Mini Normal 2313: I am sitting in a room (game over)

[Black]

Hey there, fellow Mafia enthusiasts!

Hi Charles! This post was really cute

vote Generic

This made me lol

Must be dog people

scoffs

~~~

VOTE: BlackStar

There can be only one black

[Black]

VOTE: Shrek

thef irst one through the gate is always mafia

How much do you actually believe this? Just curious

[Black]

Yeah I kinda did haha. Whoops

[Black]

I’m not yeeting black today. I like her style.

This makes me not want to yeet you. So I guess we have an alliance?

The Generic Black Crayons coming to a Town near you!

[Black]

There’s no need for black on black crime lol

[Black]

lol I love how yall had the exact same reaction to that post as me, and by Charles not having it, and ignoring it completely, slightly sus of Charles for a partner

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

I didn't find Wiz's post scummy at all tbh. I think townies get nervous and worry about what people think about them a lot

Also wanna agree with the crowd that using ChatGPT kinda ruins the spirit of the game

[Black]

bob feels town. I like his point re: Andante. Making associations this early kinda feels like they are trying to do too much? Like "hey I'm solving I'm so town"

[Black]

i tried reading but my brain hurts. ill check in later

[Black]

I’m going to have to iso black because I feel a sense of coasting from the latest post. I don’t remember her doing that up to now but I don’t remember what she has done. :shrug:

that seems like a you problem. i'm not coasting i'm just horribly hungover lol

i'll post more later

[Black]

"i don't remember what she's done"

that's the you problem

my memory is shit too so i can't really make fun of you for it

[Black]

Gumiguy is town. that's my strongest tr

why?

[Black]

his one post 102 actually pinged me. this seems like a really easy spot for scum to chime in and try to pocket you

[Black]

i agree with 66 that bug's readslist is a good sign. bug is probably town

[Black]

I liked 102, that seemed like it comes from town

meh. i guess we are looking at it differently. to me it felt kinda diplomatic and fence-sitty

[Black]

i agree with 66 that bug's readslist is a good sign. bug is probably town

I feel like calling town for only the readslist is dangerous though, like yes good look, but we've had nothing since, so ehhh

true, but the day is only two IRL days long. the fact that bug hasn't posted more hasn't pinged me yet. and yeah posting a readslist isn't inherently townie but i tend to townread it when a newbie does it for some reason

[Black]

i agree with 66 that bug's readslist is a good sign. bug is probably town

I feel like calling town for only the readslist is dangerous though, like yes good look, but we've had nothing since, so ehhh

true, but the day is only two IRL days long. the fact that bug hasn't posted more hasn't pinged me yet. and yeah posting a readslist isn't inherently townie but i tend to townread it when a newbie does it for some reason

the list is kinda all bug has done... like where's the live interaction with anyone?

this seems like a playstyle thing to me. not everyone is a live poster. i think it

could

indicate a nervous or uncertain newbscum but i'm not ready to believe that just yet

[Black]

dannflor, is there a reason you didn't acknowledge or respond to Wiz's 61?

[Black]

that's fair

[Black]

VOTE: Gumiguy

[Black]

oh hey Beetlejuice. can you elaborate on your town vibes with those two?

[Black]

I've only played one game with Andante and she was town. She played pretty much identical to this at the start of the game. Obviously she could mimic this behavior as scum but it's worth noting that the behavior itself isn't scummy, at least not from her

[Black]

VOTE: Charles510

[Black]

UNVOTE:

I kind of expected a different response from Charles here if he's a new player that rolled scum. I feel like it's more likely he would ask for advice in the scum PT rather than quickly posting that he'll read and "come up with some stuff"

[Black]

VOTE: Gumiguy

[Black]

I also don't think scum would thank me here lmao

Charles is probably town tbh

[Black]

UNVOTE:

I kind of expected a different response from Charles here if he's a new player that rolled scum. I feel like it's more likely he would ask for advice in the scum PT rather than quickly posting that he'll read and "come up with some stuff"

Thank you for that. I'm pretty new to mafia and don't know what to say.

If you don't have any reads, that's not inherently scummy. Townies can struggle with this too. I would advise you to try and comment on stuff as it happens. Give us your unfiltered thoughts. Start thinking about what some of these actions could mean for a player's alignment

You brought up Andante calling Gumiguy the most town player in the game. What does that mean to you?

[Black]

I’m going to keep my vote on Charles for now—I admit that reaction wasn’t what I expected, but I feel like I should just keep my eye on him anyway.

Any thoughts on Gumiguy?

[Black]

Team is probably like bob/dann/animated

VOTE: animated

Man we really are seeing this game differently. Bob and Wiz are probably my biggest townreads lol

[Black]

I’m going to keep my vote on Charles for now—I admit that reaction wasn’t what I expected, but I feel like I should just keep my eye on him anyway.

Any thoughts on Gumiguy?

I think Gumi fits in a similar category as Charles and Shrek—not a lot of anything posted here. The main reason I went for Charles over the others is that he immediately responded to someone talking about him and only said, “yes.” The other two seem to just not be on much, but that behavior makes me think he’s on but just watching, which is more suspicious?

I mean in Charles's defense, the question was "do you find everyone null?". If he's town and this is true, "yes" feels like an appropriate response. It seems like you are dogging Charles for this without considering the context

[Black]

This is the second time Gumiguy has jumped in as pressure is building on him. I'm left wondering if we even would have gotten 218 had he not gotten two votes recently. Using RVS as a reason for the Wiz vote feels artificial imo

[Black]

I'm just pointing out the possible scum motivation behind your actions. I'm not convinced you are scum but you haven't done anything to make me think you are townie either

[Black]

hu tao did you know Generic is an IC

I just found this out trying to make a reads list and noticed that next to his name

sure you can be town for that

Agreed

[Black]

If you isolate Blackstar’s posts, it is almost entirely just three things:

1. Talking with Charles.
2. Scumreading Andante.
3. Defending himself… a lot.

I don’t know if this is the most convincing evidence we’ve ever had D1, but his posts are rather limited in scope and that’s rather telling, I think. If we talk a few days more we can probably see if that trend continues or not—I’m inclined to vote for him if it stays similar, but it’s only been about two and half days since we started.

This post gives me weird vibes. First of all I don't really think defending yourself is inherently scummy. I think certain town players are inclined to defend themselves against every wrong push. That's not really what's weird here though. It's the last part:

I’m inclined to vote for him if it stays similar, but it’s only been about two and half days since we started.

What is the point of saying this? You're basically letting BlackStar know "hey, this is kinda scummy, and I'm gonna vote for you unless you do other stuff". And two posts later BlackStar posted a long reads list. How do we know if that was natural or if he's just trying to avoid your vote? What's keeping you from voting BlackStar here when you've pretty much moved on from Charles in your mind?

[Black]

interesting response

What's interesting about it?

[Black]

in particular if you read his first post where he states -

I'm pretty sure that post was written by ChatGPT lol

I don't like Afrayed's vote on Charles

[Black]

I was hoping that saying what I did would make him say other stuff for me to analyze, natural or not—which he did.

I don't believe this was actually your motive when writing that. I think you just made this up on the spot

I’m not fully moved on from Charles, and I’m not fully aboard on the BlackStar train either, but I figured that if I could pressure him to say more it would help me make a decision.

This feels a little fence-sitty. And if pressuring him was your motive, I'm curious why you chose a subtle, discreet way (threatening to vote) instead of just asking him questions directly and forcing him to give more?

I suddenly have two reads on Wiz that are clashing. I need to think on this more

[Black]

VOTE: blackstar

I'd love to talk more with you about where you feel this game is at blackstar

What do you think about his readslist?

[Black]

I think I vibe with BlackStar town atm. He's really active and confrontational, which isn't inherently townie, but it's definitely not the ideal play for scum. He doesn't really seem to have any allies even though a lot of people are pushing him

I'm calling this right now. If Wiz flips scum then Dann is scum too

[Black]

Why do people keep thanking me when I townread them XD

[Black]

I'm tempted to vote Wiz tbh. I tried looking over his ISO again and now I can't stop scumreading him after his "gambit"

[Black]

eh why not

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

[Black]

I don't think it was a gambit personally. I think he made that up after I raised my eyebrows over it

And I think you are probably defending him because you're his partner and why would scum ever defend their buddy so openly? When Wiz flips scum you'll use this to say you can't be his partner

[Black]

what are your thoughts on adante, animatedwiz

I mean, she’s only had two posts both involving me, so I don’t think I have too much to go off of, but I feel like I can trust her somewhat?

She did explain her reasoning to me despite having also voted for me, which makes me feel like she isn’t just trying to shuffle us to an immediate elimination. Again, not enough to be concrete, but it’s something.

What do you think of her, Dann?

i tentatively think adante and black are towny

black i don't think has seemed very worried about how she comes off / appears (I might just town read the sass a little bit)

as far as adante, I think everything she's done has been pretty in line with what I know of her town game and I think the wild association guesses are much more likely to come from a town mindset overall

dannflor, is there a reason you didn't acknowledge or respond to Wiz's 61?

I did, in a way, I just said I think adante is town

the post itself gave me what i wanted in terms of animatedWiz giving some vaguely towny vibes in terms of him actually providing some content about the game and thinking about another slot in relation to him

I didn't feel the need to continue the conversation directly

Looking back on this, it reads like a stunt. A forced interaction between buddies. Dann asks Annie his opinion on Andante, Annie answers and then asks Dann his opinion on Andante. Dann doesn't respond to this question directly which is odd because I don't think I've ever seen Dann ignore someone when they ask him a question. Keep in mind the 3rd quote in this chain is not a response to Annie. Dann offers this information as a separate thought completely. When I ask him why he didn't respond to Annie, Dann says that he did indirectly. Then he adds the 4th quote because I guess he felt the need to over explain himself here which I find scummy as well

Then there's a quote (I didn't grab it here) where Annie forgets to share their read on Dann, and when asked again about it, they said they forgot and then gave a wishy washy read

I can definitely see this as a pair

[Black]

But Ani, what is your read on Dann?

Oh, thanks for reminding me! Uh, let’s see… he seems shrewd, and like he’s making a decent readlist in his head. I personally would like to hear it, but I get the feeling that it’ll come later D1 or D2 (and will probably be great then but need that time to be completed). I townread him personally, but it’s only at a moderate strength right now.

This is the Annie quote I forgot to grab

[Black]

[Hu Tau, Charles, Andante]
[Bob, BlackStar]
[Shrek, bug, Afrayed Knott]
[Gumiguy, Dannflor]
[Annie]

[Black]

Would you say he's closer to being passive and careful or confrontational? He's definitely not skirting around people. He's telling them how he feels even if they probably don't want to hear it. He's not afraid to vote and scumread people

[Black]

[Hu Tau, Charles, Andante]
[Bob, BlackStar]
[Shrek, bug, Afrayed Knott]
[Gumiguy, Dannflor]
[Annie]

What makes charles so high on your list?

I don't think 193 and 197 come from newscum

[Black]

Whoa, hold up, wait. Let me read and come up with some things.

that doesn't come from new scum??

UNVOTE:

I kind of expected a different response from Charles here if he's a new player that rolled scum. I feel like it's more likely he would ask for advice in the scum PT rather than quickly posting that he'll read and "come up with some stuff"

Thank you for that. I'm pretty new to mafia and don't know what to say.

and that too??

I already explained this but I think newscum is more likely to go to the PT for advice here instead of frantically posting that they'll find something of substance after a couple of votes pile onto them

And yeah I don't think scum would thank me for townreading them lol

[Black]

Andante what are your current thoughts on Annie?

[Black]

I’m not confident charles is town, I could be wrong

But i don’t like most of the slots scum reading him which makes me think of him as more likely to be town

basically no one is SRing him, and you didn't bat an eye at how he's one of black's top TRs??
what are your thoughts on black's reasoning for the tr on charles

Maybe he didn't bat an eye because he actually saw my reasoning and you skipped over it?

[Black]

Andante what are your current thoughts on Annie?

I already said I'm giving Animated a d1 pass, I'm limming in you/charles/ possibly dann

I'm down to go Dann tbh but I'd rather go Annie first

[Black]

Whoa, hold up, wait. Let me read and come up with some things.

that doesn't come from new scum??

UNVOTE:

I kind of expected a different response from Charles here if he's a new player that rolled scum. I feel like it's more likely he would ask for advice in the scum PT rather than quickly posting that he'll read and "come up with some stuff"

Thank you for that. I'm pretty new to mafia and don't know what to say.

and that too??

I already explained this but I think newscum is more likely to go to the PT for advice here instead of frantically posting that they'll find something of substance after a couple of votes pile onto them

And yeah I don't think scum would thank me for townreading them lol

I’m not sure I agree with scum not thanking you and I’m not sure I follow your reasoning

I think that post is much more likely to come from town. It makes sense for a townie to openly feel relieved after one person townreads them following a slew of scumreads

[Black]

I don't like a bug fade. We get no information there and I don't really thing their inactivity is all that scummy. This reads as genuine to me:

i’ll read through a few more times and offer my own thoughts/reads later when i have more time, sorry for the lack of activeness

[Black]

oh whoops i genuinely forgot i was in this

an announcement

Seeking a replacement for Shrek.

Shrek might be town

[Black]

I think scum would feel relieved too

What do you make of BlackStar doing the same thing after you said you town read that

I agree scum would feel relieved, but less likely to make a public post about it

I considered BlackStar doing it just to get a TR from me so I'm not really TRing him for it

[Black]

Ah, well, there goes my argument.

UNVOTE: Shrek

What did you mean by this? And why did you unvote?

[Black]

Probably not. Have you not been reading anything I've been posting?

[Black]

Why are you asking questions and being present when you still have many pages to read? Just curious

[Black]

Why are you asking questions and being present when you still have many pages to read? Just curious

I'm just trying to figure out who I think is scummy. Please be patient with me.

I'm very patient. Do you think asking people who they think are scummy is a better way to find scum than reading and trying to find things yourself?

[Black]

Why are you asking questions and being present when you still have many pages to read? Just curious

Do you think it's more likely to be scum indicative or town indicative for someone to try to interact in live time before catching up on many pages?

Neither, I think it's a playstyle thing. But I wanted to hear what Charles thinks

[Black]

I'm not sure I like how Black has been interacting with Charles here, doesn't feel like it's this good faith/honest way of interacting?? idk how to explain it, I'm curious if anyone else feels the same way, it feels like Black is trying to paint something charles says in a negative way? to get someone else to jump on it??

I'm bad at explaining stuff that I'm like "feels sus" but literally none of this feels like "I'm trying to sort Charles" or "What is your stance on the game charles?"

Shrug

I was just engaging with him to solidify my read there

[Black]

MERLYN!!!!!

[Black]

I think your slot is probably town due to the way your predecessor left. Don't do anything scummy to make me doubt myself

[Black]

Dannflor seems off for some reason. But not sure why.

I’m intentionally playing a little different from how I normally do

I’m trying for a high degree of read accuracy rather than making myself obv town

What kind of modifications are you making to your playstyle to achieve this?

[Black]

Dannflor seems off for some reason. But not sure why.

I’m intentionally playing a little different from how I normally do

I’m trying for a high degree of read accuracy rather than making myself obv town

What kind of modifications are you making to your playstyle to achieve this?

I’m being a little more reserved in sharing my thoughts and not as actively engaged in mediating the thread

I find when I’m playing to be obvious town scum tend to know they need to play around me and my reads get worse as a by product

My reads have always been best when I’m a spectator or someone more removed from the game

Would you mind linking a couple of your scum games?

[Black]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Blackstar I like this better

What do you find scummy about BlackStar?

[Black]

If I were a bodyguard, who should I guard tonight

I think the Mafia are curious about this too. On one hand they want to get rid of you pretty bad, but on the other you're probably a top target to protect if there is a BG. So what do scum do here? It's tricky for them

[Black]

Id be interested in hearing the scum!bob case.

same

[Black]

Scumreading someone because you're upset with them is kinda scummy, but admitting it is kinda townie lol

[Black]

Having Charles as your top scumread based on a post he didn't even write is wild

I'll have to digest the rest of that later

[Black]

Merlyn is town

[Black]

Bug, do you have any scum reads on anyone?

I'd like to hear what reads you have if you don't mind

[Black]

I want the reasons behind the reads more than anything

[Black]

Gumiguy/Hu Tao could be a pair, though I'm not sure how likely this is since I townread Hu independently. I just find it weird how Hu was the only "town/null" on Gumi's list and then he backtracked it a few minutes later. It reads as Gumi being concerned how his reads will be perceived, which could come from town, but I think is more likely to come from scum

[Black]

I want Gumi to share these thoughts without being asked to. I think that's part of the reason I have an issue with the slot

[Black]

I want Gumi to share these thoughts without being asked to. I think that's part of the reason I have an issue with the slot

You’re right. I’ve been playing way too passively. I need to actually start sharing what I think instead of just brushing everything ever off because I assume my input won’t be of any use.

I understand this feeling. I think sharing unfiltered thoughts is useful in regards to trying to sort you, even if the thoughts aren't doing much in terms of solving

[Black]

Bob what is your read on BlackStar?

[Black]

double post tell

Does this normally come from town in your experience?

[Black]

black what were you hoping to find in my scum games

you also never followed up on this despite me not answering

did you go look on your own ?

Ngl I kinda forgot about this line of questioning lol

I wanted to see if your scum meta aligns with this cool new modified way you say you are playing. Does it?

[Black]

Bob, I don't understand what you're getting at with BlackStar here. I thought he made perfect sense calling you out for doing something you just said was a red flag a moment beforehand

[Black]

black can you go into your town!Merlyn read

I think it's more likely that a townie forgets about the game and replaces out, and I've liked everything Merlyn has done since she replaced in

[Black]

black what were you hoping to find in my scum games

you also never followed up on this despite me not answering

did you go look on your own ?

Ngl I kinda forgot about this line of questioning lol

I wanted to see if your scum meta aligns with this cool new modified way you say you are playing. Does it?

not really

viewtopic.php?t=90119
viewtopic.php?t=90036

Thanks. I will try to check these out this weekend. Just curious, do you know how many scum games have you played?

[Black]

black can you go into your town!Merlyn read

I think it's more likely that a townie forgets about the game and replaces out, and I've liked everything Merlyn has done since she replaced in

what has merlyn done exactly that is towny

i think saying they've skimmed the game already but not offering any reads or gut thoughts on players upon replacing in is not a good look

I also don't really follow the reasoning about why a townie would be more likely to forget about a game, in my experience scum are empirically more likely to flake out of games

It's mostly vibes. I think she's being inquisitive and she has a soft tone that comes across as reasonable. I'm getting the feeling that she's trying to solve the game

Regarding town/scum replacing out, we must have completely different experiences here

[Black]

Do you think Merlyn is scum? What is the purpose of trying to discredit my read there? This doesn't feel like you're trying to sort me tbh

[Black]

Tell me more about why you think Merlyn might be scum.

Also, what made you choose to link those two scum games in particular?

[Black]

Bob feels like he's getting upset at people that he thinks are misrepping him and then voting for them. This feels kinda townie

@Bob: my questions are meant to sort Dann. I think he's a little scummy

Re: Merlyn. It's a short answer because I'm on mobile at work. It'll have to be good enough for you

[Black]

I think it’s worth noting that Dann’s been playing since 2013 and you and I only started in the last year or so—it could be that in the past scum tended to replace out more than town and that trend might have changed recently. That, or we just don’t have enough of a sample size, I think?

Perhaps. I'm also projecting my own thought process onto Shrek which makes it not the best read in the world. I would never replace out of a scum game barring some crazy circumstances. Obviously I can't say the same for Shrek but I find it more likely that he's town, and combined with how Merlyn came in, I feel fine calling that slot town for now

[Black]

I already said that I think skimming the game but replacing in only to not have much in the way of immediate thoughts is a bad look

What is the scum motivation behind Merlyn's entrance? She pops in, says she has skimmed, then says she needs to read more. I'm assuming she does because right after this she starts posting her thoughts. Why does this look bad to you?

[Black]

I've been busy this weekend but I'll try to play catch-up on Monday

[Black]

Black, can I get the cliffnotes on why you are scum reading me again?

Vibes and associations. Very weak read tbh

Merlyn is town

No I don’t think so.

Care you explain why you don't think so?

I asked people on the Blackstar wagon why they thought their vote was good, yet to get an answer, the same with the Ani/Wiz wagon, why.

It’s clear and I agree with Bob, that it appears the two wagons may have a split of the scum vote. Remind me please, on average the hammer is generally scum? And the tactic is to sit on two of the leading wagons and then hit with the hammer. At least from memory that’s what I recall.


FYI I’m VLA for most of the weekend. So have just skimmed the last 3 pages or so.

I also note that I didn’t give my feel on Gumi, which is probably because he’s been anway from the game more than in it. Strange no one picked that I had missed him in my summation of thoughts thus far. So when I’m back I’ll try to remedy that.

I don't like this post and I'm not really sure why

brightbluebug you have not yet cast a vote yet, not even one during rvs. If your town this is actively anti town as towns greatest power is their vote. And eliminating your own vote shifts scum voting power form 3 in 13 to 3 in 12, effectivly making the game e-2 rather than e-3

so pick some to vote you think is most likely scum even if it is a very weak scum read

I picked this quote out but really it's Bob's flurry of posts around this time that give me pause. I just feel like him trying to paint bug in a bad light feels a little forced here

I’m also fine just burning a ml on charles cause all this chatgpt stuff is annoying

I'm feeling this a little too tbh. ChatGPT should not be used to express your thoughts in Mafia. There should be a rule for this imo

I could go bug before I went blackstar. atm I'd rather keep waiting to engage with Afrayed more when they're back but I recognize that there's likely no wagon there before deadline

I'm down

Charles510, Gumiguy, BlackStar, Black why the vote on Ani/Wiz?

and

Dannflor, Hu Tao, pisskop, AnimatedWiz why the vote on Blackstar?

It was an old vote. Here lemme change it

VOTE: Afrayed Knott

[Black]

Do people really expect bug to flip scum here? To me they just seem like lurky town that is overwhelmed

[Black]

I think I naturally give newer players the benefit of the doubt here which I realize isn't the best reasoning. I felt like their apology in 149 in regards to not being active felt genuine

[Black]

Dannflor seems off for some reason. But not sure why.

Can you elaborate on this?

[Black]

strongest townreads: adante
slightly less strong but probably still town: bob, dannflor, hutao
null/leaning town: animatedwiz, gumiguy
null/leaning scum: charles maybe

everyone else i do not have enough thoughts on. this was done upon a brief skimthrough of the thread

well, now. interesting that I am missed in this. which of course helps my wagon grow, which incidentally I have just discovered as iI was reading through and reacting,

UNVOTE:

so this is the vote I'd like to cast

VOTE: birghtbluebug

but I'm a little tired of people not actually reading this game, what I will say is that in my previous time in this game I had been told that my play is scummy, even as town. And to be honest I really don't care. I have one goal here and that is to help town win. So

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Afrayed Knott

This kinda feels performative in a scummy way

Dann's recent activity is starting to smell like his play in the scum games he has quoted. maybe its hard to maintain that veil and eventually the guard drops?

Did you actually read those games? Can you elaborate on this?

Dann's recent activity is starting to smell like his play in the scum games he has quoted. maybe its hard to maintain that veil and eventually the guard drops?

I was leaning null on Merlyn, but honestly I now feel they are sitting with scum. Its not just that they have been pushing me and helped my wagon build, primarily by selective quoting and misrepping. It is also to do with the slots initial game play before the sub. So yes my opinion is changing and I would agree with Bob's reasoning concerning my wagon.

There's definitely at least one in Dann/Merlyn

Why?

[Black]

Bob your eagerness to hammer anyone that self votes is interesting. Has this always been a thing with you?

[Black]

I agree. Have you done this in other games though? Just curious

[Black]

hahahaha get fucked Im a god

[Black]

VOTE: Andante

[Black]

VOTE: Hu Tao

If Hu Tao flips scum I think Dann might flip scum too

[Black]

It's a weak association read. Just a hunch really but I think I may be onto something. I think they are both kinda scummy individually, then there's two interactions between them that concern me

I need to look at this latest VC and see the state of this game.

Why do you need a vc to tell you the state of a game?

hu tao did you know Generic is an IC

hu tao did you know Generic is an IC

I just found this out trying to make a reads list and noticed that next to his name

sure you can be town for that

The above and below sequences seem like they could have been planned out. The above just doesn't feel natural. Hu Tao asks Generic a vague question and then supposedly goes and works on a reads list. Dann takes that vague question and assumes Hu is suspecting Generic as scum. Dann asks Hu if they know Generic is town, and Hu then comes back and says they just found this out when working on a reads list. The timing doesn't feel natural, and then Dann uses this as an excuse to townread Hu Tao for pretty much the rest of the day

The below interaction feels like it could be forced as a way for Dannflor to explain why he might be playing differently. Dann says he's not trying to be obv town which he can then use as a way to alleviate all future suspicious based on his game play

Dannflor seems off for some reason. But not sure why.

Dannflor seems off for some reason. But not sure why.

I’m intentionally playing a little different from how I normally do

I’m trying for a high degree of read accuracy rather than making myself obv town

[Black]

Idk, it kinda just feels like they might be scum together trying to create ways to artificially townread each other

[Black]

Hu Tao how many games have you played with Dann?

[Black]

I think the way Hu Tao joined the Afrayed wagon was pretty scummy. They spent all day unsure on Afrayed while actively pushing bluebug, BlackStar, and Andante and calling them likely scum. Then the wagon builds on Afrayed and suddenly they're cool with voting a relatively null slot? The reason in the bottom quote is that they don't like Afrayed's posts more than others, but I'm having a hard time believing Hu disliked his posts more than their top 3 scumreads

Blackstar I think flips scum here and should be the vote

charles is the definition of low hanging fruit

Agreed. Which makes me further think Star is scum

BlackStar/brightbluebug/Afrayed Knott?

I agree on the first at least. Not sure on the last 2

More everyone talks, the more I want Blackstar gone

Interesting- why?

He just seems the most scummy.

Sure I can do this

VOTE: afrayed

Sure I can do this

VOTE: afrayed

You've said this whole game that you weren't sure about him being scum, so why are you so ready to lim him now?

Because I don't like their posts as much as others

[Black]

Annie why are Dann and Hu Tao your biggest townreads?

[Black]

black are you thinking the scum team is me / hu tao / animatedwiz

I considered it but I don't think so. I feel like I'm wrong somewhere

[Black]

I can't read 850 before coffee. I tried

[Black]

brightbluebug, gumiguy, and bob3141

there's genuinely no way that is the entire team... I'd only believe it if I saw it

Why is this so hard to believe?

[Black]

This kinda pinged me about Bob too. When I asked him about he he said this is just how he plays and it isn't alignment indicative. I never got the chance to look back on his previous games to confirm that though

[Black]

Andante feels way too confident in what she is saying lol

Maybe that's just a playstyle clash

[Black]

i would be more worried about andante if she wasn't taking super aggro confident stances

Is she not able to replicate this in her scum game or something?

[Black]

What resistance?

[Black]

I really don't like Bob's posts on page 37. Also I'm a she

[Black]

I really am townreading you, Andante, but I feel like you’re barking up the wrong tree again. Sure, Bob had some scummy stuff going on at the end of D1, but I don’t feel like the evidence is as damming for him as it is for other people.

Are we still going to ignore that fact that multiple people flip-flopped on their votes immediately on D2? I feel like Blackstar is still the better elimination here due to both that and D1.

VOTE: Blackstar

This feels bad. Bob/Annie is a possible pair

[Black]

blackstar is town

read his reevaluation on charles while he was on the chopping block,

read him going after hu tao while he was on the chopping block

read his self vote and surrounding posts

the slot is just town

I agree with this

[Black]

Hu Tao clear town

Elaborate on this please

[Black]

Answer 979 first and then maybe I'll tell you

[Black]

The fuck? Are you going to explain why Hu Tao is obv town or not?

[Black]

i take my town read on black back.

The fact they have jumped on a manner os speak makes me feel liek they are role fishing

?????

[Black]

VOTE: Bob

[Black]

Jesus Christ Bob what the hell. You're the only one here that read that as pressuring you to claim. I just thought you were trending towards scum and I already think Hu Tao is fairly scummy so of course I'm going to question you on a read that I don't understand at all

There's a world where this is fake but I think we can cross that bridge later

UNVOTE:

[Black]

I'm still pretty convinced Merlyn is town but I'm not opposed to bug/Gumi

Gumi's iso gives us slightly more info on a flip

VOTE: Gumiguy

[Black]

they out right asked if i had a result

No the fuck I didn't

[Black]

Then you real should of taken the hint by my response were im saying back off your making it obvous im a PR

Your hint was fucking garbage. Don't blame me for your short fuse. You couldn't keep it in your pants, that's not my fault

[Black]

ive had enough im a cop varient.

thank black for outing me if im town

im a pt cop so any hoods might as well claim

had to visit someone i was sure wasnt in pt

anyway im mach 2 shot pt cop so eitehr way im dead tonight

I don't really like this slow trickle of information but I don't think we should fade bob today

[Black]

they out right asked if i had a result

No the fuck I didn't

Then in future dont direct quote like that. When you only quote a crumb its going to be prety jarring to a PR

I have no idea what you're talking about and I will continue to direct quote whenever I feel like addressing someone

[Black]

What does macho do again?

[Black]

Yeah seems believable enough

[Black]

bob claimed an inno on hu tao

and then there is you

and then bob is one

And I protted Black.

You did what to me?

[Black]

Ohhh protected me. I'm not hip with the lingo

Ok so who would want me dead N1? Hmmm

[Black]

I think Merlyn's posts have a townie vibe. So no, I don't really have anything substantial. I'm not comfortable clearing her on vibes and Shrek replacing out anymore. She's the first person I thought of when trying to figure out who would want me dead

I also think Gumi is a candidate. It felt like he froze up after I pushed him early D1 and never really got a chance to get his footing

[Black]

I'll have to think on this more

[Black]

VOTE: bob

If Bob is town this read reversal from bug feels even worse

[Black]

yall are the ones refusing to talk to me, ignoring anything I do say, I bring up legit points and you're like "VOTE ANDANTE"

yeah, this is town Andante

VOTE: Hu Tao

What is the correlation of voting me?

none. I don't like the way you got on the wagon yesterday

Why do you have an issue with the way Hu Tao got on the wagon but not the way I got on?

[Black]

Thats a sizeable pool of confirmed townies

P: the reasons I protected you had nothing to do with your reads. reads can be _a_ reason to kill somebody, but just 1 of many.

As much as I do believe that Black is town, I don’t think we can say for certain that your night action stopped the kill—there might be a Roleblocker or Rolestopper, or even a Jailor or something. Could even be that there wasn’t an NK attempt (though honestly, I don’t think there’s an actual reason to avoid NKing N1 as far as I can think of).

Funny you say this because while I agree with you, I also think you're someone that might have wanted me dead N1. I think your attempt to sow doubt here could be scum motivated

[Black]

Thats a sizeable pool of confirmed townies

P: the reasons I protected you had nothing to do with your reads. reads can be _a_ reason to kill somebody, but just 1 of many.

As much as I do believe that Black is town, I don’t think we can say for certain that your night action stopped the kill—there might be a Roleblocker or Rolestopper, or even a Jailor or something. Could even be that there wasn’t an NK attempt (though honestly, I don’t think there’s an actual reason to avoid NKing N1 as far as I can think of).

Funny you say this because while I agree with you, I also think you're someone that might have wanted me dead N1. I think your attempt to sow doubt here could be scum motivated

I mean, I personally would think that someone who accepted being announced as confirmed innocent when they weren’t actually confirmed is far more suspicious that the person calling that out as incorrect.

If it's so suspicious then why do you still think I'm town?

[Black]

anyway my current solve

is 2 out of (meryl, ami and dann) and bug

I don't mind this solve tbh

[Black]

Throw in Gumi as the third

[Black]

Mmmmm

[Black]

Throw in Gumi as the third

If gumi is the third we should be going after the first

I'm voting them

[Black]

at risk of being accused of being partners with animated again

i don't think doubting the IC saying they got an inno on someone is very intuitive for scum

If we assume Annie is someone that wanted me dead N1, it would make sense for him to doubt the clear and call me scummy/suspicious D2. What's weird to me is that he's still calling me town through that

[Black]

Throw in Gumi as the third

If gumi is the third we should be going after the first

I'm voting them

I just realized I read this wrong. Oops

[Black]

In terms of the first group of quotes, did you not say you came to the same conclusion as Dann?

I did. What does that have to do with anything? If you two planned that out then the goal was to get other people to believe it was a townslip, and it worked

[Black]

Last game I was in with him his posting was different. He clarified after that he was trying a different playstyle this game

Idk, it kinda just feels like they might be scum together trying to create ways to artificially townread each other

I don't townread Dann. In fact I said he was acting differently than what he did when he was town before.

This sure seems to me that you were completely fine with his explanation

[Black]

@mod: I will be V/LA until late Monday/early Tuesday

[Black]

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

[Black]

If I can't catch up today I'll be back tomorrow morning

[Black]

there's so much you could pop in with... but like we barely have any posts for d2 here, that's super easy to notice.. I hate the "If I can't catch up" it implies a lot happened in the game, why not just say "sorry I'm busy today, might not catch up till tomorrow" but the "if I can't catch up" feels wolfy

I have no clue how many posts were made or what kind of content happened. Chill out lol

[Black]

I don't like 1160...

You're insufferable

[Black]

Looks like Mrelyn or Brightbluebug is a wolf.

???

[Black]

Yooo Wiz is here. You can finally see a Town game of mine ahaha

Are you familiar with Annie? I'm wondering what you think of his slot

[Black]

I see two worlds here. One where the scum team is Bob/Hu Tao/x and they have this elaborate plan to clear themselves and hope that nothing falls apart

The other involves Bob/Hu Tao being innocent. I think this is probably more likely because with the "elaborate plan", one mistake or wrong move could make the whole card tower come crumbling down. I don't think the risk is worth it

Idk I kinda just wanna sheep pisskop here because I feel like my reads are getting impacted by random paranoia and tin foil theories lol

VOTE: BlackStar for now

[Black]

I'm sorry

[Black]

it's just a total 180 i feel like from how i expect you to be approaching this game as town and i do not understand the mindset shift from you here

are you demotivated or something?

Kinda yeah

[Black]

It happens to me sometimes when I don't have a lot of time to play. I haven't gotten the chance to really dig in and look at the implications of it all so you get lazy solving for now

[Black]

Black seems scummy here

Why do you think Merlyn and bluebug might be wolves?

[Black]

VOTE: gob

[Black]

it looked like both wagons had resistance against each other (3-2 votes) so I called it out. I already explained this btw.

Why does this suggest one of them is scum? Have you never seen two competing town wagons before or something?

[Black]

JV is probably town

VOTE: BlackStar

I don't like the way BlackStar is engaging with the game. Feels kinda sideliney. I don't really like his assessment of the game state in 1126. In particular where did his SR of Dannflor go and why is Dann suddenly not in his PoE?

[Black]

I thought your predecessor was town and your entrance and catch up has only solidified that for me. I think you're legitimately trying to solve the game

[Black]

I don't think your reasons for town!Dann are good enough to remove him from your PoE all together. It doesn't really feel believable. To me it seems like you both scumread each other to distance and then came up with ways to remove each other from your PoEs

If he was scum, there wouldn't be any reason to back off after my self-vote

I can think of a couple reasons he would do that as scum if you're town. But he would have more reason to back off if you're both scum

[Black]

I think Dann tried to back off of BlackStar in a believable way but there's some inconsistencies there. I'll explain more when I get to a computer

[Black]

I know that I’m town, so I’m not sure what to tell you

Why is your first thought here "I need to reiterate I'm town" instead of wondering why scum!Dann would back off of town!you? You said there wouldn't be any reason for him to do that as scum. I'm saying there are a couple reasons he would, but you're not questioning that. Is that something you actually believe? I don't get the vibe that you're actually trying to sort Dannflor this game

[Black]

I think Dann's reaction to my BlackStar vote on Monday makes more sense if those two are partnered. His immediate reaction was to discredit my position and call me slimy for it. I think scum would benefit from throwing doubt on my soft clear there. It acts as a way to try and halt the BlackStar wagon in it's tracks. And yeah I totally think Dannflor would be involved in an attempt to NK me. I was one of the few people suspecting him D1

[Black]

I think it’s fucking ridiculous to think I would be the primary push against scum buddy Blackstar for most of D1 and then decide an AtE self vote was the best moment to switch to a hard town read rather than just the nail in the coffin

This mixture of WIFOM and AtE doesn't feel good

I don't think it's ridiculous at all to assume the plan changed once the BlackStar wagon gained real traction. I think saving your buddy instead of hard bussing him could be worth it if you make it believable enough

[Black]

I was the one who built the blackstar wagon !!

Do you think this means you can't be partnered?

[Black]

like actually why does it make any sense for blackstar to get upset and selfvote if it was a planned distancing thing

The self vote may have been a genuine frustration moment for him. I don't think your distancing plan included that

[Black]

Personally it feels like BlackStar is frozen and doesn't know how to respond to this so he's letting daddy Dannflor take the reigns for a bit

[Black]

I think bug can very easily flip scum but it's not as high confidence as I would like and

the flip gives us less information than Blackstar

Good point

VOTE: Blackstar

That should be E-2, right?

so are you just giving up or...

If me dying helps the town to come together and narrow down who the scum team is, then maybe it's a valid option. I've pushed Wiz and Charles but I've started to doubt my scum reads of them a little bit. I think Afrayed is town and the arguments for Bug haven't been that strong. Sof if we HAVE to lim someone, I guess I'm a decent choice because it would force you all to analyze everyone's reasons for joining the wagon. I would prefer to stay alive though

like actually you think that reads as SvS?

at best I can see it being Blackstar using AtE to try to get votes off of him, but it's directed at *me*, like he's trying to convince *me* to stop voting him

Yes that absolutely could be theater lmao. And now you're using it to say you can't be partnered. Convenient

[Black]

merlyn literally just disappeared because she couldn't stand the thought of their primary push being conf town

but that's not how town looks at or approaches the game, town doesn't have that narrow of a view

and there is nothing to indicate that merlyn's scum read of hu tao was SO STRONG that she her whole worldview was crumbling and she had to reread the entire game

instead, it's much more likely that her primary push as scum was suddenly conf towned, she started receiving pressure, and she froze because she didn't have an easy in to figure out where she should push next

I think a townie would immediately start solving and having thoughts based on the new information

Merlyn's activity level is not alignment indicative and it never has been

[Black]

I really don’t see Dann as scum, y’all. BlackStar, of course I do, but Dann’s been in my top 3 townreads all game.

I really don’t see the backing off of the game’s first self-vote as scummy—even I, probably the most avid scumreader of BlackStar here, admitted that it made me wary to vote for him when it happened. There are definitely better ways for Dann to hop off that wagon if it really was scum vs scum, and he didn’t take any of those options.

Yeah I'm thinking BlackStar flips scum regardless of Dann's alignment

[Black]

like actually why does it make any sense for blackstar to get upset and selfvote if it was a planned distancing thing

The self vote may have been a genuine frustration moment for him. I don't think your distancing plan included that

If him starting a wagon on me was part of a plan, then why would I feel any frustration?

If there was a plan then I don't think it would have included hard bussing and fading you. You had a decent amount of support throughout D1 (myself included) so I can see frustration brewing from that support falling apart and your wagon gaining real steam

[Black]

I know that saying this means nothing, but the only thing that frustrates me when I play is being scum read when I’m town. If I’m playing as scum then it doesn’t really bother me that much to be scum read because you’re right. Pushing for my lim as town instead of going after scum is what bothers me

Sure I'm down for some self-meta. Do you not get frustrated as scum? Do you have any completed scum games on the site?

[Black]

blackstar isn't scum

If you are town then you should be more confident in your own ability to solve the game. Instead you just want to save BlackStar who could still be scum even if you don't think he is? I don't understand this position

[Black]

yes blackstar has a completed scum game and i already read it to decide blackstar was more than likely town this game

I would like for BlackStar to respond to the question. I directed it toward him for a reason

[Black]

blackstar isn't scum

If you are town then you should be more confident in your own ability to solve the game. Instead you just want to save BlackStar who could still be scum even if you don't think he is? I don't understand this position

what the hell are you saying

of course I am confident in my ability to solve the game

my solve does not include blackstar who I have sorted as town!!

I'm saying you should be MORE confident in YOUR ability to solve the game over BlackStar's. Town doesn't offer to sacrifice themselves in this situation

[Black]

I have been spamming my solve for like 10 pages and people aren't listening to me I don't know what you expect from me but frustration

Your solve are two LHF players and an inactive Merlyn. Probably the easiest thing for scum to push in this game state

[Black]

I have been spamming my solve for like 10 pages and people aren't listening to me I don't know what you expect from me but frustration

Your solve are two LHF players and an inactive Merlyn. Probably the easiest thing for scum to push in this game state

vote me

Lemme fade your buddy first

[Black]

I'm kinda getting cold feet on blackstar

Dann made this post after bob's 510 which put BlackStar at e-2. This feels like Dann is trying to diffuse the wagon he started. I don't think he thought the BlackStar wagon would gain this much traction and he decided it was time to abandon ship

Bob unvotes BlackStar in 530 and then Merlyn unvotes him in 542. At this point Wiz is the leading wagon at 4 votes and Blackstar is down to 3. Wiz votes BlackStar in 558 to tie the wagons up, and that's when Dannflor decides to hop off. He votes for bug in 576

Dannflor comes back to the BlackStar wagon in 635/636 and says maybe he was wrong to get cold feet on BlackStar, but doesn't elaborate. He didn't elaborate about getting the cold feet either. It just feels weird that Dann sometimes provides almost too much information and insight into what he's thinking, and then others he's extremely vague. I think there's an agenda here

This is where BlackStar self-votes (640). Bob warns that he might hammer BlackStar over the self-vote. Dannflor unvotes in 649:

UNVOTE:

meh

This indecisiveness around BlackStar feels super inconsistent, and not in a townie way. Dann later said that it wasn't the self-vote that made him TR BlackStar here, but what he did after, which was scumreading Hu Tao in 647. I don't find this very believable. Dann then goes into this thing about having too many town reads (652) which doesn't feel like a real thought, and then he completely envelops himself in the town!BlackStar world by theorizing about Wiz/BS tvt in 654 and then listing BlackStar as one of his most confident townreads in 659. This shift doesn't feel believable at all and the reasons that support the shift feel weak and forced, like BlackStar changing his read on Charles at the beginning of the game? Come on. Dann even mentions this on the tail end of 662 and I feel like he included this because he's self conscious about how his BlackStar flip flop looks and needed to explain it more

[Black]

VC 2.13

brightbluebug

(3):

BlackStar

, Andante, bob3141

Merlyn

(2): AnimatedWiz,

gob

gob

(2):

Dannflor

, Black

BlackStar

(1): pisskop

Black

(1): Hu Tao

bob3141

(1):

brightbluebug

Not Voting

(2): JacksonVirgo,

Merlyn

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to smack a player really hard in the nose. Day 2 ends in (expired on 2023-10-08 22:15:00).

mod notes: I lacking syntax

All my current PoE is highlighted here. They're split evenly, no two are voting together.

Yeah I just noticed Dann/BlackStar on competing wagons a lot during D1

[Black]

BlackStar do you have an updated readslist you wouldn't mind sharing?

[Black]

yes blackstar has a completed scum game and i already read it to decide blackstar was more than likely town this game

Which one did you read and what made you think he's not scum here?

[Black]

I don't like that post

"You feel kinda townie but you're pushing me, so you're null"

Like do you only think scum would push you or something?

[Black]

I’m just saying that it would be ridiculous to blindly put him down as town and ignore the fact that he’s trying to get rid of me. I never said that only scum would push me

I don't think it's ridiculous to put someone you get town vibes from in your "town lean" pile. What I do find ridiculous is

not

doing that because your town lean is pushing you. You're acting like he's scummy just for pushing you, as if you don't think a townie would push you. But you think I'm town and I'm pushing you, so what do you really believe?

[Black]

Do you think JV pushing you is scummy or not?

[Black]

But you said he feels townie. So if you're not sure if him pushing you is alignment indicative, wouldn't you still lean town there? Would you have listed him as a town lean if he were pushing Wiz instead of you?

[Black]

Black what's your read on Dann

Also do you consider yourself experienced

I think Dann might be scum. It's not a strong read and there's some conf bias going on but I think he has an agenda

I'm not very experienced. I played a few games over a decade ago but I've only been playing seriously since January

[Black]

Oops. Didn't get the memo, my b

[Black]

But you said he feels townie. So if you're not sure if him pushing you is alignment indicative, wouldn't you still lean town there? Would you have listed him as a town lean if he were pushing Wiz instead of you?

It would depend on why he was pushing Wiz

Ok so what is it about his push on you that makes you think there's ill intent here?

[Black]

Was asking BlackStar, I hate that you're both Black

Also just realised this sounds really bad in isolation

[Black]

But you said he feels townie. So if you're not sure if him pushing you is alignment indicative, wouldn't you still lean town there? Would you have listed him as a town lean if he were pushing Wiz instead of you?

It would depend on why he was pushing Wiz

Ok so what is it about his push on you that makes you think there's ill intent here?

You keep acting as if I’m saying that he’s scummy. All that I’ve said is that I don’t know if there’s ill intent or not. I’d appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth

Sorry for the miscommunication. Hopefully you can understand how I'm reading your replies here. JV has pinged you as town, but he's in your null category because you're not sure if his push on you is scummy or not. When I asked you if JV pushing Wiz would've caused you to list JV as a town lean, you said that would depend on why JV was pushing Wiz. So that implies that you think there is an issue with why JV is pushing you. What is it about JV's push that makes you think it could be scum motivated?

[Black]

I think BlackStar is just caught scum that can't keep his fake reads straight

I think scum want to avoid townreading too many people, and I think town are way less likely to let their read on a player be effected by whether or not that player is pushing them. I don't think it makes sense for BlackStar to null read JV just because they are pushing him. I think JV pushing BlackStar is more likely to make BlackStar consider JV a threat if BlackStar is scum, which explains why BlackStar is so reluctant to TR him

[Black]

I just don't think it makes sense for a town player to be wary of a player

solely

because they are being pushed by them. BlackStar said JV felt townie in his questioning. BlackStar keeps saying "I know I'm town" but if JV is town then he doesn't know that. Town!BlackStar shouldn't feel threatened by JV here

[Black]

I think town are way less likely to let their read on a player be effected by whether or not that player is pushing them.

do you actually believe this?

Absolutely. If someone is pushing me and they seem townie in their questioning and thought process, why would them pushing me make me think they're scummy?

[Black]

Dann can you answer 1421

[Black]

I'd be down to fade BlackStar or Dannflor. I'm not actually sure who the 3rd would be in that group

[Black]

It could be someone like bug or gop. Maybe Wiz. Idk

[Black]

Dann can you answer 1421

I think it was this one

viewtopic.php?t=71628

I thought his reactions to people sussing him were much more OMGUSing and faux anger than they are in this game

You think it was that one? How do you not know exactly which game you looked over?

That's actually the game I looked at too. I noticed he uses AtE as scum:

I'm getting tempted to replace out because I don't have any motivation to play

I really don't want to play anymore

I also noticed he's very aware of the self-voting scum strategy:

When? I didn't twist reality. You threatened to self vote. That's an anti town tactic. And it's a well known move of desperate scum.

He's literally falling back on the oldest scum bluff in the book now lol. He thinks that if he puts himself at L-1 then nobody will lynch him because they can't see scum doing that

I haven't had a chance to look over his town games to see if there's anything here yet

[Black]

I still think Merlyn is probably town. I don't think she really freezes up as scum, or at least she didn't in a newbie game we played together. She got into arguments and adjusted her reads as she needed to. She just feels inactive here or not invested

[Black]

iv only jusst really noticed how little gum did day one. interaction with 1-2 two player and 2 read lists

VOTE: Gob

We get no information from a Gumi/gob flip. BlackStar is a better vote imo

[Black]

Your confidence in those 3 players flipping scum feels unnatural and fake. I think you have to feign that confidence if you are scum tbh