Mini 730 - Hard Nights in the City - OVER!

[Porkens]

/confirm

Nameless, Plum, good to see you again

nice avatar Juls

[Porkens]

Self voting is ridiculously stupid. It accomplishes nothing positive for the town and provides no information that we can use to determine your alignment. Knock it off. Seriously. Don't try to defend this boneheaded action or you will just be risking getting yourself lynched for no benefit whatsoever.

sorry, i thought we were in the random/joke vote phase.

unvote

funny. it is "ridiculously stupid" and has "no benefit", yet you use my self vote to show your towniness.

just to be clear: have we moved past the random/joke vote phase?

1. The last sentence in Megatheory's post says to me he's assuming/knows you're town, too.

2. "Are we out of RVS?" -

ahhhh, a question for the ages.

Vote: Danchaofan

who is clearly looking for an excuse to vote somebody rather than correct them. Or is he just HOPING for a townie to be modkilled

Correcting them?

What

is this? A Newbie game? Can't we assume that everyone has read and understood the rules using their own god damn faculties?

And how do you know Ger is town, anyway?

You know what, don't even bother answering. Lynch this man.

vote: Nameless

[Porkens]

FWIW:

IMHO:
Self-Voting is anti-town but not a scumtell.
Discussion

is

good for town, but a

gross

of discussion can have negative effects on the town.

[Porkens]

Okay, hold a moment. I'm all for harassing lurkers, but let's put this into perspective here. At this time of this vote, the game had been started for all of ~30 hours. Jumping the gun much?

Wow nice Cainstrawman defense there Mr. WIFOM. omfg. Happy with my vote.

[Porkens]

Ok, this officially is out of RvS

unvote

I'll do a better read and get some thoughts out. soonerish.

[Porkens]

Porkens: 4.5
1) PLEASE post more. You have 5 posts but little content. If you are town, this is bad play. If you are scum, this is a tell IMO.

With this extended Day 1, I'm not really worried about posting like crazy. Day 1 is usually dry to me until it's time to look back at it, anyway. I will make an effort to contribute, and I appologize if it seems like I've been ignoring you guys.

2) why do you feel that mega suggested that he and don_johnson are town? What was there specifically in mega's post that brought this to your attention and made you think to bring it up to everyone? What do you now think of them and their arguement?

The tenor of his "teaching" voice, to me, assumed that the scummy behavior was just bad play. It didn't seem to me that he was even considering the possibility that his "student" was town.

3) Why were you so hellbent for a little bit on lynching Nameless? And why wouldn't you want him to answer?! No matter the result of that lynching, we would have been working off of NO info and that makes it seem very scummy IMO. You seemed very certain but now, without any info about it, you changed your vote. Why? Was the first vote random, as you would almost suggest in your last post? This is so confusing....

Of course it was random/silliness.

4) I am patiently waiting for your additional thoughts because you really need them to come soon so that others don't start getting an uneasy feeling about your play so far....

Fair enough :p

moar later

[Porkens]

vote: insanguin

I think it's time for a claim, pengy.

[Porkens]

*sigh*, this always seems to happen day one.

I don't want to/will not regurgitate what you all have already said. I've decided that yes, penguin should claim or die, based on the cases

you people

have presented.

And christ, I hope someone does quckhammer. that'll certainly give some direction to day two.

[Porkens]

Because then we could persue the quickhammer-er.

A claim is usual at L-1.

I *hate* day 1, I honestly don't care who we lynch. There, I said it.

[Porkens]

I've got no real reason to believe penguin is scum. In fact, the scummiest things he has done, in my opinion, has been since his wagon fell apart. But, even these are moot.

Naturally, the game will have a tracker if there is no cop. So unless someone wants to CC it, I think IP is clear.

unvote

[Porkens]

felt like a good place at the time to put mine, and seen nowhere better to put it

Maybe I'm having a reading problem again, but do you still feel this is the case?! Could you elaborate a bit more on why IP is still your vote for today...?

[Porkens]

I'd like penguin to describe his power so those who don't know what a tracker does can find out, and we might catch him in a lie if we are lucky.

I approve of this.

But as to Jul's holding back analysis, I see no reason to encourage that.

[Porkens]

Nice PBPA by juls. (I

suspect

(well, suspected at the time) that IP was town.)

Between the Don/Nameless/Ger conversation, the last few interactions, I believe, have gone into namelesses corner.

[Porkens]

your only defense at this point that you are not scum is that you are lazy. do you plan on playing like this the entire game?

What do you want? An un-cc'd claim? Some kind of proof? Gimmie a break.

No, I don't.

[Porkens]

Tell me more about this "loner" vibe...?

[Porkens]

@Megatheory: Lynching Penguin right now is, unfortunetly (:lol:), not the right way to go. I know getting someone to L-1 (you're welcome) and then having it fall apart is frustrating, but getting to L-1 isn't a scumtell. And claiming a power role like tracker (with no CC) is a pretty fine reason to let someone live till Day 2. Maybe the scum will kill him, maybe not, maybe they'll try and get blocked, maybe not. It's really not important. The important thing is that we focus on other avenues at this time. If you want to hammer out what we do with Penguin: Let him live until we have reason to suspect that he is lying about his claim.

@Plum: You asked me what I meant by "the last few interactions going to Nameless." Nameless and Don, and a bit Ger too, were having a talk about WIFOM. I meant that I agreed with Nameless: it wasn't wifom to begin with. Don seemed to be arguing from the stance that Nameless' main arguments were WIFOM. They were not.

About penguin; Yeah, instead of talking about "gut" or "vibes" I said "real reasons." The L-1 vote was to get pressure and to keep the day moving. I love keeping Day-1s hot and fast in general and what you guys had been saying about penguin contradicting himself etc. was good enough at the time to force a claim. Now there is simply more evidence that he is town rather than scum. But that doesn't mean there was ever any hard evidence to begin with that somehow got controverted.

@Nameless: Here's some terrible meta for you: I

usually

think people are town, and chances are they will be on day 1.

[Porkens]

Porkens wrote:
The L-1 vote was to get pressure and to keep the day moving.
Porkens earlier wrote:
I hope someone does quckhammer.

Ending the day counts as keeping it moving now?

Meh, I think you're getting kind of pedantic here.

If someone quickhammers, really and truely BAM before the claim when there is certainly going to be one...that's great because it will focus the game and (hopefuly) get people talkin'.

Or my answer can be; the day didn't end, did it?

[Porkens]

-Penguin can only get off the hook if he finds a player who targeted a dead player.
-If that player is lynched and comes up scum, penguin should be lynched unless he finds another player who targeted a dead player.
-This continues until penguin does not find a scum or three scum are dead. At that point, penguin is lynched.
-We guarantee that penguin does not survive until endgame.

Is this the plan y'all are referring to? In spirit, I don't think there's much difference between this and "let him live until he screws up," but...


Let's look at it from an odds point of view.


If he's really a tracker, and given 3 scum, and no town visiting roles, you're giving him a 75% chance of

not

fulfilling your criteria and getting lynched.

Are you really comfortable with that?

Just know that going back on your ~plan~ is going to look scummy if you decide it's actually not such a great idea tomorrow.

[Porkens]

I see what don was referring, correctly so, as the wifom in nameless' argument.

Even talking about what the doctor ~should~ or ~shouldn't~ do at this point, I think, is probably wasteful. You can always yell at him/her in twilight or closer to a lynch. I'll go along with the FOS from Juls on this one.

Can we please get a vote count on this page already?

gosh...

[Porkens]

I thought that was going to start a new page

[Porkens]

i don't know why you are bashing me with it so much...

Plea to emotion.

I don't think it was misunderstood at all. It was vague. That's the reason it stood out to me as suspicious. It looks like a vague suggestion for a random lynch.

I think I may have started this with my comment on the probability of megatheory's plan catching scum. My original formula was wrong, obviously;
and the correct one would depend entirely on whether all the scum visit the target or not.

where on earth did i suggest random lynching for this game?

Here: [quote="ger]i strongly suspect mafia come out best and town would be better off random lynching day one... [/quote]

I think it's pretty clear what you mean here; from your experience, you guyss random lynching day 1 has a statistically better chance to hit scum than not. And that's

fine

with me, you can state that.

I don't think it's scummy to suggest a random lynch day 1. What is scummy-est is all the backpedaling about this statement that you've done.

unvote, vote: Geraintm

[Porkens]

I think I may have started this with my comment on the probability of megatheory's plan catching scum. My original formula was wrong, obviously;
and the correct one would depend entirely on whether all the scum visit the target or not.

Wait, sorry, no. I was thinking of the watcher role.

[Porkens]

Why would we have two trackers?

[Porkens]

Shot and Beheaded look like our two kill flavors. Ger, without quoting, can you share any clues you might have as to your kill flavor?

[Porkens]

I think one of them is probably lying. I'm leaning toward this "double-tracker" joat role being the lie for the time being.

Id be happy lynching anyone today, I thought that would be clear by now.

[Porkens]

I'm waiting for a little more information and an answer to my question before I make that determination

[Porkens]

Shot and Beheaded look like our two kill flavors. Ger, without quoting, can you share any clues you might have as to your kill flavor?

what purpose does this achieve? i haven't killed anyone yet.

Should I read this as an answer of "No"? I think it's important...

why do you think i am lying? has there been anything about my claim that strikes you as feeling untrue? have i not been forthcoming and given as much info as possible? what could i have done with my role to make you believe me more???

My first instinct tells me that there aren't two trackers in the game, and your JOAT with only two abilities also doesn't make sense. You're defense in this long post gives me a bad feeling in my tummy.

There's one more thing, you said this:

plum, i brought up the night zero kills because there had been discussion of possible sk because of the two kills, i wanted to kill that discussion till there is some evidence. i didn't mean to sidetrack talk today now with that, i was trying to kill talk on a pointless topic of the existence of a SK.

You're pretty vehement about not talking about and SK, while to me the night 0 looks awfully like a big "HAY GUYS" from our mod.

My vote stays on the SK.

[Porkens]

OH, I missed a page, my bad. I'll switch my vote after I do another read.

but hey, if you want to all hang Ger, I think that'd be good.

[Porkens]

Why don't we lynch CO?

[Porkens]

unvote, vote donjohnson

If it has to be one of you, fine.

[Porkens]

I'm pretty sure my vote's going right back onto don tomorrow.

[Porkens]

MOD, was the deadline A.M. or P.M.?

I assumed PM, so I'm a little surprised to see Juls and Nameless do this tonight.

Juls has been setting up her reasoning for switching in the last couple posts and that's noted.

[Porkens]

Vote: don_johnson

While I do admire the straightforwardness of this post, I must ask if there is

anything else

you'd care to add to it?

it was seriously argued that mega's misinterpreted argument of "if one of nameless or dj is town, the other must be scum", was a horrible theory, and yet now, because nameless flipped town, juls is voting for me before any other information is revealed. kind of feels like she is setting us up.

Here's some classic WIFOM for you: If she were going to "set us up," couldn't she be a

little

more subtle about it?

porkens vote was heinous. insidious. blatant bandwagoning for a lynch. not particularly any different than his playstyle for the entire day, but pretty blatantly anti-town.

OMGUS, or what? The going theory, at the time, was that one of you needed to be lynched. I would have rathered it was you, plain and simple.

i would like there to be discussion. if we decide to string me up, so be it. if we have a vig, i am a much better nightkill.

I really don't care for this line. You've just told us how you shouldn't be lynched, you have one (count 'em ONE) vote on you, and you're already bargaining for a night kill instead.

vote: Don_Johnson

[Porkens]

I'm reading, I'm here, I'll post sometime tomorrow.

[Porkens]

But for now: no, obviously I don't want to lynch without the reports.

[Porkens]

Answering Don's Question:

you have never explained why. that is not plain and simple. like i said, you explained nothing yesterday. to explain myself, until your last vote you were in my "neutral" category with dan and chaos. this unexplained vote moved you to anti town. not because you voted me, but because you voted without explanation.

Remember that the person

I

wanted to lynch was Ger, but Nameless demanded that I vote for one of the two of you. I found that demand to be a fairly townie (maybe not pro-town) thing to do, so I figured if one of you were actually scum, it was probably you, not Nameless. So you were, at the time, simply scummy by comparison.

Continued Suspicion of Don:

i don't look at it as "bargaining". i am just trying to help town. lynching me would put us at even steven tomorrow from the looks of it(assuming three anti town roles.) all i'm saying is that town allegedly has a vig. from the flavor and number of the kills per night we should reasonably believe that we can clear him. sure there is wifom, mafia could send in a no kill, but at least i would be cleared without a mislynch.

The point isn't to clear you, though! At that point, we would want to clear Ger. And if you are town, why do you want to waste our 1 vig shot to prove it?!

i am a dead man walking. that much is clear. you guys just need to make the right choices to win this game. if anything, my day 1 play should be a complete null tell, so lynching me will prove nothing.

Appeal to emotion.

just noticing this, but from my point of view, if ip is telling the truth(and barring the existence of an investigation immune role), juls would be the only unconfirmed on the bandwagon. i am wondering if mine and nameless' argument could have caused a complete self destruction?

That's an interesting observation but you know you aren't confirmed to the rest of us.

And all about

this

business:

Last, a quick lynch with little discussion will not be helpful for us the next day. Let's get the track results and get discussion going.

porkens: do you have any other suggestions for a lynch? or would you rather force through the day, like juls, without discussion, investigation results, etc.?

Yes, we are now at 5 to lynch so can we please wait for IP and gers's actions. I think following what NL said we should take a closer look at MT (I'm in the process right now).

NO

, I demand a lynch NOW, before, there is any sharing of information. I demand that we ignore the clues we may get from our supposed trackers and quicklynch the most obvious choice im-fucking-mediately.

Really???

Was this such a danger that all three of you had to warn the town about it?

FOS on Atro, Don, and Dan

Don and Dan

if the rest of the wagon was town, it is reasonable for juls to be just what she claims: confused town. porkens, though frustrating, is at least consistent. their vote on me could simply have been "hey i like nameless better." dan wasn't even paying attention to what was going on yesterday. and today he is arguing logic with me. also, i believe his whole "why is don still calling nameless anti-town" to be strawman. focusing on something that isn't terribly relevant to the issue at hand. if ip is telling the truth that means that not only did nameless lynch himself, but he did it with a lot of town help. can anyone honestly deny that nameless' self hammer was in any way protown? he may have thought it was, but it very plainly wasn't. to argue this makes no sense to me.

Sorry that I've been frustrating.

In adition to that, while I belive you're right in that the argument could be a strawman; I just wanted to remind you (all) that

being wrong != scummy

.

Juls is starting to send out a strong scum vibe today:

Folks, this is the misinformation that makes don_johnson scummy. Megatheory is NOT confirmed just because IP says he didn't go anywhere. It only means that if megatheory is mafia he did not send in the kill. The tracker role ONLY tells you who was targetted and not what action they did. It does NOT tell you his guilt or innocence. Furthermore, NOTHING has been said or done to confirm don_johnson. Please lynch don or Megatheory...I am willing to vote for either.

Do you hate day 2 like I hate day 1 ? You've go the pedal to the metal!

Like Don said,

IF

penguin is telling the truth (which I'm inclined to believe at this point), Mega has a 12.5% chance to be the scum, in your scenario, that didn't send in the kill, and IS NOT the serial killer. Those are, in fact, pretty decent odds.

And, I have to agree with Don on this point; What's with the strong Megascum feelings?

[Porkens]

no, the point was not to clear me. the point is to clear both of us without a mislynch.

...

maybe, but upon further review and given what little i know of our mod, i doubt he would give town a situation that would be unwinnable with mislynches on both day 1 and day 2, so i'm not sure it is going to be all that detrimental to lynch me. i would rather hit scum today, though, and i'm not sure how much information my lynch would provide. i will leave that up to the rest of you. i am not trying to appeal to emotion as much as i am to common sense. if i am scum, i am brazen.

Ok, I guess if you were thinking we were in Lylo, what you said makes sense. The bit of WIFOM at the end is the kind I like, too.

i have no comment on your connections, i have had atronach in my town column for a while, mainly because of his level headed ness. dan just seems to be stuck in second gear and i have previously stated how i feel.

Speaking of connections, I think that's the second time you've directly complimented atronach's townie-ness.

juls is slowly earning my vote. but like i said, i am not driving today.

This I agree with whole-heartedly. Juls needs to put a little more into her bulldogging.

[Porkens]

unvote

until the Ger/Juls situation resolves a bit.

[Porkens]

We don't know shit about what he did or didn't do.

[Porkens]

:hint: :hint:

[Porkens]

That's a

horrible

breadcrumb, bro :p

But, even though, maybe even

because

, you flubbed your role, your claim makes 1000X more sense now, so I believe ya.

[Porkens]

So you're vote basically because he didn't vig anyone?

[Porkens]

*your

[Porkens]

Why would he say he was a tracker in the first place and then switch it to watcher and then tell us that no one visited penguin, of all people?

[Porkens]

my guess - he knew penguin would be out, but would not necessarily know where penguin went. by avoiding saying where penguin went(even though penguin admitted it) he avoids the situation where penguin comes back and says, "gotcha, i actually visited so and so." unlikely, but it is certainly convenient. point: by backtracking to watcher he gets out of having to commit anyone to a location.

That actually makes a great deal of sense.

However, it doesn't jive with the implications you drew earlier about Ger and IP:

ger's claim itself, his reaction to my ebwop where i posted info from the wikiguide regarding the role he claimed, and his lack of contribution and questionable "watcher" results all raise my suspicion of him. his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear.

it would have been more believable for our "vig" to claim roleblocked. point is: he should have vig'd me. he should have vig'd someone, or mafia should have targeted him somehow.

[Porkens]

I was clubbed unconscious last night. I doubt that would have any effect on penguin's power if he really is a tracker.

what

?

Also, in case it's not clear, we are in LYLO. We have nine players now. 9 alive - 1 lynch - 2 kills = 6 which is a town loss barring some kind of miracle. This basically makes my plan on dealing with penguin an extraordinarily bad idea.

What kind of miracle?

[Porkens]

my guess - he knew penguin would be out, but would not necessarily know where penguin went. by avoiding saying where penguin went(even though penguin admitted it) he avoids the situation where penguin comes back and says, "gotcha, i actually visited so and so." unlikely, but it is certainly convenient. point: by backtracking to watcher he gets out of having to commit anyone to a location.

That actually makes a great deal of sense.

However, it doesn't jive with the implications you drew earlier about Ger and IP:

ger's claim itself, his reaction to my ebwop where i posted info from the wikiguide regarding the role he claimed, and his lack of contribution and questionable "watcher" results all raise my suspicion of him. his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear.

it would have been more believable for our "vig" to claim roleblocked. point is: he should have vig'd me. he should have vig'd someone, or mafia should have targeted him somehow.

i don't see what you mean. i wasn't implying that they were working together, if that's what you are getting at. if there is some glaring problem you will have to point it out.

Sorry, I guess I don't understand what you mean here by:

his results conveniently leave IP and himself clear.

If you don't mean they could be scumbuddies, what did you mean?

[Porkens]

Sorry guys, I was called in to sub today, I meant to be posting earlier.

Mega

;
I don't know what you mean about "making things a hell of a lot easier for penguin" if we massclaimed. Are you saying making it easier for the tracker to do his business is a

bad

thing?

That's a horrible breadcrumb, bro :p

But, even though, maybe even because, you flubbed your role, your claim makes 1000X more sense now, so I believe ya.

That post wasn't really a breadcrumb at all because it came after ger claimed and in twilight. It makes perfect sense for scum to have a plan of action by the time the day is over. His "breadcrumb" proves absolutely nothing. Why does his mistake make his claim more believable anyway?

Ahhh, I see what you mean! It just seemed like such a genuine "duh" moment to claim tracker when you're actually a watcher, it's so dumb, I couldn't work out how a scum, who would be thinking about it carefuly, could make the mistake. But, as someone pointed out, a night of thinking could clearly come up with the realization that watcher is a much smarter claim.

I will never distance myself from the Namless lynch or a don lynch if it happens.

But...

I'd really, really hear why Juls thinks don is so suspicious because I can't find anything on him at this point.

Huh?

Juls

You seem to have guessed something about Meatheory in 504. I just can't see a scum saying this in this particular way. That's a good case in 508.

Vote: Don

For me, the massclaim is the scummiest thing. Don's been talking all day about how he is mostly resigned to being killed either today or tonight, but asking for everyone (the REST of the power roles if, in fact, there are any) to reveal themselves is an obvious gambit imho.

Also, Juls choice to claim blue is too ballsy a play for scum, at this point, imho.

[Porkens]

I'm surprised that Dan didn't RB atro and kill a townie! Much higher chance of an SK victory that way.

Given that the town won like this; I shudder what it would have been like if their power-roles had survived!

Good vig shot...ass.

I was immune to knives!

And immune to cop investigations LAWL (grumble).

http://www.quicktopic.com/42/H/2RR8diGd3jaME

Thanks to my partner Atro, definitely played a stronger game than i did.

[Porkens]

-I would really like anyone/everyone to give me advise on how I could play better. I tried hard but I know I made mistakes. Please be constructive with your criticism though, don't just bash me cause you don't like me. I want to improve.

We, the scum, kept you around because you kept lynching the town
Which isn't all bad. If I had been town, I would have gone after Don as well. Nameless, probably not...
You definitely had a big role on the last day; cementing the win for the town; you should feel good about that.
In general, I'd say lynch more lurkers

[Porkens]

Hehe, a good game though!

See you next Tecmo!