667: Random C9 (Game Over!)

[Vi]

Hello everyone.

*Avinyl - Stuff like Post 81, where he says "hmm maybe not Moospiker" but doesn't say why, and how pretty much all of his posts follow Moospiker around makes me wonder.

*JDodge - Defensive? I think so, but not without justification. What strikes me is that he calls for Moospiker's lynch out of (sort of) nowhere - in fact, almost none of what he has said really had much to do with the game at all, and he has gone so far as to say that basically nothing has happened in this game outside the miscellaneous feuding with the person I replaced.

*Moospiker - Scummy and nearly useless - a stupid noob, to use his term.

*Charter - Aside from calling for Moospiker's lynch so blatantly and the "coming around" bit, seems clean.

*afatchic - Very mildly positive read, but for some reason I feel worried when I look through your posts...

*starrie - This sentence is as informative as the material from which I have to get a read on this player slot.

*KrisReizer - Um, riiiiiiiiiight... No more of that.

'Anyone feel misrepresented so far?

[Vi]

@Moospiker: A good part of why you're at L-1 (the "not doing anything productive this whole game" part) persists because you refuse to help yourself. You've stopped defending yourself, the only lynch you seem to advocate is your own... I'm not a fan of jumping into a game and hammering immediately, so I'll give you a single chance to say something meaningful. Use my analysis as a starting point if you have to.

Gathering from Vi's read on you, you should claim now.

What does my read have to do with it? Should Moospiker have claimed anyway?

[Vi]

It would appear that my analysis is chopped liver, since the only response I got from it was "Yer gon' get NK'd... *snicker*".

@Moospiker: That's nice. It's also not what I asked for. Even if you don't know who the scum are, take others' ideas (namely mine) and build on them however you can. There's no reason to stay at Square 1 and throw up your hands in confusion.

[Vi]

@Moospiker: Why?

@afatchic: It probably has to do with how recently almost everything you've said can be summed up as "I agree with charter". Considering I'm not really thrilled with charter's recent belligerence/refusal to say anything except Don't/Lynch Moospiker, that's not a good path to walk.

@JDodge and charter: Both of youse said you didn't buy Moospiker's breadcrumb, but unvoted anyway. Considering you were both adamant about Moospiker's lynch as recently as Page 6, what swayed you?

@Mod: Should avinyl be prodded?

[Vi]

[@afatchic:]

Why did you only express your dislike for his asking a claim after I already did?

[@charter:]

QFT.

[etc.]

[@charter:]

well that seems like a decent reason right there. haha
but yeah this game has come to a near halt, so im going to spice things up a bit. Vote: Moospiker.

[with charter]

[@charter:]

QFT.

[etc. Repeated in afatchic 150]

---------------------

his buddying up to Moo seems incredibly awkward and off.

This is in a separate category. For claiming to be suspicious of Moospiker after this post, you didn't do a great job of showing it beforehand.

--------------------

Vi who do you find most suspicious at the moment?

Telling people my suspicions just makes me a target.

...But I'll take one for the team. Avinyl is my stated top suspect, though I should do a reread to see if this needs changing. Second place is a tie between you and charter.

[Vi]

@Vi, I see my name a lot in 161, but I cannot understand anything in the first part of that post.

Basically, those are the places where afatchic agrees entirely with you (post numbers provided for reference). I edited out the text for the sake of making it look less like tl;dr filler; apologies.

[Vi]

Telling people my suspicions just makes me a target.

I feel quite uneasy about this statement. Vi why do you seem reluctant to expresses suspicions? You do know that is what the game mainly entails right?

That was blatant mockery of charter and afatchic.

i was answering a question, while giving my own opinions. if everyone seems to think this, maybe its the truth. have you ever thought about that?

Oh, so the people calling you out for parroting people are onto the truth, right?~
Yes, I know that was out of context. With that said, I'm not sure if I can sustain the line I was following about you parroting others, so for now I'm willing to drop it.

I'd like to vote avinyl, but for the sake of safety I'm waiting for one more post from him to answer the accusations against him.

[Vi]

I'd like to vote avinyl, but for the sake of safety I'm waiting for one more post from him to answer the accusations against him.

Reasons for this? (wanting to vote him)
You haven't mentioned him since your first post despite expressing suspicions of others.

I've been meaning to do a reread on it, as I said before, so here's where I'm at:

---------

Against him

c) KrisReizers strange vote of JDodge while being ready to jump off if he would be lynched. I could understand if it was a first vote, but it was already halfways to lynch.

Unvote KrisReizer. I didn't notice starrie voted

[KR to L-1]

after the votecount.

On another unrelated note, I currently find Moospiker scummy, partly gut, partly because of the unsubstantiated demand for Krisreizer to claim. I think he currently has 2 votes already, so FoS Moospiker.

Contradictions much? Even so, it's painfully obvious this guy doesn't vote people to L-1.

He posts a short "Moospiker's no longer scummy" message once, and then scoots back to him later - but doesn't vote him, only unvotes starrie. It would have been nice if he had told what exactly made him not/scummy... In addition, half of Avinyl's posts concern Moospiker and Moospiker alone, which is hardly scumhunting.

---------

For him

The lurker prod on starrie was a bit uncalled for (less so if you buy his philosophy of not putting people at L-1), but at the time Avinyl was posting somewhat frequently (until he flip->flopped on Moospiker).

Also ignores some questions directed at him (which I think he definately should have answered).

I only see one question asked to Avinyl - why did you flip on Moospiker? If that question were answered, some of the weight would be taken out of the accusations here.

-------------

So, these are the results of the reread I promised myself (and I should not have said that I would vote Avinyl without doing it). Avinyl basically slipped through the cracks, and what he did not do is more cause for concern than what he did. I do not know if his obvious unwillingness to put people at L-1 is an example of scumplay or bad play. Thus, I don't know what to do with Avinyl - he could show up and explain himself, and that would take care of a lot of the suspicion in my eyes. Because of this, I don't think voting him would be a good idea if he genuinely flaked.

[Vi]

Oh wow, backpedaling. It sounds like you really want us to lynch the claimed cop, charter.

And in post 68 there's more.

Just one more, and I already hit a variant of the question in my list. Avinyl has a bit to answer for, but it's not as much as you're making it out to be.

And last,

Gathering from Vi's read on you, you should claim now.

This is interesting in light of the L-1 claim question.

[Vi]

I'm still convinced he's guilty. Where have I backpedaled there? I said I'm not interested lynching him today, I even reaffirmed that in 179, where have I shown otherwise?

You're right on these counts, but I didn't like how when M-M raised a counterargument you dropped that line of thought immediately, saying you'd come back to it later. It makes sense now, but the way you said it caused me to raise a question.

But to shoot your point down anyway, do you not see a difference in asking for a claim on page 3, when one of the votes was from page 1, verses asking a claim on page 7 at L-1 and with others saying they are suspicious of the person?

I do. Dropping it.

-------

@Machiavellian-Mafia: Where are those quotes from?

Also,

Unvote: JDodge

[Vi]

My top two suspects, as stated last page Charter, are afatchic and Vi. Third would be Avinyl. Not so sure about him.

Of course, you're not going to do us the favor of explaining why. <_<

[Vi]

I want the order in which you suspect them, I know those are your top two.

What are you onto? Or rather, why are you asking for a scumlist when you yourself refuse to give opinions on the active players?

[Vi]

@Vi, I don't recall anyone asking for my top two suspects. If someone wants them, ask.

I think it's obvious who your top two suspects are (Avinyl and Moospiker). I was referring to your refusal to answer M-M's question. So, have a direct query - What is your opinion of afatchic, and the general mullings-about that he's parroting people/following you around?

[Vi]

I was referring to your refusal to answer M-M's question.

Which question?

What if I asked you "Can you give me your specific thoughts on afatchic, Vi, Avynil, MM, Moospiker, and JDodge?"

I'm still not liking the idea of playing so guardedly, and not just because it means I have to pry any given bit of info out of you. It's very difficult for me to get a read on you.
(However, I realize that you asked of Moospiker basically the quantity of information you have put out since I replaced in. 'Doesn't make things any easier for me.)

-------

Also, JDodge appears to be JDodging this game. But looking through afatchic's posts throughout the game, I see little to no scumhunting coming from him, and so I am inclined to agree with JDodge that afatchic needs to die. Time to place a vote.

Vote: afatchic

[Vi]

Indeed it doesn't, which is why I contend that the only thing resembling a stand that you have taken all day is one post against Avinyl that apparently wasn't worth a vote. Most of the rest of the stuff you have posted is short and weak, and not necessarily related to this particular game at all.

[Vi]

One could still say there's a tremendous fluff/stuff imbalance in your posts, but if you want to disregard that, try this.

You're

still

not scumhunting even now, and as you can see there is a larger and different cast of players to look at as of the last few pages. Not only are you not voting for anyone, it doesn't look like you're trying to find anyone to affix that vote to. You defend yourself when necessary, you agree with other people or make small talk about theory otherwise, and that's about it.

[Vi]

like i already said i haven't been doing much now due to school. if you wanna think thats a lie you are welcome to look in all my other games and see that i am falling behind int hem as well.

Your schoolwork hasn't stopped you from posting at all. I'd rather you post less frequently if it means you start investigating people.

Where is everyone else?

[Vi]

[Where is everyone else?]

Waiting for avinyl to get lynched.

You're not "everyone else"
Even so, you have no comment on my line of thought vs. afatchic?

Not impressed with KR's early postings. Some comments made me shake my head sadly.

(I know the feeling.)

How is Avinyl's absence a scumtell now that I have replaced him?

I really, really don't like this. M-M never said that Avinyl's absence was a scumtell.
Meanwhile, why not turn the general question around - What is your opinion on me, since I replaced KrisReizer?

[Vi]

I would like MM to answer please. I note your desire to answer on his behalf.

I note your desire to misrepresent people's positions and ignore my question

Meanwhile, why not turn the general

spirit of the

question around - What is your opinion on me, since I replaced KrisReizer?

[Vi]

How did I misrepresent you? I asked MM a question and you answered it for him. Or do you deny this? And, in addition, you attempted to immediately change the subject before the original question had even been answered by MM.
Can you explain why you did that?

I did not answer the question. You asked how Avinyl's absence was a scumtell. I noted that M-M never said that in the first place; and if I have to explain technically where the logical flaw is, that means you strawmanned M-M quite blatantly. Way to go!

I also don't understand how you dismissed my rather innocuous question - "what do you think of me, since I replaced the person you hated in your read" - as trying to "change the subject" as if it was impossible for M-M to respond to the question you posed to him.

My understanding - and it isn't just MM who articulated this - is that Avinyl's failure to respond to questions (although I don't actually see many questions unanswered - at least partly because he hasn't been posting recently so there is nothing for people to ask about) is making him look scummy.
Perhaps charter or Vi would like to comment more on that point.

Avinyl's failure to respond to questions was not the ONLY thing making him look scummy. If you think that was the only reason Avinyl is under suspicion, you are mistaken.

I'm surprised you had a positive read on afatchic initially. What made you mildly positive about him?

I didn't see anything obviously scummy in his posts. When I started seeing afatchic in action, I noticed why - there was nothing to see.

Does this still hold true for you now?

Right now, the point is moot. You're not leaving many positive impressions in my book as his replacement, to be sure.

Still think avinyl/eldarad is scum.

I'm leaning this way as well, but--

I'm not entirely convinced that there is as strong a afatchic-charter link as you suggest, but it is interesting that charter has tried pretty hard to lynch Avynil and has done very little in the way of scrutinising afatchic.

--this is a good point when met with--

Still haven't read it

[the talk against afatchic]

yet, will shortly though.

[Vi]

As a whole, I don't think there's really an 'afatchic is following charter' case, I'd say it's more of an 'afatchic is following everyone' case.

I agree; that fits the data better.

Mod: What is the prod status on JDodge?

[Vi]

MM answered the question for himself perfectly well, and along the lines that I expected, as it happens. You're entitled to comment on anything in-thread, but I still find it odd the manner in which you intervened on MM's behalf.

Your method of dodging my accusation (that is, that you straw manned M-M) is a bit on the tactless side. Do I

really

have to be so pedantic about this?

T

he accusation against you, brought on by the player known in this game as Vi: You misrepresented M-M's position by asking him how he thought Avinyl's action of not answering the accusations against him (due to Avinyl's flaking) was scummy, when M-M never indicated that this was so. Do you believe you are guilty of this misrepresentation, commonly referred to as "strawmanning"? If so, why? If not, why not?

You mean the question I answered at the first opportunity, once MM had answered my original question?

That you answered the question has nothing to do with it. You said that I was trying to change the subject by asking you a question that was somewhat in the same vein as the one you were asking M-M. CrapLogic.

-----

I gave terms under which Avinyl could potentially be cleared. His replacement is doing him no favors by attempting to avoid my accusations.

Unvote: afatchic
Vote: eldarad

[Vi]

Now, as it turns out, Avinyl's absence isn't a scumtell per se (and I never expected anyone to say it was) but that "his absence does not reduce the suspicion" which is a reasonable distinction for MM to make. But one that I wanted to hear MM say.

You mean he had not already made that distinction?

Other than that, what you're saying seems feasible... unless I'm not seeing something...

[Vi]

@charter: Why

don't

you think afatchic is scum?

[Vi]

So afatchic isn't scum because he doesn't fit your current theory...?
That sounds much, much more confident in your theory than someone with limited information should be. And that puts a bad flavor on this wagon...

Unvote: eldarad

for now.

[Vi]

Did I call you scum? No, no I didn't.

Moreover, the fact that your opinion on afatchic shouldn't have any bearing on eldarad's scumminess

is the point

- you're not pursuing afatchic

because

you believe eldarad and Moospiker are scum, a direct cause-effect relationship. Of course, this suspicion can't be wrong; pressuring or suspecting afatchic would be wasting time at best because he's Town by your current theory.

I'd sooner take a "suspect until proven cleared" approach to Mafia, personally.

[Vi]

Why aren't you questioning everyone then? The only possible explaination is that you have more information than everyone else.
I see your point, but you're not even trying to see mine. I don't see the need to question everyone I find even slightly suspicious. I've already said, I think AFC would be a fine lynch regardless of his alignment, but I think an eld lynch would net us scum.

I'm questioning everyone who has given me reason to question them.

And I do see your point - but I'm dismissing it out of hand as anti-Town. You are basically telling me up front that you have found both scum D1, with so much confidence that no more information is necessary and no information to the contrary (that isn't directly from eldarad or Moospiker) is admissible.

Vote: charter

----

I'm also wondering why JDodge is (still) JDodging this game. I wish I could do that with my games. *takes notes*

[Vi]

And you have nothing to say about what's being talked about right now? Real useful, that.

[Vi]

Necroposting this game :v
The deadline's a little less than a month away, but seriously.

Also

Right now I get paid to surf the internet and play mafia all day. It's a pretty sweet deal.

Wait, how does THAT work?~

[Vi]

eldarad: I do not believe I can go forward with my previous accusations against eldarad. M-M, your perspective on the objections I raised would be nice, since apparently I was defending you. Other than that, I'm hardly singing praises but I'm not tunnel-visioned against him either. He's going to stay under scrutiny.

JDodge: Needs a prod, replacement, or both. I acknowledge that it's very possible that he's basically leaving us to leave him out of our infighting, considering his posts were long on anger and short on (but not devoid of) scumhunting; but is that a better case to pursue than what we have on the remaining players?

@charter:

I'm fine with afatchic getting lynched, I don't think he's scum,

This is precisely why you're getting voted - your reason for thinking afatchic is notScum is because you say so, basically.

Moreover, I think you're effectively dodging eldarad's questions right now. I don't see where he has been "caught", although I don't agree with some of what he's trying to argue. Some things I would still like to see answers to--

What additional information would an afatchic lynch give us over and above knowledge of his alignment?
I don't understand how you can approve - or at least acquiesce to - the lynch of someone you think is a townie - and let's be absolutely clear, you have not said anything to suggest that you think he is scum - on the basis that it will give us "information". Can you explain?

Do you think that reluctance to name players as prob-town, or as definite-scum as scumtell?
Do you think that a reluctance to scumhunt, preferring instead to talk in abstract terms about game theory, is a scumtell?
Do you think afatchic has done either of those things?

[Vi]

I do not think afatchic is scum. I think Moo/eld are scum.

Really? You catch all the scum day one without knowing anyone's role/alignment? I don't believe it.

...

----

Let me ask you this, what is better for the town on day one, lynching a townie after 10 pages, or lynching scum in the first five posts?

5 players -> 2 scum (LyLo)

~versus~

5 players -> 1 scum

This one seems obvious. I think you're giving "information" a little too much credit here.

[Vi]

Vi, those statements don't contradict.

Or do they?
You taunt whatshisname by appealing to the likelihood of catching all the scum D1 without knowing anyone's role/alignment, but in that same post you declare that Moospiker and eldarad are scum (and previously made it clear that afatchic is NOT scum primarily because Moospiker and eldarad are scum). Amazing how you found both scum D1, without knowing anyone's role/alignment~

Also, don't answer questions not directed at you, you influence the answer of the person's answer I'm interested in hearing.

Fair. I'll object afterward

Useless is not scum, do people really not realize that?

If the Townies are intent on lynching each other, being useless is a great scum strategy. I just got out of a game where the two most useless players were scum.

I'm fine with any lynch as long as it's not an obvious mislynch.

And an afatchic lynch is not an obvious mislynch to you?

Mod: Prod status on afatchic and Moospiker?

[Vi]

More like you're not reading the topic.

[Vi]

Posting before prod.

It would appear we have a giant stalemate. Some replacements may break that up...

[Vi]

Looks like i got here just in time... started my catching up tonight. try to finish tomorrow.

I hope you're not done...

-----

Eld, stop. I never said the second half of that sentence that you put in quotes. A blatent falsification.

It would be more accurate to say the milder "afatchic is not scum because eldarad and Moospiker are, and I'm not interested in hearing much else"~
That last part is, after all, the flip side of "consistency" as M-M put it.

[Vi]

"afatchic is not scum because eldarad and Moospiker are, and I'm not interested in hearing much else"

--

Do you think afatchic is scum then?

No, but what I mean when I say I'm not opposed to an afatchic lynch is that his lynch will give lots of information regardless of his alignment. It isn't an obvious mislynch.

@charter: Why don't you think afatchic is scum?

Mostly because I think it's eld and moo, and there isn't room for him.

I do not think afatchic is scum. I think Moo/eld are scum. I think afatchic's lynch will give us lots of information to go into day two with and will be a good lynch.

Don't ask me again, I'll ignore everything you write from now on if you do. I'm tired of wasting time not lynching eld and talking about afatchic. If that's who you guys want to lynch, you're going to do it without my vote, get used to the idea.

Vi, I siad I THINK they are scum, not that I've solved the game already.

(...)

No, it's quite possible he's scum. I don't think he is, but he's certainly not what I'd consider an obvious mislynch.

I suppose you have a point in that not much else has been asked. In which case I'll ask what you think of M-M's suspicion of JDodge, who is neither eldarad nor Moospiker.

Day 2 is LyLo in this setup if the kill goes through. Is it okay to lynch someone you don't think is scum at this point?

[Vi]

So you

disagree

with the quoted Posts 239 and 259?

Vi, you get that I'm calling eld out for his blatent trying to make it seem like I said or insinuated something I never have?

I get that. I'm also saying that eldarad was not extremely far from the truth while being incorrect.

[Vi]

Times like these make me wish I had unlimited daykill abilities.

Before I say something I may regret, eldarad. Could you elaborate on--

My favourites for lynching Today are either charter or afatchic, since they both look scummy and I believe the linkage is so blatant that the possibility of them both being scum is very slim. Hence lynching one would give me a good steer on the alignment of the other.

@M-M: Are you satisfied with JDodge's input?

[Vi]

@JDodge: Back to this actual game instead of our debate on meta theory, are you saying that when in a town "mindstate", you have a meta of ignoring a game while being very active in other threads?

---

I have noticed quite a reliable trend in which afatchic promises to reread to catch up and never delivers the promise. In earlier cases he used real-life constraints as an excuse, but in the most recent case he has posted over 30 tmes in other threads while ignoring this one, so clearly afatchic doesn't consider contributing to this game as a priority, which is very antitown. I wouldn't mind lynching afatchic now.

Big FoS: afatchic

quoting to show i read it and im here. if you would like ot look a little closer at all of them you can also see that i fell behind in every one of those games, and that i am just catching up in the one at a time. with all that said, this one is coming tonight.

'Waiting on you.

[Vi]

So you're interested in clearing afatchic from charter's flip,

regardless

of how charter flips...?
Check that logic again. I've not had a blind eye to your near-sensible statements.

Hence lynching charter will give us more information than a JD lynch, or an eldarad lynch, or a Vi lynch. (Or an afatchic lynch, actually.)

And what of a Moospiker lynch or an M-M lynch?

[Vi]

So you're interested in clearing afatchic from charter's flip, regardless of how charter flips...?

Given that I didn't say that I would clear afatchic if charter flipped town, I don't see how you reached that conclusion.

"Cleared" is a big word. The idea nonetheless stands; IYO afatchic would look better no matter how charter flips. Which the way you put it just sounds like an excuse for a charter lynch.

Unvote: charter

[Vi]

Posting

after

prod for a change.

@charter and elderad and Vi: what do three make of afatchic's continuous trend of delaying his promises and not delivering them?

I believe that replacements are the scum's enemy, and thus welcome whoever replaces afatchic.
I'm not sure WHY afatchic is being replaced though; he is posting (somewhat minimally) in other games last time I checked.

@eldarad: Nice technicality. Then let me ask this, more for summary than anything--What do YOU think of afatchic without the charter link?

I'm really starting to agree with charter about this game going nowhere. It's surreal, but the

bad

kind of surreality.

[Vi]

Wait, how are replacements SCUMs enemy? I just replaced into a NG that was plagued by them. I was scum, it was easy as pie to win (two confirmed innocents and no one thought us two were scum, and it was LYLO).

I'll at least let afatchics replacement post before making final decisions. However, if I don't like the post, my vote will come with swift and mighty justice!

Well, replacements one at a time (no comment on Newbie games <_< ).
But as a replacement, I often feel like my initial opinions are against the status quo, which the scum work to establish in their favor so nobody looks at the Man Behind the Red Curtain.

That could be inexperience talking, but whatever. What isn't theoretical is that Moospiker still needs to be replaced first

[Vi]

kuribo replaces afatchic. Everybody acknowledge his generosity.

*acknowledge, acknowledge, acknowledgment*

What of Moospiker?

[Vi]

Well that wasn't the response I was expecting.

So, let me see if I can get the gist of your reasons for hating me.

*KrisReizer's existence. (tbqh, I can't blame you)
*

Vi says telling people his suspicions makes him a target. (No. Telling people who you think is TOWN makes THEM a target) How the hell do you play mafia without voicing suspicions? Vi claims it wasn't serious.

Telling people my suspicions just makes me a target.

...But I'll take one for the team. Avinyl is my stated top suspect, though I should do a reread to see if this needs changing. Second place is a tie between you and charter.

Notice that I

actually do it

in the next line. OMG nullpoint~

That was blatant mockery of charter and afatchic.

I don't really see the need to give my opinions on everyone. It will let scum know whether to keep my alive or not, if anyone wants my specific thoughts or something, I'm more than happy to provide them.

however i don't think it is a good idea for people that have played the whole game and have made there opinions pretty clear to make a detailed list of what they think of everyone at an L-1 position, or close. it just gives the scum way too much info to go on.

Incidentally, the quoted part of charter 139 still bothers me. Why so interested in staying alive?
*

The band comes out because it's HALFTIME!

See above link.
*

Page 10- Vi finds eld scummy and votes him. (Or bussing?) eld claims vanilla townie. (yeah, okay, and I'm the King of Siam) charter makes a bit of a case on eld. Explains that he thinks eld and Moo are the scum pair. (I say Vi and Eld, but, hey) Vi reinforces that in my diseased mind by taking eld off L-1. (Was it the vanilla claim that did it for you?) eld and charter going back and forth a bit. Vi votes charter. (saw this coming)

It would be nice to have your opinion on

why

I voted charter, considering this point only makes sense if you start with the assumption that me and eldarad are both scum.

--------

And that's basically it; the rest of it is a pile of smart remarks as far as I saw. Shortly put, you hate me because of KrisReizer... or am I missing something?

--------

Page 6 Summary- Vi almost changes my mind about Kris, but two posts won't do it, scum, sorry.

Three on that page, to be pedantic. But do tell what

would

change your mind.

A few things I'd like for you to follow up on.
*Moospiker's claim. True or false?
*Least likely to be scum. Vi, eldarad, or Machiavellian-Mafia?
*JDodge. Safely Town or room for doubt? (Or comical third option?)
*charter. Safely Town or room for doubt? (Or comical third option?)

[Vi]

It's also blatantly ignoring some of the other criticisms I've had of you.

Like what.
I asked if I was missing something, and you gave me a vague-as-heck answer like this. Similarly, I asked what I could do to change your opinion, and you ignored that question entirely. If this is how you're going to go about this, I'm going to be as helpful as you are.

1. Irrelevant. There's time to sort things out, and it'd be stupid to lynch him today. Moospiker's behavior is sufficiently disturbing enough to call it into doubt.

It's not irrelevant. Lest you forgot, there are two scum in this game, and you've already named them IYO. If you've found both scum, Moospiker's claim is true.

2. MM. I thought I made that clear I thought you and eld were most likely scum partners?

You did. You also called M-M for a "thinly veiled lurker lynch", which would seem to me to be a significant scumtell.

'See, my problem with what you're doing is similar the same problem that caused me to vote charter (oh wait, I only did that as an excuse to pair up with eldarad; logic be darned). You claim to have found both scum, and are thus proceeding to dismiss what other people are doing as Very Scummy but not worthy of your interest.

----

You question charter's interest in staying alive, on the contrary, I read that as charter thinking ahead to the NK and not wanting to tell the scum who they should kill. This would set him up Day 2 as a target for lynching when his "Most Favoritest Townie" turns up dead that night. Regardless of HIS alignment. But, where it ACTUALLY leads from there is circular. (Did he really kill them, or did the scum want us to think that? Or did the scum just think the person was pro-town as well?)

Is this stance worth reconsidering in light of Moospiker claiming Cop soon afterward?

[Vi]

All right, time to tune out the new guy.~

---

@Machiavellian-Mafia: What is your opinion of eldarad?

[Vi]

I think his scumminess jumped way up the last few pages, but is nowhere near that of eld/avinyl.

Why?

[Vi]

All right, time to tune out the new guy.~

Why are you ignoring him? Because you're losing the argument?

If ignoring the other person is how you win an argument, I suppose so.

I'm not liking my vote as much since kuribo replaced in, and eldarad has been piquing my interest for some time, and I think an eldarad lynch is more likely to materialize before deadline, so...

Unvote, vote: eldarad

easy lynch gogogo

[Vi]

All right, time to tune out the new guy.~

Why are you ignoring him? Because you're losing the argument?

If ignoring the other person is how you win an argument, I suppose so.

So the answer is "yes", or is this some flippant sarcasm instead of an actual response? Because, y'know, it was a

response

I was looking for.

Flippant sarcasm.

It's also blatantly ignoring some of the other criticisms I've had of you.

Like what.
I asked if I was missing something, and you gave me a vague-as-heck answer like this. Similarly, I asked what I could do to change your opinion, and you ignored that question entirely. If this is how you're going to go about this, I'm going to be as helpful as you are.

He quotes my entire post in 360, but ignores IMO the most important part (above). A thorough job if I say so myself.
There's nothing to be done with someone who's essentially tunneling against me for things I can't answer for.

----

I'm not liking my vote as much since kuribo replaced in, and eldarad has been piquing my interest for some time, and I think an eldarad lynch is more likely to materialize before deadline, so...

Unvote, vote: eldarad

easy lynch gogogo

Smart lynch gogogo

I see one mention of eldarad before your vote. You're voting to deadline lynch eldarad six days before the actual deadline, and I'm assuming you're leaving me to fill in the blanks for further motives again beyond that single mention of eldarad. I'd also like to know why you dropped kuribo/afatchic after the replacement.

[Vi]

I'm really not liking how JDodge's suspicions of afatchic, which were stated well in advance and well-outlined in two posts, vanished entirely when kuribo replaced in.
More interestingly, I'm not liking this last assertion that KR was in the least pro-Town, considering basically everything JDodge said until KR had to replace out.

Ergo, something I

do

like.

Vote: JDodge

(L-3)

[Vi]

I said I was surprised at your reaction - I meant it.

Why the surprise? It seems to me based on this--

Vi's charter vote and then his unvote in 328 brought my assumptions about this game crashing to the ground. It just looks...wrong.

--that the major reason you think I'm scum/scummy is because I disagreed with you and did not push your pet wagon. To which I will say something a couple of people already have in this game, albeit for different reasons--Oh My

God

, You Suck.

At this moment in time, I can't really give a standalone meaningful read on afatchic/kuribo because I just can't ignore the consequences of charter's manufactured linkage.

You have no idea how much I'm not buying this. Critical thinking failure is go--

At deadline, I would prefer to see charter lynched. No-one else even comes close.
If kuribo/afatchic were lynched I wouldn't be distraught, but a charter lynch would be far better from a Day 2 standpoint.
A JD lynch I could live with and would be prepared to contribute to.

So the lynches you wouldn't be okay with are:
*Your own
*Mine (though you explained why)
*Machiavellian-Mafia. And that's who I want you to give an opinion on.

------

I realized a day or two ago that Machiavellian-Mafia has been coasting under the radar basically throughout, and all of his votes and significant suspicions have been against people who were unlikely to respond.
*Avinyl (eldarad)
*afatchic (kuribo)
*JDodge
*afatchic again
The abridged version of his commentary toward everyone who has participated is that they have seemed pro-Town to him (except eldarad until he voted to policy lynch JDodge). I don't like it.

[Vi]

Machiavellian-Mafia. And that's who I want you to give an opinion on.

Well, I have an opinion on MM, but given that he is

at least

4th on my list of scumminess I am not going to go any further down that road at the moment.

You know, you could just say you think he's Townish without the display of arrogance...

(*ring ring* "Hello?" "Hello kettle?")

-----

*JDodge - My attacks on JDodge actually contributed to his revival in game participation, the exact opposite of "unlikely to respond".

I don't buy this.

@JDodge:

Validate plz

If anything, he's questioned me a fair bit, despite the fact that I'm exceedingly likely to respond.

"Questioned" and "a fair bit" are exaggerations.

But that's about all I think I can press on in this direction for the moment, and they're not really significant. Carry on, etc.

-----

@charter: I like the idea and you get two points for deviousness, but I think the chances are pretty much shot if the replacement has any semblance of IQ (which I'd hope for; I've been through too many n00bplacements recently).

[Vi]

Posting slightly before going away for the day.

Considering Moospiker is/was a claimed power role, I would much prefer he be replaced *before* we get a lynch, and would be suspicious of people who push for a lynch without a replacement.

Invite your

masochistic

friends! This is, like, one of the few games I'm in that no longer has any utter n00bs in it, so it should be reasonably worthwhile as far as games to replace into go.

[Vi]

Oh hey, Scheherazade! I thought something was wrong with the forum for a second. (And I wasn't referring to you as one of the utter n00bs in my other games; you actually have a grasp of the English language, ergo you're better off than 20% of the people I've seen.)

-----

By the looks of how this game is quickly grinding to a halt, I'm willing to move my vote to elderad fairly soon to put him at L-1.

Any update on this?

Obviously since scheherazade has replaced in, I want to hear what he has to say first.

I'm assuming you wouldn't have done so if Scheherazade hadn't replaced in?

-----

Scheherazade's juxtaposition of eldarad's scummy posts makes me see the case about him more clearly. However, the third link is a clear misrepresentation of eldarad's position at the time. Watch--

I think he has a rather cavalier attitude about who gets lynched: I especially don't like the sudden suggestion that he'd agree to a JDodge lynch

If this is genuinely the only choice

, then I would change my vote to JD before deadline. But I don't think JD is the best lynch Today.

Moreover, I don't think we are at a point where it is such a simple either/or decision.

As he's already claimed vanilla, he's either scum lying, town lying or a vanilla townie who just prioritised survival over protection of potentially concealed power-roles. If he's town and lied earlier about being vanilla, he should probably claim now.

Um... what? He claimed, and he's not dead yet for whatever reason. Does this mean he should be lynched for scum?

-----

I'm really starting to hate charter's general lack of scumhunting. He's wanted to lynch Avinyl since before he was replaced, and hasn't really said much otherwise. (Singular exception: 362)

charter, a while ago you said you didn't think afatchic was scum because you thought the scumpair was between eldarad and Moospiker. (Two easy targets IMO, but regardless.) You also said you did not want to provide a list of suspicions because Moospiker was at L-1. Now would be a good time to provide that list, if you want to try to assuage my suspicions.

Incidentally, just looking through your last 40 or so of your posts, the only times you ever said anything about changing your vote from eldarad or advocating anyone's lynch other than eldarad's was in post 342, where you said you were ready to go for afatchic

(who you had repeatedly said was not scum IYO and would only lynch for information)

and your weak pressure on JDodge. Similarly, after taking on Moospiker you haven't said anything about the scumminess of anyone else (other than "not as scummy as eld").

As an aside, M-M 285 sticks out when following this line of thought.

-----

Currently re-evaluating where my vote should be, since frankly almost everyone looks suspicious for some reason or another. Your input is welcome.

[Vi]

PRODS PLEASE

People, vote eld.

Posting before prod. Waiting on charter.

[Vi]

Posting before prod. Waiting on charter.

Keep on waiting. Go ahead and keep your suspicions of me as well.

Oh, in

that

case--

Unvote: JDodge
Vote: charter

(L-2)

[Vi]

Fascinating.

Mach-Maf. You said that you consider it a significant and quite reliable scumtell here and here for someone to be posting tons in other places onsite, but not here. With that in mind, has your opinion on charter changed?

[Vi]

He's saying I'm scum cause I post in other games more frequently than this one...
Actually, he's not saying it, he's trying to get you to say/think it. Quite scummy of him in fact.

You are correct in the first sentence. I am

heavily

implying that I think you're scum (let's see, my vote would indicate this, my suspicions from earlier would indicate this, and now this obviously pointed question would indeed suggest that I think you're scum!) And it's not just that you post in other games more frequently than this one, it's that you

deliberately told me

you would avoid this game when charged with false activity. At

best

this is the same thing JDodge was doing.

And there's a very good reason that I'm trying to get Ma-Ma to say it. I'm pretty sure that either he or JDodge is your partner.

Calling it scummy is a bluff, but also the best scumhunting you've done for

pages

. Very satisfied with my vote, and I would encourage others to look into/vote charter as well.

[Vi]

I think that if you're basing your opinion of charter on his level of activity in this game, you're either half-crazy or scum trying to go for the kill.

Are you saying that only scum can have less interest in one game than another?

If you think

I'm

basing my opinion of charter solely on his level of activity in this game, you're either half-crazy or looking for reasons to push a case on me. (But I will separately acknowledge being half-crazy.)

The focus of the argument is that he's not interested in finding scum. Look through his last 40-or-so posts, and you'll see it's mostly shoving words down eld's throat, inhibiting discussion by saying he won't talk about things, calling for lynches because "nothing more is going to get done today", calling for prods, almost jumping on the afatchic wagon, and weakly pressuring JDodge. His activity postwise isn't much of a problem; his

refusal

to scumhunt

is.

[Vi]

I suppose I've misinterpreted your previous post where you said he was correct in stating:

He's saying I'm scum cause I post in other games more frequently than this one...

Oh, I see. That was the last straw, as I hope I've explained. Apologies for the confusion.

[Vi]

Vi, I don't know what scumhunting you expect me to do. I think I've found me a scum, no need to continuously post stuff against eld.

kk
I think I've found me a scum (in you). I'm going to go play in my other games now; see yas D2. The rest of you can sort it out from here. People, vote charter.

~

Obvious problems:
1) You could be wrong. (Imagine that)
2) You've basically stopped playing. Lest you forget, there's more than one scum around. You could help your own cause by pointing out who the possible scumpartners are based on your eld suspicions.

Blatantly anti-Town. Why are people not voting charter for this.

----------

Interesting that you come to his defense as soon as I state suspicion of him though.

Come on, you can do better than that for scumhunting. Or you could if you were Town.
So go ahead and quit pussyfooting around. Neither me nor JDodge are eldarad (thankfully), so we can't both be scum. What's the point of implying this partnership (that is, trying to get people to say/think there is one)? On your own scale, that's pretty horrible.

[Vi]

He

[Vi]

's doing

something

now I find suspicious, not the fact that he finds me suspicious.

Clarify.

[Vi]

@M-M:

Posting before prod. Waiting on charter.

Keep on waiting. Go ahead and keep your suspicions of me as well.

^^this^^

[Vi]

Oh hey, eight days. Scheherazade is the one not voting in the vote count btw.

@kuribo. Am I still your top suspect?

[Vi]

Vi, how does me not defending myself make me more likely to be scum?

Because you're not on the offensive either, except against a single vendetta target.
I wish I could effectively take up space and get away with it.

----

Second, I will have to ask Vi, but it appears that making the point you tried to dodge was more important to Vi than noting you were dodging in that instance.

I'm not exactly sure what's being dodged here.

other than J

----

Because it seems (from my perspective) that charter is solely a poor player and a lazy dickhole as opposed to scum? How exactly is him stopping after he things he's found something "suspicious"? Lazy, useless, assholish, yes - but it does not realistically equate to anything worth being suspicious of.

Charter is clearly just another one of the people who tries to use the quiet, low-reasoning methods without understanding how they actually work. Which is stupidity, not scumminess.

I don't buy this explanation. Quiet and low-reasoning, sure, that sounds somewhat like charter (a little light on the "quiet" part). But even a lazy, useless, assholish Town player is more open to who should be lynched, and the ones I've encountered in my experience will actually look at other players given enough of a kick in the rear. charter's

refusal

to scumhunt is inexcusable.

Yes. So could you, so could any of us. The issue herein is the amount of security one feels in their convictions - if charter really does feel

that solidly

about his suspicions, then it would follow that regardless of what he does

nothing is likely to change his mind.

Which doesn't exempt him from participation.

You're also making the (fallacious) assumption that he is no longer reading the thread - you have no basis to stake this claim upon, thus your reasoning is invalid. If there is anything that would motivate him to change his mind, he would thus notice it through reading the thread.

Contradiction. You've already said that charter believes so strongly that nothing will change his mind. Further, I'm genuinely surprised you don't remember lurkers, people who read the thread and yet do not play except when convenient. Lurking is a great scum tactic, as is active lurking - posting but not contributing.

You seem to be assuming (for whatever bizarre reason) that if you read something 20 times as opposed to once then somehow everything magically becomes clear to you and you can pick out every scum in the game. In theory, this

sounds

like a good idea. In reality, life doesn't work that way. You're actually more likely to overscrutinize (which is bad - attempting to indict someone on bullshit is one of the worst things you can do as town), which leads to poor play in and of itself.

I have no idea what you're responding to here, but whatever. I agree that lots of rereads do not indicate success. However, I don't think my accusation is on shaky ground.

I eagerly await your rebuttal.

Actually, I wouldn't much care if you chose not to rebut this post. With a known lurker/slacker who is also my #2 suddenly pushing a defense on my #1, I'm now considerably

more

interested in seeing charter lynched.

People, vote charter.

[Vi]

Hey, I missed all the Twilight fun

Twilight mass rebuttal post go

You're falling back on a "Lynch the Lurker" mentality, and in such a small game, I can't see that helping the town.

The difference between anti-town and scummy? Pushing to lynch a lurker in a small game is scummy. (Hint: it keeps pressure off of you and knocks out someone you know to be town)

What pressure?
Calling charter a lurker is a misnomer; he's hiding in plain sight and it's terribly obvious. Again, it's not that he doesn't contribute, it's that he refuses to.

Why charter? Why not JDodge? Is there something besides the lurkiness that you're not sharing?

In case you missed it, JDodge is my #2 and most likely to be his partner - I'm going after the one who's acting blatantly anti-Town. As far as something I'm not sharing, I'm tired of repeating myself. The guy's literally sitting around saying

Hey I'm acting anti-Town!

.

You're stereotyping. Stereotyping is bad. You need to look at charter as charter, not charter as the lazy, useless assholish Town player. Then you will see what I mean.

All right, I glanced through a few of his games. charter's not a lazy, useless assholish Town player, and certainly hasn't pulled a stunt like this before (as far as I saw).

Then why is he acting like this.

Heck, after all the confrontation I've done, why not do something to keep suspicion away? It's

obvious

he's not even defending himself; not nearly as much as you are.

Not contradiction. I've said that nothing would change his mind. How does that mean he'll stop reading? I've noticed a tendency among new people to have some sort of fetish with assuming the worst and considering it fact. Lurking is a terrible scum tactic because it's one that scum will tend to get called on quite often. I maintain that with the popularity of the whole "lynch all lurkers" meta, that lurking in and of itself has ceased to become a valid tell. Active lurking as a tell is also rapidly becoming invalid.

Considering active lurking is a sign of bad play - or more pertinently, worse play than charter's apparent norm - and that I've seen active/lurking work quite well in other games for scum, I'll take my chances. Besides, I think you have a vested interest in shooting me down.

My, my, we're a bit snippy today, aren't we?

Snippiness is what I do best.

I'll wager eldarad is Town - albeit a painfully easy lynch - and thus that eldarad lingered at L-1 because both scum were already on the wagon. Hmm, that leaves charter, JDodge, and M-M. Convenient, the people I'm already suspicious of.

It's worth noting that charter and eldarad were also on the almost-lynch of Moospiker (now Scheherazade).

I eagerly anticipate charter's first move of the day. Same to Scheherazade.

[Vi]

My first move isn't going to be that impressive, I'm afraid.

As my predecessor already claimed cop, I'm happy revealing that kuribo did turn up town.

That's the move I was looking for.

Understand that while I believe you are Town based on Moospiker's meta, it's not a certainty. I expect you to continue to contribute until the end of the game. (But after Thanksgiving if necessary )

[Vi]

If I do, scum is Vi and JDodge.

A brilliant display of deductive reasoning, if I do say so myself.
Unless there is some crime against me that you haven't mentioned aside from me

disagreeing with you

~

[Vi]

You supposedly need to be making up your mind about it too. Funny how you don't seem to realize this.

Understand that while I believe you are Town based on Moospiker's meta, it's not a certainty.

*insert TRY HARDER pic here*
Good Lord you are scum.

Although I understand your point about singling me and JDodge out now. Not that I agree with your assessment.

[Vi]

All right, I just had a long drive to think this one over. It didn't take long before I made a decision to stop being a predictable Dumàs and look at it from more than my angle. I'm 0 for 4 in making the right choice at LyLo and I'm not interested in extending my losing streak.

This is a summary of my thought processes; feel free to snooze.

Position at end of D1: charter is OMGobvscum, and it's a toss-up between JDodge and M-M for being right there with him.
At the beginning of D2: Ma-Ma gets killed. Well that answers that question.
After Scheherazade's investigation: So it can't be anyone BUT charter and JDodge. Easy enough.

But that's a bit one-dimensional. There are two major problems that I see here.
1) The Cop may be lying, but more importantly

cannot

be confirmed.
2) What got me to notice that there is a problem is that this lines up neatly with what I was thinking... too neatly. I sense a trap.

And now I really see what you're about in those first two posts, charter. If Scheherazade is indeed a Cop, then it comes down to whoever enough people hate the most between me, you, and JDodge. Two out of three seems pretty good for odds.
But if not, then there's a severe problem and all bets are off. And it would be in character for me to toss a vote at someone in LyLo if I were convinced in someone being scum... 'Glad I waited.

----

Now, looking at Moospiker/Scheherazade the Cop one more time...

Moospiker/Scheherazade is a Cop

*Having seen Moospiker's play in another game - ongoing, unfortunately - I don't think Moospiker was doing anything unusual. Not that I know his alignment in the other game.
*If it were not so, then charter is the lazy, useless, assholeish Townie JDodge says he is. Which I'm having a hard time accepting. (It would also mean that JDodge has been right as often or more than he has been wrong in this game, not that that's a bad thing.)

Moospiker/Scheherazade is Scum

*Moospiker did not breadcrumb until he was at L-2 and saw afatchic ready to move against him. That seems horribly late, don't you think?
*Scheherazade hammered eldarad. Granted, I didn't like the eldarad lynch toward the end anyway, but notice who was on the wagon - charter, JDodge, M-M, and Scheherazade. I highly doubt that NO Mafia were on the wagon; in fact, by the virtue of knowing my own alignment it's impossible for there to have been no scum on the wagon. The door is definitely open for Scheherazade to be Mafia, especially if one takes the hypothesis that charterxJDodge is a scamplay.
*afatchic and Moospiker had a dynamic going, noticeably around Pages 3 and 4. Even though afatchic thinks Moospiker is scum for a long while, he doesn't vote him until charter confronts him about it much later. The charter+afatchic dialogue starting in Post 109 is an interesting read along these lines. afatchic generally seems to like sticking up for Moospiker under the premise of defending him.
*Some of (but not all of) Scheherazade's case on eldarad, looking back on it, was just weird. After the initial post he heavily accuses eldarad of being useless (asking unnecessary questions), which you can guess my opinion on considering I've been after charter for a while. He also seems to make a point of getting eldarad to claim, saying his earlier claim was a lie. I'd call that an obvious, nonsensical rolefish. With all this said, though, eldarad really did seem to enjoy acting scummily, and ammunition of all qualities was plentiful.
*The fact that Scheherazade was neither blocked nor targeted last Night, given how we've already seen that a successful investigation could end the game by process of elimination, is quite striking.

Looking back, I see a lot more for scum than Cop, with kuribo most likely to be a partner (but not necessarily). Thus, I'm quite interested in hearing what Scheherazade has to say now.
Separately, something I'd like to follow up on would be explaining the point you dropped in the hammering post.

Oh, and to answer the objection you've probably had for a while, I know it's pronounced "doo-MAH"

[Vi]

There's only one setup that allows for two cops, and a very small number that call for none at all. So for him to falseclaim cop would be his death sentence upon counterclaim and result in his scum partner being left alone.

And an outed Town Cop. It's not necessarily a bad scum move, though it is situational. I do see your point and don't see it as likely per se.

I'm not liking alot of Vi's logic in trying to "sort things out."

And that makes me wrong, or scum? Of course, putting in your own two cents on it is welcome.

---

Assumes there is a blocker present. Cannot be used as a tell, not enough information to assume tell is valid.

No it doesn't.
If there is no blocker, then a successful investigation like this would be fatal if the Cop cannot be discredited.

Why is the hammer suspicious?

Some of Scheherazade's ideas of what is suspicious do not resonate with me. You quoted my thoughts on it later.
More suspicious is the wagon, which all but guarantees that at least one of you, charter, or Scheherazade is scum.

No. He saw his lynch coming, saw he was going to have to back up his claim somehow, and breadcrumbed there in self-defense.

How does that change anything?
L-2 and rising would be a good time to think about how to dodge the noose. A claim would be a good way to do it; crumbs would be there to show that you've been meaning to claim eventually since... oh wait... you were put to L-2 and had incentive to claim to save your own skin. Crumbs are much more effective the earlier they are made, IMO.

'Mind if I give you some food for thought along these lines, just to speed this along a little?

I'm the Doctor

, and I protected Scheherazade last night. If nobody wants to counterclaim, and Scheherazade IS indeed a Town-side Cop, then charter and JDodge have giant targets on them. Unless someone wants to argue that kuribo/afatchic is the Godfather...

[Vi]

"Nice try"? It was quite nice, wasn't it?

Vote: JDodge

Wrong. Look at the setup list to see why. I'm honestly stunned at why neither you nor charter (especially you, seeing as you seem to be great at over-analyzing everything) the distinct possibility (however unlikely) that kuribo is a GF.

Why yes, I DID mention it. You didn't quote it. A one-in-seven chance, raised to a decent ~41% assuming both a Cop and Doc and lowered to zero assuming not both. It's still not anything I would want to take for granted (though you seem pretty willing to suggest Vi-kuribo regardless based on NK WIFOM).

At the time you said this, charter hadn't been here in a while; I'm not sure why you're harping on him for not assuming a special case immediately after Scheherazade gave a result.

It really seems like you

believe

that Sche is sincere, but

don't want to admit it

.

I don't know if Scheherazade is being sincere; I don't have enough of a meta on him.
Some of what Scheherazade was punishing seemed to be more in line with bad play, rather than actual scumminess.
This is something I'd like to discuss with Scheherazade.

That said, the Doc-claim scenario we're in now seems to fit the hypothesis of Scheherazade telling the truth, at least initially...

I think kuribo is more likely than charter based on the M-M kill last night, which indicates doc-hunting.

I don't want to admit that you're right, what with you being obvscum from my point of view, but that seems plausible at surface. Only one of the main seven setups allows for a Cop to be protected by a Doc in every case, and assuming two Goons and no further information scumside it seems like the better play to just hit the Cop and not expect

the Spanish Inqusition

a Doctor.
There are, of course, two small wrinkles in this logic.
1) Standard NK WIFOM - intentional misdirection, propagated by a semi-outed scum himself.
2) It's quite possible for this to be a Godfather C9 where kuribo is a Townie. And that's where your pick for my scumpartner fails the logic test.

I'd worry about it after your lynch, personally. With two claimed Docs and only one possible, today's fashions in noose fitting seem obvious.

[Vi]

hmmmm... the plot moistens.

To contrast, your waffling grows stale.
'Anything else to add?

[Vi]

Only that I'd like to read over things a bit.

Got a problem with that? Or is it "waffling" to try and make sure I get it right?

How, exactly, is your offhand comment supposed to convey "I'm rereading"?
Whatever, retarded line of questioning, etc.


---

And I'd say my so-called "NK WIFOM" is pretty damn valid until you can come up with a reason why it isn't.

And furthermore, my pick for your partner is not setup-based insofar that I believe Sche's investigation damns kuribo; rather, it is based on my current opinion of whom I feel is best linked to you. Your rocky history with charter does not seem like distancing to me.

So it's not NK WIFOM.
I'm assuming that kuribo's out-the-gate hate on me DOES look like distancing to you? Strange world.

You're unwilling to excuse charter's behaviour as bad play, but you're just as happy pushing against Sche for being unwilling to excuse bad play?

Not nearly "just as happy". I also said that Scheherazade had some justifiable reasons for voting eldarad. charter said "I believe this guy is scum" on page 7, said "I still believe this guy is scum" on page 10, and the rest of it was waiting it out. Not that he seemed to have any objections to hammering afatchic... (342)

The presence of a doc in the setup, except in one highly unlikely scenario, confirms the presence of a cop. It would be a very, very stupid gambit to pull off by now.

Rather than bore people with numbers, I'll call this fair. With no counterclaim, for now I'm willing to buy that Scheherazade is a Cop.

Your smug is showing.

Irony.

----

I will agree that it seems unlikely that Scheherazade is scum under the circumstances. I don't see JDodge/afatchic being nearly as likely as JDodge/charter. Thus, after initial reconsideration I'm going to say that my suspicions have no ground to change.

----

Thus, the next step is to lay into JDodge.

A few things to press on here. One is how close he is to charter the obvscum. I'm tired of being ignored on this. Does anyone have any reason to say that charter was NOT playing the part of Mafia D1? The active lurking in plain sight. The refusal to scumhunt. The weak suspicions cast about against people who were looking against him. The desire to hammer afatchic while claiming outright that afatchic was most likely Town.

The being scum.

Yet JDodge

defended

charter, and charter was the only person other than himself that he defended all day. charter even treated us to a display of the most fakey distancing ever starting in 371. Am I the only person to whom this seems obvious?

A second one is his jump to the eldarad wagon. He called early on to lynch Moospiker, and when Moospiker claimed Cop to lynch afatchic as his partner. JDodge was repeatedly called upon to justify this afatchic vote (leaving me to fill in the blanks, which in retrospect I shouldn't have done), and he only did so multiple pages later, in a two-post extravaganza. But he drops all of it as soon as kuribo replaces in for afatchic, and pursues the popular eldarad lynch instead. When charter asks why, the only objective reason he gives is about eldarad's "blameshifting", which I don't buy (how different is this from charter's pushing suspicion on people who are suspicious of him? Apparently, the difference was that eldarad had a more likely wagon).
On a related note, I will repeat that the odds are slim to zero that there were no scum on the wagon (this would require a Vi-kuribo scumpair). The eldarad wagon consisted of:
*charter (who had been hating eldarad blindly for multiple pages)
*JDodge (see previous paragraph)
*Machiavellian-Mafia (for the sake of a wagon, and that his unwilling-to-post lynch idea fell through)
*Scheherazade (misinterprets eldarad's paraphrase as a quote, "disingenuity")
Machiavellian-Mafia has been shown to be Town. If we're going to assume Scheherazade is indeed a Cop, then that leaves... charter and JDodge as the scum pushing the mislynch. Notice that both of them were also on the Moospiker lynch as well, and charter was within a post of hammering afatchic (who JDodge was already on the wagon of).

[Vi]

Not distancing. Bussing. Scumpartner seeing his partner is going down and trying to ship him out of there as soon as possible.

Um... what? I was in no danger at the time. This makes zero sense.

Sche hammers for "bad play", you hold an objection; are you saying you wouldn't hammer charter for "bad play" (also, I find it interesting you seem to be now

admitting

that charter was playing badly) given the scenario?

Hardly.
I could much more easily rationalize eldarad trying to play well, but failing. charter's play has been both bad and scummy; he wasn't even trying in the first place. (But if it wins him the game as scum, perhaps it's not bad play. Hmm...)

Bad play, not suspicion. Your afatchic-town to afatchic-scum point is easily countered when you consider that people change their mind.

And what kind of bad play is it for you to defend someone who

refuses

to defend himself, hmm? It's nonetheless striking that charter changes his mind about someone he insisted was most likely Town for a brief period when it became likely afatchic was going to a lynch, and as soon as afatchic showed up he backpedaled on it.

Writing off everything charter is doing as Bad Play is simply not going to fly. It's just my personal belief that people in general aren't terminally retarded and at some level know what they're doing and the consequences thereof.

I didn't feel like posting my case then. I'm going to go ahead and say "meta me" again, like I did to M-M.

I already have. Even if I were to buy that you brought yourself back to the

horrible monotony

that is this game, I still think it would have been more attractive IYO if people would just listen to you and fill in the details on their own.

Meta doesn't excuse everything. If I'm wrong on this statement, I'm going to quit whatever it is I'm doing and emulate your playstyle. (It certainly can't

hurt

my win %.)

I have a good meta on kuribo, and I thought I had a good meta on eldarad. Kuribo looks solidly town to me, and eldarad looked pretty damn scummy.

Well that's vague enough. Explain, especially since you're currently accusing kuribo of being my scumpartner (and your bussing link is nonexistent).

I like how you declare that me and charter

must

be scum because we comprised half the eldarad wagon.

"Must" is a strong word, one you don't use unless you mean it in probabalistic terms. And that's you putting the word in my mouth.
Moreover, you're misrepresenting my position a bit. I said "there is at least one". That would be charter... or you, if we're leaving Scheherazade out. That's easy enough. And since both of you were pushing the same wagons earlier, I'm going to go ahead and say BOTH of you. This is separate of any individual claims against either of you, although they support each other nicely.

---

Now, a few questions for you, since you seem to be doing my job for me with your pathetic attempts at mudslinging:

So it's normally your job to pathetically mudsling?~

- Why was the eldarad lynch a bad one?

He wasn't the best lynchee available IMO. I'm still

extremely

displeased at Scheherazade that he hammered without mentioning charter once. Further, half the four-person wagon (JDodge, M-M) was there in large measure for the sake of getting a lynch to occur, leaving charter (no comment) and Scheherazade as the people actually pushing eldarad as scummy.

- Who (of charter and kuribo) do you feel is most easily linked to yourself?

Neither. The person most easily linked to me was Machiavellian-Mafia.

I would also like to propose the following:

We lynch one of (kuribo, charter) today instead of one of (myself, Vi).

In so doing, we auto-win if we get it right. Otherwise, assuming a GF (which I still think is most likely), we have to make this sort of lylo decision

twice

instead of once. Thoughts?

I object. One hard lesson I've learned is that you Never Let Scum Go If Promised Another.
It's guaranteed that between me and JDodge, there is at least one Mafiate. However, it is NOT guaranteed that there is one between charter and kuribo. Considering that the primary proponent of the Godfather C9 setup is the person I

know

is scum, I think it's quite possible for Scheherazade to be your partner. Unlikely, eh. Possible, undeniably.
Moreover, your plan implicitly assumes that the line is clearly drawn between Vi-kuribo and JDodge-charter. It's not, and for you to propose this plan I'm curious as to whether you're capitalizing on this.

Short answer, I'd much rather take a 50% chance with no room for error than a 50% chance WITH room for error.
And in my case, I would absolutely take a 100% chance with no room for error than a 50% chance WITH room for error.

------

It would be nice if the people who haven't made a decision about who to vote would come talk, ask questions, etc.

[Vi]

Vi- Having looked over things, I still don't like Vi, but it's entirely possible that I'm biased because I didn't like him on my first readthrough, either. I've already laid out why I think he's Mafia. Although, more recently, I think he's approaching the setup with a more open mind than JDodge.

Well let's nail down what exactly it is that makes me scummy.

*KrisReizer. 'Not much I can do about it.
*I didn't know why one would unvote a claimed Cop if he's that suspicious. This is the result of me being a newb; I didn't know the metapolicy and was surprised to see people backing off their #1s.
*My remark about not voicing suspicions. An obvious jab at charter and afatchic, who did the same. Notice that I actually DID voice my suspicions

immediately after saying that

.
*I took eldarad off L-1. eldarad talked sense about what I was voting him for, and I settled down a bit (231). Before his claim, mind. Then charter decided to play obvscum, and the rest is history.
*I voted charter. I certainly think it was deserved.

Is there any more?

I don't like the case he laid out about why the cop claim shouldn't be valid. Of course it's valid.

Is it?
We can talk about probabilities all day, but I don't know what EXACTLY the setup is, and the fact that JDodge-scum is the primary person pushing Godfather C9 makes me hold out on making assumptions. It's quite possible that Scheherazade is a Cop. By the numbers, probable. By the play, eh (see kuribo 355). But ultimately, as of now it doesn't matter. Scheherazade is a suspect like everyone else, but a suspect that's not going to get voted for today.

@Simenon: Why prod me? I had the last post until this morning :v

[Vi]

Posting before prod.

I really hope we don't have to replace either of the two absent players.

[Vi]

Necro-Posting before prod.

That was a pretty good comeback, charter. Unfortunately, it's practically useless. !surprise

'Deadline's in seventeen days. Assuming the replacement is competent enough to not walk in and vote immediately, I sense we're going to be rushing at the end, albeit in an impotent Christmas V/LAfest-type of way.

*waits*

[Vi]

It might make sense not to lynch jdodge/vi today. If we nail scum today that isn't them (and assuming sche is cop) then it's an autowin tomorrow.

Wouldn't that happen

anyway

if Scheherazade is a Cop?

[Vi]

See, my problem is that I know one of those two is scum, and I haven't figured out which.

Shouldn't that be everyone's problem right now? Bird in hand > two in bush, or something like that.
Granted, we need people here for that to go very far.

@mod: Prods, replacements, modkills, gift certificates, etc.

@kuribo: What's got you hung up on your decision?

[Vi]

I'll replace Scheherazade if you'll let me!

[Vi]

This means that by you claiming doc you put yourself in at least 3 times as much danger as you would need to normally.

Wait, hold the phone. Let me trace this conversation.
--kuribo's out-the-gate hate on you D1 was bussing.
-Why do you think this? I was in no danger at the time he replaced in.
--You claimed Doctor today to place yourself in danger.
I've already been in one Time Abuse Mafia, and I'm pretty sure I only signed up for one. No, I didn't claim Doctor D1, nor did KrisReizer IIRC.

Honestly, were I your scumpartner, I'd have done the same thing and attempted to get you lynched to put myself in a better position for tomorrow, especially when you consider that you're almost certainly not a godfather seeing as that would be an obnoxiously risky gambit (although somewhat clever, I don't think any scum power role in their right mind would dare claim a power role they know exists within the setup).

"Were I your scumpartner" WIFOM aside, I know of one scum power that would try it - a player who thinks he's clean countering someone he thinks can be bullied out of the game. If you get me lynched today, it doesn't matter if you're the Godfather or anything else; you win. Why would a Godfather be the one counterclaiming? Perhaps because he has a better reputation than his Goon partner, or more experience/confidence.
Moreover, if the Godfather were so concerned about getting lynched today, then perhaps in addition to counterclaiming he would push the lynch pressure off himself. 'Sound familiar? This would in turn allow him to use investigation immunity such that if he were investigated N2, he would be able to indict the other player immediately. All of the benefits of claiming Doc plus all of the benefits of being a Godfather, even with an authentic Doctor in the game!

So you can see eldarad as "trying to play well, but failing". Yet it still seems that you only see charter in the black-and-white categories of "good play = town, bad play = scum".

More like "not trying to play well, and failing".

I would like to again point out that charter not even trying is not necessarily scummy. Especially when you point out that not even trying is contrary to the scum motive of attempting to get townies lynched, AND contrary to the secondary scum motive of attempting to blend in. Your entire line of logic against charter blatantly ignores the law of common sense in favour of the law of "he's not doing anything, must be scum".

Towns self-destruct more often than not. Being on the periphery, or active lurking, is just fine if the Town's willing to lynch itself to LyLo.

I would argue that, in this current age of mafia wherein you have numerous people who have a more lurking playstyle, that lurking has ceased to become a meaningful tell and that lynch all lurkers is used solely as a tool to attempt to condition players into the standards of play that those who use it wish to enforce.

I don't have such a big deal with lurking as a playstyle as long as what you say when you DO show up is convincing. Active lurking is by definition failing at this, and is either a sign of staying in the background (see above) or being a playstyle miller. I've lost too many games to lurker-scum to agree with you.

Why wouldn't I defend someone who refuses to defend themselves? Why should we only hold the bad against someone while refusing to look at the other side of the coin? Why is it scummy for me to attempt to prevent what I feel to be unfounded suspicion being laid upon someone?

Good question. I would reserve that for unfounded suspicion, and only for people who cannot defend themselves (V/LA or getting replaced). The first part we can debate for a while longer, but the second part is where charter fails.

That's just because you don't have enough experience with the idiots who play to become jaded enough to realize that people are terminally retarded and really

don't

know what they're doing and the consequences thereof.

Which should be taken into account when looking at them. I'll defend people that I feel are newbs/n00bs when I believe I can understand why they're doing what they're doing if it's wrong. However, the suspicion should still surface that the person being defended is scum when it piles up, or if things stop becoming fully explicable by the n00b card.

I'll admit that the naivety defense does make your pushing of charter much more believable, but I'm finding it hard to accept that defense all things considered.

I'm feeling masochistic today. Why is it hard to accept?

I do think it would've been more attractive if people had looked for themselves or at very least remained cognizant of my opinion regardless of how much meaning was behind it at the time. Instead, people tend to dismiss opinions without what they feel to be "sufficient opinion" behind them. This is flawed because it essentially says "you're not allowed to have an opinion unless it's good enough for me".

But when it comes down to people disagreeing with your opinion, they have nothing to check why you believe the way you do. And considering the

horrible monotony

of the game, they won't be getting an answer for a while.

The flip side to this approach to scumhunting is that it essentially lets you direct the scumhunting efforts with seeming-little research effort of your own. That's a great place for scum to be. *continues taking notes*

My metas on kuribo and eldarad are from roughly the same time. On a theoretical level, since my meta on eldarad proved to be wrong and presumably outdated, I can assume the same about my meta on kuribo. Thus my opinions in a meta context are invalid, thus I must use a non-meta context. I find non-meta contexts to be overly circumstantial. I feel that this makes my play overall worse. That was a typo on the whole "kuribo looks solidly town" bit, I meant to say kuribo looked solidly town.

So your opinion of kuribo is...?

You then posit from that that both me and charter are scum

for the same reason.

Wordier but more accurate version: My separate beliefs that the two of you are scum are corroborated by this single reason, and it's not implausible to suggest you're together based on it.

You're indicting me on pushing the wagon and then lumping me in with one of two confirmed town players reasoning-wise? That's a bit odd, isn't it? Furthermore, how am I scum for supposedly pushing the eldarad lynch when you're saying that only Sche and charter were pushing the eldarad lynch? Something is ROTTEN IN DENMARK HERE.

Let me try this one again. charter and Scheherazade were the ones pushing it because it was scummy. You and M-M were pushing it for the sake of any lynch. That M-M turned up Town is circumstantial and doesn't reflect on you.

Answer the question. In fact, I just noticed that the first time you voted me was when I asked you a question and then called you out for not answering it - perhaps you didn't want to answer the question for whatever reason.

Hmmmm.

I cannot be linked easily to either kuribo or charter. If I had to pick one, it would be kuribo. I'll leave you to fill in my thought processes.
And about that question - you mean the one in 368? Another instance where I give a sarcastic answer

and then answer the question two lines later

. Context_is_good.

Thought you didn't believe people were "terminally retarded" in that way? Seems to be a bit more convenient for you to change your mind on that now, doesn't it?

This is an entertaining, if relatively pointless diversion. Let's compare charter to:
Prof. Guppy (Lynched D1)
MafiaMann (Lynched D1)
tubby216 (Replaced in D3)
Plus a few more people who are unfortunately in ongoing games. I'd place charter ahead of all of these people. The difference is, MafiaMann and tubby were actually trying. They would respond to questions and pressure - with helpful intent, if ineffectually.

Again, I am almost entirely certain that this is GF C9. Which means there is a cop. No counter-claim means Sche is a cop. Sche being a cop means he is not scum.

Sche not being scum means that by lynching one of charter/kuribo, we have a 50/50 shot as a town of lynching the correct one.

I protect Sche, you can't kill me because that would expose you anyways (meaning you have to kill whichever of charter/kuribo is town). Sche investigates one of us. We lynch according to Sche's investigation. Town wins automatically.

Otherwise, we have to take a separate 50-50 chance which leads to insta-loss if we're wrong.

If we're right, and I'm right about there being a GF, then we have to make the same 50-50 tomorrow. Which, according to my math, means lynching one of kuribo/charter gives us a 50% chance whereas lynching one of myself/Vi gives us a 25% overall chance.

More specifically than a JDodge, this is a JBarrelRoll for the amount of spin put in (see bold). As far as the Godfather investigation immunity bit goes, I think you're gambiting (see second response).

[Vi]

Why did you feel the need to claim here Vi? You weren't under any real pressure that I can see and when I read it just struck me as strange. You say in your response to the JDodge quote that Moo shoulda just claimed because breadcrumbing at L-2 is pretty weak. Isn't claiming unprovked equally as strange?

It's LyLo and I'm a power role. That in itself is worth a claim. Further, if anyone counterclaims, then I've 100% found scum. Of course, if there is NOT a counterclaim, then either there is no Doc at all OR I'm telling the truth and above suspicion; and if it's the latter, then that basically seals who the scum are (well, that's what I thought before the Godfather C9 idea came up). Heads I win, tails you lose.

Thus it was a purely strategic move, not anything done in desperation. If anything, waiting until I was backed into a corner would

weaken

the truthiness of the Doc claim under these circumstances, IMO.

Also, welcome to the game!

[Vi]

Honestly, were I your scumpartner, I'd have done the same thing and attempted to get you lynched to put myself in a better position for tomorrow, especially when you consider that you're almost certainly not a godfather seeing as that would be an obnoxiously risky gambit (although somewhat clever, I don't think any scum power role in their right mind would dare claim a power role they know exists within the setup).

"Were I your scumpartner" WIFOM aside, I know of one scum power that would try it - a player who thinks he's clean countering someone he thinks can be bullied out of the game. If you get me lynched today, it doesn't matter if you're the Godfather or anything else; you win.

Why would a Godfather be the one counterclaiming? Perhaps because he has a better

[ingame]

reputation than his Goon partner, or more experience/confidence.*

Moreover, if the Godfather were so concerned about getting lynched today, then perhaps in addition to counterclaiming he would push the lynch pressure off himself. 'Sound familiar? This would in turn allow him to use investigation immunity such that if he were investigated N2, he would be able to indict the other player immediately. All of the benefits of claiming Doc plus all of the benefits of being a Godfather, even with an authentic Doctor in the game!

*Or because he was the first to arrive after the claim, or you get the idea.

charter's moves recently sync nicely with the second paragraph's motives, although ignore the part about quicklynching D3 because we would know that the Godfather had not been lynched by that point.

[Vi]

I still don't understand the assumption that there IS a godfather.

It could just as easily be C9, Two of Four A7, or Bird C9.

Probability mostly. It actually

couldn't

just as easily be C9 or Two of Four A7, although either one is still possible.

It IS possible that the obv-doc-hunting night-kill was part of a ruse for JDodge to propose Godfather C9 today; hence why I was hesitant to call Godfather C9 certain. Even so, it's good to keep in mind.

[Vi]

January 8 seems okay for now. As much as I don't to force a decision in a touchy situation like this, I want a decision to be made in the first place; and I'm cynical enough to believe it'll take a deadline to do it.

Please note the V/LA in my signature... I'll see you in a few days.

[Vi]

Catleia does not like you and will bump this topic until you say something.

[Vi]

Why in the

fuck

would you not accept a deadline

extension

when you know that not only is someone going to be gone for a week, possibly more, but that you will also be gone?

*You promised you would be back well before the deadline
*I knew I would be back well before the deadline
*I'm sick of the

nothing

going on in this game, and I know others are (or should be) too.

-------

WIFOM.

Allow me to save us some time - you'll go on some tangent about how it's not really WIFOM and WIFOM is a term that's overused by people who don't know what it means when really that is the

biggest fucking cop-out in the book

. You

KNOW

that's pure, unadulterated bullshit you're attempting to shovel down our collective gullets, otherwise you wouldn't have defused it with your little "IT'S GOOD TO KEEP IN MIND" line.

Are you done with the CAPS and

italics

? They make your attempt to stuff words into my mouth more convincing, or they would if I didn't have other plans.
First, you're saying that I'm going to try to talk out of both sides of my mouth - saying that it's not really WIFOM, but that I defused it with that tag (implying that I'm conceding that it is). Give me a little credit here.
Second, permit me to astonish you - what I suggested IS WIFOM. It's not possible to know either way based on the given information, though it isn't the most likely scenario. Thus, it's good to keep in mind but it's not something to concentrate on. (Which if you look at what I said in context would be the obvious conclusion.)

-------

1. No. I'm talking about D2. kuribo's overt hostility is understandable D1, but I'd think that any well-reasoned person would at least show some skepticism throughout D2. I find it somewhat odd that he did in such a way go right after you on D2.

Um... what? Rereading, I don't see him "going right after me", except to some relatively passive degree. I do see him turning to skepticism after the Doc claim.

3. What the fuck? How could you possibly draw this conclusion from that line of logic?

I didn't draw that conclusion. You did.

Not distancing. Bussing. Scumpartner seeing his partner is going down and trying to ship him out of there as soon as possible.

Um... what? I was in no danger at the time. This makes zero sense.

You had already claimed doctor, had you not? Again, I think it

incredibly

safe to assume that this is the Godfather C9 setup, thus meaning that you would (as a scumpair) have knowledge of the setup containing a doctor. This means that by you

claiming

doc you put yourself in at least 3 times as much danger as you would need to normally. Honestly, were I your scumpartner, I'd have done the same thing and attempted to get you lynched to put myself in a better position for tomorrow, especially when you consider that you're almost certainly not a godfather seeing as that would be an obnoxiously risky gambit (although somewhat clever, I don't think any scum power role in their right mind would dare claim a power role they know exists within the setup).

So let me try this again.
You) kuribo is apparently bussing you

D1

D2.
Me) Why? I (still) was not in any particular danger.
You) You claimed Doctor to make yourself more of a target. If I hadn't beaten you to it, I bet kuribo would have counterclaimed. To bus you.
Or something like that. Whatever the logic string is here, I can't find it.
Not to mention that assuming that the scumpair is Vi-kuribo, there'd be no reason for us to bus each other. Bussing as planned strategy is overrated.

-----

Fails the essential point of the jig is pretty much up when they lynch either himself or the real doc.

Not really, no.
If the real Doc is lynched, the game's over. If the GF is lynched, yes, the jig is up. I'm hypothesizing that that's why you're pushing the pressure to the other players.

Do you seriously think anyone would find either of us to be a pushover?

Not you, no.

-----

The current environmental meta dictates that active lurking is extremely scrutinized and as is such now fails the secondary scum motivation. It never fulfilled the primary scum motivation.

So since you actually care about the meta trends, you wouldn't do it. (in theory)
I'm having a hard time applying this to anyone else, since I know I haven't seen it happen outside the times I initiate said scrutiny.

Because you fail to recognize the importance of meta in the general context of a mafia game. Allow me to go off-the-subject a bit and say that this is not really at the moment a game-related gripe; this is definitely a theory subject that I want to hit on a bit. Active lurking is by definition something that should be noticed, picked up on, placed in context, compared against similar contexts, and scrutinized thusly as with everything else in the game as a whole. Nine times out of ten, people will fail at least one of steps two through four in that line. Most often three and four.

This argument indeed has become an abstraction, since I had to check to see how this related to the game at all.
In any event, this fails because it doesn't take k7-scum or SSK-scum into account, people you can't get a read on either way. Never mind people who have no past worth referencing.
And then we have your behavior D1, where you disappeared for a long time and expected us to go lynch someone or something. "Meta you"? I have, and the result is that I don't buy it as a defense in that case. I can only take willing suspension of disbelief so far, and I'm known for being generous in that area.

-----

One of the primary motivations of a townsperson is the preservation of the town, and a secondary motivation is the full scrutinization of every member of the town. I don't really think you can fulfill said secondary motivation if you're not allowing a proper defense of actions to be laid down as that means that you are looking solely at the negative whilst ignoring the redeeming and/or negating qualities.

I sense a line of garbage here.
If someone can't defend themselves, okay fine. If someone

refuses

to defend themselves, that's their problem. Besides, there's still the option of presenting a better case on someone else.

And this differs from my defense of charter how exactly?

However, the suspicion should still surface that the person being defended is scum when it piles up, or if things stop becoming fully explicable by the n00b card.

------

No, not really; yes, it removes accountability, but on the flipside it adds the illusion of complete uselessness. And in the current environmental meta, deadwood tends to be cut adrift rather quickly.

But you, unlike many others, have a meta to hide behind. So for you it's most certainly where you want to be.

[Vi]

1. Tough, deal with it. I'm not trying to stuff words into your mouth. You're projecting your own skewed ideas onto me to the point that you could just simply point your head at a screen and play movies in a theatre.

No. I'm not saying that you're going to try to talk both sides. I'm saying that you know damn well it's WIFOM but you'll use it anyways.

It's not my fault if you can't communicate effectively. As far as knowing that it's WIFOM and using it anyway, again, look at the context.

Regardless of whether you admit it is WIFOM, you're presenting it as the most obvious conclusion when in reality it is only the obvious conclusion if you so decide to take the route of say, JD is evil, Vi is ultimate good. Which in general is a bad stance to take no matter what side you're on.

I'm sorry? I am now? Based on what we know, Godfather C9 is most likely, with ideas like other setups and scum misdirection being less likely but nonetheless possible. How you got that I was saying that scum misdirection via NK was most likely...? Projection, head, screen, movies, theatre.

As far as JDodge-Evil and Vi-Holy goes, I don't see how you can substantiate that it's a bad view of the situation. There are no possible setups with two Docs. Two Docs have claimed. At least one is lying. I know I am a Doctor, ergo you are 100%

not

. Townies don't counterclaim power roles they don't have. You are Mafia. Town wins by lynching Mafia; Mafia win by misdirecting Town. This is all extremely basic stuff here. To say that my position is a bad stance presumes that either you are not scum (which I know is not the case) or that I am not the role I claim to be (which I know is not the case).

Many words, obvious point. Blah.

-----

A WTF period after your claim is reasonable with the whole thing.

ITT, JDodge doesn't read the thread. kuribo didn't question the Doc claim. kuribo questioned his scum read on me.

-----

What the everloving fuck? Do you even believe the shit that's coming out of your mouth now? You even

admit

that you can't find the string of logic, which you seem to take as a cue to fill in the blanks yourself.

Well you thought it was a viable strategy for getting people lynched D1...

3. You claimed doc to flush out the real doc. Without lynching the real doc, you stand a hefty chance of losing. I think your resistance to the lynch one of kuribo-charter play is based on this.

The problem here is as obvious as it gets in light of what I've been saying. The game ends if another Townie gets lynched.

It doesn't matter

if it's the Doctor, the Cop, a Townie, or whoever.

More WIFOM dressed up as fact. Not even a qualifier this time.

Of course there is a fucking reason for you to bus each other if you're scumpartners.

D1? Sure. D2? Not at all.

I'm saying that kuribo's bussing was opportunistic and based on your actions, not some moustache-twirling evil plot to blow up freaking China or something.

Well he's not doing a good job of it now, is he?

-----

A) We're more likely to agree on one of them over one of us today, because the game IS over today if we don't lynch (thanks again for denying us the deadline extension, Mr. Dickwad. And no, I don't mean Sim (<3))

I'm sure my voice had everything to do with Simenon's decision. Nonetheless, I'll take thanks when I can get it.
In any event, we have confirmable scum between us (not really confirmable Town, but confirmable scum). I think it would be more prudent to get THEM to agree which of US to lynch.

C) I feel that it is more fruitful to lynch between one of them because I don't believe that any GF in their right mind with a cop in the setup would fakeclaim a power-role that they know is in the setup first thing D2. Hence if I am correct and this is indeed GF C9, one of kuribo/charter must be the GF. By lynching one of them, we make it insta-win for town or insta-loss town. By lynching one of us, we make it half-way win for town or insta-loss town. I'm simply playing logic and the odds at the moment.

It's a stupid move to claim first thing as GF, sure. Counterclaiming, however, stands to be different precisely because it's not planned and you can't daytalk.

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*Do you believe yourself to be a pushover?
*Do you believe you project the facade of being a pushover?

*More than I should be.
*...Perhaps...

-----

Re: scrutiny and whatever - I think that's an obvious mischaracterization, and I AM

that guy

; but why I'd ever think I could convince you otherwise, Iunno.

-----

People don't hide behind their metas. They are their metas. The fact that you do not grasp this is why you cannot grasp my theories.

Judging people on meta alone makes alignment arbitrary. I'm not going to excuse your "activity" D1 based on how you always play. It's not a condemnation of your meta, it's what you did with it.

[Vi]

It just occurred to me that I'm not arguing to convince JDodge of anything; there's no need to.

You three other players should show up sometime.

[Vi]

I meant paying attention to the two old hens with the Doc hats.

I'll give charter vs. kuribo a look later today.

[Vi]

Four days to deadline.

charter, kuribo, Sotty7. Now would be a good time to discuss who among JDodge and myself you'll vote for. Questions are welcome.
(To head off the alternative of kuribo vs. charter, that only makes sense in Godfather C9. While Godfather C9 is probable, it's not as definite as the fact that one of me and JDodge is lying. In other words, what Sotty7 said.)

[Vi]

At this point, one of:

Vi/kuribo
Vi/charter
JD/kuribo
JD/charter

is guaranteed.

Except it's not

guaranteed

.

By lynching out of the second subset, we in effect increase our chances given random chance by a considerable margin.

WIFOM.

I will move my vote to kuribo on the day of the deadline if we go that route. I suggest Vi state whom he is willing to vote out of that group. I also want kuribo/charter to say whom they'd like to lynch out of me/Vi. If we can get a consensus between one side or the other, we have minimal reason to not go that route.

There's a noticeable problem here. If one Mafiate and one Townie are supposed to agree to lynch either the Mafiate's scumpartner or an unrelated Townie, which one do you think they're going to agree upon? You aren't even considering IYO-confirmed-Town Sotty7 in this at all, instead relying on one Mafiate to bus the other in order to hit scum today. This is a Bad Idea, straight-up.

As far as kuribo vs. charter, considering I'm not overly fond of either of them and haven't advocated either of their lynches yet (nor do I still) I would need to look over it again.

[Vi]

Did we all die in the crash or are we just waiting for something to happen?

Both. This game is hell.

...actually, just the latter option.

[Vi]

Apologies for not responding sooner in this regard.

Page 2: charter and afatchic take the same sides in calling out KrisReizer. However, charter is doing so to defend JDodge (35, 39), while afatchic seems more to be talking to KR (41, 45).

Page 3: charter pushes KR (who JDodge is also hating) (52); afatchic acts mildly and looks at other people (every post). Counterpoint:

also aviny you seem to be trying to hard to make a case against me. im sure you can pick and choose anyone in the game and find posts that don't fit right or something, so what makes mine right there so bad?

i was just explaining my thoughts on the topic at the time, which i would consider helpful. so for right now my vote just went from random to serious. that was some good guessing on page 1 wasn't it!

This seems like a scummy reaction to being called a fluffposter - asking "why not pick on someone else, since I think you could" seems like denying any case on him at all.
afatchic 72 sees him call Moospiker on OMGUS; charter simply blows smoke to say Moospiker is probably scum (the reason was stated earlier as Moospiker "fishing for power roles" by asking for a claim on Page 3, which I don't grasp the logic behind; see Page 8) (74).

Page 4: afatchic 75 seems pro-Town. His reasons for not voting Moospiker to L-1 seem pro-Town, whereas charter refuses the "newb card". Again I see they're agreeing, but I like afatchic's way of going about it than charter's.

Page 5: charter calls afatchic on "coming around" to the Moospiker case (104, 109), but afatchic and Moospiker counter that they have been dialoguing for "half the game". afatchic 110 is a thorough rebuttal of it that reads to me as very pro-Town. charter counters by asking why afatchic didn't express disapproval of the claim until after charter did, but I think this is a weak point - people don't have to say EVERYTHING they're suspicious of at any given time, though it helps. JDodge attacks afatchic for "awkward buddying to Moo" (117), which doesn't make sense IMO. charter 121 denies Moospiker 98 (giving up) is a bad post and calls it a Town point, but keeps his vote on him while calling afatchic on his vote on Moospiker (huh?).

Page 6: charter 128 pushes the Moospiker lynch (without giving any indication he did the reread to see if Moospiker was a good votee in 109). afatchic 136 votes Moospiker after asking why he should be lynched largely because the game has come to a halt, and I can sympathize, having been in similar situations. charter declines to talk about his suspicions, saying he shouldn't do so before night; afatchic agrees here.

Page 7: However, after Moospiker claims, charter still refuses to do discuss his opinions even though they're no longer in a near-night situation (152)! afatchic explains the near-night reason for not talking about their suspicions, but he wasn't being asked to list his suspicions so :v
JDodge (155) votes afatchic and basically tells us to figure out the reason on our own; also says charter gets "points off". JDodge (160) also hits afatchic in for apparently trying to use Moospiker's breadcrumb against him, when that's not what he was doing. It seems to me that JDodge already knew Moospiker was telling the truth.
charter 162 puts up a case against Avinyl, which was kinda holey but since most cases have been up to this point I'm not interested in poking it. afatchic 168 sounds like legitimate townie RAGE at the stuff being pushed on him.

Page 8: charter calls Moospiker's breadcrumb b.s. because he asked for a claim. afatchic agreed, but M-M started to dialogue on it. As soon as that happened, charter stopped the conversation immediately. When asked to give his opinion on afatchic, he says "eh, null". Woo. I think my initial read of afatchic's posts was mistaken.

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Lots of pages where charter asks OMG VOTE ELDARAD OMG VOTE ELDARAD PRODS PLEASE PEOPLE VOTE ELD, which I've already expressed disapproval of.
-----

Page 14: charter likes me more now that I'm not voting him and questioning eldarad.

Page 15: kuribo puts out the hate on me, massively, mostly stemming from KrisReizer. No negative comments on JDodge. kuribo characterizes afatchic as seeming scummy regardless of alignment, which especially in light of the earlier analysis is striking in a bad way. kuribo says I haven't answered "other suspicions" he has of me, but doesn't say what they are. charter 362 catches this nicely; he also asks why kuribo no longer suspects Moospiker after Page 6 (this question never gets answered). JDodge jumps off afatchic/kuribo and onto eldarad, reportedly because it's more likely to reach a lynch before deadline. kuribo basically admits his case on me is a result of KrisReizer's scumminess in 370. charter pressures JDodge (weakly) for his vote on eld, which seems strange considering his incessant insistence to vote eldarad.

Page 16: JDodge weakly distances from kuribo by wondering why he didn't see KrisReizer as pro-Town in the least (388). charter gives up on JDodge and goes back to eldarad :v

Day 2: kuribo denies JDodge's attempt to get either charter or kuribo lynched today, while charter is the first one to propose credence to it even though initially he doesn't understand it (521, 523). I like kuribo's openness. charter 541 says that Vi is generically scummier than a specific point on JDodge, which is odd (I'm still not sure how I became scummy IHO in the first place, aside from because I voted him D1). charter is obviously eating out of JDodge's hand theorywise; I agree with kuribo 550, 551, and 554. I like charter 580 as an attempt to put together a case on the person being accused, but it IS as weak as kuribo called it out to be ("never answered questions about himself" should read "never answered questions AT himself" for it to become the only decent point against kuribo specifically).

Oh, and I somehow missed this.

VI

Daykill: charter

Bottom line: afatchic << D1 charter < D1 kuribo < D2

charter

Not that either of them should be today's lynch, as said before.

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Posts like this scream vote Vi in my head. I don't do it because I think Jdodge is actually scum.

Why?

-----

And since there has been no quicker attempt on anyone thus far, if you're saying that Vi/JD, kuribo/charter, or Sotty/anyone is anywhere near worth mentioning as a possibility at this point, you're a bit completely out of your mind.

The first two? Of course not. Sotty7/you is a possibility, albeit pretty unlikely - but still not anything I'm interested in taking a chance on.

Cold, hard fact. Do the math, or look at one of my many posts where I do the math for you. Then again, I've given up on you actually reading the context of any of my statements after during our last little debate (which was, you know, actually helping) where you just said screw it and decided to completely ignore everything I said.

Your math is based on WIFOM - that the GF wouldn't counterclaim. There is no "cold, hard fact" involved.
Also, bird in hand = two in the bush, etc.

Au contraire; by forcing them to agree, we guarantee that we're lynching someone at least one townie agrees upon. I want to use Sotty as a tiebreaker. Furthermore, forcing scum to commit to a suspicion is generally a good thing.

Well

obviously

in a situation where there are two scum and three for a majority one Townie is going to agree to the lynch. Forcing scum to commit isn't a bad thing, but I wouldn't use it to get a lynch. It still doesn't solve the problem of trusting that scum will bus each other to stay alive today.

[Vi]

Well, either Jodge is scum and me voting him will be good, or he's town and he's about to get lynched anyway.

unvote, vote Jdodge

Go Town!

If you had to choose based on something other than the collective's convenience, which would you have picked? (not necessarily between me and JDodge)

[Vi]

gj Sotty7 and JDodge. JDodge joins the rather lengthy list of people who have made a fool of me.

ftr kuribo should have been lynched the moment he said I DON'T LURK.