Mini 739 ~ Mafia Jailbreak, Game Over

[Korts]

/confirm

bionicchop's onto something here: notice how SpyreX and Rhinox are the two players having a name ending in "x". Obvious scumteam.

vote: SpyreX

Rhinox can wait until tomorrow.

[Korts]

P.S.S.S.S. Huntress, I usually have strong things to say against those who don't random vote in the RVS, which usually ends up being a big argument, and a waste of time. That being said, I'd still prefer to see you random voting...

So why not say them? Don't you agree that serious discussion has to root either in jokes or in theory discussion?

[Korts]

Oh noes, walls of text, my only weakness!

Rhinox, I disagree with you on the issue of random votes. They should be taken just as seriously as normal votes, otherwise any pressure they represent is non-existent, which is counter-intuitive. The power in random votes is exactly the fact that they are in essence the same as any well-reasoned vote, the sans reason part aside. Random votes can lynch, as they should.

I agree with BC on the fact that this discussion is mostly counter-productive, but consider this: in lieu of anything else, do you agree that this line of discussion at least means the game doesn't stall?

BTW I'm thinking that BC is guilty of a very early stage of selective scumhunting.

[Korts]

It is hard to agree with me on something I never said or implied. Could you explain this for me?

Oh, sorry about that. I read the following as what I said:

I don't enter every topic of conversation with a clear expectation on what might be gained from the information revealed.

I was simply skimming that part.

1. Could you explain how my hunting is selective and how the first 2 pages have lead you to this conclusion? Yes I did ask a player for their approach on a specific type of scum, but I am not sure how that indicates no other types of scum are being looked for.

Well, you explained it yourself. You don't look for any scumtells in particular, but what you do is ask a player how to catch SKs.

2. Do you think mafia and town players would have different views and concerns about a serial killer? (I don't think discussing the specifics of perceived differences is helpful at this time, just looking for an opinion on whether differences exist in your opinion).

There's an inherent difference most definitely, I just don't know how distinguishable the two views would be, since both manifest themselves in the same way i.e. practically nothing except possible selective scumhunting from mafia (which is viewed as a scumtell and would therefore be avoided most likely).

[Korts]

And pops posts a long-long analytical post to the effect of an accusation of selective scumhunting. I wonder if that had anything to do with my prior accusation.

[Korts]

Oh. Didn't see the first line of your post there...

Good job, then. Take a look at the Tarhalindur Standard Tells in the wiki, that's where I find most of my inspiration.

Also, posting for the sake of posting? Admitting to it? Shame.

unvote, vote: pops

[Korts]

Don't like this. I didn't have a problem with Korts reading "this discussion is counter-productive" from "I plan on working as many new angles as I can think of, even if it means I might discuss a potentially useless point.", since I inferred much the same thing. So Korts excusing himself by saying "Oh, I skimmed" seems off. He's showing a lack of willing to stand by his statements in the face of criticism, which suggests he wants to avoid attention.

On the other hand, what would you expect me to say if I had actually been skimming?

There are a number of reasons to explain MME... the role PM's say to confirm in thread, thats what his did. Maybe he didn't have time right then to do more, but didn't want to get replaced for not confirming. If MME never posts again, and needs to be replaced, then that means he just flaked and his confirm post doesn't really mean anything. If MME returns, then I would like to ask him why he only confirmed in his first post, then disappeared for X pages/days.

I don't like how multiple people jumped to the defense of MME. First pops, now Rhinox; I smell connections.

Here's a question, Rhinox: if someone posts, and keeps posting, without (randomly) voting yet also without explicitly stating the decision not to vote, would you start questioning

them

?

Regarding self voting, I hate that even more than not voting. Town has no business self voting because the only discussion that follows is whether or not that player is scum for self voting.

I completely disagree. vollkan makes it a point to self-vote frequently early on in games purely because it draws the opportunistic "OMGOSH SELFVOTER=SCUM" comments which are completely wrong. It also draws theory discussion on whether self-voting is good or bad or null; I think it's an entirely valid way to start off discussion if not done simply as a gimmick and without theoretical basis (i.e. Natirasha, UltimaAvalon).

I don't know why Korts is voting me, i thought we were all trying to start discussion. Wasn't he the one saying one can even resort to jokes to get discussion going? I couldn't think of anything funny.

Completely beside the point. If your defense for early game actions is going to be "I was just trying to start discussion" then you are effectively stalling discussion. Also, did you expect not to be called out for posting for the sake of posting when you yourself admitted to it?

Apparently jokes are the only appropriate way of starting discussion Korts. A question for you: A cowboy rides into town on Friday. He stays in town for three days, no more. Then he leaves town on Friday. How is this possible?

I'm guessing Friday is his horse

[Korts]

Friday is his horse.

Is that all you have to say?

Let me help. Did you admit to posting for the sake of posting? Why did you post for the sake of posting? Why did you admit to it?

@Korts: After re-reading BC's post, do you still think that BC acknowledged or inferred that parts or the whole of the SK discussion was counter-productive? Does that affect BC's intention of the selective scumhunting event?

No, I don't think BC acknowledged that anymore. The selective scumhunting point still stands since he was the one who brought the topic of how to catch the SK up.

SELFVOTER=NOT PRO-TOWN. regardless of the theory behind it, I'm always going to vote a self voter, and that does not make me opportunistic scum. There is a clear divide within the community about self-voting, and discussion about it and doing it only widens the gap, and distracts from the true purpose of the game. I'm on the "Town should never self-vote" side, and I play accordingly. Weren't you the one who said...

Anti-town doesn't equal scummy. Why do you think scum would have more motivation to self-vote? What would they achieve by that? If you agree there's no motivation either way, why do you insist on voting for it, since it's a nulltell?

Players who vote by saying "vote: player Y just for pressure" should also be lynched slapped with a raw fish.

This I agree with. But do you really think an anti-town action should be punished with a lynch if it is clear that it is not scummy (as in scum have no more motivation to do it than town)?

But enough with the theory.

------------

Your pops vote stinks of "throwing the book at him looks protown," and since that one questionable infraction you voted him for I haven't seen anything else from you which looked in any way like you're really trying to determine his alignment.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "throwing the book". And by the by "since that one questionable infraction" there has been no relevant posting from him so I really don't see how I could've followed up on the "questionable infraction". You talk like this game has been going on for considerably more time than it actually has, and the focal point you make against me is weaker than my brother's biceps (he's a sociology student for reference).

Also, this: <quote> Is totally bogus. You're either trying to stark a witch hunt on MME, or one of those three players {MME, pops, Rhinox} is in your scumgroup and you're already laying false connection trails to townies.

Alternatively, I believe in transparency and keep my thoughts in-thread instead of in-head.

How valid do you think something like this is in a game of experienced (even the new players are far from ignorant) players? Yes, if you could clearly identify somebody displaying the traits described, it should be considered. By simply having this 'tell' mentioned 3+ times in the first 3 pages we have basically made sure no scum would make the mistake of focusing on a SK. I don't like eliminating opportunities for scum to make slip up.

Ugh. I guess we should stop scumhunting so that we don't uncover more potential slip-ups for the scum.

[Korts]

Not a lot of time; will post tomorrow.

[Korts]

pops, I'm fairly sure you understood my original point and your insistence on making jokes is a distraction. What I meant was that serious discussion usually roots in non-serious discussion, which may be jokes about random voting reasons. But it's obviously necessary to make these jokes at least marginally mafia-related, if only by virtue of being the reason for a vote, otherwise they will never in a hundred years lead into game-related discussion.

Korts, throwing the book as in, your response seemed to be almost automated. "You have made a move that I consider to be standard-scum-play so here is my standard-response-vote!" It was like you didn't even consider the surroundings of pops' post, or weigh whether or not it really hinted at his alignment, you just went OMG SCUMTELL.

And don't you agree that when there's a clear-cut scumtell (jokingly made or not) early in the game, it deserves pressure? It's just as valid a starting point as anything else in this stage of the game. I tried making it pretty obvious anyway that my reaction was only pseudo-serious.

Regarding Korts vs. Pops, I don't find pops' jokes, or the talk about nothing comment to be scummy, but I'm still uneasy about the WIFOM analysis of bio post: especially the part where he said he was leaning more towards bios comments being indicative of mafia because "it sounded like something he would do as mafia"

If you were uneasy about pops' argument, why don't I remember you having the same feeling about my selective scumhunting comment? It boils down to the same thing. You said that selective scumhunting was a buzzword, like pops said, but that I explained it adequately; yet now you say that pops thoroughly explaining this buzzword makes you uneasy?

i'll try to be glass man like Korts as much as possible though.

Is this a compliment?

OGML FoSing without comment? Especially considering how Rishi called Rhinox out a few minutes before him, I think this is a strange move.

Regarding Korts vs. Pops, I don't find pops' jokes, or the talk about nothing comment to be scummy

Also, any suspicions I have of bio (or RC) for continuing the sk theory discussion are currently being overshadowed by pops 82,

and his riddles

.

Did they become suspicious when you decided you could make up a full case?

Good find. Rhinox's answer leaves quite a bit of room for doubt.

Not a lot of time; will post tomorrow.

FOS Korts

I find this post unnecessary and possibly active lurking. You weren't in danger of being prodded and your activity was not in question. This gives me the impression you weren't participating as much as you felt you should be and needed to pro-actively address it. Not exactly a scum tell, but it has a self-preservation feel to it.

Combine this with the fact you are still on the site right now posting in general discussion and mafia discussion. That is time which could have been used to quickly skim and post something of relevance here.

I pride myself in being as active as possible, but I also pride myself in being thorough and answering all points. Any reading up and posting would've taken more energy than I had; note that it was 9:17 PM at the time of that post and I was preparing to go to sleep. GD and MD don't really require much focus. Satisfied?

OGML, what gives you the feeling that Rhinox was ignoring me? I don't remember having unanswered points toward him.

Red's vote on Rhinox is weakly reasoned; he makes a valid point, but I don't see how that indicates anything at all about Rhinox's alignment.

[Korts]

My vote is better served on Rhinox at this point than it is on Rishi (which was originally a RV) or on no one. Do you disagree with that?

No, that's true, if you state only that. My point is that there are far superior cases to be made and have already been. At this point, you putting a vote on Rhinox for a near nulltell smells of you being afraid to commit to a proper case.

I was just in a game where we did hypo(thetical) claiming letting everyone know who we would visit if we were so-and-so role. Everyone did it and we came up with an interesting system for doing so.

I'm not necessarily saying this would be a good idea for this game, but I am saying that we should keep the option open.

I'm assuming we're thinking about the same game. The difference between this game and that one is that that one is a fully open game with roles that are pseudo-investigative in a sense (they die if they target mafia) so claiming targets beforehand can help town. Here, it most likely only gives mafia a clearer picture of who is what role.

Essentially, it's my opinion that forcing the town to talk about the SK may help the mafia

If you concede this point, then what gives you the notion that it's still pro-town to talk about it? There may be some huge benefit to the town that I'm missing, but if you can't think of anything like that either, then I don't see any pro-town purpose in discussing this further. This quoted sentence with the follow-up of "but [...] I think it's good practice to talk about all roles [...] regardless of what day it is" is scummy in the sense that you acknowledge the anti-town effects and decide to knowingly ignore them.

Someone earlier said took a shot at Korts(?) I didn't mean to attack Korts earlier, only his position on what kind of discussion is appropriate early-game. I think at the page content and development of content we were at, my fluffy analysis of BC was appropriate, the way we agree votes not based on much are appropriate early on and the same way, i think, Korts thinks random joke votes and jokes about those votes is good early on to start discussion. But if anyone implied i was trying to attack Korts himself, that's not what i intended and i hope he doesn't feel that way(?)

Sure, I understand. But I felt that you understood my point quite well, yet intentionally misinterpreted it. You know exactly that I didn't mean conventional jokes (or riddles in this case), but rather non-serious reasons for votes.

[Korts]

Why the specific talk to Rishi?

Why mention Korts and username and leave me oddly out, once again?

You know, this is a fairly good point, SpyreX, but it doesn't help you that you pointed it out. To me this whole situation looks like pops tried to avoid having to distance you and you called him out for it before anyone could make the connection between you.

My main points on pops are still that he'd admitted to having committed to a minor scumtell and that he'd deliberately mischaracterised my argument about serious discussion rooting in jokes. In addition there's now an implied connection with SpyreX from his side. I think that sums up the case pretty well.

[Korts]

This post is a placeholder. Will post real stuff after I caught up with more urgent games.

[Korts]

Why does this not apply to you?

Umm, I explained it here as well as in our other game; this kind of posting from me is only so that I don't weasel out in the face of a challenging read-up. I'm inherently lazy and I sometimes have to force myself into working by having the prospect of bringing shame to myself loom over me...

Nevertheless I have to back down on this one. Semester just started and I'm tired. I promise that this game is now the first in line.

[Korts]

It would make sense to lynch someone on the grounds that they are scum period.

So why presume there is a SK or discuss the likeliness of there being one, when scumhunting methods won't differ on Day 1 regardless of the number of anti-town factions?

The town should always necessarily assume they've been given the worst hand, as should the mafia, as should an SK.

You've said this a couple times. Why? Assuming so or not doesn't change anything in the scumhunting process until perhaps near-endgame.

Does an SK necessarily have an easier time winning this game if we are to ignore (delibrately ignore) his probable presence until we can prove, without a doubt, that he exists?

I don't think it would change his chances; and anyway, no-one is talking about deliberately ignoring his possible--not probable, because there is no proof either way--presence; the argument is that there is nothing to discuss in whether we have a SK or not. The factors to take into consideration are unknown and it doesn't further anything to speculate on it.

If we managed to get to Day 3, and by some combination of Doctor saves, double shots, and any other interventional behavior, only one kill has gone through each night, is it then still unhelpful to discuss an SK?

Are you knowingly forcing discussion into something that won't help anything at this point?

What better case might that be? pops for posting riddles? Huntress for "refusing to vote"?

Get with the program Korts. This is Day 1. No "superior cases" are being made. I'm content with voting Rhinox, and I read what you're saying as borderline defending Rhinox by implying that the case against him is any less valid than one already out there.

Ahaha. I was saying that the initial case on which you voted Rhinox was less valid; I'm not sure what the case is at this point. But there were definitely superior cases at the time you voted Rhinox; pops posting for the sake of posting and essentially echoing me, and then being generally unhelpful, in particular.

If I am right about pops and I end up being a mislynch tomorrow for it, fine. 1-1 is alright by me.

I may take you up on that

pops is not a lurker. Spy is anti-lurker. Therefore, Spy is anti-pops. Doesn't make sense does it?

Trying to deflect SpyreX's vote off pops, or trying to attract a wagon on SpyreX? Either way, you are scum and you are hinting a connection to pops. Me not like.

My thoughts--the selective scumhunting that I initially accused Rhinox (I think) of applies much more to Red. He's very much obsessed with discussing a SK, so much that I'm getting the feeling he doesn't want to scumhunt, he wants to SKhunt. Afraid of crosskills, I say. As well as being partly IIoA.

unvote, vote: RedCoyote

(L-1)

XD

Being mafia is, like, a million times as much fun as being town.

Are you having much fun, then, scum?

And seriously guys, WTF is with the hundred-mile pages? Rhinox, Jahudo, Red and Huntress--I'm looking at you.

I'm caught up until OGML's post 195, whose points I'll be answering in a seperate post, and after that I'm getting some well deserved rest--seriously people.

[Korts]

I don't agree that its clear-cut, for one thing, and you make it sound like we can play this game like its some kind of algorithm. A standardized response to a specific action is not diagnostic, and is therefore the perfect move for scum to make.

I don't agree that it was a standardized reaction, particularly.

"At this stage of the game"... whats that mean exactly? Whats the cut off point when the game goes from color by numbers to actually scumhunting?

There is no distinct line to be drawn, but you know well enough that there are very few leads to follow as the game starts up--I took one chance at firing up some more serious discussion.

This is just covering your tracks. Pseudo-serious is incredibly hard to define as it is. Does that mean you wouldn't lynch based on that vote? Or what? And no, it was not in any obvious that the vote was "pseudo-serious."

So if you vote on page two, for the first possible scumtell you notice, are you willing to lynch based on it? And yes, pseudo-serious is incredibly hard to define. NOT QUITE SERIOUS. There is nothing particularly challenging in that thought IMO.

OGML FoSing without comment? Especially considering how Rishi called Rhinox out a few minutes before him, I think this is a strange move.

Define "strange move." Because this feels like a way to just smear me without backing anything up.

This comment is funny because you're trying to "smear me up" for the first non-random vote I made being too "by the book".

My point in calling your FoS strange was that you basically gave yourself a free pass to piggyback on Rishi's case on Rhinox if the wagon gained a little momentum, by implying that it was for the same points Rishi made that you were suspicious of Rhinox. It's not really a good tell but I had a bad feeling about it at the time.

I agree with your point on Rhinox making every attempt at appeal to emotion and buttering up of the whole player list; why I missed that originally, I can only guess (walls of text?).

Ok I'm up to Red's post 199 and I'm K.O.

I'm gonna come back later to finish up...

[Korts]

As much as I hate to do this I can't keep up with this game. Every time I have time to go through recent posts, there's at least one but more recently two pages filled to the brim, and I have neither the time nor the energy to sift through everything. Note that this is nothing personal, but having so many wall-of-texters in a game is too much for me at this point. I'm failing in my studies as it is.

Vi: please replace me. I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

[Korts]

Thanks CF, I owe you one.