Mini 745 - Moving Day Mafia (GAME OVER!)

[ac1983fan]

Alright, I confirm.
Now, I intend to post at least the minumum, but my aunt will probably be passing away sometime this week, so towards the end of the week I will probably be away. However, I will do my best to be active.
With that being said,

vote: Jazzmyn

for being first to confirm

I understand, take whatever time you need

[ac1983fan]

Wagons are the path to victory for scum. Especially when you're on that wagon just because you can be.

Interesting statement, this. Kindly explain.

Oh, and:

unvote, vote: dejkha

unvote

FOS: Plonky

I have no issue with him asking to explain himself, but voting him? I know we're still early on, but you unvoted just to vote for him on one thing he said in response to what I would consider pretty scummy behavior, regardless of when it happens.


Also, I will likely become completely unvailable for several days starting thursday or friday. Granted I already had limited access due to laptop troubles, and I already warned of my possible inactivity, but I figured I'd be more specific as to when now that I have more information about the situation.

[ac1983fan]

Unvote
Vote: ZEEnon

Four way ties suck. Wagons are the path to victory!

Wagons are the path to victory for scum. Especially when you're on that wagon just because you can be.

Unvote

Vote: Erratus

How exactly is an L-4 random vote the path to victory for scum? If I'm scum and ZEEnon is town, I would need to convince four players to vote for him,

without evidence against him

, to get a mislynch. Some path to victory that is.

Scum already know who town is and it's not uncommon for them to just get on a bandwagon. They just want town to lynch themselves, so hopping on a bandwagon because "[they] are the path to victory" is a little scummy.

Okay then. Where on earth did you get the idea that I know who town is?

Wagons are the path to victory for scum. Especially when you're on that wagon just because you can be.

Interesting statement, this. Kindly explain.

Oh, and:

unvote, vote: dejkha

unvote

FOS: Plonky

I have no issue with him asking to explain himself, but voting him? I know we're still early on, but you unvoted just to vote for him on one thing he said in response to what I would consider pretty scummy behavior, regardless of when it happens.

This is a scummy post. AC says he agrees with dejkha that my behavior is scummy. So what does he do about it? Vote me, FOS me, or even question me? No, he does nothing about it. Sounds like not what a townie does when he sees suspicious behavior.

Instead, AC attacks Plonky for voting dejkha. It's a pretty nonsensical attack - he acts like voting for someone on flimsy evidence on page 2 is out of the ordinary. Moreover, the phrase "...you unvoted just to vote for him..." implies that he thinks a townie wouldn't abandon his random vote. Or at least that's the closest interpretation I could get out of this, he doesn't really explain at all why he thinks Plonky's vote is scummy. He looks more interested in defending dejkha than attacking Plonky.

i don't think i have to explain myself

You couldn't possibly be more wrong.

Serious voting time

Unvote
Vote: ac1983fan

I wasn't defending anyone, I was simply stating that I thought plonky's question was foolish. He took one bit of evidence, and decided to make a vote on it. I know it's only page 3, but it's still bad form. And I figured that dehjka had already covered why you were suspicious, but I wasn't about to vote for you over one thing, because that's exactly the thing which plonky did that I was FOSing him for. But to clarify, I found the fact that you saw that there were several people with two votes, and the unvoted to vote for somebody who already had several votes on him, while saying wagon's are the path to victory. I think dehjka was jumping the gun on voting for you, zeenon's vote is clearly OMGUS, however, please explain your reasoning, if any, for changing your vote the way you did.

Also,

By the way mod, I unvoted back on page two...

But I'll

unvote

again.[/b]

What are you talking about? I so updated that

[ac1983fan]

I wasn't defending anyone, I was simply stating that I thought plonky's question was foolish. He took one bit of evidence, and decided to make a vote on it. I know it's only page 3, but it's still bad form. And I figured that dehjka had already covered why you were suspicious, but I wasn't about to vote for you over one thing, because that's exactly the thing which plonky did that I was FOSing him for. But to clarify, I found the fact that you saw that there were several people with two votes, and the unvoted to vote for somebody who already had several votes on him, while saying wagon's are the path to victory. I think dehjka was jumping the gun on voting for you, zeenon's vote is clearly OMGUS, however, please explain your reasoning, if any, for changing your vote the way you did.

Also,

By the way mod, I unvoted back on page two...

But I'll

unvote

again.[/b]

Why do you hate early voting? Do you think all early votes are scummy, or just Plonky's? Why is Plonky's question foolish?

Why I switched to ZEEnon is simple. Spreading out the random votes evenly is the fastest method of killing a game there is. If nobody stands out, there's nothing for the town to jump off of. Everyone just sits around doing nothing, waiting for someone else to do something scummy. BOOOORING. On the other hand, randomly wagoning someone is always an excellent way to start the real discussion. I've never seen it fail. Hence, when the vote was a four-way tie, I broke it up and put one player in the spotlight.

I think that early voting with one piece of evidence (which, I might add, was particularly flawed) is particularly scummy. He was voting someone for questioning a scummy act. That's silly.

[ac1983fan]

I wasn't defending anyone, I was simply stating that I thought plonky's question was foolish. He took one bit of evidence, and decided to make a vote on it. I know it's only page 3, but it's still bad form.

And I figured that dehjka had already covered why you were suspicious, but I wasn't about to vote for you over one thing, because that's exactly the thing which plonky did that I was FOSing him for. But to clarify, I found the fact that you saw that there were several people with two votes, and the unvoted to vote for somebody who already had several votes on him, while saying wagon's are the path to victory. I think dehjka was jumping the gun on voting for you, zeenon's vote is clearly OMGUS, however, please explain your reasoning, if any, for changing your vote the way you did.

Also,

By the way mod, I unvoted back on page two...

But I'll

unvote

again.[/b]

The underlined bit. It's bollocks. The rest isn't particularly good either.

One bit of evidence >> No bits of evidence

EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

Or was he supposed to just sit around and wait for more.

That doesn't mean that it's alright to vote because of something silly like that. Why vote for someone who was questioning a scummy act...

[ac1983fan]

I wasn't defending anyone, I was simply stating that I thought plonky's question was foolish. He took one bit of evidence, and decided to make a vote on it. I know it's only page 3, but it's still bad form.

I don't think it's bad form at all. I had one bit of evidence against dejkha. I had no evidence against my random vote. For me, one bit of evidence is enough to swap votes on page 2.

I really don't understand what you find suspicious about that.

You voted someone who was questioning a scummy act. And that was all the reason you had to vote for him. Don't always rush to vote, a quick day one will almost always lead to a town loss.

[ac1983fan]

I wasn't defending anyone, I was simply stating that I thought plonky's question was foolish. He took one bit of evidence, and decided to make a vote on it. I know it's only page 3, but it's still bad form. And I figured that dehjka had already covered why you were suspicious, but I wasn't about to vote for you over one thing, because that's exactly the thing which plonky did that I was FOSing him for. But to clarify, I found the fact that you saw that there were several people with two votes, and the unvoted to vote for somebody who already had several votes on him, while saying wagon's are the path to victory. I think dehjka was jumping the gun on voting for you, zeenon's vote is clearly OMGUS, however, please explain your reasoning, if any, for changing your vote the way you did.

It looks like you are confusing Erratus Apathos with Plonky. EA was the one who placed the third vote (on Zeenon,) and Plonky was the one who asked dejkah about the response.

Besides what Erratus Apathos said in post 51 and Plonky said in post 55, I can't understand ac1983fan's decision to use a FoS instead of a vote. Plonky had no votes at the time, but acfan is unwilling to place the first (L-6) vote? There may also be significance to his unvoting right before FoSing, but I don't know what it is.

At this point, though, Zeenon is more interesting to me. Two OMGUS votes against random votes? And calling something obvious that isn't?

Vote: Zeenon

FoS: acfan

@killer seven: You're right, you didn't claim to be certain. But the request for more detail stands.

Nope, I was responding to EA's staatements towards me. I was FOSing plonky in regards to his response to dehjka's response to EA.

The reason why I didn't vote is because I don't think there is enough evidence to make a real vote yet. I unvoted because my vote on page 1 was, like all others, a joke vote. It was page 2. It is no longer the time for joke votes by page 2.

[ac1983fan]

That doesn't mean that it's alright to vote because of something silly like that. Why vote for someone who was questioning a scummy act...

If you don't believe EA's act was scummy then its a perfectly good reason.

I guess, but I assumed it was universally scummy to vote like that.
Guess I should remember what they say about assuming:
it makes an

ass

out of

u

and

me

.

[ac1983fan]

Put it like this:

To be scummy an action has to be intentionally beneficial to the scum. Were that the case EA would have had to be voting someone to L-4 with in the hope that that led to a quick-myslynch on the second (or soon thereafter) page of the game. - Not likely to happen.

To be townie his action would be with the intent of helping the town. Applying this to EA's bandwagon vote he would be trying to spark off some meaningful discussion amongst the town. Even if this discussion is about that very vote its still a positive move from random voting.

All in all, since EA's vote was the catalyst in moving toward constructive town play and, so far as I can tell, was always intended that way, I think it was a more townie act than scummy.

I can understand that point of view. However, I have seen at least one game where a lynch occured on the first page due to people bandwagoning, so it does happen. I don't really think EA is particularly scummy or townie, but I still think changing your vote too much during the early stage isn't really a good idea for the town. But, I digress...

I wasn't defending anyone, I was simply stating that I thought plonky's question was foolish. He took one bit of evidence, and decided to make a vote on it. I know it's only page 3, but it's still bad form. And I figured that dehjka had already covered why you were suspicious, but I wasn't about to vote for you over one thing, because that's exactly the thing which plonky did that I was FOSing him for. But to clarify, I found the fact that you saw that there were several people with two votes, and the unvoted to vote for somebody who already had several votes on him, while saying wagon's are the path to victory. I think dehjka was jumping the gun on voting for you, zeenon's vote is clearly OMGUS, however, please explain your reasoning, if any, for changing your vote the way you did.

It looks like you are confusing Erratus Apathos with Plonky. EA was the one who placed the third vote (on Zeenon,) and Plonky was the one who asked dejkah about the response.

Besides what Erratus Apathos said in post 51 and Plonky said in post 55, I can't understand ac1983fan's decision to use a FoS instead of a vote. Plonky had no votes at the time, but acfan is unwilling to place the first (L-6) vote? There may also be significance to his unvoting right before FoSing, but I don't know what it is.

At this point, though, Zeenon is more interesting to me. Two OMGUS votes against random votes? And calling something obvious that isn't?

Vote: Zeenon

FoS: acfan

@killer seven: You're right, you didn't claim to be certain. But the request for more detail stands.

Nope, I was responding to EA's staatements towards me. I was FOSing plonky in regards to his response to dehjka's response to EA.

The reason why I didn't vote is because I don't think there is enough evidence to make a real vote yet. I unvoted because my vote on page 1 was, like all others, a joke vote. It was page 2. It is no longer the time for joke votes by page 2.

Nevermind that post, you're right, I'm wrong. I was thinking of plonky. I was confusing them... I really need to think things through a little more what I post...

[ac1983fan]

^woah, I screwed up the quotes in that post; the quote box encompassing the entire end of my post should not be there...

Fixed

[ac1983fan]

haha i'm actually not sure,
i think everytime i write a post
there is an immaginary line
that i decide i can't cross .

Okay, that's just plain weird.

Unvote. Vote: ZEEnon.

Regards,
Jazz

major fos:jazzmyn

That's a majorly silly reason to be voting for someone... if you have other reasons, please do tell, but if this is only reason, than you're not being very helpful to the town.

[ac1983fan]

Just posting to say that my aunt passed away today, and the funeral's on monday, so I'll be unavailable from sunday evening until tuesday.

I am sorry for your loss but thank you for letting us know. I will withhold from prodding you for as long as I can.

[ac1983fan]

vote: jazzmyn

You contribute almost nothing to the discussion, and then make a vote for a silly reason, and no acknowlegement of what is really going on, claiming that you think we are still in the joke vote stage, where anyone who had actually read the thread would know that was not true. This was my initial assesment, which you proved with your response to my & q21's questions... There are much better reasons to be voting for zeenon other than his unorthodox posting style.

[ac1983fan]

You contribute almost nothing to the discussion, and then make a vote for a silly reason, and no acknowlegement of what is really going on, claiming that you think we are still in the joke vote stage, where anyone who had actually read the thread would know that was not true. This was my initial assesment, which you proved with your response to my & q21's questions... There are much better reasons to be voting for zeenon other than his unorthodox posting style.

See above. It was a random vote for a nonsensical reason (which is what I thought would make it apparent that it was a random vote). Meta me, if you like, and you will see that I don't cast serious votes without setting out my reasons.

Yes, I understood that it was somewhat random, but we're clearly past that point in the game.

[ac1983fan]

While reading through this post, from ac1983fan caught my attention.

Wagons are the path to victory for scum. Especially when you're on that wagon just because you can be.

Interesting statement, this. Kindly explain.

Oh, and:

unvote, vote: dejkha

unvote

FOS: Plonky

I have no issue with him asking to explain himself, but voting him? I know we're still early on, but you unvoted just to vote for him on one thing he said in response to what I would consider pretty scummy behavior, regardless of when it happens.

It gives me the feeling that ac1983fan is scum with EA or plonky - and it is just a feeling for now. He only FoSs plonky and although he decries EA's action as scummy (least that seems to be what he was talking about) he never actually questions, FoSs or votes EA.

Either he's targeting plonky and ignoring EA because he doesn't want to implicate his scum buddy. Would explain EA pointing this out later as that kind of thing could be uncomfortable if one of them flips scum later. Granted EAtown also has reason to do this, and I have no other reason to suspect him at all.

The other option is that he's targeting Plonky because he knows he's scum and leaving EA alone because he knows EA's town. Bussing Plonky, in other words.

The fact that he uses an FoS instead of a vote indicates extreme care to not contradict himself (most people would have voted Plonky at this point and be done with it) and possibly an unwillingness to vote for his scumbuddy.

In the end my I don't get any conclusion on EA and Plonky from this post, but it certainly makes me suspicious of acfan.

Unvote, Vote ac1983fan

Because personally I have no qualms throwing my vote where I think it best belongs.

You are as far off as possible with this post. I am not plonky's scumbuddy, and I have no clue as to who is town and who is not... I haven't played mafia in a long time, but I know that jumping to vote people quickly has won me games as scum and lost me games as town, so I'm trying to play carefully in terms of voting. In fact, I won my first game as scum because of basically quickly voting to lynch people. You're drawing too many assumptions from one post, I think.

[ac1983fan]

unvote

Jazzmyn, after rereading your latest post, you obviously have real reasons to be suspicious of ZEEnon; why you didn't post them as a response to my original question, I don't know...

Also, q21, are you just going to vote everyone and keep your vote on them until either they make themselves seem less scummy or somebody else does something more scummy? cause you've pretty much voted for everybody who's been posting regularly in this game...

[ac1983fan]

You are as far off as possible with this post. I am not plonky's scumbuddy, and I have no clue as to who is town and who is not... I haven't played mafia in a long time, but I know that jumping to vote people quickly has won me games as scum and lost me games as town, so I'm trying to play carefully in terms of voting. In fact, I won my first game as scum because of basically quickly voting to lynch people. You're drawing too many assumptions from one post, I think.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WIFOM defense.

How so?

[ac1983fan]

You are as far off as possible with this post. I am not plonky's scumbuddy, and I have no clue as to who is town and who is not...

I haven't played mafia in a long time, but I know that jumping to vote people quickly has won me games as scum and lost me games as town, so I'm trying to play carefully in terms of voting.

In fact, I won my first game as scum because of basically quickly voting to lynch people. You're drawing too many assumptions from one post, I think.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WIFOM defense.

How so?

its textbook. "i am not plonky's scumbuddy" is a meaningless statement. statements such as that are a waste of space. how you would or would not act

if

you were mafia

is

wifom. don't get me wrong, the "i want to be careful with my vote" is a reasonable pont to make, but venturing into "if i were scum" territory is unproductive. and that appears(to me) what you have done here.

That wasn't my intention.

[ac1983fan]

Alright, I've quickly read through everybody's posts in the thread so far. Nobody really seems too suspicious to me. I guess I'll hold off on voting until I get back on tuesday.

[ac1983fan]

First off, I have surprise internet access tonight... So I guess I'll probably vote by the end of the post.

Alright, I've quickly read through everybody's posts in the thread so far. Nobody really seems too suspicious to me. I guess I'll hold off on voting until I get back on tuesday.

vote: ac1983fan

if you can't find scum its because you are. try harder.

A: You were already voting for me...
B: Excuse me for saying that I didn't feel comfortable voting. Never mind that one of my aunts just died, my other aunt just had a surprise baby, and my grandmother is in the hospital due to a stroke so I have other things on my mind than trying to decide who to vote for in a mafia game. Never mind that I haven't played mafia in over a year. Never mind that half of the times I've been posting in this game, I really wasn't supposed to be, because my mother is incredibly strict with computer use. Never mind that I've already stated my reasons for not wanting to vote without enough evidence. So basically, according to you, choosing to wait to vote makes me automatically scum? Screw you.

unvote

Jazzmyn, after rereading your latest post, you obviously have real reasons to be suspicious of ZEEnon; why you didn't post them as a response to my original question, I don't know...

Also, q21, are you just going to vote everyone and keep your vote on them until either they make themselves seem less scummy or somebody else does something more scummy? cause you've pretty much voted for everybody who's been posting regularly in this game...

Yes, I do plan to move my vote depending on who seems scummy, this is a bad thing how? As the game progresses the frequency with which I change votes should decrease, but for now everything new and shiny gets my attention.

Also, don't exaggerate, I haven't "voted for everybody who's been posting regularly in this game...". I've voted EA and Torvarish - both random votes neither accompanied by any suspicion, Jazzmyn - hardly a regular poster, especially not at the time of my vote and you.

In short - don't accuse me of things I haven't done.

Really? i thought you had changed votes more. My bad. Also, I never said it was a bad thing, I was just wondering, cause I've seen other players who use that playstyle.

Forgive ac for not voting at every random trun of events. I can't blame him for not finding scum, I'm having a hard time too. A lot of the earlier part of the game seems to be more of a debate about theory rather than actual scumhunting- or maybe all this is just going over my head- btu your post makes very little sense, and is trying to reinforce a serious logical fallacy.

The scum can always find scum, they know who they are

FOS- Don Johnson

.

depends on how you look at it. sure they know who they are, but in order to win they need to find convenient excuses not to find each other. you are having a hard time, yet you FoS me. my point is that in the entire thread, ac1983fan finds nobody suspicious. nobody. you buy that?

I've found people suspicious, however, I either a. don't have enough evidence to feel comfortable voting for them, or b. Feel my suspicious have already basically been addressed in other posts. Also, please note the wording of my post was

too

suspicious. too can be a synonym for extremely, or excessively, etc. I didn't think anybody was suspicious enough for a vote.

dejkha: good point, but it does not alleviate my suspicion of ac, and so my vote will stay for now.

vote: jazzmyn

You contribute almost nothing to the discussion, and then make a vote for a silly reason, and no acknowlegement of what is really going on, claiming that you think we are still in the joke vote stage, where anyone who had actually read the thread would know that was not true. This was my initial assesment, which you proved with your response to my & q21's questions... There are much better reasons to be voting for zeenon other than his unorthodox posting style.

there is much wrong with the above quote. first, ac had been, until this time a big proponent for "careful" voting.(i am paraphrasing here). they seemed to be preaching that votes should be well reasoned. however, two posts after FoSing jazz they vote, pretty contradictory to what they initially touted(in my eyes). my vote on them is not solely based on their inability to find others "too suspicious" but more based on their general behavior. i agree that votes should not be cast willy-nilly, but voting is a necessary cog in the wheels of this game. note also, that ac states that there are "much better" reasons to be voting zeenon, but is not voting zeenon, nor explaining this statement at all.

Jazzmyn was, at that point, the most suspicious person to me. She had not posted since page one, and came back with a joke vote. I gave her a chance to explain herself. She said it was a joke vote. I voted her. She then stated who she found suspicious and why. Amoung those she found suspicious was zeenon. She had valid reasons to be suspicious of zee, so I unvoted my vote on her.
The reasons to be suspicious of zee are because mostly of his OMGUS vote for EA where he claimed that he didn't need to provide reasons for his vote.

Don, you've contributed very little in the game, and then you come back into the game with a completely ridiculous accusation, that anyone who cannot find scum is scum. You want me to vote for who I find suspicious? fine.

vote: don_johnson

[ac1983fan]

Don, you've contributed very little in the game, and then you come back into the game with a completely ridiculous accusation, that anyone who cannot find scum is scum.

You want me to vote for who I find suspicious?

fine.

again, i never called you out for not voting. we differ in opinion on my contributions. your vote seems more omgus than anything else. sorry about your aunt, but you are making a sweeping generalization of a statement i directed to you in order to "motivate" you. notice the "try harder" on the end of my initial vote. anyways.

She had valid reasons to be suspicious of zee, so I unvoted my vote on her.
The reasons to be suspicious of zee are because mostly of his OMGUS vote for EA where he claimed that he didn't need to provide reasons for his vote.

i am confused by this. you said there were reasons to VOTE zeenon. you are the one making a distinction between votes and suspicions in order to defend yourself. now they become conveniently interchangeable?

What are you saying? I can't even understand this... suspicious are better reasons to vote Zee than random votes... I really don't know what you're questioning here.

Now, your current vote on me is based off of... what exactly? the fact that I didn't have any extreme suspicions on anyone this morning? And on the subject of your lack of contribution, you have a total of 12 posts in this thread. One is your confirm post, two are from the joke stage, and the rest seem rather short, with almost no meaningful analysis of anyone but myself.

My wording was that I didn't find anybody too suspicious. My current vote is not OMGUS, it's because you found my saying that to make me scum. Unless your vote is based off of anything but that and my fosing of plonky, then please, explain these.

[ac1983fan]

My wording was that I didn't find anybody too suspicious.

My current vote is not OMGUS

, it's because you found my saying that to make me scum. Unless your vote is based off of anything but that and my fosing of plonky, then please, explain these.

for my main suspicions of you see post 134. it is not a terribly strong case, and i am probably not the best at presenting cases, myself, but do you honestly feel that my vote is not warranted? you don't think that your actions and posts are the least bit suspicious? has your play been that flawless?

your logic isn't terrible, but it seems inconsistent. you couldn't find anyone "too" suspicious until i tossed a serious vote in your direction. you support people voting for who they think is suspicious, but become suspicious of them if they vote

you

?

I'm voting you because you have not contributed too much to this game, and you said in your post that "if you can't find scum, you are scum". If you had said this to anyone else, I would've in all likelyhood voted you anyway. That is completely crap logic.

I'm not saying my play is flawless, I tend to be found scummy regardless of if I'm town or not. However, you just didn't really seem to explain your reasons for voting for me too clearly. I explained everything that you questioned me about in post 134.

[ac1983fan]

She had valid reasons to be suspicious of zee, so I unvoted my vote on her.
The reasons to be suspicious of zee are because mostly of his OMGUS vote for EA where he claimed that he didn't need to provide reasons for his vote.

i am confused by this. you said there were reasons to VOTE zeenon. you are the one making a distinction between votes and suspicions in order to defend yourself. now they become conveniently interchangeable?

What are you saying? I can't even understand this... suspicious are better reasons to vote Zee than random votes... I really don't know what you're questioning here.

did jazz have valid reasons for voting zee or not? i thought she said it was random... she did. then she came up with suspicions after the fact. you said you weren't voting people because noone was "too" suspicious, yet you clear jazz's "random" vote because she has "valid" suspicions. i just don't get it. are you guys scumbuddies?[/quote]
No, we are not scumbuddies. Yes, I know, WIFOM...
She said it was random initially, but she obviously had some reasoning about it... My not thinking anyone is too suspicious has nothing to do really with my interactions with jazzmyn. Truth is, her play is confusing...

[ac1983fan]

@AC: Random vote does not mean joke vote.

One can easily qualify as both.

Top of page 7 vote count:

ac1983fan 2 (don_johnson, q21)
don_johnson 2 (dejkha, ac1983fan)
ZEEnon 1 (Jazzmyn)
Erratus Apathos 1 (ZEEnon)
dejkha 1 (Plonky)
Zer0ph34r 1 (Erratus Apathos)
killa seven 1 (Herodotus)

Not voting: killa seven, Zer0ph34r, Tovarish,

With 12 still packing it takes 7 to lynch.

Note: this vote count should be accurate as of this post.

Plonky has not picked up his prod yet.

[ac1983fan]

Killa7, please start contributing. Explain why you think people are scum. Not posting and then posting crap like "i'm here" doesn't help the town.

[ac1983fan]

My not thinking anyone is too suspicious has nothing to do really with my interactions with jazzmyn.

why not? saying a vote is random and then backing it up with reasoning is a little off kilter. jazz obviously has rl time constraints which affect her posting, but i don't see why this should alleviate suspicion.

i understand the flaw in my original statement, but it was meant to be motivational. i would like ac to address this.

I get what you're saying. While jazz did initially say it was a random vote, she has actual suspicions towards zeenon anyway. I unvoted because I no longer felt comfortable with voting for jazzmyn. However, she's definitely not off my scumdar.

[ac1983fan]

My not thinking anyone is too suspicious has nothing to do really with my interactions with jazzmyn.

why not? saying a vote is random and then backing it up with reasoning is a little off kilter. jazz obviously has rl time constraints which affect her posting, but i don't see why this should alleviate suspicion.

i understand the flaw in my original statement, but it was meant to be motivational. i would like ac to address this.

I get what you're saying. While jazz did initially say it was a random vote, she has actual suspicions towards zeenon anyway. I unvoted because I no longer felt comfortable with voting for jazzmyn. However, she's definitely not off my scumdar.

do you still feel justified in your vote on me?

Well, you still really haven't fully explained your statement: "If you can't find scum, you are scum". You claim that it was meant to be motivational; how could that have possibly been taken as motivational?

[ac1983fan]

My not thinking anyone is too suspicious has nothing to do really with my interactions with jazzmyn.

why not? saying a vote is random and then backing it up with reasoning is a little off kilter. jazz obviously has rl time constraints which affect her posting, but i don't see why this should alleviate suspicion.

i understand the flaw in my original statement, but it was meant to be motivational. i would like ac to address this.

I get what you're saying. While jazz did initially say it was a random vote, she has actual suspicions towards zeenon anyway. I unvoted because I no longer felt comfortable with voting for jazzmyn. However, she's definitely not off my scumdar.

do you still feel justified in your vote on me?

Well, you still really haven't fully explained your statement: "If you can't find scum, you are scum". You claim that it was meant to be motivational; how could that have possibly been taken as motivational?

you are leaving out the end of the quote in which i said, "try harder." i thought i did explain the statement. scum are put to the task of conveniently finding excuses not to vote each other. yes, bussing happens, but i would say more often than not that scum actively try to avoid each other on day 1. also, they are faced with the task of proving someone scum, who isn't scum, and so often they will try to stay on the outskirts of arguments and remain non committal. your brief foray into the activity and subsequent "nobody seems to suspicious," comment seemed suspicious to me. i voted, and i gave you an out to said vote. i.e. "try harder". not sure how much more i can explain my statement. scum can't find scum because they know who the scum are. thus they don't need to look. you can slice the statement many ways. tov's interpretation pointed out the flaws in the statement which is why i explained it in the first place.

I can see where you were coming from.

unvote

If killa doesn't post something constructive within the next couple of days, I'd support his lynch, because so far, he's been a lurker who has contributed almost nothing to the game, and lynch all lurkers is a good policy. I can forgive plonky as long as he comes threw on his promise.

[ac1983fan]

I do play, i just generally dont do much on day 1's.

And me saying "almost everyone looks scummy" was just a general observation at that time, no examples, i wont provide them so stop asking.

How in the world does that help the town? Every day is equally important.

[ac1983fan]

Killa7, if you do not post something remotely constructive within the next 24 hours, I will definitely vote for you. I don't really give a crap if this is your playstyle, it is not helpful to the town.

[ac1983fan]

vote: killa seven

I gave you 24 hours, and you decide to post stuff completely unconstructive? When you have posted something even moderately constructive, you fail to post reasons. You have not answered several of the questions you have been asked.

[ac1983fan]

vote: killa seven

I gave you 24 hours, and you decide to post stuff completely unconstructive? When you have posted something even moderately constructive, you fail to post reasons. You have not answered several of the questions you have been asked.

i wont respond to your threats.
can you tell that i dont care by now?

I wasn't threatening you. I was making a statement. I was playing the game of mafia. What's your beef with playing mafia?
If you don't care, than ask to be replaced in this game.

[ac1983fan]

I guess friday's a busy day for people? Almost zippo posts?
Anyway, I'll be gone from morning saturday to midday sunday. So if anything changes between now and then, don't expect me to comment on it until sunday afternoon.

Noted

[ac1983fan]

Killa7, if you do not post something remotely constructive within the next 24 hours, I will definitely vote for you. I don't really give a crap if this is your playstyle, it is not helpful to the town.

vote: killa seven

I gave you 24 hours, and you decide to post stuff completely unconstructive? When you have posted something even moderately constructive, you fail to post reasons. You have not answered several of the questions you have been asked.

Is it just me, or can anyone else confirm that these posts were only about 11 hours apart? 11 is

less than half

of 24. And AC, no claiming that you are posting from a ship traveling at relativistic speeds, or from somewhere near a black hole: then your time would be dilated, not contracted.

I noticed, but it was a cute excuse to hop on the wagon.
[/color]

He posted, but it wasn't constructive. Therefore, I felt compelled to vote for him, since it became clear he wasn't going to be constructive before the 24 hours was up.

[ac1983fan]

So basically, I want to lynch Killaseven because he thinks day 1's are unimportant and refuses to contribute much to them. I feel everybody should contribute as much as they can on every day. Also, he was lurking for quite a while, and came back with an "I'm here" post, which actually hurts the game.
And to reiterate, I knew that 24 hours hadn't past, but killa seven had posted, completely ignoring my post directed towards him as well as several questions directed towards him. So therefore, he made it clear that he wasn't going to post anything remotely constructive within my deadline.

[ac1983fan]

If you don't care, than ask to be replaced in this game.

Exactly. Although it is clear that killa seven is reverting to idiotic play, he should not be lynched for it. Replacement is the way to go.

Unfortunately, a player cannot be replaced unless they stop posting or they ask to be replaced. So lynching a player who "doesn't care" yet refuses to be replaced that is either a vanilla townie or scum (because I highly doubt that he would turn up as a powerrole, seeing as he has claimed vanilla) is a better day 1 lynch than lynching a constructive townie.

[ac1983fan]

And to reiterate, I knew that 24 hours hadn't past, but killa seven had posted, completely ignoring my post directed towards him as well as several questions directed towards him. So therefore, he made it clear that he wasn't going to post anything remotely constructive within my deadline.

That would have been fine except you then wrote:

vote: killa seven

I gave you 24 hours

, and you decide to post stuff completely unconstructive? When you have posted something even moderately constructive, you fail to post reasons. You have not answered several of the questions you have been asked.

As in I was going to give him a 24 hour window. Maybe I should've worded that better.

[ac1983fan]

Who said anything about lynching a constructive townie?

Nobody did, I'm just saying lynching an unconstructive one is better than lynching a constructive one.

[ac1983fan]

Nobody did, I'm just saying lynching an unconstructive one is better than lynching a constructive one.

Wouldn't that logic only work if you knew who was town?

I'm not saying I do, because I don't. What I'm saying is that I support a lynch of killa7, who has claimed townie, and therefore, if he does turn up as a townie, I prefer that to lynching somebody else who has posting frequently and having them turn up as being town.

Basically, I won't feel to upset if we lynch him and he is vanilla, as he claims. However, if he decides to ask to be replaced for this game, since he doesn't care about it, than I would unvote so that the replacer would hopefully have a chance of being constructive.

[ac1983fan]

Who said anything about lynching a constructive townie?

Nobody did, I'm just saying lynching an unconstructive one is better than lynching a constructive one.

Personally, I'd rather lynch scum. I find your moves towards this to be notable.

So would I. But the odds of lynching scum on D1 of a daystart game are rather low, so I don't mind lynching somebody who's not contributing, and who refuses to answer questions. I'd prefer to lynch scum, but I'd also prefer killa seven post meaningfully. I believe killa seven's behavior is anti-town, and nobody else is really doing anything that is inherently anti-town. And yes, some scummy things have been said, but nothing that's major enough for me to want to lynch anybody else at this point. So basically, although I would prefer to lynch scum, a killa seven lynch looks like that it will be the only lynch I'm willing to support today, because of reasons I have listed.

[ac1983fan]

As in I was going to give him a 24 hour window. Maybe I should've worded that better.

Ok, that does seem to be a reasonable interpretation of what you wrote. At first, it looked like you were suggesting that the 24 hours were up.
On a related note, does anything about the timing of the votes on killer7 strike you as suspicious?

Nothing. Why do you ask?

[ac1983fan]

Who said anything about lynching a constructive townie?

Nobody did, I'm just saying lynching an unconstructive one is better than lynching a constructive one.

I don't like the way you seem almost dead-set on lynching a townie. Don't specifically seem to want you just don't seem to accept the possibility of anything else.

Nobody did, I'm just saying lynching an unconstructive one is better than lynching a constructive one.

Wouldn't that logic only work if you knew who was town?

I'm not saying I do, because I don't. What I'm saying is that I support a lynch of killa7, who has claimed townie, and therefore, if he does turn up as a townie, I prefer that to lynching somebody else who has posting frequently and having them turn up as being town.

Basically, I won't feel to upset if we lynch him and he is vanilla, as he claims. However, if he decides to ask to be replaced for this game, since he doesn't care about it, than I would unvote so that the replacer would hopefully have a chance of being constructive.

As a townie you should be upset each and every time you lynch a fellow townie. Especially one you seem to have little conviction is scum anyway.

Who said anything about lynching a constructive townie?

Nobody did, I'm just saying lynching an unconstructive one is better than lynching a constructive one.

Personally, I'd rather lynch scum. I find your moves towards this to be notable.

So would I. But the odds of lynching scum on D1 of a daystart game are rather low, so I don't mind lynching somebody who's not contributing, and who refuses to answer questions. I'd prefer to lynch scum, but I'd also prefer killa seven post meaningfully. I believe killa seven's behavior is anti-town, and nobody else is really doing anything that is inherently anti-town. And yes, some scummy things have been said, but nothing that's major enough for me to want to lynch anybody else at this point. So basically, although I would prefer to lynch scum, a killa seven lynch looks like that it will be the only lynch I'm willing to support today, because of reasons I have listed.

The odds increase when you don't have everyone pile up on the first easy bandwagon to present itself. You seem almost resigned to the fact that K-7 is town, and yet you say he's the only lynch you'll support...

This post would be so much cooler if I could end it with a vote for acfan... but I'm already voting him... oh well...

I'm not dead-set on lynching a townie, it's just that, since I voted for him, there have been zero developments that could make me change my vote. He has not been replaced, he has not started contributing, and nobody else has said anything to make me want to vote for anyone else. At this point in Day 1, I don't see many other options for today's lynch. He is the player with, in my opinion,

the most anti-town behavior

. If something were to happen that would make him not be the person who has the most anti-town behavior, than guess what:

I'd stop voting for him.

However, since I voted for killa, very little has been said that is not about lynching him.

[ac1983fan]

To me your whole attitude reads badly, it comes of as basically: I've voted k7. He's probably town, but lets lynch him before anything else comes up.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but that's how it seems to me - hence I'm happy with my vote.

No, it's "I've voted k7. He's probably town, but

seems like the best

lynch at this time, since he hasn't contributed anything constructive and refuses to answer questions. I'm open to change my vote, if[/b] anything else

very scummy/anti-town against someone else

comes up

, which has not happened

."

[ac1983fan]

To me your whole attitude reads badly, it comes of as basically: I've voted k7. He's probably town, but lets lynch him before anything else comes up.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but that's how it seems to me - hence I'm happy with my vote.

No, it's "I've voted k7. He's probably town, but

seems like the best lynch at this time, since he hasn't contributed anything constructive and refuses to answer questions. I'm open to change my vote, if

anything else

very scummy/anti-town against someone else

comes up

, which has not happened

."

Tag fail fixed by way of quote.

[ac1983fan]

You see, as soon as you put "He's probably town" no matter what you say after that, if you still want to lynch him I find it scummy.

I don't see you saying anything to anyone else voting for him. I'm pretty sure most of them think that he is town, since scum knows claiming vanilla will likely not save them. Why are you so intent on questioning me but nobody else about this?

[ac1983fan]

1. I don't think anyone else has said so in as many words as you, though I speak under correction there.

2. I already suspected you a bit anyway.

1. I've been the only person who's been questioned in such a way where I would respond the way I have been.

[ac1983fan]

You see, as soon as you put "He's probably town" no matter what you say after that, if you still want to lynch him I find it scummy.

I don't see you saying anything to anyone else voting for him. I'm pretty sure most of them think that he is town,

since scum knows claiming vanilla will likely not save them.

^^^^^ wifom. vanilla is the easiest claim for scum to fake.

I've never seen a vanilla claim stop a lynch wagon though.

[ac1983fan]

I'm not dead-set on lynching a townie, it's just that, since I voted for him, there have been zero developments that could make me change my vote. He has not been replaced, he has not started contributing, and nobody else has said anything to make me want to vote for anyone else.

So you aren't swayed by anything q21 and I have been saying?

At this point in Day 1, I don't see many other options for today's lynch.

I'm puzzled, as mentioned before, as to why a lynch at the moment is best. Especially since we are targetting an annoyance rather than actual scum.

He is the player with, in my opinion, the

most anti-town behavior

. If something were to happen that would make him not be the person who has the most anti-town behavior, than guess what: I'd stop voting for him. However, since I voted for killa, very little has been said that is not about lynching him.

Okay, you clearly didn't read my post or are choosing to ignore it.

Being anti-town is not the same as being scummy. It is not a satisfactory reason for voting for somebody.

q21 and your posts are trying to lynch me, how the hell am I going to be swayed by that? That's the only alternative being presented to a killa lynch at the moment.
Note that I NEVER said I wanted to lynch RIGHT NOW, I said I didn't see many other options, so at this moment, he's the only lynch I can support.
Yes, Anti-town =/= scummy. In fact, Anti-town > Scummy. Anti-town behavior hurts the town, scummy behavior is just scummy. A townie can be the scummiest player in the game, but he can also be the most anti-town player in the game, which is far, far worse. I am trying to help the town.
First of all, which part of which of your posts are you accusing me of not reading?
Apparantly you didn't read MY posts, or are choosing to ignore them, because I've clearly said, several times, that I would rather lynch scum, but so far nobody has brought up a compelling case for anyone else/my own opinions on everyone else is that they do not have very scummy behavoir.

I don't see you saying anything to anyone else voting for him. I'm pretty sure most of them think that he is town, since scum knows claiming vanilla will likely not save them.

Uhhh, no. If I believed killa seven was town, I would absolutely not be voting him, because lynching town flies

directly

in the face of my win-con. I don't buy for one second that you believe k7 is town but think he should be lynched regardless.

Unvote
Vote: ac1983fan

Are you not reading the thread?

HE CLAIMED VANILLA

. He is, therefore, either a townie, a member of the mafia with a claim which I've never seen stop a lynch wagon, or a really stupid power role. I obviously have no actual idea if he's town or scum or some sort of jester or some other wierd shit. I'm voting him because he has displayed the most ANTI-TOWN behavior, i.e. NOTHING HE HAS DONE HAS HELPED THE TOWN. If he comes up scum, he was playing as really bad scum. Really bad.

[ac1983fan]

Are you not reading the thread?

HE CLAIMED VANILLA

. He is, therefore, either a townie, a member of the mafia with a claim which I've never seen stop a lynch wagon, or a really stupid power role. I obviously have no actual idea if he's town or scum or some sort of jester or some other wierd shit. I'm voting him because he has displayed the most ANTI-TOWN behavior

AC, this might sound like a stupid question because you might feel that you've already answered it, but how probable do you think it is that Killer is scum? There are presumably 2, 3, or 4 scum out there, so let's say the average probability of a player being scum right now is 1/4. Would you put Killer above or below that?

Probably about 1/6 chance of him being scum, I'd say.

So basically, although I would prefer to lynch scum, a killa seven lynch looks like that it will be the only lynch I'm willing to support today, because of reasons I have listed.

Just because Killer is the only alternative at the moment doesn't mean there will never be another. Keeping him at L-1 doesn't just mean that you think he's a good lynch, it means you are done looking for any better lynches.

q21 and your posts are trying to lynch me, how the hell am I going to be swayed by that? That's the only alternative being presented to a killa lynch at the moment.

If you want another alternative, present one. (Whether you need another option depends on whether you think K7 is scum, naturally.) On the other hand, if your primary goal today isn't to find scum, but to not get lynched, then your best strategy is to keep your vote where it is, not make any other cases, and hope Jazzmyn hammers next time she logs on.

I'm keeping my vote where it is because I feel comfortable with it, and there's nobody else I'd feel comfortable voting. I don't find anyone scummy enough to present an alternative, and the only other alternative proposed at this point has been to lynch moi, and of course my goal today is to not get lynched; that's usually everybody's goal. The odds of us lynching correctly on D1 of a daystart game aren't very good, so I'm okay with voting a player who's playstyle is very anti-town.

[ac1983fan]

Yes, Anti-town =/= scummy. In fact, Anti-town > Scummy. Anti-town behavior hurts the town, scummy behavior is just scummy.

I patently disagree with this idea. Scummy behaviour is by its very nature anti-town.

Probably about 1/6 chance of him being scum, I'd say.

Wait so you're even going to the extent of putting k7s likelyhood of being scum at less than the baseline likelyhood of someone being scum?
Also, stop complaining about the "odds" of hitting scum on day one. In the thirteen games I've finished on this site as a player or mod scum has been lynched day one on 5 occasion and daykilled once (the target had to have 5 votes minimum too). In short it happens, surprisingly often.

But scummy things aren't necessarily agreed upon by everyone. I'm doing things you consider scummy, but others don't, scummyness is all in interpretation. Anti-town things (like not posting or not answering questions) are almost universally agreed upon as bad and lynch-worthy.

If k7 is scum, he's bad scum, or just really doesn't care, because scum generally don't (and shouldn't) expect a vanilla claim to protect them.
I'm not complaining about odds; 13 games isn't enough to make a statistical conclusion. If you surveyed 200 completed games in little italy, the number of scum lynches day 1 would probably be between 45 and 65 (I'd say 45-55, but there are some minis which have night start). I'm not saying it's impossible, but with day start games, you have very little info to go on. So lynching somebody who's not contributing but likely a townie is far better than some of the other possibilities, like lynching the cop or doc.

[ac1983fan]

And you think this is protwon approach?

You, of all people, are hardly in a position to talk about pro-town approaches. You have made it clear that you have no interest in helping the town on Day 1, apparently on the basis that you simply can't be bothered to play games you signed up for unless and until you live to Day 2.

You do nothing to help the town, you put townies at greater risk by sitting back and not lifting a finger to contribute to the town cause,

and you flat out refuse to participate in the game in any meaningful fashion. To me, this signifies scumminess, selfishness, and self-centeredness.

From your posts, it seems that you expect everyone else to give you a pass in every game you sign up for and then promptly refuse to play for the duration of the first, and arguably most important, day because, in your words, 'that's the way you roll'. This is utterly ridiculous. If everyone adopted such a blatantly anti-town, pro-scum attitude, no game would ever get past the first few posts.

But somehow it's supposed to be acceptable for you to act this way because 'that's the way you roll'? I don't think so.

Perhaps if others stop letting you get away with your scummy refusal to participate in the games you sign up for, you will actually start playing the game on Day 1.

So how about choosing one of these options, killa seven:
1) commit to participating meaningfully in this game on Day 1;
2) ask to be replaced; or
3) confirm that you will do neither 1 or 2 above.

Regards,
Jazz

Epic QFT

there are plenty of people not doing shit, you guys are so focused on me "not helping" that you fail to see the others coasting it out, what about EA? he hoped on my wagon saying post or die.. then posted once then came back to hop on AC's wagon with another weak excuse once he was taking heat, i may be lazy somtimes but i dont just throw my vote around like a frizbee and abandon wagons because they lose steam.
How am i being selfish? i cleary said if you dont like my style lynch me, i have won plenty of games so i do know how to play regardless of what you think.

EA at least posts reasons for his suspicions and votes. Nobody's asking you to change your vote at every turn, we're just asking you to contribute something meaningful. This may be your playstyle, you may have won games with it, but this behavior seems anti-town to many of the players in this game.

[ac1983fan]

Are you not reading the thread?

HE CLAIMED VANILLA

. He is, therefore, either a townie, a member of the mafia with a claim which I've never seen stop a lynch wagon, or a really stupid power role. I obviously have no actual idea if he's town or scum or some sort of jester or some other wierd shit. I'm voting him because he has displayed the most ANTI-TOWN behavior, i.e. NOTHING HE HAS DONE HAS HELPED THE TOWN. If he comes up scum, he was playing as really bad scum. Really bad.

Ah shit, you got me, I am in fact not reading the thread. I didn't read post 255 where you say he's probably town, I didn't read post 273 where you say you have no idea if he's town, and I didn't read post 276 where you estimate his odds of being scum at 1/6. Good thing for you that I didn't read them, because publicly noting that sort of inconsistency would make it hard for you to survive.

I was being somewhat sarcastic. But seriously, you didn't respond to the point I was making.
[quote="EA"

Same question. Above or below baseline probability that Killer is scum?

Slightly above.
[/quote]
First of all, there is really no reasoning for why he would be scum, because the only reason anyone (including yourself) have been voting for him, is because he has not been posting, which is his early game playstyle (which most of us agree is incredibly anti-town) Second of all, this seems somewhat contradictory with the following:

@EA and dejka: Could you each tell us why you are voting for Killer Seven?

Because I don't tolerate lurking.

(Not because you think he's scum?)

How in the world would I be able to guess whether he's scum? In case you haven't noticed, he's a lurker!

I don't see you saying anything to anyone else voting for him. I'm pretty sure most of them think that he is town, since scum knows claiming vanilla will likely not save them.

Uhhh, no. If I believed killa seven was town, I would absolutely not be voting him, because lynching town flies

directly

in the face of my win-con. I don't buy for one second that you believe k7 is town but think he should be lynched regardless.

Unvote
Vote: ac1983fan

This might not be particularly scummy; you're leaving the most promising wagon for the second most promising. You could have scummy or pro-town reasons for doing so.
But it's kind of weird that you indicate that you think K7 is scum

for the first time

, then unvote in the same post.

WTF? I didn't say I thought he was scum in that post.

So you do think he might be scum, but you don't think he's scum, but you're voting me because I don't really think he's scum? please explain your logic here?

Also, the town win condition is a bit more subtle than "never lynch town, ever," so I don't think you really mean "directly." Finally, if AC is scum, and K7 is town, then AC does know that K7 is town but wants him lynched regardless. If you don't believe AC wants townies lynched, then you don't believe AC is scum. So why are you voting him?

You know what's better than semantics? Anything else at all. Yes there are very rare circumstances where intentionally lynching town is beneficial, who gives a fuck? And when I said I didn't believe AC's story, I'm pretty sure AC being scum wasn't a part of that story

So then why are you voting for me if you don't think I'm scum? unless you do think I'm scum, and you just word your posts really oddly.

[ac1983fan]

EBWOP: quote fail

Are you not reading the thread?

HE CLAIMED VANILLA

. He is, therefore, either a townie, a member of the mafia with a claim which I've never seen stop a lynch wagon, or a really stupid power role. I obviously have no actual idea if he's town or scum or some sort of jester or some other wierd shit. I'm voting him because he has displayed the most ANTI-TOWN behavior, i.e. NOTHING HE HAS DONE HAS HELPED THE TOWN. If he comes up scum, he was playing as really bad scum. Really bad.

Ah shit, you got me, I am in fact not reading the thread. I didn't read post 255 where you say he's probably town, I didn't read post 273 where you say you have no idea if he's town, and I didn't read post 276 where you estimate his odds of being scum at 1/6. Good thing for you that I didn't read them, because publicly noting that sort of inconsistency would make it hard for you to survive.

I was being somewhat sarcastic. But seriously, you didn't respond to the point I was making. Scum don't usually claim vanilla if they want to win.

Same question. Above or below baseline probability that Killer is scum?

Slightly above.

First of all, there is really no reasoning for why he would be scum, because the only reason anyone (including yourself) have been voting for him, is because he has not been posting, which is his early game playstyle (which most of us agree is incredibly anti-town) Second of all, this seems somewhat contradictory with the following:

@EA and dejka: Could you each tell us why you are voting for Killer Seven?

Because I don't tolerate lurking.

(Not because you think he's scum?)

How in the world would I be able to guess whether he's scum? In case you haven't noticed, he's a lurker!

I don't see you saying anything to anyone else voting for him. I'm pretty sure most of them think that he is town, since scum knows claiming vanilla will likely not save them.

Uhhh, no. If I believed killa seven was town, I would absolutely not be voting him, because lynching town flies

directly

in the face of my win-con. I don't buy for one second that you believe k7 is town but think he should be lynched regardless.

Unvote
Vote: ac1983fan

This might not be particularly scummy; you're leaving the most promising wagon for the second most promising. You could have scummy or pro-town reasons for doing so.
But it's kind of weird that you indicate that you think K7 is scum

for the first time

, then unvote in the same post.

WTF? I didn't say I thought he was scum in that post.

So you do think he might be scum, but you don't think he's scum, but you're voting me because I don't really think he's scum? please explain your logic here?

Also, the town win condition is a bit more subtle than "never lynch town, ever," so I don't think you really mean "directly." Finally, if AC is scum, and K7 is town, then AC does know that K7 is town but wants him lynched regardless. If you don't believe AC wants townies lynched, then you don't believe AC is scum. So why are you voting him?

You know what's better than semantics? Anything else at all. Yes there are very rare circumstances where intentionally lynching town is beneficial, who gives a fuck? And when I said I didn't believe AC's story, I'm pretty sure AC being scum wasn't a part of that story

So then why are you voting for me if you don't think I'm scum? unless you do think I'm scum, and you just word your posts really oddly.

[ac1983fan]

Shit, I forgot I copied part of my post to a text editor and was going to put it all together.
here's what was supposed to be the first part.

unvote

Don_johnson's & hero's posts are both good points, although I think EA is far scummier than dehjka, and I'm going to wait for plonky to respond to DJ before I vote...

If k7 is scum, he's bad scum, or just really doesn't care, because scum generally don't (and shouldn't) expect a vanilla claim to protect them.
I'm not complaining about odds; 13 games isn't enough to make a statistical conclusion. If you surveyed 200 completed games in little italy, the number of scum lynches day 1 would probably be between 45 and 65 (I'd say 45-55, but there are some minis which have night start). I'm not saying it's impossible, but with day start games, you have very little info to go on. So lynching somebody who's not contributing but likely a townie is far better than some of the other possibilities, like lynching the cop or doc.

So given the choice of lynching probable townies, or lynching probable scum who

might

be power roles, you'd rather lynch townies. That would be the most anti-town thing I've ever heard of, had I not heard of killa seven.

That's not what I said, I said given the choice between lynching a noncontributing probable townie, and lynching another player who seems a

little

scummy to me, I would rather lynch the player with the clear anti-town behavior, esp. on day 1 when we have no information other than hunches and behavior to go on. Please refrain from twisting my words.

[ac1983fan]

I didn't say I wanted the deadline sooner, I said [READ POST]. That doesn't say anywhere in there that I want it to happen sooner.

What exactly did you mean in the post? Did you mean to ask the mod to change the deadline in the title from March 12 to Two weeks? Because march 12 is in two weeks from yesterday, for everyone who didn't notice.

[ac1983fan]

Are you not reading the thread?

HE CLAIMED VANILLA

. He is, therefore, either a townie, a member of the mafia with a claim which I've never seen stop a lynch wagon, or a really stupid power role. I obviously have no actual idea if he's town or scum or some sort of jester or some other wierd shit. I'm voting him because he has displayed the most ANTI-TOWN behavior, i.e. NOTHING HE HAS DONE HAS HELPED THE TOWN. If he comes up scum, he was playing as really bad scum. Really bad.

Ah shit, you got me, I am in fact not reading the thread. I didn't read post 255 where you say he's probably town, I didn't read post 273 where you say you have no idea if he's town, and I didn't read post 276 where you estimate his odds of being scum at 1/6. Good thing for you that I didn't read them, because publicly noting that sort of inconsistency would make it hard for you to survive.

I was being somewhat sarcastic. But seriously, you didn't respond to the point I was making.

Nor you mine, I note.

You say you think k7 is town, but are willing to lynch him anyways because "he has displayed the most ANTI-TOWN behavior". So? If he's town, that's still a mislynch. Why are you trying to mislynch? Is it because that's how you win?

Alright, I'll explain myself fully. I have no actual information to know if killa seven is town or not. He seems, however, to have a playstyle that is incredibly anti-town in nature. He has also claimed townie. Scum aren't usually saved by a townie claim, because lynching a townie is far from the worst lynch possible on day 1. And at the time, there were really no other cases I felt compelled to agree with. Because the only alternative being presented at the time was to lynch me, which I obviously don't want to happen.

@EA and dejka: Could you each tell us why you are voting for Killer Seven?

Because I don't tolerate lurking.

(Not because you think he's scum?)

How in the world would I be able to guess whether he's scum? In case you haven't noticed, he's a lurker!

I don't see you saying anything to anyone else voting for him. I'm pretty sure most of them think that he is town, since scum knows claiming vanilla will likely not save them.

Uhhh, no. If I believed killa seven was town, I would absolutely not be voting him, because lynching town flies

directly

in the face of my win-con. I don't buy for one second that you believe k7 is town but think he should be lynched regardless.

Unvote
Vote: ac1983fan

This might not be particularly scummy; you're leaving the most promising wagon for the second most promising. You could have scummy or pro-town reasons for doing so.
But it's kind of weird that you indicate that you think K7 is scum

for the first time

, then unvote in the same post.

WTF? I didn't say I thought he was scum in that post.

So you do think he might be scum, but you don't think he's scum, but you're voting me because I don't really think he's scum? please explain your logic here?

I never said I didn't think he was scum. Just because I do in fact think he could be scum, doesn't mean I can't ask Herodotus about how he came to his conclusion.

So then why are you voting for me if you don't think I'm scum? unless you do think I'm scum, and you just word your posts really oddly.

I never said that either.

Well, the way you've been wording your posts, it just sounded like you were saying you did think k7 was scum but then said you don't think he's scum... I was probably just reading it wrong.

You're still wrong, though. The reason there are fewer mislynches on later days is because there are fewer suspects. If we don't lynch a suspect today, tomorrow will be just as "hunches and behavior" as today. But at the same time, scum can and do claim vanilla, so k7 shouldn't be removed from the suspect pool for his claim.

Well, fewer suspects and more information are together reasons why their are fewer mislynches on later days.

[ac1983fan]

I'm simply annoyed with ac1983fan's methods of trying to get attention or suspicion on me [like that lame what did you mean by post #325 thing]. That seemed a bit dumb to me.

Vote: ac1983fan

WTF, I had no idea what you meant, I'm not trying to do either of those things. I didn't initially understand what you meant by this:

I don't get why you would want things to move along, but put the deadline in 2 WEEKS.

Until rereading it this morning.
At first, I thought you meant to say to the mod to change the wording of the title post from March 12 to 2 weeks. Now I understand that you confused as to why the mod's deadline was in 2 weeks as opposed to sooner.
Seriously, WTF? How could anyone interpret that as trying to cast suspicion on you?

[ac1983fan]

the first thing you said is really scummy, i dont feel like shuffling through all the quotes.

The fact that I dislike your incredibly anti-town playstyle is scummy?
Or the fact that I want to lynch you for not contributing?

[ac1983fan]

I've just been waiting for a plonky response. Of course, if he get's replaced, I'll never get that response.
At this point, I'm getting an incredibly WTF? read from zerophear, and will likely vote either him, dejhka, or plonky. I'm just waiting on new posts from zero and plonky.
(Also, I just noticed that dejhka's avatar is from heroes. Which is an amazing show.)

[ac1983fan]

Well, hero was complaing abut a lack of posts, so I posted the only thing I could post.

[ac1983fan]

So basically, although I would prefer to lynch scum, a killa seven lynch looks like that it will be the only lynch I'm willing to support today, because of reasons I have listed.

I would like to know

exactly

what you meant by this. If you wouldn't mind, please restate this sentence such that there is no possibility whatsoever of misinterpretation (though you don't have to restate the reasons.) And also state whether you still agree with it.

At the time of that statement, nothing I had read throughout the thread had made me think anyone was scummy enough for me to want to vote for them. However, killa seven's playstyle hurts the town. And actually, it's worse than lurking, since he actually posts when prodded, but never provides any useful information to the town. Therefore, at that time, the killa seven was the only lynch I was could support, simply because his playstyle is incredibly anti-town. Now, however, cases have been brought up that have made me reconsider.

Yes, Anti-town =/= scummy. In fact, Anti-town > Scummy. Anti-town behavior hurts the town, scummy behavior is just scummy. A townie can be the scummiest player in the game, but he can also be the most anti-town player in the game, which is far, far worse. I am trying to help the town.

But based on your suspicions/lack of suspicions, a K7 lynch would be wasting time. To take it to an extreme, lynching everyone who displays anti-town behavior but is not likely scum would take several days, and the scum would have won before we were done. Obviously you aren't suggesting taking it that far, but doesn't every day matter? You said yourself that every day is equally important.

Every day does matter. At the time of my vote of killa seven, it looked like almost everything that could be squeezed out of day 1 had been.

I'm keeping my vote where it is because I feel comfortable with it, and there's nobody else I'd feel comfortable voting. I don't find anyone scummy enough to present an alternative,...

It's not as if you auto-lose the game if you're wrong about suspecting another player on day 1.

A police officer wouldn't arrest somebody on one little bit of evidence, unless it was pretty damning evidence. If I find somebody a little suspicious, I'm not quite willing to vote for them.

As for scum; I see some very possible connections between dejkha, ac1983fan, and Tovarish. AC, right out of the gate, uses a chainsaw defense against Plonky in defense of dejkha. And Torvish gives a weird defense of AC in 125.

It was never my intention of attacking dejkha, it was my intention to question plonky's voting of dejkha because of his statement, "bandwagon's are the path to victory for scum". While sometimes, bandwagons can lead to good things, more often than not, quick, unjustified bandwagons are run by the scum and hurt the town.
-------
At this point, I pretty much agree with hero's case against dehjka. Looking back, dehjka & EA's early exchange looks incredibly bussy, and if dehjka comes up scum, I wouldn't doubt it if EA came up scum as well.
Zer0phear's vote look's like a poorly disguised scum bandwagon vote. However, I'm going to have to

vote: dejkha

.

[ac1983fan]

2. Ac attacked someone for attacking you. That's a form of defense.

Maybe in an indirect way. But it wasn't my intention to defend dejkha.

[ac1983fan]

Thanks for the personal insults. You and I will never speak again.

I fail to see where he insulted you.
How does him saying that he and zerophear are brothers make him scummy?

[ac1983fan]

Well, that sucks... we lost our cop and a townie.
So,

vote:porkens

for this post:

[quote"dejkha"]
Clearly you missed the "We're brothers" post. I am getting quite the scum reading off you, buddy.

How is that post anything but admission of guilt?

The more I attack you, the scummier I get; bwahahahah[/quote]
and the case dj brought up against plonky. Also, the k7 hammer when discussion was still going on.

[ac1983fan]

Well, that sucks... we lost our cop and a townie.
So,

vote:porkens

for this post:

Clearly you missed the "We're brothers" post. I am getting quite the scum reading off you, buddy.

How is that post anything but admission of guilt?

The more I attack you, the scummier I get; bwahahahah

and the case dj brought up against plonky. Also, the k7 hammer when discussion was still going on.

Quote fixed.

[ac1983fan]

i am always suspicious of the first to post on day 2. especially when they write:

Well, that sucks... we lost our cop and a townie.

we can all read. added commentary like that above is usually considered a "scum tell".

ac: i don't get your vote. what is your actual reasoning?

i am not sure what to make of the "brothers", but it seems we won't be getting answers. the one who reacted suspiciously is no longer among us.

Discussion = good for town.
Hammering when good discussion is going on = bad for town.
I don't really think it's a scumtell, I guess I just type out whatever I'm thinking at the time of my post. Obviously it's not really necessary, but I don't know, I feel compulsed to say whatever I think, regardless if it is necessary/obvious.

He was a strange choice for an SK because he had a lot of suspicion on him (might have gotten hung if I hadn't hammered K7) and probably would have gotten himself hung sooner or later. Seems like a waste of a nightkill.

Ok, I agree with this... though there could have been a motive we can't see. Maybe if Zero is the SK, he was worried his brother might be able to figure it out from out-of-game information. Or something Dejkha said worried the SK.
Regardless, we now have three confirmed innocents, and the game deserves a re-read from all town-sided people with that in mind.

I'm assuming by three confirmed innocents, you mean three

dead

confirmed innocents, right? Unless you have some triple cop investigative ability.

[ac1983fan]

Ok, I agree with this... though there could have been a motive we can't see. Maybe if Zero is the SK, he was worried his brother might be able to figure it out from out-of-game information. Or something Dejkha said worried the SK.
Regardless, we now have three confirmed innocents, and the game deserves a re-read from all town-sided people with that in mind.

I'm assuming by three confirmed innocents, you mean three

dead

confirmed innocents, right? Unless you have some triple cop investigative ability.

Do you think these are the only interpretations of what I said? If so, do you think they are both possible? How would you even rate the possibility that we would have more than one cop?

I was just clarifying. I severly doubt we have multiple cops, but I just wanted to make sure you meant killa7, q21, and dejkha are three confirmed innocents.

[ac1983fan]

We need more posts from tovarish, ZEEnon, and Jazzmyn (although I understand some of you had limited access, RL troubles etc). We're playing a nine person game at this point, and all three of you (esp ZEEnon) contributed rather little day one. We can't have just six people talking.

Discussion = good for town.
Hammering when good discussion is going on = bad for town.
I don't really think it's a scumtell, I guess I just type out whatever I'm thinking at the time of my post. Obviously it's not really necessary, but I don't know, I feel compulsed to say whatever I think, regardless if it is necessary/obvious.

of course you don't think its a scumtell.

I wouldn't think it was a scumtell had anyone else done it, either.

[ac1983fan]

Zerophear reminds me of my playstyle back when I first started.
Relatively ignorant, contributing almost nothing, lurking like hell regardless of my alignment.
The only difference is I never claimed scum when I wasn't and I used aim slang/horrible spelling.

[ac1983fan]

ac, how am I ignorant? And when have I ever used AIM slang or had terrible spelling?

I meant i never claimed I was scum when I wasn't, and I used terrible spelling/grammar/aim slang.
Also, your seeming refusal to change your playstyle/method of playing makes you somewhat like I was.

[ac1983fan]

unvote

Consequently:

The SK should claim now

(assuming we are right that there is an SK.)
SK's are typically Night-Kill-immune. Even if you are not, you can say that you are and the scum will believe you. They won't want to waste a NK failing to kill you, so they won't try. They will have to endgame you or push for your lynch.
But, the town will not lynch you, because you have a major goal in common with us -- the whittling down and elimination of the mafia. That you chose Dejkha to kill last night (I assume that you believed him to be mafia) means you recognize that you don't want the mafia to get too far ahead, and now that our cop is gone, our odds of killing the mafia in the future have decreased. So we know that you'll be trying to take out the mafia, especially given the threat that they could become a majority soon. Also, knowing that you are the SK will help us find the mafia.

This feels like such a trap, but it also makes logical sense.

Claim - Serial Killer

I killed dejkha last night because he felt like the scummiest to me. I wasn't expecting their to be that much flavor in the night scene, but...

Assuming there is three mafia (the most likely amount), lynching me today would be a mistake for the town, as it would very likely put you in lynch or lose tomorrow. If we go after mafia today and are successful, then the town and myself will both be closer to winning. If we go after the mafia today but hit a townie instead, and I don't hit mafia tonight, the town will have already lost, and it would just be between myself and the mafia. So basically, lynching me today is not your best course of action.

[ac1983fan]

Porkens, what do you mean by "too easy"? And my number one suspect is either herodotus or Jazmyn. Have people forgot about her? She seems to be playing under the radar or something. She, to my memory has never actually been involved with any discussion, even I have been in at least a little, but she never posts anything, especially involving her thoughts.

Actually, jazzmyn has contributed as often as she can, and her posts are often quite long and detailed.

[ac1983fan]

After consideration, I don't believe acfan's claim at this time.

vote: acfan

Aside from the numerous suspicions already discussed about acfan, there are some other D1 issues.
In multiple posts on day 1 (viewtopic.php?p=1509480#1509480 last sentence, viewtopic.php?p=1523852#1523852 third paragraph, and also via his frequent references to and attitude about being cautious about votes,) acfan breadcrumbed that he was a cop.

What the hell are you talking about? I didn't breadcrumb anything. Show me the post where I did it. And anyway, as an SK, I would never claim anything but vanilla, SK, or Vig.

Also, the fact that an innocent (Q21) who suspected him was killed by the mafia is a bit suspicious (though on its own, it would not have been a big enough factor that he wouldn't have wanted to kill Q21.) Regardless of the WIFOM, acfan definitely had a reason to want to kill Q21 last night.

Maybe somebody else q21 was suspicious of was mafia. IDK their motivations.

Acfan knew he was a likely lynch, but also that the town would not want to lynch the SK.

No, I did not think of either of those things, until your posts have indicated them.

However, in the unlikely event that acfan's claim is not countered by either the real SK or a mafia player (in which case we start evaluating whom to believe, with acfan at a disadvantage) I will unvote. Acfan, if your claim is true and it stands up against the likely coming counterclaim, you will be in a decent position. If someone else had claimed SK, things might be different, but you are the player who had the most to gain from fake-claiming SK as a mafia member. We will decide whether to believe you when the counterclaim comes.

I am not fakeclaiming SK. I was one of the few people who suspected dejkha D1, I had motivation to kill him. I had already decided if we didn't lynch scum D1, I was going to go after who I thought was mafia to try and keep the game balanced.

But yeah, I never breadcrumbed cop, I wouldn't even know how to really breadcrumb. Please show me where you think I did this.

[ac1983fan]

Sorry, didn't see the links at first....

I'm keeping my vote where it is because I feel comfortable with it, and there's nobody else I'd feel comfortable voting. I don't find anyone scummy enough to present an alternative,...

It's not as if you auto-lose the game if you're wrong about suspecting another player on day 1.

A police officer wouldn't arrest somebody on one little bit of evidence, unless it was pretty damning evidence. If I find somebody a little suspicious, I'm not quite willing to vote for them.

Please tell me this isn't what you meant by breadcrumbing. I was making a metaphor/analogy. That was the best metaphor I could think of. Not breadcrumbing, you're reading waaay to much into that post.

So lynching somebody who's not contributing but likely a townie is far better than some of the other possibilities, like lynching the cop or doc.

Again, I hope this wasn't the part you considered breadcrumbing. An SK trying to claim cop is more stupid than a mafia trying to claim cop.

I was planning on a vig claim if I was going to be lynched, but obviously there was enough flavor to figure it out.

[ac1983fan]

DOUBLE EBWOP: Even if you really

are

the SK, I am personally FINE with the sub-optimal lynch. I was just being quiet about Herod's silly plan because, shit, he was aiming to out 2 scum.

So you'd rather put yourself at lylo than try to gain an advantage over the mafia?

[ac1983fan]

In multiple posts on day 1 (viewtopic.php?p=1509480#1509480 last sentence, viewtopic.php?p=1523852#1523852 third paragraph, and also via his frequent references to and attitude about being cautious about votes,) acfan breadcrumbed that he was a cop.

What the hell are you talking about? I didn't breadcrumb anything. Show me the post where I did it.

I just listed two posts, and even pointed out the specific sentences.

Sorry, I didn't notice those... I'm dumb like that sometimes.

So lynching somebody who's not contributing but likely a townie is far better than some of the other possibilities, like lynching the cop or doc.

^ Said when you were the next most likely candidate.

Again, I was just stating facts. It wasn't intended to be breadcrumbing, your interpretation of it is just... wrong.

A police officer wouldn't arrest somebody on one little bit of evidence, unless it was pretty damning evidence. If I find somebody a little suspicious, I'm not quite willing to vote for them.

^"A police officer wouldn't do ____, so I'm not going to do ____."

No, it was an analogy. I was explaining the thinking behind my actions. It was never intended to make you think I was the cop.

And anyway, as an SK, I would never claim anything but vanilla, SK, or Vig.

You are damning yourself here. This does not support your claim, because there is evidence (whether it it correct or not) that you were planning to claim cop. By your own meta-claim, that would dispute your SK-claim. You'd be better off shutting up until we know who is going to counter your claim, then choosing your arguments based on which player that was.

I'm going to respond to anything I feel the need to. You believe I am mafia, you are wrong.

[ac1983fan]

good call EA, but i believe the person who brought up the fact that tomorrow might be lylo was in fact acfan. am i wrong on this point?

the only way tomorrow could be lylo

and

acfan be sk is if there are three scum, no? i think the question we should be asking is how acfan seems so sure that there are three scum.

well?

Even though the SK doesn't know how many mafia there are, he has a very good reason to promote the idea that there's three: it makes the town rather nervous about lynching him.

I'd be pretty surprised if their weren't three mafia.

[ac1983fan]

yeah, porkens. actually ac did

Did you not read my explanation post regarding my initial post about you?
My Post.[/url]

[ac1983fan]

can anyone explain a "pro town" reason to not lynch acfan?

i just don't see it. it seems that based on some current assumptions(i.e. three player mafia team, serial killer) that town may be in lylo regardless of what is done today. keeping fan alive gives a viable lynch tomorrow, but then we'd be in the same position we are now.

bottom line seems: ac1983fan is a claimed anti town role. 100% correct for a lynch.

vote: ac1983fan

someone please explain to me if i am missing something.

Lynching me gives the mafia the upperhand. If we lynch mafia today, both the town and myself get a better chance of winning over the mafia. Granted, you've got to take a serial killer with you part of the way, but isn't that better than giving your larger opponent the edge?

[ac1983fan]

Lynching me gives the mafia the upperhand.

It gives them less of one than if you kill a townie tonight.

If we lynch mafia today, both the town and myself get a better chance of winning over the mafia.

IF we lynch mafia and IF you don't shoot a town tonight

Granted, you've got to take a serial killer with you part of the way, but isn't that better than giving your larger opponent the edge?

It doesn't really give them an edge, it just takes the swing out of the game.

I could shoot someone who I think is town but is maf. Or one of the scum kills could be blocked/protected. With an SK and a mafia, I'm guessing there is at least one each of RB and Doc. Or a jailer. Or something along those lines. There's infinitely many possiblities; not lynching me (yet) is more optimal. Later, you should definitely lynch me if you're smart.

[ac1983fan]

Nobody's cc'd yet. If they do, congrats, the town just outed two scum.
If anybody does cc, they need to be the lynch today, because I am the SK.
(I never expected I'd have to be prepared for an SK cc...)

[ac1983fan]

Lynching me gives the mafia the upperhand.

It gives them less of one than if you kill a townie tonight.

If we lynch mafia today, both the town and myself get a better chance of winning over the mafia.

IF we lynch mafia and IF you don't shoot a town tonight

Granted, you've got to take a serial killer with you part of the way, but isn't that better than giving your larger opponent the edge?

It doesn't really give them an edge, it just takes the swing out of the game.

I could shoot someone who I think is town but is maf. Or one of the scum kills could be blocked/protected. With an SK and a mafia, I'm guessing there is at least one each of RB and Doc. Or a jailer. Or something along those lines. There's infinitely many possiblities; not lynching me (yet) is more optimal. Later, you should definitely lynch me if you're smart.

Are you willing not to kill tonight?

I'll do whatever helps me win. Maybe I'll no kill. Maybe I'll will kill. Depends on today's lynch and how sure I am of who's which alignment
But not killing tonight is a def. possibility.

[ac1983fan]

We're just waiting for tovarish's replacement to come in.
So yeah, if he cc's, he's maf, and Herod just succeeded in pulling an awesome town move.
Otherwise, I feel like porken's been scummy the whole game, and the fact that his willing to give the mafia the upperhand makes him more likely to be mafia in my mind.

[ac1983fan]

how does mafia get "the upperhand"? mafia has the upper hand. its part of the game mechanics. even if you are who you say you are(and i don't think that you are) there is no benefit to keep you around. will someone explain the benefit of keeping around an uncounterclaimed serial killer? i seemed to have missed that somewhere.

The point of the serial killer in a setup is to weaken both the town and the mafia. Lynching me can hurt the town more than it does the mafia at this point. Now granted, I have my own separate win condition which involves killing all of you, but at the same time, I need to kill the mafia just as much as you guys do. And anyways, I'd think that, in a game with a serial killer and a mafia which is mini, you probably have at least one roleblocker anyway, so you can probably stop me from killing.

[ac1983fan]

Lynching me can hurt the town more than it does the mafia at this point.

Explain how, in your own words.

If you lynch me (especially w/o a counterclaim, which doesn't look likely at this point), you'll probably be in lynch or lose tomorrow, with nobody confirmed scum, so you could easily lose tomorrow.

[ac1983fan]

Fair enough. But how would letting you live strengthen the town or hurt the maf?

Letting me live leaves one less person to choose from to determine who's the mafia, which means you have increased odds of hitting a member of the mafia. Also, I may kill mafia tonight (especially if we don't hit mafia today), and keeping me alive could out a mafia member if someone cc's me. Plus, mathematically speaking, the odds are worse for the mafia while I'm alive.

so in either case it seems in sk's best interest to not lynch scum.

Wrong. Say we mislynch today. I will have to try to hit the mafia tonight, otherwise (assuming there's three mafia), the mafia can force a lynch of me and win. Ergo, it is more important to both the town and myself to lynch mafia today.

[ac1983fan]

there is, of course, the possibility that your maf and fakeclaimed. In that scenario, I bet the SK would stay quiet.

Why would the SK not cc? the SK would want to get rid of me also in that situation if he were smart. But I'm the real SK, so any cc is maf.

[ac1983fan]

there is, of course, the possibility that your maf and fakeclaimed. In that scenario, I bet the SK would stay quiet.

Why would the SK not cc? the SK would want to get rid of me also in that situation if he were smart. But I'm the real SK, so any cc is maf.

They would just kill you over night.

They could do that. But what if that failed? A lynch is the only unstoppable (well, almost unstoppable) method of killing somebody. All others can be prevented by roleblocks, protections, etc.

[ac1983fan]

there is, of course, the possibility that your maf and fakeclaimed. In that scenario, I bet the SK would stay quiet.

Why would the SK not cc? the SK would want to get rid of me also in that situation if he were smart. But I'm the real SK, so any cc is maf.

They would just kill you over night.

They could do that. But what if that failed? A lynch is the only unstoppable (well, almost unstoppable) method of killing somebody. All others can be prevented by roleblocks, protections, etc.

so who do you think is the sk?

I am the SK... I was talking hypothetically. I am the SK, not a maf fakeclaiming. Unless that question was directed towards sotty or something?

[ac1983fan]

I agree. In fact Ac hasn't been helpful at all. I mean, he needs us to not lynch him today to even get close to a win. The fact that he doesn't seem willing to not kill tonight is almost enough for me to vote him. I still think there is a strong chance he could be a mafia member as well.

Umm, I said I would be willing to not kill tonight. Right here That doesn't mean that's necessarily what will happen, but I would be willing to. Like I said early, it depends on the conditions when we go into the night. But I do have my own win condition to keep in mind, just getting rid of the mafia isn't my goal.

[ac1983fan]

Acfan, please respond to my post #539, specifically this part:

As for advantages to keeping acfan alive if he is the SK, I'm not sure that I see many. His value to the town is that he might be able to take out scum for us at night, but if he takes out a townie instead, he not only hurts us, he quite likely assures a town loss. Acfan pointed out that it is likely that we have a town roleblocker role and he says that we can block him at night to stop him from killing a townie, but then doesn't that negate his value to us? And is it not also possible that the scum have a roleblocker role and that they could block acfan to prevent him from killing them at night? If so, then doesn't that, too, negate his value to us?

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Jazz

Sorry, I probably didn't respond to it because it seemed like I've responded to the same question before.
First of all, if I'm alive and we choose to try and lynch mafia, the chances of us hitting mafia are changed from 3/9 to 3/8 for today. Secondly, if things are starting to look mafia sided, (ie we mislynch) I can attempt to kill a mafia member and hope that the pro-town roleblocker knows the numbers and that the mafia doesn't have a roleblocker.

I think EA really needs to stop lurking the hell out of this day 2.

FOS: EA

Also, I'm gonna go with me earlier vote,

vote: Porkens

Because his actions before my claim (which I've already stated) and after (like being extremely willing to lynch me instead of trying to lynch maf) make me think he's mafia.

[ac1983fan]

Umm, I said I would be willing to not kill tonight. Right here That doesn't mean that's necessarily what will happen, but I would be willing to. Like I said early, it depends on the conditions when we go into the night. But I do have my own win condition to keep in mind, just getting rid of the mafia isn't my goal.

Yeah I know what you said.

I'll do whatever helps me win.

The fact is you have claimed SK, there is a very small chance you are going to win now. You will be lynched at some point or killed by the scum. If you want to survive today you should be telling us that you will do what ever we ask. You are not. You are trying to stay true to your win condition which while admirable, is a near impossibility for you. The fact you aren't just willing to let the town guide you is another black mark against you.[/quote]
First of all, I'm NK immune, so the scum can't night kill me. Secondly, I have to try and fulfill my win condition, otherwise, what is the point of playing the game? I only claimed because the town and I share a common goal of getting rid of the mafia.

Secondly, if things are starting to look mafia sided, (ie we mislynch)

I can attempt to kill a mafia member and hope that the pro-town roleblocker knows the numbers and that the mafia doesn't have a roleblocker

.

did anyone claim "pro town roleblocker"? how do you know that there is one?

I don't

know

that there is one, but one would think there might be.

[ac1983fan]

But you know what? The more I think about how many Cop, Tracker, and Watcher reports we've gotten today,

What do you mean? nobody's claimed tracker or watcher... And the cop is dead...

[ac1983fan]

What do you mean? nobody's claimed tracker or watcher... And the cop is dead...

Uh huh, so...Power heavy town...not so much.

Maybe there's not any trackers/watchers, maybe they chose not to claim because they didn't have any info? There might be a backup cop, a roleblocker (more likely than tracker/watcher IMO), almost certainly a doc...
Oh, btw

I will be V/LA from friday night to sunday mid-morning, and I will also be V/LA from the 26th to the 29th.

Noted, thank you

[ac1983fan]

First of all, if I'm alive and we choose to try and lynch mafia, the chances of us hitting mafia are changed from 3/9 to 3/8 for today. Secondly, if things are starting to look mafia sided, (ie we mislynch) I can attempt to kill a mafia member and hope that the pro-town roleblocker knows the numbers and that the mafia doesn't have a roleblocker.

That did not actually address my post or the specific concerns raised in it at all. Please, try again, and please address the specific points raised in the post to which you were directed. You seem to have (a) firstly, ignored it, and (b) secondly, tapdanced around it.

No, I was trying to respond to your points as best as I could. Your point was that my only value is to try and kill scum at night. While that is one of the ways keeping me alive helps, if we lynch a mafia today, a pro-town roleblocker (if there is one, still assuming here), would be smart to block me, since on that night, I would have motivations to hit town. But if we do not lynch mafia today and lynch a townie, then the pro-town roleblocker should not block me, because I would be going for mafia. I believe that your specific points addressed those issues, yes?

As an aside, what is with the "ie we mislynch" phrasing of yours?

I need to lynch mafia just as much as you do. Not lynching mafia today hurts me more than helps me.

And why you are now positing the existence of a town role blocker as though it is a given when there is no evidence that this is the case, and dismissing the possibility of a scum roleblocker with the wave of a hand when the latter is just as possible as the former?

I'm not dismissing it, but hoping there isn't a mafia roleblocker. Notice the word "hope". Not the words "I'm dismissing the possibility of a mafia roleblocker".

i just don't see acfan as sk, especially since he doesn't seem to know whether or not he is immune to nightkill.

Is there any pro-town reason for you to want acfan to reveal whether he is immune to nightkill?

i never asked him to reveal. i would rather he didn't, however, when he approached the subject in an earlier post it sounded as if he did not know. i.e. it didn't seem like he was bluffing or avoiding. i will look back for the quote when i have time, but it was something in particular that stood out to me.

The attitude of your posts seemed like you wanted me to. I didn't really think it was important, but I did state in one of my posts... I am night kill immune. And anyway, scum trying to kill me in the night would not help them as much as killing a townie, so there would be no real point in doing it anyway.

acfan: why would one think there might be a "pro town" roleblocker? possibilities are endless, but your statement seemed to exhibit actual knowledge and not just a possibility. your statement says you "hope that the pro town roleblocker knows the numbers", not "if there is a protown roleblocker, i hope he knows the numbers." get it. seems lilke a slip to me.

It just seems like it would be logical to me. That's what I would expect.

For right now, I am going to assume that I am paranoid because assuming that I am sane will have worse consequences than if we were to assume I am sane. At this point in the game, what do you guys think would be best, a lynch today or no lynch? Because we're getting down to it with 3 pro-towns gone. And to my memory, q21 never claimed to be a cop and did not get the chance to investigate, or at least tell us, so that kind of makes things difficult at the moment.

Soo you just made an out of left field cop claim. Why? And also. You should almost never no lynch.

[ac1983fan]

First of all, I'm NK immune, so the scum can't night kill me. Secondly, I have to try and fulfill my win condition, otherwise, what is the point of playing the game? I only claimed because the town and I share a common goal of getting rid of the mafia.

Okay, why are you telling us this? If you kept quiet and we didn't lynch you the scum would have wasted a night kill on you. I also don't like the timing considering the exchange what happened between Hero and Don in posts right before this one.

Because it was being questioned whether or not I was. And because I don't think scum would waste a night kill on me anyway.

I don't

know

that there is one, but one would think there might be.

Why?

Because there's an sk and a scumteam. Because roleblockers are fairly common in normal games anyway.

And anyway, scum trying to kill me in the night would not help them as much as killing a townie, so there would be no real point in doing it anyway.

Your point about the mafia is not true at all. They want you dead much more than the town does, especially when they're ahead. You are a swingy, anti-mafia, killing role. In fact, they'd really like to get you lynched today, because you'd logically be trying to target them until two mafia have died.

But the townsfolk are a larger threat to the mafia then me, since I'm a one-person scum role who will likely get lynched at some point during this game. If they are smart, they would nightkill townies, and, like you said, lynch me.

acfan: why would one think there might be a "pro town" roleblocker? possibilities are endless, but your statement seemed to exhibit actual knowledge and not just a possibility. your statement says you "hope that the pro town roleblocker knows the numbers", not "if there is a protown roleblocker, i hope he knows the numbers." get it. seems lilke a slip to me.

I don't see how it's a slip. This is a normal game, so no scum would start with information about town power roles. There are very, very few ways he could have learned of the existence of such a role. But he's been guessing that there's a RB/Jailer since post 507.

And besides, acfan doesn't have much left to slip. I'd imagine that claiming a scum role must be pretty liberating.

Meh, I guess... I haven't lied at all since I claimed SK, if that's what you mean...

[ac1983fan]

You've put it very clearly Herod, I applaud you.

I certainly am not looking forward to 3 days of Lylo.

I guess our difference of opinion lies in the fact that I don't trust AC not to hand it to the maf.

I wouldn't intentionally hand it to either side. Maybe accidentially (IE killing someone who I think is one aligment but is really another), but not intentionally. But, at this point, it doesn't look like there's much that can happen to prevent my lynch. I've made my case as to why I should be kept alive, and hero has made his case as to why I should be kept alive. If you guys don't mind lynching me and putting yourselves into a hard-to-win situation, go right ahead. Not much I can do to stop you.

Top of page 24 vote count:

ac1983fan 2 (Porkens, don_johnson)
Porkens 2 (Erratus Apathos, ac1983fan)
Erratus Apathos 1 (Herodotus)

Not voting: Jazzmyn, Sotty7, Tovarish, Zer0ph34r,

With 9 still packing it takes 5 to lynch.

Note: this vote count should be accurate as of this post.

Prods: None

Still looking for a replacement for Tovarish and EA.

[ac1983fan]

I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but maybe you can find whatever it is you are referring to. I've reviewed him and not found it. You said that you doubt his claim because he hasn't told us whether he's NK-immune. That implies he needs to state it one way or another to convince you to believe him.

no, i don't doubt his claim because he hadn't told us.

I doubt his claim because of a particular post which i will find for you which led me to believe that he did not know whether he was nk immune.

he seemed to waffle on the subject. i already voiced that i didn't think it should be addressed, but my doubt is very much becaude of something he stated. i find it odd that he is now claiming immunity after we discussed how the subject should be left alone.

I didn't even mention it at all until people started questioning me/each other about it...

[ac1983fan]

If you just doubt his ability to select a mafia member, we could always suggest a target for him via a secondary vote.

I'm open to this.

I'd rather hang now ad let the replacements happen at night. Strictly from a practical point of view.

That is scummy as hell. Wanting to end the day sooner rather than later is anti-town. Wanting to not wait for replacements is anti-town.

[ac1983fan]

I wanted to see who would catch it, it may seem untrue, but I wanted to see who was actually paying attention, and as a result, only one person mentioned it.

And don, I tried investigating killaseven for suspicion of scum. And by the way, does anyone have a suggestion as to who I should investigate tonight?

Why would you investigate a dead player who flipped town? That's why you got the message from the mod saying you couldn't do that.

[ac1983fan]

vote jazzmyn

tl;dr

Seriously though, anything to back that up with?

[ac1983fan]

True, but I claimed to be a cop, just a cop, and I think the message telling me role would've told me that I was mafia, which it didn't.

...but you have no evidence that suggests this, do you?

[ac1983fan]

True, but I claimed to be a cop, just a cop, and I think the message telling me role would've told me that I was mafia, which it didn't.

...but you have no evidence that suggests this, do you?

Oh wow, I totally misread your post. Sorry, my bad.

[ac1983fan]

vote jazzmyn

Well this is certainly new and different.

What's your reasoning?

Nothing more than to be new and different, wondering why the three that noticed my vote (exlcuding jazzmyn because she was the one voted) did and why others didn't.

I noticed it because you gave a vote with absolutely NO reasoning.

vote jazzmyn

tl;dr

Seriously though, anything to back that up with?

I don't know what that means. But no, just trying to get into the game while simultaneously reading. I do understand, though, that jazzmyn doesn't have any other votes on her and that we're not lynch-or-lose or whatever that acronym is. Speaking of...

tl;dr = too long didn't read

But what protown reason is there behind voting while providing no reason?

[ac1983fan]

Testing the waters. And that's exactly it, are you the only one with eyes in this game? No one else caught the fact that I voted with absolutely no reason behind it? Are you the smart guy of the bunch...?

Plenty of people did, we're not idiots...
Most of the people prolly didn't wanna be to redundant...

[ac1983fan]

Don't know why I was prodded, as I posted in this thread that I would be V/LA until today.... I'll read up this evening.

Yeah, I remembered after I sent it, my bad.

[ac1983fan]

unvote

Alright, here's my New Deal®:
I have realized that I will probably not win this game. I will definitely not win if I get lynched today. However, I have come up with a plan that will help the town, hurt the mafia, and give me a very small chance of winning.
A)We will not lynch me today
B)I will do a popular vote to determine my nightkill. Everyone can vote like this:

AC:<name>

, with name being the name of the player you want me to target for a kill
C)I will kill whoever gets the highest number of votes. Votes by dead scum will not count.
D)Unless the game reaches a point where the town cannot win, I will assist the town in victory over the mafia, because I would much rather see the town win than the mafia.
E)If it comes to a point were the town can no longer win, however, I would like it if all townsided roles helped me to win against the mafia.

So what do y'all think?

[ac1983fan]

My dislike for you is mainly and pretty much only because no matter what I say or do, you seem to have some beef with me. And the fluff is that he has not really posted anything involving what is happening with the game and just what he thinks, which is good, but not enough.

You killing whoever has the most votes is assuming that you don't get lynched right? Because I don't think serial killers can kill if they're dead.

I don't have a beef with you, its just that your posts are hard to understand at times.

I know I can't kill if I'm dead, I'm not dumb. You can lynch me if you guys want, but i think my new deal is preferable for all of us who are not in the mafia.

Hmm. I'll have to think about it, particularly since you've already said that you will act in your own best interests, not those of the town. So, I'm not sure why we should believe you now that you will do otherwise.

Regards,
Jazz

This is acting in my best interest, because it looks like I'm prolly gonna be lynched today, which gives me 0 chance of winning. If we go with my new deal, I would have a small chance to win. It just so happens that it helps out the town more than myself. I don't want the mafia to win.

[ac1983fan]

Also Ac, for shits and giggles, who do you think are scum?

Porkens for reasons I have previously stated, and Looker for making horribly scummy posts upon entering the game, although maybe Looker is just crazy.

[ac1983fan]

Ha! You guys are hilarious, but seriously though, are you actually thinking about following through with ac's plan? NO GO!

My plan benefits the town more than lynching me does. Its my only possible way to win, but makes winning for the town easier.

[ac1983fan]

vote:porkens

I am like 95% sure you are in the mafia.
This is my final vote for today, and probably my final vote in this game, since its becoming pretty clear that you guys are gonna lynch me no matter what I do.
Please don't let the mafia win, guys.

[ac1983fan]

vote:porkens

I am like 95% sure you are in the mafia.
This is my final vote for today, and probably my final vote in this game, since its becoming pretty clear that you guys are gonna lynch me no matter what I do.
Please don't let the mafia win, guys.

How are you 95% sure?

Because ZEEnon's behavior was scummy, and because porkens, especially his most recent posts, are scummy as hell IMO.

AC, I don't know why you think that we're gonna lynch you no matter what because don't you only have 2/9 votes vote?

A majority of players I believe have expressed willingness to lynch me. A majority of you seem to have decided to not go through with my plan. So, it seems pretty obvious that I'm going to be lynched and therefore lose.

Top of page 29 vote count:

Porkens 2 (Erratus Apathos, ac1983fan)
ac1983fan 1 (Zer0ph34r)
Zer0ph34r 1 (Porkens)
Jazzmyn 1 (Looker)
Looker 1 (Herodotus)

Not voting: Jazzmyn, ac1983fan, Sotty7, don_johnson

With 9 still packing it takes 5 to lynch.

Note: this vote count should be accurate as of this post.

Prods: Dont have time to check today, traveling will update this tomorrow

Still looking for a replacement for EA.

[ac1983fan]

Because ZEEnon's behavior was scummy, and because porkens, especially his most recent posts, are scummy as hell IMO.

*sigh*

I

replaced ZEE. Porkens replaced Plonky. Does this mean you should be voting for me?

Your 95% fails hard.

Oh fiuck, ZEEnon was replaced in this other game I'm in too, so forgive me for making the mistake too. I still thought that porkens was scummy anyway tho, so my vote still stands.

[ac1983fan]

Because ZEEnon's behavior was scummy, and because porkens, especially his most recent posts, are scummy as hell IMO.

*sigh*

I

replaced ZEE. Porkens replaced Plonky. Does this mean you should be voting for me?

Your 95% fails hard.

Oh fiuck, ZEEnon was replaced in this other game I'm in too, so forgive me for making the mistake too. I still thought that plonky was scummy anyway tho, so my vote still stands.

EBWOP
Also, I just really think porkens is mafia. Simple as that. Gutfeeling combined with scummy posts of porkens and plonky.

[ac1983fan]

whoa, you're REALLY dumb...

Fixed for ya.

[ac1983fan]

The point is you said you were 95% that Porkens is scum. You have made no case and even got confused by the replacements, so in reality you can be no where

near

95%. You should at least try and make a case if you truly believe your statement.

I and others have previously made points against Porkens. I especially don't like his recent tactic of making one or two line posts with little or no meaning. Everything else I've plainly stated elsewhere.

[ac1983fan]

I effed up that night investigating! Btw, does anyone have a suggestion of who I should investigate tonight? [Assuming I'm not lynched or killed.] If not, I'm going to investigate acfan1983 [assuming he is not lynched or killed].

I turn up the same way mafia would, so no point in doing that. I'm NK immune but not inv immune.

[ac1983fan]

Tovarish: Is he still in the game? Lord. I still don't like his defenses of other players but he's not the scummiest today.

I guess I'm not the only one who forgets who replaced who and who has been replaced....

[ac1983fan]

vote: ac1983fan

i think you are mafia. if you have anything else you would like to say. speak now or forever hold your piece(peace?).

I am the SK. I am not mafia. I have done everything I can to try and prove that to you. Good luck town, I really don't want the mafia to win, but you're helping them out here. I wish there wasn't so much flavor in the night scenes... I still feel pretty confidant about porkens...
Now who will hammer moi? Just keep in mind, the mafia have much more to gain from my death then the town.

[ac1983fan]

^^^^ if you really want town to win then this isn't helping. its all about self preservation for you. even if you are who you say you are, you're still scum. that's the problem with this scenario.

I'd rather not have the mafia win, but that's just my opinion. my plan technically would've helped town more than myself, but now, I'm almost certainly going to be lynched and lose regardless. So you do technically get a scum, but you'll be in lylo definite lylo tomorrow.

[ac1983fan]

how do you know its definite?

i am okay if someone wants to hammer.

because in all likelyhood the mafia kill will go through tonight. Maybe not definite lylo, but almost definite lylo.

[ac1983fan]

Well damn. I only thought one of the scum was scummy...
Urgh, at least hero wasn't mafia....

[ac1983fan]

Also, I was not even night kill immune. I lied about that part, because I knew if I didn't say it, scum would prolly go after me for a night kill and I would likely lose...
I really wish I had no killed night one....