Mini 730 - Hard Nights in the City - OVER!

[Juls]

/confirm

[Juls]

Note: Rule 12 is a GAME Day, not a real day. So, it is 1 week.

Good! It did seem a bit harsh if it was a 24 hour period, especially with the lifetime ban.

[Juls]

I personally have no problem with self voting in the joke vote stage. If you do it later it is a bit annoying. Joke votes are to get conversation rolling and I think he accomplished that with his self-vote.

[Juls]

And Juls, you haven't voted yet. Why?

Because nothing has compelled me to vote yet. I was thinking about throwing a joke vote out there but conversation got underway. I don't think don_johnson is scummy for self voting and I dont thing megatheory is scummy for making a huge deal out of it. I am watching and reading and when I get ready to place a vote I will do so.

[Juls]

I took this comment by danchaofan to be a joke based on the little smilie at the end:

Sounds like scum sitting in the background waiting for a convenient wagon... =P

So mega you think this is what I am actually doing? Like I said, I was going to throw out a joke vote but considering the conversation turned serious pretty quickly I thought a joke vote would be inappropriate. Considering I don't think either side's case is scummy I am not going to throw out a vote just to apease people. I would like to have a valid reason for my vote rather than vote just for the sake of voting.

[Juls]

Plum...excellent post...exactly what this game needed to get going.

I have not contributed yet to scumhunting, I admit, but it is more to do with the fact that I find this theory debate extremely ridiculous and want no part of it. I am going to do a thorough reading right now and summarize my thoughts below:

So here are my thoughts/comments/questions/etc/ thus far:

why the what?
i was just asking if he realyl thought me not posting 2 days a week would be that bad?

I find it a bit hard to believe that someone who has played mafia for 3 years has never heard of WIFOM. Perhaps trying to come off as too innocent. Probably a bit of meta is in order here to see his level understanding of the game.

There's nothing like completely skipping the RVS and getting right into the game!

I was just surprised that things got hot and heated so quickly. I'm used to things starting slowly with a little bit of fun random voting. But I see that the methods shown by this group thus far has done a fine job of stimulating discussion therefore - no problem here!

Everything in this post is WIFOM - The use of 'us' is WIFOM, the 'or would they' is WIFOM, etc. But I see you are joking....or are you!

Come on, it is an unofficial phase....I'll answer. Not really. It would put him at two votes. And you would need some sort of explanation as you and mega haven't really interacted at all just yet.

And FYI -

Vote: canadianbovine

BLAME CANADA!!!!

I would just say that talk is most of the time a benefit to the town. But scum can be opportunistic and add to the suspicion of innocent townies, which can stem from too much discussion or fingerpointing from an uneducated town.

Also I would agree that voting is the backbone of the game - how people react to a vote or building wagon on them can be the greatest tell as to what they are.

These are all the posts by insanepenguin. Fairly active with zero substance. I really get a bad vibe about him for some reason. I may have not contributed much until this point but I believe this post is a big contribution. Let's see what you have to contribute penguin?

FoS: insanepenguin02

Don and Mega have started going at each other very quickly, perhaps suspiciously so?

I agree with this. I could totally see this as a forced arguement. Each have made indications they would like it to end but it endures. I am not going to quote all their posts because this post is long enough.

FoS: don_johnson, Megatheory

So...I have three suspects at this point but I want to know insanepenguins' thoughts the most so...

Vote: insanepenguin02

[Juls]

I think Geraintm played it over innocent throughout that whole discussion. His not knowing what WIFOM was, his innocent question of "do you really think it will hurt us that bad?" when he should definately know that lack of contribution on weekends would not be very detrimental. The whole sequence struck me as too dumbfounded and innocent. It may not necessarily be scummy but it is something I will need to look into more to see if he is just that type of person or if he was trying to endear himself to the people in this game. For the record, I don't think anything in there was WIFOM, I was merely commenting on his demeanor when being accused of it.

And as far as my comment on your post goes...I don't necessarily have to agree with everything you say but if you spark a serious discussion then that is what is

excellent

about it.

[Juls]

Hmmm....perhaps this is just a case of not hearing the tone of someone's comments because it is text rather than verbal. I read it another way. If your version is correct, and it probably is, then it is a moot point. I took Nameless's comments about "I hope you are mafia" to be a joke either way because the deadlines will be on Thursday's with 48 hours to get kills in. Thus mafia has to work on weekends.

[Juls]

Unvote: insanepenguin02

The recent posts from penguin are enough to eliviate my suspicions of him but even though Nameless doesn't like the "bad vibes" I am still not 100% convinced he is town. I will keep my eye on it.

I am relatively new but I have been told in the past that making a town/scum list is not a good idea. From what I have been told it benefits scum more because they see what everyone thinks of others and can help them keep around the more suspicious people with their night kills. I learned this because I did it myself. So take that for what it's worth. I certainly don't want to go on another theory tangent about whether lists are good for town or scum.

juls: i believe it is a well earned fos and would be happy to say that if one of us flips scum, town should definitely lynch the other before lylo(if the situation arises). i do understand the inherent risk of the self vote and am more than happy to live(or die) with the consequences. wifomic? yes. but only until my death.

This statement seems strange to me. This is very anti-town. I can only see a scum saying this. If we lynch Mega first and he flips town then you have covered youself because you know he is town therefore your request to be lynched would not apply. If we lynch you first and you do flip scum you are trying to get mega to be lynched next and taking one for the team. I am less convinced you and mega are scumbuddies and more convinced that you are scum. Let's pretend now that you are town. Why would you want to get yourself lynched if mega flips scum? I don't like this at all.

Vote: don_johnson

I know I have more questions to answer from others and more comments to make but my dinner is beeping so I have to go for now...more later.

[Juls]

1) I want to know why you chose not even to throw a joke vote out there?

Because the conversation was serious by the time I read the thread again after confirmations. It was somewhat pointless to do it at that point.

What do you think of geraintm exactly?

After reading Plum's arguement I think I may have misunderstood. See my post #78.

Lastly, I have to agree with you about don_johnson and mega being a "forced arguement". Do you therefore think that they are both scum? If we all find that they are not in this forced arguement, who (if any of them) would you still think is scum or suspicious?

See my post #94 for my current feelings regarding don_johnson/megatheory

She uses phrases like "this post is long enough" when the majority of the post is just quotes, flattery, apologising for noncontribution before this point, or in one case just an agreement.

Ouch. I apologize if you didn't find my analysis of a whole 3 pages (where probably 2 were the don_johnson/megatheory arguement) to be long enough. My comment that "this post is long enough" was because it seemed long enough to me. I am not a big fan of writing books when I post. And it felt longer since I read for a good hour while making that post.

[Juls]

Major stance change without much explanation other than 'oh, I can see Nameless' point here'.

HOS: Juls

I did not think the two acts were solatarily scummy but Nameless presented a good arguement and I could see the suspiciousness of it.

It's funny that your suspicions of me began with this:

Nameless makes a good point about Juls as well.

We exchanged several posts between the two of us before nameless made his accusation. You never once mentioned my lack of substance in my post or that I seemed suspicious. It was only after nameless pointed something out that you jumped in. Seems pretty hypocritical IMO for you to attack me for recognizing another person's arguement when you did the same thing.

[Juls]

I don't care if dan was serious or not. I am. Why is that relevant?

I didn't expect you to vote immediately. What I saw was two players (insanepenguin and yourself) who were posting but contributing very little. What set you apart was your "I'm waiting for something to happen" attitude, which came off as scum rationalizing their lack of contribution. Obviously, chaosomega and geraintm weren't contributing much either, but the two of you really stood out to me

I was stating that I thought dan's comments were a joke and therefore I did not respond to them. That is the relevance in me mentioning his joking. I was commenting on the posts the best I could (stating my opinions on the theory discussion) but until the point I made my analysis of the first three pages post I really didn't have much to say in the way of scummy behavior.

[Juls]

@Megatheory - I realised what I was saying at the time of my post (that we both were kinda in the same boat). I knew I had not posted much in the way of content but I felt the difference was the post I was writing. I also stated I was getting a bad vibe from him. Bad vibes aren't something I can put my finger on...something just wasn't sitting right with me.

Another thing I noticed different about penguin was he seemed to be "chatting" whereas at least I was trying to work my way into the conversation, I just really didn't have much to add to that particular discussion.

And I did look over this question on my first read through, sorry.

Also, I am really not liking Porkens L-1 vote. Even though I don't have warm and fuzzies about ip, I think Porkens bandwagon vote with a claim request so early is suspicious.

[Juls]

I am doing a thorough study of the conversation because clearly I am not conveying myself very well. I want to really formulate my thoughts. I am on about page 3. Unfortunately, I have to study now and I won't be back until tomorrow night late. If I don't get anything up tomorrow I definately will sometime Friday.

[Juls]

Finished readthrough (finally!). A post will come tonight with my thoughts, I just need to turn my notes into a coherent post.

[Juls]

First off, apologies for not posting in the past few days. I have school Mon-Thu nights and don’t get home until after 8. By the time I do dinner, study, and get my daughter to bed I don’t have a lot of time. I did spend a TON of time re-reading and forming my analysis. I don’t really care if you agree with anything I post or not but if you don’t think this is contributing you might as well lynch me now because this is the best I’ve got.

To Megatheory: I respectfully decline your request not to post this (obviously). I can’t comment on the IP situation without fully fleshing out my thoughts on everything else.

This post is organized by name. The only order it is in is the order in which the first posts came in. I am sure a vote is coming at the end of this post somewhere so for now

Unvote.

Also I will fully admit that up until this point I have half-assed this game. I just started a new term and this is my first game back to mafia in a couple months. I am a bit rusty and haven’t been trying very hard. Therefore any suspicions I note in this post supersede any previous noted suspicions.

Geraintm

Votes: Insanepenguin (wed Jan 14)
FOS: None

In post 15 and 17 Geraintm responds to Nameless and Danchaofan respectively when nameless says he hopes he is on Mafia side and DCF says he is WIFOMing. He comes off overly innocent and not knowing (or debatably asking what Dan was referring to) what WIFOM is. I was willing to let this go but then he posted this:

i knew exactly what he meant.
i actually deliberately put in such an obvious line into my post 15, the "you think it will hurt us that much? " just for shits and giggles really. i thought it was such an over the top attempt to appear clueless newbie town it was funny, it wasn't meant to generate a page of discussion about it. i didn't really get why he called it WIFOM, i was expecting him to just tell me off for trying to be so obviously town.

Really? You deliberately did EXACTLY what I was accusing you of and you did it for fun? That seems like a bit of a stretch. I agree with Nameless that this seems like a retroactive excuse (and an unnecessary one and that). I had already agreed with Plum that you probably meant something else. It seems weird you would bring it up again and not just let it go.
I agree with this by megatheory:

I'm still not liking geraintm. His posts reek of unhelpful, low contributing scum. It might be early to make that judgment, but I definitely see a pattern forming.

And finally...you say this:

i generally tend to be slo in placing votes and slow in changing them
i felt at the time penguin was the best person to vote for
i have not found anyone yet who i think is vote-worthy. i am sure there will be something over the weekend to make me change my mind

You leave your vote on him knowing you are going to be V/LA all weekend. This means if a wagon builds on him that your vote could cause him to be lynched. This is at least irresponsible. Why not just unvote?

Nameless

Votes: Dan (fri Jan 9), Juls (sun Jan 11), IP (tue Jan 13), Porkens (tue Jan 13)
FOS: Geraintm (mon Jan 12), CB (thu Jan 15)

I personally don’t get

some

of the arguments against Nameless. Especially the one where he listed his scum-pair. I agree that it could be hurtful in a sense but I see it as not well thought out; not necessarily scummy. What is the difference in FoSing 3 people and doing what he did?

With that being said...this statement by don makes me think a little harder on Nameless.

this is nowhere near omgus. nameless is posting wifom to confuse town. there is no other explanation for posting the things he has posted at this point of the game. my vote stays until you explain yourself logically.

Not necessarily the WIFOM part (cause I don’t see the WIFOM) but he does seem to throw a lot of things out there that could become confusing to town. If you read Nameless’s posts end-to-end he throws out a lot of allegations. I don’t suggest he should have tunnel-vision but it is a bit overwhelming. Three specific examples. He posted several posts that mega seemed suspicious for pushing “weak arguments hard”. Then shortly after a wagon started forming he was suspicious of the mega wagon. In the same context he pushes mega as suspicious and then in post#95 he says too much attention is being paid to mega and not enough to don. Later, he was very suspicious of IP. Then, the wagon got to L-1 and he was suspicious of the wagon.

DanChaofan

Votes: Geraintm (fri Jan 9)
FOS: none

Post 16 – assumedly random (or at least half-hearted) vote?
Post 31 – trying to be witty /joking about WIFOM .
Post 47/48 – theory about discussions effects on town.
Post 49 – agrees with Nameless.
Post 55 – Jokes that Juls is sitting back waiting on a wagon.
Post 66 – response to mega and Juls. Threatens Juls if she doesn’t “scumhunt”
Post 99 – Responds to IP’s questions.
Post 127 – read everything but letting it sink in.
Post 129 – still talking about RVS.
Post 190 – flavor request

I see zero scum-hunting here. Especially for someone who was threatening me in Pos#66.

Side note: I have a feeling I'm being suckered into believing female's innocence. The avatars aren't helping >.<

Please explain that comment.

IP: any flavor on tracker?

Perhaps trying to lead the discussion toward people talking about their flavor and possibly slipping up in revealing their roles.

don_johnson

Votes: don_johnson (fri Jan 9), Megatheory (sun Jan 11), IP (mon Jan 12), Nameless (thu Jan 15)
FOS: none

I still really really really hate this statement:

juls: i believe it is a well earned fos and would be happy to say that if one of us flips scum, town should definitely lynch the other before lylo(if the situation arises). i do understand the inherent risk of the self vote and am more than happy to live(or die) with the consequences. wifomic? yes. but only until my death.

It’s way too early for this comment and it doesn’t help anyone NOW. It only makes you appear to be planting a seed for future days.
Not really liking you and CB talking about setup all that much. It is my experience that setup talk only benefits mafia. That’s just a statement...not very suspicious of it at the moment.

Megatheory

Votes: Danchaofan (fri Jan 9), Juls (sat Jan 10), IP (mon Jan 12)
FOS: CB (wed Jan 14)

Early on you talked about a lot of theory and was pushing don_johnson to see the light and recognize you as being right. Later I think you tried to educate someone else...Atronach I think? (Sorry, I am so tired and I just can’t find it right now). I think that the whole selfvote conversation may have been more about you wanting to feel “right” than anything else.
A little bit of clarification on this please...

I like Danchaofan's reaction to the votes that came his way and he seems pretty townish so far.

Huh? What response would that be? He does not mention being voted for at all. Are you implying that ignoring votes cast against you makes you town? I am fine with the unvote and you vote for me later in this post but the quoted statement makes no sense.

InsanePenguin02

Votes: CB (fri Jan 9), Mega (sun Jan 11) , Chaos (tue Jan 13), Porkens (wed Jan 14)
FOS: Nameless (sun Jan 11), Don (tue Jan 13), Mega (tue Jan 13)

First 6 posts were worthless. Then you followed with your “analysis” (read: question asking) post. I am in complete agreement with most everyone else in this game that voting your third scummiest person is suspicious. And I have also expressed that making scum/townie lists this early in the game help scum with night kills. I won’t beat you down about all this because I think everyone else has done a pretty good job of doing so. Other points about you that I completely agree with are:

-Post 114: Textbook WIFOM.
-Post 132 & 162: Very hostile.
-Post 153 & 156: Your weak attempts to steer the game elsewhere.

I have a suggestion for the whole IP tracker claim handling at the end of this post.

Next, can you resolve these two statements because they seem contradictory:

I do think that you, don, have been scummier than mega overall, HOWEVER I wanted to see some more specific reaction out of mega, thus the vote.

I also state that the only thing don_johnson had posted on was the conversation between himself and mega and that I needed more info from him. I also needed more info from you, the next scummiest in my post (talking to Chaos).

And a little side note. In your big post you kinda admonish some people for not using FoS. FoS is a unofficia/non-mandatory part of this game. Some people use it, some people don’t, some people get mad when you DO use it instead of voting. Lack of FoS’s though is no reason to think someone is scummy.

Porkens

Votes: Nameless (fri Jan 9), IP (tue Jan 13)
FOS: None

Blah blah Blah blah...blah?

Then...post 136 put IP at L-1 and asks for a claim 9 days before deadline.

And christ, I hope someone does quckhammer. that'll certainly give some direction to day two.

This statement insinuates that you know IP to be town and that the hammerer would get backlash from the rest of town in Day 2. I realize this argument is a bit of a stretch but if Porkens turns out to be scum later in the game I want it to be

noted

.

ChaosOmega

Votes: Megatheory (fri Jan 9), IP (tue Jan 13)
FOS: None

In post #29 you vote for Megatheory without a reason. In post #70 you state the reasons you voted for him, but all but one of the quotes you use are from AFTER the time of your vote. You later say that you voted this way because we were in the random voting stage (post #131).

Aside from this you have only targeted IP. You were the fourth on his wagon. Seems like a nice scum position to me (somewhere in the middle...didn’t start it; didn’t hammer). I also think your initial vote on Megatheory could be perceived as trying to start a wagon on a player that put himself out there early and was obviously going to catch some backlash for his attitude.

Canadianbovine

Votes: ChaosOmega (fri Jan 9), IP (wed Jan 14)
FOS: IP (sun Jan 11)

i ask you, IP, why you took your vote off me who you said was a lurking scum, and put it on the bandwagon, on someone who you haven't conprehended as the most scummy in your previous post?

unvote, FOS insanepenguin.

Why did you feel the need to unvote and FOS? Why not vote for IP at this point?

The whole “digging yourself a hole” debacle. I understood what you meant and I feel the arguments using this particular phrase were reaching a bit. I do however find that you seem to be providing filler posts like asking the mod a question, asking newbie type questions like “aren’t scum usually first on the wagon”. I could see where this could be attempts to be involved without really getting your hands dirty.
I don’t like you talking about setup. See don_johnson section for further notes on that.

Atronach

Votes: IP (fri Jan 9), Plum (sat Jan 10)
FOS: don (mon Jan 12), Juls (we Jan 13)

Why hope for the quickhammer? This is already a fast game. The deadline is a week away. Why the preoccupation with a claim so soon?

QFT!

General note: You seem to follow a lot. You followed my lead in post 107 with the lylo comment from don. You later followed plum’s lead in post 169 by calling me wishy-washy. For now this is a nulltell. I would like to see more original thoughts from you.

Plum

Votes: Mega (sun Jan11), IP (mon Jan 12), Juls (jan 14)
FOS: Mega (sun Jan 11), don (sun Jan 11), Juls (mon Jan 12), Porkens (tue Jan 13)

Appeal to emotion, appeal to meta (an illegitimate usage thereof, to clarify); generally bad.

QFT!

General note: I am concerned you might be letting Nameless and Porkens off the hook a little because you have played with them in the past. For instance, I feel you have voted me for much less than what has been noted (and agreed with by you) on Nameless and Porkens. Take it for what you will.

=======================================

My Suggestion for the InsanePenguin tracker claim

I think for the IP tracker situation it should be handled like this. Leave him alive today. If there is a doctor out there, you can choose whether or not you feel he warrants protection. Each day IP can tell us who he targeted and what the result was. I suggest the town notes it and but does not make it their sole reason for voting. DO NOT COUNTER HIS RESULTS CLAIM, IF YOU DO, I WILL ASSUME YOU TO BE SCUM. After we have caught one mafia, we can lynch IP, he will hopefully have served his purpose by then and we will be able to confirm his role. Once he is lynched we will know if his night results were true or not and then we can use them at that point in our analysis. I suggest finding one mafia first because we can be relatively certain there are at least two mafia. So there is no need to lynch IP until we find the other one. Does that make sense? I realize there may be more but if there are only two we will have found the first one and if IP is the second we will get a quick lynch and have either 2/3 or be game over. Thoughts?

=======================================
OK, I apologize for any typos, its 2a.m. and this has taken way longer than expected. I really think the best place to put my vote right now is danchaofan. There are a few others that are up there too but he is striking me as scummy this most at the moment due to his lack of content. Honestly, if IP hadn’t claimed tracker he would be getting my vote right now.

Vote: Danchaofan

(My first ever book-post...I have arived!!!!)

[Juls]

EBWOP: Better yet....maybe IP should not even tell us his results until after we find 1 mafia and are about to lynch him. That way mafia can't pick off people based on his results.

[Juls]

What makes you think Porkens is more likely to be town than Dan? (I would call Dan a reasonable alternate lynch for today, anyway, if only for his unhelpfulness.)

I very much think that Porkens is being as unhelpful as Dan but I am not sure if it is laziness or scuminess. Porkens has been pretty straight about his "I hate day one" attitude. Dan comes off as posting filler which I think is a scumtell early in the game.

You only mention one or two things for each player, often older points and not what I'd consider the most notable. This is probably due to the style of analysis (rather than by events or a serious case against one player).

My goal was not to rehash everything that has already been said but to give some new feedback and get clarification on some things. Some of the agreements I noted were not necessarily "the biggest points" but ones I had something to add to. The post was already so damn long.

Oh wait, that and some examples is it. Yeah, my suspicions of Mega were fairly mild, the way the wagon went worried me moreso (the comparative attention levels of don and mega being part of why). Greater suspicions on IP -> Wagon even more suspicious -> IP's reactions putting him ahead of the wagon again; that his flipping would help analysis the suspicious wagon is a lesser part of why I still think he needs to die sometime. (I do not play Mafia for it's simplicity, no.)

My point on this is that if you throw every accusation in the book on the table you are just making noise. It's not about being simple, it's about editting and posting consistent arguments. I can understand one or two change of directions in your analysis but you seem to be wanting to hit both sides of every argument.

[Juls]

This will likely be my last post for the day as I have guests coming soon. Will catch up on everything tomorrow but to don_johnson, I don't think nameless is quiet as suspicious as you do. Based on what nameless has done thus far in D1 I don't see my vote going to him at this point. As I said I agree that he is muddying the waters with some of his arguments but as of right now I am not willing to say he is scum.

[Juls]

also, why would you assume someone countering ip's results to be scum? that makes no sense to me.

Because if we decide to go with my plan and IP is a tracker then the idea is to keep town powerroles hidden. If he reveals that Player A had a night action and Player A is not scum the only people who know that Player A is not scum are scum and it is good bye Player A. If IP reveals that a scum player made a night action (and again, this is assuming we are using my plan) and then the player tries to counter as a doctor or something then that person is going against the plan so they must be scum.

Furthermore, I don’t think IP should tell us his night results until he is at L-1 because the information he gathers could be on town power roles or mafia power roles (or potential SK/Vig). He is only going to be confirmed by his death so he should be completely willing to die when the time comes in order to further the town’s understanding of the situation.

@IP: This is a team game, you win if town wins not if you are last man standing. You should not have a problem with this.

Excuse the hell out of me for trying to keep the town on task and preventing (for the millionth fucking time) a hastily thrown together lynch. Discussion is going in eight different directions at once. How are we going to decide on this if everyone is talking about completely different things?

Calm down. I think most people agree we should keep IP alive at least until D2. You are being heard. What we should be doing right now is figuring out who we are going to lynch today because we are running out of time.

Mod: I understand the rules to mean we have to have 7 votes on someone or no one is lynched D1 (not just the person with the most votes). Correct?

@ Juls, you say posting filler is a scumtell specifically in the early game because in the endgame there is less to go on ... ? [/Sceptical] Being honest about being scummy (noncontribution, putting someone you suspected was townie at L-1 and lying that you were swayed by arguments ... can we double policy lynch Porkens now?) should not get you a free pass. (Also, see, I'd have thought suspecting and considering everything would be a good thing, but I'm so glad to know that my efforts are being handwaved as "noise".)

I think posting filler is a scumtell moreso “earlier” than “later” because for inexperienced mafia players or ones who do not feel as comfortable in the mafia role have a harder time coming up with original thoughts. Later in the game it is a little bit easier because you have probably found a popular argument and are riding its coattails.

I am with you on Porkens but right now my vote stays on DCF unless he convinces me he is less scummy than Porkens...OR we get to the end of D1 and we have to get a lynch and Porkens is at L-1.

If you want to hammer out what we do with Penguin: Let him live until we have reason to suspect that he is lying about his claim.

IP is doing nothing to solidify himself as townie. He consistently makes excuses and does not scum hunt. If he is townie he is extremely distracting and not useful at all. I see what Mega is saying the sense that if he is not confirmed (by his death) he may start leading us on wild goose chases.

what's wrong with partially directing the doc? this is a team game. again, you exhibit the "loner" vibe.

Don’t direct the doctor. If we start putting out direction to a possible doctor you are broadcasting to scum what town wants to have done. Let the doctor decide if there is one. Lets keep them hidden!

[Juls]

Big FOS: don_johnson

. It seems pretty suspicious to me that you would tell the doctor NOT to waste their power on someone that IP fingers. It seems like scum not wanting a doctor to protect a town power role. Let the friggin doctor decide if there is one. You just directed the doctor after saying no one is directing the doctor. You can direct a doctor by insinuation. If there is a doctor out there, please make up your own mind and do not do anything that ANYONE tells you to do. It may be scum (like don_johnson) directing you.

[Juls]

LET THE DOCTOR DECIDE!!!!!

If the hypothetical doctor decides the mafia is forced to take a chance on an IP night kill and possibly come up empty handed (assuming IP is telling the truth) or focus on somebody else.

Still FoS on don

....

stop leading a potential doctor

. If you do it one more time I am switching my vote to .

also, how do you feel about nameless?

Nothing you have said so far has convinced me that Nameless is scum or SK. I have pretty good feelings about him at this point. I think at best the scumpair comment was irresponsible but not scum-driven and I do think he muddys the water a bit with throwing out every thought in his head but I won't be voting for him D1 unless he does something really scummy in the next four RL days.

[Juls]

also, according to your previous suggestion, anyone countering ip's investigation will be scum? so if ip investigates a town pr and calls them out as scum, they should not counterclaim? so we lynch them(even if they are a town pr) on ip's word? the other option being that if they do counter his investigation we lynch them for "countering"? makes no sense. further, what if ip targets a vanilla townie and paints them as scum. we lynch them on ip's word? or they counter, you assume them scum and they are lynched anyway? i am not seeing how your idea is any better than mine.

I have already responded to this. Me assuming anyone that is countering IP to be scum is contingent on if it is agreed to follow the plan I proposed. If we don't agree to my proposed plan then I will not be thinking someone countering IP to be scum. If we followed my plan the goal of not countering IP's claim is to protect power roles. I EBWOP'd and said that on second thought I would prefer IP NOT reveal who/what he found until L-1 so that scum can't make off with this imformation. I don't think IP is going to be believed until he is dead and proven so there is no need to reveal daily it will just cause confusion and drama and we already have short days as it is.

veiled threats will get you nowhere and do town no good. i am not deciding for the doctor(if we have one). i am not trying to sway the doctor. nor am i trying to decide this strategy for the town. i am simply giving my thoughts on the subject. the fact that you seem to be turning a deaf ear to my entire theory based on the small misconception you have that i am trying to lead the town doctor is brow raising. i'm not going to bother with an FoS.

My "threat" on you is meant to let you know how serious I am. If you are town you should knock it off...If you don't knock it off I will be voting for you. It is something I feel strongly about! And don't tell me it does no good for town because that is EXACTLY what I am trying to do is protect town.

also, what if our "doctor" isn't so bright and needs help? do you suggest we stop talking strategy altogether?

If the things you were suggesting had no effect on what mafia does at night I wouldn't have a problem with it but I would rather the doctor make the decision in secret on Day1!!!!!!!

[Juls]

@Juls:

I personally don’t get some of the arguments against Nameless. Especially the one where he listed his scum-pair. I agree that it could be hurtful in a sense but I see it as not well thought out; not necessarily scummy. What is the difference in FoSing 3 people and doing what he did?

What's the difference between proposing a scum-pair and 2 FoS's?

Huh? Nothing IMO. You asked the same question I asked right back to me with different numbers. Please reask if you meant something else, I don't understand.

Juls wrote:

And christ, I hope someone does quckhammer. that'll certainly give some direction to day two.

This statement insinuates that you know IP to be town and that the hammerer would get backlash from the rest of town in Day 2. I realize this argument is a bit of a stretch but if Porkens turns out to be scum later in the game I want it to be

noted.

We quickhammer scum- thats bound to give direction. A town is quickhammered- the qh is under scrutiny and the rest of the wagon is going to get looked over- thats a nice direction.

My point was that what if someone quickhammered and the lynch was a mafia player. Porkens suggested that he knew IP to be town in that post. After I thought about it though we don't really gain anything from my statement other than maybe if Porkens does turn out to be scum I get to say "yep I knew it". I don't think I would use that assumption to lynch Porkens.

Suggestion: everyone posts a list of people you wouldn't mind lynching.

I don't mind posting 2-3 people but if everyone else follows please don't list your most townie, that only helps scum with their NK.

Who I wouldn't be opposed to lynching: DCF, don, geraintm, porkens

OK so that is 4. I want geraintm's responses to his recent accusations (including mine in my epic-book post). And I also still have not seen anything from DCF to change my vote.

[Juls]

@Danchaofan - It was don and a couple others that had a problem with Nameless naming a scum-pairing. I do not have a problem with it. The only thing I have mentioned having a problem with in regards to Nameless is him throwing out several arguments and possibly muddying the water with "over analysis".

And second, my point with Porkens was that he was inviting a quickhammer to "provide information". If IP is town the quickhammer does provide a little bit to go on but if he is scum I don't think it does provide much information. That is why I mentioned that Porkens may already know IPs alignment. I guess technically if IP were scum and someone quickhammered they "could" be scum bussing in order to end conversation but it is a little less likely. It wasn't my best point I admit. It sounded more interesting in my head than when I typed it. I even said at the time of making it that it was a "stretch" and I further expanded on that in post#282

[Juls]

this could be a miscommunication issue, as i am obviously not understanding her "nobody counter ip's findings" bit,

Answered in post #257 and post #263. But I guess I will answer it again...That is based on

if we used my plan

. The goal is to keep power roles hidden. The hypothetical where IP says:"DJ targetted Plum last night". and to avoid being targetted you say "no wait! I am a watcher!". If you were to do that and we had already agreed to my plan to just ignore IPs claims until he is proven by his death then I would assume you to be scum trying to get out of it.

@All...I realize my follow on suggestion that IP wait until he is L-1 to reveal is risky if he is NK. I am definately open to more suggestions. I need to go back and read MT's again.

-Penguin can only get off the hook if he finds a player who targeted a dead player.
-If that player is lynched and comes up scum, penguin should be lynched unless he finds another player who targeted a dead player.
-This continues until penguin does not find a scum or three scum are dead. At that point, penguin is lynched.
-We guarantee that penguin does not survive until endgame.

OK. So basically we treat him as a one-shot tracker and then if he finds scum he gets another shot. I can go with this. @IP - if you really are the tracker and we go with this strategy please don't lie to stay in the game. Your goal is for town to win, not for you to stay alive.

she has exhibited what i find to be scum tells with both the veiled threat of a vote and her putting words into my mouth.

The point of the threat was to get you to SHUT UP plain and simple. I was trying to give you every opportunity to realize that what you were doing is anti-town and you should cut it out. The more you kept it up the more you looked scummy...and I can't help but notice you STILL continue to talk about it. Not leading anymore but completely keeping it in the discussion when everyone else is trying to move on from it.

also, both her and nameles have rather stealthily worked me into their top three lynch lists

I can't speak for Nameless but I voted you in post #94, mention suspicions in post #224, and then of course there is #259, #261, and #263. That's not stealthy. You weren't top of my list when I posted my long post but you certainly weren't super townie to me either.

i just seem to rank high on both of their lists for my use of the word wifom

Quotes please? The only time I even mention you and WIFOM is when you accuse Nameless of WIFOM and I said I didn't agree that was WIFOM, but nowhere in there did I mention being suspicious of you because your use of the word. I think you have me confused with Plum?

and my persistence in trying to decide on a town strategy to deal with our "tracker",

Read: leading the doctor.

but i am not going to lynch someone for "lurking". not on day 1. it leaves us with nothing to go on.

Good point.

Unvote. Vote Don_Johnson

[Juls]

this is a good idea, however it goes against your plan juls. what if ip tracks a town pr? the only way to know if ip finds scum is to lynch whoever he fingers, right?

According to MT's plan the only way we keep IP alive beyond D2 is he must find someone who targetted the person (or one of the persons) that get night killed. If he doesn't we lynch him. IP will not be confirmed until he dies so he has to die at some point.

if ip targets someone, finds out they went somewhere. we do nothing until ip dies? i don't see how that works to anyones advantage.

My suggestion was we don't use that as a sole reason to lynch someone. I admit there are flaws in my plan as pointed out by others so I am willing to go another direction. I was just trying to put an idea out there, it wasn't meant to be set in stone. I think most agree MT's is a better plan and I am fine with his plan. MT had asked for some solutions so I was trying to give a possible one. My biggest hope is that if IP is the tracker we can still protect any town power roles but it's a difficult thing to do with mafia listening in on the conversation.

i get the feeling you don't like me or something. i get alot of negative emotion from your posts.

As your signature says...I don't know you. I feel though that I have to put things in the plainest of language for you to understand because you are either over analyzing things or becoming overly defensive.

Not game Related: Out of curiousity, why suggest that I "don't like you" when you didn't suggest the same for nameless or megatheory during your arguments with them. Is it because I am female?

[Juls]

i am trying to gauge how much of your suspicion of me is based on what i am saying, and how much is based on you not liking how i am saying it.

My suspicions of you are based on:
1) talking about lylo on day 1 and I feel preparing an escape clause for yourself if MT turns out to be town.
2) being distracting. This is the third "fight" that you have started and have difficulty ending. you and MT had the theory discussion, you had your button/flyer campaign for nameless with few real bites, and now with me, you wouldn't end the doctor discussion despite at least 4 people suggesting it is a bad idea.
3) you were leading the doctor despite being asked to stop.
4) you targetting me in an OMGUS kind of way and the other person who finds you suspicious just happens to be on your lynch list. And the third person on your list is IP which at least 3/4 of us find suspicious.

[Juls]

I notice Juls gives the same Lynch List as I do, which is either coincidental, or indicitive that we are both awesome scumhunters (probably not the later).

I noticed this too but I honestly had no idea what your list was when I posted. I was forming my post during the time you submitted. I did not know your list until after I submitted.

[Juls]

Do people have a friggin post restriction where they have to use the acronym "WIFOM" in every post?

Look folks, we need to start easing our way toward a decision here. We have 3 days left and Day 2 is much shorter. We aren't even close.

Mod: Can we get prods on the following people: ChaosOmega, InsanePenguin02

@IP: If we don't hear something from you by tomorrow I am going to start pushing really hard for your lynch. You have been around the site but you are neglecting this game. People are willing to give you the benefit of the doubt despite every scumtell in the book but don't take advantage of us. Post something of substance ASAP.

[Juls]

Since geraintm is on my list, I will support this lynch.

Unvote. Vote geraintm

NOTE: This puts geraintm at L-1. Please don't hammer until he has a chance to defend/claim.

[Juls]

Unvote. Vote don_johnson

[Juls]

Can someone please tell me why we are so inclined to NOT believe geraintm but willing to believe IP. I think everyone agrees that IP has been beyond useless, very scummy, and he didn't respond to my request that he respond by yesterday or I would push his lynch. And his response was a couple of one liners. If we weren't so damn close to deadline and didn't already have a divided group, I would be pushing for your lynch. And I might just be tomorrow if I am still here.

Next, I am not voting Nameless on D1. I may be clouded by my extreme suspicion of don_johnson but I just see Nameless as more sarcastic than anything and he is muddying the water with his overanalysis or enjoyment of seeing his own posts. If don is lynched and turns up town I will definately take a more thorough look at Nameless. Who knows, he may be playing me like a fiddle.

@Geraintm

, you posted a summary of don_johnson's posts. Was that for everyone's benefit or do you intend to vote him?

Current vote counts for don and namless are:
Nameless (4): don_johnson, Megatheory, insanepenguin02, canadianbovine
Don_johnson (3): Juls, Plum, Nameless

@Porkens - are you going to leave your vote on geraintm or vote for nameless or don?

@Danchaofan - are you going to leave you vote on geraintm or vote for nameless or don?

@geraintm - are you going to vote for anyone?

@Atronach - are you going to vote for anyone?

@ChaosOmega - are you alive? are you there? Did you pick up your prod?

Mod: can you elaborate?

So based on the above it looks like there are 4 active players left to vote/change their vote to get a lynch (and an inactive player). All 4 would need to vote for Don or 2 of 4 would need to vote for nameless (since he said he would self hammer).

EVERYONE: The deadline is tomorrow!

[Juls]

Can I just remind you guys we have got to L-1 twice and had two claims. I would rather votes come sooner rather than later because if some other curve ball comes we need time to adjust. I don't mind a hammer coming on the last day (tomorrow) but I would like to see us have a direction today.

[Juls]

If everyone voting for Nameless or don were to leave their votes on them as it is now, it is impossible to lynch Nameless unless chaosomega comes back. However, don could still be lynched if geraintm and Atronach put their votes on him.

It is now approximately 27.5 hours until deadline.

I'm just saying.

[Juls]

I would prefer a lynch over a no lynch, even if it is Nameless. We need to know some stuff in order to have a direction D2. If you turn up as town I will take a very thorough look at the others on your wagon.

[Juls]

No way to lynch either now unless someone switches their vote. I (and the town)need more information for day 2 so I am going to switch. Note: I don't think Nameless is more scummy but if he flips town and I live through the night my vote will stay on don, no exceptions.

Unvote. Vote Nameless (L-1)

[Juls]

Oh, and I was a nurse.

Do you not think claiming would have better than a self-lynch? This game is a big screw up for town now anyway. The only reason I switched my vote is I felt sure that ALL mafia members would be on the lynch wagon. Since you both claimed vanilla and we were at an enpasse I felt it was the only thing to do. I will be targetting don. He was my gut choice.

[Juls]

Juls, I never claimed vanilla. I stated quite carefully that I didn't have a particularly powerful role, implying that I did have a weak power role. Discarding the game as a "big screw up" from one mislynch isn't helping, either.

Sigh. Misremembering by me. It was don that claimed vanilla. I recall you saying that now. I am not "discarding" the game. I am just upset that we have revealed 2 potential town roles and mislynched a third (if you are being honest which I don't see why you wouldn't be). I should have stayed with my first choice.

Juls has been setting up her reasoning for switching in the last couple posts and that's noted.

I have not been setting up my vote. In fact I had no intentions of switching but out of fear we weren't going to get any information and give the mafia a free kill I switched. I was trying to do what was best for town but I guess it was a bad choice. I knew when I switched it was going to be a good choice or a bad choice; there was no in between. Since I have already dug myself a hole I might as well tell the people I believe to be scum: don, MT,and canadianbovine. I might throw IP in there later but I don't see a connection with him and the others. I will elaborate in D2 if still here (don't have time now).

I understand if people want to look at me as being scummy but please when looking at me take in the whole picture, not just the one chance I took.

[Juls]

Vote: don_johnson

[Juls]

Vote: don_johnson

While I do admire the straightforwardness of this post, I must ask if there is

anything else

you'd care to add to it?

Oh Sorry, yes.

FoS: Megatheory

[Juls]

just noticing this, but from my point of view, if ip is telling the truth(and barring the existence of an investigation immune role), juls would be the only unconfirmed on the bandwagon.

Folks, this is the misinformation that makes don_johnson scummy.

Megatheory is NOT confirmed just because IP says he didn't go anywhere.

It only means that if megatheory is mafia he did not send in the kill. The tracker role ONLY tells you who was targetted and not what action they did. It does NOT tell you his guilt or innocence. Furthermore, NOTHING has been said or done to confirm don_johnson. Please lynch don or Megatheory...I am willing to vote for either.

[Juls]

I will post an analysis after I have heard about geraintm's night actions. I think it is important to know if he used his vig ability or his watcher or ability or neither. And it is important that conversation move fast because our deadline is Thursday. I am disappointed. Let me be disappointed. I will post more after I hear from geraintm.

[Juls]

I am not convinced we have a serial killer yet. I want to know information from geraintm before we go down that path. I feel very comfortable that don and/or mega is scum. I would be willing to lynch them. If I am wrong, then I suck at this game (which I am willing to admit might be the case). I will post an analysis after I hear from geraintm. If he doesn't respond sometime tomorrow I will get something up tomorrow night.

[Juls]

What does "!=" mean?

!= means "does not equal" The ! is often used in computer programing for negation.

[Juls]

I am not convinced we have a serial killer yet.

Why not?

Because if one kill was mafia and the other kill was from geraintm I would be relatively convinced that we do not have a serial killer. I want to know his night action first. If geraintm did not send in a vig attempt then we can explore the Mafia+SK setup. But its useless until I know what geraintm did.

[Juls]

I haven't read anything today. My daughter fell at her daycare and cut her head. I have been at the emergency room tonight and don't feel like messing with it. I will post tomorrow night.

For now,

unvote

, in case anything has happened.

[Juls]

Just got home....will try to have something up soonish.

[Juls]

My opinion about Megatheory has changed. I kinda had a lightbulb moment while reading some of his posts and I think some things make sense to me. I would rather not share unless someone other than don_johnson really insists on it because I think it could be detrimental to town (especially given our current situation).

Now, I am still completely in favor of a don_johnson lynch. He is by far the most scummy.

deadline is thursday. i hate to beat the drum here, but i think a mass claim would help us figure out whose lying.

Don't ANYONE do that...I will try to get a post up about why I think don is most scum soon but wanted to post this in case anyone listens to him!

[Juls]

And just one more comment before I drudge through all this....

93 posts don? really?!?! Thats almost 1/5 of the total posts (including the mod!)

[Juls]

Note post #s refer to HIS post #s in isolation, not the global post numbers.

don_johnson
=============================
Scummy Thing #1:
=============================
We all recall the unbearable theory discussion between Megatheory and don_johnson. But for the large portion of the conversation, neither voted the other. I thought maybe they just disagreed on the merits of self voting or the argument was staged by both of them. But on re-read, I noticed after Plum made her post (the first big shift from the theory discussion) that don felt inclined to vote Megatheory. I think don's motivation in that argument was to make Megatheory out to be scum. If you read the conversation, don prods MT a lot trying to get him to react. Strong reactions tend toward scum. On top of that, his vote would have been second on the list so he wouldn't be accused of starting the wagon and he also saw it as an opportunity to buddy Plum (since she voted for MT). I think this statement proves that he had these ideas in mind at the very least subconsciously:

if mega is lynched he can point to others on the wagon, with me he would be the first real player making the case against me and therefore bear more of the responsibility if i am lynched.

=============================
Scummy Thing #2:
=============================

juls: i believe it is a well earned fos and would be happy to say that if one of us flips scum, town should definitely lynch the other before lylo(if the situation arises). i do understand the inherent risk of the self vote and am more than happy to live(or die) with the consequences. wifomic? yes. but only until my death.

I mentioned this at the time and it still bothers me. I think he knows MT to be town and put this as a back-up plan. He would know that MT would flip town and therefore, in his mind, this statement would clear him as town. Further, if HE flipped scum, it would put enough doubt in our heads that if MT made it to lylo we would lynch him.

=============================
Scummy Thing #3:
=============================
Leading the doctor. I will let his quotes speak for themselves:

if we have a doc, and we lynch scum, then doc doesn't have to protect him. let the mafia confirm him or leave him be.

i am not saying to direct the doc, but agreeing on some guidelines that would help us in confirming our "tracker" would be helpful to town. if all tracker can do is confirm vanilla townies then we needn't waste protection on him.

what's wrong with partially directing the doc? this is a team game.

ultimately, if we have a doctor they are always free to make up their own mind, but in the case of ip, i strongly suggest not wasting the doc's ability on them if, and only if, we lynch scum today.

tracker results, as many have now pointed out, have the distinct possibility of outing a town power role, so protecting said player would be silly in any case, but if we lynch scum today, protecting them is unecessary.

i am saying that the doctors power would be wasted protecting ip, if we lynch scum today. i am speaking in terms of a town strategy, not trying to tell the doctor what to do.

Note: There is more leading in post #39 if you wish to view it for yourself, I didn't want to quote it all.

also, what if our "doctor" isn't so bright and needs help? do you suggest we stop talking strategy altogether?

also, no one has explained why using the doctor to towns advantage is bad.

you say you are so smart, but noone here claims to see the benefit of discussing the doctors(if we have one) role in town strategy.

well if they are so smart then why would you even care if i was leading the doctor? if town is so smart then they would know better. anyhow, the point is moot. i never attempted to lead the doctor, i only sought town's help in developing a strategy to deal with ip.

=============================
Scummy Thing #4:
=============================
Doubting both claimed town power roles. Granted IP is fishier than tuna but he also doubts geraintm in post #52. I am leaning toward believing both of them at this point given that we have all but confirmed either two mafia families or a mafia family and a serial killer. Obviously town would have to have some power roles to counter that. Nameless was a Nurse but that is the only town power role that has flipped. So if we have 3 anti-town roles left it would be logical to think that town would at least have 2, possibly 3 more power roles. But back to don. His excuse for not believing geraintm is weak. His claim that JoaT would have more than 2 based on the word "several" is beyond weak. He further tries to push this argument in post 56, post 57, and he revisits this argument in D2.

And a quote for emphasis...he wanted flavor to determine the EXACT details of the information. This benefits scum more than town:

penguin was allowed to paraphrase. so are you. i suggest you both pm the mod. paraphrase your role pm's and send them to spyrex and let him decide if you are allowed to post. BOTH OF YOU SHOULD DO THIS. why would we have a "tracker" and a "jack of all trades"? reasonable, yes, but until i see some flavour i don't know who i can believe. why do you believe ip?

=============================
Scummy Thing #5
=============================
I don't like that MT suggested a self vig from geraintm but I think that this is obviously an opportunity for scum to agree.

mega's last few posts have been nothing but town to me. their reasoning is solid, and being the first to suggest the self vig gives them townie brownies from me.

Of course he wants geraintm to self vig! That's one less townie he has to pick off. (Dont do it geraintm!). This is not something I see as particularly scummy but annoying is that he admonishes geraintm for not night viging him after that. Oh really? geraintm? The one you don't think is a JoaT.

=============================
Scummy Thing #6
=============================
On day 1 he says...

if geraintm and atronach put their votes on nameless

he has promised to self hammer. whether or not he does would be quite a telling scenario.

so, vote your conscience. a "no lynch" uncovering one scum is better than lynching a townie.

i agree. not to argue, but nameless promised to self hammer. if he doesn't then he is scum.

On day 2 he says...

not only did nameless lynch himself, he did it instead of claiming a role, which if looked up in the mafiawiki is described as a possible "gamebreaker", that role being nurse. nameless self vote was quite possibly the single most anti-town action taken by a player on day 1.

So basically nameless was damned if he did, damned if he didn't.


=============================
Scummy Thing #7
=============================
Please read post #72. In it he restates the points that just because nameless is town doesn't automagically make him scum. The fact that he brings this up in twighlight (and with everything else he has done) makes me see that he is thinking up defenses at all times. Scum tend to think up defenses before they are attacked, not townies.


=============================
Scummy Thing #8
=============================
Requesting a mass claim when we are no where near ready for that. If we lynch scum today we are still in the game. We are not truly in lylo until D3 in my opinion especially with a vig kill.


=============================

Now, I have made my case against don and my vote will stay on him. We ARE two days from deadline so please vote as soon as possible in case last minute craziness occurs. Further, I want to note that don has already claimed vanilla so if he claims anything else he should be lynched on grounds of lieing alone.

Vote: don_johnson

=============================

Some of you have expressed suspicions of me moving my vote. I am sorry but 13 hours before deadline putting someone at L-1 is not too early IMO. I did not hammer. I wasn't sure if I would have access that day as I have 3 classes and work ( I can't access Mafiascum at work). It turns out I did have access that day but it is never guaranteed. I made a bad decision, I wish I had went with my gut. If you read my posts in isolation you will see that I wasn't buying the nameless wagon. I felt though that if we learned nameless's alignment it would give us some insight into D2.

[Juls]

Damnit! I meant to include one more thing:

Happy Birthday Mod!

[Juls]

Good point, I had forgot that ChaosOmega was goin to get modkilled. That could be very unfortunate or good depending on his alignment. That being said, I thnk we have to lynch today because the numbers aren't any prettier:

Assuming 2-Mafia, 1-SK, 6-Townies

Scenario 1: lynch scum

Night Kills: 2 townies die
Modkills: ChaosOmega
D3:
2 scum types, 3 town types (if CO is town)
1 scum type, 4 town types (if CO is scum)

Scenario 2: lynch scum

Night Kills: 1 townie dies, 1 scum type dies
Modkills: ChaosOmega
D3:
1 scum type, 4 -townies (if CO is town)
Note: This scenario is not possible if CO is scum

Scenario 3: no lynch

Night Kills 2 townies die
Modkills: ChaosOmega
D3:
3 scum types, 3 townies (if CO is town)
2 scum types, 4 townies (if CO is scum)

Scenario 4: no lynch

Night Kills: 1 scum, 1 town
Modkills: ChaosOmega
D3:
2 scum types, 4 townies (if CO is town)
1 scum type, 5 townies (if CO is scum)

Scenario 5: lynch townie

Night Kills: 2 townies
Modkills: ChaosOmega
D3:
3 scum types, 2 townies (if CO is town) - Game Over
2 scum types, 3 townies (if CO is scum)

Scenario 6: lynch townie

Night Kills: 1 scum, 1 townie
Modkills: ChaosOmega
D3:
2 scum types, 3 townies (if CO is town)
1 scum types ,4 townies (if CO is scum)

Note: I realize there are additional situations with a vig kill but that list would grow too large. These are the most general scenarios.

The only way the game is guaranteed to be over is if we lynch town, two townies are killed at night, and CO flips town. This list was done quickly because I have to go study so I apologize if I missed something.

[Juls]

I am going to bet on town not being stupid enough to believe your last attempt at discrediting me. Yet another weak (scummy) argument. In the two quotes you "love", the first is me answering to the questions that have been posed to me since my last substantial post and that was why I switched my vote. I was ANSWERING a question, not thinking up defenses before I was attacked. There is a huge difference.

and you did let my quotes speak for themselves. they are all even toned, well presented ideas. not once do i directly address the doc, nor do i imply that the doc should take any action i am suggesting without town's approval. by the time i got to the end of these quotes i really don't see how you could think i'm scum. but whatever...

I believe you said somewhere that you are an English major. I find it hard to believe you don't know the difference between leading and directly addressing. You were "leading" by making suggestions. How can you not see that?

see the bolded part of "scummy thing # 5? that's juls "directing" the "vig". the only person who can make ger self vig is ger. why are you so worried about me?

Are you serious? Why am I worried about you? Because you are doing scummy things! My comments doesn't imply that because you told him to do it he is going to do it. My comments are the fact that you took an idea from MT that could be townie (the jury is still out on that one) and you rode it because it benefits you. Further, hell yeah I directed ger not to do self-vig. What motivations would I have to do that as scum? Further, I believe his claim and therefore I don't want him to waste his vig power on trying to prove himself. He just explained his flavor in his most recent post (or the one before?) and it is reasonable.

I am going to make a request and a claim here.

I am a vanilla townie

. If you guys don't lynch Don today, please lynch me...because until I get rid of Don, I will not be able to concentrate on anyone else because I believe him to be scum.

[Juls]

I don't think we should vote IP. I tend toward believing our claimed town-roles. I think that IP got pissed off because people were calling him scummy and he lost interest in the game.

[Juls]

DCF...we are less than 24 hours from deadline...do you intend on voting?

[Juls]

So we have a serial killer, two townies, and one mafia left. I don't see how there is any other way. There wouldn't be a game with only one mafia and if there were two left it would be game over right now. So I know I am vanilla, and I believe Geraintm. That means that Danchaofan is a mafia roleblocker (since you pretty much just admitted it) and Atronach is the serial killer.

Now that geraintm has used both his night actions we are essentially vanillas. The only thing that is left to do is kill Danchaofan. Although, he could be framing Atronach too. Regardless, I think it is clear who the scum is and who the townies are. I will wait to vote until I hear from geraintm.

[Juls]

I am not kidding you. It is reasonable to think with only 2 mafia that both of those mafia would be power roles. The serial killer doesn't need an extra role. He has the ability to KILL people. You are just trying to get Atronach lynched instead of yourself because you know that if the SK gets killed than it is a win for mafia. My vote will be going to DCF as soon as I hear from geraintm.

[Juls]

Atronach I think you should claim your role.

[Juls]

Then please put your vote on DCF. I will go ahead and vote too then all that will be left is geraintm to vote when he comes back on Monday.

Vote: DCF

[Juls]

Yeah, I have no idea what you just said DCF.

[Juls]

Unvote

Unvote for now so I can think on this and get geraintm's opinion and get clarification from the mod on something.

[Juls]

DCF, you lieing about your role just makes me want to give the game to Atronach. I will give you one more chance to fully claim your role. You have nothing to lose now except the game.

[Juls]

I have no doubt that we are NOT 3/1/8 because if there were two or more mafia today the game would be over. Mafia typically win when they comprise 50% or greater and also if there were 3 they would just lynch the serial killer and win. If there were two they would force a no lynch.

I have been thinking about it and if town is to win it's out of our hands. And the only way to make that happen is to no lynch.

Vote: No Lynch

If this is the wrong answer then sorry to town but it's the only way. I have been throwing around in my head this is the only way I can see.

[Juls]

Who cares? You and I are townie. Your interest should be in US winning. If that situation arises or does not, ask that question after the game.

[Juls]

We need to just no lynch today. There is no way that I can see for town to win by lynching either of the remaining two. If we lynch one, then the other will be back tomorrow against one townie and therefore win. We have to hope they kill each other in the night, but if we lynch one, we hand the game to the other.

[Juls]

why are you asking the SK for advise? I really don't understand?!?!? Unless you 3 band together it is going to be a no lynch. I am voting no lynch and it requires 3 to lynch. Those two are not going to go together because they WANT to kill each other. So please just vote for No lynch so we can go to night.

[Juls]

Just so you know, any more information that is discussed MAY reveal to the other two things that they have not yet thought about. It is better to cut off conversation and let them figure things out on their own on the chance that they have not figured it out yet. But if you want, by all means continue talking.

[Juls]

Because you win in that case! You win when you make up 50% of the town. DCF's best bet is to kill you in the night and take a shot that you kill a town.

[Juls]

Well I will say this...it's going to be a no lynch today. If I make it to day 4

(And I propose geraintm do the same)

, then it will be one mafia, one serial killer, and one town left. The townie (me or geraintm) will give the game to the one that DOESN'T kill town.
@geraintm: Atronach's flavor is just "shot" and DCF's is "shot and beheaded".
@DCF: If you don't kill Atronach tonight then you will lose in a tie with him.

[Juls]

wait... so what prevents me from role blocking mr. mafia and killing one of the townies?

You do that and I will guarantee (if I am the remaining town) that you will lose the game because the town will have to vote for the winner. DCF, you are not going to win this game. It will either be town or the SK. It's your choice. You can either give the town the game by nightkilling Atronach or you can give the serial killer the game by taking his alliance or roleblocking him and killing a townie. The choice is yours. (

geraintm, lynch DCF tomorrow if you are the only townie left

)Personally, I think you should reward town for figuring it out and overcoming all the bold personalities in the game. What did Atronach do? Fly under the radar...good job lurker. And he is trying to trick you into him winnin the game. At least I am being honest with you...I am telling you I am trying to get the win for the town...but if you are the one that kills town then you shouldn't get the win.

All my cards are on the table. The choice is for DCF to make. Please vote no lynch geraintm so the day will end!

[Juls]

So then all thats left is for DCF to decide who he wants to give the game to. Why don't you just vote no lynch and we can be on our way to finishing it.

[Juls]

Atronach, do you know that No Lynch is actually a valid vote. I know you are somewhat new, just want to make sure. Most games require only 50% to vote no lynch to actually have a no lynch. In other words, we don't have to go all the way until the deadline for it to take place. If you want talk to continue that is fine, I just wanted to make you aware of that.

[Juls]

OK Dan, you keep up your end and we will do ours.

[Juls]

Yeah, I was never keeping that deal....but thanks.

Vote: DCF

Geraintm...do the same and town wins...still not sure how we pulled it off?

[Juls]

FoS: Spyrex!

[Juls]

I suck at scumhunting but my negotiation skills worked! I had more fun on the last two days than the first two. I was really upset that I jumped on Nameless and then disappointed that don turned out to be town because I felt so sure he was scum. I think now that don may just be one of those personalities that appear scummy all the time (I don't mean this as an insult...I get this read a lot as well).

A few other thoughts / comments / questions:
-

Spyrex

: awesome job. Even though we lost our doctor to modkill I still like the idea of no replacements and one week deadlines if it is known to everyone in advance.

-

Nameless

: I knew you were town, I just couldn't put it into a tangible argument for towniness and I was too scared to commit to that position (although I toyed with it) because I was scared if you were scum I would be the next lynch. You never said it explicitly but I assumed your role was backup doctor-like?

-

don_johnson

: I do not dislike you in any way, shape, form or fashion despite what you may think. I just felt like you were doing scummy things and was calling you on them. This is my first game I have completed so I am still learning a lot and I probably need to fine tune some tells...I will get there with experience.

-

atronach

: It is completely not my personality to say what I said about you being a lurker. I did not believe that at all when I wrote it. I was trying to present you as someone who didn't play very hard so DCF would give the win to us. It was just a gambit, not how I felt. I hope you don't dislike me because of it. One question, why did you claim serial killer instead of scum when we had the scum/town distribution figured out?

-

megatheory

: when I had my change of opinion about megatheory I did because I thought he was the doctor. I didn't think the mod would send a comment to him that said he was knocked unconscious in the night unless he had a power role and when kinda going through the roles in my head I felt it was logical that he was the doctor.

-

dcf

: I put you between a rock and a hard place. You really had few options but I think had I been in your position I would have taken atronach's deal and took a shot at the win condition being in your favor. Or, I would have killed a townie and tried to beg the other one for forgiveness. The way you did it, you had to know we weren't going to give it to you.

-

porkens

: I had you pegged as serail killer. I don't know why really but i kept thinking we could get to you later. Glad geraintm took a shot at you!

-

geraintm

: good vig kill, if you hadn't done that it would have been game over. On the last day I was trying to get you to hurry up and vote no lynch so if DCF and Atronach didn't have things fully figured out they would have to do it alone and not make a deal.

-

Plum

: You did well. You got the game rolling and I got pretty good town vibes off you. I think you got killed N1 because they knew DJ and I would fight it out amongst ourselves and they could lay low on D2.

-

IP

: You really seemed scummy. I believed you but you really went about it all wrong. You shouldn't have gotten so mad when people questioned you and then you pretty much checked out of the game after that. It was annoying and antitown. You held a powerful role for us, we needed you!

-

town in general:

We tried hard to lose it. I almost lost it for us with my voting alone. I was glad I could redeem myself in the end. We had our doctor as a modkill, our nurse self hammered, our tracker was scummy (sorry IP), and our JOAT flubbed one of his one shots...lol. It was certainly an interesting game.

-I would really like anyone/everyone to give me advise on how I could play better. I tried hard but I know I made mistakes. Please be constructive with your criticism though, don't just bash me cause you don't like me. I want to improve.

[Juls]

Nice play, Juls~

Thanks!