Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville - Game Over

[charter]

vote Panzer

Look under his name, Mafia Scum. I didn't know this game was so easy.

[charter]

Fos Artem. I think you could actually be scum. Bringing a RVS wagon to three votes is scummy? That's some imagination. I'd vote for you but Panzer has already been caught.

[charter]

Hi!

vote Xdaamno

for already piling on BSG. Plus, I like penguins.

Why pick Xdaamno over alvinz who also voted BSG after lynx?
Now that I've got my obligatory pointless scumhunting questioning out of the way...

Fos Artem. I think you could actually be scum. Bringing a RVS wagon to three votes is scummy? That's some imagination. I'd vote for you but Panzer has already been caught.

Are you actually defeating your own argument with a counterclaim of "but it's under Panzer's name"? Surely one oughtn't use ones fos so lightly, neh?

Xdaamo has it right.

Fos Artem. I think you could actually be scum. Bringing a RVS wagon to three votes is scummy? That's some imagination. I'd vote for you but Panzer has already been caught.

If you're going to claim a correlation between putting players at L-4 in the random voting stage and chance of being scum, I'll need to hear some justification.

I'm not the one voting for Xdaamno. What makes you think I'm calling 3 votes/L-4 scummy?

You said that putting someone at three votes makes them an easy target. You then voted for the person (Artifax) that put someone at three votes. You were implying there was something scummy about what Artifax did (by accusing her of voting for an easy target, something scum would do but not town) and then voted her using that justification. I'd have passed it off as nothing, but you clarified, implying that your vote was not a joke. Putting someone at three votes is not scummy. Doing what you did was.

My mistake. I always assume there's something fishy about cats.

No... You had it right.

artem didn't call bringing 3 votes at rvs scummy, that was artifex >.<
such confusing names

I think they are all poking "easy targets". I think arti would have significantly higher chance of being scum because xdam is significantly "easier" than arti is, but I think its somewhat mitigated by 27...

You can tell who has a significantly higher chance of being scum by RVS pitiful wagons? Unlikely.

Wow, Charter caught me, lol.

Anyway..putting someone at 3 is not scummy. Putting someone at 5 would be a little scummy. On that note,

Unvote, Vote:BSG

I see what you're up do. I disagree about putting someone at L-2 being scummy. I also note how you wait to put BSG at L-3 and then say that putting someone at L-2 being scummy.

unvote, vote BSG

[charter]

Let me put it to you another way: what do you hope to gain by your vote?

Time will tell.

[charter]

I'm on vacation, I will read up when I get back on sat, sorry!

[charter]

Why would town want to balance on the fine edge of WIFOM?

FoS: charter

I don't see how what I did is WIFOM at all. I call it scumhunting.

I'm not a huge fan of the Artem L-2 vote from charter, but I do find it interesting that Artem didn't vote. There's no reason not to vote. I think Artem is being careful not to draw the same attention he received from his first vote.

Vote:Artem

I put BSG at L-2, note Artem. Just clarifying.

Unvote Vote Artem

From the looks of it, your RVS vote was the only with a serious side attached to it. The only other player who could have a serious reason attached to it, would have been Xdaamno, but I'm not sure about that yet. So I don't see why you would unvote and not vote another player.
You also accused Artifex for going after an easy target as she voted Xdaamno, who had put me at L-4. However, you FoSed the player who put me at L-2. Aren't you doing the same as of which you accused Artifex?
And I don't see the WIFOM. I can see two reasons why Charter put me at L-2. But I'll let Charter respond to this first.

Just like Dfan, I'm wondering why you didn't vote.

You answered the bolded part yourself.

Because if I voted, I would be doing exactly what I voted Artifex for, making me a hypocrite.

charter deserves a FoS, because of the WIFOM. There is, however, a reason for a townie to do what he did. So, yes, let's have charter respond to it first.

I don't see hypocricy if you had voted. Also, why would you Fos someone when there are TOWN reasons for their actions? That makes no sense.

What I

do

find interesting is that you're so concerned with whether I voted or FoSed somebody, while completely disregarding my given reasons. You said that you don't see the WIFOM. It was pointed out to you. Yet you seem adamant about your opinion of charter putting you at L-2.

I can FoS charter. I can also vote for him. It doesn't make much difference right now as there is no bandwagon on him. I'm not pouncing on an easy target. I'm giving him a slap on the wrist, because townies (assuming he is one) shouldn't play with WIFOM as it distracts and confuses the town.

The fact that you're pouncing on me, while disregarding my arguments against charter tells me that you're really not so worried about the bandwagon on yourself. Why would that be? (One scenario may be that charter (or somebody else on your wagon for that matter) is/are (one of) your buddy(-ies), so you know that they may unvote you at any point to prevent a lynch of you.)

Unvote, Vote Artem

Why are you assuming I am town on page 2? Even moreso because you find me suspicious. Why would BSG be worried about the wagon on herself? Did even one person give a serious reason for voting her?

@Charter, Why the WIFOM? It's scummy to put someone at L-2(which is claim zone) for no reason, so why did you do knowing that it would be WIFOM. You're an experianced player, you should know better.Unvote, FoS:Charter

Disagree. Putting someone at L-2 when most votes are not serious is not time to claim, nor do I see how it is scummy. What advantage would I gain as scum doing that I wouldn't gain as town? Why did I do it? I wanted to see how BSG reacted. I wanted to see if anyone would unvote. I wanted to see if anyone defended BSG. I do apologize for leaving you guys hanging right after I said it, but I was in Florida with no access.

Maybe I have a slightly more fundamental issue. What's wrong with going after easy targets? i.e. if someone outright states they are mafia, are they an easy target? Should you vote for them? (assuming nothing crazy like suicide roles.)

Going after easy targets is scum tactics. Town goes after scum, not whoever they can lynch easiest. For me, it depends on how someone claims mafia (though it doesn't occur frequently enough to worry about) before I decide whether to vote them, but many players have policies of voting anyone claiming mafia.

If I missed something let me know. For now my top two suspects are Artem and Panzer.

[charter]

Oh, I still don't think it's WIFOM. Like I said, I think it's scumhunting.

[charter]

Way to dodge my question charter. Why did you intentionally lead the game into WIFOM teritory? You purposely put a L-2 vote for virtually no reason after I had said it would be scummy to do so, without explaining yourself. Pressure was already there so if you are town or scum you'd already gained that. The extra advantage you get as scum would be dragging the game into WIFOM territory confusing players and taking discussion off a buddy(I believe discussion on Artem had just start) and on something that we couldn't lynch you for exclusively.

If we're calling 'charter put BSG at L-2 after Panzer said putting someone at L-2 is scummy' WIFOM, then I did it because A) I don't think it's WIFOM or scummy, so this whole thing never even entered my head and B) because I saw a great opportunity to uncover links between BSG and anyone and how BSG would react and C) it was coincidental, that was my last post before I was leaving for a while. I fail to see how me doing it right after you said it would be scummy is any more WIFOMy than if I did it a while later either. Since I don't see this, I saw you basically arguing that whoever puts someone at L-2 is suspicious, which is ridiculous.

I believe you voted to intentionally to pull discussion away from Artem.

How do you explain Artem being my top suspect currently?

And I appreciate the OMGUS suspicion you throw at me at the end of your post.

Unfortunately, it isn't OMGUS. You're still going on about L-2 being claiming time, when page two is NOT claiming time, even if you're at L-1. Claiming when not under real pressure is scummy too, so if BSG had claimed we'd have even MORE to work with. Plus, I find your putting someone at L-3 then saying whoever puts them at L-2 is horribly scummy. It A) stops pressure on the person getting wagoned and B) gives you a new person to call scum when someone puts them at L-2. I found your original statement to be quite scummy.

Whats wrong with panzer again? Most of your post seemed to address artem.

Just quoting this as a reminder to myself if panzer is revealed scum.

[charter]

Sure you don't want to elaborate on that a little?

[charter]

unvote

I'm not ready for today to end.

[charter]

112- Don't like it. Especially don't like the Lowell vote at the end.
116- The coincidence is that my post was right after Panzers. Also, Since I believe the idea of putting someone at L-2 to be scummy is ridiculous (per reasons I stated in 109) I didn't see that what I did would be confusing to people.
118- Hey Darox. Good case against Lynx, any thoughts on Artem? Neutral on claim, no need to act on it today.
119-

SCUM: Master Ruck

. His reason for putting Artem at L-1 is terrible when prefaced at the beginning on the post with "I'm tempted to agree with the Artem lynching as well". This is contradictory and it seems like you're out to get in an easy lynch.
120- SCUM, explain Xdaamo
122- He sure did know, he said so in his post
125- I still dont think it's WIFOM, I think it was turned into WIFOM by players, but I'm dropping this. Also, that post of mine after the site crash, I made one similar in all my games, I didn't have time or energy to read them all, so I just posted so I wouldn't get replaced. I didn't actually read anything in this thread.
126- FOS. I'll let Darox respond first.
129- Why did you say it would be a good lynch when you voted then? Not buying this.
130- Your answer should have been yes.

Artem claim

[charter]

And AFTER that, can anyone who has ever considered using such a role or seen such a role know if the event action would be given in the role pm of a mini-normal, or could give a rough idea of how likely such a role is to appear in a mini-normal.

I've been in a mini normal with one before, she claimed after she replaced in day one too. Let me just say we had some WIERD roles in that game too...

Let's face it. I'm the scummiest player because I am the most active/vocal. The sad truth of a forum-based mafia game is that the player that provides the most content will always be picked apart the most. The down side is that it the "active=scummy" phenomenon only encourages lurking scum.

This isn't true.

Xdaamo, why did you say Artem would be a good lynch, then you were "saved" when her lynch didn't actually occur? Why the backpedal? And why did you say you reread when you voted, and then in your next post say you need to reread? And how did you miss it being L-1 with a votecount at the top of the page?

Panzer, can you explain why "one or both of [me and Artem] is scum"? (from 113-114)

[charter]

So I can just assume all the answers to my questions are incriminating then?

[charter]

The answer to him being "saved" is very clearly seen if you actually finished reading the

same sentence

that it turns up in.

Saved by a rule that I hate... I'm not going to complain.

Or do we need to start putting in [sarcasm] tags?

Are you answering my question for Xdaamo?

[charter]

How was that an obvious question?
Xdaamo wanted an Artem lynch. Why would he need to feel "saved" from that lynch happening if he (and a lot of the rest of the town) agreed with it?

[charter]

Oohhh. Well, I feel dumb now.

[charter]

Panzer, are you bussing Xdaamo?

[charter]

This argument against Lynx seems overly convoluted.

I don't know about that, but I'm certainly having a tough time following it.

Charter, you also mentioned a game with a PGO in it. Could you give a link to that game?

Mini 611, link in my wiki.

192-

Vote Xdaamo

The answers to my questions you gave here were a direct contradiction to the post where you voted me. None of those answers were obvious, as can been seen by the confusion of people. Plus, the attempted quickhammer, plus the lack of commenting on a lot of everything, plus only posting when he's being attacked, sounds like he's more interested in defending himself than catching scum.

[charter]

I love all these stoaways fleeing my bandwagon, now that I've claimed and asked everybody to state their reasons. Their reason for fleeing: "Artem has defended himself sufficiently". Really?

Alternatively, people (at least myself) are more suspicious of Xdaamo.

darox- claimed pgo, wich was his first real post of the game, if he is a PGO then he has played it correctly. I believe a PGO should claim immediately after confirming to avoid any pro town role getting nk’d accidentily,

I disagree (but I don't want to actually argue about this in thread). I think that the correct play is to not claim and make the scum NK you by good scumhunting.

Those who are voting Xdaamno, why and what do you think of his explanations?

I think they're poor and indicative of scum. The fact that his wagon didn't balloon after an attempted speedhammer also makes me question why more people aren't voting him.

Though, I will ask Charter a question that was asked to me. If you called me scum as you did (in caps, bold letters I might add) then why no vote or FoS of any kind? Surely suspicion warrants one of those two, or was it simply a pressure move to see what i might say in response?

That was a strong FOS at you. If I was actually convinced you were scum from that I would have voted you and made a case.

LOS
Xdaamo
Panzer
The rest of you

@Everyone voting for someone with just one vote, why? And if the answer is "I think they're scum" or "They need pressure" then why are you not making a case or pressuring? I don't remember any of the reasons you all are voting alone for someone, so I get the impression you're just trying to not call attention to yourself and aren't actually scumhunting.

[charter]

Like I said, that's just how I view it, I think it would be an interesting MD thread (though probably done before).

[charter]

Dan, the reason you are confused by Panzer's statements is they are coming from scum. They probably don't make much sense.

LOS stands for List of Suspicion (with my higher suspects at top and least suspects on the bottom)

[charter]

I think they're poor and indicative of scum. The fact that his wagon didn't balloon after an attempted speedhammer also makes me question why more people aren't voting him.

Bull. Can you show me a point you (or anyone else) have made that I have failed to show does not make me scum?

Not bull.

Xdaamo, why did you say Artem would be a good lynch, then you were "saved" when her lynch didn't actually occur? Why the backpedal? And why did you say you reread when you voted, and then in your next post say you need to reread? And how did you miss it being L-1 with a votecount at the top of the page?

That's unusual. Interrogating, when the answers to all of those questions should be obvious to anyone who's done a moment's thought. This is a real, general "trying to look helpful" scum vibe.

Unvote, Vote: charter

I ask you legitamate questions, and you blow them off and OMGUS vote me. It's not even OMGUS, it's just a TERRIBLE vote you throw down. NONE of the answers there were remotely obvious. What is obvious is that your overreacting and refusal to answer is incredibly scummy of you. When you finally did give answers, they were bad.

You've never explained why you hammered and wanted an Artem lynch, then flipped around once Artem claimed.

Also,

As already mentioned, there was a VC on top of the page where you 'voted' Artem. Strange that you didn't pay much attention towards the VC when you wanted to apply pressure, not?

Uh, I don't think so, especially because my Artem vote was also for pressure.

Adding reasosn for your vote after it's way too late, in an attempt to make it seem like you didn't mean the lynch. In your hammer post, you clearly did want the lynch then. The story changing and flip flopping is scummy.

I admit many of my posts have been speculation. Distancing myself from 'the main scum hunt' is something I do actively.

Scummy as well.

You try and change your reasons some more again later. None of the excuses fly because you said you wanted an Artem lynch. Not Artem pressure, not because you were suspicious of Artem.

238- That's a really weak case. It revolves around the fact that you think the PGO is a scum roll. Policy lynching Darox day one is a really terrible idea. I'm unsure of Darox's alignment. Just cause he claimed PGO doesn't mean he has a get out of jail free pass. I've never said I thought him town.

[charter]

I figured I'd take the time to look at Xd's posts to see if this wagon is unfounded or not. After doing so, I don't have any reason to disagree with it. There was a large week-long gap between posts, the first after the gap saying he'll post more and the post after being the would-be lynch. Arguments have been made against him and he has either barely defended, poorly defended or not bothered to defend against by saying he has lost interest.

I'm gonna

Vote: Xdaamno

and make it

very

that this puts Xd at L-1, so nobody else vote him yet. I'll unvote if people want to feel more safe and discuss more, but as far as I can see with his lack of scum hunting and the potential hammer, discussion is essentially over and unless anyone disagrees Xda should claim.

This is a VERY weak vote. Add in the 'I want to please the town' clause and it becomes extremely scummy. This is actually making me question whether my vote needs to be on Xdaamo or you.

@Xdaamo, do not claim until after you've defended yourself (in case it wasn't obvious)

[charter]

Happy with an Xdaamo lynch if he's going to continue saying the answers were obvious, when the only obvious thing is that they were confusing (as is shown in the thread)

[charter]

Xdaamo, I did read all your posts. When I asked you a bunch of questions, all you did was get worked up, say I'm just asking questions for the hell of it, and say the answers are obvious. Clearly they weren't and you had not answered them already (else I wouldn't have asked them).

I don't even understand your other request. Are you telling me to show where you haven't responded to points against you? If so, then your answers weren't satisfactory, evidenced no votes are moving off of you.

I don't believe that your vote was for pressure when in the post you cast it

you specifically stated you were fine with an Artem LYNCH

. You can keep telling me it is, but all I see is story changing. The story changing combined with an attempted quickhammer you didn't agree with is scummy enough for me to want to lynch you.

[charter]

Just to make things clear, charter, you are implying I tried to make it look like an accidental lynch?

No. You said you wanted an Artem lynch when you cast the vote. Now you're saying you voted for pressure. You're changing your story.

As I said above, your logic is circular. If I was scum I would be doing as you said (which is an implausable scenario, but I'll be generous and say it's neutral) and if I was town I'd be doing what I had said. What makes one scenario more likely than the other? It's certainly not because you have a kink for stating fallacy as fact.

What makes you scum more likely is that I don't see town changing their story (and having a really weak one to begin with). Why would you try and cover up your original reason for voting? I see it much more likely that scum would do that.

Here, I asked "what makes one scenario more like than the other"? This was rhetorical, but if your argument is not completely invalid you must have an answer for this, or you must point out the question is flawed.

Same as above.

Artem is right in 273.

[charter]

Still want the Xdaamo lynch.

[charter]

I think you're scum, I want to lynch you.

[charter]

Would anyone else run up Panzer before deadline with me? I believe he has a way higher chance of being scum.

[charter]

Is the reason for voting panzer because he is a possible lynch besides yourself? If it's different please tell.

[charter]

Is the reason for voting panzer because he is a possible lynch besides yourself? If it's different please tell.

No, that was my reasoning.

k

Would anyone else run up Panzer before deadline with me? I believe he has a way higher chance of being scum.

Yes, I would actually.

Unvote; Vote: Panzer

unvote vote Panzer

As a side note, Panzer has been lurking lately, likely waiting for the Xd thing to blow over.

Welcome to the thing I find most suspicious about him now. Ever since his vote on Xdaamo, he's said nothing about Xdaamo. He's just sitting tight on the wagon. Now it's almost deadline and he's still lurking (though he did say he was away) but it doesn't excuse him clinging to his Artem+charter scumbuddies but voting Xdaamo terrible logic. He gets called out on it and all of a sudden just drops it.

Good lord. I filtered just his posts. He agree's with Darox on lynx, he thinks me and Artem are scum, he's voting Xdaamo, FOS's Darox based solely on his claim. Basically anyone that has come under any scrutiny at all he is suspicious of, yet he doesn't actually do anything but latch on. He's changed his opinion on me from scum to not scum back to scum for not really any reason. Basically he's just going with the flow.

[charter]

At the bottom, right under preview and submit is the "Display posts from previous: " All Posts by All users Oldest First.

Simply pick the person you want to view instead of all users.

[charter]

Charter, define how I'm scummy.

With pleasure.

First, you putting BSG at L-3 then declaring whoever puts her at L-2 would be scummy. For I can't count how many reasons, this is not true. What's even worse, is how you actually voice suspicion of me after I do it. I don't really find anything wrong with your vote for BSG however, as far as I can tell it's just a pressure vote.

You then vote me because "the game needs to move". You later come up with some ridiculous theory that I voted BSG to pull attention off Artem WHEN ARTEM HAD ONE VOTE ON HER. Also, you can look at my posts, I clearly was suspicious of Artem myself.

I respond, and I've "defended myself sufficiently" in your eyes. You even agree with MY REASONING ALONE that Artem is suspicious. However, you come right back a few posts later with "let's lynch [charter's] scumbuddy, Artem"

You never pursue Artem, you just lay your vote down and move on to Fos'ing Darox when he claims.

Then agrees with Darox on Lynx. Never pursues this.

Then you vote Xdaamo after the Artem wagon disbands and just as his is starting up. Still goes on about the charter+Artem scumbuddy theory. As far as I can tell this is still clinging to the 'charter pulled the pressure of one vote off Artem' nonsense.

You really don't push Xdaamo either. You just sit tight on this wagon too.

Note:

Artem jumped right on when charter suggested lynching me, Also Charter didn't have the balls to vote me without approval from Artem

I'm not going to try and start up a new wagon right before deadline if it won't be supported. Obviously Xdaamo's vote didn't mean much because he's the one we'd be lynching if nothing changed (and saying it's a self preservation vote was the only acceptable answer to my question, good work Xdaamo). It didn't matter that it was Artem, it just needed to be someone other than Xdaamo.

To those who don't see the case on Panzer, look at just his post and look how weak all his suspicions have been. He also has no interest in following up on ANY of them.

[charter]

Well, I'd been debating in my head for a while. I just didn't think I had any case against Panzer, it was mostly feelings. At the time I asked, I hadn't actually gone through Panzer's posts again, I was just basing that off my gut so before I undertook the task of trying to convince several others I wanted to see if there would be any support at all.

I'm still completely fine with an Xdaamo lynch, I just think Panzer is more likely to be scum.

[charter]

Why would you prefer a Panzer lynch over Xdaamo? Who is your top choice for lynching today?

[charter]

For the record, I don't think Xdaamo is town, I just think Panzer is WAY more likely to be scum.

And from what I gathered, Xdaamo threatened to self hammer to ensure a lynch.

Lowell, what do you think of my case on Panzer? Did you read it? How can you have no opinion on him?

[charter]

How can you have no opinion on Panzer?

[charter]

How can you have no opinion on Panzer?

...

What? That was obviously directed at Lowell.

How can you have no opinion on Panzer?

I would also like to remind folks that Panzer casually dismissed my earlier arguments against Lowell. If Panzer flips scum, I think Lowell has a good chance of being a scum-buddy.

My thoughts exactly.

@Lynx and tubby, what are your opinions on Panzer? I'd say both of you look suspicious for your posts there. If anything, you should be suspicious of me for clearly trying to get someone else besides Xdaamo lynched right before deadline. You continue to view his actions as scummy, but it doesn't make sense that you're not getting worked up over my recent actions. If you actually think Xdaamo is scum, then you surely must think I am as well because I'm clearly trying to lynch someone besides him today.

Also, Lynx, I feel like a bunch of the reasons you give in 336 apply to Panzer as well (along with other reasons).

[charter]

Happy with a Panzer lynch. An Xdaamo lynch is an acceptable last resort.

[charter]

MR, afatchic, and artifex.

FoS all of you. Pick a wagon, I don't believe that you don't find either of Panzer or Xdaamo scummy.

[charter]

Panzer really didn't respond to my points. He still thinks I was trying to take suspicion off Artem. This makes no sense and there was really not that much suspicion on Artem to begin with. His explaination about there being a lot of newbies in this game is flawed. It's not a NG, it's a mini. If someone makes a newbie mistake, "I didn't know better, I'm a newbie" doesn't fly.

He says he was suspicious of all the people he's voted/FoS'ed but didn't explain why he hasn't been doing anything other than voting and leaving it there. I can see that he was suspicious of them, and he basically reiterated his original suspicions in that post. He didn't explain the suspicious part, about why he finds everyone that has come under scrutiny suspicious but just votes for them and leaves it at that.

The worst thing is how he agreed with only my reasoning for voting Artem, but still thinks we're scumbuddies. How on earth does this work? Also his quickness to accept me and Artem's explainations for stuff (even if they were non existant) and then still say we're scumbuddies.

I'm not asking for a claim because you're right. I don't want to be seen as a rolefisher. I think it's fairly obvious he's not a power role or else he would have mentioned it though.

[charter]

I think it's Panzer and dan. I don't think Xdaamo is scum anymore. I got all excited about his mishammer and got carried away.

I add dan to my list because of his earlier ties to Panzer and his most recent post, saying he finds Xdaamo more town and Panzer more scum but doesn't change his vote.

[charter]

@Charter- You're pretty excited about Panzer, too. An honest question- why is this time different from when you were excited about Xda (how can I know you arent being 'carried away' again?

Can I give you a cut and dry reason? No. It's mostly how the different wagons formed. I feel like Xdaamo's wagon is scum driven and Panzer's is town driven.






I would bet my life that Artem is town.

[charter]

I think it's Panzer and dan. I don't think Xdaamo is scum anymore. I got all excited about his mishammer and got carried away.

I add dan to my list because of his earlier ties to Panzer and his most recent post, saying he finds Xdaamo more town and Panzer more scum but doesn't change his vote.

This to me reeks of scum trying to renounce the wagon he was part of creating. Sounds very scummy to take back all your suspicion of Xdaamno just as he's on the brink of being lynched right before deadline. First you move to Panzer, then later completely remove all suspicion you have of Xdaamno. Trying to wipe your hands perfectly clean of his lynch?

Major FOS:Charter

If it wasn't deadline I might consider more strongly changing my vote to you.

Well, I can't really give you any reason. I see why you're suspicious of me, I probably deserve it, but I really want Panzer lynched over Xdaamo. Xdaamo can theoretically be town, while I can't see Panzer being town at all. Xdaamo is still a good lynch because it gives lots of info, but I really don't see him flipping scum.

[charter]

Panzer is definately the way to go today.
Assuming Xdaamo isn't scum, like I said, I'd bet money Artem is town.

[charter]

All it takes is two people to switch from Xdaamo to Panzer. dan is clearly distancing from Panzer as well.

[charter]

I changed my vote. I got the impression that you found Panzer more suspicious but kept yours on Xdaamo.

[charter]

Xdaamo, you're trying to say that we are scumbuddies together. For numerous reasons this isn't true (for example, I'm not scum)

Oh, and this is the scummiest sentence said in my entire mafia career:

Assuming Xdaamo isn't scum, like I said, I'd bet money Artem is town.

It will be obvious why I said that tomorrow.

[charter]

vote Panzer

Same reasons as yesterday. Add being a lurkmonster right before deadling.

[charter]

You missed the RVS, it was about 20 pages ago.

[charter]

Last time I checked, being right isn't a scumtell.

[charter]

Being right about Artem I mean. (but I'm still nearly positive you and dan are scum together)

[charter]

Artem and Xdaamo I mean. I need sleep.

[charter]

Ditto. As far I know I'm not 100% confirmed.

Xdaamo, you're trying to say that we are scumbuddies together. For numerous reasons this isn't true (for example, I'm not scum)

Oh, and this is the scummiest sentence said in my entire mafia career:

Assuming Xdaamo isn't scum, like I said, I'd bet money Artem is town.

It will be obvious why I said that tomorrow.

Not obvious to me.

There were two possibilities. First one. If I had died last night, you would have been speedlynched. Second one. I lived through last night, you are confirmed town.

I think I can actually claim, since if I go about investigating townies, I can't be killed at night. I'm a

Hider

. Last night I hid behind Artem, therefore Artem is town. That's why I said I'd bet my life Artem was town, because I was literally betting my life. (I was reasonably sure no one would kill her because she was pretty scummy)

As far as explaining how I thought Xdaamo was town, like I said yesterday, I got all excited by his hammer that I got blinded. Once I actually thought about it, his wagon reeked of mislynch.

[charter]

And also, Panzer is scum. After he flips scum, dan is his buddy. If I had to give a third guess it would be Lowell, but that's a really weak guess.

[charter]

...And I don't see what's scummy about that.

Lynx, what do you have to say about my claim? Why did you ignore it?

[charter]

How can you buy into my claim but still vote me?

As far as Panzer's arguement that I 'know' everyone's alignment. Firstly, I don't, I was overstating (except that now I do know Artem's alignment). Secondly, [WIFOM]would I really be that obvious as scum?[/WIFOM] No.

[charter]

Again with the simulpost. Anyhow, it's not the fact that you changed your mind about Xdaamno.Thats fine. It's the timing of it. You changed your stance pretty close to the deadline. Which makes me believe that you were trying cut all ties to the Xdaamno wagon just as he was about to be lynched. It was pretty cemented already that he was gonna be lynched and you'd know he would flip town.

FALSE. There was a votecount where Xdaamo only had one more vote than Panzer. I also changed my mind with PLENTY of time before deadline to actually change the lynch. Your whole reasoning for voting me is entirely untrue.

As for the claim goes like I said I could buy into it. Like I said earlier I already believe Artem to be town. Hider is just another role I've never seen in Mafia. It's certainly believable. Curious why you'd claim now though? To clear Artem? Wouldn't it have been more beneficial to unveil this if he was about to be lynched or after day 2 with another townie?

I claimed now because everyone was asking me to explain my breadcrumbs from the end of yesterday. Plus, as long as I hid behind townies (and they aren't killed) I can't be killed at night, so me and the scum get to play outguess. The reason why I'm not waiting is I fully plan on continuing using my ability so there's a good chance I die sooner, rather than later.

Master Ruck why no vote at a deadline? Not trying to get too much attention perhaps?

Unless I wanted to be the hammer on Xda, my vote wouldn't have made a difference close to deadline. I didn't want to hammer either as I felt Xda could still contribute more so, even though I was wrong, I didn't hammer thus giving Xda all the tim until deadline to add anything else should he feel like it. Basically, I was giving him a chance to say more.

Such a scummy post.

@ Charter, question. Why do you believe you hiding behind Artem confirms him to be town? I looked up the Hider and what I understand of your reasoning is that because Artem didn't die last night, he is now town. All that tells me is that last night Artem didn't die. Had

you

died last night along with afatchic then I would believe Artem is scum seeing as what the hider

sometimes

entails is that the hider automatically dies if he hides behind scum. Right now, I'm still not seeing any confirmed anythings.

I didn't die, so Artem is town. If I hid behind scum I die.

(@Charter: minor point but I am a male. Artifex is female.)

Sorry, got you guys mixed up.

[charter]

Also, Artem, your logic in 497 is wrong (your grouping people into different alignments like that) but I agree (for the most part) with your conclusions.

[charter]

Artem gave me town vibes after she nearly got lynched.

I'm trying to get Panzer lynched, and when he flips scum, I will show that you are his partner.

[charter]

No, it was a feeling.

[charter]

I thought your Dan/Panzer scum idea was formed by Dan's expressed suspicion of Panzer, but how he remained on the Xdaamno wagon?

No, there are numerous things that point to these two being partners. Unless it will help convince people to vote panzer, I don't see the need in doing it before Panzer's alignment is known.

To answer your do I have to use it each night, yes I do. Also, I just reread my role PM, ALL night actions targetting me fail if I hide behind a townie. (It actually says not mafia, but I see nothing to show SK/other third party in this game)

[charter]

And Happy Birthday!

[charter]

Yes.

[charter]

Need more Panzer votes.

[charter]

Charter, Seriously man. You are waaay to narrow minded.

Unvote: Vote:Lynx

For most of his stuff yesterday.

The case against you is one of two in this game. The other is on Lynx. I don't put much stock in the Lynx one so you're left.

And how have you gone to assuming I'm town and that Artem is town? Know that both of us actually aren't your scumbuddy? It just seems so hard to believe that you (as town) voted one of your minor suspects yesterday, when me and Artem were scumbuddies, and even earlier today, I was "so scummy" and now you've flipped 180 and we are town. I can't believe that you've simply changed this drastically unless all of it has been a scum act to fit in the whole time.

In conclusion, this strengthens the idea that you are scum, and you should have more votes to reflect this.

[charter]

But how do you know I'm telling the truth unless you know I'm not scum?

[charter]

I'm just saying. It seems really fishy to me that your two biggest suspects went to confirmed town after one of them made a claim.

[charter]

Don't forget Artem's case on Lowell which we're still waiting Lowell to repond to.

I actually think that Lowell is more likely to be scum than Panzer. (or Lynx for that matter).

I did forget about this one. I'll review Lowell later.

[charter]

No. Claiming cop doesn't excuse your scumminess.

[charter]

I didn't say I'd lynch you immediately, but I wouldn't become your sheep and follow you mindlessly. I know that claiming cop is BS cause I've claimed phony roles as scum before and I've been beat as town by scum that claimed cop.

Also, how can you Fos people for not making cases when you're not doing anything at all but this pointless back and forth between me and you.

[charter]

Panzer or MR (or mayyyyybe Lynx) are all acceptable lynches in my eyes.

[charter]

Me saying who I'm going to hide behind again will be idiotic. You will be targetted for a kill and we will both die (if you are indeed town).

Fos for trying to get me killed so obviously.

[charter]

We don't know if we have a doc... Plus then it later sets up a perfect scum claim if we don't and neither of us die. Also, anyone who volunteers for investigation is almost universally a GF or some form of investigation immune role.

[charter]

Yes, his latest admitting lurking isn't helping either.

[charter]

Eh, I reread Lowell. He's a lurker for sure but I don't see much of a case on him right now.

[charter]

I voted Panzer for the same reasons as yesterday. Him lurking at deadline was a relatively minor addition to them. I guess there's something against Lowell, I Just dont think it's that strong.

[charter]

Eh, I reread Lowell. He's a lurker for sure but I don't see much of a case on him right now.

So you have no problems FoSing and voting panzer for lurking, but not Lowell?

ohohohohohohoh BURN charter BURN!!!!

Yeah, that hurt me bad?

Mod, what day/time is our deadline?

Deadline for day two is Thursday February 19th, at 11:59 AM PST

[charter]

unvote, vote lynx

Make some slip ups for me.

[charter]

Lynx, basically every reason you gave is not really true. He's given suspicions and opinions on others. He made a case against you yesterday.

I'm actually inclined to believe he's a PGO. I'm a Hider which is a very uncommon role and PGO is a fairly uncommon role. I wouldn't be suprised to see others.

[charter]

Artem, I said panzer lurking isn't helping him, that's not why I'm suspicious of him. I'm suspicious of him for his crackpot theories day one that don't make sense, and how he has now flipped on them completely (and how he flipped a bunch yesterday).

[charter]

Artem, I said panzer lurking isn't helping him, that's not why I'm suspicious of him. I'm suspicious of him for his crackpot theories day one that don't make sense, and how he has now flipped on them completely (and how he flipped a bunch yesterday).

Sure, your current vote on him doesn't hinge on lurking, but here's you using lurking as a scummy point during Day 1:

As a side note, Panzer has been lurking lately, likely waiting for the Xd thing to blow over.

Welcome to the thing I find most suspicious about him now. Ever since his vote on Xdaamo, he's said nothing about Xdaamo. He's just sitting tight on the wagon. Now it's almost deadline and he's still lurking (though he did say he was away) but it doesn't excuse him clinging to his Artem+charter scumbuddies but voting Xdaamo terrible logic. He gets called out on it and all of a sudden just drops it.

...that's not what I was getting at. What I was saying was scummy was how he didn't say anything about Xdaamo after he voted him. He did the same thing with everyone else he's voted. I agreed with the "waiting for the Xd thing to blow over" not the lurking lately, which I even said in my post that Panzer said he wasn't going to be here. I don't care about the quantity of Panzer's posts, but the quality of a lot of them I find to be lacking.

As a side note, Darox is a chronic lurker.

[charter]

Darox, if Lynx is scum, who would you say are his buddies?

[charter]

unvote, vote Panzer

He is scum. End of story.

[charter]

Because I'm not giving up on my scumdar this game. It just slaughtered me in another game, not going to make the same mistake again.

And I've already pointed out how you're scum, you didn't really explain it, my guess is because you're scum and there is no logical town explaination.

[charter]

No, it's not a pissing contest. I made a valid case and I think it holds water and I'm not going to give up so easily this game.

I only voted lynx for pressure, and he didn't react bad to it in my eyes.

[charter]

Actually, lynx did react kind of poorly.

[charter]

I forgot how long ago I put my vote on you. I actually went back and looked after that first statement and found that since then you've not been very impressive so I corrected myself.

And yes, Panzer's repeating pissing contest doesn't make that actually the case. And I've used appeals like that as town and scum before, so it's not going to make me drop my case. I wish I had played mafia with Panzer before, but I've only ever played with Lowell in this crowd.

I guess to clarify a little, it's not that Lynx can't be scum, but I feel there's a stronger case on Panzer, if Lynx is scum I have no clue who his partners are and if Lynx is town and we lynch him I just see us crash and burning in a big firey mess.

[charter]

Tubby, they are both scummy. Panzer is just scummier. And as to why not focus on lynx and go after panzer tomorrow? I've been going after panzer for a while, no one is interested. I don't see this changing tomorrow, especially if Lynx is a mislynch, that means that tomorrow is almost certainly lylo and I don't see him getting lynched tomorrow.

And those two scenarios leave out the possible Panzer scum and Lynx town. I think this is right up there with both being scum. Why do you not even consider this one?

[charter]

If anyone cannot see why Panzer is scum, then you are blind.

[charter]

Never mind, that wasn't a nice thing to say. We're all friends here. What I meant was, Lowell has the correct summary of Panzer's latest actions.

[charter]

Actually, Lowell doesn't fully cover it. Panzer goes from suspecting me and Artem yesterday, then accepts our defenses, then suspects us for the same original reasons again. Today he believes my claim, says I'm town, now he's flip flopped again as soon as there is a small hint that I might be able to be lynched and when the Lynx wagon is running out of steam.

Also, his reasons for voting me are just OMGUS, I said why I switched back, because another game ended, it really didn't have much to do with this game, just boosted my confidence in my reads. I never found lynx more suspicious...

Honestly, those not voting Panzer, what do you make of his numerous flip flops? Theres only a little more than a week until deadline so we should pick up the pace (MR, dan, Lowell...)

[charter]

Ok, I'm still going to do a bigger read tomorrow (1:04 am right now) but I thought I'd start a little now and I caught this.

Assuming Xdaamo isn't scum, like I said, I'd bet money Artem is town.

Charter, I agree that you had reasons to bet money Artem was town and your hider claim is potentially proof of this if you didn't lie it. What I'm interested in is why you had to assume Xdaamno was town to bet Artem was town. Unless I've missed you making a scum pair of Xda and Artem, I don't see much of a reason to assume anything of Xda to bet money on Artem's alignment.

I wouldn't have been anywhere near as sure of Artem if Xdaamo flipped scum. I probably would have hid behind someone different if Xdaamo was scum.

[charter]

Look, can't convince people to vote me so he's gotta go back to Lynx...

I see this turn of events as, Charter sees the wagon stalling and jumps on me to distance himself from another possible townie lynch.

This also reads to me that you know Lynx is town... I'm not on Lynx's wagon because you're much more suspicious.

[charter]

I mean, it's too late, you've already incriminated yourself. Maybe if you were to scumhunt and find someone that is even scummier than you, but you just keep throwing your vote around whenever another possible lynch target surfaces.

[charter]

What are you talking about, only other possible lynch is me. that's nonsense. That's not even trying to find scum.

@Artem, I'll review Lowell again, but I don't count lurking in general against people. Yes this has burned me in the past, might be the same case now, but what do you make of all Panzer's flipping and flopping?

[charter]

And I've already explained why I changed from Xd to you, if you're trying to say that was scummy of me, bring it on. Lynx already tried to pull that and was shot down. I would love more fuel for my case.

As for why I changed from lynx to you, how can you forget how I firstly changed off you to lynx? Did you even read my reasoning for voting lynx? All I said was make some slip ups for me. Clearly this was a pressure vote since he seemed to be coming under fire, I figured some more pressure would be good for him, coupled with no one voting you. You've always been my biggest suspect since the end of day one.

[charter]

You say bullshit, I say go read the damn thread. Tomatoe Tomaato.

[charter]

Yeah, Panzer is scum, good work MR. (I feel like I pointed that out after both of his quotes, but you do a good job making it very clear that Panzer is contradicting himself so badly)

Can we get prods?

I Think dan needs one but I haven't checked, he's just wayyyyy too quiet.

Danchaofan and Artifex prodded

[charter]

3 players aren't here. Artem is stuck on Lowell. I'm at 3 votes that's 7 out of the 10. The rest are on Lynx. I disagree that Lowell is scummy, I believe charter is scum and Lynx is scummy as well. How this game has progressed, it's narrowed the suspects to 3 people and 2 that I'd lynch(third being myself). I would love to lynch charter, but that's simply not gonna happen. No one else thinks he is scummy and I don't feel like kicking a dead horse. That leaves Lynx or Lowell. I've played with Lowell before and he is a chronic lurker. Other then a couple of mildly scummy post, he's not so bad. He's nowhere near as scummy as lynx. Lynx gets my vote, because voting myself would be stupid. Only other person that is mildly scummy is Ruck, who I'm contemplating making a case for. Have to re-read him and decide if he is worse then ruck.

Also, that quote that is being pasted around is a typo I didn'tcatch until now, it says it should say "me and lynx" not "you and lynx". "You and lynx" doesn't make sense because chater isn't a possible lynch at this moment or when i said that. Thanks for burning me on a typo though Ruck. I need to PREVIEW button more.

I feel like this alleviates that one contradiction, but creates two more new problems. I think MR brought them up.

After Panzer flips scum, MR has stocked up on town points, it's not too late to get yours too!

[charter]

After Panzer flips scum, MR has stocked up on town points, it's not too late to get yours too!

Dude, he is in the third spot. He's jumping on me while the wagon is hot and picking an easy target. His jump was incredibly scummy and if I'm scum I would hope you would look at that as him bussing me.

WOW. If you are scum? You saying that is good enough for me. Looks like Panzer just confessed he's scum.

[charter]

I think I'd like to hear a claim. We didn't do that with Xdaamno and I feel that was a fairly big mistake for us.

by his threatening to self hammer, it was apparant he was not a power role.

[charter]

I mean, Panzer can claim if he wants, it's not going to erase all his scummy actions, and since I know he's not a cop or anything, I really don't forsee any role he's going to claim that will make it so not lynching him outweighs lynching him.

[charter]

What happens if a hider hides behind a PGO MOD?

No questions regarding how any hypothetical roles would interact will be answered (apart from this answer)

[charter]

Tracker. I tracked charter that's intially why I thought he was cleared because I got a no result. I then started thinking I may have been role blocked.

So much bullshit. Doesn't fit with your actions either. Plus, hider and tracker together? Please, we'd be having more than one kill a night if that's the case. That's an obscene amount of investigative power for the town for just one kill a night.

ALSO, PANZER IS LYING SCUM. His thinking their being a roleblocker doesn't reflect what he said in game.

[charter]

Artem, what do you think of his claim and how it does not fit with what he's been saying in thread?

[charter]

I'm all for getting Lowell to contribute more. My vote is on panzer for much the same reason as Lynx. Lowell could be scum, but his lurking simply doesn't give us as much to work with as panzer has. Regardless of panzer's scumminess, though, I'd also like to know why charter was so certain panzer wasn't a cop or anything.

That would be like two cops in a mini which I'm assuming isn't the case here.

Also note how Panzer made no mention of his action failing because I was a hider. It's almost like he didn't have a night choice at all!

[charter]

So it's an assumption, not something that you know as you said earlier. I know this isn't much of a point, but it bugs me when people claim to be certain of something in this game when it's nothing more than speculation. Don't get me wrong, you're probably right as 2+ investigative roles would be a bit broken, but it's still something you can't actually know unless you are also the giver of roles.

I claim my suspicions as fact all the time.

698- No, it doesn't look like derailment.
699- This said nothing.

[charter]

Well, you can't just assume that. For example, when I claim Artem is town, Artem is 100% town. It is a fact. When I say Panzer is scum, that's just my thoughts.

[charter]

I can clarify if you ask me to when I state something as fact if it is indeed a fact or just my thoughts.

[charter]

Where is dan in terms of being replaced? I get the feeling that he can't handle the pressure of his buddy about to be lynched.

[charter]

Actually, I could vote for dan too. He's posting plenty in other games, but not in this one. I think it's cause he's Panzer's buddy (possibly Lowell's too) as lowell was my third pick for scum last night.

[charter]

If we don't lynch panzer today I am hiding behind him at night. I am that sure that he is scum that only I will die and you guys can lynch him tomorrow. (and then dan the day after)

[charter]

Crap I forgot about that. No, pretty sure I'd be banned if I told you who I hid behind.

[charter]

Yeah, I knew I wasn't crazy when I suggested it.

I also think dan has used all of his stalling for this game.

[charter]

Lynx your input in my night actions will not be considered, same with everyone else but Artem's. You're still highly suspect, especially with posts like that one. How have I proved myself to be an active scumhunter? No scum have been killed yet. And I can't imagine we have two scum. Way too much power for that already.

[charter]

Yes there is sense. I would take a Panzer lynch much sooner rather than later. You've already made your thoughts known Artem and those are the only ones that even have a chance of being considered (other than Panzers in case we do lynch him and by some time space continuim rift he is town, but then he won't self hammer himself). In short, I'm perfectly happy for today to be over now, but I've been ready for that since the beginning of today.

[charter]

Darox is not being hidden behind by me. I'm not sure if you're just confused there MR or throwing forth terrible ideas on purpose.

I'm guessing I die regardless of Darox's alignment if I hide behind him.

[charter]

IF PANZER FLIPS TOWN I WILL HIDE BEHIND LOWELL.

If I'm not alive tomorrow, make sure Dan gets a thorough looking at.

@Darox, I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's worth the risk.

[charter]

vote dan

Anyone want to fess up to that second kill?

Case on dan soon.

[charter]

I kind of want to just lynch tubby. I will have to review and see who of tubby, lowell, and dan is most likely to be scum. (almost certainly dan still, but I haven't reread in a while)

Though, if tubby is not town aligned I guess we can wait until we've killed three scum, then if he's still alive and the game isn't over, we can policy lynch him I suppose.

Tubby, why on earth did you think Lynx was scum after seeing Panzer flip scum? Why not kill dan or Artifex or Lowell?

[charter]

Welcome Freeko.

[charter]

I think tubby's claim is real. He's taking a big chance if he's an SK. Too big a chance, I think.

True, but his choice makes no sense if he is town.

well to me i thought lynx had more scummy moments, like he was flying just a shade to far under the radar for my liking. like he was trying to hard to do just enough to be town

You can hardly say Lynx was flying under the radar. He was one of the top posters. You're flying under the radar.

And lowell raises a good point, why indeed?

[charter]

Yeah, I'll reveal later today. There are good reasons for not doing it now.

MOD, is dan getting replaced?

dan is pretty much obvscum. I'm about to make a case against him, but I think Lowell has the right reasons with his vote.

Danchaofan prodded. One more and I will consider forcibly replacing him.

[charter]

But as BSG said (and lynx directly before him who may have given him the idea) he has nothing to worry about thus no need to claim as all the votes on him are random or "let's see what happens" votes.

Pz's post was in response to my question about whether l-2 is possibly distinguishable because it was generally claim time, not about whether BSG should be claiming.

Artem, (b) is Wifom?

Lowell, what do you think of artem/BSGs banter? Is it insignificant because there was no distancing associated with it?

Buddies with Panzer.

Whats wrong with panzer again? Most of your post seemed to address artem.

Just quoting this as a reminder to myself if panzer is revealed scum.

Game. Set. Match.

182- Hopped onto Xdaamo, didn't say anything.
398- Says nothing up until this post. Distancing from Panzer and backpedaling on Xdaamo.

End day one. Really does nothing about Xdaamo after his vote.

Your accusing Dan and I of being scum when we haven't buddyed at all.

I find this a wierd way of defending. Saying they haven't buddied, gives me the impression that they are scum together but Panzer didn't think they had buddied (I don't think they had either, I think they were distancing). I think this is a pretty strong link right here.

618- Horridly scummy of tubby.

623- More scumminess from tubby.

624- The only thing that makes me question tubby being scum is Panzer seems to latch on to tubby's thoughts.

After Panzer flips scum, MR has stocked up on town points, it's not too late to get yours too!

Dude, he is in the third spot. He's jumping on me while the wagon is hot and picking an easy target. His jump was incredibly scummy and if I'm scum I would hope you would look at that as him bussing me.

I don't know what to make of this. Panzer has now flipped scum, so do we look at MR for bussing him? I think not yet.

Dan just keeps coming back with promises to post, but never does. I have no clue where he stands on anyone alive. I realize this is probably a shitty case, but he hasn't given anything to work with (barring a few statements linking himself with Panzer)

As for his partner, I'd say Artifex/freeko. I need to go back and look at how the wagons at the end of day one went before I put too much stock in this.

[charter]

Dan, I asked if anyone was responsible for the second kill too. Are you saying that makes me rolefishing scum too? If so, try again.

I would add 774 to reasons to be suspicious of dan. I found neither of these "fishings" as scummy in the least. I was actually suprised I wasn't asked who I hid behind earlier.

[charter]

How is that buddying?

I'm not saying you're buddying, I'm just saying you're scumbuddies with Panzer.

Two posts before that I posted I was suspicious of xd's lies.

Just saying "why the lies?" counts as saying nothing against Xdaamo.

You backpedaled Xd more than I did. The argument that you switched your vote and I didn't is fallible because although I my suspicions of pz increased and my suspicions of xd decreased, overall I was still more suspicious of Xd.

Saying 'charter did something more than me' isn't a defense of your actions. I'm not saying you're suspicious because you didn't change your vote. I said you were backpedaling by saying you were less suspicious of Xdaamo and distancing from Panzer by saying you were more suspicious of him. Your post there was a pretty clear cut case of scumbuddy distancing.

Half of your argument so far has been me "buddying" with pz (which we haven't). So, the simplest way to refute your argument is to indicate we haven't been buddying.

I think there has been a misunderstanding. When I say you're buddies with Panzer I mean scumbuddies, not that you guys were buddying.

I've only looked at lowell's posts in isolation so I missed your fish, but yes I do think it's scummy. It's also awkward how you are defending lowell, what makes you think he is worth defending? what makes you think you're so town that whatever you do is deemed so townie that if anyone else were to do it we would consider it townies as well?

I argued Panzer over everyone else for a long time. Panzer flipped scum.

[charter]

I think it's cause freeko is Panzer and dan's partner. I think lowell had the right course of action with not acknowledging it at all.

[charter]

MR, who are your top two suspects?

[charter]

Just for fun, I will do some analysing the voting patterns at the end of day one. Names of dead townies are crossed out because they won't help us find scum.

Votecount

Xdaamno (5) -

Lynx the Antithesis

, Danchaofan, Panzerjager, Charter, Lowell
Artem (1) -

BSG

Master Ruck (1) -

Xdaamno

Darox (1) - Artifex
Lowell (1) -

Artem

Lynx the Antithesis (1) - Darox

Not Voting (2) - Tubby216, Master Ruck

This is the votecount five days until deadline.
302- tubby votes Xdaamo
317- I ask if anyone would vote Panzer with me
318- Xdaamo votes Panzer
327- Artem votes Panzer (X-6, P-2)
328- I vote Panzer (X-5, P-3)
341- Darox votes Panzer (X-5, P-4) Also, I'm seeing a lot of Lowell/Panzer ties I'd forgotten about
Two days until deadline. MR, Artifex, and BSG were all wasting their votes.
387- Artem votes Xdaamo (X-6, P-2)
456- Xdaamo votes me (X-6, P-1)

I am actually thinking massclaim. I want to massclaim before I actually provide my analysis of this and who I think is scum. If I give my analysis now, it will definately affect claims scum make, so I think it's best they claim first, then we can question them afterwards. We have already had tubby, myself, and Darox claim. At this point I don't think we can have any more power roles that we desperately need to keep alive. I think any gains from any potential power roles not claimed will be minimal if any at all.

So, thoughts on massclaiming?

[charter]

Gah, I botched it. 387 left Panzer at three votes, and 456 left him at two.

[charter]

I don't know exactly who is scum. I've got it narrowed down to two out of three or four people.

It's often useful to give scummy players a chance to claim. Someone could counterclaim them. Just because someone claims and no one counters though doesn't mean they shouldn't be lynched. Claiming something doesn't make you town.

[charter]

Explaining this away before we do it pretty much negates any benefit we could get from it because then scum will know what to say or not say. If everyone else is adverse to massclaiming now I might explain it, but else I'm going to hold on to it until after massclaim.

[charter]

At some point we are going to massclaim. I'll explain after that if I'm still alive, if not, I will try and remember until after the game.

[charter]

Darox can you point out his slip for us please?
Also what do you think of massclaim now?

[charter]

What do people think of massclaiming now?

People keep not answering this for some reason, so I made it bigger. I think we should.

[charter]

I guess it makes sense for dan to claim first, then popcorn from there?

[charter]

Darox claimed PGO, and tubby claimed one shot vig. I claimed hider. Your turn freeko.

[charter]

You got any results to go with that claim there freeko?

[charter]

I think it's best if freeko claims now, but that's because I find the chance of freeko being scum a great deal higher than MR being scum.

[charter]

Thanks.

[charter]

It doesn't freaking matter. Someone just claim. Both of you are so scummy it isn't funny.

[charter]

V/LA for a couple days

[charter]

freeko's claim is pretty weak. I'm wondering if scum would try claiming the same role over and over.

Anyhow, dan is still scum. Someone needs to hammer him.

[charter]

Yeah, I hid behind Darox. I believed his claim and after he said he didn't think he would kill me I thought it was worth the risk because last night he was the only one I gave over like a 20% chance of being town. I'm just going to keep hiding behind him, I don't mind admitting this because taking out another scum is well worth it. Plus, if we lynch dan today and he's scum, then I'm pretty sure town can't lose, so yeah... That's what I'm hoping for.

[charter]

Is there anything left to say today? Can someone finish off dan for us, or is it just the three of us that are suspicious of him? If so let me know and I will try and convince you.

[charter]

Damnit.

unvote

Damnit. I'm going to reread this before anyone gets lynched. I keep second guessing myself and wondering if dan could be a townie.

[charter]

You said you were a hider when you're a tracker. Accidently claiming the wrong role makes it seem like you didn't look at a PM when you claimed, which makes it seem like you invented it.

[charter]

Yeah, I mean you said you were a watcher when you're a tracker.

[charter]

vote dan

No idea why I was second guessing myself a few days ago, reread and he is strongly linked to panzer and is scummy all on his own.

[charter]

dan, I've already said why I think you're scum. I feel at this point I'm just beating a dead horse.

[charter]

Nah, I really have no clue as to who is town if dan is town. I really don't know if he's scum either, so I'm going to keep going behind Darox.


If I die tonight, forget everything I ever said.

[charter]

MR, I've never seen a PGO that didn't kill everyone who targetted him, including those targetting him for a kill. If dan is scum, I'm pretty sure we can't lose because scum can't target darox because they will die and lose. They can't target me because it won't do anything. Therefore we can get to lylo with darox, myself, and the last scum, and town will win. If dan isn't scum, then yes they can kill darox and me tonight, and that will hurt town, but also bring them down to one. Either way, I see it as our best course of action.

[charter]

I don't think we're going to see that scenario MR.

[charter]

Why do you want to know Lowell?

[charter]

freeko, got any tracker results for the class? You know how this looks for you, right?

[charter]

Well, I think it's Lowell. Lowell, you're scum, any last words before we lynch you?

What I don't understand is how the fuck darox got killed. Anyone think there is four mafia in this game maybe? If so today is LYLO...

[charter]

GOT IT

Ok, question for everyone. Do you think that I am scum or town? Once everyone answers I will reveal the gamebreaking strategy for town to win.

[charter]

Ok, we will see which one of you changes after I reveal a plan resulting in guarenteed town win later today. I'll give you some time to sweat about it and plan your squirming.

[charter]

Anyone else want to back out too?

[charter]

Ok, well, here was my plan. This is from my point of view.
I am town.
tubby is town.
That means it's two out freeko, MR, Lowell. Now, it makes zero sense to lynch MR before freeko.

At first I was going to suggest lynching Lowell first, then freeko if Lowell flips town. Lowell has been far scummier I think.

However, I've been thinking, if freeko is lying, and we lynch him first and he flips scum, and the game isn't over, then I'm not really sure what to do. He could be protecting MR, or he could be setting him up. After saying this, tubby is 100% going to be NK'ed tonight.

So, I want opinions on whether we should lynch Lowell first, or freeko first, and why you want to go about doing this. Also, if you're freeko or Lowell, you need to say what will give the town the best chance of winning, even if that means lynching you first.

I'm pretty sure there is a "best" course of action in terms of who we lynch today, so just want to see if anyone else see's it the same as me. I think it's lynch freeko (though I would normally want Lowell, I'm just pretty much sure that lynching freeko will result in a guarenteed win) then if he flips town, lynch Lowell. Thoughts?

[charter]

tubby, what is wrong with lynching Lowell tomorrow if we lynch freeko today and he turns town?

[charter]

Well, lowell is scum. To hell with the plan.

vote Lowell

SUSPECTING MR BEFORE FREEKO IS IMPOSSIBLE. Freeko says MR didn't perform an action last night. MR could have made a kill, but then freeko would know and is lying about it. Or, freeko could have made a kill and is lying anyway.

So yeah, it's probably lowell because if he was town he would have thought of that.

[charter]

FREEKO, do you realize that if you are town, THE ONLY possible thing for you to do is lynch lowell?
If you even hint at suspicion of MR, you should burn in the fiery chasms of hell. You've said you think I'm town. I've said tubby is town. That leaves only one person for you.

MASTER RUCK, do you also realize that if you are town, that it's either lowell or freeko that is scum? You've said you think I'm town. I've said tubby is town. That means it's either freeko or lowell, so it's lynch one today (Lowell now since he's admitted to being scum) and freeko tomorrow if the game isn't over by some miracle.

[charter]

What now?

[charter]

tubby, the reason why I asked everyone if they thought I was town is because my plan WILL work. There is NO chance of not winning if we lynch freeko today and when he flips town, Lowell tomorrow. Scum have surely realized this by now, and they will change their position on it. Lowell has done this with his backpedaling earlier.

If you guys all were to seriously decide that I'm scum and lynch me, then you had better lynch Lowell tomorrow. I'm not sure how you can possibly argue this when I've been pushing for scum to be lynched literally the whole game.

I'm fine with abandoning my plan because in my eyes the chance of Lowell being town and both freeko and MR being scum is almost zero.

[charter]

Freeko, if you don't vote Lowell in your next post I will vote you and will not move until you are lynched today.

[charter]

I hid behind tubby, he is not scum. That is why I ignore this as a possibility, and yes, you are definately overthinking.

If you lynch lowell today, tubby will be killed at night, then you can lynch me tomorrow.

[charter]

Even if tubby isn't killed at night and MR is, you can still lynch me tomorrow because it will be the same situation with me and tubby as it is with you and MR right now.

[charter]

If he was, I'd be dead.

[charter]

If somehow the game isn't over after we lynch Lowell, then I think whoever is alive tomorrow needs to rely soley on scumhunting, cause I think that means there's someone left who is undetectable through night actions.

[charter]

Ok, I was just not going to say this, but I will. I've lied about my role so much it's not even funny. The reason I have done this is to trick scum. Now, I know what you are thinking, town doesn't trick scum, scum trick town, that's how this game works. Well, I will point to exhibit A, Darox. I feel I can come clean now, because Lowell has already incriminated himself.

Night one, I hid behind Artem.
Night two, I did no action.
Night three, I did no action.

I do not need to hide behind someone each night. I lied about this day two because it will not affect any townie choices in the slightest. It does, however, greatly affect scum choices. As I said after I claimed day two, me and the scum get to play outguess, and I won that battle greatly. I lied because I was not sure if I would use it again in the future when I claimed, but scum thinking I would would hinder then, thus helping town. And I weighed the risks of me dying versus some other role, and hider is about as close to cop (in my opinion the role most valuable to cop) as you can get, so I decided that the risk of killing other power roles outweighed the risk of hider dying.

Now, I've claimed tubby to be town today, but I did that with Darox yesterday (though that was to trick scum into killing Darox, and it worked...). No, I'm not positive like I was with Artem, but I am nearly sure. As SK, you CAN NOT out yourself like tubby did. The logical explanation is he is indeed a one shot vig or a JOAT or something. Tubby claiming responsibility for that kill guarantees he cannot win as a SK, so I assume that he is indeed town aligned.

So yes, you both are thinking this through quite clearly, and if either of you was scum, you would have hammered already because like MR says, you would be thinking you have a 50% chance of winning. The reality is, I'm not going to hide again tonight, and there will be a tomorrow, and town will win.

[charter]

Ok, now that I said that, forget all my "forget everything I ever said comments" those were there in case scum figured out I wasn't hiding, killed me, and you guys assumed that darox or tubby were town, cause I had said so, when I wasn't actually sure.

There is nothing left to say. I bet my entire mafia career Lowell is scum. Stop, Hammer Time!

[charter]

Ha. Freeko is scum, and he's alone.

1) The only way MR could be scum is if freeko is lying. In which case they'd BOTH be scum. They've BOTH had the opportunity to hammer me for the win, which they haven't done.

2) If only one of MR or freeko is scum, it has to be freeko (as charter said and I now agree with), unless there are some strange mechanics we're not understanding.

lynch freeko today.

^^^ remember this if I'm dead.

Hammer yourself. We lynch freeko tomorrow. For you this is a guarenteed win.

Really guys. The next person that posts needs to hammer Lowell, even if it's Lowell. It's really this simple.

[charter]

I'd wager I do.

[charter]

Hmmm, freeko, got some results to give?

Obviously no one vote because it is LYLO..

[charter]

tubby, what the hell, unvote.

[charter]

actually, guess it doesn't matter, if I was scum I would have just hammered.

[charter]

So...
That means it's either tubby or freeko.

[charter]

Cause it's LYLO and I'm not about to speedlynch someone before they even say anything.

[charter]

Wow freeko, you've totally blown this game. You're trying to pin being scum on me? You needed to try pinning it on tubby if you wanted a shot at winning.

I just showed that I couldn't POSSIBLY be scum or else this game would be over.

Gonna go ahead with a

vote freeko

. Should have just stuck to the FOOLPROOF plan of winning I came up with yesterday...

[charter]

Good game everyone, thanks for modding Llama.

About halfway through this game, I realized that hider is actually an extremely powerful town role. I'd never played in a game with one before so I'd never paid it any notice. I pm'ed this to Llama, but he didn't answer (I'm assuming cause he's the mod), but I think these are some interesting discussion points.

Do you think it would be a good idea if you were cop to claim hider (as in a future game, obviously not this one)? I was debating about it, you're essentially adding the benefits of being a hider (scum never trying to kill you) with the safety of being a cop. This solves virtually all problems of a cop claiming (being nightkilled or roleblocked by scum) and lets a potential doctor protect elsewhere.

Plus, if you're actually a cop, you can investigate scum, then once you nail one or two, come clean. Sure you could get lynched for lying, but if it isn't LYLO then afterwards, they know who some scum are. I'd never really thought of this, but it seems like it might be able to work.

I must thank you putting the hider role in this game, I'd never realized its power until actually having it. I also think it's a good idea to lie and tell scum you have to use your power every night (especially if you're a cop) so that way scum don't even bother wasting their resources on you (and if you're cop, then a roleblock or kill is almost always better off on another townie).

I wonder all this because cops are in ~75% of games whereas a hider is in less than ~10% so it seems like a viable cop strategy to me as long as mods don't start putting in hiders all the time.

[charter]

@Llama, interesting idea for setup. Don't think I've seen a mafia tracker (maybe one that died day one in the fam guy game). I actually think this setup would have been very interesting with a PGO instead of a doctor.

@Darox, never trusting you again

If I'm scum in a 3-man again I'm full out bussing my partner day 1 and have my other partner claim pgo... It might work...

I dunno, I wouldn't recommend this. Bussing day one normally doesn't pay off. If there actually is a PGO in the game, and you're countered, it would be hilarious, but the town will have no problem lynching both them. What if you have one scum claim PGO, then have another counterclaim it day one? One will get lynched, but the other might be very believable then.