Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville - Game Over

[Master Ruck]

Woo! Thank you, thank you!

*crickets chirp*

...bloody crickets.

Anyway, hi. I'm kinda a newbie here but I know how the basic game works along with some roles thanks to the wiki so I'll probably make some dumb mistakes but hopefully not.

Now, to read the stuff beforehand and see if anything comes up.

[Master Ruck]

Ok, it seems I've come in just after the random voting has ended so now I have to make a reasoned decision and vote on the words or mistakes that have been said. Downside, it's still D1 and there's not really a lot to go on. It also happens to be half 3 in the morning right now so I figure the best thing to do is to go to bed and check this in the morning for anything new.

[Master Ruck]

I can FoS charter. I can also vote for him. It doesn't make much difference right now as there is no bandwagon on him. I'm not pouncing on an easy target. I'm giving him a slap on the wrist, because townies (assuming he is one) shouldn't play with WIFOM as it distracts and confuses the town.

But, isn't the point of a FoS that you only use it when you already have a vote down? As far as I knew, it served only to show that you think that person is scummy but not as scummy as the person you're voting for. If you have no vote on someone, but you find someone suspicious, vote for them!

[Master Ruck]

I like artifex or artem more as scum more than BSG right now. Lynx looks town.

Care to explain?

I like artifex or artem more as scum more than BSG right now. Lynx looks town.

Okay really quick before I go, why to all four people mentioned.

In short, Lowell, explain.

[Master Ruck]

We're confirming that we're all still here after the site down time.

[Master Ruck]

But as BSG said (and lynx directly before him who may have given him the idea) he has nothing to worry about thus no need to claim as all the votes on him are random or "let's see what happens" votes.

[Master Ruck]

Sorry. I disappeared as I now have 3 other games I'm in and trying to catch up on all of them takes quite a bit of time. I'm not gonna bother saying who I think is town, but instead who I think looks (vaguely) scum.

Charter, obviously, looks bad to me unless he comes up with a damn good explanation otherwise it will look like a lame scum tactic to cover his tracks. Though, this early in the game it would be hard to tell.

Alvinz I'm gonna hold back on until he says something as town and scum alike may have reasons to lurk.

Artem may be made to look scummish through the arguments presented against him/that he gets involved in, but it may also be scum mistakes so I'll be watching him for a bit until I feel more certain about him.

Dan

feels

like town, but he needs to stop lurking else he looks like scum.

Lastly, Darox remains an unknown as he replaced a lurker. Again, town and scum alike may have reason to lurk, so my views on him will be made based on what he says and how long it takes for him to say it.

I'm pretty much caught up on all my games now so I should be able to post a bit more often.

[Master Ruck]

I'm tempted to agree with the Artem lynching as well. His overall feel seems like he's gain everyone's attention then try and send it somewhere else. If he is scum, this may be a good way to protect scum mates as we've tended to ignore that redirection and keep focusing on him instead.

Charter definitely has entered a whole realm of WIFOM, even if he really didn't mean it, and I don't see any way he can get out of it. I had to look carefully for his reasons to vote as they were squashed into 2 lines hidden amongst a wall of quote. Again, whether it be intentional or not, Charter is doing himself no favours at all by acting in such a way.

Still, for now I will

Vote: Artem

due to his big post targetting charter, dan, and pretty much every other user then he makes one small paragraph on Lowell and votes him for that. If he was gonna do a big post like that, I would expect some more reasons or at least more explanation as to why he would make a vote as OMGUS as that.

[Master Ruck]

Nope, still referring to that post. It just seems to me that your vote was OMGUS with the way Lowell was calling you (and artifex) a scumbuddy and you try to hide that under reasons super condensed into three lines.

Dont get me wrong, Lowell's lack of decent posting does make him look scummish, but it could also be as simple as him being stupid.

[Master Ruck]

Nope, still referring to that post. It just seems to me that your vote was OMGUS with the way Lowell was calling you (and artifex) a scumbuddy and you try to hide that under reasons super condensed into three lines.

Dont get me wrong, Lowell's lack of decent posting does make him look scummish, but it could also be as simple as him being stupid.

I would still like you to show me one of my posts where I presented more (serious) reasons to vote for somebody else. Comparing my paragraph on Lowell to "all those big posts" is just a blurby reason to vote me without providing any kind of evidence.

If I could quote one of your reasons to vote someone else, then wouldn't I be voting for them? Not to mention the logical fallacy that exists when someone I think is scum asks me to agree with one of his reasons why someone else may be scum.

[Master Ruck]

*scanning Artem posts*

Your point is valid. You mentioned Charter quite a bit through the short course this game has led, but as you said it's all just WIFOM and not enough reason for a vote on him.

Unvote

Also,

Mod: Please prod Alvinz as he continues to lurk and say nothing.

Alvinz last posted Friday, and according to rule 7, he will be prodded on Tuesday if he has not posted by then

[Master Ruck]

The answer to him being "saved" is very clearly seen if you actually finished reading the

same sentence

that it turns up in.

Saved by a rule that I hate... I'm not going to complain.

Or do we need to start putting in [sarcasm] tags?

[Master Ruck]

his one was a fault on my part all led by the second reponse on the issue "denouncing" the first.

In the second comment I adressed the whole BSG thing because I felt people were giving her too much credit as a townie because of her reaction to the wagon.

I misplaced the fact that her emotions had already been displayed before I gave the earlier defense. Upon reread, I saw that her status as a rational townie under the wagon had been established already before my statement. Therefore I corrected my stance in the second comment. The second response comes from wrongly placed chronology of what happened earlier. Once I looked over it again, the proper order of the events were more clear.

Actually, I said that and it seems like you jumped on that idea to try and admit your fault to look more town. Now you're claiming it was your thought and you're trying to set it aside having reread and realised that jumping on that idea may not have been a good plan.

I do have to wonder, can you keep on the same train of thought for more than 10 seconds?

[Master Ruck]

Only the obvious one. The other I have no clue on as only he can answer it.

[Master Ruck]

He's not saying he was saved, but that Artem was saved from a lynch by the rule that xda hates, that being the unvote rule.

[Master Ruck]

Right here.

But as BSG said (and lynx directly before him who may have given him the idea) he has nothing to worry about thus no need to claim as all the votes on him are random or "let's see what happens" votes.

And you even acknowledge it in your next post.

And just for everyone's info as Master Ruck has stated, I first said BSG has nothing to worry about because most of the votes on her were random. So don't jump to the conclusion that BSG is a calm townie because I may have instilled some sense of safety in her without hearing from her first. Fault on me cause it defeats any purpose of gauging her reaction from the wagon.

But when Darox points out a flaw in your reasoning behind my thoughts

The biggest problem I have here is BSG

did

speak up before you leapt to her aid, but you seem to be eager to state that there is no point in trying to read about her reactions because you 'ruined' them. It seems like a good way to absolve your previous actions as well as turn down any inquiring looks into BSG's play.

You suddenly flip again and ignore or alter your view to make it work.

Also, with BSG, I did say first that BSG has nothing to worry about because most of the votes were random. I said this after Artem questioned why BSG wasn't focusing on the wagon on her. I said it largely because the reaction that BSG could have given had already passed. Upon rereading the incidence, BSG had already proven calm before I had stated the defense really. Despite what I earlier said about my defense nullifying her reaction, I see now that her reaction was gauged already. She proved a calm, scum hunting town. Which is what any townie should do when their is no basis for a wagon on themselves and they have nothing to defend.

Which Darox points out

Now this is pretty much a textbook turnaround. First comment on BSG, you defend her and explain her calm response. In the second comment, you denouce your actions and state her calm response was false because you muddied it with your defence. In this third comment, you go back to her being a calm townie completely unsullied by your defence and even counter your previous statement that it ruined reactions by stating 'the time for a reaction had already passed', which begs the question of why you ever issued the second comment. You've done so many 180's that I'm surprised you can still see straight. And it doesn't explain why you felt compelled to defend her in the first place.

And puts you in a corner where, in your defense, you either forget or purposely ommit the fact that you jumped on the possibility I gave and you're now trying to pass it off as a mistake you made.

his one was a fault on my part all led by the second reponse on the issue "denouncing" the first. In the second comment I adressed the whole BSG thing because I felt people were giving her too much credit as a townie because of her reaction to the wagon.I misplaced the fact that her emotions had already been displayed before I gave the earlier defense. Upon reread, I saw that her status as a rational townie under the wagon had been established already before my statement. Therefore I corrected my stance in the second comment. The second response comes from wrongly placed chronology of what happened earlier. Once I looked over it again, the proper order of the events were more clear.

That

is what I meant.

[Master Ruck]

Maybe so, but whether it means that Lynx is unsure of what his view on the situation is or that he may just be easily influenced, he needs to start making up his mind and going with that. All this switching views is making him look scummish in my eyes.

[Master Ruck]

Because as I also said, it could be that he's just easily unfluenced or confused. I'm going to wait for some kind of defense from him first and decide based on that.

[Master Ruck]

EBWOP: easily influenced

[Master Ruck]

That's believable, but it still feels somewhat convenient.

FoS: Lynx

[Master Ruck]

Damn. If Xda is telling the truth, then I was wrong in my assumption of his being 'saved'. I'll not answer questions on another's behalf again.

Also, BSG, where's that FoS coming from? Any reason you'd like to point out or you just doing it cuz you can?

[Master Ruck]

@BSG
I missed your comments on me as you summed me up as MR. Call me Ruck and I'll notice that instantly. I've said my bad on answering for xda, so onto your other points of interest.

Post 166/168, I had no intention to make it look like that, nor do I really see it as that. I thought it might be possible that he was confused, but also possible that lynx may be scum. I wanted to see his defense to decide upon, so I should have worded it differently and said simply that instead of giving lynx a possible out.

As for charter calling me scum, what reason did I have to defend it? It's not like he voted for me (or FoS for that matter) and he's right to point out the contradiction. It was a dumb move, and here that doesn't qualify as a reasonable defense, so I ignored it and tried to focus on scum hunting again.

In short, I am a really dumb town.

[Master Ruck]

I have already admitted my mistake in giving lynx possible outs so I won't comment on them any more unless people feel I should.

I didn't immediately respond my thoughts at being called scum as I thought that in itself would sound even more scummish, especially since all I would have basically said is "sorry, my bad. I'm just dumb," so I tried to focus on scum hunting again. Though, I will ask Charter a question that was asked to me. If you called me scum as you did (in caps, bold letters I might add) then why no vote or FoS of any kind? Surely suspicion warrants one of those two, or was it simply a pressure move to see what i might say in response?

[Master Ruck]

I figured I'd take the time to look at Xd's posts to see if this wagon is unfounded or not. After doing so, I don't have any reason to disagree with it. There was a large week-long gap between posts, the first after the gap saying he'll post more and the post after being the would-be lynch. Arguments have been made against him and he has either barely defended, poorly defended or not bothered to defend against by saying he has lost interest.

I'm gonna

Vote: Xdaamno

and make it

very

that this puts Xd at L-1, so nobody else vote him yet. I'll unvote if people want to feel more safe and discuss more, but as far as I can see with his lack of scum hunting and the potential hammer, discussion is essentially over and unless anyone disagrees Xda should claim.

[Master Ruck]

Oooh, damn, Artem pre-emptively called me out on the claim issue. I need to refresh the topic before I make a post else I would have seen that.

Still, as scummy as it sounds for me to say it, I don't actually have anything else to add to the Xdaamno case. Charter especially, as well as panzer, lynx and artifex now have all made quite clear what you have done and any more dodging will not make you look any better. Perhaps you should start being a bit more direct with questions asked against you. Actually, maybe we should ask you what you think of the other players now and see if you make any attempt to answer. You're at L-1 now anyway, so if you're going to be lynched it's best we at least hear who you think is scum and who's not.

[Master Ruck]

The perhaps and maybe are suggestions. Take them away and their sentences sound much more forceful, which is not something I imagine is good when you're in the delicate situation that you're in.

As for the WIFOM in my previous post, I'm not sure to what degree I should refute that as it seems OMGUSy, but I'll state a couple of points I liked against Xd that were no help for him at all.

Also,

Unvote, Vote:Xdaamno

He hastily jumped on the Artem wagon with no analysis or evidence of his own(For the hammer vote nonetheless). He's contributed nothing to the active scumhunting and given no case for any of his votes. Just shown little activity, but is still obviously here.

Good, if not brief, reasons;

I admit many of my posts have been speculation. Distancing myself from 'the main scum hunt' is something I do actively.

Self explanatory, thanks to BSG, and Lowell sums it up surprisingly well with his pbp post. I feel confidant with my post.

[Master Ruck]

EBWOP: seems OMGUSy of Xd to throw that back at me.

[Master Ruck]

Well, there's no doubt about it then. I really truly suck at this game. Maybe I should ask for a replacement so someone better redeems me and stick to some newbie games for now. Yes, this is WIFOM to the extreme, but all I can say is that everything I have done thus far is just me being stupid. If you want, you can lynch me now and get me over with. I won't complain.

[Master Ruck]

Ok, I'll stay. I'm still keeping my vote on Xda for now, at least until he expresses some opinions on other players that are scummy instead of some form of defense.

[Master Ruck]

I will do what I can to answer your questions intelligibly, Xda, but first, did you just forget to unvote or did you know that and try to rattle me further into more stupid comments?

[Master Ruck]

Ok,

Unvote: Xdaamno

for now.

More fuel to add to the "Ruck is scum" fire, I know, but the newbie game I'm in has shown me I have an agressive paranoid style whereby my votes only tend to make things worse. To counter this, I will only vote if there are also very good reasons in that post instead of having to be asked for them later only to not find them as my thoughts were only vibes. I am going to do a

detailed

reread and regardless of whether they are likely to be lynched or not, I will make a vote if I feel they are scum that needs to be lynched.

[Master Ruck]

Also, sorry for not posting in a while. Looking for a job takes up more time than you think.

[Master Ruck]

And Ruck's hopping on and off of the Xda train has definitely raised my eyebrows- I can't help but notice that the candidate you took to L-1 last time is now on his way again without you even having to cast a vote.

Purely a coincidence, my dear, I assure you.

I don't know how much water this will hold considering my current erratic, admittedly suspicious voting pattern, but I won't object to xdaamno being lynched either. He's either scum, or a townie that naturally makes himself look this bad. If the latter is the case, he's not doing much to scum hunt his way out of it.

[Master Ruck]

I'll give a player-by-player analysis later today

before I self-hammer

(so that you guys remember what I say).

Uh huh, because that is really the best thing for town right now, huh.

[Master Ruck]

I'll give a player-by-player analysis later today

before I self-hammer

(so that you guys remember what I say).

Uh huh, because that is really the best thing for town right now, huh.

I'm saying that the certainty my final words being right there and in recent memory when you guys start the next day is more valuable than the slim chance we lynch somebody else. Do you disagree?

Yes, because as far as I know a self-hammer is anti-town and not something that should be resorted to.

[Master Ruck]

And Ruck's hopping on and off of the Xda train has definitely raised my eyebrows- I can't help but notice that the candidate you took to L-1 last time is now on his way again without you even having to cast a vote.

Purely a coincidence, my dear, I assure you.

I don't know how much water this will hold considering my current erratic, admittedly suspicious voting pattern, but I won't object to xdaamno being lynched either. He's either scum, or a townie that naturally makes himself look this bad. If the latter is the case, he's not doing much to scum hunt his way out of it.

I take offense to 'look this bad'. I believe I have owned up to every single argument I have made that is not solid. I'd also like to point out the case on me is laughable, since I have nothing to lose. Your methodology should be logical, not "vibes" or "I don't get it".

You take offence? If you're town, you have 6 votes on you and a hammer soon on its way, and you don't think you look that bad?

[Master Ruck]

I'll give a player-by-player analysis later today

before I self-hammer

(so that you guys remember what I say).

Uh huh, because that is really the best thing for town right now, huh.

I'm saying that the certainty my final words being right there and in recent memory when you guys start the next day is more valuable than the slim chance we lynch somebody else. Do you disagree?

Yes, because as far as I know a self-hammer is anti-town and not something that should be resorted to.

Circular logic. A hammer is bad because it is "anti-town". Please try again and actually address my point.

Consider the point already addressed. I'm not stopping you from saying your final words, which town could use later if you flip town, but the self-hammer is what I see as bad and your lynch (if it happens today) should be made by another so we can use it later in the game as some sort of clue. If you want your final words to be remembered, then make them convincing. Nothing else is necessary.

And Ruck's hopping on and off of the Xda train has definitely raised my eyebrows- I can't help but notice that the candidate you took to L-1 last time is now on his way again without you even having to cast a vote.

Purely a coincidence, my dear, I assure you.

I don't know how much water this will hold considering my current erratic, admittedly suspicious voting pattern, but I won't object to xdaamno being lynched either. He's either scum, or a townie that naturally makes himself look this bad. If the latter is the case, he's not doing much to scum hunt his way out of it.

I take offense to 'look this bad'. I believe I have owned up to every single argument I have made that is not solid. I'd also like to point out the case on me is laughable, since I have nothing to lose. Your methodology should be logical, not "vibes" or "I don't get it".

You take offence? If you're town, you have 6 votes on you and a hammer soon on its way, and you don't think you look that bad?

Of course I look bad. However, you said I "naturally make myself look bad". Those are two entirely different things. Scum, misunderstandings, bloodthirsty towns, people have bad days and

me

having bad days are five

huge

extra factors that I'm surprised you missed.

Then those are other possibilities, but you've still done nothing to scum-hunt your way out of it.

If you want to reply, which I expect you will, can we stop this quote pyramid as they never look good.

[Master Ruck]

You say your last words will be a player-by-player analysis which, unless I'm mistaken, has been asked of you a couple of times by now so I don't think a post like that will be ignored. Still, you seem dead-set on it (excuse the pun) so if you want to do it then by all means. This bit will be ignored by you now, but isn't scum hunting going out to look for flaws in the statement of another, and defense is reinforcing your reasonings that may by chance reveal flaws in another?

Most of what you have done seems to be in defense, which now gives me the impression that you may be a townie, just an angry, prone-to-mistakes townie yet equally likely to be scum tactics. Right now, I don't know which one to believe.

[Master Ruck]

Since when did I say I'm not prone to mistakes? I

expect

myself to make mistakes partially due to me being kinda new, but mostly because I almost always make mistakes no matter what the situation I'm in. And...I just said I don't know what to think of you, which means I don't explicitly think you're scum, to which I get a "Go fuck yourself".

[Master Ruck]

I've been meaning to do that in a couple of my games. How do I filter a user's posts? I've looked around a bit but I can't figure it out.

[Master Ruck]

Xda is avoiding a lynch because attention has been moved to panzer and Xda had nothing to do with it. Threatening to hammer himself didn't matter too much as Artifex said she was willing to put the hammer down so the self hammer would, as Xda said himself, only serve to make his words the last of the day. You seem to be trying to draw attention away from panzer with that post.

[Master Ruck]

Gkkt, dammit Artem! I was gonna point out Xdaamno's contradiction! Went back to look at Xda in isolation, saw that, then saw you do it. I looked at Panzer in isolation as well to compare and I'm leaning towards Xda after that. I'm not ignoring Charter's points as I did see his reasoning, but (which is somewhat annoying to say) he just doesn't have as much as Xda to look at and find anything wrong with. He's changing a lot but he keeps his posts relatively small so I can't pick out as much.

Xda, on the other hand, I've expressed my views a couple of times with my most recent one being that I was on the fence as he could just be an angry townie. Right now, he still could be, but he's being incredibly unhelpful by being stubborn with some players (not all his fault as tubby seems to be equally as stubbron with Xd) and refusing to help unless it's his dying breath.

The approaching deadline is showing that Xdaamno will likely be lynched, and while I would prefer the chance to put Panzer in the hot seat and get him enter the discussion more, we simply don't have the time. In case we can make this fit within 24 hours, Panzer, what is your view on all of this? From what I've seen in my isolation read on you, do you have any thoughts on anyone besides Artem and Charter?

[Master Ruck]

Panzer, what is your view on all of this? From what I've seen in my isolation read on you, do you have any thoughts on anyone besides Artem and Charter?

[Master Ruck]

The aim of that question was to see what you thought of the other users instead of focusing on Charter and Artem the entire game. Unless I've missed something, and feel free to prove me wrong, those two and a bit of Xdaamno are the only people you've even mentioned.

[Master Ruck]

Xdaamno, you're the lead with votes with around 20 hours left until deadline. It's now highly unlikely that anyone else will be the lynch today, so I believe that, for the good of the town, you should let us know your views and who you think is scum so that we may use it later.

[Master Ruck]

Well then, seeing as Dan is clearly distancing, Lynx just confirmed his Xda vote, panzer is unlikely to vote for himself and Artem seems pretty set on Xda himself, you'll need the lurker Lowell and tubby. Tubby may be open to a change, but again, Lowell is a lurker so I still doubt the lynch today will end up being anyone but Xda. He needs to make some kind of contribution now before it's too late.

[Master Ruck]

Oh no, wait, maybe I am rushing things. I forgot about Afatchic who may decide upon the panzer wagon. I won't rush Xda then, but he still needs to keep in mind he may be lynched and needs to help the town if that looks to be the case.

[Master Ruck]

Gah, triple post. Xda, if you really want to vote for Artem, then it helps to unvote first.

[Master Ruck]

Uhh, why so urgent Lowell? Deadline is 3 hours away so even if no one hammers him, he'll still be lynched unless everyone decides to simultaneously jump off his wagon. On that matter, Xda, is there a reason besides your own survival that you want another extension?

[Master Ruck]

That still doesn't explain why he was desperate for a hammer vote when the deadline would kill Xda in the next "8 minutes".

[Master Ruck]

Master Ruck why no vote at a deadline? Not trying to get too much attention perhaps?

Unless I wanted to be the hammer on Xda, my vote wouldn't have made a difference close to deadline. I didn't want to hammer either as I felt Xda could still contribute more so, even though I was wrong, I didn't hammer thus giving Xda all the tim until deadline to add anything else should he feel like it. Basically, I was giving him a chance to say more.


@ Charter, question. Why do you believe you hiding behind Artem confirms him to be town? I looked up the Hider and what I understand of your reasoning is that because Artem didn't die last night, he is now town. All that tells me is that last night Artem didn't die. Had

you

died last night along with afatchic then I would believe Artem is scum seeing as what the hider

sometimes

entails is that the hider automatically dies if he hides behind scum. Right now, I'm still not seeing any confirmed anythings.

[Master Ruck]

Ok, I think I read something into Charter's claim that wasn't there. While there's still no 100% confirm for us until charter dies and turns up hider, I'm inclined to believe the claim and thus Artem's innocence.

[Master Ruck]

I'd be interested to see one of those cases myself. As far as I can tell, my mistakes have been my votes which look opportunistic, and my "I suck" post (254) which was me being frustrated at feeling useless.

[Master Ruck]

I don't see that big of a case on tubby either other than he's not posted much and it has been a little vague, but he promised to post his thoughts on people in his last post (3 days ago, admittedly, but not masses of time) so I'm gonna wait and hear what he has to say.

[Master Ruck]

Well Master Ruck just made my point. He's downplaying his own stuff cause he made huge scumtells in during the XD thing.

I'm not downplaying at all. My votes look opportunistic and nothing more than that, and that post was also nothing more than frustration at feeling useless. If there are other points you have on me (which you seem to imply with my scumtells made in discussion with Xda) then by all means say them instead of just saying they exist somewhere. Even if I am downplaying any tells, as town, you should explain them all in full anyway.

[Master Ruck]

Charter, I welcome you to hide behind me tonight and you will live to see the next day seeing as I'm town.

[Master Ruck]

The doc could step in and protect one of us then.

[Master Ruck]

In short, not gonna happen. Ok, I'll go back to scum hunting.

[Master Ruck]

The

only

way? That's being a bit narrow minded. If I have in my mind people who I think are scum, and scum #1 and #2 are lynched/confirmed town, then that makes #3 my new top suspect. I'm seeing that as the situation right now so while it wouldn't hurt to have some more evidence, it's not fair to say that should be the

only

reason why we can suspect you.

[Master Ruck]

Pretty much, Lynx, yeah. I'm not saying that the minor suspicion instantly grows into big suspicion; it still stays as a minor suspicion, but with the clearing of the other suspects it now becomes your best lead and worth pursuing to see where it goes.

[Master Ruck]

@MR- don't direct the doc! If we followed your suggestions, we'd have made it nice and easy for the scum to pick the one of us off, knowing exactly where protection was gonna be.

Still, if the doc protection isn't directed, then we pretty much rely on luck or a damn good doc to guess who is likely to be targetted. Not that it matters, as your point is valid and refutes mine, I just wanted to say this. I'm kinda realising I'm not the best townie to confirm anyhow. My posts are uncommon, useful content more-so and even then it never led to much. Though...

Why are you suggesting that the hider should not try to clear townies?

I suggested he does not use his night action because if his claim really is true, then we could be dealt a huge blow if he gets caught by the scum. We'd be down two more townies the next day.

This stood out to me as a really weak argument. Let's assume Charter's claim is true as Lynx does. He hides behind a person, there is that chance the shield is killed and charter along with it. Near end game, this is something to seriously consider as it could end the game like that with 2 townie deaths. However, this is not end game, and if he hides behind a person and survives, then that person is town through and through making one less person to waste time looking at for scum tells. Counting in all the pros, cons, and the luck factor of charter's hiding place being guessed by the scum where there's about 8 townies to choose from, I see no reason at all why Charter should not use his skill for now.

The only ones who would want him to stop are scum who are afraid of more confirmed townies narrowing down the scum choice to them...unless Lynx can come up with some other reason to say Charter shouldn't hide other than "It's too risky". In this case, high risk=high reward so that won't fly anymore.

[Master Ruck]

The odds of Charter hiding behind town only change depending on the roles that get lynched/NK. If we keep constantly mislynching, then yes, your last 2 lines can be considered true, but it is all circumstantial and not worth thinking too much about. What also has to be considered is that Charter has claimed and that's that. We can't erase it from our minds or from the thread now, so we simply have to work on a day-by-day basis and not bother wasting time by arguing over it for this long. Unless his claim is proved false, I personally think we should just believe it for now and not let it dominate our thoughts.

[Master Ruck]

It didn't really mean anything, I guess. My game as it stands now is still based on somewhat basic play so my thoughts and posts will sometimes reflect this with me saying simple, obvious things.

[Master Ruck]

Master Ruck, unless my feared, dire situation happens where Charter and another townie are both taken down in one, we will not know whether his claim is true or not. I think following the belief that the claim is true and Charter is "confirmed" town is dangerous. You have to take all these claims with a slice of skepticism. Right now I definitely believe his claim over Darox's though.

Oh yeah, of course. Every claim should always be taken with a grain of salt, but not so much that we focus too much attention on it. I agree with you as well that Darox should be of even greater concern, but if we assume the basic roles of doc and cop, along with a claimed hider and maybe another role or two (though only maybe. This is a standard game so I wouldn't expect a role-heavy game) then a PGO becomes a little bit more believable. Either way, it would help if he added some more to the active scumhunt.

*Is well aware of the hypocrism*

[Master Ruck]

Sorry for needing a prod. I am a poor judge of character and gullible to a degree as well, so I haven't been too sure on who to look at and thus I held back on posting. Too long it seems, so I'll have a look tomorrow and give my views on the current main suspects. I promise I will do this, and by giving a promise I will make sure I do it instead of just saying I will and not following through. Again, my bad on the inactivity and I'll work on fixing it.

[Master Ruck]

Ok, I'm still going to do a bigger read tomorrow (1:04 am right now) but I thought I'd start a little now and I caught this.

Assuming Xdaamo isn't scum, like I said, I'd bet money Artem is town.

Charter, I agree that you had reasons to bet money Artem was town and your hider claim is potentially proof of this if you didn't lie it. What I'm interested in is why you had to assume Xdaamno was town to bet Artem was town. Unless I've missed you making a scum pair of Xda and Artem, I don't see much of a reason to assume anything of Xda to bet money on Artem's alignment.

[Master Ruck]

Whoa whoa, wait. He came up with the claim after that due to the mounting suspicion? I find that hard to believe. Charter kept saying that he would bet his life on Artem's town-ness because he was a hider and his survival would prove it. However, he made these posts before xda's rant here and these same posts are

in

the rant. Your post reeks of you grasping for a Charter lynch, and when he's a claimed hider, there's only one reason I can think of for it.

Vote: Panzer

Vote subject to change when I do my reread later. Family stuff now, so still have to be a bit later.

[Master Ruck]

Personally I don't see why Lowell, Lynx and I are the only cases that can be made. I can see a case being made for Master Ruck or Tubby. It is scummy for limiting the town's options to just 3 lynchs and

FoS:on anyone who has done so

The only other possible lynch right now beside Lynx is you, how am I throwing my vote around? Between you and Lynx?

So by your very own logic, panzer, you should FoS yourself for your scummy actions of limiting a lynch to even less than what you originally contested against.

[Master Ruck]

The typo does nothing to alleviate my point, panzer. You complained earlier that limiting the lynch candidates was bad, yet you did just that to an even greater extent and you very poorly try to explain it away. 3 players aren't here. So what? they are still possibly scum. Artem, I will agree is about 99% confirmed, yet it could still be an elaborate bus if Charter is scum lying about being a hider, though you apparantly already know that.

And what the hell are you doing by giving up on one of your main suspects just because it's unlikely he will be lynched? If you are town and you do strongly believe charter is scum, then you keep pushing. If others try to send the argument away, contest them too as it could be scum mates helping out.

[Master Ruck]

And you think I don't? If you have the time to complain, then you have the time to refute me instead of simply avoiding the allegations.

[Master Ruck]

So, what, if you go down you're taking me down with you? Didn't you say you were gonna make a case on me? That seems like a more likely way of getting me lynched instead of this current plan.

[Master Ruck]

And that makes L-1. Anything else you want to add panzer?

[Master Ruck]

I'm all for getting Lowell to contribute more. My vote is on panzer for much the same reason as Lynx. Lowell could be scum, but his lurking simply doesn't give us as much to work with as panzer has. Regardless of panzer's scumminess, though, I'd also like to know why charter was so certain panzer wasn't a cop or anything.

[Master Ruck]

5 days until deadline. I'll go with you on this Artem, as a possibly confirmed town, but with the time left I question just how much will be accomplished with his posts being so rare. I know the votes have the intention of making him post, but my vote won't suddenly make him come online.

Unvote
Vote: Lowell

For when you next come on, Lowell, I'd like from you a summary of your thoughts on this game, but I'd like them to be as specific as possible. No being vague or diverting away from the point.

[Master Ruck]

So it's an assumption, not something that you know as you said earlier. I know this isn't much of a point, but it bugs me when people claim to be certain of something in this game when it's nothing more than speculation. Don't get me wrong, you're probably right as 2+ investigative roles would be a bit broken, but it's still something you can't actually know unless you are also the giver of roles.

[Master Ruck]

My vote is far from derailment. I still think panzer is scum and I would put my vote back on him if the need arose, but as of yet it has not. I voted for you simply to get some more information out of you and, to some extent, it has done as such. Your big PbP analysis shows you have caught up with the game and given your views on it. In order to make me believe you are town (or at least consider it more so than I am now) you need to post content like this often or actually get involved with someone else and make a case or get into an argument with them. Your lurking is doing you no good and I'm seeing it more and more as a scum tell instead of it being null.

[Master Ruck]

So anything you say is certain is nothing more than your own opinion. Right, got it.

[Master Ruck]

Just so long as you make that distinction clear, I won't harass you on it anymore.

[Master Ruck]

I will note that for the future, but it would be more helpful if I didn't have to ask as it would be clear to see on first glance.

[Master Ruck]

I want to make it clear that I am still happy with a Panzer lynch and I will revote him, heck, even hammer him, if the call goes out for it. He still looks like todays lynch anyway even with my unvote, which is exactly why I did it. There was no drastic change by taking 1 vote off panzer and I do agree with Artem that Lowell (and tubby as well as lynx said, but I picked Lowell today) needs to contribute more. Panzer has given us enough to think about on him and a few others, so rather than fixate solely on him, it felt right to get more information from another source before another day ends and hopefully give us some kind of a lead when D3 starts.

[Master Ruck]

A Charter says, he'll only consider what Artem says for obvious reasons so while what I say will not be fully considered, I think another mystery hide is a safe option for now. If Charter declares he'll hide behind someone who happens to be scum, then we know this the next day but we lose Charter. A harsh, yet partly fair tradeoff to find one more scum to lynch. However, I think it may be wise to do one more mystery hide and confirm another townie (or get really unlucky) and then do the hider tradeoff the next night.

[Master Ruck]

As others have said, Artem speaks truth. I also go for Lowell to be X just because I'm being slightly cautious with Darox and his PGO claim. If Darox is scum, then no prob as Charter hiding behind him would prove this and end all. However, if Darox is town and a PGO, then we have a problem. Charter would hide behind him, then get shot by Darox as a result. Scum know he is town, so they would let him live and when Charter shows up as a dead hider, we all instantly move to lynch Darox when it is actually a big mistake.

[Master Ruck]

And I don't think it would work like that at all. Charter (from what I understand) is unaffected by all powers when he is hiding behind someone. You, Darox, kill anyone who tries to target you. Your kill goes through before Charter's immunity kicks in...is what I imagine anyway.

[Master Ruck]

I'm going to wait for dan to say something before I think of putting him at L-1.

Lowell, admitting that your vote is shameless bandwaggoning doesn't make it any less scummy. As for lynx, why not answer your own question. Have a look back and think why scum (or other NK power) would want to kill him. It might help to fill your content quota.

[Master Ruck]

Or, you know, I could be beaten to the punch by tubby who claims vig.

[Master Ruck]

Yeah, welcome to the game Freeko. When you can, tell us what you think of the currently living players and if you think dan is a good lynch to pursue.

[Master Ruck]

Maybe he is and maybe he isn't. It would still be nice to know why he didn't think to target anyone like dan or you. Hell, I think even Darox would have been a fair vig even if his PGO claim IS true.

[Master Ruck]

Maybe he is and maybe he isn't. It would still be nice to know why he didn't think to target anyone like dan or you. Hell, I think even Darox would have been a fair vig even if his PGO claim IS true.

^^^ this is scummy.

Being a vig is retarded. Saying a vig should have done something else is even more retarded.

That's an equivocating statement you made.

I am not saying he

should

have killed any other person. I'm simply asking why he did not think to kill any of the others I mentioned. You are putting a spin on my words and that is scummy.

[Master Ruck]

You fishing for any reason in particular Darox? If the townie starts to look like the lynch, then I'm sure Charter will say something to protect them, but otherwise revealing that information just makes them tonight's scum kill.

[Master Ruck]

Dan, can you instead answer Charter and defend yourself? Avoiding it isn't making yourself look much better and my waiting for your defense is also the only thing making me not vote you right now.

[Master Ruck]

Freeko, you're suddenly being very aggresive towards a dead player that happens to be scum, not to mention how quickly you want to get rid of it completely. Sure, you've been named as a scum mate which can't be good if you're town, but I think you're going a bit too far to be repeatedly calling panzer a dumbass like that and the claims are still information which shouldn't be dismissed so soon.

[Master Ruck]

Yes, I would act differently. I would...actually, yeah, do just what Lowell did. Ignore it completely and go back to scum hunting. By acting as overly defensive as you are now would only serve to make the claim more true and single me out as scum.

Charter, top 2 suspicions. I'm probably going to agree with you with Freeko and Dan, but I'm also gonna be keeping an eye on Darox as I'm still keeping that PGO claim in mind and the only thing he's said all day is to ask you who you hid behind.

Vote: Darox

to get him talking.

[Master Ruck]

A mass claim may help us out with more information and scum not as much if all our power roles have already been revealed, but I think it may still be perhaps a day too early for it. I'm basing this just on a feeling so I could be convinced to go along with it, but at the very least we need to hear from everyone else here that's said little today.

[Master Ruck]

Well, there's 7 still alive and 3 of us have claimed already. Of the four that are left, 2 are likely to be lying if none of the already claimed are scum. 4 dead and confirmed town vanillas as well, so it's possible we're running out of them leaving another power role or two left to claim. At this stage, it may be a good idea as the information gained may leave enough clues to lead to the remaining scum.

[Master Ruck]

I'm happy to claim now, but I see the consencus is to wait for freeko to claim targets so I shall wait unless it changes and I am asked by all to claim before that.

[Master Ruck]

Doesn't really matter when I claim. I'm a town vanilla, so I wouldn't have affected the results of the watcher anyway.

[Master Ruck]

Freeko, you're confusing watcher with tracker. If you watched lowell last night and nothing happened, that means nobody targetted Lowell not that he targetted no one.

[Master Ruck]

Not much I can say about that except that's quite a fundamental error.

[Master Ruck]

Wow. Thank you dan. Thanks to your great insight I suddenly see the light. Though, for the benefit of the non-believers, perhaps you should explain to them why we should do such an act.

[Master Ruck]

Freeko, you basically end your post by saying "these are all my thoughts, but of course, I could be completely wrong" giving yourself a wonderous out as well as making it look like you are posting some kind of content, which is actually what all your posts seem to look like to me. Your posts have been very short with little scum hunting at all which combined with Artifex's behaviour (posted some content but rarely posted) makes you look like scum.

Unvote
Vote: Freeko

[Master Ruck]

Let's get rid of the wifom then. Yes, the pot is calling the kettle black. I'm being a hypocrit as I'm not posting much content myself, but my lame excuse is that I'm still a bit new, not that good at scum hunting and I'm trying and learning to be better. It does not, however, excuse the act from being scummy so anyone else is equally viable to use the same excuse on me and I won't contest it.

If it were contested, however, then I would think even worse of the person. In fact, you've done exactly what I thought you would do. Be defensive of your views (though no as overly defensive as I thought you would be) then turn on the spot and point your finger at me. Heck, the only reason you didn't vote me is because that would be so omgus it wouldn't even be funny, but that unvote is close enough to say the same thing. Why did you unvote then and not earlier? Why do my actions suddenly absolve Darox? Could it be because there's suddenly less of a chance of a wagon forming on him? or is it because if he is lynched and flips town you don't want to look like one of the sole primary pushers of his lynch?

[Master Ruck]

I can only take you on your word for 1 which is not much at all in this game. Question 2 is only in part answered if I believe the answer to 1. If 1 is bull, which I think it is, then 2 remains unanswered. 3 you have missed the point completely. It's four to lynch now, and someone with two votes has a much better chance of being lynched than someone with only one vote. With two people who haven't yet voted, one of which being dan who would obviously not want to be lynched being at L-1, any other possible lynch will save him and his scum partner will do what they can to try and provide.

I would also like to remind you that my vote on Darox was made for the sole purpose of getting him talking. I said this very clearly right next to my vote on him, so this clearly shows you have made no effort to go back and check, instead trying to turn the argument around on me with no apparant knowledge it would fail.

As for 4, I see that vote of yours as a way of hiding thanks to your own argument. You vote Darox as he put dan at L-1 and is an ideal place for scum to hide. You made sure your vote was only L-2 so if he is lynched then you weren't in the same scummy position. My vote, as said already, was just to get him talking so for today at least you would have been seen as the initial mover of his wagon if it built up. You can't lynch him by yourself, no, but you can help it along then step back from the brawling dust cloud that would ensue. That is, only if you nudged it forward instead of starting it.

[Master Ruck]

If you're now saying you voted for him because you were suspicious of darox for the PGO claim, then why did you not mention it here and instead give a completely different reason?

I think you slipped up there in your last post.

Random scumvote to be the 3rd on the wagon so you avoid suspicion? You didnt start it, didnt hammer it, but might as well hop aboard anyway? By not actually pointing out the slip it seems like you are hiding something, at least to me. Especially since it puts him at L-1 now I believe.

vote darox

I think im a bit early with this vote, but I think its placed properly. At least answer for me (and charter as well i suppose) what the slip actually was, and I will at the least remove this vote from you.

[Master Ruck]

Freeko, answer my question, not another imaginary one. If that was also one of your reasons, then why didn't you say it then? Right now you're just tagging it on to make your case look bigger and not too simple.

Dan, fair enough. Lowell claims to have already answered that which you contest. I'll believe you on that, Dan, unless Lowell can quote posts from the past that show him covering those points already.

[Master Ruck]

Wait, before someone does that, Charter, do you want to reveal who you hid behind last night? Maybe we should set up another pre-declared hide behind if today's lynchee turns up town.

[Master Ruck]

Thing is, dan, almost everything you've said has given even more scummy implications. I agree that Lowell may not have addressed that big post of yours since you made it, but it doesn't absolve you of all your own actions which you seem to ignore or deflect and then look at someone else to point the finger at.

I'll hammer, but I'll leave it a little bit to let people give a final word or something. Say, about 12 hours after this post.

[Master Ruck]

I didn't hammer back then because Charter unvoted and it wouldn't have been a hammer anymore. I figure Charter may have had a reason to unvote so I left it a little to see what happened, but also, I forgot. Life and a few other games came up first so when the 12 hours came and went, I simply just forgot at the time. However, I was ready then and I'm still ready now so if I'm making a big mistake, then sorry town, but

Vote: Dan.

Charter, just in case this is wrong, maybe you should hide behind Lowell in the off chance he is scum.

[Master Ruck]

Actually, yeah. I had in my mind that Freeko is obvscum, which is silly of me to make such an assumption. If dan flips town, hide behind Freeko...or, considering that whenever I think of something in a situation like this I end up being wrong or doing something stupid, how's about Charter plays it safe regardless and he chooses who to hide behind.

[Master Ruck]

Oh yeah, totally forgot about that. Before I hammer, which I still will, Darox, you kill those who target you, right? If scum aim to kill you instead, do you negate that and kill them first? That's (in part) an elite bodyguard so I don't think a PGO works in the same way. I ask this because if you don't kill your killer before he kills you, then scum can easily shoot you and take Charter down with you, then with you dead you're not alive to kill your killer back.

[Master Ruck]

Alright Charter, fair enough. I also asked because I've

never

seen a PGO in a game so I don't know all the details about it. Interesting theory, though. If the game does happen to end with the hider, PGO and last scum before the final night, would the game end in a draw with the scum's kill? Kill's PGO, hider goes with him, but PGO kills scum back. Everyone is dead. That might be fun to see.

Anyway, to the point.

Unvote
Vote: Dan

[Master Ruck]

Vanillas tend to not have any night actions. I would say scum would easily know I was telling the truth about my claim, but at this point all it would do is perhaps make me look more town by showing I made no kill. I'm suddenly not so sure what to think of freeko now.

[Master Ruck]

Maybe they figured out he was using his fake claim as a ruse to not be targetted. I think you hiding behind him was the tipoff as you should have been killed when attempting to hide behind him. As far as I can tell, your power immunity only works when you successfully hide behind someone and a PGO should kill anyone who attempts to target him.

[Master Ruck]

The thought process is sound, yes, I was just affirming that I have no night action because I'm a vanilla. You could be right about Lowell too, but sadly it's still just theory and nothing concrete. Should Charter say who he confirmed so that townie can narrow down our search? I can see pros and cons to this so I'm not sure if we should.

[Master Ruck]

I'd say town as well.

[Master Ruck]

I'm staying put.

[Master Ruck]

no you are talking yourself out of it,, we lynch lowell first,

it makes sense, no granted panzer did out him as scum but to me it would makes sense that panzer would out just one of his partners and point a finger at a townie hoping we would lynch the townie first there by proving lowell's innocence, so i say yah lynch lowell

vote: lowell

While you have a point there, tub, I think you're also forgetting that panzer claimed Artifex (now Freeko) as a scum mate as well. That logic applies as much to Lowell as it does to Freeko.

I think lynching me is as absurd as lynching MR at this point.

As

absurd? No, I don't see that. Lynching me before you is absurd thanks to your tracker claim and result, but it's still just a claim which could still be a lie.

I would like to point out that this is the second Tracker claim in this game, the first being Panzer on the day of his lynching. Whether it be genuine or convenience, Artifex was nowhere to be seen to counterclaim and that inactivity eventually resulted in his replacement. This has me inclined to believe that his inactivity was genuine, but if Freeko is scum, then scum would know that as there was no counterclaim to the role making it free to fake later in the game and make them look more useful, thus prolonging their life.

This next point is quite weak and I don't want to rest too heavily on it, but I'm out-guessing the setup a bit here and saying that if Freeko is scum, then it looks to be a fairly balanced game if all other claims are to be believed. 6 vanillas, 3 scum and 3 town power roles. If I'm wrong and Lowell is the last scum, then we have 5 vanillas, 3 scum and 4 power roles.

My last observation for now was also during the end of panzer. Look back at the votals and you'll see that Dan and Artifex never voted. Dan we know now is scum, so I'm thinking it may have been the plan to have all scum not vote if possible and allow town to lynch themselves. Then, the following day the lynch could be examined and another mislynch may have occured as a result. Even if this is not the case, scum may have just not wanted to tie themselves down with a vote and be noticed or enter conversation.

I'm still keeping myself open to the possibility of lowell being scum, but I'm not willing to let go of Freeko yet either and I'm currently wavering between the two as to who I would want to vote for.

[Master Ruck]

freeko, I'm not buying tubby as a SK. He claimed D3 as a one-shot vig. If he was a SK then there should only be, at most, one death per night from then on. If he claimed a one-shot vig then 2 deaths occured the next night, all his credibility goes down the drain and he'd pretty much be lynched immediately. Saying he's less than a one-shot is a massive risk for a SK as it only takes one more unblocked death to out him.

Charter, did I not make it clear that I thought the scum was between freeko and lowell? I'm trying to establish which one we should lynch as I don't think you realise just how important it is that we get this right first time. If we mislynch, there's 3:1 town:scum. In normal circumstances, no big deal as even with the scum kill there's enough town to make another day come.

However

you still have to hide behind someone, charter, and this time the scum have a 50:50 chance of killing the person you're behind and kill 2 people in one shot. This would actually end the game so I'd rather not just rush into a mislynch as tomorrow is not a guarantee.

[Master Ruck]

Result. Having another day makes me feel better about this now so I'd be happy to hammer Lowell, though I'll leave it a little so others can say their bit.

[Master Ruck]

Lowell's attitude is only serving to make me think he is the last scum more and more. by the looks of it town has a guaranteed victory regardless of how lowell flips, but I think the game ends here.

Vote: Lowell

Now let's see if charter still has a mafia career after this.

[Master Ruck]

Glad I got into this game. I really enjoyed it. Somewhat miffed I didn't survive until endgame as I felt I was so close, but ah well. Crumbling cookies and all that. Still, I find it funny that Charter no longer has a mafia career after mis-guessing Lowell as scum.

The main reason I came to this site was actually the prospect of modding instead of actually playing. I'm coming up to three months now so I should be able to mod, or /in to be mod at least, and I think this game has shown how you can have an effective standard game without all the expected standard roles. When (or if. Losing interest in mafia) I mod a game, I will remember this one as an example of a job well done.

Oh yeah, and way to go Charter!