical]

[madeofphail]

Millar13 said in post 204:

Claimed scum....to "make people feel ironically happy with themselves"

And when I announced Doc, did I actually confirm that is who I thought was the real Doc? Nope

1). how would it make people feel ironically happy with themselves?
2). You say what you think. You are held to your word, you anounced the doc, so you said who you thought was doc. Yes, you confirmed who you thought was doc.

[madeofphail]

yes, you are at L-1, and im sorry for pissing you off. This is a game, and i dont want to be an asshole and piss people off, thats not the goal of the game.

[madeofphail]

Giuseppe, thank you for the complement.

Dejkha wrote on post 216:

madeofphail wrote:
Hypothetical situation: Millar is scum, he suspects a player of being the doc, and tries to tell him scum buddy his opinion of the best target before he gets lynched. [/hypothetical]

I identified outing a pro-town power role as a scumtell, yet he still performed this detrimental act to the town, further identifying himself as scum.


The hypothetical could happen, but the only problem is that there was no reason for him to suspect anyone of being Doc, let alone Ceph who didn't have very many posts at the time, and was the newest person on Millars wagon when the statement was made, which hints at an aggravated player.

All I've seen from Millar are the obvious actions of a pissed off player.

@dejkha: So, you expect me to believe that a player would randomly claim someone is a doc, highlighting this person to the mafia,(possibly trying to out the doc?) and be a townie? Dochunting is what scum would do. Not town. This makes me almost 100% sure that he is scum.


[/quote]

[madeofphail]

By highlighting, I mean identifying as a target, or drawing attention to that person.

dejkha stated in post 219:

No, I think you just want him to be lynched because he's an easy target. Either that or you're just not open to suggestion and don't care about other options. He wasn't dochunting and the obvious random doc claiming makes it obvious. There's no reason for most, if not all, of his actions.

If he flips scum, ok you were right and as such I shouldn't be giving him the BoDT, but if you're wrong I can/will see this as very opportunistic (especially since you claim to be 100% sure).

So, am I to believe that because I do not share your version of the story, that I do not care about other options? I have considered that he is a townie, but there is alot of evidence against him.
You seem to be saying that we should all just completely forget about everything he is saying, and wipe the slate clean because he is acting irrationally? I have a serious problem with that action. People need to be help accountable for their actions. If they aren't, then what evidence do we have?

O.k. so if we go by what you are saying it plays out like this:
Millar13 does a slightly scummy action in the beginning, and starts to panic. The emotional stress causes him to do random things, and cease to help the town. He cannot be held accountable for these posts because he was having an emotional breakdown.

[madeofphail]

Zwet said in post 227:

millar was too erratic to be left alive.

And yet you did not vote him....why?
If you felt so strongly that a utility lynch was in order, why didn't you follow through with it and remove a player who was not beneficial to the town?

2nd matter: empking said in post 243:

dejkha wrote:

I'll be rereading the thread and posting later.

Andy, I don't think you're scummy for hammer, but don't argue with Emp. It's a fight you can't win. But that's only because ignorance is bliss, retarded, Empking. So wait until someone else has an opinion on the matter.

Vote: Emp unless I find someone scummier in my reread.

Active Lurking.

So, backtracking to examine the facts, and make an educated decision is lurking, and therefore anti town? I shouldn't have to explain why that assertion is wrong.

Ok, we also know that roflcopter ws one of the people who voted for millar, so if the scum knew he was doing them a favor for eliminating town, why would they kill him? I see a couple of options:
1). by confusing and sidetracking the town, millar was actually pro-scum because he threw us off of their trail. so, rofl was being pro-town through assisting a utility lynch. (utility lynches were also the original reasoning behind lynching empking).
2). Roflcopter made solid enough arguments that he seemed more dangerous than the other players. therefore, he had to go.
3). Rofl said something that made the scum believe he was the doctor.

If

#1 is true, the possibility occured to me that several people wanted to utility lynch empking. If people were to press that and empking was town, the mafia would have no reason to kill the people that would utility lynch him, because that would be more people willing to contribute their vote to a mislynch.

If empking was scum however

, The scum would want to lynch the people who would lynch Empking for utility purposes.

If #2 or #3 is true, then we should examine the posts of the deceased and see what he was doing that scared the scum, and continue to follow the line that rofl was drawing before he was taken from us before his time.

[madeofphail]

So dejkha, if i understand correctly your accusation of giuseppe is based on these things.
1). he does not really post any real material, he just kinda leeches off of other people's arguments.
2). he was opportunistic about voting millar
[/]

On the matter of the mislynch on D1:

If I were an optimist (which I am not). I would say to look on the bright side and say that we would see the mislynch of millar as a utility lynch. This means that while we did not lynch scum, we lynched an anti-town (or similarly useless) player.

I voted for millar because I thought he was scum, you voted for emp because you thought he was a bad player dejkha argued that millar was town and was just being a bad player. So if we were to look at that way, millar and emp are in the same classification or players. Yet, dejkha defended millar, and condemned empking.

I don't understand why you would do something like that.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

AndyTony - 2 - Empking, Zachrulez

Giuseppe - 1 - dejkha

Empking - 0
Grimmy - 0
dejkha - 0
zwetschenwasser - 0
Pablo Molinero - 0
Zachrulez - 0
Cephrir - 0
madeofphail - 0

Not Voting: zwetschenwasser, millar13, AndyTony, madeofphail, Giuseppe, roflcopter, Cephrir, Pablo Molinero, Grimmy

With 10 players, it takes 6 to Lynch.

[madeofphail]

Ok, now back to my main point. What made roflcopter such a prime target for scum? The first thing rofl did was want to vote empking.
Roflcopter's posts (at least some of them which may be useful).

Post 12:

so lets lynch empking today guys

vote: empking

the next time he posted wasn't until post 60 (after emp had 5 votes, and millar had three).

cephrir wrote:
2. It's not really a good idea to point out who you think is protown, IMO.


you are wrong. and in this setup, its especially a good idea to say who you think is pro town. if enough townspeople agree on the same person being town, it almost forces the mafia's nightkill, because there is zero chance of that person being mislynched. and hey, look what the only power role we have is?

empirical evidence for why stating your opinions on who is town is a good thing: crackers! mafia

if emp is scum, either giuseppe or zwets is his partner

lets hurry up and lynch the guy

Note: he accused empking as scum, and Hos'ed zwet and giuseppe (giuseppe has more evidence on him at this point in time).

Post #62:

by the way, this lynch isn't just because empking displays a pattern of being a particularly hard headed and useless player.

this:

Empking wrote:
Vote: Grimmy - For self-voting.

is a cop out, and something that is more likely to come from scum than from town. therefore, emp has a higher than random chance of being scum, making him a good lynch.

note: Providing actual evidence against empking. Backing his vote up.

Post #65:

grimmy and zachrules are town

yes, millar, you are also more likely than random to be scum, you would be my second choice for a lynch today, but i think empking is a better lynch, and i'm hopeful that i won't have to compromise

Note: Aknowledges millar's actions. Decides that he is just being random, and still persists with empking. Furthermore, declares two people as town faction.

Post #69:

grimmy because self voting comes from town much more often than scum in my experience, and because both of the people who voted him were really scummy and opportunistic

zachrules is a gut read

note:He believes that the people who voted millar were scum. Also makes his belief that zach is town faction now has no real evidence.

Post #76:

look at it this way - self voting, in the current meta environment, draws a shitload of negative attention. there will always be somebody willing to vote you just for doing it. mafia don't want any attention drawn to them, let alone negative attention, especially in a setup like this where the best thing mafia could do is blend into the background because there aren't any investigative roles to suddenly out them. therefore, self voting is not something i expect to come from mafia in this game.

sure, in future games enough people could pick up on this fact and the meta could shift, but in this instance i am willing to totally write grimmy off as a suspect based on his self vote and the reaction to it from empking and millar.

note: asserts that people who self-vote are town, backing his claim that grimmy is town faction. And that people who didn't do anything about the self-lynch are probably scum. not really clear on if he accuses empking or millar.
Post #77:

millar13 wrote:
Quote:
roflcopter

"because both of the people who voted him were really scummy and opportunistic"




Can I just say, that I don't think two mafia members would actually vote like that. And directly piggy back the other....wouldn't be the wiser move.

However, townies often piggy back each other.

Scum not so much.


which is why i didn't list you as a likely empking partner

Note: still thinks empking is scum, but doesnt believe that millar is his scum buddy.

Post #79:

giuseppe wrote:
Any real reason you're setting me and Zwet up to be lynched? I hardly say that stopping a quick lynch of Empking qualifies as defending him overtly. Let him actually have a chance to be scummy before you lynch him, at the very least.


setting you up to be lynched implies that i stated i would bet you are scum regardless of what emp turns out to be, which is not true. my phrasing was deliberately conditional, because you are overtly defending emp and directly trying to stall his lynch, which is what i expect to see from a scumpartner in a two man scumteam.

zwets on the other hand joined the wagon, but suddenly lost his nerve for it when it hit lynch minus one, which, based on meta, is very unlike him, so it reads like he was distancing from emp.

Note: still pressing that emp is actually scum, no meta involved. Asserts that giuseppe is his likely partner, due to him defending empking. The post right after, millar claims scum, and giuseppe says:

Vote: Millar13

Don't claim scum if you don't mean it. Lynch all scum, lynch all liars.

Back to the rofl posts:

Post #83: (on the subject of giuseppe defending emp):

this is not what i accused you of, and this is not what you're doing. you're not backing out on any lynch, you're actively trying to prevent a lynch..........he has posted enough to get a read on him, his vote was not random, so it has bearing on his alignment. if town, you shouldn't out and out defend a player, especially based on so little, because if he is scum you're doing the town a great disservice by setting up your own future lynch.

then he switches to millar is post 84....then in post 88, back to empking....and post #90:

i am willing to lynch either empking or millar today

Post #101:

Giuseppe wrote:
roflcopter wrote:
Giuseppe wrote:
By your logic, if Empking comes up scum, I can't be town. Which couldn't be true, from my perspective, because I am a pro-town player. Thus, if I'm to agree with you, Empking must be town.

please show me where i said if empking comes up scum you CAN'T be town

oh, wait, that didn't happen

your point fails


So, what was your initial point in setting all that up? If you're going to assert that I'm scum if Emp is scum, at least be absolutely convinced...

my point was that you are VERY LIKELY to be scum if emp is scum.

zwets is also LIKELY to be scum in this case. i was stating my belief that if we lynch emp-scum, the final scum is one of you two. that is all.

your level of concern with my interest in you is far disproportionate to what i was actually saying, since it wouldn't even matter if emp were to come up town.

its almost like you know that emp won't come up town, and that if we lynch emp today you're totally, unconditionally fucked
_________________

Note: pressing for emp vote to find if giuseppe is buddy.Also accuses zwet. points out that giuseppe feels pressured by rofl, and gets worried and acts out just a little too much.

i say everything i suspect when i suspect it, rather than possibly taking it to the grave with me

Note: Yays!

post 110:

piggybacking emp's vote on grimmy and then trying to argue with no basis that such an action is unlikely to come from scum, defending with appeal to emotion, attacking with burden of proficiency, and oh yeah, claiming scum

we're lynching millar today
_________________

note: thought millar was scum.

Alright, this post is getting way too long with the post, so im gunna cut it short here and summarize it as best I can. Rofl was pointing the gun at emp, then identified giiuseppe and zwet as scum buddies. Giuseppe gets nervous and starts counterattacking.

Rofl was on to something, I believe that this was the reason that the scum killed him. This, along with Dejkha's massive post, seems like a good enough reason to think that giuseppe is scum.

Vote: Giuseppe

[madeofphail]

grimmy for one.

[madeofphail]

Happy Birthday Andy Tony

! 3/24/09
(sorry I can't make it pretty colors, I would get modkilled for that)

[madeofphail]

Alright, So from what I am to understand here, the people accusing me of being scum are using the following evidence:

1).my post which was against millar when I (according to pretty much everyone else) incorrectly saw a contradiction. It was wrong of me to say there was a contradiction in his statements, what I should have stated was that I do not believe that self-voting is helpful in any situation. With that, I voted millar. Millars further actions seemed to incriminate him further, and I thought that I had no reason to remove my vote, or my suspicion of him. To put it simply, I used my vote when I saw a scumtell (i probably was jumping the gun there). And his persisting actions labeled him as scum in my eyes, or at least anti-town.

If I understand correctly, you either think I am scum because I jumped on the bandwagon. To which I say nay. I voted for him early, and simply had no reason to change, or unvote, as he kept incriminating himself.

If

one were to put it comically one would say, "Phail was voting for millar before it was cool.", which is to say before Millar claimed scum.

2). I put a vote on Giuseppe because Rofl was killed, and the people he was gunning for were emp, and giuseppe. Therefore, I believe that the mafia killed him to eliminate accusations against them. I now realize that what I am implying is that the mafia are stupid, and if they were giuseppe and/or empking, they would only be putting more suspicion on themselves, and this is not what they would do. Therefore, my post which "justified" voting for giuseppe is invalid proof. I did not think that far through. My error in judgement is directing negative attention to me.

If I understand correctly. you believe that I am scum trying to misdirect the town into voting giuseppe because

If

I was scum, I killed rofl and am currently trying to frame giuseppe. I made an error in judgement, which is my no means excusable. My first error in judgement contributed to a mislynch, and I now fear that my judgement in this day may cause yet another mislynch. I do not want a mislynch, and since my reasoning was insufficient there is no reason for me to persist my vote.

Unvote

[madeofphail]

I think (If we are really going to press this, because If we are not, then we are just wasting time). we should treat this like the basics of an american court trial, because it is basically the same thing. We have the defense and defendant (dejkha), the prosecution (zwet), and a jury deciding the end result.

As such, I would like Zwet to post an exact reason as to why that action by dejkha is scummy, and dejkha will argue to the contrary. This will help people make an educated decision. (or at least me, because quite frankly, i do not understand the prosecution's argument.)

[madeofphail]

If you say that he's wrong, you know what he is saying, can you please explain to me what zwet is arguing?

[madeofphail]

makes me nervous in the way that it implies Emp getting lynched ‘has’ to come in the future no matter what. Ignore the fuck for now, I agree (AT!), but let’s wait for more data to come in.

I do ignore him unless he asks a question that isn't stupid. Guess what?

Scum want you to ignore them and I don't care how much we do

, but it's stupid to let him live until lylo.

Forgive me if I am misconstrueing the facts, but this seems to say that you have no problem with playing right into the scum's hands.

Why say this? Wait til he responds to explain to lessen a chance of a lie. Slight, unnecessary coaching.

My post was not game related, so it has no effect as evidence. I said that because if Emp says he's 18 or something, then he would just look like an idiot 18 yr old. But if he says he's , then ok, at least it's understandable.

I don't know why we are trying to gain meta info that has no real bearing on the game. A person's age will not determine if they are scum or not. And it seems to me that you have enough of a mind to get emp lynched based on meta, regardless of his age. Why bother getting this information?

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

Giuseppe - 2 - dejkha, AndyTony

AndyTony - 1 - Empking
Empking - 1 - Giuseppe

Grimmy - 0
dejkha - 0
zwetschenwasser - 0
Pablo Molinero - 0
Zachrulez - 0
Cephrir - 0
madeofphail - 0

Not Voting: zwetschenwasser, millar13, roflcopter, Cephrir, Pablo Molinero, Grimmy, Zachrulez, madeofphail

With 10 players, it takes 6 to Lynch.

[madeofphail]

It is my belief that the mafia will do a couple of things during the day.

Their main objectives will be:
1). Stop the Town from lynching them during the day.

They can accomplish this through a couple of ways (I'm only listing a few because I do not know all of them.)
1). Bandwagoning to make a quick lynch (although with the 2 votes when it takes 7 to lynch D1 makes it kinda hard for them to quick lynch).
2). Framing someone to make a mislynch.
3). Reducing suspicion on them to the point where the town will lynch anybody except them, which will cause a mislynch.

Scum do not need to always use their votes, this is not to say that they will not use their votes as tools. Both sides bring a good argument to the table. I believe that we should think about what would be the least risky situation for the scum to do.

Millar's Lynch took over 7 pages of discussion (of questionable quality at moments, but still discussion). Now, that gives plenty of time for people to vote, and unvote, as many did. So, I think that a quicklynch may not be the method that the scum wouldve used if they were on that wagon. As for framing someone, millar seemed (at least from my point of view) to have incriminated himself, without the scum really trying to frame him. (or at least they didn't have to try very hard.) So option #2 would stick their necks out a little. I believe that the least risky action for them would have been #3: Reducing suspicion on them to the point where the town will lynch anybody except them, which will cause a mislynch.

This is not to say that everyone on the millar vote is innocent. I do not have any substantial evidence to prove anyone innocent. But it seems to me that the best action for the scum would have been to lie low, and to avoid attracting attention to themselves, they saw a lynch going through, and it did not need their prodding.

After all, emp got to L-1 at one point, and millar was hopped on pretty quickly.

If

Empking is town, then the scum would have had no reason to intervene on either mislynch proceeding.

We might be able to see if empking is scum, based on how people reacted to his lynch, versus millar. If emp is scum, people might have tried harder to avoid him getting lynched, these people might be mafia. Again this is only a theory.

[madeofphail]

Would you two please just make one post on what you think is scummier about the other one. I hate these one-line posts. I think the town will be better served if we make our arguments in larger, more substantial posts, rather than these back and forth and back and forth arguments that are hard to follow.

Furthermore, the lack of activity on the other players parts over the past couple of days is troubling me. Giuseppe, emp, and pablo are a few examples.

C:\>votecount

Running VoteCount

TM

Giuseppe - 2 - dejkha, AndyTony

AndyTony - 1 - Empking
Empking - 1 - Giuseppe

Grimmy - 0
dejkha - 0
zwetschenwasser - 0
Pablo Molinero - 0
Zachrulez - 0
Cephrir - 0
madeofphail - 0

Not Voting: zwetschenwasser, millar13, roflcopter, Cephrir, Pablo Molinero, Grimmy, Zachrulez, madeofphail

With 10 players, it takes 6 to Lynch.

[madeofphail]

Frankly, I'm more inclined to agree with Zack. It did not say "If I was scum". It said,

If Millar was my scum buddy

Furthermore, the discrepancy in behavior between reacting to dejkha's scumtell versus empking's tempts me to believe that emp and zwet are scum.

[madeofphail]

Ebwop: Hypothetical situation:
Emp is scum with zwet. Zwet sees that emp made this post. He tries to ignore it, and attacks someone else to draw attention away from his scumbuddy.
[/hypothetical]

It adds up theoretically. In that post, emp practically admitted to being scum, and trying not to draw attention to your scumbbuddy would be a likely motive for the discrepancy between accusing emp and dejkha.
The way I see it at this point. Those two are the most likely to be scum.

[madeofphail]

Dejkha said in post 434:

I'm almost afraid to lynch Emp first, because if he flips town, we may lose most of our leads, because they all involved Emp.

If he flips town, they were never leads to the mafia in the first place. If he is scum, then we killed one of two scum in two days. I personally havent seen any real scumhunting from emp, he's just been throwing around accusations without real merit. So, If we lynch him, we might just find out if the leads in question were really valid or not.

From what I have learned about emp this game. there are a few things that stand out.
1). He's hard to read.

this makes him a valuable player to the mafia. Because a). if he's town, he will mislead the town. b). If he's scum, its harder to identify him.
So, he's a tool for the scum either way, the only problem with lynching him is

if

he is the doctor. (out of twelve players, two are dead and two are scum, so one in eight chance (12.5%) if we were to make it randomized).


2). He pisses people off, and is generally a bad player.

I do not like to do personal attacks, because I do not know them in real life, so I do not believe that it is really fair to insult someone unless you really know them. There are enough angry people on the internet ready to insult people, we do not need them here.

As far as being a bad player goes, this makes him a liability for the town, as he does not help the town hunt scum.

So, because emp has yet to post anything of substance, it is hard to pin him as scum, except through association. I still believe that it would make alot of sense if zwet and him are scum buddies. But, emp himself is hard to pin.
If we had a cop, we wouldnt have this problem, but here we are with no cop, and a hard to read, and a less than helpful townie. something smells fishy about emp, and it would be greatly appreciated if he posts more.

I would like a prod from the mod to get emp to post.

[madeofphail]

I'm saying I don't want to lynch Emp and have him turn up town. It would suck after the connections that were made. That's why I'm going with Giuseppe first. If he's scum, Emp is is likely partner. If he's town, then Zwet and Emp are the next likely pair, IMO, so Emp would be the suggested following lynch.

To add to this posts that says why I made that statement, I still think Giuseppe would be the best lynch.

Giuseppes Lynch first

He's town. We go after Emp next to see if the other pairings are possible.

If Gius it town, the I think the following pairs are likely:

- Emp and Zwet
- Emp and Phail

He's scum. This makes it extremely possible that Emp is his scumbuddy and leaving Emp by himself is great. Seeing how he plays, he'd be making bad decisions. If he flips scum it also reveals some people as town (won't say who or why, until he's lynched).

Emp's Lynch first

He's town. All leads related to him are lost and we start anew

He's scum. Possible scum partners:

- Phail
- Giuseppe
- Zwet

So if Giuseppe is lynched first and he's scum, that's leaves 1 very likely scumpartner.

If Emp is lynched first and he's scum, that leaves 3 possible scumpartners.

If Giuseppe is town, We can still make likely connections to Emp.

If Emp is town, we start anew and that includes every one as possible scum and, I'm not an optimist, so between the useless people, lurkers, and the people that have been actively posting, I doubt we'll get both scum in time. We've only been taking in consideration the people that have been posting a good amount, but if Emp flips town, lurkers and useless posters are suspects also, so it's almost like starting from day one again.

But I'm almost positive scum lies in the circle of Emp, Giuseppe, Zwet and Phail. So me not wanting to lynch Emp first is also related to me thinking a win won't be likely after that.

I would very much like to know what makes you so certain that I am scum. Furthermore, what behavior makes you believe that I am linked with emp. Until you provide sufficient evidence, I will be doubtful that I am scum. If it's just a "vibe"......I'm not going to dignify that as a real accusation.


Personally, I am willing to believe that emp is town, and that was just a slip. It wouldn't be the first time I have made an error in judgement(as my username can tell you). And judging from emp's behavior, it wouldn't be his first error either. Like I said, emp is hard to pin, except through association. If we disregard this as a "slip", then I have no real reason to accuse him. All I was saying was that way back when zwet attacked dejkha for a scumtell, but not emp for the same scumtell,the descrepency in attacks could have been explained through a scum relationship. However, that no longer seems to be the case. The lack of voting after nine pages also seems to be troubling me.....

Anyways I think I shoudln't have backed down when I voted giuseppe, as he is probably the scummiest person we have at the moment, and he hasn't done anything to make us believe to the contrary. Just because my personal reasoning was faulty, doesnt mean that someone else was also wrong when I agreed with them. I believe that andytony and dejkha have provided strong points as to why giuseppe should be lynched. I am inclined to agree with them both. Also, they were right about millar, and so clearly their judgement is better than mine.

Vote: Giuseppe

[madeofphail]

Alright. So far, all the reasons we have for voting empking so far are for utility reasons, as he is a scum asset as I have already mentioned in post 435.

). He's hard to read.

this makes him a valuable player to the mafia. Because a). if he's town, he will mislead the town. b). If he's scum, its harder to identify him.
So, he's a tool for the scum either way, the only problem with lynching him is if he is the doctor. (out of twelve players, two are dead and two are scum, so one in eight chance (12.5%) if we were to make it randomized).

I believe in utility lynches, because a tool for the mafia is almost as good as another scum in my eyes. As far as the giuseppe conversation goes, I apologize for not giving proper consideration to your defense. With your defense clearly stated, My suspicions upon you have been reduced to a point where I do not see lynching you as prudent. As such:

Unvote

I agree with AndyTony to the point upon which we should give emp a fair chance. If emp can provide a well organized, and convincing argument as to why he is town, I would be more inclined to let him off of the hook.

But, If he cannot assert himself as a pro-town player who will not be used to the detriment of the town, and the benefit of the scum, I would support a utility lynch, as day 2 with this many players is still not too late.

The longer we wait, the harder it is to turn back. Many have agreed that we cannot leave the current empking alive until lylo. If we delay in lynching him, the outcome could be less than desirable. This is why emp needs to prove himself.

@dejkha: Thank you for answering my question.

[madeofphail]

I for one am going to wait to hear from the silent people flying under the radar. The people who are participating as little as possible.

It would suck if we did the scum work while they all sit back - -

let's not hurt the town because we feel obliged to cast votes and kill every day

.

On that note, we still have the option of "voting for no lynch during the day".
That being said, I do not support that action. If we take away the town's ability to kill, then we are giving the mafia a free night action. I would only reccomend this action under some special circumstances during day one, where there is very little evidence, and the most likely time to mislynch. Otherwise we should wait for info. However, there I fear for the progress of the game if we choose this action, as there are a large amount of inactive players.

[madeofphail]

No Lynch is always, always, always a horrible idea.

Scum killing in the night is innevitable - it's going to happen and we not only learn from the scum kill choice, but we eliminate suspects.

Killing a towny will only aid their body count before what will absolutely happen.

If we dont lynch, the NK will definitely be on a lurker and we will have gained nothing

. How do you not see that, accompanied with the current situation we're in with a high amount of suspects and connections? A lynch will give us more answers than no lynch ever will and its worth the trade off of having less town than a no lynch would grant us.

FoS: Andy

While I agree with the statement that,

A lynch will give us more answers than no lynch ever will and its worth the trade off of having less town than a no lynch would grant us.

I have a disargeement with stating that the NK will definately be a lurker. I do not doubt that it is a smart choice, however, the certainty is troubling. Your certainty indicates an assurance that most, if not all, of the lurkers are town. It is still possible that the lurkers are scum trying to keep their heads low.

Furthermore, if this is a the choice of the scum, It does not coincide with their previous behavior. There were still some lurkers on D1, yet the scum saw fit to kill a relatively active player, roflcopter. He also had a good gaming history behind him to boot. Why would you be so certain that the scum would change the method they use to decide who to kill? Please, explain your thoughts to me on this matter.

[madeofphail]

To adress my inactivity, it is merely my playing style. I prefer larger posts than rapid posts. It makes it easier to organize thoughts, follow the conversation, and generally reduces clutter. Furthermore, this is only my second game. I have learned to be much more patient with this game, and making frequent posts on things that seem to have little bearing seems to be a liability. A town member should not leave behind liabilities, they cause negative attention towards him/herself, and redirect the town in an incorrect direction.

As far as the no-lynching by deadline idea goes. AndyTony, I realize what you are saying, but if we look at the big picture, not lynching is giving the scum a free kill, and if the scum do the action as proposed by dejkha, there will be no leads. In other words, all we are doing is sacraficing a townie to gain more time. My problem is that I do not believe that this time will be productively spent. I do not believe that sacraficing a townie is a fair trade for time.

A lynch will bring evidence to light, and hopefully prod some lurking people out of the dark. Therefore, I can honestly say that a lynch is our best course of action, and emp is a player that comes across to me as a person who has an opinion about everything. as such, voting him will provoke a strong response, that will (with any luck) bring new evidence to light. Furthermore, if you look at post 467 I said,

I agree with AndyTony to the point upon which we should give emp a fair chance. If emp can provide a well organized, and convincing argument as to why he is town, I would be more inclined to let him off of the hook.

But, If he cannot assert himself as a pro-town player who will not be used to the detriment of the town, and the benefit of the scum, I would support a utility lynch, as day 2 with this many players is still not too late.

The longer we wait, the harder it is to turn back. Many have agreed that we cannot leave the current empking alive until lylo. If we delay in lynching him, the outcome could be less than desirable. This is why emp needs to prove himself.

So, it is my opinion that if emp doesnt prove that he isnt a liability to the town, I will support a lynch towards him. So, lets keep "poking the proverbial bear" shall we? this puts him at L-2, and with two scum, the following situation will be interesting.

Vote: Empking

[madeofphail]

EBWOP: I miscounted, I did not realize that this puts him at L-1. Please disregard the numerical error. Still, this very situation might give us a little bit of info, as many of the active players have already voted. This means that we could possibly bring the lurkers out with this action.

[madeofphail]

Vote: Empking

And so dies uselessness...

You didn't state much here. So are you saying your reason is utility? Pleas explain as soon as possible. (maybe today if the mod doesnt come back early enough to move to night).

[madeofphail]

Dejkha said in post 540:

Vote: MadeofPhail

I've got a bad feeling about him and Cephir. I've stated on multiple occasions why I find think MoP is a possibly scum and the post he made against Giuseppe regarding why he would've killed Rofl was very observant. At the time I chalked it up to good scumhunting, but now I believe Giuseppe is innocent and that

MoP was looking rather deep in that analysis. I'm pretty sure the things he mentioned for why Giuseppe would kill Rofl wouldn't have been found by anyone else, because I think they were things that could've been easy to overlook.

Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand, you think the fact that I posted what I thought was substantial evidence makes me scum? You believe that what I did was too specific for evidence? You believe that I looked too in-depth to make an argument?

If this is so, it sounds like the "too townie argument"?


Zwet said in post 543:

Pablo Molinero wrote:
Dammit! Pull this win out, town. Do it for the Pablo!

If you weren't dead, this would be a scumtell. Vote: dejkha

So, and particular reasoning for voting dejkha..or have we reverted back to the random voting stage?

[madeofphail]

[quote="dejkha

Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand, you think the fact that I posted what I thought was substantial evidence makes me scum?

You believe that what I did was too specific for evidence? You believe that I looked too in-depth to make an argument?

If this is so, it sounds like the "too townie argument"?

Yeah, pretty much

.It seems so deep that no one else would've noticed it, IMO. I just looked back at it and realized that I don't think most of it was about Giuseppe either. It pretty much concentrated on Rofl and Emp and

some

Giuseppe at the end. Or at least, thats what I think, because for some reason you didn't label who you're quoting. So at this point it's also hard to see why that seemed like a lot of evidence. One things I'm almost positive about is if you or Giuseppe is scum, the other isn't. You pushed hard on him, so I'd excluded you both as scumbuddies.

Due to the specificness of that post, I think Grimmy's statement about it is true in that you would try to frame him like that. Which may explain why you were on and off with you vote on Giuseppe. If he flipped town, you didn't want to be on the wagon for that reason.
[/quote]
The Rofl post's quotes has nothing but rofl's quotes.

In case you do not remember, I stand by my statement in post 347:

I put a vote on Giuseppe because Rofl was killed, and the people he was gunning for were emp, and giuseppe. Therefore, I believe that the mafia killed him to eliminate accusations against them. I now realize that what I am implying is that the mafia are stupid, and if they were giuseppe and/or empking, they would only be putting more suspicion on themselves, and this is not what they would do. Therefore, my post which "justified" voting for giuseppe is invalid proof. I did not think that far through. My error in judgement is directing negative attention to me.

If I understand correctly. you believe that I am scum trying to misdirect the town into voting giuseppe because If I was scum, I killed rofl and am currently trying to frame giuseppe. I made an error in judgement, which is my no means excusable. My first error in judgement contributed to a mislynch, and I now fear that my judgement in this day may cause yet another mislynch. I do not want a mislynch, and since my reasoning was insufficient there is no reason for me to persist my vote.

Unvote

[hypothetical] I am scum. I am trying to frame giuseppe, but not be on the wagon.[/hypothetical]

Now tell me, Why would I be on or off? If I didnt want to be on the wagon, why get on it at any time if I was sure a wagon was going to form? I made my votes based on times when his guilt seemed to wax or wane. Why would a townie not follow this action? If a person is pretty much clear of suspicion, why want them dead? If a person is scummy, we want them dead.

Furthermore, please forgive me for showing emotion here:
I should slap you upside the head for using the "too townie" argument to find scum. That claim suggests that by being helpful, and trying to scumhunt, that person is scum. Now, tell me which part of that argument makes sense. If I was trying to lead the town, that would be somehting completely different

[madeofphail]

Obviously if you're gonna try and frame him, you'll get on his wagon.

You don't bring up a case that can appear to be a big one and then not ever vote.

That alone makes you look bad. That's why I think it looked weird that you were on and off his wagon. You voted him, unvoted, voted him again and unvoted. Not everything is as simple as "who's scumhunting and who's not". I'm taking the liberty of looking deeper than that.

If you look at the post in question (post 277) I said in my last paragraph:

Rofl was on to something, I believe that this was the reason that the scum killed him. This, along with Dejkha's massive post, seems like a good enough reason to think that giuseppe is scum.

Vote: Giuseppe

I did vote when I brought up the case, please do not try to bring false evidence to light against me. That accusation that I brought up a case and then did not vote has no base in reality.

I voted as I deemed necessary, and if you have an objection to that I believe that I answered that already. I posted:

I put a vote on Giuseppe because Rofl was killed, and the people he was gunning for were emp, and giuseppe. Therefore, I believe that the mafia killed him to eliminate accusations against them. I now realize that what I am implying is that the mafia are stupid, and if they were giuseppe and/or empking, they would only be putting more suspicion on themselves, and this is not what they would do. Therefore, my post which "justified" voting for giuseppe is invalid proof. I did not think that far through. My error in judgement is directing negative attention to me.

If I understand correctly. you believe that I am scum trying to misdirect the town into voting giuseppe because If I was scum, I killed rofl and am currently trying to frame giuseppe. I made an error in judgement, which is my no means excusable. My first error in judgement contributed to a mislynch, and I now fear that my judgement in this day may cause yet another mislynch. I do not want a mislynch, and since my reasoning was insufficient there is no reason for me to persist my vote.

Unvote

Allow me to elaborate if you do not understand,as It appears that my language is too murky:

My original proof was that he was seemingly the name that the victim wrote in blood, and that was deemed illogical. With my basis for accusation gone, I saw it no longer fit to vote someone who was significantly closer to innocence in my eyes. Why would anyone vote for someone that they had little reason to accuse?

Moving on, as the posting proceeded, evidence seemed to pile upon giuseppe. Restating evidence already posted against someone is redundant, which was one of the things that provoked hostility towards giuseppe. I did not see fit to restate evidence that I agreed with.

The final unvote on giuseppe was proceeded by this sentence:

As far as the giuseppe conversation goes, I apologize for not giving proper consideration to your defense. With your defense clearly stated, My suspicions upon you have been reduced to a point where I do not see lynching you as prudent. As such:

Unvote

again, why vote someone who has accurately defended themselves and cleared them of suspicion for the most part? If I am not mistaken you also unvoted him when he finally made his big defense post. Upon recollection, the only two people voting him besides me where dejkha and AndyTony. Dejkha and AndyTony

BOTH

rescinded their vote on giuseppe after his defense post.

In short

, the first vote was through my own reasoning, my first unvote was when my reasoning was disproved. My second vote was because evidence was piling up, and the accused was not performing a strong defense. I saw him as scummy, and to restate points that were already stated that I believed in was redundant, so I voted. After the accused accurately defended himself, I saw fit to remove my vote.

Any questions? Any further accusations? If so, I would be delighted to answer your questions and help the town make an accurate discision.

[madeofphail]

Why is dejkha still alive? He tried to appease me by ^this^

. This post, to me says that zwet wants to start a dejkha wagon. The only reasons I can think for doing this is for scum to get a quick lynch, or he has good, strong evidence that says dejkha is scum. Given zwet's play history in this game, I very much doubt the latter option. However, If zwet can provide a solid explination with solid proof and a decent case, we may have a real lead.which we desperately need at this point.

[madeofphail]

just putting something out there: Wasn't zwet accused by both rofl and dejkha of being scum much earlier in the game? the theoretical Scum pairs were with giuseppe or emp. Emp is dead and turned up town.

I'm not sure on whether to agree with the theories previously presented, but if we do end up lynching zwet, and he does turn up scum, then maybe we should give giuseppe a second, closer look.

On the note of roflcopter's theory, I am not trying to frame giuseppe with the whole "writing the killers name in blood theory", what I'm saying is that more than one person reached the same conclusion. One of which is

confirmed dead

townie

.

[madeofphail]

I understand your case, but the most I'll give him is an FoS for now.

Here's some more blatant dej scumminess.

(sorry this post was made while I was posting)
From what I understand, not jumping to agree with someone immediately is not a scumtell. But from what you seem to be suggesting this should've happened:

[hypothetical chain of events]: AndyTony posts the proof,
Dejkha goes, "Wow, Ok, I agree! Vote for zwet!"[/hypothetical]
To me, what you are implying is that he would have to piggyback to prove that he is town in your eyes!

Considering the two mislynches, it is probably prudent to consider things before voting. This fact is currently the reason that I am not voting you yet, you have

a

scumtell, but we've had two bad players post things that seemed like scumtells, lynched them, and had them turn out town.

[madeofphail]

Grow the **** up junior.

Grimmy
now has two goals in this game..
Win with the town.

Piss of Dej as much as Grimmily possible

.

Its against my policy to do personal attacks, but the hypocracy is sickening for both you and zwet. If you people cannot act with a modicum of civility then you are of no use here. I do not believe that you people have the maturity of a three-year old,so please do not prove me wrong.
------------------------------------------
Now then, back to business:

Zach seems to be flying onto the wagons of people he would know are townie, and so did phial. (see my above arguement about Dej, because this applies to them as well)

Dej, while nasty and offensive, seems to be agressivley town to me. (dammit) So I will have to look into my three stooges of suspicion stated above for now.

As far as the flying on wagons vote goes, I already posted some time back that I voted for millar with my first post, along with what I thought at the time to be substantial evidence. When he further incriminated himself, I saw no reason to remove my vote or suspicion.

On the matter of empking, I made a post describing why he is a liability to our cause as townspeople. So yes, that was a utility lynch. Also, thanks to the lurkers(among other things), we had very little substantial posts, and we were approaching our deadline. We decided that a lynch was better than no lynch, and a utility lynch was the best that we could come up with. Furthermore, I was also trying to provoke him into making a good sized-response about his L-1 status. He did not prove himself valuable to the town. I promised earlier that day that if emp could prove that he was not a tool for the scum, and pro-town, that I would lynch him.
I stood by my statement.

As far as the stooge statement goes, please do not classify the accused as such. Personal attacks are not needed here.

[madeofphail]

EBWOP: If he proved himself not a tool for the scum that I would not lynch him, If he did not, that I would lynch him.

I am also sorry that my temper waved about the hypocracy.

[madeofphail]

I have read both of the meta, and all I seem to be able to find is that he is more emotional when he is town than when he is scum. While these games are still evidence, I would hate to lynch on meta again. (I did it once and look where it got us, nice going me.)
That being said, I would still feel bad about no lynching scum just because their reputation makes them immune. I honestly am at a loss as what to do with the situation.

The only thing I can hope for is that people start to post more. We are not making any progress, except for the fact that someone is at L-2. I do not think that he will post a strong response to this situation. I would put him at L-1 to apply more pressure, but I'm afraid something like this will happen again

Vote: Empking

And so dies uselessness...

Granted, I do not think that Zwet will not vote himself, but he is not the one I am worried about.

Zwet still needs to die and should stop refusing to help himself.

I am worried that cephrir, who we have no strong evidence against, will hammer him and leave us at Lylo. Cephrir seems to be not really posting much, or at least not frequently. Besides the AndyTony analysis, he just kinda posts things like "Emp needs to die", "Zwet needs to die", ect.(this is much paraphrased.

The other possiblity is that grimmy votes him, and lynches him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now that I think of it, putting Zwet at L-1 will give us evidence (as long as zwet doesn't lynch himself). Dont do this zwet, this wil give us a clue if we get you lynched. On the other hand, if people listen to me, then they will be afraid to drop the hammer and bada bing, I've just given zwet immunity, which will be very bad if he is scum.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, with that In mind, I think that it will be incredibly hard to lynch zwet unless he does something really scummy. but the meta could still grant him immunity. I see a hopeless situation if zwet is scum. If zwet is scum, he's already won in my opinion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only way to break zwets immunity is to lynch him without regret, but that will look scummy unless he turns up scum.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really do not know what to make of the situation, so I'm just gunna take a leap of faith here and hope that it works out for the better. hopefully this will yield answers rather than a quick lynch.

Vote: Zwet

[madeofphail]

Mod and everyone

:just so everyone knows, starting this thursday: for about a week and a half i will be posting slim to none (depending on computer acess). Given the amount of players, and the inactivity, I am not really worried about alot going on while I am away from home.

Although, if this is too long for people, then please replace me. I will try to post when i can, but i am still not sure if where I am going will have a computer that I can acess.

[madeofphail]

I'm back from ghana everybody. Now then on to buisiness.

1). On the matter of cephrir's wish for a reference. This is my second mafia game, and here is my first: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... hlight=752

I was lynched day one as a vanilla townie. Shortly after I joined this one.

I made a horribly stupid mistake, and I have no intention of doing so again. I would like to think that my play style reflects this point. However, I am still not being as much of an asset to the town as I should be. I am not a smart person. I merely proofread. I do not want to be mistaken as scum, because I am not scum.

It is my belief that townies have a few duties. (in no particular order, as many people have their own opinions on this, and human minds are quite subject to fluctuation.)
1).Find scum and lynch them.
2). To not mislead the town.
this brings us to point a). do not provide false leads to you, if you are town, do not give the town any reason to believe otherwise. any time that you leave a false trail, you are spelling your own doom, as well as pushing the town in a n egative direction.

Now then, I have posts to catch up on, and I will respond t them as i can. I thank you all for your extrordinary patience.

[madeofphail]

Wow, that's a giant load. I'd be voting you right now if it weren't for Phail not being here.

In fact, seeing how scum could've quicklynched Phail when me and Andy were voting for him, I think the best bet is that Phail, Me, or Andy is scum

. And since I have a good feeling about Andy, I think Phail's almost certainly scum.


Good god, I feel almost positive that Zach is scum, but the probabilty of Phail being scum is higher.

goody goody goody, people are starting to vote me.

Now,I'm not quite done catching up, but something came up that seemed of significant interest.....Zach thought that dej and any were scum. however, this idea seems to have been disregarded due to lack of evidence. But, if we look back, do we see buddying betwixt these two?
I still have to catch up, so that matter will have to wait as far as quotes and the like go but for now it is food for thought.

Now, as far as what dej said about the scum being him or andy, I couldn't agree more. While dej has been quite beneficial, this does not prove him entirely innocent. This is not the too-townie argument mind you, this is the cynical paranoid person logic which states that no one is innocent.
To quote a famous inquisitor, "there is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court, an innocent man is guilty of wasting my time, take him away".

Summary

:the way i see it, at L-2, the scum wouldve hammered. and with it being lylo, that would've been victory! so....either between the voting and unvoting time, the scum weren't playing.....or......at least one of the people voting me was scum...........
this point hjas already been stated by dejkha, but it is significant enough to be stated again.

We can still do this guys. I have faith in you. although, i was hoping to be mislynched at one point, b/c i have a really good bah post that i want to use........oh wells, ill save it for if we win. or if i get mislynched.

[madeofphail]

Phail, I've stated plainly that I think Dej is town - - and although you're quick to say you're not pleading the "too towny" argument - your rewording of it is inescapably such.

Saying you want to be mislynched is as good as a town claim - should we accept it as such?
And Grimmy and Ceph have been ignored completely, which I don't find to be like you at all, Phail - -

You've planned your death (itching to "bah" post in an attempt to claim you are town) and you've suggested I'm buddying with Dej whom I've treated just the same as you to him.

We have a solid case on Guiseppe, suspicions on you, two lurkers, Dej (who like comes across as the more town player which is undeniably found in almost ALL mafia games - - let's be fair) and myself.

You've always attempted to be concise and thorough in your investigations yet you chose to take this time as a role claiming epitath? Why?

on the matter of the first bolded point: Trust no one would have been a better way of stating my argument. I apologize for coming across as the abhorred too-townie argument. And why would I have any reason to claim any other role except town? a claim as town is a nultell pretty much. at least in this sort of situation.

As far as the grimmy and cephrir point goes. they don't post enough. I dont have much dirt on them to make a case, so why point accusations with no basis, its confusing, causes clutter, and I'm not a fan of either. If you can find substantial evidence against them by all means, go ahead.

Summary:

My current state is one of confusion. I will need to dig around for awhile before I can resume my normally conposed state. You people prodded me to post, so I did in my less-than optimal condition. the result is what you are commenting on.

[madeofphail]

I have an idea that might help us, and would not have a terrible consequence on the part of the town. There are 6 players with 4 to lynch.
if only one person dies, then its 5 with three to lynch right? in both cases with two scum, its lylo.


So, I propose that this sort of situation merits a no-lynch unless we can get definitive proof.A night kill will give us much better chances, as it confirms one townie, as well as gives us some evidence.
as such:

Vote: No Lynch

------------------------------------------------
For those who may object to this stating that I was against no-lynching. I would like yo remind you that I did not say to never do this action ever. I said

I would only reccomend this action under some special circumstances

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are not changing our circumstance, all we are doing is improving our chances, and depending on who the scum kill, culling the herd. That being said,

I think I have an idea of who the scum is. I believe that the scum are dejkha and Cephrir

. I do not have a very solid case against them, but hopefully the action I have proposed will confirm my belief.

My assumption is based on a few things:

1). I trust no-one. Just because you are agressively pro-town does not mean that you are positively town. granted, it makes you less suspicious, but I am paranoid in real life, and I see no reason to change my mannerisms. (No one has captured me yet).

Furthermore, Check the post-game discussion in this game if you seek further proof on why I can still doubt dejkha's towniness.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9219
In the above game, the scum won, and the post game discussion said that none of the townies ever suspected them just because of their agressive pro-town nature. I will repeat, I am not saying agressive townies are always scum, I am saying that they are not always town.

2). in order to make the town devoid of nightkill evidence, the scum have been targeting lurkers. the only major lurker I see left is cephrir, and he has a good meta record as a good player. Why wouldn't he be a target much earlier in the game? If he was scum, his existance up to this point would make alot of sense.

3). In light of points two and three, dejkha and cephrir are pretty much the perfect scumpair. Dejkha is so agressively pro-town, that no one would suspect him, and cephrir is never suspected because he lurks.

4). As dejkha so kindly pointed out, given this days voting patterns, the scum most likely voted me already, otherwise they would have hammered for win.

5). Even though the scum have been going for lurkers, I have already stated that the scum also go for people that cannot be easily mislynched.
People such as dejkha, who seems to have gotten off free of suspicion.
Rofl likewise didn't have much suspicion, and he was not really lurking, but the mafia killed him. Rofl has a good game record as a good player, and wasn't too bad in this game either. So why havent the mafia killed dejkha? My theory is because dejkha is part of the mafia.
--------------------------------------

Now for how it all ties toghether: Yes, I am suspicious of these two, but I'm not quite confidant enough yet. A few things could happen if we do my proposed action:

1). Cephrir is nightkilled because the scum seem to systematically kill lurkers.
Result: Well, one less lurker to worry about, one more townie confirmed, maybe slight evidence, and our situation hasn't changed...big whoop.

2). Someone else is nightkilled (besides cephrir or dejkha)
Result: That pretty much confirms my theory then. It also doesnt change our lylo situation, but it did just give us the scum.

3). Dejkha is nightkilled, and turns up town. This kind of screws my theory up the rump, but as I stated already, it gives us one comfirmed townie (which decreases chance of mislynch), and it doesnt threaten our situation (as it doesnt really get any worse than lylo).
-------------------------------
I've given it some thought and I think we'll find out if I was right, whether the town win or not.

There is no real detriment to my action, consider it for yourselves.
-------------------------------------
mod: thank you for making this possible by having an even amount of players.

[madeofphail]

EBWOP: Grimmy also hasnt been posting much, so I also accuse him as being dejkhas partner, as he lurks just as much as cephrir. so my acusations currently stand as:

Dejkha is scum paired with the lurkers grimmy or cephrir.

so in my post before this one the result of cephir's nightkill also is the same result of grimmy as a nighkill.

[madeofphail]

true - but if they're town, they're helping us by keeping the ratio against scum.

I disagree. The lurkers do not help us confirm townspeople, and so if we were to vote, they are likely candidates for a mislynch. Furthermore, as far as contributing the voting ratio, if they are town, they impede voting because they are not active enough to vote to kill scum, and if they are scum, the current situation means that it has to be unanimous for the townspeople to vote a scum correctly. I don't really see that happening.
----------------
Now I realize that my accusation of dejkha and Cephrir was misinterpreted, which was my fault due to poor wording on my part. upon revision, I realize that I look like a gibbering idiot, which I am, but thats not the point.

More accurately stated, my accusation lies on a few points:

1). The scum will kill based on what would be to their best benefit. So far it has been lurkers, because

someone

gave them the idea to do that. Looking back on it, I see it as messaging the scum, as they have been following that creed ever since it was proposed.

2). Dejkha is pretty much agreed to be one of the most pro-town players we have so far. no one really has a beef with him, so he would be damn hard to accomplish as a mislynch. The scum should get rid of him a.s.a.p, otherwise his play would root them out. As he has survived to lylo, this makes me suspicious.

3). As I have stated a multitude of times, I was put at L-2 for a good amount of time, this was due to voting by AndyTony and dejkha. There were two scum, and it was lylo. they could have hammered for win. So the situation could have been read a couple of ways.
A). I am scum, and so the mafia would have no reason to hammer me. The problem with this is that I am not scum. I know I am not, and whether you choose to believe me or not has no bearing on my accusation, as I do not need to convince myself that I am of town faction.
B). both of the people voting me were already scum, and so it was impossible for the scum to get the quick end-game hammer.
C). One of the people voting me is scum, and the scumbuddy didn't want to hop on the wagon because it wouldn't get me dead (that very instant), and it would basically just out themself.

Yes, I know this also makes me accuse AndyTony, but I did not think that far through with my original accusation, as my composure was less than 100%, and this post is merely reiterating that haphazard post of mine.

4). Cephrir lies as an accused because he has a good meta record as a good player. This game he has not been doing much, and has been lurking. The scum continue to kill lurkers, and yet a lurker with great potential as a town-asset is left untouched. This is why I chose him over the lurking grimmy. Not to say that grimmy is a horrible player, but what little he posted was somewhat into the random pile.
Furthermore, grimmy has a real life situation that limits his posting, explaining his lurking if it is to be believed.

To correct the misconception, it is not because these two have not been accused that I am accusing them, but the fact that they are going to be hard to lynch, and are good for the town, therefore a threat to the scum, and are still alive.
------------------------

Now for the revisions which I should have thought about before posting the haphazard, and horrible piece of steaming crap that I dared to call a thought process.

There is a hole in my theory.
1). The scum could have left these people alive for just this reason, knowing that someone would pick up on this, the scum could easily frame someone this way.

but, this contradicts what I just said. My original reason was that dejkha is hard to lynch, and he is. The scum have had plenty of days, and no one has dared poiint a finger in his direction until now, if the scum were doing my proposed "hole" theory, then it wasnt working, and they should have offed him when they had the chance, furthermore if they got rid of dejkha or andytony, conversation rate would significantly decrease, dramatically impeding scumhunting. Therefore, I stand by my accusation of dejkha on the grounds that this piece of evidence seems pretty solid.

2). But they could have followed what he said to make him loook like he was scum communicating, and frame him.
But yet again I say that framing was not going to really work.

This is my case against those two. Like I said, I am also paranoid, so I dont trust any of you, no matter how nice you are, or how pro-town you are. This is not no say I will persue less scummy people than very scummy people, it is to say that no one is completely clear in my book. It is my hope that this post has cleared up this matter.
----------------

That being said, although I accuse these two, my reasoning is still not backed by enough evidence to kill these people, at least not yet, so it is my hope that by having a no-lynch, I will be able to gather some data that will either confirm my theory, or prove me wrong, and steer us in the right direction.

[madeofphail]

Vote: Dejkha

We lose a townie with a nk, regardless of a lynch or no lynch.

1/3 is better than 0/3 any day.

No lynch CANNOT help us at this point

. All we have to go on is our votes to eliminate scum, and by not using it, we are letting the scum win.
You are also basing part of this on the idea that the scum would target a lurking player over an active one. This is incorrect. Scum would have more to gain from the more active players who are scum hunting rather than the lurking players who do not contribute in comparison.

I am voting Dej over Phail on this one because Dej is more experiences and should know better than phail would. I also have major suspicions of Phail as well, and this could be a plan devised by them to have the newer person suggest a no lynch so

he could fall back on the shine of his newbieness.

I think the scum are dej and phail, so I will go for the leader of the two (more experienced)

Major FOS: Made of Phail

I fully expect and welome the arguements that my not being around somehow disqualifies what I am saying. I am declaring now that this would be a distractionary tactic by the two mentioned above in order to detract from my arguement.

Grimmy

Well, as I already stated, even if we let one townie die tonight, we are still in Lylo tommorrow, this just gets us one confirmed townie, and one less suspect. You are acting

very very

jumpy for a townie...............
Furthermore, we are already at lylo, if we lynch with 5ppl to choose from, its harder than 4.

We are already at lylo, no lynching would improve our chances.

Fos: Grimmy

Reason: ovverreacting to a pro-town idea, as well as promoting the idea that we still have a day after lylo. In case you don't remember: A majority is required to lynch. We have 6, if we mislynch and then a nk, there is 4 with two mafia, town cannot win at that point and mafia win. WE ARE IN LYLO, lets get the chances as good as we can. If we only have 1 Nk, and no lynch there is 5 with 3 required to lych, and only two mafia. So the situation doesnt change all that much. WE just have to be very careful about how we vote.

Furthermore, What would make you so sure that they would change their tactics so dramatically this late in the game? I do not think that the mafia have been blind to the pro-town actions of dejkha and others. Furthermore, If they do eliminate one of the more active players, such as dejkha, and he flips town, that would steer me in the right direction, and if certain people are still alive, that puts suspicion on them.

If you were scum, I could easily see how this action would make you very jumpy, and how you would try to avoid this action at all costs, which also directs my gaze at zach, but you seem to be far more flambouyant.
----------------------
On the topic of the second bolded point: You have touched upon a subject which tends to make me very angry, but I am going to state it as civily as I can:

I despise people with great intensity that hide behind "the newb claim". It is my personal opinion that claiming newb is never an excuse, and I have never ever claimed newb in any of my games up to this point. There are only stupid people and smart people. I am stupid, being a newb has nothing to do with it. As such, I am fully accountable for my actions, and while I offer explinations, being a newb is invalid.

To provide my mentailty I will provide an example with an army officer:
If inexperience causes an error under the direct command of an officer, it should not be written off due to inexperience. The officer has proven themselves unfit for the position, and should be disciplined as such. No mercy, because the world eats alive people that trust and show mercy. Some call it paranoia, I call it waking up from the delusions of our childhood.

If I were to claim newb, I am saying that I am unfit to play mafia in my eyes.If I was not fit to play, I would not have joined this game.

[madeofphail]

you say yo udon't care when we do it, yet you and phail are advocating it pretty strongly and it suggests that you don't have any intentions to continue scumhunting - - only waiting to no lynch.

If we believe something is right, we defend it. That shows conviction. I for one, do not like to be flip-floppy on issues.

As for the scumhunting, I have with some degree caught up with the days that I missed. All I am seeing is old evidence, and nothing really is being drawn from today. I see Zach using old evidence to press for the AndyTony lynch. I don't see much new evidence today, and I for one, would like one less suspect.The No-Lynch which I proposed increases our chances significantly.

The only real news I've seen is the thoughts that point that 3/6 players are anti-no lynch, and that my accusation is being argued as severely flawed.

On the topic of Grimmy's reaction: I do not know each of your personal beliefs, but I see mafia as a psychological game. It can be compared to the well-known card game of poker. We all hold cards which no one else sees, we look for tells, and if someone's facial expression changes or they show emotion, thats a tell.

I see grimmy's recent posts as panic. To me, thats not a good poker face, so either someone doesn't have a good hand, or they believe I have a better one.

To explain the analogies:
1). He doesn't have a good hand: By this I mean that he possibly is scum, and he doesnt want to do this action, or bet. (although I believe the stakes of this bet are low, with much more to win than lose.) This is why I fose'd him. I'm not quite sure If He is scum, because I don't have much dirt on him.

2). They believe I have a better one: I know I'm town, and all the scum know that. They see that If I take this bet, it gives them a kill, but it pretty much forces them to take an action, and this give us a little more information. This action is scumhunting. I'm not saying that we can't do a little before a no-lynch goes through.

The other possibility is that grimmy is town and thinks I am scum, and so sees this action as a scum ploy. But I am not scum, and while I cannot force you to believe me, I promise you that I am not scum.

I do not go back when I promise, and If you doubt me still, you will see what I am talking about in the postgame conversation, whether we win or lose.
----------------
Furthermore, something that I neglected to do while analyzing grimmy:

I fully expect and welome the arguements that my not being around somehow disqualifies what I am saying. I am declaring now that this would be a distractionary tactic by the two mentioned above in order to detract from my arguement.

I disgree with you. Please lend me your ear for a moment, because this is what's happening:
I propose an action, and someone agrees with me. You do not like this action, and proceed to call us scum. Furthermore, you say that any time to take to defend our action, confirms us as scum.

You are stating that we are scum, with no margin for any other possibility, like how about townies actually reccomending a good action. You are as good as random voting because you have little evidence to go by.

In case you refuse to listen I'm going to state it again: We are in Lylo. This means:

We either lynch scum today, or LOSE. If we have only one less townie tommorrow, our situation does not change from lylo. You say that we are scum whittling down. You are wrong (at least about me, because I have my own suspicions about dejkha independant of agreeing with me about a pro-town action).

You are mathematically incorrect, you say that our chances of lynching scum are better with 6 people alive than 5. 2/5 is better than 2/6.

Furthermore I have a beef with you about this:

hammer time amigos

Vote: Zwet

and the game moves on

Grimmy

Hypocritical much? You voted without stating ANY proof. If nothing else, YOU were whittling down.

[madeofphail]

THis is an abbreviated form of my accusation, as a reference to bring people up to speed if they do not bother with reading my unsightly long posts.

That being said, although I accuse these two, my reasoning is still not backed by enough evidence to kill these people, at least not yet, so it is my hope that by having a no-lynch, I will be able to gather some data that will either confirm my theory, or prove me wrong, and steer us in the right direction.

Cephrir: I'm accusing, and you are free to call it "silly", but I'm not quite sure of it myself, its more of a gut feeling based on reasoning rather than conclusive, irrefutable evidence. I am just putting my theory out there.

As my vote currently suggests, I am not quite encouraging voting my suspects right now. I have been wrong before, and I have no intention of making such a mistake again.
-------------------------------------
And to make it a little easier on the eyes, I am going to try a new way of organizing my hypotheticals, accusations, and the like.(please give feedback at any time, negative or positive is welcome).

Facts:

-Scum nightkills are as follows:
N1:Roflcopter (vanilla)
N2: Pablo Molinero (vanilla)
N3: Giuseppe (vanilla)
It is D4, so they have gotten a kill every single night and no successful Doc protects, and the Doc is still alive.

-Roflcopter states this is his second post:

you are wrong. and in this setup, its especially a good idea to say who you think is pro town.

if enough townspeople agree on the same person being town, it almost forces the mafia's nightkill, because there is zero chance of that person being mislynched.

and hey, look what the only power role we have is?

-The current people "lurking" (because in light of the current explanations it is not so much lurking as unavailable.) have provided the following explanations:
Grimmy: Work related
MadeofPhail: The long stretch was when I was on a different continent, and I have no laptop. The other times is because I have stated that it is my playstyle.

Theory:

-The bulk of my wariness about dejkha is best embodied by the bolded roflcopter quote. Dejkha is widely accepted as town, yet is not dead. With the evidence of the nightkills, it is shown that he is not still alive due to a doc protect, but that he has not been targeted. A scum would not target another scum, so if dejkha is scum, this would explain his survival. If you seek elaboration of my theory, please read my post on page 32 (post 788).

-My reason for believing that a lurker may be his partner is pretty much just that, theory. Lurkers have been being nightkilled for the entire game so far. It has been speculated that it is because a dead lurker does not really leave a trail. I suspected you, cephrir, in particular because given your game history, you have the potential to be a great town-asset in this game. Although, you have not been posting very frequently. This makes you a target to the scum, and your potential makes you a prime target among prime targets, yet you are still alive. Again, scum do not target scum, so If you were scum, it would explain why you have not been targeted. This is my rationale in a nutshell.

-A lurkers and/or agreed (but still speculated) townies are very potent scum pairs in my opinion. One just has to look good, and the other can sit back and avoid attention. This makes me wary about such players.
--------------------------------------------------------------
While it may be silly to you, it does still have a small degree of logic behind it.

Thus, my accusation does have a rather flimsy basis to it. That is why I am not committing a vote to it. I think the town will be better served If We try to scumhunt, rather that capriciously vote on flimsy evidence. I proposed a no-lynch scumhunting plan. This action I believe will help us. Especially if there is a successful doc protect.
--------------------------------------

[madeofphail]

You also stated to Grimmy, something to the effect of "Grimmy, you shouldn't CALL us scum if you can't CONFIRM it" - - - and then you call him a hypocrite.

Is it not fair to say you yourself are being unfair and hypocritical by telling him he can't believe you're scum without confirmation while you're TELLING us you're town without confirming it? It seems a bit one sided.

He is not just accusing, people can say what they want. They may be wrong, but they are free to say it. What they

do

is an entirely different matter. He is

Voting

someone without what seems to me as concrete evidence. After all, he's made it abundantly clear that he wants a dej lynch.

I am theorizing that dej is scum, not going for his throat. I have stated my beliefs, and as I am not psychic, I may very well be wrong.

On the matter of claiming town: I realize that it is completely wrong of me to assume that I can be believed without sufficient evidence.

As such, feel free to dismiss my claim

, as the only evidence I have to offer is that of my promise. Again: I promise that I am not scum in this mafia game.

To grimmy: I apologize for calling you hypocritical, as I myself was a hypocrite. I do not expect forgiveness, and feel free to tear me a new one and the suchlike. However, I am slightly suspiscious of you for acting in a way that seems rash and panic-like to me.

[madeofphail]

To Dejkha: Yes, I apologize.
------------------------

Dejkha is widely accepted as town, yet is not dead. With the evidence of the nightkills, it is shown that

he is not still alive due to a doc protect, but that he has not been targeted.

A scum would not target another scum, so if dejkha is scum, this would explain his survival

The bold - - Can you explain your knowledge here? Other people dying in the night mean that they were targetted, and FOUR people were NOT targetted - -

How would you know if he was protected or not? The knowledge you're slipping here suggests a nature of scum, or you trying to make us think you're the doctor without having the responsibility/heat for claiming it (also scummy)

Everyone living right now hasn't been targetted - your logic doesn't fit with thinking he's the only one that can be scum because they don't NK their own.

You pushed it with the Doc protect comment - - Doc could have protected ANY of us on ANY of those nights - - how would you know if he was or was not? (that's where I think the intentional slip is put it to claim without saying it)

....thoughts?

--------------------
And Ceph - - it's getting annoying when you are all for an idea on what to vote and don't actually do it. VERY - FRIGGIN - SCUMMY

To explain the bolded point, I didn't say that he was targeted by the doc for protection. What I stated (and due to the misunderstanding I guess I worded it poorly) was that he has not been targeted by scum and saved by the doctor. The point I was trying to make is that he is still alive, and because there has been a Nk every night with no doc protects, there is no possibility of him having been targeted as a nk, and then just saved as a doctor. So that means he has never been targeted. But to clear up the misunderstanding.

I'll try to abbreviate it more: My suspiscions are on cephrir and dejkha are mainly because they are prime targets that haven't been killed by the scum yet.
-------------------------
As far as your belief on subtly claiming doctor: Why would I do that?That would seem like outing the doc. And if the action that I would like to happen (the no-lynch) goes through, we'll be losing the doc. Although in hind sight losing the doctor the night you go into lylo doesn't really matter.

Another thing is that I never said he is the Only one who could be scum because he hasn't been targeted. I am saying that he is more likely to be scum in my eyes. If I was so sure, why bother sacraficing the townie? and vote him along with grimmy. I know I could be wrong (it would be far from the first time).
-----------------------------------------
That being said: I officially claim doctor. My protects so far have been (in day order): cephrir, dejkha, cephrir.
And I have a little bit of evidence:
1).

@Giuseppe: I was just making a side comment, I realise that a slight numerical error in this case does not make one scum.

@Zachrules: I am confused as to how self voting will help in hunting the doc.

Side note: Doc should never out himself in this game. He/she is the only pro-town power role in this game (or power role at all for that matter). If he/she reveals himself/herself that practically assures that person to be nightkilled.
We do not want the doctor to die. The doctor helps us. The scum want to kill the doctor. Thus, it could be said that attempts to root out the doctor are anti-town.

This was me protecting my ass D1. A vanilla townie stating this would be redundant.

Granted, even if my no-lynch goes through,and the scum believe me, me getting nk'd wont matter in the slightest, but it will clear you guys of one suspect, so I have no regrets about this.
Furthermore, Even If for once I was smart and protected correctly, we'd be in the same situation today, so it wouldn't really help.

So as far as I'm concerned, being a doctor at this point doesnt mean diddly squat, other than innocence, and a very poor job of protecting.
---------------------------------
Bring on the heat. After all, It may just root out the scum.

[madeofphail]

Go on and rip on me, but here is my logic:

1). The no lynch is not going to go through.
We have 6, with 4 needed to lynch. That being said we have zach and grimmy which oppose the idea wholeheartedly.so we still have the needed four. Wrong. We have cephrir, who will be away for a really long time, and probably not vote, and then we have dejkha, who even though he agrees with it, is not willing to cast his vote.

2).I'm abandoning hope, and making the best of our situation, because it isn't going to get much better than this.

The game is already in the toilet, and I'm not really able to help because I am fresh out of ideas. Stirring up the game like this though makes it quite interesting, because if someone counterclaims, I have a new prime suspect. This will help me scumhunt, although it may not help everyone else as much unless I can build a solid case against that person because they will either not know who to believe, or believe anyone else besides me that claims. (which is understandable, after all I'm not very believeable or convincing, or logical, or smart for that matter.)

So, I too, invite a counterclaim.
------------------
Come on out scum, and join the party!

[madeofphail]

hope of no lynch rather than all hope

[madeofphail]

I´m the doctor, and I have just witnessed a rather bad fakeclaim.

I´ve saved dejkha every night.

On the first night I managed to WIFOM myself out of protecting roflcopter, I knew he´s a pretty good player but I thought he looked bad enough after the millar lynch that I didn´t have to protect him yet. Dej´s opposition to lynching millar sounded genuine and I figured someone off the wagon would probably be the target. Nights 2 and 3 I just figured he´s been obvtown, I´ve been frustrated that the scum apparently don´t agree but after N1 I´ve been afraid of WIFOMing myself out of the correct save again.

I find phail´s attack on dej even more hilarious now, maybe he thinks that everyone else will decide to believe him because scum wouldn´t do something that stupid.

Side note: Doc should never out himself in this game. He/she is the only pro-town power role in this game (or power role at all for that matter). If he/she reveals himself/herself that practically assures that person to be nightkilled.
We do not want the doctor to die. The doctor helps us. The scum want to kill the doctor. Thus, it could be said that attempts to root out the doctor are anti-town.

This was me protecting my ass D1. A vanilla townie stating this would be redundant.
No, it would be a perfectly reasonable statement. I don´t see how stating the obvious would prove you´re the doc or why you´d think it would, but either way I see you´ve apparently changed your tune since then.

Granted, even if my no-lynch goes through,and the scum believe me, me getting nk'd wont matter in the slightest, but it will clear you guys of one suspect, so I have no regrets about this.
Furthermore, Even If for once I was smart and protected correctly, we'd be in the same situation today, so it wouldn't really help.

So as far as I'm concerned, being a doctor at this point doesnt mean diddly squat, other than innocence, and a very poor job of protecting.

Obviously it means plenty, you idiot. A doc save could give us an extra day and by outing me you´ve prevented that possibility which is exactly why you did it, and you know that perfectly well

I´m sure you probably think you were a likely lynch target for today, and certainly moreso than your partner. That makes me think you´re paired with Andy or dej, they seem the least likely lynches to me. If it was dej then you were doing an admirable job of distancing with crappy baseless attacks on him. Andy´s probably your partner though. IMO the more likely lynches just became clearly town as did Grimmy because if you were scum with him he´d be the one faking doc, probably.

I love how phail spends the majority of the claim post talking like he´s not the doctor. I guess he´s just no good at getting himself in the mindset he´s claiming to have =P

Your "logic" for giving up on no lynch sucks, you´re just impatient scum and you wanted to know who the doc is. I stated before that I supported nolynch, I just didn´t want to vote while on vacation in case something like this came up that would make me not want to end the day yet. And you cant use dej as an excuse because he clearly supported it.

In fact until you did something stupid there obviously would have been no lynch today, you just realized that your chances were better if you tried claiming now because you´re afraid of getting docpwned and you don´t want the odd number to come up

. And now you have to support your decision with stupid logic.

And of course, I think it should be abundantly clear to anyone with an inkling of sense that a doc wouldn´t voluntarily claim in this situation.

Die scum die.

Vote: Phail

Although there may still be reason to NL, I don´t feel like thinking about it ATM.

FUNFUNFUN! I'm assuming you did this because you're scum banking on that everyone has had a slight suspiscion of you being the doc b/c of this?

Cephrir for DOC

Granted a bad player (takes one to know one) made this claim, but it still planted a little fear into the hearts of everyone, especially because until now, no one has bothered contradict it.

On the matter of the dej protect: *shakes head* we noticed the scum have been using a very dileberate tactic so far: killing lurkers, and dejkha is far from one. I had the mistake of wanting to protect him once, but that was because he seemed even more townie that day than normal.
you were a high scum priority, and an easy enough target, I guessed that you would be among the first to die. Especially because while you claim to support killing certain people, you rarely took action. So, you wouldn't have left much of a trail at all.

Now that I see your true colors, I know that you were distancing yourself from the mislynches. Its such a simple tactic, I'm suprised that we dismissed it.

Now that I am sure that at least part of my accusation was correct, I feel confident enough to tell you that I realized halfway through that the no-lynch had a massive drawback. Think about it: two scum, three to lynch. any careless vote, and boom! quicklynch for SCUMWIN. As such:

Unvote

However, being flip-floppy at any given time is scummy looking, but I'm already enough of that, so i suppose it wouldn't have mattered.

come to think of it, my accusation of you doesn't really matter either because my lack of sanity on this day has cost me my credibility, as such I expect that we will lose, and at least cephrir will turn up scum.

Vote: Cephrir

Although I'm pleased to see this much vigor for the first time from Cephrir. I guess we've for the most part goaded you out. As I said before, its time to play.
------------------------------------
AndyTony:

To answer why I protected cephrir: I had recieved a statement from a more experienced player that roughly stated that cephrir and roflcopter were the most powerful players on that player list, and so I took the player's word for it and decided to protect one of the two powerful players. Next, I saw that dej seemed to come across as obv Town, and so protect him as he is a high scum priority. By N3 it was quite apparent that scum were killing lurkers, and I was afraid that since cephrir was a lurker, and a good player, he had a high chance of filling two criteria for a scum target.

to answer why even though I've been wary of him until this point:
Lots of people have been lurking in this game, so I wrongly decided to be polite and not pry into why he was lurking (I assumed it was meatworld reasons, such as grimmy's occupation, and It would be impolite to pry).

And another thing, I do have gut feelings, alkthough until today i have been repressing them, because they do not really have a logical basis.
--------------------------------------------
To cephrir: Forgive my language, but you've been a dick to us this game. as scum, you are of knowing that the day has to end at some point, even due to time constraints, and so you are just waiting to get kills every night. And, so that no one can build a case against you, you say nothing, and effectively never vote! Although you had to say something otherwise you would get replaced, and you had to at least make an argument or be especially scummy looking by not helping the town.

So you were not even showing us the respect to play the damn game or give us a fighting chance.

[madeofphail]

madeofphail, I think you're way too hard on yourself. You did a great job. The call to No Lynch was absolutely the right strategy move with an even number of players at LYLO. However, outing yourself as the doctor completely negated it. Still, it's a learning experience.

You are wrong. It is my fault that the scum won this match. I have been an idiot this entire game. Using the analogy before with ther army officer. My blunder has caused the defeat of all my comrades. This is made worse by the fact that we began as outnumbering them 6:1. I am to blame if anyone is, and everyone ripping on me is totally in the right.
As such I am to be stipped of rank, and dishonorably discharged. This is to say, after I finish the current game I am playing, I will no longer be participating in games on mafiascum.net as I will undoubtably screw over whichever faction I am aligned with.

The fact that this was my second game is no excuse, and My first game was a horrible event in which I bled all over the game, and screwed over the town. I have brought great dishonor to myself, and after seeing how much meta can play a part in games, I realize that the meta building against me dictates correctly that I am a horrible player, and a Liability to boot.

I should always be lynched Day one, as I am worse than empking, who at least wasnt trying to back up his incorrect claims with evidence that would mislead the town. I should not play any more games, as this would screw over whichever faction I play on, as Such I will finish the last game I am participating in, and then never play again.

I commend you all on your patience with me, even though I have been illogical, impatiant, rude, biased, cowardly, unhelpful, attention-whoring, hypocritical, and EPECIALLY an Idiot. I had one moment of shining with the no-lynch idea, but I was too much of a gutless idiot to follow through.

I sincerely apologize for my behavior, and while I do expect forgiveness, I am merely using the apology to state that I know that I am wrong, and that I will do something to correct the matter, as explained earlier.
--------------------------------------------
This being said, I don't want to harsh your guys mellow so I'll end on a more positive note:
1). You guys all did a great job.
2). No matter what I say about not trusting people, and how bad of a person I am, I make it a principle to always keep my promises. I didn't say I was vanilla, I promised that I wasn't town.
---------------------------------------------------
And I'll exit with a song that some of you may know:(one of my favorites that I was going to have as my bah post in the event of my mislynching when I was still doing a semi-honorable job).

This was a triumph
I’m making a note here, Huge Success.
It’s hard to always state my satisfaction.
Aperture Science
We do what we must, because, we can
For the good of all of us, except the ones who are dead.
But there’s no sense crying over every mistake you just keep on trying ‘till you run out of cake,
And the science gets done, and you make a neat gun for the people who are still alive.

I’m not even angry
I’m being so sincere right now
Even though you broke my heart and killed me
And tore me to pieces,
And threw every piece, into, a fire
As they burned it hurt because I’m so happy for you,
Now these points of data make a beautiful line, and we’re out of beta, we’re releasing on time.
So, I’m glad I got burned, think of all the things we learned, for the people who are still alive.

Go ‘head and leave me,
I think I prefer to sit inside
Maybe you’ll find someone else to help you
Maybe like mesa.
That was a joke, ha-ha, fat chance.
Anyway this cake is great; it’s so delicious and moist
Look at me still talking when there’s science to do
When I look up there it makes me glad I’m not you
I’ve experiments to run; there is research to be done
On the people who are still alive
And believe me I am still alive
I’m doing science and I’m still alive
I feel fantastic and I’m still alive
While you’re dying I’ll be still alive
And when you’re dead I will be still alive
Still alive, still alive.

[madeofphail]

EBWOP: Wasn't scum