Mini 739 ~ Mafia Jailbreak, Game Over

[Moriarty147]

I just finished reading through the thread (all 12 pages of it) right now. Will post in a couple hours.

[Moriarty147]

I'm still not quite done reasoning through all the 12 pages, but with the deadline approaching and the new input from SpyreX, I have more pressing issues to take care of. First off:

Rhinox

What bothers me about Rhinox is the fact that he exploded under pressure when he was voted to L-3...hardly any threat for an impending lynch. On one hand, it doesn't make sense for a townie to suddenly explode under such little pressure, so quickly. On the other hand, it doesn't make much sense for a mafian to start making blatant AtE when he could merely attempt to somehow change his opinion and blend in better. As a result I'm highly inclined to consider the AtE as a null tell. So, the other portions of his case:

- There appears to be a lot of misquoting and misattribution to the discussion around early day 1 and the SK. Rhinox kept raising a valid point to RedCoyote: namely, how does considering the existence of an SK, over the existence of a general "scum" composed of all mafia factions, an SK, etc, alter day 1 for the better? The main links between mafia wouldn't be highly evident on day 1 (and would require an already flipped scum or a successful cop investigation to work off of, anyway), so there's actually quite little to differentiate between an SK's posts on day 1 and a mafian's.

- However, on the other hand, what bothers me is Rhinox's appeals to WIFOM. CF Riot showed a couple good ones in his case on him, and I'm not sure what he's trying to get at.

- This is interesting. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it. It is actually rather strange that a lot of the Rhinox wagon moved to the RC wagon, and most of the people staying off it stayed off it.

Overall, I'm not sure what to make of Rhinox atm. The evidence against him can be either used to help a case for him being either scum or town, and overall I personally think he's town.

RedCoyote

RedCoyote seems to be very virulently arguing that you

must

consider the setup in your day 1 play, and on a couple of occasions suggests that playing the setup is beneficial for town - which it's not. Such play leads to town grasping at straws and getting directed by the people who know the most about the setup, namely the scum. However, what does he actually have against him?

I don't like it when people get pessimistic.

To me, townies should always have some sort of zeal, some sort of indignation in their hearts when they are being voted or fear they are going to be lynched.

I thought I'd bring this up, as you consider it a personal scumtell and your most major point against Rhinox, when I consider it rather useless. Why wouldn't a scum get equally indignated when they are voted? To me pessimism is more of a towntell than a scumtell: why would a scum give up instead of fighting until the end? This makes no sense at all.

- A couple other things disturb me in your big case against Rhinox in post 221, where you make your case against him. For instance, it was you who revisited the SK discussion, even after it was almost about to be abandoned. Also, I'm not seeing his buddying up to bionicchop either, which I would like to see more evidence towards.

- Overall, I'm conflicted against him. While he does seem to be pressing his case with extreme zeal, which might indicate a towntell, it equally well could be scum backed into a corner. He definetly pinged my scum-dar, and I would probably be voting him were it not for pops.

Bionicchop

- Starts off the day with SK discussion that seemed extremely strange. Later explains it away with the claims that it would both enable him to read Rhinox better, and cause discussion beyond its original purpose, which it did.
- In post 83, claims that the early day 1 discussion was not about "nothing", when it actually was mostly irrelevant: a good chunk of it was simply about playstyle.
- In general, appears to be acting Pro-Town, with very little objectionable content.

Now, as for the real problem people. SpyreX did a very good job doing RC wagon analysis, as well as forming cases on Rishi and Huntress. The Rishi wagon jump is probably the most distressing, as it feels more opportunistic than something than he actually believes in. That being said,

pops

RC is saying that we should assume the worst until better is proven. Ok, sure. The way he discusses it though is not as curt it should be though, which gives me a slight scum vibe.

This makes no sense. So, you have no problem with what he is saying, but then claim that the way it is worded gives you a slight scum vibe. Explains it away later as:

The first bold is me saying he didn't answer his questions as curtly as he could. It's suspicious, especially in terms of his meta.

This is fairly suspicious, so not only is it not anything to be suspicious about to begin with, but it's purely a meta tell? Hmm. Interesting.

- Votes for Rhinox largely based on buddying to RedCoyote and Rhinox's AtE.
- Then a lot more useless fluff posts before:

Rishi: Is my case against Rhinox valid enough for a vote? Is Korts' and iamusername and rest of crapwagon's arguments valid enough for a vote on me?

There were 3 people on your wagon at that time, why mention 2 of them and not SpyreX? That's vaguely strange. Also that line reads to me as if you are trying to artifically inflate the size of your wagon.
- Later quotes a game where he evidences his meta scumtell against RC. Still not believing it.
- Still more fluff, then his wagon jump here, curiously around the time when Rhinox's wagon started dissolving. His reasoning is complete crap, why did RC need "more" pressure anyway?
- Still doesn't provide any reasoning as to why RC is scummy
- Then he claims here that RC was trying to tie himself to him, yet, pops, wasn't this one of your reasons as to why

Rhinox

was scum, earlier, when you voted him?
- So far it appears that

all

of his scumtells are based off of meta. While in a game such as this, scum would probably be good enough to try to avoid making any overt scumtells, an overreliance on meta tells is disturbing, as it allows scum to hide behind votes for town without actually forming any hard evidence against them, therefore allowing them to lynch town easier. In other words, this is certainly not helping my opinion of him right now.

At the moment, I highly think that pops is scum,

Vote: pops

. However, I am fairly distressed with SpyreX's attempt to derail the wagons on Rhinox and RC this late in the date. Equally well he could have made that post at the beginning of day 2. Of course, this winds up being a WIFOM, though if one of the Rhinox or RC wagons go through today (especially the latter), and it flips as scum, then SpyreX is definetly worth another read.

In any order, expect another post from me about the other players later today.

[Moriarty147]

Oh, some minor things I'd also like to address: I find OGML's scumspiracy slightly out-of-place on day 1. It seems a bit odd, and using past games as "evidence" for such a conspiracy is weird. I'd honestly wait for some flips before suggesting such an idea, especially when it's looking that the day 1 lynch currently is either RC or Rhinox. As for Huntress's claim about RC bussing pops, I wonder if equally well she thinks that pops is bussing RC at the same time?

[Moriarty147]

Arguments so based in emotion are used to cloud the rational judgment of another person.

Saying things like Rhinox has said lead me to believe he's trying to arouse sympathy for his plight, rather than actually attempting to change his ways.

This is true, yes, but what bothers me is the

time

at which Rhinox decided to go on his AtE escapade, namely when he was at L-3 and really in no danger at all. If he were scum, wouldn't it be simpler to change his playstyle, concede a few points, and try to blend in, rather than go on a massive AtEfest and raise suspicion on yourself even further?

Do you think Spy will move his vote before the deadline, should it come to that? Will you?

This was never in question, what does that have to do with anything?

Re: pops voting RC, pops's reasoning for voting RC appears to be complete crap so far. Would definetly like to see more input from him. Or at least something, a single shred of evidence that's not based on RC-meta.

Come to think of it, none of the cases on RC seem terribly convincing at all on a re-read.

Why are we assuming four scum in the game?

For reasons that have been discussed to death in the first couple pages of the thread. It is the best course of action to assume the worst-case scenario amount of total "scum", i.e. all anti-town players such as all mafia factions, SKs, etc. The fact that you are complaining over this issue this late in the thread makes me wonder about you.

@bionicchop2: the issue is that meta is unreliable. What makes you think that a scum-pops couldn't, for instance, change his meta between the last game he was scum and this one?

Worry about individually scummy players. When we lynch them and they are scum, then we move to connections. Not the other way around.

QFT. I'll worry about how my opinions on pops will change given RC or Rhinox flipping scum only after they actually flip scum. In any case, either of them flipping scum will warrant scrapping my current thoughts on the game and doing a re-read, because clearly it means that I was completely off in my judgement.

Oh, and what's vaguely distressing is how well iamausername has been slipping under the radar this entire time. Not sure what to make of it so far, but definetly something to keep my eye on in the future.

Also, something I'd like to ask Rhinox: you claim that the wagons on both you and RC had a significant amount of scum on them, so who do you think the scum might be? It's strange for you to make such a claim (which I thought notable as well) and then not do any wagon analysis of your own whatsoever later.

[Moriarty147]

OGML in post 313 really explains Rhinox well too I think.

That is, indeed, a plausible reading. I still think Rhinox is town atm, but that conviction is starting to shatter as time goes on. Hm.

You said you were distressed that Spy might be trying to derail the wagons on pops and I, I was asking if you thought, as the deadline gets even closer, Spy would switch his vote or not. I also asked if you would.

I personally can't read Spy's mind, but I doubt that given the choice between a lynch or a no lynch, that he'd still stick for a no lynch, as that gives town strictly less information to work off of in day 2. Personally, if needed, yes, I would switch to Rhinox at deadline, but as of now I would much rather see pops hang.

I'm intending to see how deeply motivated you are at advancing popsscum. Do you think pops is a plausible lynch today?

Plausible? Well, it's hard to say. Overwhelmingly likely today will end in either a lynch of Rhinox or you. A wagon jump at the last minute to pops is possible though, especialy if he continues to be as unhelpful as he is right now.

[Moriarty147]

I'm reading you within a limited capacity RC (basing you're alignment off my experience from just one game). But if i couldn't read you at all, i would certainly lynch you immediately. That's how people deal with K7, that's how you deal with any unreadable player.

This is actually a pretty terrible tactic, because it assumes that given the absence of information, then you should assume scum, even though there may be other, scummier players in the game, and also totally discounts the possibility of there being any investigative roles whatsoever. This might be a good idea later in the game, but on day 1? Hell no.

I'm voting Rhinox right now though, because of the vanilla claim. If he's town you're next. If he's scum, I'd be surprised at your accuracy enough to at least wait. I actually put Rhinox at even money right now (back at starting point 0), from BC's testimonies and his consistency with the WIFOM logic and AtE. He's consistent to himself. But afaik, unless someone has more developed theory concepts than me, we need to lynch him because of the claim. And i think his flip would be quite an info mine.

The lining up lynches issue has already been discussed by RC, and I agree with it. The problem with the claim was that while IAU brings up a decent point, Rhinox made an early claim for no reason, and therefore instead of it being a last-ditch attempt to save himself from an impending lynch, it's just...there.

There's lots of good reasons to lynch Rhinox if you're convinced that he's scum, CF Riot brings up several. This is not one of them.

To answer CFriot's question, if i didn't already, RC is at the top of my list because he's failin the meta i set up for him, and he has no other tests. I'll use K7 as an example again, poor guy. He's so unreadable, you want to lynch him D1 anyway. Now if he actually quit lurking long enough to say something scummy, then you would have double reason to vote him.
It's similar. RC has failed the only barometer i have for him.

The problem is that, again, you assume that everyone else is equally townie, as you are lynching the person with no information on him, as you obviously don't think anyone is outright scummy, and you're doing it on day 1, which is far too early for such a lynch to occur.

The other issue is that none of us have a similar barometer to judge RC and therefore for all we know you're scum hiding behind "lol meta tell" reasons to vote for a townie without reprocussions.

Also would like to see some input from Rishi regarding the stuff brought up in Jahudo's post #380, especially given how that slip-up of Rhinox's really wasn't.

Also:

So, yea, I'm takin it quiet for the next few days. Lynch whomever, I'll check in and throw my vote if it looks like we're going to hit a NL.

Huh?!?

[Moriarty147]

In related news, I saw The Princess Bride for the first time a few hours ago. Apparently, up until today I was the only person on this site that hadn't

Inconcievable.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. ~Vi

[Moriarty147]

Moriarty147, can you compare and contrast the two most popular wagons for us?

Extremely tired atm, will do so later today.

[Moriarty147]

My apologies for taking so long to post, it's the second week of midterms here and I just had one today, as well as another on Thursday.

Anyway. First off, I'm kind of surprised at how Rhinox's wagon seems to be dissolving and RC's still gaining steam, given how between the two of them, Rhinox has far far more transgressions against him.

This is a bit of an overreaction, I think. I was just wondering why you felt the need to single moriarty out with a question.

Why not? I was one of the 2 people voting him at the time and I haven't offered detailed opinions on which of the major wagons I'd vote for today (to avoid a no lynch) if I had to. It's certainly not a strange question by any means.

RC I'm fairly confident is town. I've read through a lot of the cases on him and they seem to be fairly weak. Most of it's related to fallout from the earlygame SK discussion (Huntress, I'm fairly sure that post where you vote RC makes a valid point that his argument is useless, but nowhere does it show why it's

scummy

), and in some cases I'm not even sure (pops and Rishi). I like bio's case on him, but disagree with its points. What I don't like is the amount of people who seemed to just piggyback on it. Not sure what to make of it just yet.

Rhinox...less confident that he's town. Rhinox, if you had to, where would you move your vote today? Given that it's extremely extremely unlikely that OGML is going to get lynched today. Even after we throw out the AtE and WIFOM, there's not that much scumhunting going on, but he does appear to approach a lot of things from strange angles that may indicate a different approach to scumhunting. I'd much rather see pops or Rishi lynched today, but I'd vote Rhinox over RC if those were my only two choices.

Actually we could have everyone say what persons they would like to see lynched and we could do a matrix. I'll start, i'm only willing to see RC lynched.

Not sooner than a couple posts ago you were willing to vote Rhinox as well, then switched back to RC based off of Rhinox's AtE. Now you won't vote Rhinox at all? Strange.

I'm actually kind of annoyed at the fact that a great deal of the pops case seems to be from him posting riddles. Equally well if we remove those, we still have content equivalent to, say, Rishi's. The riddles themselves are a freaking null tell.

That being said, my vote is staying on pops due to a bunch of reasons (strange vote-hopping and the case on RC which basically amounts to "I'm not sure what alignment he is so I'll assume he's scum and vote him,

on day one

", which is just idiotic this early in the game)

[Moriarty147]

Could you go into detail about the part in parenthesis? The way you write it seems like it becomes less idiotic in later days to lynch somebody you have no good read on - since you italicized "on day one". This is the exact opposite of how I feel. I certainly wouldn't want to flip a coin in lylo. If the mod came in and said we need to pick one day which we would completely random lynch somebody by dice rolling, I would make it day 1 every time. Please explain your emphasis of the day one part.

The problem with quicklynching someone you have

no read

on, as opposed to

a scummy read

on, on day 1, is this essentially eliminates the possibility of GETTING a read on them later in the game. Unreadable scum often become readable after their scumbuddies flip, for instance. LYLO certainly isn't the place to lynch someone at random either, but neither is day 1

if there are scummier people around on day 1

, which I believe there are.

[Moriarty147]

Just to say that I got my prod, but will be too busy to post anything until Tuesday. Sorry.

[Moriarty147]

Still tired (goddamnit midterms), but should be fine now.

Not liking pops at all, from the rather awful case on SpyreX to the mistake about BC blocking someone on the didn't-send-in-PMs list (i.e., he didn't) to the backtracking on said case on SpyreX, to the waffling on day 1 about both RC and Rhinox, etc.

Need to do a reread first before I vote someone, though.

[Moriarty147]

Moriarty

, what are you looking for in your reread? Why are you hesitant to vote Pops today when you were voting for him all of yesterday?

The day is far from over, and day 1 focussed on two people who (to at least a majority of the town) seemed scummy who both flipped town, so I'm not sure haste in voting is to be encouraged now, especially as deadline still is not very soon by any means.

As for my reread, I am trying to see if I missed any tells in day 1, especially now that we have some flips (and maybe we'd have some links come up between players that are suspicious...)

As for Huntress, I'm still not sure how that's a valid case on SpyreX. It seems extremely contrived that him thinking that RC and Rhinox might *both* be town (shock! awe!) when they both have wagons on them is necessarily a scumtell in any way, shape or form. As for the final vote, lynch > no lynch, etc. Would like to see some more reasoning from you, if that is at all possible.

[Moriarty147]

Bleh, I blame the Touhou 12 demo for my lack of activity, combined with the fact that I think I've actually made my position at the moment abundantly clear:
My opinion at this moment is that yes, pops is scum. The proof is there in a lot of posts in this thread, the transgressions against him are multiple and there is really nothing more to say about the matter at the moment.

Other than that, I'm mainly waiting on a post from Huntress at the moment. Both her cases on RC (which seemed largely artificial and contrived) and her case on SpyreX (which I've already mentioned seems completely invalid) are rather disconcerting. Then again, why would scum place a vote for SpyreX instead of the obvious lynch target, especially when he's made this many transgressions? Hmm.

"We lynched a townie yesterday, therefore lynching is a bad idea. Everyone should vote No Lynch."

Help me out, someone, which logical fallacy is pops employing here?

If anything, you're stretching the meaning of his post. Nowhere is he advocating No Lynch, he is merely advocating that tunnelling on a single player for the entire day is a bad idea due to the fact that if he's town it's easily giving scum a free pass.

[Moriarty147]

I think Rishi is town due to circumstantial evidence on him not taking such a primed mislynch wagon.

By that logic, shouldn't Huntress also be town if we consider today's wagon? Otherwise, Rishi was on RC's wagon yesterday, so I'm not seeing your logic here.

[Moriarty147]

I'm personally inclined to think this game of Guess Who may be detrimental to scumhunting, though I see its purpose to an extent.

Of the connections, I can only see one of them, and it's to a non-voter not on pops's wagon.

The thing that's still bothering me about Huntress is poor cases *plus* not being around anywhere, but then she comes out of nowhere and presents a crap case on SpyreX of all people. This is kind of strange for someone who I've assumed to be scum, for reasons of it makes no sense for scum at all. Which is why I'm waiting for another post from her for more reasoning to see if this is a legitimate cause for not thinking she's scum, or not.

@pops: where do you claim I arrive at "therefore obvscum"

without giving sufficient justification?

[Moriarty147]

Vote pops, he's seriously not town

Post #85: Uses the word 'interesting'. Yes, I am saying that is a scumtell. When you say "X is interesting" in a game of Mafia, what you are saying is "X is something that I could be taking a stance on". By doing that, you invite others to take a stance on that issue by drawing their attention to it, while carefully avoiding actually taking one yourself.

I disagree on that stance. It is possible that you notice something extremely out of the ordinary in a given mafia game, but can't tell for sure if it is a tell in any way. Therefore calling something interesting is a decent way to bring such a thing to other people's attention and see if someone else can extrapolate any alignment information from it.

That particular post was a good example. Said incident was strange, but by no means a scumtell.

That being said, #487 disturbs me. As did the lack of content in general. The case in #200 seemed largely based around RC being

unhelpful

, not

overtly scummy

. Since then, he really has not bothered too much to attempt to figure out anyone else's alignment in D1.

To be quite honest, I'd much prefer a Rishi lynch today. Mainly, pops's AtE's have been getting to me to such a degree and I'm not entirely sure if scum would be made of so much fail today.

Moreover, while they both haven't been that great at scumhunting, at least pops has made a good attempt at it (even if I don't see half of his cases...why would checking someone's meta be a towntell? when did SpyreX actually misread something? when did I arrive at "therefore obvscum" without sufficient justification?) he's at least making a heartfelt attempt at it. Rishi is essentially made of "Busy. Will post later. I promise." which to me has a feel of classical lurkscum tactics. When he does post, they usually lack useful content and more importantly seem to be very waffly when it comes to actual stances on players. For all he has against him, pops at least is

active

.

Therefore,

##Vote: Rishi

.

In addition, I'd finally like that post from Huntress already.

[Moriarty147]

EBWOP: "such a degree" should be "some degree"

[Moriarty147]

HE's over Huntress because he's a alternative lynch i can actually get to happen. Huntress is still worse. I'm not really sure about Spyrex. That very last vote was joke/policy/ugh vote because i said i was voting the next person to speculate on pairs based of me being scum. Which is a false premise and waste of time.

um, wow, pops...just, wow.

So first you claim you did a reread of Rishi in 10 minutes, and this was enough for you to vote and bandwagon him?

Then you claim you vote him simply because he's not you and you can potentially make the lynch go through?

Then you claim a vote of yours was a joke vote? Near the deadline on day 2?

Fine, then.

##Unvote, ##Vote: pops

How about actually presenting a case on Rishi? You claim I'm me-too-ish (you still haven't answered the questions I asked you in my post, FWIW), but you provided virtually no reasoning beyond "Rishi was playing ref last night" for your latest vote? There's still enough time before deadline to, like, actually present a proper case, if you'd bother to spend more than 10 minutes on it (and given how much you post in this thread, I assume you have enough free time to actually give Rishi's single page of posts a proper read-through.)

@Riot: I've been increasingly wary of pops D2 because while he's been fairly scummy, lately a combination of his AtEs and just being so fail in general have led me to apply the Too Scummy To Be Scum reasoning to pops (part of it was due to a similar situation happening D1 to Rhinox. I'm not so sure if pops was simply acting similarly to him in the sense of being a fail townie, or what. These latest posts, however, are inexcuseable)

[Moriarty147]

FWIW, I'm not sure if this is the norm for this forum, but on the forum where I usually play mafia on, it is customary for the mod to announce at the beginning of the day if a certain action undertaken on that day will make the game unwinnable for town from this point on.

I have not seen this done outside Semi-/Open setups on this site. ~Vi

In any order, I'm perfectly fine with the No Lynch scenario and think it's the best thing that we can do today. I'm not voting it until I can get a re-read in, which means I should vote tomorrow.

As for massclaiming today, that is a terrible idea. ESPECIALLY if we are voting no lynch. We really do not need scum targeting all the power roles this early on if it can be avoided.

FWIW (again), I'm kind of vaguely surprised that OGML/ToD was the NK and not bio...considering OGML/ToD was vaguely suspicious whereas bio had an aura of being townie (therefore an unlikely mis-lynch) *and* on top of that was also a power role.

Not sure if following down this path is a good idea, as NK speculation is pretty much Universally Bad(TM) and guaranteed to lead you into traps and mazes of WIFOM, but still, it *is* something worthy of note imho.

Oh and btw, happy (belated) birthday Vi!

[Moriarty147]

I honestly find the whole concept of claiming order a bit strange and am not sure what its point is. In any order, I claim vanilla.

[Moriarty147]

Around, just barely.

It is strange for me to see Moriarty first "assume Huntress to be scum" then after Huntress made a "crap case on Spyrex", Moriarty seems less certain that Huntress is scum. I don't know how he/she came to that opinion.

Hypothetically, if she were scum, why make a very weak and pretty bad case on someone who nobody else thinks is scum, rather than joining the main wagon or creating a case on someone else likely to be lynched?

The issue is it made her stick out while not at all furthering her goals, if she were scum and SpyreX were a townie, which is why I treated that as a very minor tell towards her being townie at the time.

Huntress wagon is slightly strange due to the general lack of opposition, as has been noted by SpyreX.

If I target somebody, and that same person is watched, the watcher gets no result. If I was RB, I would be seen visiting the person.

Hrm. Well, this is strange. Technically speaking most watchers will also see doc protects as well as RB attempts, so I'm not sure why they wouldn't see a jailer jailing someone.

It would have been really nice to know who IAUN protected...

Getting an uneasy feeling from Jahudo lately. Can't quantify it just yet, though. If I had to pick someone at gunpoint though, it would be him.

@mod: I will be V/LA for the next 2 weeks (approx.) due to exams. If this is going to be a major issue please replace me.

[Moriarty147]

Except the issue with your scumteam concept is that it seems to be based primarily on the concept that lack of content = scum, automatically. While lurkers are never good, they are not necessarily guaranteed scum.

I believe I already explained my vote switch from Rishi to pops already. If not, here goes: it was one of those moments when I was pretty certain pops was scum, but then at the same time decided that he was too scummy to

be

scum at the same time as his AtEs got to me. So it was essentially just made of wavering. Plus I highly doubted that a Rishi lynch would have gone through after all.

Reading through the posts from SpyreX and Jahudo:
Need to do a quick peer through everything on D1 and D2 again, but I'm not entirely sure why Huntress had such horrible tunnel-vision on SpyreX. Spy was never at any danger of being lynched (he pretty much seemed and still seems one of the most pro-town people here), so why all the posts suspecting him and having little evidence? The only way I can see Huntress-scum is if both Huntress and SpyreX are scum, and this honestly seems unlikely at the moment.

I am not going to believe CFRiot is scum, and I'm inclined to believe BC. That leaves Spy, Jahudo, Rishi and Huntress, with a pick of 3 scum. Out of this, I'm not sure what to gather. Of these, Rishi is the only one that I actually think is scum (a lot of my suspicion went down on Jahudo with the last post)

Will post a bit more detail once at least the next 2 exams are over, on the 13th.

[Moriarty147]

First off, not hammering. Now comes the intriguing question: is Huntress scum, or do we have a scumteam of Jah, Spy and BC?

The issue I have is the sheer amount of votes active. Rishi is at L-3 and could easily be coordinated into a quickhammer by scum if CF Riot is town (as I believe) and Rishi is town (as I'm not entirely sure of). We have the whole Huntress problem, as stated above, which I'm not sure what to make of. This is all rather worrying, but at least it filters the scumteam possibilities. I guess.

I'm not sure why everyone thinks I "don't care about LYLO". It's true, I haven't been around lately, but it's the end of term and I just had the joys of writing 2 exams today, not to mention I did give V/LA notice ahead of time. In any order, I apologise for my absence.

Also wanting to ask Huntress, what do you distrust about BC's claim? I understand your tunnelling on SpyreX as being...tunnelling on SpyreX, but I'm not seeing either of your other two cases. Not to mention why you don't suspect Rishi at all, apparently.

Anyway, catching up and reading the past couple days. Will post further thoughts in a couple hours.

[Moriarty147]

EBWOP: I find Jah's stance of "hey ley's leave someone at L-1 at LYLO and see what happens when player X who hasn't voted yet comes around" slightly disturbing, as it would have resulted in a town loss if I were scum and Huntress were town.

I know this game has slowed to all but a halt, but still, this is at least slightly bizarre.

[Moriarty147]

I'm about 90% convinced that SpyreX is Town, and leaning towards a Rishi scum. Mainly would like the uncertainty about BC out of the way.

As for SpyreX, equally well we could No Lynch today, BC tells us ahead of time who he is going to jail, if there is No NK we lynch that person, otherwise they're clear and we lynch the other. Same idea, except this way it doesn't Game Over for Town if one of you or BC is, in fact, lying.

[Moriarty147]

Looking at what both of you suggested further makes me believe its Mor - that reaks of flailing knowing that, as scum, you are boned.

Reasoning?

I'm fine with being the lynch today if there are no other options, as I think your plan is still more or less fine. However, one thing that's surprising me is that if we are going to lynch someone today, howcome we aren't trying to at least do an analysis of CF Riot before voting them off?

[Moriarty147]

Yeah, I forgot about that possibility. Which is why I'm fine with being today's lynch if and only if we do some CF Riot analysis first.

Rereading right now...

[Moriarty147]

I'm not sure what the use of that post is given I already said my plan had a flaw in it and I'm fine with being the lynch so long as we do a little scumhunting first.