Open 123 - Vengeful Mafia - Game Over! before 752

[Juls]

Hello...I will catch up ASAP. I think I have played with all of you before even if some of it was brief.

[Juls]

This game is certainly more complex than it seems at first glance. Just a few comments from the first couple pages:

Day 1: Each townie has 50% chance of nailing scum (2 out of the other 4 players) and 25% chance nailing the GF.

Now, assume the goon hammers a townie that was sitting at L-1 for no good reason and the townie shoots the goon.

Day 2: Each townie has 50% chance of nailing scum (1 out of the other 2 players) and 50% chance nailing the GF.

The mafia chances didn't exactly improve and the town has to make 1 correct decision to win, instead of 2.

This doesn't seem right. Perhaps you are just responding to Crazy but I also see this as you leading a vig kill. It is possible that scum can be 1 and 2 on the wagon or be the starter of the wagon or the middle of the wagon. What makes it more likely that scum will be the hammer?

Vote: Artem

(L-2)

On a side note, what is 100% obvious in a mislynch is that scum ARE on the wagon. If we do mislynch today then I think the smartest move to make is for the vig to kill from the people on the wagon. There is at worst a 1 in 3 chance to hit scum but a potential 100% (if both scum are on the wagon) chance to hit town if we vig kill someone not on the wagon.

1. How experienced would you consider?
2. How do you scumhunt?

1. I have two completed games...as you, Crazy, and Artem know I started back in October but I replaced out of all my games. I have decided to take things a little less personally this go around. So far it's going well. I still have a lot to learn but I think I am getting better as time goes on.

2. I usually try to determine what someone's motivation is for their action. I usually feel a little more comfortable on D2 so this one is going to be a real challenge for me.

My best method of scum hunting is rereading the thread, as it is often easier to pick out the scummy players.

I LOL'd :p (no offense)

[Juls]

EBWOP:

Unvote

I reread and I think I misunderstood what you meant. You were talking about a specific situation, I read it as a generality.

But the second part still stands about scum having to be on a wagon if we mislynch.

[Juls]

Yes you are right. I had not thought of it like that (with averages). However, the low end of probability by hitting someone on the wagon is 33% whereas hitting someone off the wagon, the low end probability is 0%. That's kinda the way I was thinking about it.

[Juls]

OIC...pressure is good.

afatchic

So there has been nothing that has happened the entire game that you think qualifies for a vote

Please explain what has happened during this game that makes you think Crazy is the place to put your vote. Those in glass houses...

[Juls]

EBWOP:

that is supposed to be

Vote: afatchic

[Juls]

Have you never heard the phrase "Those in glass houses shouldn't cast stones"?

It means you shouldn't be a hypocrite. You first question Artem and tajo about not having votes on anyone and then you suggest they should because enough has happened in this game that warrants votes. Yet you have a vote on Crazy with no explanation whatsoever. To "pressure" him? What exactly are you trying to pressure out of him? Usually pressure votes are used to get answers for something scummy that has been done. If he has done something, please explain it. Otherwise, I am going to "pressure" you with my vote because I want answers...you see how this works?

[Juls]

a) You are at L-2. Vote count on THIS page.

b) The only TRUE pressure vote is the L-1 vote because if you want everyone to have a vote on somebody and have no one at L-1 that means that we have to do a little round robin where everyone has one vote. Wow...awesome pressure.

c) I am voting for you because it is clear you understand the dynamic of this game. Yet you put someone L-1 and switched your vote within 2 minutes to start the game. In your 6th post you question the vigging of the GF when it is clearly stated on the wiki and even bolded. I have seen scum play the innocent townie and act as if they don't understand the rules. Next, you hypocritically challenged pop and Artem for not having votes on anyone. And you just added one more...you say Crazy is not scumhunting but the closest thing to scum hunting I have seen out of you is asking why pop and Artem hasn't voted.

[Juls]

i didn't check the wiki, why would this setup of this game be in the wiki?

Because it is in the very first line of Plum's second post? Did you read plum's posts? So your response to my comments are "lynch me"? Instead of being emo why don't you respond to my allegations. Or let me put it in question form:

1) What have you done to scum hunt?
2) What has Artem and Crazy done to be suspicious?
3) Why do you feel tajo is pro-town?
4) Why in post 82 did you say you would kill the hammerer and then in post 84 you said you would kill me? Do you think threats make you appear more or less townie?

[Juls]

@afatchic: Would you say what I am doing with you is scum-hunting? I pointed out some contradictions and hypocricy in what you are saying and you are OMGUSing me.

Also, you are absolutely threatening me. If you are town, you are threatening to vig me because I am suspicious of you which would lose us the game. If you are scum, you are trying to intimidate me into removing my vote. I think you are trying to use the threats as a town-tell but it is really a null-tell to me because I can see either side doing it. But if you are town, it is an irresponsible statement. You should be convincing me that you are town, not threatening to vig me. Do you realize that if a townie gets lynched that 1-2 of the voters will be town? If you are town, and you do vig me then what would that decision be based on?

[Juls]

i have played a couple days with her in another game, didn't like her there, played a few days with her here, don't like her here. so its a mixture between thinking she's scum, and just can't stand her...

Fact: you were in my other game for

1 day

.

That is how close you were paying attention. I see this as a pattern with you. You replaced into that game and were in the game for over two weeks claiming you would "read the thread ASAP"..."still catching up"...."soon guys..."...I was scum and saw an easy target. You were lynched.

The fact that you "can't stand me" because I accomplished my goal shows your level of maturity. If anything, you should be able to recognize the difference between my suspicions here, as town, and my suspicions there, as scum. I had nothing to go on there and I just made something up. Here, I am explaining why I think you are acting scummy and you are STILL not responding to it.

[Juls]

No i just think your personality in general is a prick. i honestly can't stand playing with you.

I'm sorry you feel that way. My accusations on you are not personal. I simply believe that you are scum right now. I don't see how that makes me a "prick". The jury is still out on the other game, and I don't wish to speak about it anymore since it is ongoing. If you could please put your personal feelings aside and finish this game then I will gladly watch for games you are in and not participate in those games. This game is supposed to be fun and I certainly don't want to be the cause for you not enjoying it.

[Juls]

In the other game I was scum and I didn't really have anything to go on because afatchic and his predecessor were both nonexistent. However, his predecessor said something about knowing something from the mod. As scum I made a fake claim around that comment. So basically I had a lame reason to vote him but it worked. Here, I have valid arguments on what he is doing to look scummy. I am saying he should be able to tell the difference by my level of analysis. Or should at least recognize that it is not weak points like in the previous game. He doesn't "know" I am town, that is not what I was trying to imply. I am saying he should see the differences in the way I am playing in this game compared to the other.

[Juls]

I understood what you meant, Artem. And I agree with you for the most part on tajo being a lurker/GF type. I am, however, torn between Crazy and tajo as the other scum. Crazy is reaching a bit with his arguments on you and tajo is lurking. I am not willing to hammer right now. And I will give ample warning before I even consider it. I really want to hear from tajo at this point. I think afatchic is V/LA too?

[Juls]

You don't find it scummy if someone votes someone based completely on the relations of someone else with that person? Artem has claimed that wasn't his only reasoning, but you can see how my mind saw that, right?

I understand what you are saying but what I don't understand is this...

I am suspicious of you and afatchic. The only reason I'm not pressuring afatchic right now is because currently he's not posting! When he comes back, I'll pressure him. He is my top suspect.

if you are suspicious of Artem and afatchic why is your vote on tajo, putting him at L-1?

[Juls]

Who is that directed at afatchic?

[Juls]

Tajo or Crazy is who I would say right now but I can't be sure. I don't think this is the type of game where you or anyone should be speed lynched. If someone hammers before the proper amount of discussion has been had then they should be vigged. I just don't get why if you are town you have resigned yourself to vigging someone instead of convincing us you are town or at the very least convincing us someone else is scum. I have 3 suspects and I know I am wrong about one of them at least because there are only two mafia. So I am not comfortable lynching or calling a vig target at this point.

[Juls]

@tajo: All I get from that post is afatchic is a newb and Artem/Crazy are experienced so that only leaves Juls to vote for.

To address your "points" against me...

Juls first vote and unvote for Artem is weird...

I misread Artem's first post...I read it as what he was suggesting was what should be done no matter what. I missed the following part of it and realized immediately my mistake and unvoted:

But, we're talking about a situation when a townie is sitting at L-1 for no serious reason and the scum has the choice to hammer.

.........

This really feels as scum exaggerating a case against an easy target.

Post 81 should be included in your selective quote. Post 83 is additional elements I noticed about afatchic and expands on my suspicions from post 81. Maybe it should have said "I am

also

voting you because..."

And I agree with you for the most part

on

that

tajo

could

be

ing

a lurker/GF type.

Why?

Fixed. I didn't mean it as a certainty. I meant I could see the possibility. Because a) I felt you were lurking and b) I could see where a Godfather would lurk on D1 in order not to draw suspicion because if the GF is lynched it is a town insta-win.

[Juls]

I see your points, Crazy and Juls, can you clearly concise why do you think afatchic is scum?

In order of what I feel is most important to least:

• 1. Complete lack of scum-hunting (implied if not explicitly said in Post 85)
  2. Random vote on Crazy that he says was "to pressure" Crazy (noted in Post 78)
  3. Hypocritically (and reaching) challenging Crazy and Artem for not voting. This looks like an attempt to build a weak case on either or the two.
  4. Making irrational vig threats. I can see scum doing this as a way to intimidate a townie to remove their vote. As I said before, I think he is pushing it so hard that it doesn't seem like a natural townie reaction. Instead of doing this, I would expect a town to answer my accusations calmly and logically.
  5. OMGUSing and acting emo because he played with me in another game.
  6. Questioning the rules early in the game. I have seen too many times someone ask the question "how many scum are there in this sort of game?" when they are scum. I consider this type of question a minor scum tell especially when it is noted clearly in the rules.

Regarding your post #144: Points a) and b) from the post you quote were not reasons I thought he was scum...they were answers to his questions and elaborations on my take on pressuring.

Townie playing poorly or scum trying to appear playing poorly? Thats the dilemma.

I am surprised that you think these two are the only explanations. How about scum playing poorly? Not TRYING to play poorly...just doing it. You say you have played with afatchic before...have you ever played with him where he was scum? Does he only play poorly as townie?

[Juls]

@Tajo: Please tell me if you have ever played with afatchic where he was scum?

@Artem: I would like afatchic lynched and I would say that if he was town to lynch Crazy. I base that on the idea that I think afatchic and tajo are a scum-pair after his afatchic defense that he has made in the past few posts. If I am wrong about that then Crazy is the next on my list.

[Juls]

Unvote, vote populartajo

Tajo has now worked his way to the top of my scum list. He is taking my least important reasoning for thinking afatchic is scum and hammering it as the only reason. And he is using that sole reason for claiming I am scum.

[Juls]

Yes I think you are scum with afatchic and I posted ALL of my reasons for thinking afatchic is scum in post 149 in response to your questions! RTFT!

[Juls]

So, at any point in your reasoning, the idea of afatchic being town has crossed your mind?

That is why I am asking you for games that you have played with afatchic where he was scum. I would like to see one. The guy has like 2000 posts and I find it difficult to find time to wade through them all. I will have time to do it on the weekend but if you have one that he has played in handy as scum I would like to take a look at it! I will also answer your first question once I have this information.

Question #2: I think defending his vote as a pressure vote was scummy. The fact is that he put the vote on Crazy in the random phase, was trying to solicit votes from you and Artem, and when asked about it claimed it was a pressure vote. He has went back and forth between saying we must be careful with our votes, to chastising you and Artem for not having votes, to claiming its ok to have a random/"pressure" vote on Crazy. It's scummy and inconsistent.

Question #3: Reaching, as in looking for something that doesn't exist, such as when he was trying to make an argument against you and Artem for not voting. It was weak.

Question#4: Fallacy. He wasn't about to be lynch. Sure he was at L-1 but if someone quick hammers in this game without reason they are scum...hands down. So yes, I think everyone should be calm in this game...especially D1. If you think it was scummy how you are lynched you have a vig kill to counter act the damage. If you are town, convince me why someone else should be lynched, not threaten me. My comments on this come from MY feelings by his threats. It made me nervous that my vote could lose us the game. If I am wrong about him and he vigs me we insta-lose. So I see a threat as being dangerous to town. If I then move my vote because of these feelings to a real townsperson then scum have accomplished their goal.

5&6 are differences of opinions. I'm not going to argue with you if you don't agree with me about them.

[Juls]

@tajo: Not really. I think it is like comparing apples and oranges. In a fast paced game like that you fly by the hip whereas in a game like this you have more time to be calculated and maticulous. To be EXTREMELY honest I spent 3/4 of that game trying to figure out when I had heal/hurt charges. I think that's why I slipped under the radar. I was genuinely confused. Did anything in that game change your opinion about me?

I am going to do a reread this weekend (of all my games) because I have got behind by playing the marathon games and finishing up some last minute school assignments before spring break. I am also going to look for an afatchic game where he was scum.

[Juls]

afatchic, this is your life...(btw, this was 1904 posts...I am tired...cut me some slack if there is a mistake or two).

Role Unknown Games

Mini 714 - Unknown
Open 123 - Unknown
Open 114 - Unknown
Mini 752 - Unknown
Mini 751 - Unknown
Open 118 - Unknown
Open 111 - Unknown
Mini 657 - Unknown?

Games with Town Alignment

Newbie 704 - Townie
Mini 703 - Townie
Mini 729 - Courier (Town)
Open 106 - Compulsive Vigilante
Mini 677 - Naive Doctor
Mini 723 - Townie (self hammer)
Mini 680 - Cop
Mini 727 - Townie
Newbie 671 - Townie
Open 93 - Townie
Newbie 706 - Doctor
Mini 721 - Townie
Mini 656 - Weak Doctor
Open 95 - Hider (Town)
Mini 668 - Town Referee
Newbie 663 - Townie
Open 93 - Townie
Mini 682 - Townie
Mini 665 - Townie (Mod Abandoned)
Newbie 655 - Townie
Newbie 637 - Townie

Games with Scum Alignment

Open 120 - Rebel (Scum)
667 - Mafia Godfather
Mini 706 - Mafia
Newbie 664 - Mafia goon
Mafia 653 - Mafia Goon (replaced in, 2 posts)
Mini 650 - Mafia Goon
Newbie 661 - Mafia Goon (claimed Mafia, voted self)


Let me preface by saying I paid attention to the games in which his alignment was mafia. I wanted to check if my arguments were valid when he was scum to counter tajo's suggestion that he was just townie playing poorly. This is what I found:

This

Can someone correct me if im wrong:

We are all Vanilla Townies, except for scum, and whatever is in the room we go into, is what power we become. for instance, if we have a pair of binoculars in our room, we become a watcher.... does that sound right?

and This

So this setup confuses me a bit...

would the rebels be Vanilla townies.... Guards be traitors... king be Mafia Godfather..

...sure does look a lot like what I described before. Scum asking questions to seem naive. Looks an awful lot like this too:

Do the scum auto lose if the GF is vig'ed? is says if he is ever killed, but nothing about being vig'ed.

Then there is the threats...

or maybe you are scum? that sounds a little better. if you was the doc why did you remove your vote so quickly when i claimed? you just realize that if you can get them to lynch me you can NK LK and scum are likely to win.

This is afatchic threatening the real doctor after he (afatchic) fake-claimed being the doctor. Looks an awful lot like this too:

k. then lynch me and ill prove you wrong, when you die with me.

And i don't consider that a threat, but more like a promise, or early warning. Right now if i die, Juls dies with me.

Lack of scum-hunting....

Not a big surprise that scum don't tend to scum-hunt as genuinely as townies but Mafia 667 is an example of general lack of scum hunting. He is called out on it by several players.

So...I am happy with the thought that afatchic/tajo are the scum pair in this game. I feel most confident that afatchic is scum of the two but I believe Artem to be the most solid townie player and his feelings are more strongly in favor of tajo so my vote will stay there.

[Juls]

Juls, did you check his play as town too?

I did not read his games as town but I did notice more often than when he is scum that he stayed in the game much longer. As scum he gets early attention. He even gets it when he replaces in almost immediately.

From my perspective I think afatchic is prob town playing poorly. Why from your perspective he cant be doing that, or at least have a neutral behaviour in this game?

Can afatchic be town playing poorly? Sure...but of the people in this game I think he is the most scummy. Why can't

you

open your eyes up to that instead of having me bend to your will? I put forth a lot of effort to try to show you where I am coming from and all I see from you is excuses for him. And being that I think you are the other scum, why would I trust your instincts on afatchic?

Why are YOU so sure he is scum? Ive given you reasons to make you rethink afatchic behavior and that Ive seen a bazillion of townies playing poorly being lynched D1 all the time. Have you?. The thing that really bugs me is WHY are you so blind to that possibility?

I have given you several reasons why I think afatchic is scum and I am not going to keep rehashing them. Nothing has changed on my opinion of him in the past week because he has been gone. I don't know why you want to continue to have the same conversation. I think he is scum; you think he is town playing poorly. Why are

you

so blind to the possibility he is scum?

What are your current thought of Crazy?

Crazy is my wildcard. I see a couple of things from him I don't like. For instance, I thought his argument on Artem was reaching. When he was trying to say Artem was scum because he thought you were godfather even though he put his suspicions on afatchic. It felt like he was just looking for a weak excuse to latch onto. Another thing was when he unvoted after defending his vote on you. It seemed like he kinda caved when he was getting attention for it. I can, however, rationalize town doing those two things. If we lynch you are afatchic and you flip town then he would definately seem like the next best option.

Why do you think I am scum with afatchic? Just becuase Im defending him or there is anything else?

A large part of it is you defending him but it also comes from him defending you as well. He called you pro-town real early and it just felt weird. I still don't see how he thought you were scum-hunting more than anyone else. So I see some connections from each of you independently. Also, you are completely dismissing my points so I don't really get good feelings about you on that point. It doesn't feel like you are trying to work with me, it feels like you are trying to work against me despite every effort I am making to work with you.

Why do you think Artem is town?

1. He is legitimately scum-hunting.
2. I haven't seen anything out of him to set off any alarms.
3. We share some of the same opinions about people in this game


So now a question for you...is the only reason you think I am scum is because we disagree on afatchic?

[Juls]

I'll address the rest when I have a little more time but just a quick question...why is afatchic "town playing poorly" and I am "scum". If you disagree whole heartedly with my arguments why am I not "town playing poorly"?

[Juls]

No I don't but clearly you think I am. So why is my play more scum than town?

[Juls]

Clearly I think you are town playing poorly? Where did you get that?
Of course you are not playing poorly. Everybody in this game realizes that. You are telling me to compare apples with oranges.

We are trying to lynch scum here. If we dont lynch scum we are closer to losing the game. The possibility of someone being townie playing poorly should primate in your reasoning more than the probability of he being scum.

I know that the game wouldnt end if we never lynched someone but I am giving reasons to reconsider your position about her and you are just ignoring them. I have no idea why.

The fact that you think Im scum because I AM considering that possibility is just confirming my theory. You know how I play as town. You know that I have done this before. I love how you ignored my question about Cybele.

Do you disagree with this?

First, I have not forgetten about your big post with lots of questions. I will answer that soon but I am really not in the mood for writing a big long response right now so I am just going to quickly address this.

You are twisting my words. I didn't say that you thought I was town playing poorly, I said that you think I am playing poorly. More specifically, you think I am scum playing poorly. So, my question is...why do you think it is more likely that I am scum playing poorly than town playing poorly.

And on your question if I disagree with that comment. Not entirely, but partially. Your comment suggests that we should be looking for townies and not scum-hunting. I charge that we should be doing both. I know I am town. I feel very strongly Artem is town and then there are you, Crazy, and afatchic. Afatchic seems the most scummy. You are defending her with all your might (which now is making me think maybe she IS the godfather and you are trying your best not to get an insta-loss). So what is wrong with town-hunting AND scum-hunting concurrently? And I am not ignoring your question about Cybele btw but that game lasted like 1.5 hours and for the most of it I was trying to figure it out so in order to see what you are talking about I am going to have to reread. Add that to my todo list. And just so there is no question of my sincerity in my promises (to respond to your question-filled post and go back and read the war in heaven game) I will unvote until I have finished those two things.

Unvote

[Juls]

I've started doing a reread of this game but I have been sick and have only been playing in spurts so I will post more when I feel better. I am @ around post 120. I just want to lay my case out as clear as possible because its frustrating that I am being accused of being scummy because I am scum-hunting. That only leads me to believe that I am not communicating very well. So I will get something up soonish.

[Juls]

@pop: can you tell me which was the game that you played with afatchic? I am going to read that one where he played as town but he has too many to read them all...

[Juls]

Just wanted to let you know there is a post forthcoming. I have a page full of notes that I need to put into readable format...I will try to get something up before I go to bed.

[Juls]

EBWOP

Mod: Can we get a prod on afatchic.

He hasn't posted since saturday and he is kinda 1/5 of this game so his input is necessary.

[Juls]

These are the connections I see between afatchic and populartajo

-Tajo's votes afatchic in RVS then confirms his vote on him. Then afatchic gives rationale about being fearful that tajo would have been lynched in the first couple of posts. Tajo accepts this and moves on.

-Beginning with post 32, tajo is finished looking at afatchic as possible scum. Done. Post

32

.

-Beginning in post 49 tajo begins making excuses for afatchic.

-Post 82 afatchic declares tajo as pro-town.

-Post 86 afatchic says that tajo is scum-hunting.

-Post 90 afatchic says yet again tajo is protown

-Post 132: tajo says Afatchic is obvtown.

-Post 142: tajo defends afatchic suggesting it is not possible for him to have a master plan as scum because he is townie playing poorly. @tajo: I don't see it as a master plan at all...I see afatchic as scum playing poorly.

Various questions/comments directed at Tajo

In post 35 you said "I'm waiting for Slicey for next question". Did that next question ever come? I may have missed it?

In post 162 you say that "in the majority of my games there are town players playing poorly that become easy targets for scum, at least for one post". You are saying that but you are basing your whole case that afatchic is town on one post where he asks who he should vig. A total of one posts! You did the same thing on War in Heaven with Cybele. The only thing that I get from this is a meta from you that all someone has to do is say something very pro-town early in the game and you are done looking at them.

Analysis of afatchic's town game that tajo wanted me to read

This is the stuff I get from that game:
1) He tried to pull a town gambit. He put gecko @ L-1 to see if he would try to force a counter claim from one of the power roles. It was a good thought but poorly executed. I actually have more respect for afatchic based on this and I honestly think it weakens tajo's argument that afatchic is just a terrible player. So I

2) He has outbursts as town. That gives afatchic a minor townpoint since he had a little outburst in this game too.

3) Scumhunting. This gives afatchic big fat scumpoints in this game. He has yet to scum hunt. Period. My biggest reason for suspecting him. He at least scumhunted in that game. Show me where he has done it in this game? Again, tajo's argument that afatchic is town playing poorly is weakened.

Responses to tajo's post 202

Can you read any game he plays as town, specially the ones I played with him?

Done.

I appreciate your effort but you dont have a case other than null-tells and things you consider scummy but that in my experience arent exact indicatives od scum

Do you realize that you are asking me to ignore what I find suspicious and only look at what you find suspicious?

Have you ever been in a wagon of a townie playing poorly before?

Yes. I am not sure I see the point?

Could be the questions I made at the beginning, couldnt be?

Your questions were about experience and how someone scum-hunts. Those could have been just as easily made by scum.

Like you are doing?

I'm not dismissing your points, I just disagree with you and have been showing counter example after counter example. In mathematics (which I am minoring in) you cannot make a proof by

n

number of examples that show it to be true but you can disprove by giving 1 counter example. I have given way more than that. I understand this is not mathematics but you get the analogy I hope.

Responses to tajo's post 209

I usually play that way and you and Crazy have an idea how I play as town. If I think someone is town (even worse, if I peg him as town playing poorly) then its very probable that there is scum in the attacks. Doesnt this make sense to you?

Have you ever been wrong?

There is not the possibility of me town preventing a potential mislynch of someone I think its town?

Of course, there IS the possibility but I see a lot of connections between you two and its hard to ignore them.

Responses to tajo's post 211

If I am right about her he made the typical scum mistake of going against the easy target, all-attack mode.

Read my masonry game (link in my wiki)...I went all attack mode on a townie as a townie. This is how I play when I feel strongly about someone. If you want to know how I play as townie, Artem has played with me as townie in my newbie game. I did the same thing there. I went all attack mode on not one but TWO townies. Sometimes I miss, sometimes I hit.

Analysis of Crazy

Crazy has a trend of backing off arguments when pushed a little. In Post 51 he starts down a line of questioning with Artem then in post 55 he changes his mind and stops. Another instance is when in Post 117 he changes his vote to afatchic after Artem and I pressure him for having it on tajo and keeping him at L-1. Somewhat akin to that is when he says he thinks Artem and I are a scumteam in Post 183 and then never really goes anywhere with it. It seems as if he may have been testing the water a bit to see if anyone would bite.

Although I get town vibes from Crazy for the following posts:
-Post 88: points out that afatchic was previously concerned with quick lynching but now is complaining about people not voting.

-Post 119: Points out and questions why afatchic thinks tajo is protown.

@Crazy: In post 98 you were on board with an afatchic/tajo scum team...what has happened to change your mind?

Regarding my views on Artem.

I have been asked a couple times why I believe Artem is town. The following posts give me a strong townie vibe from him:

Post 37 - Calls tajo on asking questions without providing analysis of his answers.

Post 61 - Townie explanation of why he voted afatchic then later unvoted him.

Post 95 - solid analysis of what afatchic and tajo is saying/doing especially regarding the vig threats.

Post 169 - Excellent catch of a potential tajo scum-slip.

[Juls]

EBWOP

vote: tajo

I forgot to add this. My vote will be to lynch tajo or afatchic today unless something else super scummy comes up. I am really tired of trying to convince someone I think is scum of my beliefs. It's futile.

[Juls]

I lean that way, yes, but I know you aren't quiet as sure if it's afatchic or Crazy as the other. That is why I am voting tajo. I would gladly lynch either of them today.

[Juls]

Juls: She's seems to be contributing well but her OMGUS-like behaviour and distracting the town by talking about another unrelated game is scummy.

please tell me where I am OMGUSing? And I can totally see how you read the thread because me discussing another game was REQUESTED of me by pop. He asked me to read a game of afatchic's to see how he played as town.

[Juls]

tajo...you sure do like to use meta a lot. It would be smarter if you played

this

game instead of reliving all your past games. Meta is a useful tool but you shouldn't base your whole game on it or expect everyone else to.

[Juls]

I'm so exhausted right now...I have skimmed the past day or so's activity. So this will be short and sweet.

If I had to assign percentages to who I think is most to least scummy it would be like this:

85% - afatchic/Empking
51% - tajo
40% - Crazy
1% - Artem
0% - Juls

I have always thought afatchic was most scummy and my case on tajo is mostly due to the connections I listed in my book post. So that is why my vote is on you tajo. Also, as I said before, I think Artem is most protown and he felt more sure in you than afatchic. I thought it was best for us to be on the same page. With Artem removing his vote, it is best to put it back on Empking since he is my most scummy.

Unvote. Vote Empking

[Juls]

@Tajo: How long are we going to do this back and forth about the same thing? Like I said in post 231...trying to explain why I think Empking (afatchic) is scummy to you is not getting anywhere. I don't have the mentality to go through another round of questions with you...so I am taking a break from this game until the weekend. I REALLY hope we move toward a lynch by then because to be very honest, the game is getting boring to me now.

Would you like me to take that as an officially announced V/LA period, Juls?

[Juls]

@Plum: Yes...consider me V/LA for this game until the Weekend. I am frustrated.

[Juls]

Just posting this in all my games...if I have promised content it may have to wait. I want to play in some marathon games this weekend. I will probably catch up on all my normal length games on Sunday night..

[Juls]

My opinion: my vote stands. I am ready to lynch Empking. I feel very good about the tajo/Empking scum team. The only other person I am willing to lynch at this point is tajo but I think it will tell me what I need to know about tajo if Empking happens to be town. Even if Empking is town (which I don't believe) his lynch will provide us with some valuable information, afording he doesn't lynch one of the other townies.

And to crazy...those % wasn't meant to add up to 100% it was out of 100% for each person. This game isn't a "whole", each person is a "whole"...some people are just "holes" like tajo....just kidding tajo *kiss* (sorry for blowing up in the other game at you)

[Juls]

Because we are moving toward a lynch and your predecessor, afatchic, was most scummy of everyone here.

[Juls]

Have you read the thread Empking? Read my posts in particular. It's unfortunate you got thrown into it but it is what it is. I think we have repeated everything so much that we need a lynch now.

[Juls]

Can someone please explain the case on Crazy? I don't see how he is any more scummy than Empking. I still think Empking is the best place to place my vote because I think it is Empking/Tajo but I am willing to listen if there is something major I am missing here.

[Juls]

Come on tajo don't gloat. I think we put forth a pretty solid effort.

[Juls]

GG town, and good job Plum.

[Juls]

you can post quicktopic Plum...its fine by me.

[Juls]

Juls, do I have your permission to post your quicktopic? I assume you don't mind because you made a comment to Artem for 'after the game' in there, but it would be nice to get explicit permission from both yourself and Crazy. Was planning to ask y'all previously, but procrastination can do ugly things.

Also, yay, I can change my avatar without worry of disturbing a game I'm modding. I'm glad you two found the modding good. This was my first modding endeavor, and everything seemed to go off fairly smoothly; I'm glad about that. Suggestions for improvement?

Real mod notes/vague, disorganized thoughts on the game coming soon to a theater near you.

waiting for this.

[Juls]

I actually take the blame for the loss. I kinda pushed Crazy to jump on the Empking wagon. I should have let him play at his own pace.

[Juls]

Lack of strong stance here might have been a factor in the loss. As might this:

If I had to assign percentages to who I think is most to least scummy it would be like this:

85% - afatchic/Empking
51% - tajo
40% - Crazy
1% - Artem
0% - Juls

A meatworld friend and former scummer looked at that and gaped . That buddying might have been just a little too blatant. Crazy seemed to be a little shocked/not too pleased himself. Perhaps you could have made more advantageous use of the quicktopic thread?

That was just a lazy post. A post for the sake of posting. Spoiler alert:

I get lazy as scum.

[Juls]

afatchic...I know you don't like me but if you could just take some friendly advise. When someone targets you as scum, and you start attacking them personally, it just opens the door for more and more attacks. I just wish you had not been so personal about your attacks and called me a "prick". If I were town, I would have really wanted to lynch you more because it was such an unnecessary comment.

[Juls]

Just out of curiousity...if Crazy had hammered tajo at any point when he was at L-1...and of course tajo would have vigged me....Artem, who would you have thought was more scummy, Empking or Crazy?