Mini 730 - Hard Nights in the City - OVER!

[Danchaofan]

/confirm

[Danchaofan]

two to confirm and me and gera just in'd so I guess so.

nope
you think it will hurt us that much?

why the WiFom?

vote: geraintm

[Danchaofan]

just a note to all. i don't really post at weekend

I really hope you're on the mafia's side.

nope
you think it will hurt us that much?
i just don't get access at the weekends, the other 5 days i am pretty good thouhg. the onyl other problem i sometimes have is i amin the UK and so time zones can get out o synch.

anyways, are we all in yet?

The implication is from nameless is that gera is on the mafia side, to which gera respons something about 'us'. This is wifom as surely no mafia would imply that they are mafia. Or, would they? =P

Current serious level:-25%

[Danchaofan]

discussion does not always help town i.e. excessive discussion that makes town's head spin...

The implication is from nameless is that gera is on the mafia side, to which gera respons something about 'us'. This is wifom as surely no mafia would imply that they are mafia. Or, would they? =P

Current serious level:-25%

I saw his use of "us" to mean "the town." You're really grasping at straws.

RVS votes tend to grasp at straws?

[Danchaofan]

d'oh preview =/= send...

[Danchaofan]

Mega is pushing very hard for early, weak points. He's also placing vote/lynching under general discussion, and his idea of scum being more sensitive than town to votes is bad (I'd say a player's personality would have has much impact and townie power roles would be as sensitive anyway). Suspicious, and that's not a question this time.

I want Megas response to this. It seems to be a good point.

[Danchaofan]

And Juls, you haven't voted yet. Why?

Because nothing has compelled me to vote yet. I was thinking about throwing a joke vote out there but conversation got underway. I don't think don_johnson is scummy for self voting and I dont thing megatheory is scummy for making a huge deal out of it. I am watching and reading and when I get ready to place a vote I will do so.

Sounds like scum sitting in the background waiting for a convenient wagon... =P

Sparking discussion isn't the reason for giving a reason while voting, it a) can convince other people that the person voted for is scum and deserves more votes b) reveals poor logic or possible scum motives making the voter a candidate for scum.

[Danchaofan]

Unvote

I like Danchaofan's reaction to the votes that came his way and he seems pretty townish so far.

I think I'm at two votes? I think it's rash to judge someone's reactions based on two votes.

@Juls: It's a joke, but if I don't see scum hunting, eventually, I'll be serious.

[Danchaofan]

1) Random vote with crap logic. I haven't developed any suspicions, gera isn't in lynch territory, I'm too lazy to use bold tags.

2) Interesting question, nothing substantive appeared to me though, yet.

3)

MOD: When is deadline

. I'm willing to wait longer to see how activity translates to scumminess.

4) I don't see them as votes as honestly I think they are caused by a miscommunication regarding my first vote.

My first vote was a "random" vote. Sorry for the lack of any indication that it was not serious. My second post also was "random" I tried to indicate by the emote and the "current serious level: -25%".

Call me dcf please =)

[Danchaofan]

ehhh I don't need the mod question.... I looked up the first post and forgot to delete =/

[Danchaofan]

it's not megatheory, it's megapost... unexpectedly unable to use the computer since my last post so I just caught up reading and allowing thing to si

[Danchaofan]

SoC needs quote tags. Other than that good stuff. (summaries are helpful). I think I've clarified that the crap logic in my first vote was for RVS purposes. I think I also misinterpreted what gera said which might have lead further misinterpretation of what I said.

Side note: I have a feeling I'm being suckered into believing female's innocence. The avatars aren't helping >.<

if i were to assign each player a number and then roll a die to cast my vote "randomly", i would have just as much chance of landing on myself as any of you. to insinuate that a self vote in the rvs is any more or less informational or beneficial to town than any other random vote in the same stage of the game

before

ensuing discussion reveals any relevant information regarding players alignments is bad logic.

I don't think RVS should be completely random. But, let's NOT get into a big discussion.

[Danchaofan]

v/la friday to saturday/sunday night.Not sure how that works out with regard to time zones, I'm in China FYI.
IP: any flavor on tracker?

Megatheory states there are no cops in this game (from flavour NPC kills). He also states that scum must be on IP's wagon. I find both these statements overly sure and dubious.

How/why is the first overly sure and dubious?

Unvote: Insanepenguin, Vote Juls

.
I've noted Juls doing some questionable things in previous posts and she's now about my second scummiest. Probably would like to get to a reread of her and perhaps Mega later. For now, I think that's a fine place to put my vote.

people already don't like people voting their thrid scummiest. now you are voting only your second...

Your scummiest has claimed powerrole with nothing to indicate that the role does not exist or that he is not what he claimed. Do you still intend to lynch?

[Danchaofan]

got back last night, did my newbie game first since I thought it would be the easiest to read through then I had to go to bed and school. Re-reading now =)

[Danchaofan]

EBWOP: reading now...

[Danchaofan]

@Juls:
1. I feel I'm more likely believe a female is innocent and have less problems with pegging another male as scum.
2. Discussion on flavor? I just wanted to see how IP's tracker fit into this whole apocalypse flavor thats going on. If he said his role pm just said, "you are a tracker, you get to see what people do at night, you win with town", that would be suspicious, no?

Thoughts on tracker:
I think MT's theory works but I'd be willing to extend his life given good behavior

If he's really a tracker, and given 3 scum, and no town visiting roles, you're giving him a 75% chance of

not

fulfilling your criteria and getting lynched.

Assuming only one mafia does the killing wouldn't it be closer to 11/12 chance of not fulfilling MT's criteria?

[Danchaofan]

Does IP, possibly being in a scum team that possibly has a tracker affect MT's or Jul's plan?

Mod: why is "The Are Juls really from the Devil Votecount:" not bolded?

Why, what are you talking about?

I think we need a lynch, IP and I are the wagon leaders (admittedly only at 2 votes per >.<) which is bad since I know I'm town and IP is an uncc tracker. So, anyone that I'm (for now) ignoring everyone that is giving me a remotely town vibe (plum, porkens, nameless) and IP and me and will proceed to "scum hunt". If on re-read I come off with a town vibe, that will be noted and for now they will be added to my ignore list.

@Juls:

I personally don’t get

some

of the arguments against Nameless. Especially the one where he listed his scum-pair. I agree that it could be hurtful in a sense but I see it as not well thought out; not necessarily scummy. What is the difference in FoSing 3 people and doing what he did?

What's the difference between proposing a scum-pair and 2 FoS's?

And christ, I hope someone does quckhammer. that'll certainly give some direction to day two.

This statement insinuates that you know IP to be town and that the hammerer would get backlash from the rest of town in Day 2. I realize this argument is a bit of a stretch but if Porkens turns out to be scum later in the game I want it to be

noted

.

We quickhammer scum- thats bound to give direction. A town is quickhammered- the qh is under scrutiny and the rest of the wagon is going to get looked over- thats a nice direction.

more later...

[Danchaofan]

@ Plum- In reading a bit of the Mafia wiki, I probably should have FOSed and not voted you. With that in mind I'll unvote for now; there are people I find much more suspicious than the people Ive felt were lurking.

There wasn't really the follow up detailing your suspicions at the time that I would have wanted. Your following posts seem to jump around hunting one person at a time (juls and dj). I don't feel a solid connection between your cases or you following up any suspicions or actively perusing a lynch. I'm going to move on to some other people and come back to you to see how it fits in with others sentiments at the time.

I was not at all suspicious of the "why the what" until this post, it is disingenuous to say this was to try to appear like a noob when your start date is right underneath your avatar. This smells...like scum.

I don't follow the logic. I'd rather have gera respond first though. I think the other points seem solid.

[Danchaofan]

Suggestion: everyone posts a list of people you wouldn't mind lynching. We can resort to this as a an alternative lynch if no one is able to convince a significant audience for your first choice lynch. i.e. if there 7+ agreeing that someone is okay for a lynch (but not necessarily the best person to lynch), we can stack some votes on this and someone can hammer at deadline if we are unable to come consensus for a better candidate.

Coming after atronach's post gera seems fishy. I can acknowledge that I'm hypocritical in chiding gera for a lack of substance (I seriously thought I was more active here, I must be confusing my content level in this game with another). However, I do think in gera's case it's more sever considering his join date.

[Danchaofan]

I'm going to take a quick break and look at another game. Bovine, Don, and MT seem to have a lot of posts and that entails possibly too much time for tonight...

[Danchaofan]

Before I go to bed:
I'm not too sure where from. I'll read him (and my other town candidates) after reading my scum candidates to see if the town vibes are warranted.

@nameless: I (still) didn't see how Juls made the conclusion that porken's statement implied that he knew IP's alignment. From what I understand, Juls implies that a qh would only give direction if and only if IP is town. However, I wanted to point out that a qh could give direction regardless of IP's alignment. In hindsight I probably should have allowed Pork to comment before jumping in.

@Juls: If I remember correctly you are of the belief that discussing scum pairs D1 is bad, so if you parallel D1 discussion of 3-scum-groups to 3 FoS's and say it's not so bad, then what's wrong with comparing scum pair speculations to 2 FoS's and saying it's not so bad.

@don: discussion of what the doc should do gives an idea to maf who the doc will protect giving them a better chance have a successful kill. Not good eh? Announcing in twilight doesn't help as mafia still get to make use of the information albeit marginally less time to contemplate the results. Please post a list of people you wouldn't mind seeing lynched.

[Danchaofan]

@Danchaofan - It was don and a couple others that had a problem with Nameless naming a scum-pairing. I do not have a problem with it. The only thing I have mentioned having a problem with in regards to Nameless is him throwing out several arguments and possibly muddying the water with "over analysis".

I see you never commented on the whole, "I don't like D1 scump-pair speculations." I thought you had taken the stance that D1 speculation into scum pairs is bad.

Your following posts seem to jump around hunting one person at a time (juls and dj). I don't feel a solid connection between your cases or you following up any suspicions or actively perusing a lynch.

You are going to have to do a lot to convince me that I should have been seeking a lynch on those two that early in the game. I do not find pursuing lynches is as useful as pursuing scum that far from deadline.

I just felt your posts seemed to be testing the waters. When they didn't get much attention you just moved somewhere else. Also, I'm looking at each player's posts in isolation so I lost track of where we were at the game. Perhaps it wouldn't be the right choice of words to say "pursue a lynch".

[Danchaofan]

Ok, looking over old posts isn't helping much everything has been mulled over and as a newbie I think I'll have a particularly hard time reaching new insight. So, I think I'm going to try and look over more recent posts.

Gera, you haven't made any attempt to scum-hunt. Again, your last post is all defense. You can begin by listing your top 3-5 (or more if you have more suspicions) of who you think is scum and why.

[Danchaofan]

Gera, you haven't made any attempt to scum-hunt. Again, your last post is all defense. You can begin by listing your top 3-5 (or more if you have more suspicions) of who you think is scum and why.

porkens, gera, please...

[Danchaofan]

can you post a list of players your wouldn't mind lynched? Your suspicions entail bovine, chaos, penguin, mega?

[Danchaofan]

Atronach - i forgot he was in the game for a long time, he seemed under the radar to me
then he pushed an attack on me, i am not sure if he really believes all he has written. the things he has one me, i would never consider them scummy on someone else

Although, you still haven't acknowledged the fact that you don't seem to have scum hunted much.

dan - "IP: any flavour on tracker? " this one line i noted and liked. makes me think he got some flavour in his role and was hoping penguin would have something similar. this might be something tiny to go on, but i buy dan as town

This feels like someone trying to out a power role >.< I never said I had flavor in my role. I ONLY specifically mentioned in the apocalyptic flavor of the OP.

penguin -if scum, then picked a good role to claim.

This comment just feels odd...

juls - seems ok, done decent posting, gotten really sidetracked with the tracker thing.

Do you think discussing what we should do with our tracker is beneficial?

vote: Geraintm

[Danchaofan]

To clarify, who do you suspect most? Who, if at deadline and you couldn't get your most suspect person lynched, would you settle with as a reasonable lynch?

[Danchaofan]

meta answer: I'm pretty sure the JOAT role can have whichever powers the mod chooses..

side note: If IP and Ger are both telling the truth, and there are in fact two trackers...is it possible there could be 2 vigs?

Outing power roles a bit much?

I don't believe Gera. Partially because of the redundancy and partially because 1 tracker result is easy enough to fake and a SK or mafia could easily sacrifice 1 nk. I also don't trust Gera to follow the tracker discussion that he decided was worthless to realize that IP is under serious consideration for lynch even if he just hits one tracker result wrong, and IP isn't a 1-shot tracker.

so MT doesn't mind lynching nameless, don, or ger? I'm not reading who CB or porkens (still) would like to lynch.

[Danchaofan]

so MT doesn't mind lynching nameless, don, or ger? I'm not reading who CB or porkens (still) would like to lynch.

I do NOT want to lynch ger. If you would pay attention, you would notice most of my last post is devoted to arguing

against

his lynch.

don or Nameless should be lynched today.

Sorry, I probably had some of the names jumbled up. It was a rush post this morning before school started.

@nameless: I'm not done reading don and mt so I'm not sure who is lynch worthy. Right now I'm okay with a CB lynch, don or mt may be added depending on how my read goes.

[Danchaofan]

EBWOP: realized porkens also answered too... I'm not posting in the morning anymore... way to sleepy too =/

[Danchaofan]

Since geraintm is on my list, I will support this lynch.

Unvote. Vote geraintm

NOTE: This puts geraintm at L-1. Please don't hammer until he has a chance to defend/claim.

L-2 actually... This is leading to confusion, but IMO an honest mistake.

I feel this is very important. Plum was pinging my scumdar all last night. I'll try to examine these issues more closely in my reread.

I'm interested since I have still yet to read up on my "town-vibe" people

Atronach - i forgot he was in the game for a long time, he seemed under the radar to me
then he pushed an attack on me, i am not sure if he really believes all he has written. the things he has one me, i would never consider them scummy on someone else

Although, you still haven't acknowledged the fact that you don't seem to have scum hunted much.

dan - "IP: any flavour on tracker? " this one line i noted and liked. makes me think he got some flavour in his role and was hoping penguin would have something similar. this might be something tiny to go on, but i buy dan as town

This feels like someone trying to out a power role >.< I never said I had flavor in my role. I ONLY specifically mentioned in the apocalyptic flavor of the OP.

penguin -if scum, then picked a good role to claim.

This comment just feels odd...

juls - seems ok, done decent posting, gotten really sidetracked with the tracker thing.

Do you think discussing what we should do with our tracker is beneficial?

vote: Geraintm

This is nothing but a bandwagon jump. If I understand correctly, you are voting ger because he isn't acknowledging his poor scumhuing. He hasn't before, why would he now? This is bad investigation. You're hung up on this one issue and aren't looking at the rest of what ger has posted in any kind of serious way. I can't tell if this is a scum move or bad town play.

No, I was suspicious of Gera prior to that post, my vote was latent, we were close to deadline. I have looked at Ger's post. I felt he was probing for town power roles and he is only now dismissing the whole tracker conversation.

meta answer: I'm pretty sure the JOAT role can have whichever powers the mod chooses..

side note: If IP and Ger are both telling the truth, and there are in fact two trackers...is it possible there could be 2 vigs?

Outing power roles a bit much?

I don't believe Gera. Partially because of the redundancy and partially because 1 tracker result is easy enough to fake and a SK or mafia could easily sacrifice 1 nk. I also don't trust Gera to follow the tracker discussion that he decided was worthless to realize that IP is under serious consideration for lynch even if he just hits one tracker result wrong, and IP isn't a 1-shot tracker.

why don't you believe me?
if i had made my claim first, without penguin's claim of tracker, would it have been more believable?
what would you do if i come up dead with the exact role i have described?

I find the tracker more believable then your joat. I find your joat not believable regardless of whether there is a tracker revealed. You don't need to wait to come up dead, I know that I am fallible, I know it is bad to outguess the mod, but I still don't believe you.

[Danchaofan]

o wtf? I was still looking at nameless's 377?

[Danchaofan]

#359. I've already clarified Don's misinterpretation of strawmanning. Don is obviously defending Mega in this post rather than let Mega answer for himself, but doesn't actually correct my suspicions or do much else than accuse me of strawmanning, again. (First it was wifomic, I take it this is Don's new pet word to throw around.)

Asking a townie to self vig is not, under any circumstances, a good idea.

It loses the town a member for exactly no benefit, and Don giving Mega "townie brownies" for this (what I had assumed not to be serious) seems either a mindless agreement, or WORSE if Don had actually thought about it first.

As for "muddying the waters", my "wildly popular" remark might have tipped you off that the comment was at least partially sarcastic.

Otherwise, apply my entire previous explanation.

first: the funniest thing about this is that you refer to geraintm as a "townie". no one here is a confirmed townie. saying this is a scumtell. the reason behind self viging, which by the way is an approved protown strategy, is to confirm someones alignment without a mislynch. you apparently already know geraintm's alignment. how could that be?

scanning simply because I have to go sleep now, but... a vig isn't town?

"Either he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working, or he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon."-MT 360


writing shameless doesn't exactly get you townie points either. I haven't read up that much on nameless but I'm not liking don enough to

unvote, vote: don

[Danchaofan]

no. a claimed vig is not a "confirmed" town. nameless paints gera's alignment as definitely town in order to make one point, and then paints gera's alignment as if its in question in the very next paragraph in order to smear mega.

please, i don't care if you like me, but your sabotaging town if you don't pay attention. your reason as a vote is probably the absolute worst that i have heard. read and then vote, not the other way around.

Oh I pay decent enough attention when I'm not asleep. Scum/sk can't self-

vig

. Under most situations asking a

vig

to kill himself is bad, barring the situation where a lynch for confirmation is not possible and the vig self-vigging won't swing the balance to scum due to the extra nk.

MTs wording seemed to be pretty clear that "

Either

he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working,

or

he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon. Unless you can suggest an alternative scenario with evidence, then the best play is to lynch one of you." i.e. one possibility is NL is scum and don is town, the other is that NL is town and don is scum. There are no other possibilities, unless you search the thread and come up with evidence. He neglects the possibility of 2 scum parties, 2 towns, partners busing, etc. Furthermore, he uses burden of proof to further suggest that none of these other possibilities are possible.

And yes, reasons mentioned by others seem more convincing then the arguments against nameless. Do I need to repeat them so that you can repeat your rebuttals and we can exchange a few wall posts?

Does IP and CB in 368, 9 seem like any more convincing reasons to vote?

I'm only bothering to answer this because "please, i don't care if you like me, but your sabotaging town if you don't pay attention. your reason as a vote is probably the absolute worst that i have heard." preturbs me. I'm going to check MT for rebuttals because in my scan I think plum and MT debated this line. Besides, NL is already lynched.

[Danchaofan]

(I'm assuming it's okay to do speculation in twilight? Otherwise ignore this post.)

Oh, and I was a nurse.

Do you not think claiming would have better than a self-lynch? This game is a big screw up for town now anyway. The only reason I switched my vote is I felt sure that ALL mafia members would be on the lynch wagon. Since you both claimed vanilla and we were at an enpasse I felt it was the only thing to do. I will be targetting don. He was my gut choice.

I'd rather look at MT especially if NL turns up town. I did notice some of what NL said about MT that appeared scummy. IF NL turns of scum I'll look into it lightly however if NL turns up town, I think it will be interesting to read. Plum seems like an obvious partner for NL if he does turn up scum. They seem to share a lot of train of thoughts etc. Although it could equally be because they seem to have played a (few) game(s) in the past together.

[Danchaofan]

BTW I give up looking for the crumb... I suck at these kinds of things... =/

[Danchaofan]

MTs wording seemed to be pretty clear that "

Either he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working, or he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon. Unless you can suggest an alternative scenario with evidence, then the best play is to lynch one of you."

i.e. one possibility is NL is scum and don is town, the other is that NL is town and don is scum. There are no other possibilities, unless you search the thread and come up with evidence. He neglects the possibility of 2 scum parties, 2 towns, partners busing, etc. Furthermore, he uses burden of proof to further suggest that none of these other possibilities are possible.

i have explained this once and everyone else seemed to get it, so herein twilight, i will explain it again for the slow kid in the back:

i will break this down mathematically. mega is saying this

player a is either scum who saw a case not working, or a town who caught scum but became discouraged.

everyone seems to be turning this into an equation: Quote:
if player a is scum then player b is town. if player b is scum then player a is town.

this is not logical. there is no statement of player b in mega's speculation. you have to realize that in the case in which i might be scum, the case i dropped is because it is not working. not because player b is town. player b could still hold an anti town role that is not necessarily aligned with mine. mega's speculation is about me, not nameless. he suggests we lynch one of us because of this scenario and because he believes nameless to be scum. does that help?

No, MTs statement breaks down into a) a is town, b is scum b) a is scum, b is town. With no other possibilities, unless "you" can find sufficient evidence that there is another case. Your quote conveniently misses the "Either" which MT originally had. Otherwise, I would probably agree that your interpretation might be valid.

Yes, we are now at 5 to lynch so can we please wait for IP and gers's actions. I think following what NL said we should take a closer look at MT (I'm in the process right now).

Why is Don still calling NL to be anti-town, c'mon the mod 1) ffs already told us he was a nurse, and 2) self-hammering is bad in the whole entire "we're having a discussion we don't have a deadline." Given how close we were to deadline a self-hammer to ensure no no-lynch is perfectly viable imo. (that said, I still think he should have let antr or gera to put votes in)

[Danchaofan]

(that said, I still think he should have let antr or gera to put votes in)

I did vote. Only gera did not. D1 was rough, but I think we can get something out of it. I'll take a day to do a re-read of D1 and have a post with some conclusions. Hopefully we'll have gera's results by then.

Sorry, I just remembered your initial indecision and forgot about your vote.

No, MTs statement breaks down into a) a is town, b is scum b) a is scum, b is town. With no other possibilities, unless "you" can find sufficient evidence that there is another case.

you are completely wrong here. mt never states why player "drops" the case. mt never states that b must be scum. you are wrong. i am not going to argue with you.

Your quote conveniently misses the "Either" which MT originally had. Otherwise, I would probably agree that your interpretation might be valid.

i do not miss the either. either i am scum and dropped a case that wasn't working(no mention of why). or i am town who has caught scum. mt's theory is that i am either scum or town. it does not directly translate into nameless' alignment.

Ok, so based on the wording of the first statement, it allows for 3) a is scum, b is scum. But, the implication of MT's statement still is if either flips town, the other is scum. Which is convenient for mafia if both nl and don were bickering townies.

if the rest of the wagon was town, it is reasonable for juls to be just what she claims: confused town. porkens, though frustrating, is at least consistent. their vote on me could simply have been "hey i like nameless better." dan wasn't even paying attention to what was going on yesterday. and today he is arguing logic with me. also, i believe his whole "why is don still calling nameless anti-town" to be strawman. focusing on something that isn't terribly relevant to the issue at hand. if ip is telling the truth that means that not only did nameless lynch himself, but he did it with a lot of town help. can anyone honestly deny that nameless' self hammer was in any way protown? he may have thought it was, but it very plainly wasn't. to argue this makes no sense to me.

Are you still seriously saying I wasn't paying attention yesterday? One post was made while I was half asleep in the morning and your using it to generalize my entire play?
I'm arguing logic with you because my main candidate for scum is MT. So how the logic of his statement works out when my interpretation of it is very convenient for a scum is quite relevant to the day's discussion.
And you going on about how "scummy" a dead townie is 1) distracting 2) convenient for a scum who is going about how "good" a wagon is. I think I echo Juls sentiments in saying that I'll be okay with either IP or MT, I think I'll have a tendency towards MT once I finish my re-read.

In adition to that, while I belive you're right in that the argument could be a strawman; I just wanted to remind you (all) that

being wrong != scummy

.

What does "!=" mean?

Suggestion about trackers: perhaps, if our tracker tracks someone who went out and they did not target a dead person, we have the tracker lie and said that they did not go out at night? Assuming mafia have a role-blocker or something, then us assuming someone that went out a night and did not kill is a town could prove fatal, meanwhile the knowledge that someone did go out and is not part of the mafia makes our power roles vulnerable to attack, pegs some people as vanilla and the mafia will still have an easy time at picking power roles. If we ever decide to string up one of our trackers I think we should then ask because if there is a possible mass confirmation of townies than we can possibly more easily avoid mis-lynches...

[Danchaofan]

we're at 9, we can honestly expect to be at 4 tomorrow, 1 lynch, 2 nks from last night, 1 nk from gera, so uhh yeah lets scum hunt............

And you going on about how "scummy" a dead townie is 1) distracting 2) convenient for a scum who is going about how "good" a wagon is. I think I echo Juls sentiments in saying that I'll be okay with either IP or MT, I think I'll have a tendency towards MT once I finish my re-read.

I see you as equally guilty of prolonging this argument, which I do find distracting. I dont see how what Don said was wrong- he said that Nameless did not do all that great a job as town, which is hard to argue with. He isn't saying that somehow magically saying Nameless was actually mafia, and its a bit of a stretch for you to keep perceiving it as such.

Juls is advocating a don or MT lynch, not an IP one. Why would you be for an IP or MT lynch after all you've said about don?

No, I'm not arguing about NL's scuminess (which would be distracting), I'm arguing at the possibility of Don being scum and brushing off suspicion of campaigning for a wagon that lead to town. Typo sorry- I'm looking over don and MT right now. IP and MT doesn't really echo Juls.

Suggestion about trackers: perhaps, if our tracker tracks someone who went out and they did not target a dead person, we have the tracker lie and said that they did not go out at night?

How would we be able to trust the people we think are trackers? If we could trust one, what is the point of lying now that you've brought it up in game? Anyone they peg as 'did not go out at night' is now vulnerable to scum suspicion that they are power roles.

We only need to trust our trackers if they track someone that targets someone that got nk'd. The point of this is to protect our power roles. If someone goes out and they did not nk: they are either a townie power role or a mafia role other than the killer, or a third party (i.e. sk). The mafia know who has roles among them so it is logical for them to target anyone who targets someone that is not killed (as they are most likely a town power roles). Anyone who does not go out at night and is not mafia the mafia would likely assume is a vanilla (or pgo or miller or commuter). So, in order to protect our power roles it makes more sense to not reveal them. The second portion is unlikely as I don't think we will be lynching any of our claimed powers, however if we do, it makes sense to attempt to clear people. That said, if we have any claims from role who target in the future i.e. vig, doc, watcher, whatever, we should and a nk'd IP tracked them and said something inconsistent (they stayed home), we shouldn't rely on IP to convict them iff we go ahead with this plan.

Also, when did you become so certain that both our role claims were telling the truth? Earlier, you flat out said you didn't believe Gera:

I don't believe Gera. Partially because of the redundancy and partially because 1 tracker result is easy enough to fake and a SK or mafia could easily sacrifice 1 nk. I also don't trust Gera to follow the tracker discussion that he decided was worthless to realize that IP is under serious consideration for lynch even if he just hits one tracker result wrong, and IP isn't a 1-shot tracker.

Yes, I'm still weary of both of our "trackers". I'm a little more believing of gera as a watcher though. I still wouldn't mind seeing some kind of confirmation. i.e. scum kill one =).

MTs wording seemed to be pretty clear that "

Either

he is scum and dropped a case that he saw wasn't working,

or

he is town and caught a scum, but became discouraged too soon. Unless you can suggest an alternative scenario with evidence, then the best play is to lynch one of you." i.e. one possibility is NL is scum and don is town, the other is that NL is town and don is scum. There are no other possibilities, unless you search the thread and come up with evidence. He neglects the possibility of 2 scum parties, 2 towns, partners busing, etc. Furthermore, he uses burden of proof to further suggest that none of these other possibilities are possible.

You keep harping on the specific wording of this one point, but you aren't looking at the whole situation. I posted that don or Namless should be lynched, then Namless comes along and heaps dirt on me but doesn't address the reasoning in what I posted. At that time, I thought it was highly likely that he was scum, and when he posted what he did, I thought he was just ensuring his survival and limiting his liability by protecting don. I posted reasons to believe that lynching one of them was the best play, and Namless suggested that it was equally likely that they were both townies but he didn't provide any reasoning behind it other than that it was a possibility. So, thinkin that he was scum, I insisted that he provide some kind of evidence that the two of them were townies.

(we're talking about nameless right =P) Let's assume two town are seriously debating. And both are under close scrutiny for lynch. Mafia can subtly put forth a statement that one or the other has to be scum. Come day 2 and one of the lynchee flipped town. The mafia pick up the other wagon (which had to have evidence if both were in consideration for lynch) and continues under the premise that one of the two had to be scum. Thus, the mafia ensures two mislynches. Meanwhile someone comes along and says, "hey, what if these two guys are just two townies" Your line, puts burden of proof to find evidence that BOTH are town. There may not be evidence, both townies probably had scummy actions due to them being lynch candidates, but, the possibility is discredited due to lack of "evidence".

Can you go back and find where NL said it was "equally" likely that they are both town. I don't think NL ever protected don. NL's posts seem fairly confident that don is scum but concedes the possibility that both NL and don are town.

[Danchaofan]

@Everyone- I understand Lylo to mean you must lynch scum or lose the game that day? I think that we'd only be in that state tomorrow, and that's IF we cant catch scum today. What am I missing?

I'm pretty sure lylo can mean continually lynch scum or loose i.e. 5 alive 2 scum barring anything fancy, if scum are lynched 2 days in a row, town wins, any other scenario and town looses.

[Danchaofan]

unfortunately, i don't think choosing his target is a good idea yet. if i had to choose now, i'd say me or himself. right now, i'd rather lynch him. until he starts contributing to the scum hunt and stops avoiding logical protown discussion i see no reason to believe his claim. also, mega's predicament implies the existence of a mafia roleblocker which could block ger, or serve as a convenient excuse for ger if he is lying.

Why are you quick to assume a scum roleblocker? This might be the case if we are 2/1/9 but if we're 3/1/8 I think a town rb is more fair.

[Danchaofan]

happy birthday SpyreX, sorry keep forgetting to say it

[Danchaofan]

I was preparing a post responding to Don and was going to vote him, but porkens posted, IP hammered, and the day ended. My points are rather moot now though.

We are most likely at 1/1/2 or 2/1/1... Gera is confirmed in my eyes, Juls has claimed vanilla. I don't mind claiming, I'm role blocker, MT night 1 because I thought he was scum and might send in the kill, night 2 I blocked IP because I thought he would be scum after IMO a really fishy hammer...

[Danchaofan]

Oh if you really must know I'm sk with role blocking role. Mafia godfather + roleblocker vs. a lonely sk? You've got to be kidding me... And if it comes down to it, I'd rather see the town win then the mafia so yea........ I'm not sold that Juls is town... I want to see what atro posts and going to take a little time to re-read...

[Danchaofan]

*sigh*

BTW, mafia has the ability to kill people, except they get two "lives" whereas sk only has one "life" Throw godfather into the mix then we see that mafia has a definite advantage over SK. SKs commonly have a kill immunity or nk immunity. In this case I was given a roleblock. Atronarch is definitely the last mafia so

vote: atronarch

.

spyrex I hate you and your fance smancy rules that are getting me into trouble- definately never claiming rb+sk again =P

[Danchaofan]

I'm SK with a rb ability.

Atro is mafia

Gera is town

Juls I'm leaning town simply so 2/1/9 makes more sense

Sk is like a 1 man mafia group, so that it is balance I'm given a slight stronger power (roleblock) than mafia (god father and goon assumed)

I dislike spyrex for giving me a unique secondary sk ability =P

so if you want mafia to win vote me, if you want sk to win vote atro (or juls or gera).

[Danchaofan]

Juls: All you need to worry about is that I'm anti town, I can kill (specifically I behead stuff) and I can role block.

This is going to assume atro/me are up in the air Juls, gera is town.

With that in mind let's make a wager- let's no lynch!

If you think I'm mafia rb and atro is the sk I'll rb atro and kill him atro kills me. I should be alive and atro should be dead tomorrow morning. Juls and gera should still be alive and you guys can lynch me because I'm a lying scheming mafia =)

However, if I am as I claim, a role blocking SK then when atro pops up dead tomorrow as a mafia then town lets me win =) ok... you can still lynch me but that wouldn't be in a gambling spirit.

unvote

If you guys accept my little wager, vote no lynch, I'll do the same later...



But before we do that, I want to get gera's opinion: The mafia have had what is quite possibly the easiest game, the sk hasn't cross killed, the the doc obviously was never active and mod-killed day 2, and the nurse was lynched day 1, yet, assuming, godfather-goon, the mafia have no way of winning this... So, don't you think it's far more likely to have a 3/1/8? Now, from your point of view it should be clear that either me or atro is the sk. Juls is up in the air and you are town.

The most likely scenario for a 3-man scum is juls-atro-pork, where juls and atro are probably goons (any pairing involving me is most likely null because it should be pretty clear that to the who the sk is my rb role is used by the scum then the sk is stopped from killing at night- If the mafia have a power role as well i.e. in the vein of rb or nk immunity where they can stop my kill then they pretty easily win). But the problem then is that town have no way of winning. If we no lynch and I stop the mafia from killing me, and kill another mafia we go 1/1/1 tomorrow except I can role block the mafia and we'll be at 1sk and you... town looses (if I don't rb the mafia the first night the mafia kill me and it's 1/1 and you loose). If we lynch one of the mafia then then I can role block the other but then tomorrow is just me and you, and you still loose.

If you have no other JOAT abilities then you cannot win in a 3/1/9 So what the mod said would be false (we'll assume it can't be) so we cannot be in a 3/1/9 therefore we must be 2/1/9 and you and juls are town and of me and atro one of us is sk and the other is mafia.

Still if we find it hard to believe that scum are so close to loosing in the near perfect game that they have had then the remaining mafia probably has some role besides a kill- I'm guessing something along the lines of nk immunity or maybe rb (and the sk should have something in that vein as well). In either of the cases we should still no lynch today and we kill each other tonight- except we can't. So we convene tomorrow all of us alive and then you can choose to lynch between atro or me. (if the mafia have any other role i.e. tracker, watcher or something it won't matter, I'll kill the mafia tonight =) )

If Juls or gera has any other possible scum team in mind point it out

If you still think we started 2/1/9 then we go with no lynch and see what happens tomorrow =)

[Danchaofan]

In summary, if town wants to win and thinks we aren't 3/1/8: no lynch. If town thinks we're 3/1/8 I'll look through the possibilities as to what we should do...

[Danchaofan]

wait... so what prevents me from role blocking mr. mafia and killing one of the townies?

[Danchaofan]

My flavor is behead (seriously since when is mafia behead?), atro is shot, gera was shot.

I'm blocking atro... sorry don't trust you mate.

Now honestly town you haven't played that amazingly although part of the problem stems from the fact that your doc ended up mod-killed. But I'm still not to happy handing you the town. And, due to the nature of the game I don't want to hand it over to the mafia. And seeing how I was the first to post the possibility of no lynch I think the town should make a little wager with me. Juls thinks I'm a mafia roleblocker so let's make the little bet that I posted earlier.

If you think I'm mafia rb and atro is the sk I'll rb atro and kill him atro kills me. I should be alive and atro should be dead tomorrow morning. Juls and gera should still be alive and you guys can lynch me because I'm a lying scheming mafia =)

However, if I am as I claim, a role blocking SK then when atro pops up dead tomorrow as a mafia then town lets me win =) ok... you can still lynch me but that wouldn't be in a gambling spirit.

This is of course assuming atro isn't a roleblocker or has some nk immunity or pgo. If that is the case we can discuss tomorrow otherwise how about it town?

[Danchaofan]

vote: No lynch

[Danchaofan]

It's cool beans. =P

[Danchaofan]

I figured I could claim town rb and get away with it... ended up claiming scum.

After that I couldn't think of any way to win and given the way the game started I felt it would be absolutely hilarious if town won and mafia didn't so I went with the town =/

I was making kills on people I felt had a higher chance of being scum... that failed miserably =/

[Danchaofan]

mmm I just remembered tossing up role blocking mt and killing atro N2 because of some random process of elimination thing that I did... damn... really regretting that =/