Mini 703 - A Roccisi Autumn - Over
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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Having actually read this particularly juicy first couple of pages... (only had a few minutes before)
brain of wombat = severe newbie/village idiot (not calling you an idiot that's just a term). Basically you haven't yet realized how games normally play and you said some things that put you in hot water.
On the other hand rage should not be chastised for calling BoW out for what he said because itisinherently scummy (i.e. calling for a mass claim right at the start of day 1 etc.) and he will never learn otherwise. I think people are focusing too much on rage's assertion that he took BoW's words "out of context", which is admittedly a bad choice of phrase, but isn't necessarily what he did. A better description of what he did would be "focusing on this particular sentence from his post" or something.
I think what I'm saying makes sense...
Anyway I'm going to guess that both rage and BoW are town and the mafia is happily sitting back and watching this unfold with two fairly viable day 1 wagons to choose from.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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Taking someone's words out of context generally has negative connotations, i.e. when someone takes one part of someone else's post in order to misconstrue it's meaning to cast them in a bad light, when in the framework of the original post the part was harmless. A simplistic example of this would be if someone said "why do people think I am scum?" and someone else quoted him as saying "I am scum".Rage wrote:
The sole purpose of me stating that I took his words out of context was for people to realize that I was focusing on a certain phrase he wrote. The fact that I used the words "out of context" was to assert that, yes, I was indeed taking it out of context. I realized what I was doing by saying so, which is what the phrase "out of context" usually amounts to.ThAdmiral wrote:I think people are focusing too much on rage's assertion that he took BoW's words "out of context", which is admittedly a bad choice of phrase, but isn't necessarily what he did. A better description of what he did would be "focusing on this particular sentence from his post" or something.
What you did was similar, but not the same. You focused on one part of BoW's post in order to draw attention to it and re-interpret it in your own way (which you believe made him look scummy). The difference is it wasn't his words you were using against him as evidence, but the interpretation of his words, which remainedinthe context of his original post.
Once again I think I'm making sense...
@ korts: I'm a bit suspicious of tarballs. He says he isn't sure of his suspicion on rage and that he mistakes can happen and that he doesn't want an accidental lynch, and then when he realizes that rage only has 3 votes on him he votes as well saying "we're not in the danger zone".
Just smacks a little of scumlike cautiousness not to be seen to be acting too recklessly, and then scumlike opportunism when he sees an opportunity for a "safe" bandwagon vote (i.e. one that hopefully wouldn't be focused on if it lead to a town lynch).-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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I can definitely see where mcavity was coming from (btw is that from cats?).
I can understand if he was not so much asking for clarification on brain's "claim", but basically looking at the words he said, namely:
and thenBrain of Wombat wrote:I'm just an average townie, that's it.
and thinking "how can that not be a full claim?"Brain of Wombat wrote:I'm not making a full on claim yet
I agree that brain deserved to be called out on that.
Furthermore, on the topic of claims, I am going to have to presume that puta has hinted at his/her claim with the lady macbeth stuff and the violent post about killing ecto's cat, and that he/she/it is somehow involved with the serial killer/mafia.
Sovote: puta puta
(maybe this will get him/her/the thing posting more helpfully...)-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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Perhaps he thinks that is what he is supposed to do...Korts wrote:
What benefit do you suppose he'd have by breadcrumbing to be scum, of all things?ThAdmiral wrote:Furthermore, on the topic of claims, I am going to have to presume that puta has hinted at his/her claim with the lady macbeth stuff and the violent post about killing ecto's cat, and that he/she/it is somehow involved with the serial killer/mafia.
He's pretty new as well.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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I don't think there's any reason behind it, but puta insists his posts are hints, and all the hints so far lead to killers.
If they do then he's scum/sk. If they don't he's not in fact utilising any reason/logic and is just being unhelpful. Either way I'm pretty happy with his lynch.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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My second mention of it was basically putting that idea to rest. Are you seriously trying to suggest I am attempting to prevent a puta lynch?darkdude wrote:
If there is a jester in closed setup then it is bastard modding. Not much can be done about that, so we shouldn't worry about it.Also I think you are lying. And the likelihood of you being jester is minimal since you passed on what (you thought) was a chance to self-lynch, so I'm definitely happy with you dying.
However, I find the fact that you keep pointing out the possibility of jester (this is the second time, I believe) to be more interesting. It doesn't do anything other than to make town potentially hesitate a lynch.
To be honest...no I hadn't read post #2. My bad.Tarballs wrote:People:Have you actually read post #2? That tells us all the possible roles that may exist in this game, and I certainly can't find a Jester from that list. Even thinking about the possibility of a Jester is totally useless.
Also, I find it a bit silly how some people are already trying to find scum pairings. I'd say that we lynch whoever seems the scummiest, see if that person flips scum, and if they do,thengo and find someone with a connection to the lynched scum.
Also I totally agree with the second paragraph.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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I've never really thought of buddying as a good scum-tell. Am I underestimating it?Korts wrote:
Damn what a scummy post.MacavityLock wrote:Yeah, Puta, you're going to have to explain those two posts. Like every word of them except maybe for "Vote."
Unvote Rage. One of the best first posts I've seen. A+++. Would buy again.Vote: Wombat
Ecto: Do you really want a massclaim, or are you looking for reactions? Because my reaction is NO!First, clear buddying up to Rage, and then ruining Ecto's bait. Almost like saying "hey scumbuddies, don't fall forthattrap".-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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Do you mean you would say this regardless of whether you were actually planning to set up a claim or not? (if you were the vig that is)Korts wrote:That said, I'm not setting up any kind of claim for myself. (Of course I would say that.) I think your theory makes sense from an objective point of view though.
Village idiot.Rage wrote:
Sorry, what's this?ThAdmiral wrote:i still claim VI
Basically a townie (generally a new player) who does/says somewhat stupid stuff.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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Righto.Korts wrote:If I was the vig and wanted to breadcrumb, I wouldn't deny it. If I was the vig and didn't intend to say so, I'd have just messed with my own claim by basically forcing myself to immediately claim either vig or non-vig. My point was, if I was scum setting up a fakeclaim, I wouldn't admit to it, obviously.
The mafia would have most likely told him not to if he was one.Korts wrote:If you think BoW is a VI, what do you think is the possibility that he'd raise the idea of a cop claim after he'd been shot down for the same the previous day? There's a learning curve yes. But I'd assume even newbtown to have some sense as to raising a point he'd been attacked for fiercely once.
I've always found you learn much faster as a newbie if you are paired with scum or mason as they will want to keep you alive as well.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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This is the best bit.Ectomancer wrote:Tell me why he would discourage discussion about one of our discoveries (the gun inventor), yet encourage discussion about our amnesiac cop. He even goes so far as toask the recipient of the message to breadcrumb!So you can kill him tonight before he reveals the only result we might have?
I'm going tovote: darkdudeas well.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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To be fair your reply was pretty good, but I still think the case against you is the strongest I've seen so far in this game.darkdude wrote:I really hope you guys are reading what I wrote... because I get the impression that you didn't.
I trust that this means my reply to it did not satisfy you?ThAdmiral wrote:This is the best bit.
I'm going to vote: darkdude as well.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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hey i'm back everyone.
ugh, information lynches.Rage wrote:My position before I continue is that there's much more to be learned from a Brain of Wombat lynch than a Darkdude lynch.
By the way I've reread the darkdude case, and I've gone off it.
It's the question mark. I believe darkdude when he says he was truly asking whether that was the best course of action (for the record it clearly wasn't). Sounvote.
As much as I wanted to believe we had "caught" scum, I don't think we have. He may turn out to be scum, but I don't think the argument on him now is valid.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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I unvoted darkdude in 336,
also in the first one, in the wagon decrease column, bow goes from 3-2, then to 2-3, and then to 1-0. i.e. up not down in the middle one.
I'm sure there are a few more minor errors, but those are the one's that popped out at me when I glanced at it.Don't ask me to provide self meta-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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I don't see vote hopping as a scum tell. Some people tend to only vote for one person a day while others tend to throw their votes around. Others still may just not be sure of things and will change their mind a few times.Adel wrote:EBWOP:A question for our lurkers (ThAdmiral,Tarballs, tubby,chuckand IH):
Who do you think has been vote hopping more: Korts or Darkdude?
Why do you or don't you count that as a scum tell against either of them?
However, seeing as you will call the above a non-answer, I would have to say that while korts has been hopping around more (on a purely numerical basis) I would say darkdude has been doing it in a more potentially suspicious way.
I believe you can see the train of logic in kort's votes more. Day one he started with a random on ecto (so that doesn't really count) then a vote on rage for the asking bow to claim thing. After that he didn't really vote-hop as much as flip between puta and ecto, two people he had expressed suspicion of and had linked as scum partners. On day two he started with a vote on tarballs because, assumedly, he always likes to have a vote onsomebody. After that it took quite a bit of convincing on ecto's behalf to get him to change his vote to darkdude.
Darkdude, however, seems to have been a little more opportunistic with his votes, getting on wagon favorites bow, rage and puta day one (with the lurker vote of tubby thrown in). Day two I believe he has just voted IH. Why? "Ugh..".
On a different topic: when you say "lurkers", do you mean in the traditional sense, or some sort of "vote-lurker", i.e. someone who hasn't voted for many different people?-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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here are my last three games as scum:
(i realised I could look through all my old posts through my profile)
friends and enemies 2.0
strawberry mafia
texas justice mafia-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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@ adel: first of all thank you for the kind words. I'm blushing a bit.
Secondly, could the long informative posts come from being asked questions? I feel like I can respond well to that.
How about everybody ask me one (or more) question(s).
Or I could just do the long posts myself...
Thirdly i think the post stats between me, tubby and darkdude can be interpreted in many ways. I think mainly, however, it is just due to darkdude being in the "public eye" more, and therefore being commented on more, than us.
Finally I like the rage case. It would have been more clear cut if there had been a kill last night (because if there had been and it wasn't rage this would become more obvious), but I still think it's a good case.
Good gambit if so.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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Having reviewed the adel case on rage (i.e. that rage's counter claim was something they'd practiced) I find I like it as a possibility less and less. Mainly because if they are going to do gambits such as this I believe they would play down the fact that they knew each other so well (and therefore lead less people to think they would try a gambit like that in the first place).
I was sure darkdude was scum. I just wanted to see if we could get anymore out of him before he died.Rage wrote:Either that, or ThAdmiral is scum with darkdude because he quickly found his spot on the darkdude bandwagon when it was forming, and upon darkdude's questioning he simply said he found the case to be the strongest he had seen. He unvoted later after finding the argument on darkdude unappealing.After darkdude's claim, he ends up asking if he can be the hammer vote without any input about his thoughts on darkdude's claim.I'm keeping my eye on this.
I don't like that there is a bit of deflection at the end of your long post (mainly to insanepenguin and me).
@ adel: rages post 520 in this game is (I believe) most similar to his post 755 in 634 (i.e. the one where he was town), as it seems more orderly and less pressured than the one he made as scum (167 in 632). However he was at -1 in that post so it is makes sense he was under a bit more pressure.
Basically I don't know how much bearing it has on his alignment.
This is actually a good question.afatchic wrote:I haven't done much of a reread yet. i replaced into multiple games near the same time because i usually have sympathy for games needing replacements since i hate games i play in when people bail and no one is willing to replace. but now i have finally caught up in the others, so this one is next. but can someone explain to me why we are all voting a claimed tracker?
Seriously - occams razor: the most obvious thing is often the right one. In this case he most likely is the tracker (rather than a scum buddy pulling a gambit).
I am currently against a rage lynch, and with every vote that is put against him I find myself more against it.
I am currently getting more suspicious of korts, and will build a case against him.
But not now, I've got to go late night christmas shopping...-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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Rather than answering all your questions specifically I will answer the lot by just elaborating.Ectomancer wrote:
Does this happen to you with every wagon you are against? Why mention it unless it is unusual for you? If it is unusual for you, then it isn't the votes that are increasing your resistance, but something surrounding the votes.ThAdmiral wrote:I am currently against a rage lynch, and with every vote that is put against him I find myself more against it.
Can you put some more elaboration into this statement?
Basically this seems to be one of those situations where there is a lot of focus on the one person (in this case rage). It is also one of those situations where it seems anything that person does (be it respond casually or panicked to accusations against them, or to answer in depth or answer bluntly) only seems to get them into more trouble and so more votes pile on. This one seems like a bit of a runaway train, especially since it moved from -3 to -1 (kison and korts) before rage could get a word in.
Big Korts case coming up.Adel wrote:Wouldn't it be awesome if ThAdmiral voiced a strong opinion on other people's alignment once in a while?
(but it is chrismtas eve so it might be a while before I have some more free time and I have to post in my other games as well)-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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Alright I know I said I was going to make a case against korts, but having looked over his posts I don't really find anything that scummy, and anything I would have come up with would have only been the result of major witch-hunting.
Basically I began to get suspicious of korts because he seemed to be going after ecto a lot. And this was suspicious to me because...
I know that ecto is town.
I was the recipient of puta's investigation night one and it said that ecto was innocent. I was thinking of holding back this information till tomorrow but I figured it would be basically as useful now as it would be then.
I've been pretty busy with work/engaged in holiday activities recently so haven't been able to put in the time I would have liked with this game, hence I don't really have any solid leads.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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Firstly its "reeks", secondly why does it reek of scum?tubby216 wrote:however i do not like admirals post #620 that wreaks of scumminess
Cause I wasn't contributing much and wanted to give something to the town.tubby216 wrote:@admiral, why did you feel it nessacary to reveal that info?
Also I've been in too many games where I've held information back a day too long, so I thought I'd just get it out there now.
No.Korts wrote:ThAdmiral, did you follow darkdude's suggestion to breadcrumb?
Although as you will see I've always treated ecto as a town player.
It's long. Will read when I get home from work.Rage wrote:
Why? If you were sure and others weren't (since he wasn't immediately hammered) why did you think we could get any more out of him? I find it scummy how you can say you were sure he was scum, but at the time you said nothing about his claim. You just seemed focused on getting him lynched.[/qupte]ThAdmiral wrote:Rage wrote:Either that, or ThAdmiral is scum with darkdude because he quickly found his spot on the darkdude bandwagon when it was forming, and upon darkdude's questioning he simply said he found the case to be the strongest he had seen. He unvoted later after finding the argument on darkdude unappealing.After darkdude's claim, he ends up asking if he can be the hammer vote without any input about his thoughts on darkdude's claim.I'm keeping my eye on this.I was sure darkdude was scum.I just wanted to see if we could get anymore out of him before he died.
I knew he was scum, because he claimed I didn't get targeted on night 0, which was a lie.
Rage wrote:@ThAdmiral, what do you think of my case on insanepenguin02?-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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Because puta targeted me and gave me his cop result night 0.Rage wrote:
You knew you were targeted on Night 0? Elaborate, please. And, no, I don't consider this fishing because he has said it so blatantly.ThAdmiral wrote:I knew he was scum, because he claimed I didn't get targeted on night 0, which was a lie.
Bolding mine:tubby216 wrote:admiral,
you are saying you must have been trargeted (ie someone came to visit you) because you recieved puta's results and puta had to give them to you right?
Yes
but why did you feel that was the right way to contribute?
Cause I wasn't doing much to contribute otherwise. At least now I've provided something to talk about.
why diddn't you add to adel's and kison's interogation of me?
It seemed they had it covered.
Although I did think it got a bit brutal at times, I thought it was best to let it play out.
to both admiral and fatrchic,
how do you feel about the cases before you now the one on me and the one on insanepenguin and rage?
Still haven't read rage/insanepenguin's case.
The case on you is probably the best one, but I'm not sure anyone would look good under such sustained pressure.
do you believe rage's claim to be true?
yes
I haven't even finished reading everything yet. This game is hard to keep up with.Adel wrote:tubby216, afatchic, & ThAdmiral: please vote or otherwise express who you think is most likely scum, and why.
I do know I won't be voting for ecto or rage though.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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Will work on the "good quality post" (and hope that doesn't turn into another empty promise), but for your other q's:insanepenguin02 wrote:I have to say that you have been full of empty promises throughout the duration of the game. You have made some quality comments and analyses but it seems to be more likely to get nothing from you, as in the “case” against Korts. Could you make a good, quality post showing where you think people stand? Why didn’t you vote for dd on day 2 but voted for puta on day 1 (wanting to keep scum but vote off town)? I need more info here. Thanks!
I did vote for dd day 2, but then unvoted because I began to think the reason I voted for him was unjustified.
I voted for puta day one because he was being ridiculously unhelpful. It got to a stage where I didn't even care if he was town or not.
To be honest I thought the discussion was a bit ridiculous.Ectomancer wrote:ThAdmiral - At one point in game Korts and I were arguing over whether one of us bussed Darkdude. Who did you think more likely to win the discussion? Did you think that it would result in the lynch of one of us?
This was for a few reasons. Mainly because I was confused as to why you seemed so certain there was bussing going on, and why you kept trying to include yourself as a suspect. It was a bit distracting, and I don't think it helped much or made the situation regarding possible bussing clearer (furthermore I sort of stopped reading your posts when they became a battle of semantics of whether one should include oneself as a suspect).
I didn't think it would lead to either of you getting lynched because no one else was getting involved in the conversation, and therefore it was unlikely people were going to start voting based on it.
Finally my stance on the argument was skewed since I knew you were town.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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This is a rundown of how i'm feeling about everybody. It is unfortunately not very long.
Ectomancer - town due to innocent result.
Rage - believe his claim, so town.
tubby216 - reacted to pressure poorly, but there was a lot of pressure put on him. not sure, but would not protest his lynch although probably wouldn't take part.
insanepenguin02 - mostly confusing, and has mainly said stuff I don't agree with. The main one is the whole "I hammered darkdude so I can't be scum" thing (note: that was not an actual quote - I was almost lynched in another game for this because it was deemed to be misrepresenting). Once again would not protest his lynch, and this time I probably would take part.
Kison - my vote is on him at the moment, but it is not so much that he is a very good suspect, but that I don't have any very good suspects, and he is at least a fairly good suspect.
Korts - posts a lot, and that generally sways me in to thinking someone is more likely town, but this is flawed reasoning, and there is something in my gut that doesn't like him in this game. Don't have any actual reason to suspect him though, and he was instrumental in lynching darkdude, so town points there.
afatchic - replaced a bunch of people I didn't really have a tell on, and I still don't really have a tell on afatchic. Just refreshed the game and saw korts most recent post, and have to agree that the last page or so is not good.
Adel - I think adel is town, at least I certainly hope adel is town, because he is having a large influence on this game.
Has been very pro-town with scum-hunting/pressure/discussion-encouraging. My question is: due to metagaming, would adel-scum feel the need to do so much pro-town activity so as not to be obviously scum, or could adel-scum just not contribute as much and get away with it?-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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I believe he is the town tracker.Kison wrote:
Again, I'll ask this: do you believe that he is aThAdmiral wrote:Rage - believe his claim, so town.tracker? The reason I ask this is because the front page clearly indicates that the tracker can be a scum role. So if you merely believe the claim, I must ask why you believe he is town as a result of it.
In this case I am far more inclined to think you are town.Adel wrote:
my last game as scum was Mature MafiaThAdmiral wrote: My question is: due to metagaming, would adel-scum feel the need to do so much pro-town activity so as not to be obviously scum, or could adel-scum just not contribute as much and get away with it?
IMHO I lurked through that game, or active lurking anyways, I always made sure that I was more active than 1/3rd of the other players.
I felt like I could get away with it against a cast of veteran players that included: DrippingGoofball, Talitha, zu_Faul, Pooky, mathcam, Glork, elvis_knits, Macros, Axelrod, Phoebus, & Werebear.
Check out my wiki for the rest of my games as scum. They are all there.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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I believe he is town since his claim lead to the lynch of a mafiate.Korts wrote:ThAdmiral, why do you draw the conclusion that since Rage's claim is believable, his alignment must be town also? Or is the conclusion of his alignment independent of his claim?
Yes. One of the first games I played on this site actually. Mini 548. Mastermind of sin was playing and pretty much won the game himself.Adel wrote:@ThAdmiral: do you recall ever playing in a game where I was scum before?
Your style was similar there (in that you did the big colorful graph thing and were quite active), however you seemed to be targeting lurkers more and I seem to remember you getting quite flustered when attacked.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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You should vote, afatchic.
I will go with ip before the dealine. Something about the way he did the whole "oh well looks like I'm going to be lynched, I'm town though" thing right after he got put to -1 when things were still in the balance makes me think it might have been a scum ploy to scare away any more votes.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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'Tis true, sadly.Adel wrote:In 3 player endgame I trust his judgment more than pretty much anyone else here, including myself.Before then, he sucks.
Basically I don't know how useful a case from me will be though. I don't really have strong feelings about anyone (apart from ecto who I feel strongly is town) and would have to make up one from scratch. Furthermore I think my read of this game in general has been bad, so I don't know how much you could trust any case I brought up anyway.
I mean I could do it (and probably will), but I also think you could just kill me, ip and afatchic and either one of us would come up as scum and town would win, or even if one of us didn't I'd trust the remaining town members to win it from there.-
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ThAdmiral Jack of All Trades
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I still do...to a certain degree.Kison wrote:
...Speaking of which, didn't you think I was scum just yesterday, ThAdmiral?ThAdmiral wrote:why do you think kison is town?
Basically I think that there is a greater chance that there is scum out of one of afatchic and ip, but I can't seem to shake the feeling that you are the remaining scum. This is for many reasons but mainly because a lot of people have you high on their town lists for reasons that aren't apparent to me, which always makes me suspicious.
I have a question for you: is this your normal level of activity in a game, and would you say you have been playing quite pro-town in this game?